Making Friends Out of Conflict

Conflict. It’s all around us – on the world stage, in our families and workplaces, often deep within ourselves.

And it’s in our churches – from the volume of the music to centuries-old theological debates.

Yet we hardly ever talk about conflict, and as a result we often do it pretty badly.

In this podcast, Vic Francis talks to the Rev Dr Karen Kemp from Laidlaw College, an expert in conflict, to find out how we can handle it better.

Welcome to Making Friends Out of Conflict.

If you want to know more, you can check out the Centre for Church Leadership Conflict Workshop/MasterClass, along with other Laidlaw Master Classes of interest.

Transcript

Vic Francis 0:00

Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and welcome to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. Conflict. It's all around us on the world stage, in our families and workplaces, often deep within ourselves. And it's in our churches, from the volume of the music to centuries old theological debates. Yet we hardly ever talk about conflict, and as a result we often do it pretty badly. In this podcast, I talk to the Rev Dr Karen Kemp from Laidlaw College, an expert in conflict, to find out how we can handle it much, much better. Welcome today to Making Friends Out of Conflict. Karen, welcome to the For Pastors podcast.

Karen Kemp 1:17

Hmm, thank you.

Vic Francis 1:19

It's great to have you here. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Karen Kemp 1:23

Well, I'm an ordained Anglican priest, and I work at Laidlaw College as a practical theologian and lecturer. And I also work in the Centre for Church Leadership at Laidlaw as a coach and supervisor and training our coaches. I live in Ōtautahi, I do life with my husband Hugh, a labrador and three chickens in a village on the outskirts. And we have three daughters, uh, all living away from home.

Vic Francis 1:56

Wow, that sounds like a busy life in all of those ministry areas. I love the practical theologian aspect,'cause I think that will help us in our conversation today. And I've invited you to talk on the podcast about conflict. It seems to me like conflict is an ever present reality in life. And no less for us as pastors, and maybe even more for us as pastors because of the people factor. F rom the volume of the music to theological positions to, you didn't wish me a happy birthday, we tend to be surrounded by this. And you're an expert in this area. And it goes way back to your childhood, I know. Where did you get that deep connection with conflict?

Karen Kemp 2:38

Yes. I grew up in Chile, in South America, and lived through the civil war that surrounded the Pinochet military coup. So I was just a, a tween at the time and I had very close friendships and relationships on both sides of that divide. One of my close friends, I saw him as an older brother, was tortured under Pinochet, and another one was in the military and was seriously injured in the fighting. So right from a very young age, I was very aware of the personal relational impacts of conflict and what that did to the community that I was part of. And of course then going through life, I worked with marginalised indigenous people in the south of Chile and again had to tend to the wounds of a victim of torture, knowing that I was putting myself in danger by doing that. So that was a bit of a wake up call in my twenties.

Vic Francis 3:43

Oh my.

Karen Kemp 3:43

And then missions work, in a pioneer mission setting in Mongolia, where there was a high missionary attrition, not because people fell out with the locals, but because they fell out with each other.

Vic Francis 3:57

Oh, with each other.

Karen Kemp 3:59

And then coming back into more western churches, conflict is a perennial and it seems to be always there. So I've had this itch all through my life with the thought of actually there's gotta be a better way of doing this.

Vic Francis 4:15

Well, Karen, for those of us who may be avoidant to conflict, it is encouraging to me to know somebody who has actually invested in it in such a way. Uh, fast forward to today, and you teach on conflict with a structure that includes three Ts. You talk about theology, theory and tools. So why don't we start with theology? What has theology got to do with conflict?

