For Pastors
Vic Francis combines his background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world.
For Pastors aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives.
For Pastors
Doing Well
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode, Vic is joined by Fran Francis and Glenn Melville, looking at what pastors need to do to "do well" in their lives, marriages and ministries.
For further exploration, you can read Glenn's PhD research here or at http://hdl.handle.net/10292/15555; and access Hagberg and Guelich's spiritual life inventory here or at http://www.janethagberg.com/uploads/3/9/3/4/39346357/spiritual_life_inventory_120910.pdf.
For more information on Vic and Solace, check out our website at solace.org.nz, or search us on Facebook or Instagram. And if you would like to support this podcast, please become a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/forpastors
PS: A big thanks to Joel Francis, for his genius in guiding his father towards getting this podcast out. Couldn't have done it without you!
Kia ora, i'm Vic Francis and I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. This For Pastors podcast aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives. This week's podcast looks at doing well. How can pastors keep their faith, their marriages, their families alive and thriving among the rigours of pastoral life and ministry? Today I am joined by Glenn Melville and Fran Francis. Two people well qualified in this critical subject of doing well. Glenn, Fran, welcome to the For Pastors podcast.
Fran FrancisKia ora. Thank you.
Glenn MelvilleKia ora.
Vic FrancisIt's lovely to have you here. Glenn, would you introduce yourself, tell us who you are, where you're from and maybe what you bring to this conversation.
Glenn MelvilleYeah. Thanks Vic, it's great to be here today to join you on this podcast on a subject I'm very passionate about. So I'm currently living in Christchurch. I grew up in West Auckland, so a born and bred Westy. But, now slowly moving into becoming a Cantabrian, I guess.
Vic FrancisThe Mainland.
Glenn MelvilleThe Mainland. Yeah. I'm married to Kelly. We've been married for 30 years and have three amazing daughters, a ge 20, 23 and 25. And I'm currently the director for the Carey Centre for Lifelong Learning at Carey Baptist College in Auckland. So, I do a bit of commuting for my role. And I get to spend my days pursuing my passion to support Christian leaders and churches in ministry. And so I produce webinars and workshops and training seminars and the occasional podcast myself. I also look after the Baptist registration system for, for pastors and church leaders and provide some training for professional supervisors.
Vic FrancisWell, that's very comprehensive and, you've done some study and we'll get onto that in a minute that will be very helpful for us today. But welcome, it's lovely to have you here and,
Glenn Melvilleuh,
Vic Francisto have your expertise in this podcast. Fran, maybe, uh, we'll go over to you. Who are you married to, by the way? And, uh, what do you bring to this conversation?
Fran FrancisWell, full disclosure, married to the podcaster. Oh, that's so, where am I right now? Just down the hallway from him.
Vic FrancisYes, yes, yes, yes. New Zealand's a small country. Our house is a small house.
Fran FrancisYeah. And the New Zealand Christian community is small and it just got a whole lot smaller. And some nice overlap, I think too, with Glenn's areas of passion and specialty. I think for me, the thing that spins my wheels is spiritual formation. And within that, of course, there is a place of supervision and caring for what's going on in a person's life. And also in that deeper part of themselves that the rest of the world doesn't see, you know, the soul. Fundamentally I'm a head person. Everything goes on in my head, it's very busy in there. But, uh, alongside of that I'm a noticer, I think, which is everything from noticing how the sunlight is landing on the leaf of the plant opposite me to how a place makes me feel. I, I think churches need that sensibility, sort of the who, what and how, I guess, of our Christian past really matters to me because the seeds and fruit of the present and the future lie there. So I like to bring those in.
Vic FrancisVery much looking forward to having some of those experiences and those noticings, if I can use that word, as we go on today. Glenn, maybe we'll go to you first in terms of building the story. I wanna take you into your area of expertise that's relevant to this in particular because you've done your PhD on pastoral health. And so can you tell us what was your doctoral work and from there, I guess, what were your key findings?
Glenn MelvilleYeah. Thanks Vic. I was a Baptist pastor for a number of years. Yep. And nothing really quite prepared me for, um, some of the stresses and emotional demands of pastoral ministry. And that got me thinking, am I the only one who's experiencing these things? And I began talking to others and found out they had similar experiences and then really felt called to go and do a PhD looking at the emotional wellbeing of pastors. Yes. And I particularly wanted to have a look at some of the causes, both positive and negative, that influenced their emotional wellbeing and, uh, really to come up with something very practical applied out of it, which was to design a course to help pastors improve their emotional wellbeing. So I did a national survey and I also did in-depth interviews with 17 pastors.
Vic Francis17. Wow.
Glenn MelvilleOver 200,000 words of interview, which I had to work my way through and pull out some of the key themes.
