There Must Be a Better Way!

Vic Francis is joined by Sam Harvey and Richard Black, and asks in the wake of recent scandals with Philip Yancey and Shawn Bolz - and so many others before them - whether there's a better way to pastor and lead a church.

For more information on Vic and Solace, check out our website at solace.org.nz, or search us on Facebook or Instagram. And if you would like to support this podcast, please become a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/forpastors

To connect with Sam Harvey, click here.

Or here to pre-order Richard Black's book The Thriving Pastor, or here for free resources including white papers.

Transcript

Copy

Vic Francis 0:00

I'm Vic Francis, and welcome back to season two of the For Pastors podcast. I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. The For Pastors podcast aims to inspire, encourage, and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives. Well, this summer it's been Philip Yancy and Sean Bolz. A few years ago it was Mike Pilavachi. Go back a bit further to Bill Hybels. The list goes on and on. Heroes to many of us who haven't finished well. This podcast wonders about the pitfalls that can beset even legendary figures like these and says, surely we don't have to end up like that. Welcome to, There Must Be a Better Way! This week I'm joined by Richard Black of Thriving Churches HQ and Sam Harvey of Bay Vineyard Church and the New Zealand coordinator of 24-7 Prayer to try and figure out a better way for pastors. So Richard and Sam, welcome to the podcast.

Richard Black 1:33

Great to be here.

Vic Francis 1:34

Nice to have you guys here. Richard, maybe we'll start with you. Tell us who are you and where are you from?

Richard Black 1:40

So I'm based in Ōtautahi, Christchurch. My background is I'm an ordained minister. I worked as a church pastor for a number of years before God flicked a switch and called me into what I'm currently doing. So I'm also a qualified counsellor and I am the director of Thriving Churches HQ, where our focus and our aim is we want to see every pastor thriving and every church flourishing.

Vic Francis 2:07

Every pastor thriving, every church flourishing. Sounds like a great thing to be talking about today. Sam, over to you. Where are you and, and what do you do?

Sam Harvey 2:16

Yeah, I'm, uh, based in Napier lead pastor, as you mentioned of uh, Bay Vineyard Church. I grew up in an Anglican charismatic church, so I've been swimming in church, well all of my life. And, uh, felt called to ministry at a very young age. Went to Bible college and have been in full-time ministry for the last 23 years, I think. Starting to lose count at this point.

Vic Francis 2:33

Yes.

Sam Harvey 2:34

Uh, so you're based here in Napier and as you said, with 24-7 Prayer as well. So juggling those sort of bi-ministry world at the moment.

Vic Francis 2:40

Oh, it's wonderful to have you both and to hear some of your reflections on this. The prompt for this conversation was the disclosure over the summer of Philip Yancey, who I guess pretty much all pastors will have heard of, we've all read his books and we've probably all preached sermons that, uh, came out of his books. So him disclosing an eight year affair and promptly retiring from active ministry. And it occurred to me that if it can happen to Philip Yancey, it can happen to anyone. And in fact, if it can happen to Philip Yancey, it can happen to me. Then maybe less familiar to some, but, but more familiar to others, perhaps, Sean Bolz, the disclosure of mining people's social media for fake prophecies and some bizarre sexual stuff as well, and, and realising we're not squeaky clean in New Zealand either be it our institutional churches or our mega churches or anything in between. So Richard, you've thought and written extensively about what you describe as the need to find a healthier model of ministry for pastors. I love that phrase. And in your white paper, jamming, unjamming, sorry, the rudder, which we'll put a link to in our notes. You have this big headline and you say, Ministry is in Crisis. So tell me, are we really in crisis?

Richard Black 3:50

Yeah. I, I honestly believe we are, but it's the sort of thing that you wouldn't necessarily notice. I mean, churches still happen. People still turn up on Sundays to worship. They still go to their small groups. So things still happen and the kind of machinery of church is still occurring. But if we were to step back, what we can see, especially in this country, is we are not keeping up with the population growth. We are not seeing people come to faith at the rate that we would hope. In fact, over the decades we've been, this is looking like a kinda losing battle. So there's that. But the other side is we've got a leadership crisis within the church. And this isn't just me saying this, denominations are saying this. Ministerial training institutions are saying that when you look at what's required in order to even replace the current leaders that we've got, some are saying that we've got 30% or 50% replacement rate. There was one large church over the last couple of years had three candidates each year, which was nowhere near enough. You've got ministry vacancies that are happening. So you've got those kinds of factors. But even if you are one of those denominations where you go, actually we are seeing people come to faith, we've got leaders coming through. Well, the other thing that we discover is that through a number of longitudinal studies, pastors experience mental health challenges at a higher rate than the general public. And you go, oh my goodness, really? And there are a lot of factors and reasons why that is. And one of the things that I found absolutely astounding is that when you look at the emotional intelligence of clergy of those who are in ministry across the board, that what we find as we look in different countries and different denominations using different tools to measure it, the longer you are in ministry, the more your emotional intelligence decreases.

Vic Francis 5:56

Aha, that's incredible.

Richard Black 5:58

It is. It's like, you know, who wants to sign up then, and we haven't realised it. So when we take all of that together, we realise, and we've gotta say, actually ministry is in crisis and we need to do something substantial to bring about change here,

Vic Francis 6:15

Yes,

Richard Black 6:16

I must. cause as the old saying goes a system is perfectly designed to give you the results you're currently getting. So we've got a system that we have set up that is perfectly designed to give us this crisis.

