Ministry, Money and Me

Pastors don't do it for the money. But we do need money to exist. And we understand it's a sacrificial life. But we don't want to disadvantage our families. And we are trusting God. But we also want to be smart, and faithful, with money.

In this episode of For Pastors, Vic interviews Grant Harris of Windsor Park Baptist and Bruce Anderson of DecisionMakers about the delicate subject of Money, Ministry and Me. Enjoy!

Some helpful links you might like to check out:

DecisionMakers (where you can get hold of Bruce): https://www.decisionmakers.co.nz

Windsor Park Baptist (where you can get hold of Grant): https://www.windsorpark.org.nz

KiwiSaver tool: https://kiwisaver.decisionmakers.co.nz

Mindful Money on ethical investing: https://mindfulmoney.nz

Christian Savings: https://www.christiansavings.co.nz/churches-and-charities/ministry-loans

Transcript

Vic Francis 0:00

Kia ora. I'm Vic Francis, and welcome to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership, and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. Today's podcast is called Ministry, Money and Me, looking at the delicate subject of money and how we handle it, how we think about it, how we can be smart yet faithful in things financial as we pastor and lead. I'm joined by Grant Harris of Windsor Park Baptist and Bruce Anderson of DecisionMakers, two men with great experience in banking, accounting and the financial sector to go with their long involvement in Christian ministry. Welcome today to this For Pastors podcast, Ministry, Money and Me. Bruce Anderson of DecisionMakers and Grant Harris from Windsor Park Baptist, welcome to the Ministry, Money and Me episode of the For Pastors podcast.

Bruce Anderson 1:26

Thanks, uh, for inviting us. It's really good to be here and talking about something which obviously is passionate or I'm passionate about. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Grant Harris 1:34

Yeah. Thanks, Vic. Great to be here. Long time listener, first time talker.

Vic Francis 1:38

Love that. Love that, Grant. Bruce, tell us about DecisionMakers or a little bit about you.

Bruce Anderson 1:44

So just very briefly, I have a strange accent'cause I was, uh, born in Glasgow in Scotland, and I trained as an accountant at a predominantly Jewish auditing firm, and then, uh, went to work at the IRD assessing banks, and then life insurance and banking. So I guess you could say I was destined to be a professional financial advisor based on that background. But I've also worked for not-for-profits in the charity sector, so I know what it's like to be in full-time ministry, and as an accountant, balancing the needs of vision and not a lot of resource. So I think today is gonna be really good to tease some of those things out. Um, I've been working for DecisionMakers for around about three and a half years now, which the company itself has been around for 20 years. And our key thing is to help people achieve their financial goals and dreams through actively managing investments, assisting with planning for retirement and to help you make good financial decisions. In fact, everyone really needs a plan to manage finances, and we're here to help with this, and hopefully this podcast will be part of that too.

Vic Francis 2:47

I hope so, too, and that background's gonna serve us well today, I think. Grant, how about you? Tell us, Windsor Park Baptist on the North Shore?

Grant Harris 2:54

Yeah. So Windsor Park's on the North Shore. Uh, I'm previously a bank manager prior to ministry life, so a little bit of foot in both camps when it comes to this discussion, I think. Became a pastor in my early 30s. Pastored in New Plymouth first of all, but I've been here on the North Shore of Auckland for the last 17 years as senior pastor at Windsor Park. I guess we're a midsize church in many ways, probably a community of about 1500 people, and we have 22 staff and 14 full-time equivalents. So understanding salaries and how we remunerate people is kind of part of my job as well. Across our wider ministries in what we call the Windsor Park Group, we have about 160 staff, so discussions like this are relevant for many parts of our operation. So yeah, banker come pastor come trying to do my little bit to make the world a better place.

Vic Francis 3:40

A banker and an accountant with us. Uh, what better group of people to start to talk about our subject today? Yes. So, I've invited you to come on this podcast to talk about money matters as they affect pastors and leaders and full-time Christian workers. Uh, I think it's fair to say that pastors and leaders don't do it for the money. But we do need money to exist, don't we? And I think we understand that this is a sacrificial life, and that includes finances, but we also, we don't wanna disadvantage our families. We all know that one day we will retire, at least in some level of active working and pastoring, and we are living longer, and I think we don't wanna end up impoverished, having given it all into the ministry. And we are trusting God. We are those sorts of people. But, but we also wanna be smart, and faithful, with money. So it's hard to talk about money in some ways, but I think it's really important for us to do so. So Bruce, I wondered whether you might have a little bit of a biblical basis, um, to help us as it leads into our conversation.

Bruce Anderson 4:42

Thanks. Yeah, you're right. And unless you are, um, called to be single in the ministry, we're all part of a family. And the couple of verses that I've picked on were in 1 Timothy 5:8, talking about providing for your relatives, uh, especially your immediate household. And I think just picking up on what you're saying, one day we'll have our family who will then carry on and do whatever they choose to do, and often that may be in the ministry or, or it may not be. How do we help them achieve what they want to achieve out of life? They may wanna get married, and they might want to, you know, go to university, or they may want to buy a house. Those are all large sort of financial decisions. And as a full-time pastor or a full-time ministry worker, these are things as to how do you help in these situations, particularly in the current environment when we've got, yes, we're living longer, but we're also having to face financial difficulties. The cost of living crisis. We've also got a housing crisis as well. And so in the context of that, where do we turn to to get help around these sort of financial decisions? And I do believe that even though people who are in ministry give their lives to serve in that area, I don't believe that it's, it's biblical not to also look after your family, and to be good stewards of what you have been given, whatever that might be. And be it either a stipend or a manse or maybe even it's an inheritance at some stage or a salary. How do you make that work effectively and how do you stretch God's provision into those questions around how do I leave a lasting legacy? And one of the things we, we talk about, full confession, I also attend Windsor Park Baptist, and talk about leaving a legacy of, of the next generation, and that's part of the ethos or the vision of Windsor Park Baptist Church. But I think it's also part of the vision of a family, and you are part of a family, and how do you provide for that?