Vic FrancisThat's incredible. And did you have conclusions that could be summarised?
Glenn MelvilleYeah, so I, I basically identified seven key areas t hat were crucial for, for pastors to work through that both positively and negatively impacted their wellbeing.
Vic FrancisTell us what they are.
Glenn MelvilleRelationship with God. I mean, it would be no surprise that pastors experienced many positive benefits in their relationship with God. Positive emotions like joy and comfort and knowing God was in control. And hearing God's voice to give them different perspective on situations. So that's a critical area. Social relationships. Yeah. So it just affirmed a lot of the research that I had read that the number of close and supportive relationships in a pastor's life really make a huge difference for their wellbeing. Family, friends, congregation, just having some people that just see them as their genuine friendship. Not just what they can get from the pastor. Yeah. And that sense of being part of a community and having some identity within that community, um, was really important as well. Looked at pastoral care. Yeah. And there's just so much need t oday in, in our congregations and communities. O ften pastors are the first point of call for mental health issues and, just yeah, how pastors navigated that area h ad an impact on their wellbeing, whether they took on too much responsibility trying to solve everyone's problems or, whether they had support around them to help support others, whether they engaged in their own self-care and things like that made a difference. E xternal, uh, professional supervision. Mm-hmm. Which Fran will know all about, is another very key area to help them with their ongoing wellbeing. I also looked at the pastoral role as a calling. Hmm. And how that can have positive and negative sides to it, e specially if that calling is tied into internal idealistic expectations of what they think they're gonna achieve and doing the role and the impact they're gonna have. I think there's this gap between idealism and reality that they have to navigate.
Fran FrancisAnd it makes it hard to quit, right?
Glenn MelvilleYeah. That's right. Definitely. And the other two were managing what I call stakeholder expectations, I mean, there's so many people that have a stake in the life of the church, from the elders to the congregation to f amily, to people in the community. And everyone has an expectation of what they think the pastor should do and what they should achieve. And that can really tap into, um, some self-esteem issues for a pastor and if they're performance driven that can lead to workaholism. Yeah. Trying to maintain an image that they're always busy or looking for validation and all those kind of things. So how pastors navigated that was was another key area. Mm-hmm. And then the final area was just an emotional intelligence. So, that ability to be able to name their own emotions and recognise them, to communicate them well, empathise with others, e ven being able to influence other people's emotions in different situations. Being able to self-regulate, that all made a difference as well in, in pastoral ministry. So that's just a real brief, little insight.
Vic FrancisAnd I'm thinking, Glenn, those are both the problems and the solutions. These are the areas maybe that would suck us from doing well if we neglect them or we are not properly developing in them, but they're also the areas that we could concentrate on in the sense of wanting and trying to do well.
Glenn MelvilleYeah, absolutely. Every one of these areas had a very positive aspect to it that would contribute to wellbeing. And then it also had another aspect that could be detrimental to wellbeing that needed to be navigated.
Vic FrancisVery important and we'll explore those as we continue. Fran, maybe we'll come over to you. You have been a pastor. You are the wife of a pastor, we've established. You are also a spiritual director and a supervisor of a growing number of pastors. What do you see as some of the keys to doing well, things that really strike you as being significant in this area?
Fran FrancisWell, the overlap with the kinds of things that surfaced in Glenn's research and, and why wouldn't they surface, 'cause he's interviewing around this same area, you know, reaching into, not exactly the ancient church, but maybe the Middle Ages, where you've got Teresa of Avila, people like John Calvin saying, know yourself. Know yourself. And so that self-awareness part, which is where emotional intelligence lies, where what's going on in our relationship with God lies, to know not just your top five strengths, but also know what's in the basement and, Enneagram, to not just know your virtue, but also to know your vice, and, and Myers Briggs to know your shadow. Those are the kinds of areas that will help make us wise and resilient, I think, as we come to grips with those things and any one of our great spiritual teachers in our faith basically comes to this conclusion that there's no deep knowing of God without deep knowing of self and no deep knowing of self without deep knowing of God. I remember, um, reading about Henri Nouwen, and that his spiritual director challenged him to think about, who is this God to whom I pray? And who am I who prays to this God? And that's an ongoing, cyclical pair of questions through life. Um, which brings me to, you know, the, the doing well part is being okay with the fact that our relationship with God will change over the years and we will change. So who, who is God revealed to me now? And that will necessarily be different at the very beginning of our spiritual walk, and that can be very disconcerting and unsettling. And this is where spiritual direction comes in, I think more so than supervision, because supervision focuses necessarily more on our work, whereas spiritual direction really tends to what's happening in the relationship with God, what's going on there? So care of a pastor's soul seems to me to be a very important thing to do in terms of looking at what's changing there. And the emotional intelligence comes in there too because we have to notice what's happening and we also need to reflect on it, which takes courage.