Vic Francis 6:27

Yeah. And obviously in the context of this podcast, we're posing the idea that there must be a better way. Sam, I'll just go over to you for a minute. We use the word crisis. Is that how you see it on the ground in Napier?

Sam Harvey 6:40

I think Richard's articulated things very, very well there. The visibility of that sort of crisis isn't overt, but certainly, I think the two things he mentions there around that kind of leadership pipeline is a hundred percent the case. You know, as I travel around with 24-7 Prayer and certainly in our Vineyard movement, it's like, man, that's a real challenge and something there's a lot of conversation happening about. And then secondly, as Richard points out, the mental health and the spiritual health of folks leading churches, it is a role that seems to, to make it tricky to flourish, which is so crazy because you're like, last time I checked, we're following Jesus who says, I'm the way, the truth that leads to life. And surely at the centre of this thing, there's human flourishing and yet for some reason that's a real challenge for church leaders.

Vic Francis 7:22

Right. And so we don't, we don't have enough, and the ones that we've got aren't very healthy. So we, we are making progress so far in our conversation, aren't we? Richard, you have identified what you call, uh, rather provocatively, five saboteurs. Can you tell us what those are, and we might, uh, be able to explore one or two of them?

Richard Black 7:39

Yeah, sure. I think part of what has been the kind of unseen factors that are putting pressure on our church leaders, uh, I identified five key factors. So the, the first one is over identification with the role. The sense that I am the role and that the role defines who I am. The second one is misdirected calling. That is that if you ask most church leaders, why did you get into being a church leader? And other than being called, you know, what did you feel like you were called to achieve? They'll come up with a number of different things that we could classify as you wanted to be a spiritual leader. You wanna see people come to faith, you wanna make a difference in the community. But what happens is when they hit the concrete realities of the role, now it becomes very much organisational. How many people did we have on Sunday? How much money did we get in? Have we got enough people to fill the children's roster? All of those kinds of things, which are factors within leadership, but it became the tail that wagged the dog.

Vic Francis 8:40

Mm.

Richard Black 8:41

Then we have, out of those two areas, we have a pull to perfectionism. Many pastors are saying that we feel like we have to be perfect, or at least we, we can't show you, our imperfections, our cracks. The, the areas where there are foibles in our own life. And there's another dynamic under that, which just means you are bleeding out more emotional energy in order to appear that way. The fourth one is one of isolation, which seems strange because you are surrounded by people, but what they found was that leaders in fact felt increasingly alone because when they were going through difficulties, well, who exactly do I tell? I can't really tell the congregation because I need to lead them or it's not right? I certainly don't necessarily want to tell my denominational heads because depending on my denomination, maybe they'll fire me. They'll move me on. They'll intervene, they'll mess with things and I don't want that. And they said, to our shame, we can't actually tell some of our fellow church pastors because as much as I don't want to admit this, they'll say, they are my competition and I don't wanna look poor in their eyes. And so they'll then spiritualise it and say, it's just about me and Jesus, and all I need is Jesus. And most certainly, we hope that you have Jesus, but Jesus has created us to be people who need one another. The fifth one, which I found fascinating, was all around spirituality or what I referred to as the misdirected spirituality. You see, there's a whole lot of research that says if you have a spirituality, by and large, that correlates really strongly with having good mental, emotional health, or at least contributing to it. But when you looked at the research within Christian spirituality, that was true if it was what was called intrinsic spirituality. That is when we look at your spirituality. Why do you have your spirituality? Well, it's all about, it's all about me and God. I wanna get close to him. I wanna love him. I want to hear from him. I read his word 'cause I want him to breathe into my life. I, I pray to him 'cause he is my everything and I wanna pour my heart out to him. So when it was intrinsic, it gave people a kind of, what I refer to, as a spiritual immune system. That, that doesn't mean that you can't get unwell, just in the same way that your physical immune system doesn't protect you from being fully unwell. But it does help you to recover if you are unwell and it does protect you to a certain degree. But if your spirituality was what was classified as extrinsic, that is, you are doing it for an external purpose. I have my daily devotional time because otherwise I feel guilty or I feel like a bad Christian or a bad leader, or I, I read the word because I need a sermon on Sunday, or I'm praying because I'm paid to pray with all of you. Or what I'm praying about is, Lord, deliver us from, from those people in our church. I mean, why should we be blessed by them? Let let some other church be blessed by them.

Vic Francis 11:42

Yeah, and I wanna explore those more. Perhaps we should just say, when did you write this paper and why did you write it and how did it all come together?

Richard Black 11:51

Sure, the five saboteurs was part of my master's research, and that was like 10 years ago that I've been building on since then. Then I did more recently a postgraduate dissertation on two key factors out of that, that either enhance or detract from church wellbeing and also effectiveness. But this is what I've been journeying with, with church leaders for over the past 15 years. As a supervisor, as a counsellor, as a leadership coach. And so what I found out of the master's research had been sort of playing out in my clinical work and, and the basis of a lot of my clinical work. And so then I went out and, and did further research to make sure that I wasn't missing something here. And then from that I've pulled together a white paper just to let people know, you know, what I'm seeing, what I'm finding, which then forms the basis of the book that I've written as well.

Vic Francis 12:49

Fantastic. And I must call it Unjamming the Rudder. Having said, jamming the rudder, uh, uh, unawares. So I just, just the thing, I think things,

Sam Harvey 13:00

Richard's going around jamming everyone's rudder.