Karen Kemp 4:43

Well, I would argue we can't separate theology or the Bible from conflict. Hmm. The love of God in scripture's inextricable from the love of neighbour, including my enemy. The Beatitudes tell us that peacemaking, as opposed to peacekeeping, is an identity marker, is what marks us out as children of God. The Lord's Prayer has that very sobering line that we say very easily, but hope we don't have to think too much, around our need to forgive others. And then Jesus' teaching also on conflict. You know, Matthew 18 falls in the lead up to Easter, actually, it's close to passion week. And the topic that Jesus chooses to go in depth with his disciples is how to deal with conflict in the community of faith. And then of course in 2 Corinthians 5, the Apostle Paul is very clear that the core business of the church is actually the ministry of reconciliation that's been entrusted to us. John Paul Lederach, who's a Mennonite peacemaker, peace lecturer, he argues that the biblical story of God's redemption cannot be told without enemies.

Vic Francis 6:12

Wow.

Karen Kemp 6:14

So it's quite profound, I think.

Vic Francis 6:17

It's fascinating to hear you come from that base. Everything in me wants to ask you, so how do we do it? Give us some clues, will you, Karen? But to come into a scripture basis takes us quite deep, I think. Is there a fundamental understanding of conflict in scripture that we can tap into?

Karen Kemp 6:37

I think the main thing is to remember that what we are leaning toward in the midst of conflict is always ultimately the restoration of relationship. Not the restoration of the same relationship, but the restoration of relationship going forward. And I think if we lose sight of that, we can go some rather strange places and engage conflict in some odd ways. I think another theological principle I would put in there is that God's way of putting things right is always risky and it's the costly, sacrificial path of reconciliation. If I look at Jesus' leadership, that's another really good model. Jesus as a leader, a model of sacrificial servanthood, not brute strength and dominance.

Vic Francis 7:31

Mm-hmm.

Karen Kemp 7:31

So instead of violence, there's gentleness; instead of hatred, there's love, that's poured out for all, regardless of who they are or where they stand. The entire story of the Bible is the story of God's covenantal love and enduring patience and his efforts to reconcile all things in Christ. There's no outsiders in there.

Vic Francis 7:55

It does seem that we haven't been shining lights of reconciliation or doing conflict well, even if you look at the history of the church.

Karen Kemp 8:03

No. Absolutely. One of my favourite quotes, and I say this so often, it rolls off my tongue, but it confronts me every time, is Stanley Hauerwas once said that if those of us who say we follow a reconciling God fail to reconcile ourselves with one another, then a broken world looking on could be forgiven for believing that the God we believe in is a false God who can't deliver.

Vic Francis 8:35

Is conflict different, if you're a Christian, than if you are not a Christian? I mean, conflict still happens, you still might have an argument with someone or a misunderstanding. What is the fundamental difference for us as believers?

Karen Kemp 8:50

I don't think conflict is actually too different in churches per se. As humans, we're all prone to reacting badly to conflict. So the psychological dimensions of conflict I think are pretty much the same. But what is different is that a lot of us hold a misguided theology that says that conflict itself as opposed to our reactions to it is wrong or sinful. Which means that it predisposes us to be more conflict averse, to put the lid on it, to pretend it's not there. We're hardwired to be nice to each other, so this means that church conflicts often simmer way a lot longer and become increasingly entrenched so that when they do finally erupt, they're actually a lot uglier than they might have been if we'd been proactive about it earlier on.

Vic Francis 9:47

Well, so does that mean avoiding conflict could be just as sinful as doing conflict badly?

Karen Kemp 9:55

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Vic Francis 9:58

Wow, what a thought. For all of us as we're trying to be nice to each other, we might actually be making a big mistake.

Karen Kemp 10:04

Mm-hmm.

Vic Francis 10:05

So for pastors, what are the theological truths that might help us approach conflict, within our congregations, whether we are involved or whether it's between people in our congregation?

Karen Kemp 10:17

I think the primary one is to re-centre reconciliation and restoration of relationship, to really get a hold of the fact that the telos of God's big story is that all will be reconciled in and through Christ. And so we lean into that in every conflict situation. When we are tempted to see conflict as an interruption to our ministry, we need to remind ourselves that working through conflict toward reconciliation is the real ministry that we're called to.

Vic Francis 10:51

Mm-hmm.

Karen Kemp 10:52

And so that says to me that we need to take time to learn about this stuff, to find ways to work robustly in the midst of conflict, in ways that honour God and honour the people that we're dealing with.