Vic FrancisIt's funny that you say that. I've been a pastor for over 30 years and I'm chuckling to myself and saying, A pastor, for goodness sake, surely they take care of their own souls Surely if anybody's gonna do it, a pastor will. And yet my hunch is that's not always the case.
Fran FrancisIf my practice is anything to go by, there are way more congregants in spiritual direction than there are pastors.
Vic FrancisOh, that's killing. Yeah.
Glenn MelvilleYeah, I fully, fully agree, resonate with what you have to say there, Fran. And I think a key distinctive for pastors who do experience greater wellbeing in ministry is that willingness to do the work, to know themselves.
Fran FrancisThat's right. That openness is critical, isn't it?
Glenn MelvilleTime and energy, right, and, and can often be so, uh, busy attending to everything that could demand their time in pastoral ministry b ut those who, who know that it's critical to take that time out, to do that work. Mm-hmm.
Vic FrancisAnd Glenn, if I'm right, yes, your 17 were pastors who were doing quite well. You worked with people who had worked through some things?
Glenn MelvilleThat's right. So part of my recruitment criteria were pastors who had experienced a period of poor wellbeing, but had managed to navigate through it. Right. Yeah. Yeah, because I really wanted to find out, well how did they navigate through it? Exactly. Yeah. What, what were the keys to that? But even in saying that some of them w ould freely admit, I think, that they hadn't done the work, yeah, until a situation came up in pastoral ministry that they did not have the level of resources to cope with, and that pushed them over the edge and forced them to actually have to do some of this work.
Fran FrancisWe might call that The Wall.
Vic FrancisHitting the wall. I think we're gonna talk about the wall as we move into another part of our session. Um, Fran, is there anything else as we finish off summarising some of the issues that we're talking about that you would like to bring?
Fran FrancisYeah, I guess there's a couple of things. One is believing the lie that you are indispensable, but you know, this relates to doing the mahi, but is also not mahi, it's also resting. Taking time or being made to by your contract to take holiday, to have time to be outta the public gaze. I love the illustration of the Paris Opera House, um, because there 22,000 square metres of floor space of the Paris Opera House are dedicated to behind the scenes and backstage, and only two and a half thousand metres is the performance space. So getting that ratio of public and private, um, nicely balanced, so important.
Vic FrancisSo that, so that's a ratio of 10 to one.
Fran FrancisYeah, so we have to think about backstage and behind the scenes, because pastoring can be weirdly performative. And so prioritising getting out of the public gaze and just allowing ourselves to be okay in the loving gaze of God. It sounds easy, but it's very difficult. Everything seems to conspire against it. But if I could say, you know, prioritise that behind the scenes time, that seems to be a key to wellbeing because it fosters the relationship with God. It fosters relationship with family, friends, whatever that might be. It fosters space for new ideas. Not a retreat that's about preparing sermons, but a retreat that is just letting myself be loved. And if our vestries and boards of elders and, um, those who are responsible for us as leaders can value that, it makes it hugely more achievable than a pastor trying to advocate for that off their own bat. That's kind of hard, I think. And, um, the German poet Rainer Maria Rilke, whose wisdom about being patient with all that's unsolved in your heart and trying to love the questions and let yourself live with them, that it's okay to have doubts, it's okay to be lonely. Some of the hard things that happen in pastoral life that we weren't expecting, you know, by sitting with the questions and having a skilled listener alongside can allow us to navigate that difficult terrain in a healthy way.
Vic FrancisWell, these are all important questions, which we're going to explore some more when we return to this very vital topic of doing well. So we will be right back.
Vic FrancisFran and Glenn, welcome back. We've started the discussion about doing well, and now we have a chance perhaps to go a little deeper, and I've been thinking, Fran, about this pastoring game. It's unique, isn't it? What's so different about it that's relevant to this conversation?
Fran FrancisWell, what comes to mind for me, and I'm sure there'll be other things that perhaps sit in that unique area for others, but primarily it's a calling. A person hears God say, in some way, this is what I want you to do with your life. The healthiest outworking of that, it, it will be affirmed by others. It's not just one person saying, oh, I'm called to this. It should resonate with others as well. And as we touched on before, that calling part is a bit tricky because it can make it difficult to leave. Um, or if it's sort of begins to move into an unhealthy outworking, uh, in our own lives, bit of a power trip or something. Um. We also are managing perhaps the expectations of what God requires of us, is inviting us to. So we need to pay careful attention to that in terms of continuing to have a healthy image of God and our place in the whole scheme of things. So I'd say an ongoing discerning of the call can be a really useful practice just to reflect periodically, personally and with trusted people, your spiritual director, supervisor, others, you know, just to say, I'm, I'm paying attention to my call again and listening again. And that sometimes there'll be a change and an invitation to move with that change. And so you could move with that change with a sense of freedom and peace. Um, that's a great thing if you can come to that place.