Vic Francis 6:33

Yeah. It's a, it is a scriptural truth, isn't it, Grant? And there's a lot of scriptures relating to the whole financial thing.

Grant Harris 6:40

Yeah. There is heaps. I guess I come from a bit of a different perspective in some areas because calling is an interesting thing for us to talk about, and we talk, often talk about ministry being a sacrificial career. But I come from a home where my dad was a teacher, my daughter was a teacher, lots of teachers, and I often feel teachers also are sacrificial. There are many careers out there that people get into because they're not primarily interested in the financial rewards. You know, I think we need to balance that out in saying as pastors, I just have a wide view of what calling can be. So many people do go into careers and things in life, not for the money. So you need to consider that when we pick careers, for sure, when we feel called by God to do those things. I guess the scripture for me that always kind of plays out is James 1:5."If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously." So it's kind of a generous thing coming from God around wisdom. And I think wisdom is all part of what Bruce has been talking about, the provision for our families, extended families. There is lots of wisdom that we need to gain in that space, and the wisdom comes into calling as well. It comes into acknowledging that sometimes there are many sacrifices in life that we have to live out. And so what does that mean for us? I also think there's, and maybe it'll come in a little bit later in the discussion, there's some wisdom to be had by churches and leadership teams in this area as well, and some wisdom to be exercised on both sides of the page when it comes to how we remunerate staff or what our expectations are on staff when we bring it down to churches. I'm not a big believer in the poverty mentality, and I wonder where that's come from and how it plays out. But there are challenges in that as well.

Vic Francis 8:19

Yeah, I think, uh, we will get into that further. Um, I think back to when I was a 20-year-old and had a sense of call, uh, into journalism, into Christian journalism, and back then I would have done it for free and, and lived on nothing'cause there was a sense of the call of God and all of that sort of thing. Grant, what financial advice would you give to somebody who's just, you know, young and eager and keen and wanting to go into ministry and willing to give it all?

Grant Harris 8:45

Yeah. I mean, we love that. Yeah. And I, I hope that applies to any number of different callings we might have in life. I think the advice that I always give to that would be the same advice that I'd give to anybody. You know, if you aren't wired in that space, just have the humbleness to talk about it with somebody that might be wired in that space. And look, we form these views as we go through life. What is our kind of financial goal? What does that look like in our life? Is God calling us to whatever level of wealth that might be? And you know, no level is better than another, it's just different. And so working out our theology and our philosophy around how we wanna live our life and what our goals are for the future. I think these days, you know, I'm a parent of kids in their late 20s, early 30s. I've tried to give them some wisdom about that as they are young, to be thinking long term. It's hard when you're young to be thinking long term. I mean, we're all full of idealism, to try and get a little dose of reality as to what that might look like. And you know, in ministry settings there are plenty of people that live by faith, and that's another level of working all of this out. I guess my main advice is just sit down and talk about it with somebody, a parent if you trust them, or somebody that's been in the game for a long time, and thrash through what these different issues are that we should be thinking about.

Vic Francis 9:59

I remember when I was about 30 or 35 or whatever having something of a crisis around money because my peers, my friends, even people in my church who are of my same age, all of a sudden their careers are taking off and they're earning way more. Yeah. And all I can see is a flat line. Yeah. So this is not just a financial thing, it's a heart thing and an internal thing as well.

Grant Harris 10:19

Totally. That's exactly right. And for me that's where it comes down to working hard on our hearts and identifying what is our philosophy. And that comparison trap that you identify, Vic, it is a trap. Yeah. It's a real trap. I mean, that's a trap in all parts of our lives. And so, yeah, working on our hearts is so important.

Vic Francis 10:35

Bruce, we're talking about different stages of Christian ministry. What about someone in the latter stages of their ministry life? And actually it could be people who are older who are just entering a ministry role, because that seems to happen quite often. People have retrained, they've been in business or whatever it might have been. Somebody close to the end, would you give any different advice?

Bruce Anderson 10:57

Well, I think Grant actually had great advice, and get a financial advisor would be my starting point, seeing I'm a financial advisor. And as he said, get people around you who have wisdom, who perhaps walked that route before and who have life skills in areas that you potentially don't have. There's that saying we're better together because we are, because we've each got unique sort of skills. So I think you're absolutely right. The first place would be get some good advice, because it is an area where you haven't been before. I'd also say there's some fear as well on a couple of fronts. One would be you're in accumulation phase throughout your life, and suddenly you turn a certain age and you decide to retire and you're now in de-accumulation phase. Yes. So your, your resources and funds are going down, and it can be quite a panic sort of setting, like,"Oh my goodness, I can't spend money. I've got to baked beans and toast for the rest of my life because I haven't got the resources." So getting advice, getting someone to map it out what it could look like. Some budgeting skills as well, I know there's some organisations that can really help with that as well, if you haven't been a budgeter throughout your life, and it may not be your natural skill. I think the other one is, and this is probably not necessarily financial, but more a sense of purpose, I think. So often you have the situation where you had a meaningful career and suddenly you're sort of retired and it's like, well, what's my sense of purpose now? And that purpose could be a whole bunch of things, and it may be mentoring the coming generation, as Grant was talking about, somebody who's just going into ministry. I think the other thing is, if you've got resources, man, there's some great volunteering opportunities that you could go into. And that gives you that sense of purpose, but also doesn't give you that sense of I'm burdening the church with my costing. And a bit like Paul and he's saying,"Hey, I'm, I wanna come and be there with you, but I don't wanna be a burden to you", is a wonderful opportunity if you're close to that retirement phase. And I think the thing is don't be afraid to talk about it. There's nothing wrong with being retired. It's great to be retired. And it gives you a whole bunch of new opportunities. So yeah, getting advice, don't be afraid, talk about it.

