For Pastors

Out of Egypt, He Called Them

• Vic Francis • Season 2 • Episode 2

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0:00 | 46:29

Vic Francis is joined by Father  Bishoy Mekhaiel in an exploration of the Coptic Church out of Egypt, and its small but vibrant presence on the New Zealand Christian scene.

Vic and Bishoy explore the foundations of the Coptic church, its first Pope Saint Mark (writer of the Gospel of Mark) and Orthodox Christianity, something little known in New Zealand.

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Vic Francis

Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and welcome to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. The face of New Zealand has changed completely over recent decades with immigration from around the world. This has resulted in an influx of different expressions of Christianity, changing the landscape of the church in New Zealand, and bringing with it resilience, colour, light and love. Among the immigrant churches are various iterations of Orthodox Christianity. Not Protestant or Pentecostal or Catholic, but Orthodox. This podcast explores one such church, the Coptic Church from Egypt, with the vicar of the Copts in New Zealand, Father Bishoy Mekhaiel. Welcome then to Out of Egypt, He Called Them. Well, Father Bishoy Mekhaiel, welcome to the For Pastors podcast.

Fr Bishoy

Hello Vic. It's a pleasure to be with you and a big blessing to see you again. We used to serve together in the same area for many years and it's so good to see you again.

Vic Francis

We did indeed. In fact, I live in the suburb where Father Bishoy's church is, it's in Beach Haven, in Auckland, in New Zealand. And there are five Coptic churches in New Zealand. And you are the vicar over all of them, but, but specifically for the Auckland church. How did you end up in New Zealand in this position?

Fr Bishoy

Okay. I migrated from Egypt, Alexandria, I born in Alexandria.

Vic Francis

Yes.

Fr Bishoy

Back to the year 1988.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

One year from my arrival, I got married, so I was a deacon serving in the church in Melbourne, St Mary Church. Coptic Church, in Melbourne.

Vic Francis

In Melbourne, yeah.

Fr Bishoy

Then after I served it for all that time, I've been approached a few times to become a priest, and every time I say I'm not worthy.

Vic Francis

Ah.

Fr Bishoy

But then a new bishop come. Then when he offer that, there is a church in Auckland need a priest. I found myself, I was not able to say anything.

Vic Francis

Ah.

Fr Bishoy

So he has to ask my wife, if my wife said no, so there will be no ordination, and my wife said, who am I to say no to the Lord?

Vic Francis

No to the Lord. Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

Then I was ordained in the, the fourth of June, 2000. Then I went to a monastery in Egypt to do kind of preparation for priesthood for 40 days.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

Then I started to come to Auckland on the 11th of August, 2000.

Vic Francis

Wow. So that's 26 years now. So that's a long time. What is a Coptic Church? Most New Zealanders won't have been to one and may not understand what it is.

Fr Bishoy

The word Coptic, first of all, mean Egyptian. So it's nothing good to do with Christianity or anything like that. So it's derived from the Greek word Aigyptos, Gypt, Copt. And orthodox, that is mean, like the straight faith that is being handled from generation to generation, from the time of the apostles, and we try to preserve that faith accordingly to what we receive from that time of the apostles.

Vic Francis

And so if I was to come to a service in your church, and I know you do have English services and services in Coptic and I think Arabic, what would it be like and feel like.

Fr Bishoy

Our ritual in the church, you know, like you're gonna find a lot of incense. We use a lot of incense in our church.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

We having the liturgy of the word.

Vic Francis

Yes.

Fr Bishoy

The beginning, you know, like we start with offertory when we have the holy bread, which will be choosing one to become later on the true body of Christ. We having a bit of wine mixed it with water as the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. When the soldier pierced his side came blood and water. So we try to remember that through all the prayer we ask the Holy Spirit to transform the actual bread and the wine mixed with water to the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we go through very rich ritual prayer, and as I said, the liturgy of the word, which is reading from the Pauline epistles in one of the 14 epistles of Saint Paul.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

One of the catholic epistles, which is one of the other epistle written in the New Testament, which are seven.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

So one of them. Reading from the book of Acts. Then we're having a book called Synaxarium, which is a biography of the saints and martyrs. Every day we remember some of those saints and martyrs, and then we're having song and then the gospel of the liturgy. So we having many reading, you know, in the beginning. And then later on we go into the reconciliation prayer and then a special prayer called Anaphora, where we having imitating Christ when he bless the bread to, you know, like to give to the disciples and he bless the wine to give to the disciples. We'll go through all the journey from the Bible.

