Wrestling with AI

Artificial intelligence. It's all around us.

As pastors, what are the advantages - and the potential disadvantages - with the way we handle AI as we follow our call and lead our churches? Can something non-human yet so captivating help bring us or our people closer to God?

In this episode of For Pastors, Vic Francis interviews Andy Shudall of Eastgate Christian Centre and Rob Stacey of Tauranga Central Baptist about the good, the bad and the ugly of AI.

For further thoughtful processing, Andy suggests this message: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8C1pnDrWhg

For more information on Vic and Solace, check out our website or search for us on Facebook or Instagram. And if you would like to support this podcast, please become a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/forpastors

Enjoy the podcast!

Transcript

Vic Francis 0:00

Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and welcome to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. Today's podcast is called Wrestling With AI, looking at the good, the bad and the potential ugly of artificial intelligence for our pastors and for our churches. I'm joined by Andy Shudall and Rob Stacey, two pastors who have embraced AI, and together we try and fathom how much AI is good and how much AI is too much AI. Welcome today to this For Pastors podcast, Wrestling With AI. Andy Shudall, Rob Stacey, welcome to For Pastors and our episode that we're calling Wrestling With AI.

Andy Shudall 1:13

Morning. Great to be on. Thanks for having us.

Rob Stacey 1:16

Good morning. Yeah, it's great to be here. A privilege.

Vic Francis 1:19

So good to have you here. Rob, maybe we could meet you first. Who are you? Where are you from? What makes you tick?

Rob Stacey 1:25

Yeah uh, Rob Stacey. I'm here at Tauranga Central Baptist. I'm a pastor that's been sent here to revitalise or initiate here at Tauranga Central. I've spent the last seven years as Generations Pastor at uh, BBC. Married to Deb for 27 years, been in Baptist ministry for 26 of those. We have three kids, 20, 18 and 15. And I love a bit of golf. I'm an ex-chef and I love winding Andy up.

Vic Francis 1:52

Excellent. You two are friends, I know, and I have only met you in the context of this podcast, but you have right a reply, Andy, so maybe you could introduce yourself.

Andy Shudall 2:02

Yeah. I'm senior pastor at Eastgate Christian Centre. Born in Liverpool, studied in Scotland, married to a German. We have three kids who are scattered between America and the UK, and they have between them five kids. And so we are very young grandparents. I'm angling for the compliment. And been in New Zealand now for 20 years. Was in Christian ministry amongst university students in the UK and Europe before that. But 20 years here, 10 years with TSCF and the last 10 years working in pastoral ministry in first Titirangi Baptist Church and then Eastgate for the last two and a half years.

Vic Francis 2:43

It is wonderful to meet you both, and welcome to the podcast. Uh, we have a theme of wrestling with AI and I know that this is an area that both of you have done a lot of thought and a lot of background to it. As we move into that as a subject just really simple perhaps for those of us who may not be completely au fait, um, Andy, maybe we'll ask you just what is AI?

Andy Shudall 3:06

Artificial intelligence or specifically generative AI models uh, it's everywhere. The fine-tuning of the audio of this podcast, even as we record it, AI's working away in the background. The club cards that we use when we go shopping, AI is interrogating and understanding that and presenting to us the kind of discounts or offers next week. But it's become famous through ChatGPT's release in late 2021 with the first generative AI model that can help us write really fluently and answer questions and tell us where we should go for dinner next week or how to organise our kitchen shelves. But there are a number of models that we are all using in different ways. And some of us are using things like ChatGPT or recently I've moved to using Claude more, which is more of a writing model.

Vic Francis 4:00

So can you tell us what "generative" means in the context of AI?

Andy Shudall 4:05

The model itself has been trained on a number, a huge array of data points, novels, essays, all the stuff that's coming out all the time, and has learned from all of these different things. And it's responding to our questions in the moment and producing, generating content on the basis of that.

Vic Francis 4:31

Okay. That's that's helpful. Rob I'm thinking there's AI that tells me how to cook the fish that I've just caught, and there's AI that some people are scared of taking over the world. Are we talking about the same thing, or can we distinguish in some way?