Vic FrancisMm-hmm. That's that sense of call, that's important. Yeah. Yeah.
Fran FrancisYeah, a sense of call. It's counter-cultural. You have to live with the oddness of it, you know, which in today's society it's a bit tricky, but you know, pastoral ministry is about care of souls. No other job is explicitly about helping souls grow, and we're embodied spirits, so I'm not negating the physical aspects or social justice and those kinds of vital parts of our expression of faith. But helping people tend their souls often get sidelined by other stuff such as admin. So, you know, that sense of helping people tend to their soul also means pastors need to know how to tend to their own soul, what that even means to do that. Then something else, you know, just lastly, that I think is unique to pastoral ministry, for people in the Protestant and evangelical world, is that the whole family is somehow intertwined in the ministry, which can be both wonderful and problematic. So I think that's a very unique factor and that the work flows into the home and back out again and, and to be honest, that can be difficult to manage sometimes.
Vic FrancisYes. It's very much, isn't it? Our son is a psychotherapist. He would never think of seeing one of his clients socially the day after he's had a, a big meeting with them.
Fran FrancisThey don't even know where he lives.
Vic FrancisExactly. As a pastor, we do that on a regular basis. Uh, it is interesting. Glenn, the uniqueness of pastoring and, um, I'm interested in the toll that it takes on a pastor over time. We talked earlier about h itting walls and, and I'm interested in your study and how that happened, but any thoughts on the uniqueness of pastoring?
Glenn MelvilleYeah, yeah, absolutely. I was gonna pick up on Fran's last comment about that complexity of the family involvement in church. And one of the pastors I interviewed said to me that pastoral ministry is this unique, complex social situation where there's this overlap of their workplace, their place of socialising and their family. And you can imagine that if there is a conflict or a criticism that could be involving all three of those aspects, it can be deeply personal. And difficult to navigate and raise feelings of isolation and who do I confide in 'cause my friends were involved in this conflict and maybe my family and so on. Mm-hmm. So I think that's unique.
Fran FrancisAnd if there's some family breakdown, you know, if there are difficulties with children or in the marriage, it can be hard to attend to those things honestly, uh, without shame. So it does have all those additional things, doesn't it?
Glenn MelvilleYeah, that's right. The other thing about the amount of hats that pastors are expected to wear, you know, all the different roles. Um, we want you to be a, a brilliant preacher and a great teacher, and also do the administration and be an excellent staff manager and caregiver. And can you be a counsellor as well? And maybe take on the role of CEO as the church grows and, and be a local community leader. You know, it just goes on and on.
Fran FrancisAnd keep on top of the lawn and the gutters.
Glenn MelvilleThat's right.
Vic FrancisSo they hit the wall, don't they, Glenn? Your study shows us that pastors actually have to go through some things, they can't go round it, they can't go over it. What have you learned about that?
Glenn MelvilleWhat really surprised me is I asked all the 17 pastors I interviewed when was this period of low emotional wellbeing. And the majority gave me examples which were in the sort of four to six years of ministry range, which I thought was fascinating. It was almost like, even though some of them had done study and done some preparation work there's nothing like actually being on the job, and having some experience and perhaps you go through a bit of a honeymoon period of time in the first few years. But as you, I guess, get more responsibility and you face more of a variety of different situations in the life of the church, that is when the testing really comes, and this is where you learn, I guess, just how much formational work that you've done and how well you know yourself, because it's not until you're in that situation where you are tested and when your emotional buttons are being pushed, and when you are under that stress and pressure that you discover h ow much work have you done? How many resources do you have to navigate this? Yes. And sadly for the majority of pastors that I interviewed, they weren't prepared. Yeah. For those times. And so for many of them it was quite a difficult journey to navigate the wall through that time.
Vic FrancisWe're gonna be sharing a little later in the podcast about some really practical ideas of how we can navigate that. The conversation about the uniqueness of pastoring and even hitting the wall reminds me of a thing that's played out for me. So I was 31 when I started pastoring, and I've grown a lot in the 32 years since then, and I've grown in the public eye. And I love our church that they've allowed me to grow, but I also know that there have been times where it's been difficult for me, maybe I'm having a faith crisis or maybe I'm struggling with someone in the congregation and I've gotta get up there on Sunday and I've gotta do the thing. And uh, I, I think I've found some peace around that. It's not my job to project what's happening with me onto the others in the congregation. But it's still uncomfortable, b eing there in a space where you're not all joyful and triumphant or you're not all even settled in your understanding and faith of who God is right at the moment. And so it's a pretty tough call, I think, that we have along the way. Glenn, going back to your study, what do you think are some of the common threads among those who do well? I'm fascinated by your 17 and, all of whom have gone through the wall, but all of whom have at least in some way come out and done OK.