Vic Francis 11:06

This is the purpose, I guess, of this podcast'cause it's mainly for pastors, so I'm wondering how a proper theology of conflict might shape the way that we shepherd people.

Karen Kemp 11:16

Well, I think the bottom line is it means that we never write someone off. No matter who they are, what they've done, the gospel says that we don't write anybody off. No one is beyond the reach of God's love and reconciliation. That doesn't mean candy coating people's failings or sins, but it does mean exercising what I like to call a compassionate realism in our dealings with them. So that's about remembering that we need to bring a posture of humility to our pastoral care, that humility that appreciates that we have a shared, flawed, broken, incompletely redeemed humanity no matter who we are. And then also, I think shepherding people in this space means finding the practical initiatives that will support restoration as opposed to dealing with the issue. So often we come into a conflict and it's the issue that's standing in sharp relief. And so we need to actually find some tools to dive a bit deeper than the presenting issue and find what's really going on so we can work with the roots of what's happened.

Vic Francis 12:41

I love that phrase, compassionate realism. It accepts that there are issues here, but compassion is part of the way that we go about that. And it can be hard,'cause when you're in conflict, you're sometimes, um, not at your best yourself. The person you're in conflict with may not be at their best either. So, compassionate realism, I like. I wanna throw a little pastoral conflict to you, Karen. This is one that has happened to me in my pastoral life, and just see whether you got any comment on it. What could have been, or what should have been. So I got called as a fairly young pastor to a couple whose marriage was in difficulty. And in the middle of the conversation, the couple started fighting quite angrily, and the husband stood up and he said, right, that's it. And he stormed outta the house. And literally, that was the end of their marriage right there in front of my eyes. Pastors are in those situations from time to time. How do we go about that?

Karen Kemp 13:44

It just sounds like such a real scenario. I don't think there's any candy coating the challenges of that space. So I think, first and foremost, if we are the pastor in that situation, we need to remember that we can only minister to the person who's in front of us in the moment. So the first question is always going to be what does the person that's left in the room need right now?

Vic Francis 14:11

Thank you. Yeah.

Karen Kemp 14:12

It's also really important to just even take a deep breath and remember that ultimately the way people respond, or what happens going forward, it's not our job to fix things. It's our job to navigate the space with people so that God can do what he wants to do through us, but in them ultimately. So I think ministering to the wife who's left, and then maybe at some point spending some time with the husband who left, uh, are really important things. We can only minister to who's in front of us in the moment. The second thing I'd say that's really vital, especially in those marriage situations, is that reconciliation is never going back to the way things were. Reconciliation is a genesis event. Mm-hmm. And like the genesis new creation, it comes often out of chaos. Mm-hmm. And so what comes on the other side is always a renegotiated space. So success in walking through a marriage conflict, success is about restoring a relationship, but also accepting it may not be the relationship that was there before. And it may include actually living separately, but having found some way of restoring a new relationship. It may also mean bringing them together into marriage counselling, when each is ready, and beginning to build their second marriage, because that's what they're doing.

Vic Francis 15:56

Wow. So yes, that's success. They're in their second marriage, that's a really helpful thought. And probably at that time, I would've been hoping to bring that couple back together in their first marriage, if I can sort of spin off your language. So what a helpful thing. And I think it's a good point for us to take a break and when we return, we'll move to the theory of conflict and I might throw another real-life conflict scenario at Karen at some stage as well. So we'll be right back. Karen Kemp, welcome back to For Pastors, an episode where we're focusing on conflict. And we've talked in the first segment about reconciliation always being our end point and, or maybe but, we never get to go back to the way things were. As we think, Karen, about the theology of conflict, is there anything else that would help us in this conversation?

Karen Kemp 17:49

Yes, I think just really briefly, just like we need a theology for understanding conflict as a whole, we also really need to develop a robust theology of the enemy of our posture from a theological perspective. Alan Kreida says an enemy is someone we talk about, not to. And I think even just there, that means that most of us can't get away with saying, well, I don't have enemies.