Vic Francis 13:02

Come on, Richard.

Sam Harvey 13:03

You gotta do, stop it, mate.

Vic Francis 13:06

Sam, those are provocative words, those five saboteurs. I nstinctively in hearing them, does that sound familiar?

Sam Harvey 13:13

Yeah, I mean, I've had the privilege of having a sneak peek at Richard's book, uh, before it comes out. It's gonna be well worth a read when it does. There's so much wisdom in it, and yeah, I mean, there's just, there's so much depth there. I think there's so much for us to learn as pastors and I'm, I'm a beneficiary of, of Richard's wisdom. Over the years I've been one of the folks on the other side of the table mm-hmm, you know, sitting in his office, working through this stuff. And Richard would be the first to say that the, you know, probably the top five things that contribute. Y ou know, there's so many other things that I think can give shape to pastors having a tricky time. We talk a lot about toxic leaders, um, and absolutely there's some stuff to deal with there, but there's also been toxic congregations and toxic cultures and churches that have really made life tricky for folks. But yeah, I think those, those five, uh, saboteurs are absolutely spot on. And as he goes through every one of those, I certainly can reflect on my own journey in terms of just having to learn some stuff there that has resulted in a lot of life as I've sought to lead a church in the way of Jesus.

Vic Francis 14:09

Hmm. Richard, if we picked up on the first one, the over identification with the role. My instant pushback is I'm, I'm called to do this role and Jesus expects something of me. How do I over identify with that role?

Richard Black 14:24

I would say this is like the most pivotal one that's undermining leaders all over the place and that sets leaders up for the other four ill health aspects and the, the saboteurs. You see one of the problems is there we've entangled together our identity, our calling, and our role as if they are all somehow the same thing. I mean, we know that Jesus is the one who sets our identity. We come from him. He's created us, we are created in his image, in fact. And so out of him, we draw our identity and then we have a calling, this calling, this purpose that God has placed in our life. And the Bible says that God is at work in us to will and to work for his good purposes. So something in us, there is a dynamism that needs to give expression in this world. But then there's this third area, this concrete expression, the role that we do the, the senior leadership role. Now, what's happened though is that church leaders take identity, calling and role, and they all get shoved together so that now the role determines and tells you what your calling is. And it also tells you what your identity is in the sense of are you worthwhile? Are you adequate? Are you good enough? And so as church leaders, we will identify around this, you know, I am a pastor, as if that is my identity, as if that's who I am, rather than that is what I do or the expression of my calling in what I do. So we look at the components and we say, we've got all the components, we've got our role, we've got calling, we've got identity, and we absolutely have. The problem is we've got them in the wrong order. And now we're allowing the power of the role and role outcomes to determine and tell us what our calling is. And with that, restricting our calling and then telling us about our, our worthwhileness, our adequacy, our significance, as if the role could ever tell you that.

Vic Francis 16:26

I think we're talking identity, calling, role in that order. Is that right? And sometimes we get 'em round the wrong the other way.

Richard Black 16:33

Oh, absolutely. We get them completely around backwards. I mean, one of the ways, as a kind of litmus test, I'll say to church leaders is if you want to know if you're over identifying with the role, let me ask you, how many here take what happens on a Sunday personally?

Vic Francis 16:49

Sam and I, let's put our hands up, eh?

Sam Harvey 16:52

Well, we're recording this on Monday morning, you know, so it's like, thanks Richard.

Vic Francis 16:56

That's right.

Richard Black 16:57

Absolutely. And I'll have pastors say, well, you know exactly how do you not take it personally? Yeah.

Vic Francis 17:01

How do you not, yeah.

Richard Black 17:02

But the very fact that we are taking it personally says that what happens on Sunday, the outcomes of Sunday, the outcomes of the role, all of that is determining and impacting who we are at a personal level. So the role itself and the outcomes in the role are either an asset to us, or a threat, a liability to us. And then as much as we want to say that Jesus is our master, we're in fact allowing ourselves to be mastered by and serving the kind of organisational outcomes of the role and what our, potentially our peers or our society would say makes you a successful pastor.

Vic Francis 17:42

Yeah, as you, you mentioned before, the measures, when we report to our boards or our movements or whatever, they tend to be on those things that push us even further into that, I suspect, you know, I've gotta be successful or else something is not right.

Richard Black 17:56

And nobody means this. Yes, nobody intends this. I mean, I sit with denominational leaders who have huge hearts and huge care for their pastors. And then they'll say, absolutely, we don't want them to be chasing the numbers, but by the way, could you all send in your numbers, please? And then all, all the pastors go, our denominational leaders tell us it's not about the numbers, but then the numbers come out and so we all take a look at the numbers and we compare. So how are we tracking compared to everybody else? And so it, it's not what's intended, it's something below the surface that's jammed, that's mastering us. And we haven't realised it because it's, it's where we all are swimming. And if we are all caught up in this, how do you know that there's a problem? And if you can't see it, then you can't address it. So simply we perpetuate it.

Vic Francis 18:47

I wanna, pick up in our next segment some more about this identity in Christ thing and how significant that is. But before we go to break, Richard, what about the misdirected calling piece, that second one that you have of your five saboteurs?