Glenn MelvilleI guess if I return to some of those seven areas I talked about. The pastor's relationship with God. It sounds very simple, but just actively engaging in spiritual practices where they're experiencing the presence of God and they're hearing God's voice. Mm-hmm. You wouldn't believe how hard that is for some pastors, I mean, when they were honest, and this is backed up widely in research. Yeah. Some pastors only pick up the Bible when they're preparing a sermon. They only pray when they're engaged in pastoral care for someone, they're so time poor and so few margins that they take very little time for themselves to practise spiritual disciplines.
Vic FrancisThis is, this is personal, inner work, isn't it? We've gotta preach a sermon, we've gotta pray for the sick or whatever it is that we do, but somehow we have to have our own walk with God that's happening.
Glenn MelvilleYeah, absolutely. And it can be hard, I guess, to keep that fresh over long, long periods of time when it can feel like you know, that sermon prep, et cetera, i t can feel like work.
Vic FrancisYeah. What are some of the other common threads? Uh, the going deep with God, obviously. What are some of the other things you saw?
Glenn MelvilleNavigating that social complexity of pastoral ministry, which we touched on, exercising some wisdom about knowing which relationships to really invest in in the church. Who are those people that could really meet a need for genuine friendship and support? I mean, they do exist with, within our churches. And, and who are those that you just have to recognise, look, this is not gonna be a reciprocal relationship, I'm mainly gonna be providing, you know, pastoral care support for this person. Often one thing is to pursue some friendships outside of the immediate congregational setting, where you feel like you're not having to wear that pastoral hat. Attending pastoral peer groups for support is another important one for people. Fran touched on the calling before, so, you know, reminding themselves of their calling and try to focus on aspects of ministry that give them a sense of fulfilling that calling. I mean, we know the tension between those administration tasks, which have to be done. I know for myself when I was pastoring, there can be a sense of retreating to some of those things because you can tick those off your list. Whereas spiritual growth of people, I mean, how do you
Vic FrancisYeah, it's not tangible.
Glenn MelvilleIt's absolutely true. I think other things, you know, like navigating conflict. Hmm. I was amazed at how many times conflict came up in the interviews with pastors. I mean, the majority of them, conflict goes hand in hand with pastoral ministry. It's just a reality. So do you have good conflict resolution processes in place? Have you done some work in this area a bout how to navigate that?
Vic FrancisAnd I wonder if that goes back too to your preparation. We are exposed when we haven't prepared for these things, when we're a little bit flippant and God will take care of it or I'll deal with it when it comes. We get exposed when it happens and not having those right systems in, and I guess that's peers and our movements and all of those things need to come to bear, don't they? So that we can be better ready when they happen.
Glenn MelvilleAbsolutely. And I think generally pastors would not expect some of the things to happen in the church t hat happen. You know, one pastor talked to me that there was a group of people within the church congregation that wanted to, to remove them. Oh, right. Yes. Yeah. And, and they called a members' meeting without notifying the pastor, you just wouldn't expect that to happen. You go in expecting, I guess, everybody's gonna be loving and
Vic FrancisYeah. We're all friends, here? Yeah.
Glenn MelvilleYeah, exactly. And so many of them are just blindsided by some of these things that go down just because of the nature of our humanity, which is on full display in our congregations.
Vic FrancisIt is. Fran, I'm thinking of the word resilience, which seems to be something that we need to be growing in. What are some of the ways that we can build the sort of resilience that we need for ministry?
Fran FrancisI had some time recently with Dr MaryKate Morse, who's work is through, through Portland Theological Seminary, and she works at the intersection of pastoral leadership and spiritual formation. So she knows the things that blindside us in our ministry. She, she's working with the gritty things, She says, and this is probably a bit shocking too for those who really advocate for supervision. She says what every pastor really needs is a spiritual director and a therapist. Um, and she's not joking about that. I thought that was fascinating. And this is drawn from her own life experience as a church planter and as a, um, professor of spiritual formation and leadership. Her stuff is so helpful to pastors, I think. So, I'd say that's part of resilience, too, because you can begin to bake it in. I would like to champion spiritual direction and as a supervisor I really value it. Spiritual direction asks a whole lot of different questions, and the focus is very much on what is going on in you, how are you praying, what happens in your prayer, that sort of stuff. It sounds kind of intrusive or even maybe a bit fluffy, but it's asked within a trusted relationship. So, you know, it should be okay. And I think I'd say building resilience involves reflection and the willingness to be asked questions which don't have intellectual answers. So the question, what is prayer like for you right now? It's an important question for a pastor. What name does God call you by? Where have you experienced grace in your day today? How is the balance of your life? How do you care for yourself? They're not questions that you can just spit out an intellectual answer. You have to kind of look up and, and look in and find that answer inside yourself somewhere else other than your intellect. What did you dream about last night? You know, the kinds of questions that will bring stuff to the surface. So resilience, I think, is supported by reflection, which is tied in with self-knowledge. And we've touched on this already, but Teresa of Avila, that brilliant woman, said, self-knowledge is so important, I don't care how high you've raised yourself up to the heavens, I never want you to cease cultivating it. So for her communities, that was very much tied in. You may be able to do really fancy pants praying, but if you don't know how annoying you are or how insensitive you are, or how exhausting you are, or how exhausted you are, there's something missing. So for me, that building of resilience tied in with rhythms that are sustainable, including friendships that are life giving, learning about things that are important to us and doing them. And find a person who will help you reflect, who will assist you and be with you and not judge you, that will assist your resilience.