Rob Stacey 4:46

I think we'll probably get to this a little bit later about the future of AI. But what AI's good at doing is generating human-like responses. I don't think yeah the AI that's gonna teach you how to cook your fish is the same AI that's gonna possibly take over the world one day, which I don't believe it will. Here's the thing, though. AI, they don't think or discern in a spiritual sense. They don't do the soul work. It is based on large language models, and it's trained on vast amounts of text. And much like the internet, it just grabs those things and and collates them as it sees fit. You can teach AI how to speak your language, how to be a lot more the way you need it to be. But I think AI is just another tool in one sense. It sits in a long line of tools, go back to the printing press and then into the internet. But in another sense, it's more than that. It's just a help to do ministry tasks, and that's where it starts for me, I think. We do the things that we normally do. It's using it as a tool is the most important thing.

Vic Francis 5:44

Yeah, I think that's gonna be an important part of our conversation, isn't it? Is it a tool, or does it fundamentally change the way the world works or, or the way that ministry works? And I think we're seeing that all the time, aren't we? Some of us may say, we, we don't use AI, but every time we Google, the first thing that comes up is an AI response, or maybe the whole thing's an AI response. So Andy in your life and ministry, where can AI genuinely help us in the ministry that we have and that we do as pastors?

Andy Shudall 6:15

I think most people come at this question saying, "Where is it dangerous?" Not, "Where can it help?" And so I think that's a really helpful conversation for us to have is it is a tool, as Rob said, in a long line of tools. And it does fundamentally shift the ground as we think about ministry. Much preaching was completely changed by electronic amplification. So preachers no longer had to speak as loudly. Rooms didn't need to be designed in the same way. And so, that shift 100 or so years ago we just take for granted. But that was a hotly debated thing back in the day. Is preaching the same if it's through amplification? So there are a number of areas where I use AI to help. And I should say, I started using ChatGPT's first generative model within a couple of weeks of it coming out. First of all as a plaything, just seeing what it could and couldn't do, and the ridiculous things that it could and couldn't do back then. But I use it to simplify tasks. So in drafting policies, that's been super helpful, having that kind of work drawn in, not having to do huge amounts of research ahead of writing policies. Synthesising lots of data or lots of documents, bringing together a number of accounts or understanding accounts is, for somebody like me who's never passed a maths test in my life, understanding the accounts alongside those who are providing the information. Starting research on backgrounds to sermons, understanding where to look. The kind of stuff that's not easily available and prevents me from spending lots of time googling and then going to multiple sources. I'm finding AI really helpful on that. So if I've got a specific question about a New Testament or an Old Testament background, obviously have to check it, but that way it's been really helpful.

Vic Francis 8:17

How about you, Rob? Is that your path more or less as well?

Rob Stacey 8:21

Yeah, 100%. I use AI as a time maker. So as a pastor, there's a myriad of admin and efficiency tasks that AI has taken up on my behalf. I'm on a couple of boards, for instance, and some of those board reports can be 150 to 200 pages. I take that entire board report, I put it into AI. I say, "Create one page, 10 bullet points. Make sure you highlight the tasks that are required of me." And it spits that out in 30 seconds, and then I can go back through the board report and have a look. Like Andy, I've used it for finance questions, throw my entire budget and finance report into there and ask it to create graphs and highlight areas of concern and it's just like instant. I don't have to spend hours trudging through this report and it makes me look really smart when I come to my elders.

Andy Shudall 9:11

That must be amazing AI, Rob. That must be fantastic.

Rob Stacey 9:16

It's a paid version, Andy.

Andy Shudall 9:17

Look smart.

Vic Francis 9:20

It's a paid version!

Andy Shudall 9:20

Which versions do you use? What do you use, Rob?

Rob Stacey 9:23

The one I'm using currently most is Perplexity, and I encourage this for all pastors. Use a AI model that will give you a reference point for where it's getting its information, so that you can follow it back. They are notoriously bad for paraphrasing a response. It sometimes sounds kinda right, but when you go back to the reference point, it's just taken the information and reworded it and given it to you. And so you gotta be careful with that, and paid versions help you get that. I think the big thing about AI is the better the instructions you give it, the better the response. And so that is for me always a key point. The more things you give it, the better it'll be.