Vic Francis 12:52

When you say advice, are you talking about a financial advisor, which clearly you are, or is it, I don't know, somebody who's wired, experienced, wise? How professional does it need to be?

Bruce Anderson 13:04

As a professional, I would say it's really good to be professional. It's a bit like don't go onto Google and self-diagnose, because you end up having every illness you can think of under the sun. But that's not necessarily your sole piece of advice. I think having a number of people around you that are skilled in the area of finance is a good thing. You know, elders, deacons, pastors really need that professional advice, as well as people who just have wisdom. And I think there is that aspect around God will give you the wisdom that you need or the people who have the wisdom that you need to achieve either your goals or the vision that your organisation needs to have. But because I get to see hundreds of people I can sort of assimilate that into a, a nice package as against one individual sees one person.

Vic Francis 13:51

Yeah. Yeah.

Grant Harris 13:52

Vic, can I add a comment around a pastor side of it. I felt as I've gone through my ministry career, obviously we have to preach about money, and you know, money's a big topic within scripture and at various times we're called upon to speak about those different things. I have found that I've had to grow into an understanding of my theology and philosophy of giving, generosity, tithing, which, you know, I say is a heresy, but that's another story. What does it mean for us to be able to preach what the scriptures say? What do we think about prosperity doctrine? What do we think around all of those different aspects so that when we're preaching about it, I mean, I just have a philosophy that I can't preach anything unless I've lived it myself. Yeah. And so actually working out my theology of money and what it means in my own life has been part of my journey as a preacher and as a, I guess, a spiritual leader within my congregation. So, from a pastoral side, it's like it's not just practical in what I'm doing in my private life, it's what does that mean in my public life as well?

Vic Francis 14:52

Really important on different areas of life too, isn't it, Grant? Not just money, but in other areas as you evolve. Bruce?

Bruce Anderson 14:58

I had that experience when I went full-time and joined a, a full-time ministry. I went from a corporate world, which earning a good salary, into a sort of full-time ministry position, and the CEO at the time was very wise and said, he'd been in a full-time ministry for a long time, and said,"You know, you're gonna have face difficulties and you're gonna face attack in areas where you think you're under control and where you're the weakest." And I went,"No, that's not gonna happen to me." He says,"No, you're joining a battleship. And when you join a battleship, you're in the front line or you're in the trenches in the front line." And, um, it happened to me. My first year of being in the full-time ministry, my car got stolen by sort of circumstances beyond my control. And it was just that temptation at that time when you sort of feel like,"Hey, I'm doing this for you, God. Why am I facing this difficulty?" In an area where I, as a financial person, and I thought I'd had under control. I didn't need help because I knew what I was doing. Once you've experienced it, you realise how real the warfare is around your life, and how much you have to deal with things before you can actually say,"This is what I would advise you do." And so, yes, having the scars to prove it is certainly important.

Vic Francis 16:07

Yeah. Bruce has highlighted one here, what are some of the financial mistakes that we make as pastors, either personally or maybe even within our church communities?

Grant Harris 16:16

I think again, it comes down to philosophy and theology. We might have a poverty mentality as to what that looks like. And I think whatever mentality that we have, we have to work out our basis for that. So why has that become predominant for us, if that's what it is? Where has that entered the church? Because it's not in all aspects of the church by far. And so the mistakes, I think, are really just not thinking and working through this as a big issue. And what do we need to overturn and perhaps change in our thinking around, both from the church angle and from the pastor angle, and as pastors we're always in this very unique position where we, I guess, are leading a church, but in most of our churches we are servants of the church. In my setup I'm responsible to the members, and ultimately our leadership team kind of look after all of those sorts of aspects of my employment, if you wanna call it that. Not talking about it, not being honest about it, not acknowledging when we think that there is a problem. I think the mistake is when we don't address it a lot of the time, whatever level that we're coming from in that area. And I know it can be difficult, because no one wants to talk about these things, but I think it is a mistake if we leave it under the carpet. And I see a lot of people, and my, I'm older now and mentoring younger pastors, when pastors end up becoming a bit bitter about that or angry, or there is unresolved conflict in that part of their life with their church then that can cause all kinds of issues. And so I think a mistake for me is not addressing it when things do come up.

Vic Francis 17:46

If you think about decades in ministry, your, your 20s or your 30s can just disappear so quickly when you've got your head down, tail up with the ministry. And I'm just loving this idea from both of you of, we've gotta talk about it. If we're, if we're a 25-year-old or a 20-year-old, back to when I was sensing the calling of God, it's so good to talk about it then because you blink and you're all, all of a sudden a 30-year-old or a 40-year-old, and you have to have had those conversations.

Grant Harris 18:11

Or a 55-year-old.