Richard Black 19:02

We start out wanting to be spiritual leaders, but the role then turns us into organisational leaders primarily. And one of the things that I find is that there's also this confusion between our calling, the big calling that Jesus has placed in our life, and the context by which we are living it out. And, and it's understandable that there would be a confusion, like in many denominations, if there is a vacancy within a role, we'll put out a call we'll say, and then a pastor will hear or accept that call. And we assume that the role is the calling. And I'll say no, God certainly may have been involved in calling you to that place, but there's a difference between your macro call, your big calling, and this micro call, this context calling. I mean, Paul was called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus in order to preach the good news to the Gentiles, to make them an acceptable offering to the Lord sanctified by the Holy Spirit. That's his big calling. But like there's a time when he has a vision from a guy from Macedonia who says, can you come over and help us? And they say, oh, we think God's calling us over there. Yeah, I think God is calling us over there, but that is a micro call. It's a place that should be a beautiful expression of your big call. And for Paul, that certainly is the case.

Vic Francis 20:24

Do you think that as pastors our calling is any stronger than if we were into any other, uh, walk of life? I mean, do pastors have something that really is specific to them because it's such a serving of the people of God or a growing of the Kingdom role?

Richard Black 20:40

Well, in part we can say yes, but also we can say no to this because all Christians are called and all Christians have a calling. And so, when people say, I feel called to ministry, that just means I feel called to serve and we all are. Now, is there a, a high calling to to lead God's people? Absolutely. I mean, the Bible also talks about how teachers will be held to a higher account. So I think there is a high calling in it there, but we need to not confuse that and think that everyone isn't called. We are, we're all called. We just have different expressions of it and finding out what our macro calling is, our big calling, will serve everybody and also advance the kingdom and mobilise the church in the way it needs to be mobilised.

Vic Francis 21:32

Well, this is a fascinating conversation and when we return, we're gonna talk more about our identity in Christ. So we'll be right back. Sam Harvey, Richard Black. Welcome back to For Pastors. We're calling this episode, There Must Be a Better Way. And Richard has introduced us to what he calls the five saboteurs over identification with the role, misdirected calling, pull to perfectionism, isolation and misdirected spirituality. And Richard, we started talking about identity, calling and role in that order. I, I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the need for a healthy identity in Christ. Seems to me to be really central.

Richard Black 23:12

Oh, it is, it's pivotal. I mean, Jesus is our beginning and our end. And none of this in one sense is, is new or rocket science. It's just that it's, it's been a head level understanding rather than an experienced reality. But if we take a look at like John 15, Jesus tells us that we are to remain in him and remain in his love. Otherwise, we can do nothing. We can achieve nothing. And what I find interesting is when you read that and it says, unless the branch is in the vine, you can do nothing. Now we know Jesus got it wrong, because of course we can achieve things. We achieve things all the time. And, and we see people who don't have a faith who achieve things. But what's interesting is that part there says you can achieve nothing of worth.

Vic Francis 24:00

Of worth. Yeah.

Richard Black 24:01

And so there is a warning that Jesus is telling us right there, that the place where we must draw from, our identity, our substance must come from our creator and our sustainer. He that is our vine. And so Jesus is the one who determines our worth and our value. So we have to know who we are as we discover whose we are. Yes, it's pivotal to, to give us the lifeblood by which we now do ministry. If we are not doing it for him, we are gonna be doing it for others. When we do it for him, there is a passion where we are willing to suffer. When we are not doing it for him, there is a drivenness where we are willing to make everyone else suffer to achieve it. It just becomes so unhealthy. So it's our identity of discovering who we are in him that is so life giving.

Vic Francis 24:54

Any quick check, an internal check, that we could do is like, who am I doing this for?

Richard Black 25:00

Well, part of it is, is you think about all the things that you are doing and, and all those markers of success. So imagine your church decreases by 50%, or imagine on Sunday there's a small coup and people dislike you. Now, as unpleasant as that is, how much does that impact who you are? Cause it says in Jeremiah 2:13, I've got two things against you, says the Lord. One, you've denied the living water that I want to give you, but you've also dug your own cisterns that don't even hold water. As humans, we have this propensity to reach for counterfeit. So if you want to do a quick check, think about all the things you are doing and think, well, if I couldn't achieve that, if that didn't happen, what would that say about me?

Vic Francis 25:48

Sam, you are on the ground pastoring in Napier. What is it like for a pastor week by week, y ear by year, even decade by decade in terms of ministry?

Sam Harvey 25:58

Well, it's fascinating, listening to Richard, I'm taking notes just for my own journey. Um, and it's fascinating what he was just talking about before, because Covid actually did that. So Covid, all of a sudden all of the things that may be attached to our self-esteem as church leaders got removed from us. And every pastor worth their salt, no matter how big or small their church, watched their online attendance decrease rapidly. And so I know that a lot of that got tested during the Covid, uh, time, and it was a very good moment to reflect on how much we are over identifying with the results of our role when that got removed from us. On the ground, uh, as a church leader, I've been doing this for 23 years now. I had my first sabbatical two years ago, so I'd done like 20 something years without a sabbatical. And I remember in the, um, early days, I think because my dad was a minister as well, I just had swum in the scene so much where I was like, if this isn't the real deal, I'm not interested. I wanna flourish at the centre of this thing. Mm-hmm. And here's one of my working theories, is that in the West, I think we've had this mindset where it's like, information will bring about transformation. Mm. If I can just hear Richard Black enough, I'm gonna be sorted. The reality is, though, that I can read John Mark Comer, can listen to Richard Black and blah, blah, blah. But that does nothing in terms of moving the needle of my own health as a leader unless it gets applied. Yeah. And so Jesus was explicit about this at the end of the Sermon on the Mount. He's like, it's the application that brings about transformation. Information brings revelation and gives us wisdom and all the rest of it. It's essential. But it doesn't end there. It begins there. So I began looking at my own life, just going, how can I live this out? Before Rob Bell went off the sort of Orthodox reservation, he banged on a lot about Sabbath about 15 years ago. And I remember just being utterly fascinated by how this practice had transformed his life. And I was like, I wanna learn how to do this. Which is always a good test around identity. You know, can you have a day where you are not thinking church and, and breathing in church and living church, and let God be in charge of the whole thing. So on the ground there is reality in terms of pressures. You know, like there's a sermon that you've gotta write most weeks. There's folks in our church who are having good weeks. There are folks in our church having really tough weeks, who are looking to you for support. You've got staff and there's always normally one staff member who's in a real tricky spot. So there is a pressure that comes with the role. But I'm convinced that at the centre of this thing, we can flourish, because I've experienced something of that. I think it's the journey of our lives. And I've had heroes of mine, like yourself, Vic, who have modeled decades of service, faithful service to the church, and who have never felt better after, after all of it. So, there's absolutely hope that we can live in such a way that flourishes, which is why I think Richard's work is so helpful and essential for us at this time.