Vic Francis

Is it a very ancient tradition that you're following? The churches today, maybe in say Protestant churches would look quite different in lots of ways. Modern music and different approaches, modern dress. Would yours more closely reflect something that is historic?

Fr Bishoy

Definitely, like if anyone come to the Coptic Church liturgy, definitely you're gonna find the difference. But we can find a lot of similarity between part of the liturgy with the Catholic church, for example.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

Even like Anglican with some parts we share together. Yes. In the actual prayer, that creed that we keep reciting. But we following the Nicene

Vic Francis

The Nicene Creed. Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

Which is referring to the Holy Spirit, that it has been proceeded from the Father only, not the Father and the Son. So we stick to the Nicene Creed and as you know, like the, the Creed is not just, you know, written in one council, but actually it's a result of three council, the Nicene Council, Constantinople Council and the Ephesian or Ephesus Council. So it's a span of 106 years for the whole Creed, the introduction to the Creed, which you confirming the Saint Mary is the mother of God. Then the part of the Nicene Council up to the part before the Holy Spirit, then the Constantinople Council to continue, yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit. So 106 years.

Vic Francis

So I think most New Zealand believers would have some understanding of, of what a Protestant church believes and looks like, and of what a Catholic Church believes and look like. You would call yourself an Orthodox church. I think you used that term already. Right. Can you, can you just explain for us what is an Orthodox church and where the Coptic Church fits into that.

Fr Bishoy

If we're gonna talk about the Orthodox Church, we need to know like what really like split, you know, like the Christian, like that will go back to the year 451AD and that is uh, Chalcedon council that divided the church to become Western and Eastern.

Vic Francis

Yes.

Fr Bishoy

So definitely sometimes they gonna find that the culture influence the ritual of the liturgy. So you're gonna find a lot of that we use in the Coptic church referring some of them to the Pharaoh time, the burial of the kings or the pharaohs of Egypt. So you're gonna find a lot of influence. But in our church, for example, one of the different is the music, as you mentioned before. Mm-hmm. So we only using a triangle and cymbal, just you know, to adjust the tune. But we don't have pianos stuff, pianos and all other music when it come to Sunday school celebration we can use this stuff for occasions, but not in the liturgy itself.

Vic Francis

So how does that play out in a New Zealand context?

Fr Bishoy

Uh, I find a lot of interest actually. Whenever anyone come to the Coptic Church, they always, like, as soon as they enter the church, they always say that we feel the spirit there with the iconostasis, the icons and the atmosphere in the church across. Like our church is decorated with a lot of icons, so we are having an amazing kind spirit all those icons and all the saints and martyrs looking at us every time we pray as he talking to every one of us. Hey, we live to like you in this world. Here we are. We are having a place in heaven. How about you? Are you following Christ?

Vic Francis

I can remember some years ago when I was part of a ministers' association with you and one of the things that I, uh, picked up is that you do a lot of fasting.

Fr Bishoy

Yes.

Vic Francis

Uh, and a lot of feasting. I think you have, uh, looking at your website, seven major feasts, the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Epiphany, Palm Sunday, Easter, Ascension and Pentecost, if I've got it right.

Fr Bishoy

Yep.

Vic Francis

So tell me about fasting and feasting.

Fr Bishoy

We start at Lent.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

So we start from 16th of February. Up to the Feast of Resurrection 12th of April.

Vic Francis

Right.

Fr Bishoy

The Western churches will be celebrating 5th of April.

Vic Francis

Mm.

Fr Bishoy

So we are having 55 days of fasting. Vegan. No seafood, no poultry and no meat. So this is, we call it the first great fasting, because our Lord Jesus Christ, he fasted 40 days. So we put this at the top of all the fasting of the Coptic Church. There's other fasting before nativity. 43 days. So 40 days Moses fasted before he received the commandments. So we are about to receive Christ the word of God.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

So we first 40 days, plus three days. There is miracle happening in Egypt of moving the mountain with prayer and fasting. So the people like fasted for three days to perform with the verse in the Bible. If you have faith as little as mustard seed, you will tell the mountain to move from here to there and it'll move. So the whole people fasted for three days and three nights. And through after three days, the Mokattam mountain started to move. You can see the sun under the actual mountain. That's historically it has been written in history.