Bruce Anderson 18:12

And I think you should be listening to some good podcasts as well. That would be a really good idea.'Cause that would give you some good input. And can I say one of the things I've seen, I was in a charitable organisation for a good sort of seven or eight years helping churches and helping finance churches and looking at buildings and those sort of areas. And I think one of the things I saw often was, again, coming a little bit back to that poverty sort of thing, not being courageous enough. Not going,"Actually, we can do this." And sometimes, and not to say you should have this sort of let's build this massive cathedral on the hill aspect, but certainly taking the courage to go that this is something that God wants, or this is our belief that God is calling or, or is saying to us that we should be taking this. Let's have the courage to follow that. And that's a challenge. And I think sometimes a mistake as well, that we don't then obey or listen to that calling or have the conviction enough to say,"Let's just do this." The one organisation I worked in, every year we'd have a budget and it would be a huge number, and you'd go,"My goodness, it's so big." What's the temptation? Let's cut it back. Let's make it smaller. Let's reduce. And it's like, no you can't keep shrinking it. Sometimes we have to kind of extend the tent peg, excuse me, that sort of biblical sort of thing. Let's get bigger. Let's look for where can we expand rather than getting smaller.

Vic Francis 19:30

Yeah. Food for thought. I think it's a good point for us to take a break. When we return, we'll look at trusting God, responsible financial planning, guardrails against temptation, much, much more. So we will be right back. Grant Harris, Bruce Anderson, welcome back to For Pastors. We're calling this episode Money, Ministry and Me. And I'd like to take the conversation a little deeper in this segment. In the DecisionMaker's statistics Bruce, you talk about nearly half of those nearing retirement not having a financial plan to live the sort of lifestyle that they want. I'm wondering about the whole thing of trusting in God's provision and responsible financial planning. Are they at odds or, or can we do both?

Bruce Anderson 21:08

I think we can definitely do both. I guess I look at the financial plan as the important part of how am I trusting in God for my future retirement and finances. And similarly, we're allowed to use GPS to tell us where we're going from Auckland to Wellington. Well, there's no reason why we can't use a financial GPS to show us where we are today and how we're gonna get to where we wanna get to when we retire. And one of our goals might be to be able to serve voluntarily at some stage, and that way I need to put that in my plan. And so I believe the two go hand-in-hand. God calls us to have trust in Him, but He also gives us the tools and equipment to utilise that trust, and the Holy Spirit inspires us as well around what more can we do? So I definitely think they go hand-in-hand. I think you're right though, the stats there is that we don't have enough people thinking about retirement, and thinking she'll be right. Everything's gonna be okay on the day.

Vic Francis 22:03

Yeah. Yeah, I think that is really important. Um, Grant, thinking about pastors, um, I sort of grew up on that gold, girls and glory. Those are the three temptations that are gonna get you money, sex and fame or something. And it may sound anachronistic these days, but it is true nevertheless. So what guardrails should we be putting in place to avoid, I guess, financial mismanagement or temptation with money?

Grant Harris 22:27

Yeah, well, I think there's two answers to that question, and the first one, and probably the most significant one, is our own hearts, the personal work. And I think you have to come to terms with a lot of that stuff in ministry. And I guess I'm talking mainstream ministry for the most of us that are kind of in mainstream sort of positions, whereby the gold is never gonna be all that rosy. And as you said earlier, it is a flatline career in many ways, like other careers are. And so acknowledging that, you know, we're not in this to get wealthy generally speaking, and all things being equal, that's just the way it is. And so doing our heart work around, again, what you alluded to earlier, around the comparison trap, is so important for us. I mean, I'm 55, as I said. Most of my friends that aren't pastors are doing pretty well in life, and I'm not complaining about my life. But falling into that comparison trap in so many parts of our lives is so easy to do. And so being comfortable with who we are, who God's created us to be, and where He's placed us. And so those spiritual practices are so important for us, and as pastors doing our own work spiritually, all our leadership, all of that comes out of who we are. And so you can never replace that ongoing coming closer to Jesus type work that we have to do. T hat's the biggest guardrail for all aspects of ministry. And then there's the practical. Obviously, how we manage our church from a physical side of things. And so I've always taken the approach, I never have anything to do with our money, our actual money, in the two churches that I've served in. I'm not actively involved in managing that. And so making sure that I'm outside of any of those processes around counting money or, making sure that we have double signatures, making sure that our internal systems in our church, means that me as a pastor really have no opportunity to be able to mismanage those things. And ensuring, it's become a little bit easier in recent times with much stricter audits, to make sure that our expense claims and all the internal functions of our church protect us, in fact, and that we are fully transparent in how we manage the internal mechanics of our management. And that can be different according to small churches and big churches. I guess we're big. We have a full-time accountant and teams that manage those things. But I think equally that should apply no matter what size church we are. We have to make sure that our lives are protected from that side, and all those three categories that you mentioned at the start are true for us. We have to manage our, our personal aspects. We have to manage our financial aspects. So that's heart and action would be the way I would say. So those guardrails are so important because an accusation in ministry could ruin our ministry.

Vic Francis 25:08

Surely could.

Grant Harris 25:08

And it doesn't even have to, you know, false accusations as well. So I manage even how I have my office, where my office is and how visible I am. Those sorts of things are just as important for me as how I manage my life financially.

Vic Francis 25:22

So we talked in the first session about needing to be able to talk about this whole thing of money. For you, Grant, how do we talk to our churches or our boards or our bosses if it's a bigger congregation about money and about our own needs? And, maybe I've had a child, or maybe my financial situation's changed. How, how do we go about that?

Grant Harris 25:43

I guess it's fair to say you have to be honest. It can obviously be challenging, and it is challenging for a lot of people. But the honesty around, I guess, fair pay, having people that are on your side are, in that area, and again, that can be sometimes difficult to find, but having advocates for you, and sometimes you might need someone to advocate from the outside for you and with you. I don't wanna speak to church boards, because I'm a pastor, I'm on that other side. But there is a huge responsibility for people in churches to also do their hard work about what their expectations are on pastors, both from a workload level but also from the tangible level. I'm fortunate to be in a church that for longer than I've been here worked through this. In 2001, they did a big project around that to make sure that it is fair for our teams and for our staff.