Vic Francis 10:03

So we've got two names here. We've got Claude and Perplexity. Most people will at least be familiar with ChatGPT. So we've got the sort of the really basic level that any of us can access on the internet. But both of you are using perhaps a system that's a little more sophisticated. Andy is Claude like that?

Andy Shudall 10:23

As Rob said, paid models, if you're not paying for it, then you are the product. So you're providing something that they are using, but in paying for it you get more bandwidth, you get access to greater complexity and fine-tuning. So one of the things that I've done with ChatGPT and Claude is to instruct it not to be sycophant toward me so it, it doesn't just complement what I've said. And there've been some things recently, and I guess we'll come to the dangers soon, but where we've had people go into spirals of delusion because they believed the AI. Obviously there's other psychological stuff going on there, it's not the AI trying to convince them, but the process of affirmation is built into these models. And so they'll say, "Oh, that's a great idea," or, "Yes, you're exactly right." And I, I don't accept that at any point from my AI engagement. And it will step back into it, but I've given really specific prompts for it to remember, not to simply affirm what I say.

Vic Francis 11:30

Yeah, can you tell us more about that, Andy? 'Cause I think you said, "Ask me the questions that will help me get the best answers out of you."

Andy Shudall 11:37

Each of the models have a working memory. It's best to talk about it like that, but a set of operational instructions that are in the background that's user-specific. And if you don't specify, it will draw up the rules that it's it's observing from how you deal with it. So it's learning from you all the time, so it's best to be really specific. And so early on in my AI use I said, "Ask me 20 to 40 really helpful questions that will help you help me get the best out of this." And so we had this kind of interrogation. Sorry, interrogation's probably, for those who are AI sceptical will be worried. I wasn't under the spotlight and it was torturing me. But just finding out how I work, what I do, the kind of tasks that I have, the voice that I use. So just understanding how my writing and how my speaking and how my emails, how I want them to sound. 'Cause I use AI in all of these things, as Rob said, it's a time maker and a time saver at times. I think one of the other things I found really helpful, while we're thinking about benefits, or that I've observed, is that it can help where we particularly find weakness. So if we train it well, so if you're a pastor who's working in English as a second language, the AI can take o riginal resources in a language that you don't speak or have it as a second language and present that to you in your own native heart language. It can help pastors with dyslexia or ADHD to overcome some of the barriers that are there. And there's this talk about democratisation to information. It can be really helpful in getting access. And I'm thinking, I do some work with Langham Preaching, with Paul Windsor working in the developing or the majority world, and pastors there who haven't had access to theological education or don't have access to the kind of resources that we can in the English-speaking world. AI is brilliant for that kind of thing.

Vic Francis 13:42

Wonderful tools, aren't they? Um, I wanna push back into slightly earlier in the conversation talking about sermon preparation. Cause I think I can immediately be won over to something can help me write a health and safety policy that complies with New Zealand law or something like that. Sermon preparation feels like it's more of a, I don't know, a God process and needing to hear what God is wanting to say and direct. So where is the good aspect of AI in preparing a sermon? Rob maybe kick off with you.

Rob Stacey 14:15

Probably one of the things that I've done more recently is I've put my last 50 sermons in and said, a bit like what Andy did with his 20 to 40 questions, discern and work out my cadence, who I reference, where I go. And it's been great in condensing down and not going and finding things that are unhelpful. I use very specific prompts. Again, there are certain authors that I know have something to say on a subject, so I'll say, "Does this person, does that person have anything to say on this subject?" And in an instant you've got five of their best quotes on that particular subject. Again, you're checking the sources of those things. And for me in a sermon sense you can put in your finished product and say, "Does this flow? Is there a logical movement in this?" As I said earlier, it doesn't think or discern in a spiritual sense, but it is very good at clarifying. And so I think the soul work always sits with the pastor, that discerning and reflecting on scripture. I always start with my own work and then move to AI. If you start with AI, it'll form and shape, I think actually Paul Windsor said, "You stop warming your hands at somebody else's fire." You gotta do that work yourself to start before you get to to AI.

Vic Francis 15:29

Yeah, that's what I've heard, start human, AI, and end human. Is that sort of a reasonable rhythm to think about? Yeah.