Vic Francis 28:44

So tell us a bit more about your own personal story, you know, even of late Sam.

Sam Harvey 28:48

Yeah. It's been fascinating as Richard kind of explores the whole question of identity, calling and role. And certainly for me, I feel like I've stepped into a whole new place of freedom in my leadership of my church and within 24-7 Prayer as I've come to a place I think of health, of holding it far more healthily. Now, the Apostle Paul talks about being in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in folks. So there's absolutely I think, well, I call it a holy ache. I'm like, man, there's something that Jesus embodied and that Paul embodied around just a love for the people and a great ache to see the kingdom of God come on earth as in heaven. But there can be sometimes where I have absolutely held it in a way that is unhealthy. We talk about the gold, the girls, the glory as things that often take people outta ministry of, you know, talk about Yancey or Bolz, whatever. There's that kind of dynamic. I think for a lot of church leaders, discouragement would be right up there. It's not a G, which is a little unhelpful, but as I've mined into why I felt so discouraged, a lot of it is because I'm feeling high feelings about things I have very little control over. Yeah. And so, I realised that actually a lot of the angst that I was feeling as a church leader, was because of two things. Firstly, uh, pride. So this idea that I, I had more control over people's state of their soul than I actually do. And so one of the statements that I live by now, Saint Ignatius said, let the creator deal with the created. Dallas Willard talked about Jesus being one of the most relaxed people on the planet because of utter confidence in the word. Mm-hmm. So he would speak the word, but he wasn't doing all the follow up. He had confidence that the word that got spoken would accomplish what it was gonna accomplish. He was relaxed. And so for me, there was a dynamic of pride and a lack of faith, in that God was doing what God, only God could do in the lives of our folks. And so, I have these mantras now. Hold it lightly. Consider the lilies. The Serenity Prayer, Lord, give me the wisdom to know what I can control and what I can do there, and the wisdom to know what I don't have any control over. And to be at peace in the thick of all of that, to hold it lightly, uh, has become something of a key for me. Like, how can I hold this in a way that acknowledges the lordship of God and the leadership of Jesus of the church? And look, the reality is in my humanity, if attendance is low there can be that sense of discouragement. And also there's a pragmatic thing of, like, on my side of the table, I wanna make sure that the stuff that I, we do have some control over. We're chipping away at the stuff in a healthy way as a church. We're not trying to glorify dysfunction. I don't think that glorifies God either. But then there's that intensity that can come with a perfectionism that I think is incredibly broken.

Vic Francis 31:22

Sam, does it feel tangibly different with that trusting in God more approach when, when something difficult really happens?

Sam Harvey 31:30

Dramatically, dramatically, dramatically different. And particularly coming into this year, I was looking through my journal last year and honestly this was in there constantly last year. But it didn't really land until I hit a bit of a wall in October, November last year. And I realised I have to change a whole lot of mindsets here on how I'm carrying this thing. And I, I came out of summer, and I've just had so many people observe how much more joyful and relaxed and at peace, I feel. Wow. And so it has made a massive difference, particularly 'cause I carry two roles now. I've got two work days a week that I can chip away at Bay Vineyard stuff. And then you've got Sundays my third, and then two days to 24-7 Prayer. There's a sense for me, I have to learn how to hold this in a way where that isn't gonna cook me.

Vic Francis 32:13

Yeah. And I mean, you are now a bit of a veteran yourself, but to be able to feel those things in such a lighter way, presumably sets you up nicely for what's ahead, whatever God has ahead. So thank you for that. So there's a couple of things that niggle me a little, I might sort of throw back to you, Richard. Is it really that different being a pastor, the pressures that we face, than many other roles? I have nurses in our congregation that save lives every week. They're heroes to me. I have a financial advisor who handles people's money, millions of dollars, teachers, they're understaffed, under-resourced, working passionately and sacrificially. Do we have anything to complain about Richard, really?