Vic FrancisWell, I wanna thank you both for helping us explore many of the aspects and challenges of doing well. So in the next session we are going to talk answers, what we can practically do to look after ourselves and maybe those who are nearest us. So we will be right back.
Vic FrancisWelcome back to Fran Francis and Glenn Melville, and our exploration of how pastors can do well. In this last session, we're going to focus on answers, and I wanna start with you, Glenn. How do we best prepare for the inevitable tough times?
Glenn MelvilleI think, Vic, the more formational work a pastor can do in preparation for ministry, the better. And by that I mean an understanding of self. So I was trying to come up with a whole list of things like, there, there's so many, leadership style, understanding their personality, emotional intelligence. I mean, they can do StrengthsFinders, looking at some of their character development. One of the areas I explored with pastors in my research was those internal narratives or beliefs about themselves that they bring into pastoral ministry. And so things like, um, I want everyone to be pleased with me. Mm. I mean, if you take that into pastoral ministry, you are going to have challenges. Yes. I want to know, I've made a difference. Of course you do, what happens if you feel like you're not making a difference? Mm-hmm. Um, I'm not good enough to be a pastor. If I fail at something, then I'm a failure. So if you can identify some of those things which are often formed in our family of origin, in our childhood experiences, and you're aware of them as you go into pastoral ministry, that's gonna help you navigate those times when those buttons are gonna get pushed.
Fran FrancisYeah. And it's often the external listener who helps identify those, isn't, it reflects them back to us. Oh, I noticed you quite often say something or other and we're like, oh, do I?
Glenn MelvilleYes. Um, another key area I think is, we talk about our identity in Christ. I t's so easy for the pastoral identity to be very much performance driven. To be able to separate out the two, so that a pastor's self-esteem, their self-worth is not based on, on their pastoral role, but first and foremost on who God says, mm-hmm, that they are. Otherwise, again, they're gonna run into a lot of issues with people pleasing and being performance driven and workaholism and, and so on and so forth.
Fran FrancisYeah. And those would be the things we discover backstage, right? If we are spending time behind the scenes.
Vic FrancisI had this quite remarkable experience. It was just after COVID and our church was going back and maybe it was the first service and we didn't know how many people would be there or if anybody would turn up. I remember feeling a bit sorry for myself and feeling like God said to me, but would you do it for me, Vic? And something deep inside me answered. Yes. It was like an answer beyond, and it, and it was like in that moment I thought, I'm a grown-up now or something. That is the answer that I would hope would've come up. It was in no way an answer that I prescribed for myself, but it was just there. And I'm sort of thinking that who you're doing it for, Glenn, is such an important thing for us to know, it'll be tried, but if we've got it, then that will prove well for us.
Glenn MelvilleAbsolutely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, just a couple other things quickly. I guess working on your ministry convictions. So what are your values? What are the principles that are gonna guide you in decision making? Because, you know, when you get into the fray of pastoral ministry and situations come up, it's easy to react out of, you know, emotions or again, wanting to please people, et cetera. So trying to work out some of that stuff, before you go into pastoral ministry, and also going in with some boundaries. Working hours, communication boundaries, when are you gonna allow people to be able to contact you? And when are you not available? Just practical things, who, who are you gonna give out your number to? Ring fencing things like rest and Sabbath. There's a lot you can do to prepare, I think, which will stand you in good stead.
Vic FrancisThank you for that. Fran, w hat can we do, even as the car is barrelling down the road?