Vic Francis 26:33

Tell us about that

Grant Harris 26:34

yeah, so

Vic Francis 26:35

sort of your, your philosophy, if you like, in terms of paying staff.

Grant Harris 26:37

Yeah, so back in 2001, our church realised that we are on the North Shore of Auckland. We are in an expensive part to live. And so the leadership team at the time, outside of the pastoral staff, actually determined, we wanna make sure that we pay our staff fairly," so they did a big project. So the scales that they put in place at that point are still what we use today some 25 years later. And so it came down from a philosophy from the church. I mean, this church doesn't have a poverty mentality for its pastors. To give you an idea of that, we benchmark our salaries and our packages really against school teachers. We feel like for those of us that are pastors here, we're all undergraduate or postgraduate qualifications people. And so I guess the philosophy or the culture of this church is to be fair and to look after their staff within a manageable kind of level. There's always ongoing discussions around what that looks like, and I think we are in a fortunate position to have a leadership team that's on board with that. But sometimes you might need an advocate. You might need a mediator around that. You might need somebody to have a bit of a chat to about that, and I think over my career as pastors and peers, it's okay to sit down and talk about that with one another as well. But I think boards can be much better equipped for these discussions than probably what they often are.

Bruce Anderson 27:55

I think one of the things that boards sometimes struggle with is, what is my role in this organisation, being on the board? And is it my job to say no to everything, or is it my job to say yes to everything? And so having that tension of between, say, the senior pastor or between the leadership team and the board is quite a tricky one to navigate. And particularly, b oards are normally volunteers as well, so they're going,"Well, hey, I'm volunteering my time for free, so maybe the pastor should volunteer his time for free," or, you know, or vice versa. So that's, that's not the right way of thinking at all. So I think you're right, Grant. It's about having the right understanding of, what is my role in this kind of organisation or my responsibility in taking this role? And I think one of the things that you do very well, Grant and I think our organisation, our church, does really well, is that education to people coming on as an elder or a deacon or onto the board, this is what you need to be thinking about, and this is how you can help and enable to achieve what we wanna achieve. So I think rather than being a blocker, it's more about an enabler. Um, But it's also accountability too, and governance. So those are big words to, to throw in there.

Grant Harris 29:04

One of the big challenges arises, Vic, when you might find, and this happens regularly obviously, a church which has only got so much money. And so they want to employ a pastor, and they don't have enough to pay a full-time salary or at a level that is probably sufficient. And so there's always this tension between,"Well, you're a pastor, surely you can work for this lesser amount." And I think as pastors, sometimes we need to stand up for ourselves and say,"Actually, I can't. And I can't do this full-time. And so is this the role for me if that's what you're asking of me?" Increasingly these days, there's bi-vocational pastors, and that's a challenge as well because most bi-vocational pastors I know might be employed.6 in their church and.4 somewhere else, which means the church expects them to do full-time but only being paid for.6. Mm. So there, there's all those kind of legitimate challenges that come up. And so honesty in discussions can sometimes be tense, but I think we shouldn't avoid them.

Vic Francis 30:02

Bruce, pastors sometimes get into financial trouble. Hopefully, not because of a dishonesty thing, but just life things happen, health or maybe unemployment of their spouse or whatever it is. I guess it's general advice, but what do we do when all of a sudden we are in trouble? Where do we go? Mm. What do we do?

Bruce Anderson 30:21

And, and you're right. Look, it happens to not just pastors, and you heard my little story earlier about my car being stolen when I was full-time ministry. That was pretty challenging times. And so what did I do? I definitely would look for help. Put your hand up and ask for help. There's nothing wrong with being in trouble,'cause it happens to everyone at some stage. And so definitely getting help, don't do it alone, is clearly my advice. Find a financial advisor, find a, a, a trusted friend. Go to the leadership. And I think one of the things when I was working in sort of a full-time capacity was saying,"Make sure that your church knows that you're serving. And make sure you've got people round about you that are caring for you in whatever way that looks like." And it might be financially caring, but it might also just be uplifting in prayer or it might just be,"Hey, how can I help you out?" Or,"I've got a friend who can help you." And that's what happened to me. I had people who I could go to who could say,"Bruce, this is what you should do. This is how I can help you." I had a lawyer help me, you know, it went to court. Police were involved. It was quite sort of ugly. It wasn't the sort of thing that you want to get involved in. So definitely reach out, look for help, get help.

Vic Francis 31:24

It's one of those things we know that, don't we? It's an obvious answer in one sense, but boy, isn't it hard to do, pride or whatever it is gets in the way.

Bruce Anderson 31:31

Yeah, and Kiwi mentality, you know? Yeah. And, you know, we, we're a self- self-sufficient, self-reliant, I can do it all, I'm indestructible, and we're not indestructible. And don't be afraid to say,"I've had this issue, and this is how I dealt with it. Learn from my mistakes,'cause I've made lots of them, but also learn how I dealt with that issue so that you don't have to learn as well. You don't have to go through the same sort of pain." Yeah. And there is ways you can get out of it, so definitely look for help and then be an example.

Vic Francis 31:56

So saving for the future isn't something that sounds very exciting or anything like that. But the harsh reality is, isn't it, that we're gonna need some sort of savings. So Bruce, just even mentality-wise, how do we think about our future in terms of providing for a future where we won't be paid?