Vic Francis 18:17

Mm-hmm.

Karen Kemp 18:17

So it's identifying that enemies are first, we recreate them in our own minds and they grow the more we talk about their failings and rehearse them with other people. It's a really important thing to hold onto, that w e need an understanding of the place of enemies in God's story of reconciliation and our need to be attentive to that as a specific way of dealing with things.

Vic Francis 18:45

So important. Thank you for that, Karen. Uh, we go back into the training that you do or the classes that you teach and you have those three Ts that we talked about. So there's theology, there's theory and there are tools which we'll get to, but what is the theory of conflict? I don't even think I know what the theory of conflict means when you use it as a term. So tell me about that.

Karen Kemp 19:08

Well, of course conflict, you can place it on a continuum, really, from a mild disagreement all the way through to some of the things we're seeing playing out in the world around us today, where people are willing to drop bombs and do terrible things to each other. But, I think the main theory around conflict would be, or there'd be two things in there, is that change and conflict go hand in hand. And I think, especially in church communities, that's something we have to wrap our heads around is that whenever even somebody's mere arrival at a new place or a new pastorate should function as a flag for us that conflict will follow in some way, shape or form. The second thing is to name that from a psychological perspective, conflict is almost always a precondition for growth, maturity and transformation. So from that perspective, conflict can be whatever it is that tosses us out of our, our waka and we find ourselves floundering and reacting in ways that are not our usual calm and centred selves.

Vic Francis 20:22

Wow. So let's celebrate conflict, eh, because that's gonna make me who I'm supposed to be.

Karen Kemp 20:28

Mm. Ouch.

Vic Francis 20:29

Oh yeah. Ouch. Ouch. I love that. It's probably worth us thinking again about those principles of change and conflict going hand in hand. It's almost like a universal principle, isn't it?

Karen Kemp 20:45

Yes. And it can be, as you say, anything from a minor shift. You know, in some places moving the pulpit can be a full conflict.

Vic Francis 20:54

Moving the pulpit.

Karen Kemp 20:55

But also it can be changes that happen at us, things like loss of a job or loss of someone close to us through death or loss of health. All of these changes have a personal impact that then predispose us to reacting quite differently when an extra burden or an extra question comes our way.

Vic Francis 21:20

I wonder whether we need to be aware of that a little. I dunno why I'm so grumpy, or I dunno why I'm in conflict. Oh, that changed. Maybe that's the cause.

Karen Kemp 21:30

Yes. And this is another place where we need to exercise compassionate realism f or ourselves as much as for other people.

Vic Francis 21:39

Yep. Beautiful. And I'm really taken with that second point, that conflict is always a precondition, I think the words you used were growth, maturity and transformation. Maybe dipping back into theology, it feels like God then is using conflict for me to grow, mature and be transformed.

Karen Kemp 21:59

Yes. And it's good to remember that conflict is always formative. Conflict will always form us, and so the way we engage with it will determine what that formation looks like. Whether that formation makes us more like Jesus, or whether that formation hardens and embitters us. So the formational dimension of conflict is a non-negotiable. It's happening and it's up to us really to navigate it in ways that either lead to deeper christlikeness, deeper humility, more compassion, or a more entrenched, defended kind of posture.

Vic Francis 22:46

We have to be quite self-aware, I suppose. How is this affecting me? Am I being bitter or am I letting go somewhere along the line?

Karen Kemp 22:56

And I think for those of us who are in ministry, that's where having a supervisor or a coach or a spiritual director that we can process what is happening for us and in us in the midst of conflict is really important.

Vic Francis 23:11

So important. I know Karen, over decades now of ministry, one of the things that I have come to is whenever I go into a really difficult situation, I know it's gonna be difficult, I sort of have this resolve that I've learned to create internally that this is gonna be hard, but I want to maintain integrity, I suppose, in this situation. And I want to grow and learn. And I'm certainly not saying that I do that brilliantly or anything, but it's really helped me to be in conflict situations. Maybe not to avoid them as much as I'd like to, but to know that out the other side of this I'm going to be a different person, hopefully a better person, maybe, maybe not always. But is that the sort of approach that we could take?