Fran FrancisWell, the car's a good example really. Sometimes it's time in the car that is our only time with God, grabbing the moments that we can, that are presented to us in the midst of an ordinary, very busy day. And I guess, what I'd like to do is frame contemplation like this, it's noticing the holy in the ordinary. So whatever you might think contemplation is, it's really just noticing the graces and where love is and where God is in the midst of an ordinary day. And so a practice that allows you to develop the ability to notice that more and more will leave you never feeling alone. But even if some of the ways God used to speak to you has dried up, by noticing where God is on your morning walk and paying attention to simple, small things close at hand, that is a great mitigating factor with the massive and overwhelming things that we can't fix or that have blindsided us. So I would really advocate, just in the midst of an ordinary day to, you know, yes there's gratitude and practices like that, but sometimes it's also sitting with the cat or the dog or the chickens, and somehow being so deeply appreciative that here is this faithfulness and simplicity. What does that mean to me that I'm noticing this faithfulness, just to attend to the ordinary and everything is spiritual. So we can't help but try and separate them out, but I think if we can practise bringing them together, to integrate them, that strengthens so much in us. And it's achievable. You don't have to have a special time to do that. You don't have to have a special qualification or sign up for some super course or anything like that. It's just noticing and you notice it with your eyes. You notice with your feeling, you notice it with your intellect, you notice it maybe in something that you hear, and I think that's something that certainly in my own life has made an enormous difference in the highs, lows, and plateaus of spiritual life.
Vic FrancisOn a bigger scale, I guess, too, w e'll be thinking about ongoing training, we'll be thinking about the development of our faith life. All of those things happen and, and are important, aren't they?
Fran FrancisAbsolutely. Um, I'm a member of the Association of Christian Spiritual Directors and we make a commitment to ongoing professional development and ongoing spiritual development. And those things, in a way, are kind of spelled out as to what they might look like. In many of our denominations, there are pathways for ongoing learning and growth. But not all of the independent churches have that. So someone who's coming from a church that sits in a different space that doesn't have pathways like this or, or doesn't have them yet, it's so important to find the, the way into ongoing theological development and, um, and growth.
Vic FrancisWell, I'm gonna ask you, Fran, first, for some real specifics, and maybe you've given us a couple, but what are some things that a pastor can do this week, or maybe this month, just to give you a little more scope, to invest in their doing wellness?
Fran FrancisI recommend doing the spiritual life inventory.
Vic FrancisOkay. Spiritual life inventory.
Fran FrancisYeah, spiritual life inventory. We'll put the link to it in the show notes. Janet Hagberg and Bob Guelich wrote a beautiful and amazing piece of research some years ago called The Critical Journey. Not critical as in critiquing, but critical as in how important it is and, and the journey they're talking about is our spiritual journey. And out of all their research, they created a wonderful tool to be able to answer a series of questions and locate yourself in your spiritual journey. It indicates some of the things that you've probably been through and shows you where you are now. Doesn't tell you what to do or how to be there. It just kind of shows you where you are. Um, and they also have a, a wonderful schema, it's like a map of what spiritual growth looks like, a simple visual. It's a great congregational tool. But I really recommend doing it yourself in that sense. You can't give what you've never received. And the other thing that comes to mind, if you've never done it, is to jump onto one of the apps like Lectio 365 or Pray-As-You-Go and just let the scripture be read to you and notice what you notice. Because the whole point of lectio is that it's not intellectual, it's reading with the heart. So there's a wide variety of apps and ways of accessing lectio these days. Or you can just read the scripture to yourself and just notice what you notice. Richard Foster has been doing lectio divina for, well, since forever. Um, it's a simple practice that's spiritually nourishing and especially for pastors and teachers, because it doesn't ask you to analyse the text and exegete, and turn it into something that has to be taught or applied. It's simply something you receive and you live from it. So a lectio divina practice, or holy reading, if you've never done it, I really recommend you give that a shot. It just gives you such a top up in terms of connection with God.
Vic FrancisI love both those ideas and very practical as a pastor could apply. Glenn, if we extend it out a little bit further, what are some things maybe that a pastor could do in the next year, to really invest in themselves so that they can do well?
Glenn MelvilleYeah, I'm an absolute advocate for lifelong learning. Yeah.
Vic FrancisFunnily enough. What is your job again, director of the Centre of Lifelong Learning?
Glenn MelvilleYep, that's right. So ongoing professional development. It's not just me saying it, but all the research I've read said that, absolutely, this is key to longevity in ministry and, and to wellbeing. And I'd really encourage to actually do something specifically every year, where you learn something new about yourself. This knowing of self is not just a, Hey I've done this. It's all done. We can still learn. I'm still discovering things about myself. Yes. So whether it's
Fran FrancisOh, you're still growing. Yeah,
Glenn MelvilleI'm still growing. Like in the last year, um, real life example, I've been exploring, Bowen Family Systems Theory a s it applies to pastoral ministry. I've never done that before, and I've learned insights about my family of origin and family motto and how that plays out in my own life. Mm-hmm. So there's always new wonderful things, theories, like we talked about, personality, leadership style, emotional intelligence, whatever it is. Commit to exploring something new.