Bruce Anderson 32:16

Yeah, look, I think the government has done some good work around the retirement commissioner and the outgoing retirement commissioner. There's a new retirement commissioner appointed. There's a strong KiwiSaver background, and so I won't go into detail. I think we'll talk about it a bit later. But I certainly think there's some aspects that the government is helping with around thinking about retirement. We've moved from a no super or just a super stage to a super plus Kiwisaver. So I think Kiwisaver has to be a building block of saving for the future. Um, one of my colleagues is very keen on quoting from John Wesley who says,"Gain all you can, save all you can, and give all you can." Yeah. And I think you'll, you will know that quote very well, but he viewed money as a tool, and a way of us using that tool to do what God is calling us to do. And I think saving for retirement is part of that toolkit that we need to think about, and we need to have those conversations that back in the day super might have been enough, but it's no longer just enough. And there's nothing wrong with saving for retirement, because retirement, as you said, will come to us all. And so we need to make sure we're prepared for that.

Vic Francis 33:21

And I think maybe for pastors, Grant, have you seen a tendency perhaps for us to think,"Well, you know, we're in the minute, we're in the calling of God," and some of that can take care of itself?

Grant Harris 33:31

Yeah, I think that's realistic for some people. I guess I'm in a position, maybe that's why you've asked me to speak, I'm 55, I'm 10 years away from retirement, I guess. So this is a live discussion for my wife and I at the moment. And I think the main discussion that we're having is, so what does retirement look like for us? For most of us in ministry we would say theologically there's no retirement in the Bible. Sure. And so, is it just to go off sailing in Europe on Carnival cruises? What is it for us? And I know that we're talking actively about that. Even for me, what does leadership transition look like pre-retirement. And so that flows into a financial discussion. Am I just gonna stop work and just plant roses? Well, the reality is no, I have lots of things that I'm thinking of, and so that plays into our thinking about retirement income, and how do we start thinking about that now with kind of 10 years to go. And so it's not just the retirement, it's the growing old gracefully. It's what does God's calling look like on my life post when I've been in, I guess, senior leadership? What do I envisage myself doing, and how does that work for us as far as how we're gonna live our lives financially, spiritually, in all areas?

Vic Francis 34:44

Absolutely. Well, thank you Bruce and Grant for helping us understand these important matters, and to be stimulated around them. We'll take a short break now, and when we return I'm gonna ask you both for your best practical tips on money. We will be right back. Welcome back, Bruce and Grant, as we attempt to find some answers in the Ministry, Money and Me conundrum. Bruce, maybe start with you with our best practical tips. KiwiSaver, you've mentioned it. It's a no-brainer, yeah?

Bruce Anderson 35:45

Absolutely. Especially where you're contributing and your employer, and most employers will contribute as well, so you're kind of doubling your money. The government puts in a little bit as well but it's locked in there so I guess you can't touch it unless there's hardship or you're gonna buy a house. But buying a house is not a bad thing, so a definite no-brainer. What I will say, though, is go and check your KiwiSaver against the performance of other KiwiSavers. Don't just assume your KiwiSaver's the best performing. That's lazy money. It sits there, and if you're performing at a lower level than everybody else, you're gonna end up with less money at the end. That's a hygiene factor. So KiwiSaver, definite no-brainer, go for it.

Vic Francis 36:22

Love it. Grant, there's this idea of starting at the end and working back from there. Is that something that you would ascribe to?

Grant Harris 36:30

Yeah, I think it's really important for those of us that are organised enough to do that. A practical example of that, so I have a little spreadsheet that I keep for our lives that means that if I drop dead, one of my kids can go on there and can see where things are and what I was planning. So it actually has a little plan to say,"If I drop dead, this is what I think is how you should look after Mum." So yes, we have worked backwards from that point of our life to say,"So how do we get there from now?" So I think organisation is important. Some people aren't wired for that, and that goes back to, so get someone to help you.

Vic Francis 37:03

Yeah. Bruce, you're an advisor. So that comes to things like savings and investing and term deposits if we do have a little bit of money over and above our KiwiSaver. What are some of the really basic things if we're not really coherent in those areas?

Bruce Anderson 37:19

Again, get some good financial advice. Get advice, yeah. Be careful of going onto social media and looking at some of the influencers on there who have got an agenda and, uh, you know,"Send your money to me and I'll look after it." Yeah, that's too good to be true, or probably is too good to be true. You work hard for the money, you know? You've got to then take that money and make sure that the person who you're giving it to is also gonna work hard for you and put it in the right place that fits your risk profile, that fits your goals, that fits your age. And there's also the classic sort of being an ex-banker as well as Grant, you've got the benefits of compounding interest. So the earlier you start, doesn't matter how small it is, and even if it's for the grandkids, putting in$5 a month or$5 a fortnight, that compounding effect over a lifetime is phenomenal. So it doesn't matter how small it is, it's never too small. It's start early, get going, and get some good professional advice.

Vic Francis 38:07

And Bruce, if I'm investing, I can say I don't want it to be in, you know, building bombs or something like that, or ethics or, you know, the climate or whatever.

Bruce Anderson 38:17

Absolutely. And if you talk about the ESG, so there's environmental, social and governance aspect of investing, and nearly every fund now complies with certain sort of cords around where that funds or those money, monies go. And, yeah, definitely ask your financial advisor,"I want to be ethically invested." And ethical could be a whole bunch of different factors. But it is important again to consider that and make sure that it fits your values and that you're contributing towards the growth of organisations that you are happy to contribute towards. So definitely that can be screened. There's a couple of sites that you can go to. There's one that I think is pretty useful called Mindful Money if you want to throw your KiwiSaver into it's a really good site to have a look at, and it just shows you a little bit of an idea where your KiwiSaver fund might be ethically and what they're investing in.