Richard Black 32:58

Well in terms of the pressures that are on different roles, I think you're right. I think there are a lot of significant pressures that, uh, nurses face, that maybe financial advisors face. The difficulty with pastors is the way that it's all refined or channelled into their identity. So with the pastor, one of the things that's different compared to say, the role of a nurse or the role of an accountant is all roads lead to my identity. So as a pastor, if the church numbers are down, well what does that say about me? But also, if I'm struggling with my spouse or I'm struggling with my child, well then again, what does that say about me as the kind of pastor that I am, if I haven't got it all together, if my, my faith is dry? That, again, speaks to me and what kind of pastor that I am. Everything goes through the filter of what does this say about me as a pastor? Whereas an accountant who might be doing a great job in their accountancy firm, but struggling at home with their spouse, and people don't necessarily care about that. They're not saying, gosh, you are not really a very good accountant, no one really worries about that. Or alternatively, if things aren't going well in the accountancy firm, and that does place some pressure on them, but actually I've got my family, my family are doing really well, or I'm also a great mountain biker and I enjoy that they've got other sources that they draw upon that communicates something about who they are and their identity. The problem with the pastor is everything goes through this one filter of what does this say about me as a pastor.

Vic Francis 34:39

Yep. I get it. I think the other aspect of that is you're a pastor 24 hours a day. And the other thing that gets me a little bit, Sam, it occurred to me that we get very upset about a Philip Yancey situation or Sean, Sean Bolz situation. But I was talking, just in thinking about this podcast, to a pastor the other day who's in her forties, and she said, you know, I don't know of a single person who has had an affair in ministry. And I'm thinking, well, actually I don't know a lot either. I know one or two certainly. And so I'm wondering, is it something about the way that the church organisations work and the pressures, you know, we've had the denominational thing, the megachurch thing, or whatever, or is it something about our very job that sort of leads us towards that?

Sam Harvey 35:25

Yeah, I mean, I agree. I don't know anyone, um, that's in ministry that has, which is encouraging, because you don't want to, there's a danger of narrative thickening in terms of seeing these isolated kind of, and they are horrific situations unfold around the world. And somehow build a narrative around that that sees us lose trust in church leaders all around the place. But my theory is that this role is different in one sense from a nurse and a doctor or a, or a financial advisor. I have never worked in another job, so I'm not the guy to ask. But any mate of mine that has become a church leader from another world says this is a whole different thing, like unreal in terms of just how complicated this role is for a whole lot of stuff that Richard's saying, et cetera. And my kind of theory is that it's a formation accelerant. So any brokenness in your life gets exposed in the pastoral vocation, which is a gift, because it's an invitation to deep, deep healing. I've unashamedly been in counselling every year, certainly for the first 15 years of my pastoral ministry I was in counselling once a year, because bruises got kicked. Stuff got, you know, revealed and I had to work through a lot of things. But I'm so grateful for it because it leads us into a places of health and life. And I think as church leaders, there is a sense of us wanting to embody, to be smoking what we're selling. Mm-hmm. Which is, that we're being transformed from glory to glory. That there's a sanctifying work that God does in us as we track with him throughout all of our lives. And so while I don't think we're seeing the big affairs and stuff, we definitely, I think there have been a number of times where I've noticed church leaders in New Zealand. I'm like, man, there's some stuff you have not worked through and people are getting hurt and there's some brokenness here.

Vic Francis 37:05

Richard, uh, before we go the break, I want to take you back to when you were a pastor. What would you say to a, a Richard Black, the pastor?

Richard Black 37:14

Oh, that is a great question, Vic. Partly, I would love to have had me back then just to sit with me and talk me through because I was swimming in all of this and feeling the impact of, of it as well. Because I was revitalising a church and we started with a small church and we were growing that, then we encountered so many difficulties along the way that I found it so easy to become demoralised with what happened on a Sunday. When people would leave, I'd feel that massively, but if I had someone to help me form Jesus in me back then, it would've made so much difference. Because when you are in the pressure, it's so hard to swim against the current, to get yourself out of there. You need support, you need mentors. You need this kind of wisdom around you.

Vic Francis 38:06

Fantastic. I want to thank you, uh, Sam and Richard for helping us understand what are very important and, and matters that go right to the core, really, aren't they? Uh, we'll take a short break, and when we return, we're gonna talk about some healthy processes that just might make a difference. So we'll be right back. Welcome back, Richard and Sam, as we attempt to find a better way for pastors to be and to practice. So in the lead up to this podcast, I suggested that we might spend some time in this last session getting really practical, listing some healthy practices that maybe we do or maybe we have seen. And so the challenge is between us to come up with nine really great ideas. Um, so Sam, can I ask you to give us three healthy practices?

Sam Harvey 39:28

Number one. Prayer. I am the 24-7 Prayer guy. That has to be number one.

Vic Francis 39:33

You've gotta say that, man.

Sam Harvey 39:35

And give me as much stick as you want. It is absolutely number one. Build a private life with Jesus that is healthy and flourishing and deep and real. When you have a sabbatical, it should just tick along because you love hanging out with Jesus. Summer break, you shouldn't skip a beat because just because you're not producing stuff for him doesn't mean you can't hang out with him. He loves you. He's for you. So build a deep and flourishing life with Jesus as the number one.

Vic Francis 40:02

Beautiful.

Sam Harvey 40:02

Number two is a Sabbath rest. Again, I've beat this drum so much over the years, but I just think it's right there from Genesis to Revelation. After prayer, it's the second most common spiritual practice. It's overt, it's in the 10 Commandments. It's crazy to me that a church leader could break the other nine and get sacked, but work seven days a week and get celebrated. It's insane. Jesus affirms it in the New Testament. Hebrews continues the, the narrative blah, blah, blah. So that's my second one is fight for it. It. It's not easy, but it's so, so important. And thirdly, and this is the curve ball. Make friends with the feeling of disappointing people. Jesus disappointed the crowds, the religious institution, his family, because he was clearer about his identity. Come on, Richard. He was clear about his calling and in the thick of that, it meant he could disappoint people. I think the key to surviving in ministry long term is making friends with the feeling of disappointing people's expectations because there's something deeper in your heart around what you want this to look and feel like.