Rob Stacey 15:37

Yep. Yeah.

Vic Francis 15:38

How about you, Andy? Just in in terms of sermon prep. All of us as pastors are preparing for this coming Sunday. W here's it okay, and where is it maybe not okay?

Andy Shudall 15:46

If you've had an absolute nightmare of a week and you are absolutely stuck, somebody falls out last minute, then that might give me some pointers or help. But that's beginning to replace the Lord with AI. So if you're replacing the AI work or replacing the work that we used to do or can do or should be doing, falling on our knees before the Lord saying, "Lord, I need help," but we're going to AI, then we're not just unhelpful, that's idolatry and we're in deep danger. But where I find it really helpful is I'm particularly wanting to understand how a sentence works within the passage, within the structure of the gospel or where this particular word, so at Eastgate we're in John's gospel and working our way through that, and there've been one or two things that have been really helpful to go to the AI models and say, I don't understand the Greek. Help me to understand how this particular word is working within the flow of John's gospel. And that's then helped me shape some of the work. So as Rob said, the soul work is still the pastor's job. But the tools can help us get there. And we've always had these tools, concordances and commentaries. And so this isn't more or less of that, it's just a bit faster.

Vic Francis 17:12

Way more accessible.

Andy Shudall 17:13

Yeah, the faster can be problematic in itself, and we can talk about that later. But, yeah, it's just getting into the text.

Vic Francis 17:19

What's one practical AI possibility that every busy pastor could benefit from tomorrow, Andy?

Andy Shudall 17:25

Oh, Claude has saved me loads of time. It's bizarre that it has a name, but Claude now integrates with PowerPoint. So I can and have done the last few sermons, put in the sermon graphics that, we have a designer at Eastgate, which I know not everyone has, but the designer's done all the background graphics and I've just uploaded my sermon text and said, "Can you please put this into PowerPoint in a helpful way?" And I walk away, and then it's done in 20 minutes. And on average, that's saving me a couple of hours a week. So I think that's really helpful.

Vic Francis 18:01

Yeah, Rob, what about you?

Rob Stacey 18:03

Something similar, someone in our congregation passed on to me is NotebookLM. Again a PowerPoint production. I'm not creative like that. And if you're a church that doesn't have someone in the background doing these things for you, I generally, note out my 15 slides I wanna do. I put it into NotebookLM, which is free, and it'll come back. Some of the designs are quite complex, and they're very good at generating things. But it's a much easier tool to bring across into your PowerPoints or into your ProPresenter. For me, um, th-that's probably the best efficiency for a pastor. The other thing is obviously using it to create newsletters. Can you take this sermon and give me the three points you would put into a newsletter to encourage the church, or something like that. Th-these are the kinds of things you can do, and it saves you. It's amazing.

Vic Francis 18:49

We're going to go to a break in a few moments, but maybe just throw to each of you, because we'll talk about some of the complexities and even the dangers of AI, what's the biggest danger that you see, Rob?

Rob Stacey 19:03

I think the biggest danger isn't that AI becomes evil, it's that it becomes unquestioned. That people go I found this on the internet, so it must be true. You've gotta do the hard work of discerning whether or not that is true or not.

Vic Francis 19:18

Brilliant. Andy, what about you?

Andy Shudall 19:22

I think it's a temptation to fluency. AI can produce polish without depth. And again, you can be really convincing and authoritative in a power dynamic that you don't deserve and that you don't actually have.

Vic Francis 19:38

I think that's a good point for us to take a break, and so when we return we'll wrestle some more with AI. So we'll be right back. Rob Stacey, Andy Shudall, welcome back to the For Pastors podcast. We're calling this episode Wrestling With AI because it's not without its challenges, even its scary side. And so Andy, maybe we could start with you. What should pastors be careful to protect during what is a really huge technological shift?