Vic Francis

Mm.

Fr Bishoy

So it's true miracle that happened in Egypt.

Vic Francis

So it's a remembrance and a celebration of that. I also know from my experiences that if we would have our ministers' meeting at your church when you were feasting, it was a feast indeed. So, although you fast a lot, you don't hesitate to feast when it comes to the appropriate times, do you?

Fr Bishoy

Correct. We actually like in our feast every day of the Coptic calendar. In the book that I just mentioned, the Synaxarium, it is written, we celebrate today. Yes. So every day of the year there is celebration of a saint or a martyr, or one of the major feast, as you mentioned, Vic.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

Or minor feast Minor. So we have actually 14 feast. Seven are major, which are related to our salvation, and then another seven minor feasts. So this is just, you know, like as I mentioned, every day there is celebration. We have no day without celebration.

Vic Francis

Every day is a celebration, whether you are feasting or fasting.

Fr Bishoy

Correct.

Vic Francis

Yeah. So it's a state of the heart.

Fr Bishoy

Yeah. Correct. Yes. Our Lord want us always to rejoice.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

As Saint Paul, he mentioned in the epistle to the Philippians chapter four, verse four, rejoice in the Lord always. And I say rejoice. So God want us to rejoice because in the world we have gonna have tribulation. But when we trust in God and we know that we are heavenly creature, God created us in his image and likeness in wholeness and purity. So we actually need to live heaven on earth. Regardless what we see here, the Lord wanted us in the world you will have tribulation. So he did not trick us. For us as a Christian, whoever want to live in godliness, he'll be persecuted.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

So we, we prepared, so kind of we know what we're gonna face.

Vic Francis

Yeah. Persecution is something I'd like to talk about, uh, in a little while too. Because you are an ancient church and because you are from the Middle East, I guess. You have seen persecution and known persecution from early and so we will explore that. J ust as we come towards a conclusion of this first section, we've mentioned a little bit of the ways that a Coptic church is different from churches that perhaps most New Zealand Christians and pastors would know. But what would you see are some of the distinctives in terms of your emphasis in relation to the scriptures or theology, or what are the things that do set you apart.

Fr Bishoy

When it comes to theology, you gonna remember Vic, like the Coptic Church, like produces many hero of faith, like Pope Athanasius when he stood firmly, you know, like to protect the Christianity from Arianism. So he took really strong, you know, step to say no. And he started to put the creed because Arius, you know that, he's the one who come with heresy to deny the divinity of Christ.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

So without Pope Athanasius, most of the world will be following Arianism. That Christ is not equal to God.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

But we all believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal and they are one. Later on Coptic Church produce, you know, Saint Anthony, he's a founder of monasticism of the world. So through him started, you know, like monasticism to flourish in many part of Christianity. And also remember that in the book of Isaiah, for example, so we are blessed, you know, that the Holy Family come with a prophecy from the beginning of chapter 19 in Isaiah. That the Holy Family will come to Egypt. And also in the verse 19, in that day, there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt and a pillar to the Lord at its border, which is referring to Saint Mark. Maybe that later on we can talk about Saint Mark. So that we are mentioned in the Bible and the Lord himself when he was born, when he want to found shelter from Herod, when he decide to kill all the children in Bethlehem, he choose Egypt to find a shelter there.

Vic Francis

Yes.

Fr Bishoy

For all that, maybe Iraq or Syria, w ere close to Jerusalem. Right. But he chose Egypt to fulfill the prophecies. Out of Egypt, I will call my son. Yeah. In Hosea

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

So there is a lot of things, you know, we are proud, you know, to be part of. The Holy Family and Saint Mark later on. So we are the blessed, you know, land of Egypt and we also, we proud that the Coptic church produce a lot of martyrs to Christianity. We cannot count them. We're having cities in Egypt. They offer, you know, like children, ladies, advance of age people, the whole city used to be killed. They did not, you know, deny Christ easily. Like even in some history they say. You can move mountain from its place, but you cannot move a Copt from his faith. Right. The proper Copts, like the one who follow Christianity properly, not someone whose faith is shaken or something like that.