Grant Harris 39:00

It would be fair to say that for a bunch of pastors that might be listening to this, and there would be a number who are part of denominations that have superannuation schemes. So as a Baptist pastor, we have a Baptist ministers' superannuation scheme that's actually for Baptists and those of the Equippers Church as well. And so, you know, being aware of if we're in denominations like that, what their schemes are, and getting into that early when we start in ministry as well would be good advice. So just being aware of what is available, I guess, within our churches or within the Christian landscape.

Vic Francis 39:30

Yeah, that, that's really helpful, and denominations do take some responsibility around that, which is great. What about a financial warrant of fitness?

Grant Harris 39:37

Super like it. I like the warrant of fitness. I always say we should do that with our marriages as well.

Vic Francis 39:41

Right.

Grant Harris 39:41

But financially I think it's good just to sit down, and Bruce alluded to some of the things. Personally speaking, I mean, every year when my insurances come due, I check to make sure that I'm getting the best deal and the right coverage. And so for me, I guess it's my banker heart, but I'm like I'm forever doing a bit of a warrant of fitness, just making sure that I'm on track in all parts of this life of mine so that I'm spending the money that I have the most wisely that I can, and that I'm getting the value for that, and that I guess the goals that we have. And look, we will all have different goals for retirement and different contexts play into that as well. Some people will end up with inheritances that are bigger than others. Yeah. And so we need to think about, I guess, what is in the future and how that plays out. So yes, I think regular checks are super useful in all parts of our lives, spiritually and tangibly.

Bruce Anderson 40:28

I like that endorsement, Grant, for the marriage course thing. I'm helpfully running the Alpha Marriage course at Windsor Park. That's really good. I'm glad to hear that. I'd like to see you and Jo pop up to this one. Yeah, yeah. That's okay.

Grant Harris 40:37

Bruce is a warrant of fitness inspector for marriage.

Vic Francis 40:39

Right. So, so we're gonna change the title of this podcast to Ministry, Marriage, Money and Me. Yeah, there you go. That's a great Baptist four-point sermon. And the alliteration is going so well.

Grant Harris 40:52

Make a Baptist out you yet.

Vic Francis 40:53

Hey, um, Bruce, I'll, I'll move on. Bruce, you mentioned property before, and New Zealanders love to buy a house, of course. I, I'm also thinking that some ministers are still in manses. So getting on the property ladder if indeed that's still relevant. How do you view property as part of our planning?

Bruce Anderson 41:11

So you're right, and there's an age and stage around property, and so it can be great, but it can also be a trap. And so we've gotta be really careful about making sure that we get a properties appropriate to our circumstance and stage of life. And we talk about the liquidity when you retire, so some people have investment properties, for example, but if you need money, you can't sort of sell a bathroom out of a rental property. You need liquidity, and so that may not be the appropriate vehicle when you get to a certain stage in life. You're right. There's been a love affair with a property over many years, and it has delivered well as an asset class, but there's so many other opportunities for asset classes that you can invest in that we can deliver both returns and that liquidity that you might need when you need it most, and that's often when you retire or, as we talked about earlier, those, those sort of unfortunate life events come along and we need resources or need funds quickly. We need to be able to realise an asset so that we can actually pay for whatever it is. But don't get me wrong, property's an important aspect around retirement and planning and life skills. Just don't let it be a weight around your shoulders or a burden that you can't afford to pay for, um, because that can often be the case of a massive mortgage. I think the other one, and just coming back to that sort of faith aspect, is something that I've seen in many years working with churches and organisation, is it's really important to look after the pastor who's perhaps serving a community, but if they've got a manse, they may not live in that community but wanna retire in that community. So having a plan for how that might look because, you know, if you've spent 40 years living in a certain part of the North Shore, for example, you might wanna retire in that part of the North Shore, but because you live in a manse you haven't got a property. So how do you plan for that?

Grant Harris 42:48

I want to put in a little ad, Vic, if I can, yeah, yeah Um, Christian Savings, which is an organisation that Bruce used to work for, have recently introduced a product for home ownership for ministry workers. And so they have been wrestling with ministers and pastors and church staff for a number of years about this very aspect, and how do people in ministry get into housing for their futures. And so just in the last two years, I think, they've brought out a product which offers a pathway towards that, under certain conditions of course. But I think that's a positive development that at least they are giving it a shot to help out church workers as they call them in that context.

Vic Francis 43:28

That's a wonderful thing, isn't it? And could be a lifeline for many. Yeah. I'm thinking as a spinoff of our, um, housing conversation, Grant, minimising debt presumably is a really big factor if you can arrive at retirement having paid off your house or, or whatever or not being laden with debt.

Grant Harris 43:45

That's the dream. I think again, debt comes down to personal philosophy around money. Debt in itself is not a bad thing in my opinion, but yes, if it's part of your plan, I think that's the forward thinking nature of it. You might have a small mortgage when you go into retirement, but if that's manageable according to the way that you plan on living, then that's okay. But I think we all have to acknowledge that when we retire our income will drop. So what will it drop to, and then how will we cope with those things? And I think for, for ministers and pastors, Bruce is right, around that forward planning, where you want to live. Practically, again, Jo and I, we love our community, so all things being equal or whatever, we would love to retire around here, but it's an expensive part to live in. So we need to be thinking about that and we already are.

Vic Francis 44:31

Bruce, are there any other obvious or, or really important things that we should be talking about?

Bruce Anderson 44:37

I think we've covered really the key aspects around planning for that retirement, and it is a practical step to take. I mean, it sounds a huge topic, but it's actually not that bad. And like any large goal planning or goal setting, just start. Get started. Don't wait. Just don't hang around. The sooner you start, the sooner you get a plan together, the sooner you know where you're at in that plan. You can measure it. And so it isn't as big an issue as potentially it may seem, if you just chunk it down into small manageable little goals and track according to that and see if you, is it feasible to get to where you are from where you are now, or do I need to lower my expectation? I think the other one is, you're right, Grant, you mentioned it too, that thing about comparison. Just don't fall into that comparison trap. There's gonna be people who are gonna have a lot more wealth, and there's gonna be people who are, I can guarantee you, they're significantly worse than what you are.