Vic FrancisI remember a friend of mine, a theologian friend of mine, said when we stop growing, I think we could say stop learning, when we stop growing, though, we get defensive, w e put a fence around everything that we have learned. And there's no more than that. And, and it's a tragedy. One other thing, Glenn, maybe for a medium term.
Glenn MelvilleYeah. I mean, alongside, spiritual direction, which I've experienced all the benefits of myself, I would say meeting with a, a qualified professional supervisor, so like in the Baptist movement I'm part of we've been through this whole journey where where pastors were kind of just meeting with, you know, even the pastor down the road for a coffee and calling that supervision. No, actually to meet with an external qualified, trained professional supervisor makes a massive difference. I've had so many testimonies from pastors who've started engaging that and just never realised how beneficial it was, because taking that time to reflect on ministry practice. It's, it's in the reflection that the aha moments come and that there is growth. So complementary to spiritual direction. Yeah. I'd love to encourage all pastors to do both.
Vic FrancisSo important.
Glenn MelvilleYeah.
Vic FrancisWell, you guys are two pretty smart guys, and that's probably one of the reasons that you're still going strong, you're still doing well, I would like to think and like to hope. One of the things that I'm asking all of the guests on this podcast is a very simple question, and that's what gives you hope. So, Fran, maybe shall we start with you? What gives you hope?
Fran FrancisGod has got this. God has got you. God has got me. It's not all on your shoulders or mine.
Vic FrancisGreat answer. Glenn, what gives you hope?
Glenn MelvilleWhat gave me hope was hearing these pastors' stories and that they were all able to navigate these periods of low emotional wellbeing and come out the other side and are still in ministry today. And there's one story that's just stuck with me, is a pastor who'd been in pastoral ministry for five years, felt a complete failure in ministry, and they were gonna leave ministry, but their senior pastor gave them permission to take a sabbatical. It was in that time of sabbatical, of reflection, of engaging in spiritual practices that they just had this revelation of God's love for them. They said they were God's beloved child, and I love this, they said in a way that you talk about as a pastor, b ut this time it hit my heart in a way that I actually believed it. Wow. Yeah. And that's, that's the difference when that reality of God's love. And so they came out of that and they're like, well, succeed or fail, they are God's beloved child. And if all of our pastors could just come to that simple truth, w hat a wonderful place to, to do pastoral ministry from.
Vic FrancisIndeed. Well said. I'm also asking our guests to pray for our pastors. I think pastors give out a lot. I think all of us agree that it's a tough job. We've covered some of that today. But Glenn, Fran, would you, would you pray for us, pray for our pastors?
Fran FrancisYes. Who would you like to go first?
Vic FrancisOh, Glenn, why don't you start?
Glenn MelvilleLet's pray. Lord God, I am so grateful for all of the pastors who have responded to your call, who are willing to, to lay down their lives and, and partner with you to build your church, to see your kingdom come, Lord. And we acknowledge, Lord, some of the challenges of pastoral ministry and I pray that you would strengthen, encourage, equip pastors with everything they need to navigate those challenging times, Lord. But I also pray that you might fill them with joy for the work, Lord. That they might get a sense of fulfilment out of what they're doing and, Lord, that you would just fill them with your Spirit to empower them and enable them to continue the work. And that you would bless them Lord, in the name of Jesus and in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Fran FrancisAnd perhaps you too, even Vic and Glen, I'd like you to receive this blessing that I'm about to offer in the work you do as well. This is a, a blessing written by Jan Richardson. Blessed are you who bear the light in unbearable times. Who testify to its endurance amid the unendurable. Who bear witness to its persistence when everything seems in shadow and grief. Blessed are you in whom the light lives, in whom the brightness blazes. Your heart a chapel, an altar, where in the deepest night can be seen the fire that shines forth in you. In unaccountable faith, in stubborn hope, in love that illumines every broken thing it finds.
Vic FrancisAmen. Thank you on behalf of our pastors for praying for us and for contributing to our Doing Well episode of the For Pastors podcast. I thank you for your depth, for your research, for your love of the church, and for your love of our pastors, for your astute observations and suggestions. And for being true to who you are and being committed to growing yourselves. You're inspirations in your own right. And so we champion you, too, and your holy callings in this uncertain world. God bless. Thank you for being with us.
Fran FrancisThank you.
Glenn MelvilleIt's a pleasure. Thank you.
Vic FrancisThank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast, the final of the seven instalments in this pilot series. I'm hoping to be back with a second series in the early months of 2026, and in the meantime, I'd love to hear from you on how you've enjoyed this pilot and who and what you might like to hear on another series.
Vic FrancisJust email me on vic@solace.org nz.
Vic FrancisIn the meantime, I champion you, pastors, and your holy callings in an uncertain world. God bless you.