Vic Francis

That is profound. I must say, one of my great heroes personally is Athanasius. But I've never heard him referred to as Pope Athanasius before. So in my tradition, he's there and for the very reasons that you're talking about him is celebrated. But he's one of your popes and we'll talk about that a little in the next segment, the history and some of the reality of being a Coptic believer in Egypt and, and therefore in New Zealand. So we'll be right back. Father Bishoy, welcome back. This podcast is coming out on April the seventh, which means a couple of days before everybody's listening many churches celebrated Easter Sunday, Sunday, April the fifth. In the Coptic Church, you celebrate Easter, in this case at least, a week later, this will be your Easter celebration coming up Easter Sunday being April the 12th. How did that happen? Why don't we celebrate it on the same weekend?

Fr Bishoy

Okay. Very good question, Vic, because some years we can celebrate together, just to confirm. Some years, like this year, for example, one week different. Some years will be two weeks different, right? Some years, maybe three or sometimes even five. Okay. Just to make it as easy as, we have to celebrate our Easter after the Jewish Passover. We cannot celebrate it with them. We cannot celebrate it before them. So whatever, how they use, you know, count the Passover, so we always, one week after.

Vic Francis

One week after.

Fr Bishoy

With the Western churches, you don't put this kind of rule. So it can be with the Jewish Passover or even, you know, before, we do not follow this rule. Just in brief.

Vic Francis

Right.

Fr Bishoy

But there is a lot of, you know, other history to confirm about, but that's one of the main thing we do not do it with or before, has to be after.

Vic Francis

Easter would still be the high point of your year and celebration?

Fr Bishoy

Hundred percent because definitely the resurrection of the Lord is the cornerstone of our faith. If Christ is not risen, all our faith is futile or empty. Mm-hmm. We, we're not gonna be believing in one prophet that he died on across and that's it.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

He rose in his own. So definitely he is the first, you know, like of those who rise from the dead on his own power. He gave us the resurrection with him. When our Lord rose from the dead, he also granted us to be also glorified when we one day in the second coming. Mm-hmm. We're gonna have the same glorified body as the Lord rose from the dead. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.

Vic Francis

As, as it is in the creeds that we would say too.

Fr Bishoy

Yes.

Vic Francis

You go back to Saint Mark. Tell me about Mark. Who is he and, and how did he become your first pope?

Fr Bishoy

Okay, so definitely for us as a Coptic church or Egyptian, we owe Saint Mark a lot. So we normally like have, uh, special praises for Saint Mark that we recited in every vesper and in every liturgy. What do you say in it? We say in it, you came and enlightened us, and you taught us the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. You turn us from darkness to light. And you gave us the bread of life. He taught us, you know, like about liturgy and how, you know, we can use communion in our liturgy later on.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

So, Saint Mark, thank God that, you know, like in the book of Acts, Saint Paul at one stage he said I don't want Mark to serve with him because he left him in one of the city, as you know, like in the trips of Saint Paul. Then he said, no, the one who left us in Pamphylia, I don't want him to follow that. And thank God, thank you so much Saint Paul, because of that, Saint Mark started to focus about going somewhere else. Yes. So he thought to come to Alexandria. But the only thing that how he is gonna spread, you know, the word of the Lord in a country, big, everyone doesn't believe in God. So I am sure that he prayed.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

Always there is, you know, an entry of the faith in the heart of every person. God always prepare for us how we do that. So how it happened with Saint Mark, while he is walking in the desert, so his sandals that he was wearing started to torn off.

Vic Francis

Ah.

Fr Bishoy

So he started to say, okay, I'm gonna go to a cobbler. I will need someone to help me. That's the only sandal that I have as the Lord himself he commanded his disciple. When you go, just go with one sandal, don't have any spare one.

Vic Francis

Mm indeed.

Fr Bishoy

So Saint Mark was following that one. So when he went to the cobbler, while he's fixing his sandal, the needle enter into his finger. So this was painful. So he shouted and says, Oh, Eis Theos!, which mean oh, the only God.

Vic Francis

Ah.

Fr Bishoy

Then Saint Mark looked at him and then he asked him, do you know what you're talking about? Do you know the only God? He said, no, I do not know. Ah, but we believe as Egyptian, it should be someone. He should be the only one. Then Saint Mark took it as the introduction to pass the faith to that man. He started to tell him, I am coming to tell you about the only God.