Grant Harris 45:25

And also acknowledging that things can change. I mean a plan, yes. But let's be honest, my plan this year with Iran, my plan is changed somewhat because the returns that I was expecting on my Baptist minister superannuation scheme have been affected. And so there's a part of me that's like,"Oh man, that sucks this year," but that's riding the long term.

Bruce Anderson 45:49

Ride the long term, Grant. Never look at the short term.

Vic Francis 45:51

So yes, it's that long term thing, and the long term may only be five years or 10 years or 15 years or it could be 30 or 40, depending on your age. Correct. But still really important. But the thing that I'm taking out of it, and the thing maybe that we could finish this particular segment on is start now. Don't hide. Make sure you're having those great conversations and doing those really simple things, and doing them well. Thank you both for your contribution in that area. I think it's been an amazing conversation, and really helpful and thought-provoking. This is the For Pastors podcast. And it aims to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. And one of the things I ask all of the guests on our podcast is, what gives you hope? So Grant, maybe throw to you first. What gives you hope?

Grant Harris 46:36

What gives me hope through all of what we talk about and everything else that we don't talk about is that God is sovereign at the end of the day, and I think we have to still trust in that. Whether financial things work out or whether they don't, God is sovereign and He comes through for us. And so I think there's enough evidence of God at work in all of our lives to be able to say, He is still on the throne. He is still worthy of our worship. He is still worthy of following. He is still worthy of serving in whatever way that He calls us to. So I guess, look, we've had some tragedies in our own church this year, and you have to work through those for sure, but He is still the king. He is still the focus of our hearts and our lives and our attention, and the thing that gives me hope is that people are still looking towards Him. And we might talk about this quiet revival or whatever it is, but there's enough stuff going on around us to be able to say, He's still good."

Vic Francis 47:32

Yeah. Bruce, how about you? What gives you hope?

Bruce Anderson 47:35

I think it's that certainty in a uncertain world, that there's one thing I can hold onto, it's our faith. God is constant and steadfast. And you're right, we go through turbulent times both personally and macroeconomically and socially and whatever it might be in our lives, and God is the one constant that we can hold onto. He won't let you down, and He will be with you through that time. And so I think that's what gives me hope. And I think there's also joy in the journey. You know, life is a journey, and I enjoy the journey. I'm enjoying the journey. And God gives you that joy in the journey, and sometimes that's what I reflect back on. Not so much the experience, but the joy in that journey.

Vic Francis 48:15

Thank you. I also ask our guests to pray for our pastors. I figure pastors pray for a whole lot of other people and maybe don't feel like they're prayed for themselves all that much. So Bruce, would you be happy to do that and maybe, Grant, you can pick it up from there?

Bruce Anderson 48:28

Father, we just thank you for opportunity to get together and talk on a podcast, an amazing vehicle to reach out to people. And I just pray for any pastors who may be listening right now, who may be feeling either discouraged or in a financial difficulty or feeling stressed or pressured. I pray that you will give them relief, that you will give them joy, that you will also give them certainty and assurance and encouragement, right at this moment as they listen to these words. God, you are good, and we trust in you and you alone. We don't know sometimes the answers, but you do. And so I just pray again for those spiritual leaders in our community. We are grateful for their calling, your call on their life. We are grateful for their obedience and their servant hearts, and we wanna pray a special blessing on them and a blessing on their family, their extended families and a blessing on the ministries that they are so faithfully serving. Thank you, Jesus.

Grant Harris 49:35

And Father, I am grateful that I'm not praying for pastors, I'm praying for my peers, my friends, my sisters and brothers who serve in such a diverse range of churches, in my area and throughout our nation. Father, thank you for the collegiality that we can have with one another. And I just wanna pray for continued and ongoing unity amongst us as churches. Different sizes, different shapes, different styles. But Father, ultimately we're here to seek your kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven. And so guide us as we lead and as we serve and as we manage our families and manage all the practical sides of what it is to live our lives. God, give us wisdom in that space, I pray. Help us to navigate the complexities of what we have talked about today, and the other complexities of what it is to be parents or grandparents as leaders in churches, with all of those fun things that get in the way of that. So help us to listen to your voice, to allow the quiet, still voice of the Spirit to lead and guide us. And as Bruce said earlier, that we would have joy in where you have called us to, to serve your purposes in our nation. And so Father, might we be attuned to your Spirit and feel your embrace and your love. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Vic Francis 50:50

Amen. Thank you Bruce and Grant. It's been a wonderful conversation, and an important one I think. Thank you both, too, for your work in your local church and in the wider church in Aotearoa. For being people who understand money and how it works, and yet still being people of faith and trust in God, stretching in your own way. For DecisionMakers, Bruce, bless you and the work that you do; for Windsor Park, Grant, bless you and the work that you do. And so much more I know that you do outside of those organisations. So we champion you too and your holy callings in this uncertain world. God bless you.

Grant Harris 51:30

Thank you.

Bruce Anderson 51:31

Thank you.

Vic Francis 51:55

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more about us in the podcast notes, along with some links if you would like to explore the money conversation a little more. And while you're at it, how about liking or rating this podcast and passing it on to a pastor you know who may benefit? Meanwhile, I'm back in a fortnight with something different again, an episode called Wrestling With AI, looking at the good, the bad and the potential ugly of artificial intelligence for us as pastors. I hope you'll join me. Bless you.