Vic Francis 41:03

So great. Such a good reminder. Richard, what about you? What are three healthy practices that you feel like we could pursue?

Richard Black 41:11

Yeah. Well, I think what Sam's outlined is just brilliant and in many ways, I might be saying similar things, just using slightly different language. I'd say first up that we've got to have a life that's built on the rhythm of retreat, retreating in daily life into a time with him, retreating periodically to spend time with him, where we recalibrate who we are according to him, where we marinate more and more in him. So we taste more like him. We smell more like him. I think that is, is critically important. The second one, I would say. You know, Saint Ignatius has the Examen process, which is great. I would also say we need to examine ourselves around identity and calling in terms of why did I do what I did? Was this actually for Jesus and his kingdom? Or was this to meet some other need in me? Was this to make me look good? Was this to, to make me shine, to make me feel good? And so the ability to examine why I'm doing things, self-awareness is one of the greatest assets that we can offer to other people. We can be healthier and we can be safer for our people when we are far more self-aware. So I think that examining of why am I doing this? What need is this meeting? Is this truly for him or not? And am I in my sweet spot of the calling which God has placed in my life, or have I submitted my calling to the detrimental aspects that may be in the role? And the final one is worship. Not just worship as what we do on a Sunday where we sing songs and we worship God, that is critically important, but where we worship him, where we say, Lord, you are greater than other things in my life. I will remain silent here rather than speak up. I will deny myself in this area in order that you be glorified. So our life that is lived in a way that tries to, as best as we are humanly possible, worship him and give him glory by, by willing to surrender and sacrifice other aspects in our life.

Vic Francis 43:18

Gee, we're in the presence of great wisdom here, fellow pastors. I think this is just so fantastic. So here are mine. I would challenge pastors to see a spiritual director, as well as a supervisor. And I am a spiritual director, so okay, full disclosure or something. In 33 years of pastoring, the only person who ever asks you how you are doing with God is your spiritual director. Your supervisor doesn't, I'm a supervisor too, so your supervisor doesn't, 'cause you're working on the business, on the church. Um, I always say if you can only do one, do spiritual direction, cause you can get supervision from peer relationships, conferences, books and things like that. Nobody ever looks you in the eye and says, how are you and Jesus really going, Sam Harvey, you know? I'd say silence as well, um, is something that we often haven't explored. Our church is noisy. Our, our minds are noisy. Our calendars are noisy. Someone said, silence is the window to the soul, and the soul is the window to God. And so that's an area that I'm discovering. I'm certainly not an expert in it, but it's really important to me. And the third thing for me would be find something that takes you so far away from pastoring and what you're doing, that you can't even think about being a pastor in that moment. And so I think back to my times of coaching my kids' football team, and, uh, you'd go to a practice, you've got 15 kids who don't really wanna be there, and you've got the responsibility for them. And you've got to make sure that you return them to their parents at the end of the day and try and get a little cohesion and plan for the weekend. And I would come off that field after two hours and I hadn't thought about, you know, the financial situation at church once or the plunging numbers or the soaring numbers or whatever it might have been. And I didn't realise at the time, but I was like, that was good. My church didn't exist in the intensity of what I was doing there. So something, be it a hobby or some sort of pursuit that takes you completely away. So there are our nine, from Sam, prayer and Sabbath rest and making friends with the fact that you're gonna be disappointing people; from Richard, the rhythm of retreat, examining ourselves around our identity in particular, and discovering what worship really is. And then from me, see a spiritual director, explore silence and find something that takes you completely away from the things that make you identified as a pastor. My goodness. We are clever, we are. Richard, as we come towards the end of our conversation here when we start talking about those really practical things, does it make your heart sing a little bit?

Richard Black 45:55

Oh, absolutely. And, and I also see pastors moving in this direction more and more. And so part of the beauty of being able to sit with pastors and do their clinical work and see them extract their identity from the role and clarify their calling to gain greater freedom, to gain sort of almost to burn out proof their life, t hat is a huge joy. And, in one sense, it should be no surprise if, if we just did the things that Jesus taught us to do, this would go so much better. Yes. What, what does it take to get us back into doing the things that Jesus taught us to do? So yeah, absolutely. When I hear those things my heart sings, and when I see pastors living it out practically, it's a deep joy for me.

Vic Francis 46:41

Yeah, a deep joy indeed. Sam, final thoughts before we move on to a couple of things that we do at the end of each of our podcasts.

Sam Harvey 46:48

I just love that this is a conversation that's feels to me like it's got normalised over the last sort of 10 or 15 years, where we're just talking a lot more about, um, how to build the kingdom the king's way rather than the world's way. Or how do we build the church in a way that glorifies and honours Jesus? So I feel really encouraged, and I feel privileged to be a, a church leader at this time of history. In one sense, there's a lot of pressure, which is a good thing for a church to get formed in terms of a praying community that seeks God, et cetera. I love that there's so much wisdom out there. Now, the challenge, as I've said, is living it in applying it, and that's where, where all the joy is found, I think.

Vic Francis 47:23

Thank you. Thank you. This podcast aims to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. And I think we probably agree it's an uncertain world, and I wanna ask you both, Richard, maybe we'll start with you, a question that I ask all of my guests, what gives you hope?