Karen Kemp 23:58

Yes, I think so. And to bring a posture of curiosity actually to what's happening, because what we haven't named is that yes, there's some psychological dynamics around conflict, but there's also those fight, flight physiological responses which kick in whether we want them there or not. And so we have to find ways to physically settle ourselves when we find ourselves in conflict. So don't underestimate the power of understanding what's happening in your own body and finding ways to slow your breathing, even simple things like breathing in for four breaths and then breathing out for longer than you breathed in actually settles that part of our nervous system.

Vic Francis 24:51

I'm practising that even as you speak, Karen. I'm practising doing that. What a great thing that we can do. I, I mean, literally, in the middle of a conflict situation, we could be doing that?

Karen Kemp 25:01

Yes, I think so. When we get to talking about tools in a moment, we'll find that nearly all the tools that we use, the primary intention behind them is to slow things down. Ah, yeah. So one of the things about conflict is that it escalates, a little bit like when we put a match to a piece of kindling, it will reach that critical point where it just erupts into flame. And what we're doing with conflict tools and even with settling our own bodies, is just slowing things down so that we become responsive rather than reactive to what's happening in front of us.

Vic Francis 25:42

In a church scenario, are there sort of any key dynamics or patterns that pastors should be aware of? You know, we're dealing with dozens of people or maybe hundreds of people. There are different ages, there are different stages of life, there are different needs, different faith stages. The potential for conflict is all around us.

Karen Kemp 26:01

Yes, and in fact, you could even say that faith communities, unlike most other communities, we're set up to fail in that sense that we're set up for conflict. Which is an interesting thought, isn't it? That in some ways we are a laboratory for ongoing transformation and from that point of view, churches are ultimately like the training ground for being able to be the reconcilers we are called to be in the world. But coming back to some of the dynamics that cause conflict in congregations, don't underestimate the power of role ambiguity and power differences to create conflict amongst people. Unexamined assumptions about money, resources and theology. You fill the gaps in there, unexamined assumptions that we bring to our relating within the community of faith. Poor communication and lack of listening skills amongst the leadership, I think are some of the top things that bring about conflict. Leadership styles and expectations. There are maybe some leadership styles that are not conducive to a stable community, but it's more the expectations dimension. And I think that plays out intergenerationally, particularly, different generations have different ways of understanding and responding to leadership. So being in tune with that is important. Denominational differences. This is an interesting one, because in recent years, people move around churches for many other reasons than the denominational flavour of it. And so increasingly our churches have people in them that are from a different denominational background. And even though the people dynamics have changed, the polity of those denominations hasn't. And so especially when newcomers step into maybe a leadership role in their new church, conflict often happens because they come right up front and close to the polity of that denomination, how decisions are made, who has the ultimate say in a decision? And they all look different, whether you're Baptist, Anglican, Vineyard, or whoever you are.

Vic Francis 28:29

Absolutely so. We're coming to the end of our second segment here. I wanna throw to you, Karen, another pastoral conflict area. This is more of an inner conflict. I think other pastors would relate to it, but I'll tell you my own story. I, I have felt throughout my pastoral life a great tension around the late night text or email that says, can I come and see you tomorrow? There's something I want to talk to you about. And I immediately feel a tension internally as much as anything. Have I done something wrong? Do they not like something? Are they going to leave? Those are probably the things that I would think and some sleepless nights over the years. How do we work with our internal conflict? Because we will all have some sort of internal conflict around our relationship with our church and our people.

Karen Kemp 29:18

That's a really good question. I know myself, I've lost a lot of sleep over the years, over those scenarios. Coming back to the principle of we can only deal with what's in front of us, another thing to remember here is to actually know that how we deal with our own inner workings is going to be the main thing. There's no point worrying about what the other person's going to say or how they're going to react. That is out of our control. But what is in our control is to be fully present to God and the work of his Spirit in those moments. And invite God to come in and remind us of who we are, of what we are called to, and trust, trust that God will be there with us in the midst of whatever's coming the following day. And also just to remind ourselves that what's happening or what might be happening now maybe something that happened in the past that's triggering our response and reaction.