Vic Francis

Wow.

Fr Bishoy

That person later on, his name was Anianus. So later on he become the Pope, number two, after Saint Mark.

Vic Francis

After Mark?

Fr Bishoy

Mark.

Vic Francis

So the cobbler became Pope number two.

Fr Bishoy

Him all his house been baptised.

Vic Francis

Wow.

Fr Bishoy

And he started the first church. Saint Mark, before he leave Egypt, he ordained three priests and seven deacons. So they can continue, you know, serving somewhere else. Later on, he become martyr in the land of Egypt, in Alexandria especially, because the way that they torture him, they tied him to the tail of a horse and they started to drag him around all the street of Alexandria at that time. So back to the year 68AD.

Vic Francis

This is Mark, and it was at Easter time. I believe that that happened.

Fr Bishoy

You know all the history. Why should I talk?

Vic Francis

I'm no expert on the history, that's for sure.

Fr Bishoy

Yes.

Vic Francis

And Mark to us, we're talking about the author of the Gospel of Mark?

Fr Bishoy

Second Gospel in the New Testament. Correct. Also, he was becoming the founder of the first liturgy that later on was being modified by pope, his name Pope Cyril, ah, to become the liturgy of Saint Cyril, but the origin of it is Saint Mark. That he left us a liturgy to start with, later on being modified.

Vic Francis

I've always loved the story in the scriptures that you relate to of him being left. But Paul's in prison and he sends for Mark'cause he is useful to me. Talking about the same person?

Fr Bishoy

A lot of benefit for me after he heard about what Saint Mark did and that, you know, Vic, gave us as human a hope. Doesn't matter what people say that I'm a failure, maybe in the front of some people I'm a failure, but in the front of God I'm not. Yeah. God is preparing him for a certain mission. Yeah. So I don't wanna hear anyone criticising anyone and say, Hey, you have no hope. That's nonsense. Yeah. Through Saint Mark, we know very well. There is always hope. God has a plan for every one of us.

Vic Francis

It's certainly an inspiring story to me and hopefully, you know, to many who might listen to us here. You've mentioned persecution and martyrdom, starting I guess with Mark in that Easter in 68 AD. Yeah. On your website you say, we are amazed how our fathers and our martyrs withstood their sufferings. How they were unshaken, how they conquered, and how their honoured blood, which was shed, destroyed the weapons of the evil kings and rulers. It's not easy being a Coptic believer, probably today, but, but historically, martyrdom has been part of the story of your church.

Fr Bishoy

Look, Vic, can I tell you something? Like, if you're gonna go back to the Old Testament in the book of Exodus, chapter one, when Pharaoh started to see that the number of the Hebrew started to increase, and you remember what happened, that he said that every baby boy, he has to be thrown in the river and die. Remember that?

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

And there's a verse there, that the more they persecuted them, they increased the number. That is written in the book of Exodus. For us as Christian, we always look at the blood of the martyr as the seed, that sometimes the devil, he tried to stop Christianity. So number one, he started with persecution and then he found that the more someone die, his blood will attract other people to Christianity. When they see how advanced they were in the faith of Christ and they did not care about their position, their rank, if they were soldiers or they not worried about their families. You know? So a lot of people used to believe.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

So after they behead one of the martyr you can find a lot of people shouted, we are Christian. So the devil and his kingdom, you know the devil, he is the prince of this world. So number one, he tried to threaten us by death. But for us as Christian, we know that the truth is we are heavenly as the Lord said, you are holy, holy being, not earthly.

Vic Francis

Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

So when we say that this will bring us to where we're supposed to be in heaven. Earth you are a stranger here. As David the prophet, he said, I'm a stranger in this world. Do not hide your commandments from me. So if we live as a strangers, as the early father used to move from a place to place in a tent, and the Jewish used to celebrate one of the feasts of the tabernacle and they used to stay in tent to remember the time when they left Egypt and they stayed in the wilderness for 40 years. So regardless where we are, when I remember that I used to live in a tent, my body is like a tent. I'm gonna take off this tent one day. So actually persecution did not succeed. Even in the modern time when you heard about any persecution still happening, it's actually strengthened us more.