Richard Black 47:39

One of the things is I'm not trusting in what humans can do. I know that our Lord is working behind all of this and, and he is not mocked. And so, we see things like what people are referring to as the quiet revival or it's not so much just with young men. We are seeing people come to faith in weird and wonderful ways. We are seeing a spiritual hunger increase within our nation, which is something I didn't grow up with, where we had people more inoculated to a kind of cultural Christianity. So to see the spirit at work in people's lives and see spiritual hunger is one massive thing. I think also the fact that we are feeling the pain around the leadership pipeline and we are starting to seriously look at doing things differently. And I'm also hearing churches focus on prayer and church planting more now than ever before. And so there are lots of green shoots out there that are saying the future with our Lord still looks bright.

Vic Francis 48:39

Thank you Richard. Sam, what gives you hope?

Sam Harvey 48:42

Flowing on directly from that is that absolutely we live in this uncertain world. There's been a lot of pressure, and culture has shifted a lot over the last 10 years. What is beautiful is that I'm seeing the church respond, particularly in the space of prayer. I get a inside look to that around New Zealand, uh, in a way that's a real privilege now, and the data is absolutely encouraging and should fill us with hope. Preceding Covid, so the years where we could tick along normally, we averaged between 10 and 13 prayer rooms in New Zealand a year where last year we had a 190 prayer rooms around the country. The data in terms of hours prayed, again this is just people that use the signup tools and what-not, the graph looks mental. We're dealing with like tens of thousands of hours. I think it was like 60,000 hours last year. It's like the surge of prayer around the country. And again, not just with 24-7 stuff, Open Heaven, there's a circuit board of relationships that's getting formed in New Zealand of church leaders who know each other, love each other, humble, hungry, holy, pursuing God, building a culture of prayer in their churches. And I love, I just love it. John Wimber said, you know, I'm a part of the Vineyard tribe, and one his kind of things just felt like the Lord say to him one time, I've seen your ministry, John, roll his eyes, uh, and then God say to John Wimber, you know, I'd love to show you mine. And I feel like that's happening. Like we're getting on our knees and saying, let's restore prayer to its rightful place as reflected in the life of Jesus and the early church. And that reflects a humility, and I'm really praying for a greater holiness in our churches. And 2 Chronicles 7's pretty exciting in the context of a sustained prayer focus over the years that I think, uh, a new normal in the culture of prayer in New Zealand, that I think could see us in some quite exciting times.

Vic Francis 50:23

Also on our podcast I get our guests to pray for our pastors of New Zealand, Sam might lead you off as someone who is leading that really important, significant prayer ministry, 24-7 Prayer. And maybe Richard, you could follow on from Sam. Would you pray for us pastors?

Richard Black 50:41

Absolutely.

Sam Harvey 50:42

Privilege to do so. Let's, let's pray together. So gracious Lord, wherever we are, as we listen to this, we invite your Holy Spirit to come and meet with us and to fill us afresh with your life-giving presence. And we thank you, Lord God, that you call ordinary people to shepherd your church. And after all the conversation that we have had today, I pray that you would help us not just to lead well, but to live well before you. Lord, I pray that you would bring healing to brokenness in our lives and restore to us the joy of our salvation. Deepen our love for you. And may we carry this in a way that honours you and we ask Lord God that we would flourish, not for our, just our own sake, but so that your church would flourish all around us. Mm. Fill us again with your spirit and give us wisdom. We ask for all that we carry. All that we navigate. We thank you that you are with us. We thank you for your example and we thank you that you are the head of the church. Hallelujah. In Jesus' name.

Richard Black 51:45

Father, we want to thank you so much that your heart for us is greater than anything that we can ever imagine. Mm. Lord, that you are more for us than we can ever imagine. And so, Lord, my prayer for all those in ministry is, Lord, they would be lost in your love. They would experience the tangible, powerful presence of your love in every aspect of their life. Lord, may that be the place where they plant their roots, where they draw from, and minister from. Father, would you allow your leaders to, to their hearts, to soften before you in that space where they would recognise their own fragility or insecurity so that they would allow you in to bring healing and restoration. Father, would we have more and more leaders who are rock solid in your love and your delight over them, that from that place and by your spirit, they would lead and they would minister. So Father, I pray that we would have leaders who are rooted deeply in you and in your love, and that they would have their lives more and more transformed to your glory and in your way that we would see more of your kingdom come within this nation.

Vic Francis 53:03

Amen.

Richard Black 53:04

Amen.

Vic Francis 53:06

Well, I wanna thank you, Richard and Sam. Thank you for your work, in local church and in the wider church in Aotearoa, for your deep thinking and your practical wisdom and your willingness to go into some of the awkward spaces and explore those, for Thriving Churches HQ, for Bay Vineyard Church, for 24-7 Prayer and so much more. And so we champion you, too, and your holy callings in this uncertain world. We do it together. God bless you.

Sam Harvey 53:37

Thank you so much.

Richard Black 53:38

So good. Thanks.

Vic Francis 54:03

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast, the first of season two. You can find more information about us in the podcast notes, and I'm back in a fortnight with something completely different. An interview with the leader of the Coptic Church in New Zealand, Father Bishoy Mikhaiel. What is the Coptic Church? Why does it celebrate Easter on a different date? And how does it fit with the wider church in Aotearoa New Zealand? I do hope you'll join me. Bless you today.