Vic Francis 30:20

Yeah. And maybe part of that slowing down thing too. I know for me, if I'm awake at night, my mind is racing. So even your breathing, breathing in and breathing out longer than the inward breath, may be a helpful thing.

Karen Kemp 30:35

I think scripture is another place. It sounds like a no brainer, doesn't it? But we forget that diving into the Psalms can be hugely encouraging and sustaining of us in those more difficult moments.

Vic Francis 30:50

Yeah. I know many a night I have just rhythmically prayed the 23rd Psalm has been so helpful for me in those times. Not necessarily in getting to sleep, but in calming me in some way. Well, Karen, thank you for helping us understand this important and often complicated matter around conflict. And we're gonna take a short break and when we return we're gonna talk about some tools that we can use when we find ourselves in conflict. So we'll be right back. Welcome back, Karen Kemp, as we attempt to make our way through what can be the minefield of conflict. Karen, you teach a workshop on conflict. Can you tell us what that is and maybe when your next one is, if you have it planned?

Karen Kemp 32:04

So, the Centre for Church Leadership, we offer a full day workshop. And it's a workshop rather than a lecture series. It's really practical. We basically look at pretty much the framework that we've covered today. We have a brief look at the theology for conflict, we look at our own history of reacting to conflict, what our preferred settings are in the midst of conflict. Then we take a deeper dive into just the psychology and the theory of conflict. What's going on for us. A bit of a look at forgiveness, which we haven't touched on at all, because I think that's another whole podcast actually.

Vic Francis 32:42

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karen Kemp 32:43

And then some tools. So everybody who comes leaves with a theology, a deeper understanding of what the dynamics are in conflict, and then they all leave with tools that they can literally apply when their kids squabble over who's doing the dishes that evening. So it's highly interactive and very practical.

Vic Francis 33:05

Sounds very worthwhile. Are these regular?

Karen Kemp 33:07

At the moment, they are by request. So you can jump on the website and request a workshop. Typically, they work best when they're done with a staff team and maybe home group leaders. Mm-hmm. So at that kind of level.

Vic Francis 33:22

Well, we'll, um, put a link to that in the podcast notes, and so people can get in contact with you in that way. So coming to tools, we've talked about theory and we've talked about theology. We come to tools. We've mentioned a few of the conflicts that are so common in churches, the music's too loud, the slides are the wrong colour, the coffee's lukewarm, my child isn't getting anything out of Sunday school, you are not feeding me with your teaching. There's all sorts of things that come up big and small. So give us some help here, Karen. What are some small changes maybe that could produce the biggest impact?

Karen Kemp 33:57

So the main thing to remember is that anything we do in this tool space is aimed to slow things down so that we can figure out what's actually going on before jumping in with a solution to whatever the problem is. So, small changes that we can make, to learn to recognise and work proactively with relational triangles. We used to be taught to avoid triangulation and relationships, but more recent research shows that actually they're part of how society and groups actually holds together.

Vic Francis 34:33

Okay, so tell us about triangles.

Karen Kemp 34:36

Yeah. So, if you've heard of Karpman's Drama Triangle, that's when a situation emerges between three people, where you have one person who's located as the persecutor, one person is located as the victim, and one person is located as a rescuer. And these situations happen almost every day in some form or another. And they happen whenever somebody comes to us and tells us about a third party and what's going on, what's being done to them, what they're doing to others, and immediately there you have a triangle. So learning to notice those and immediately go into a healthy approach to that triangle is absolutely vital if you're in leadership.

Vic Francis 35:26

Wonderful. So tell me those three corners again.