Vic Francis

Yes.

Fr Bishoy

We still having the 21 Martys of Libya that happened in the year 2015 from Isis. And their families, they were praying for those who killed their sons and husbands, and he said, we hope that the Lord will guide those people, you know, who killed our sons and husband to believe in Christ. Hmm. So we kind of persecution strengthen us. It didn't scare us, but actually make us more a stronger church.

Vic Francis

What is it like to be a Coptic believer in Egypt today?

Fr Bishoy

Every day you walk in the street, you always witness to Christ because definitely sometimes you're gonna find, there is some ways, you know, like to, to, to shake your faith. So definitely the more that we believe in God. We always witness to Christ with love to everyone among us. We have no hate'cause Christ, he always advise us how to deal with everyone. We are having a mission here to be light to the world.

Vic Francis

Yes.

Fr Bishoy

But we're not gonna, you know, like feel bad toward anyone who persecutes us. We're gonna tell him, thank you for allowing us to suffer for the sake of Christ. We pray for them. We have no hate to anyone.

Vic Francis

I remember, uh, once, it might be 10 years ago, joining you and some other ministers and members of your church and a vigil in Aotea S quare in Auckland.

Fr Bishoy

Yes.

Vic Francis

Uh, when some Coptic believers had been killed. And I remember walking away from that with my wife and her, her observation was, y ou never see the psalms of persecution the same as when you stand with people who are being persecuted. Yeah, it was something I'd never experienced. Never experienced persecution. Most New Zealanders haven't, but there we were just for that moment, at least, reading psalms or, you know, praying prayers that related to persecution. It was a very powerful and moving moment.

Fr Bishoy

Correct. Can I tell you something like, Vic, regarding this point? We talked about persecution for Christian or Coptic Church in Egypt. Mm-hmm. But can I tell you the truth? The devil way is he will try to find a way to make us, you know, split from the faith or leave Christ. Mm-hmm. So number one, persecution. Number two, which is more harsh. Heresies. Persecution did not separate us as Christian. So when that time of persecution happened, we used to be one Christian.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

We never heard about Orthodox or Catholic or Protestant. Never. We all one. When heresies came, the devil started to play in the faith of the Christian themself. So you find that the split started to happen. But to me, nowadays, the real persecution is, is not someone to kill Christian. But the devil will try to make us forget about the commandments of God, immoralities that some Christian accept. This is persecution.

Vic Francis

Mm-hmm.

Fr Bishoy

When I don't follow the commandments of God fully, it's a persecution. So the devil will try to make me forget about, for example, my body as a temple of God. Whoever defile this temple, you know, so God will destroy it. For the temple of God is holy. Mm-hmm. So for us as Christian, we need to witness to Christ because we have persecution even in New Zealand, from the devil, he tried to make us forget about what God want us to be like, to live in harmony, to resist sin, and to live the life of repentance. This is, to me, every day we go to work, we find persecution there, when we walk in the street, at school. When any bad addiction happen, pornography, for example, or addiction to drugs, or addiction to any bad habits. It's a persecution. So it's not just you're the one who is gonna hold the sword. We are gonna say that he's the one who is gonna separate us from God, but even this kind of moralities, and forget about the commandments. It's a persecution every day.

Vic Francis

I think at that point we might take a break. And when we come back, I'm going to talk to Father Bishoy a little more about what it's like to be a Coptic Church in New Zealand. Where does it fit? What does this have to offer? So, uh, we'll be right back. Welcome back to Father Bishoy Mekhaiel, and our fascinating window into the Coptic Church in New Zealand. And maybe we should begin the segment by exploring just that. Father Bishoy, what do you and your church bring to the church in New Zealand? And what does the church in New Zealand maybe bring to you as you live here?

Fr Bishoy

I believe like it's so good, you know, like to have the sense of people can come to the Coptic Church and to see part of the history of Christian from a different, you know, area of the world, from Africa, from Egypt itself, you know, with all the history of the pyramids and the ancient Pharaoh, because like actually, like, especially in Holy Week, you will find a lot of representing, you know, the time when they used to bury the Pharoahs of Egypt. So you feel it's a funeral time, especially at the time of Good Friday when we remember the Lord who died on the cross. So we are having very special at the end of the day, after 10 hours of continuous prayer. Hmm. With no food, with no drink, without anything from the night before, we conclude with a beautiful hymns called Golgotha. Golgotha mean that the place where the Lord was crucified. Yeah. So for us to be part of New Zealand, I'm sure we are giving a chance for people to witness a different ritual, a different way of prayer, to understand how the Lord's, when he asked his disciple to go and spread his word to the whole world. So we are here in New Zealand and all the way to Egypt. Mm-hmm. There is Christian there. So definitely some people will be wondering, is there any Christianity in Egypt? We are here to say yes and we are having really strong faith that we really need to continue. And our church only comes from migration by the way. So in any part of New Zealand, we are having five Coptic church, two in the North Island, Auckland and Wellington, and three churches in the South Island, Christchurch, Timaru and Dunedin. So this church did not come from nowhere. Any congregation, they get a job in New Zealand, they start to think, oh, we need to follow the faith of our Coptic church. So after they started to enter years by number, then they called the church in Egypt. We need a priest to come and serve. We are here in New Zealand, part of the Diocese of Melbourne. Okay. So we're having a bishop. Mm. So when any request, they will contact the bishop and we'll try to facilitate, you know, for a priest to come according to the ability of the church to cover the cost for a priest to be able to serve. Yes. So definitely we having an amazing friendship. Like for example, in our church in Beach Haven. Mm-hmm. We meet with all the ministers in our area. Yes. Once a month. We're celebrating Easter by having Easter walk, so we walk in the street carrying the cross. If we have a prayer on our church, you're gonna find all the crowd coming from Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, you know, name it. So we all come to read chapters from the Bible according to the reading of Saint Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. So we read the part about the crucifixion. It's amazing atmosphere for New Zealand or the outlander to come and enter to our church and the, oh, look at this icon. We don't have that. Yeah. Yeah. So you can see that there is an amazing way that the Christianity is spread everywhere in the world, you know? So I believe it's so good to have different varieties. When you go to a restaurant, you gonna, or banquet, you gonna find every one of us pick up one kind of food, one kind. So now we're having a variety of food, you know, kind special food.

Vic Francis

Do you and your church members feel welcome in New Zealand and welcome in the church in New Zealand, or are you sometimes treated as a little bit of an oddity?

Fr Bishoy

No, not at all. I never or anyone of our congregation said anything like that, we always feel we are welcomed. We are happy to be part of New Zealand. As I mentioned, I lived in Egypt for 25 years, 12 years in Melbourne and now here, 26 till now, New Zealand become my home. Yes, yes. So I'm in New Zealand more than Egypt. More than Melbourne. Yes. So I consider myself a real Kiwi. Yeah. And I'm pleased to be here.

Vic Francis

You're real Kiwi. I love that. What are the challenges for you over the next couple of generations? Because obviously the children of your, uh, congregation members perhaps are, are raised in a more Western environment. Is that a challenge to you as a church?

Fr Bishoy

I believe that challenge will not only be for us as Coptic Orthodox, but will be the challenge for every minister. Right. Yeah. Because whatever our boys and girls are facing, you gonna find all the boys and girls are fighting in any Protestant or Catholic or Anglican or whatever. So it's a challenge because the devil, he is the ruler of this world. He tried to separate us and we always say, Vic, that the church without youth is a church without future. Yes. So I would say that church is strong as long as you see a lot of youth participating, praying, coming to Bible study and believe in Christ and try to separate themselves from all, you know, the lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes, the pride of life, what we all facing every day. So definitely we all facing this together. For me, I always wish to have a new priest, that he is raised here in New Zealand, in the Coptic Church, to be ordained, a young one, and a priest in our church has to be married. So I'm looking forward for this, because in our church, I have big hope to some of our wonderful youth to be one day become a priest, and that way you relate to all the issue of the children have. I come from Egypt, but when I have a priest born in New Zealand, I fulfilled my desire. Yes, that is my desire. This is my hope. I want someone born here, know the culture, know everything. He would relate to the kids more.

Vic Francis

That will be an amazing moment, won't it? And it will be an investment into the future of, of the church in New Zealand.

Fr Bishoy

Hundred percent. That's what I'm hoping for.

Vic Francis

You know, this podcast we call it For Pastors and our catch line is to champion pastors in their holy calling in an uncertain world. Because I think pastoring is a holy calling, and the world is definitely uncertain. I wanna ask you a question that I ask of all of my guests on the podcast, and, and that is what gives you hope?