Karen Kemp 35:30

There's the victim, the person who feels they've been wronged, who's usually the one telling the story. The persecutor is usually that third party who's done something terrible. And then the rescuer is usually the listener, the person who's been told the story. And what often happens is, the victim shares the story about the persecutor with the rescuer, who listens and shows compassion and empathy and sometimes even offers to help to go to the persecutor themselves and sort them out, and it makes the victim feel better, momentarily, and it makes the rescuer feel quite good about themselves because they've made the victim feel better. The persecutor will at some point often end up talking with the rescuer, especially if the rescuer's gone into rescue and the rescuer calms the farm a little bit and tries to ease things out. So the persecutor then gets to put their view on what's happened and the rescuer empathises with them. So the persecutor feels great and the rescuer feels great, but actually the line that joins the persecutor and the victim still has not been joined. Yeah. And as long as that isn't joined up, all we are doing is just deferring the conflict, the relational conflict for another day.

Vic Francis 37:08

So the resolution is between the victim and the persecutor. And just thinking back to what you said before, that relationship's never gonna be the same again once the reconciliation does take place. But nevertheless, that's a role that we can play as we will normally be the rescuer, I guess, in the conversation.

Karen Kemp 37:26

Yes. So as rescuers, it's really important that if we've been located in that place, which we usually are, the most important thing we can do as adopt a coaching posture, which means be curious about what's happened and support the person to go and sort the issue as opposed to taking over what they're doing.

Vic Francis 37:50

Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about the conflict tree. How can we work with that as a method?

Karen Kemp 37:57

Yeah, the conflict tree comes out of a peace, international peace building space. But it's a very simple tool where if you can imagine you're drawing a tree on a page, the foliage of the tree are all the things that you can see, hear, touch and sense with your five senses. You hear angry voices, slamming doors. There's people gossiping about other people. There's people writing petitions, maybe, whatever it is, you put them up in the foliage. So you identify what you see happening and then you step back from that and ask the question, where might this be coming from? What's the tap root that's feeding these symptoms? So the conflict tree helps us to realise that the real problem isn't the symptoms, that what we identify as the issue are actually usually symptoms of a deeper problem. And down at the roots level we've got all that list that I mentioned earlier. We've got things like poor communication, role ambiguities, uh, differing theologies, different understandings of leadership, whatever it might be. And so if we get down to that level, we can start to ask, so where's the gap where we need to educate or inform or communicate, where are the places where we could be attending better to the structures, the way we do things. So it shifts the conversation actually to a whole other level. At the foliage level, the people are often identified as the problem. So, you know, Mrs So and So always gossips.

Vic Francis 39:47

Yeah.

Karen Kemp 39:47

Sometimes, not always, gossip is a symptom that there's not a viable process or channel for somebody to air whatever issues they have.

Vic Francis 40:01

So that's further down the tree, I guess, it's that structural thing?

Karen Kemp 40:03

Yes. Yeah, so the tree helps us to identify, to slow things down and identify not only what's actually going on, but also where the roots of that are and how then we might be able to deal with the root issues rather than just put a bandaid on the symptoms.

Vic Francis 40:23

We come back to that slowing things down idea again. And you've talked about actually drawing that conflict tree. I know there's a method that you work with three circles on a page. Are you able to tell us about that?

Karen Kemp 40:35

Yes, that one's even simpler. And you can even scrawl that in the middle of a meeting somewhere if you find yourself struggling. It's literally get an A4 piece of paper, put three circles on it. The first circle is, in this situation, what is it that I need to own? And then in a second circle, what is it in this situation that belongs to other people? And name that for yourself. So, going back to the marriage situation we talked about earlier, what belongs to you is to minister to the person in front of you. What belongs to others is their reaction and responses to that ministry. Yeah. So it separates things out. And then the third circle is, what only belongs to God here? And actually put it in there and hand it back because it's not mine to own.

Vic Francis 41:31

Yes, hand it back because it's not mine to own. So helpful. Such a straightforward idea. Harder to do, of course. Thinking of that thing of slowing down, which seems so important in terms of conflict, what are some of the simple, practical tools that we could use? So I'm in the middle of a conflict, or I'm anticipating a conflict. How else might I slow myself down?

Karen Kemp 41:57

One of the key things I think we can do to slow things down, especially if we're in the midst of a conversation, imagine a leaders meeting or a vestry parish council, whatever you call it in your denomination, a meeting of the staff where things have got rather heated and it feels like you're at a bit of a stalemate. People have taken sides, they've located themselves and it's feeling a bit graunchy. Don't underestimate the power of just leaning back in your chair for a moment and saying, there's a lot of energy, different energies in this room. Why don't we take a break, take a bit of a walk, grab a coffee and come back. And then when you do come back, just take a few moments in silence and invite the Holy Spirit into that space. So that slows things down. The physical movement actually deals with some of those physiological responses, it loosens all those tight muscles and tension and having a drink helps people to connect over something other than the issue that's being discussed. And then coming back and just recentring, actually, we are the people of God wrestling with some very real issues. Holy Spirit, come and help us.

Vic Francis 43:23

I love that description and the de-escalation that we're gonna see in a scenario like that. Anything else that springs to mind?

Karen Kemp 43:33

I think when we are coming right back to how we deal with conflict or how we can prepare ourselves for conflict, don't underestimate the power of working with your own stuff at any time. Things like doing the school of emotionally healthy leadership is a big one to understand better where we are coming from. What is our conflict history, what's our family history actually, what is our predisposition in a conflict situation? Because knowing ourselves is going to be a big part of being able to navigate conflict well, knowing our limitations. Ruth Haley Barton says our boundaries and clarity around that is a way to honour the limitations of our humanity. And I think knowing ourselves and being able to honour who we are and who we are not, is a really big step in helping us be ready for conflict.

Vic Francis 44:38

Well, thank you, Karen. All of that is just gold, I think, for us as we are pastors and as we embrace maybe or as we are aware of conflict that's happening. Uh, this podcast aims to champion pastors and their holy calling in an an uncertain world. And I ask a question of all my guests on here is what gives you hope? So Karen Kemp, what gives you hope?

Karen Kemp 45:02

One of the main things that brings me hope is that God seems to show up even in the darkest of places. And, you know, there's noticing the slow work of God, even in really difficult situations always brings me hope. And, and the way I see people who get to desperation point and lean in at that point seems to always give way to this deep longing and a hunger to see and experience God afresh, and in that moment, God just shows up for people. And that just reassures me that when all is said and done, it's God who builds the church. It's God who's taking us ever forward, and we can trust him even in the most desperate of situations.

Vic Francis 45:55

We can trust him even in the most desperate of situations. Thank you for that hope. Would you pray for our pastors, Karen? It's a tough job. I think our pastors of New Zealand would love that.

Karen Kemp 46:10

So as I thought about praying, I think peacemaking almost always seems impossible and the temptation to expediency is strong, especially as leaders. So I want to pray a blessing over you as leaders in this space. Thank you. It's a Franciscan blessing. So may God bless you with discomfort at easy answers, half-truths and superficial relationships, so that you may live deep within your heart. May God bless you with anger at injustice, oppression and exploitation of people, so that you may work for justice, freedom and peace. And may God bless you with enough foolishness to believe that you can make a difference in this broken world, so that you can do what others claim cannot be done. Amine.

Vic Francis 47:11

Amine, indeed. Well, thank you, Karen, for joining me on the For Pastors podcast, for your great skill and knowledge, for your application of that in ways that we can understand and that we can apply, and for being vulnerable and human and taking conflict from the earliest of your memories and making it something that can be helpful to us, helping bring God to the fore in our lives. God bless you in your work, and thank you for being here. God bless.

Karen Kemp 47:45

Thank you.

Vic Francis 48:06

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more about us in the podcast notes, and I'm back in a fortnight with something different again, an interview with the Rev Dr Patricia Allan, honoured this year as an officer of the Order of New Zealand for her work championing the victims of sexual abuse within the church in New Zealand. We're calling the episode Speaking Truth to Power and Patricia's forthright challenge is something all pastors and leaders need to hear. I hope you'll join me. Bless you.