Fr Bishoy

What give me hope is always like we try to remember who we are and why we are called to serve Christ. If I understand that, I will understand exactly what God want from every one of us. My hope is to always remember, as Saint Paul, he mentioned in First Corinthians chapter three, he said, who is Paul and who is Apollos? One, he planted the seed? One, he watered, and the Lord himself is gonna give the increase.

Vic Francis

God gives the increase. Yeah.

Fr Bishoy

So I want always to remember that we need to do the little thing that we can do. Our hope is to continue serving Christ and not to be full of pride as ministers,'cause sometimes I feel happy when people praise me. I don't want this praise to come to me personally. I wanna remember, as Saint John the Baptist always used to refer to Christ and say, he must be increased and I must be decreased.

Vic Francis

Father Bishoy, one of the things again that I, I love for this podcast is to pray for the pastors of our country. And would you be willing to do that as we come towards the conclusion of the podcast today?

Fr Bishoy

I'll be happy to pray, as long as all the pastor and minister, we gonna pray for me too.

Vic Francis

Oh, indeed. Indeed.

Fr Bishoy

Because I need your prayers. In the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. We thank our compassionate Lord. We thank our Lord from the depth of our heart that you allow us, our Lord, to serve together in this beautiful country, our Lord. You allowed us to come here, our Lord, not just to establish a church, but to live Christianity, our Lord, and to learn from each other, how beautiful it is for brethren to work together in unity. Yes, our Lord. We need to pray for one another because without prayer, without fasting, we'll not be able to cast out demons. You gave us the direction, our Lord. Make us always remember, our Lord, when we ever feel tired of service or sometimes we facing challenges, we facing some hurdle in our service. We need to remember you, the owner of the vineyard, you the one our Lord who sent servant to serve, you allowed us to serve, our Lord. So this is your service. And we serving your sons and daughter. We ask, our Lord, to strengthen every minister, every pastor, our Lord, every church, our Lord,'cause we're having a mission here, our Lord, that we are against the world. We are here to give hope to our congregation that there is a loving God, that you loved us, and we need everyone to believe our Lord, whatever we face in this life, that all things work together for good for those who love God, help us, our Lord, and always during this amazing time that we are about to approach our Lord all the year, we're celebrating many, many wonderful feasts, our Lord, if nativity, if resurrection, if any other feast, our Lord, we go through. We need to learn how much you loved us. We loved you because you loved us first, our Lord, you gave us a hope, our Lord, when you went to the cross and you gave us a condition, if you want to be my disciple, carry your cross. And when we follow you, our Lord, we know that means that we're going to die, but you give us resurrection when we die with you, we'll be resurrected also with you. Help us, our Lord, and fill our heart with joy and peace and all our congregation, every sick person you stretch your hand, our Lord, to give him healing according to your Word and make us always thankful to whatever you allow us to go through, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Vic Francis

Amen. And we do pray for Father Bishoy, because he's asked us to. So on behalf of the pastors of New Zealand, we pray for you. We bless you. Thank you for his church, his congregation, his coming Easter celebrations, the five churches, uh, that are represented in New Zealand. We do thank you and ask that you'll be with them in Jesus' name. So Father Bishoy, I wanna say welcome. I know that you're a Kiwi now, you've been here 26 years, but you're still new in the landscape and your churches are new in the landscape. And New Zealand itself has changed a lot, even in your 26 years. But over the last, uh, 40 or 50 years with immigration and different expressions of Christian faith. And so I wanna thank you for being part of this changing landscape of the church in New Zealand. Thank you for the history, the, the resilience, the story, the colour, the light, and the love that you bring. And so we champion you too, in your holy calling in this uncertain world. God bless you.

Fr Bishoy

Thank you so much, Vic, I really appreciate that you asked me to come with you in these podcasts and praise the Lord. Bless your ministry.

Vic Francis

God bless you. It's been, it's such a privilege. God bless. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more information about us in the podcast notes, and I'm back in a fortnight with something completely different, an interview with the Rev Dr Karen Kemp from Laidlaw College on the vexed question of conflict. We all have it, so how do we deal with it in our churches? I do hope you'll join me. God bless.