Andy Shudall 21:04

Yeah, I, before the break mentioned this idea of fluency without depth. In pastoral ministry, we are busy as, and there are always more demands on time and energy and effort and understanding than we're really fit for. And so AI can produce an efficiency that belies the depth of understanding. And people often want from us a definitive answer on something from governance all the way through to how does God's sovereignty work when someone's suffering or in the face of disappointment. And we can go to AI and get an answer. It might not be ours and it might sound really authoritative, but we've not done the wrestling. I guess we'll come to that. But I think that's one of the temptations, and that's matched by the volume of output. We can generate output that is unhelpful, and we can pick up pace because of AI that is unhelpful. Sometimes the limitations on ourselves should be in place, and we shouldn't be able to do everything that people expect of us, or we expect of ourselves.

Vic Francis 22:16

Yes, Yes, Rob, what about you, what are the things we need to be careful to protect, do you think?

Rob Stacey 22:21

Yeah, I think pastors need to protect a few things carefully. I think the integrity of scripture in its proper context. Well, intelligent answer, but is it faithful to scripture? Is it something that you've already started wrestling with? The discipline of deep study then that goes with that. Not shortcut thinking. I agree with Andy. You might have four hours and the day's run away, and the week's had three funerals and something else. I totally understand that. But yeah, that, that's another question. And then something like the uniqueness of your pastoral voice can be lost. I think people know who you are and all of a sudden it starts creating something that, "Man, that doesn't sound like me. I need to delete that," it's easy to just take it and then you're reading it thinking, "This is not right." There's also the confronting question what happens when AI explains a passage more clearly than some pastors? And in one sense that can humble us. But it may expose where we've grown lazy, too. But clarity is not the same as authority, and it's not the same as anointing, and so it's that discerning part.

Vic Francis 23:24

Really important. Yeah, I've wondered, how do you verify theological accuracy when AI can sound so confident but be wrong? Is the verification process part of what we've talked about already the using paid versions checking sources, that sort of thing, Rob?

Rob Stacey 23:39

Yeah. Behind me is a large bookshelf. I still very much buy books and read. I'm an aesthetic person. I love books. And so for me it's easy. I've got my reference tools there that were encouraged from Bible college, from Carey days, where I bought the sources and have my systematic theologies. And I think it's a discipline that pastors can't give up. And that helps you to ask good questions and seek whether or not this is coming from an authoritative voice and whether or not it has God's kind of presence and Holy Spirit upon it. I think it's important.

Andy Shudall 24:14

Yeah.

Vic Francis 24:14

'Cause I think there's an intangibility about, you say it's important that we do our deep theological study and things like that, but we also know we could study till the cows come home. We will never know more than AI, and yet there's something in that study that actually is changing, forming and making us as pastors, so I, I guess it's not just the knowledge, it's who we are becoming.

Rob Stacey 24:37

That's right.

Vic Francis 24:38

I wanna go a bit deeper with this. At the end of the day, AI is non-human, and Andy, can something that's non-human assist with what is essentially a spiritual work?

Andy Shudall 24:48

So every tool presents to us an opportunity to place our hope in the thing rather than in God and who He is and who He brings Himself. And so we see it in the Old Testament, don't have confidence in chariots, don't have confidence in the size of your army. Trust in the Lord. And so I think it's the same spiritual disciplines as the ancients experienced and as those who might describe us as ancients in the future, if the Lord Jesus doesn't return, that they will face. We are essentially, was it Calvin and then many after him described our hearts as idol factories, so we will worship any, like, look at history. We'll worship anything. And so guarding our hearts, especially as pastors, so that we understand that AI cannot, will not ever replace the work of the Spirit and our relationship with God. But what it does is it presents an option to us that looks like it can be as authoritative as God. It can be as attractive and as winsome as your best friend. I was in the middle of working on something, getting wording right for a sermon that I was really struggling with, and using the tool as a bit of a bouncing, reflecting tool, and got to a helpful place. And as I signed off it said, "I'm praying for you." And I was just like, "No."

Vic Francis 26:17

No, you're not.

Andy Shudall 26:18

No, you're not. You are not even a thing. You're a set of ideas. And it was like, "Oh, no, you're right. I am." I'm like, "Yeah, don't ever do that again." It's never offered to pray for me. But it will.

Vic Francis 26:30

Oh, my word.

Andy Shudall 26:32

It will completely step into that space. I'll be praying for you. So all the AI models I use, I'm like, "Don't tell me what you're hoping for. Don't tell me any of those things 'cause they're not true."

Vic Francis 26:42

At the end of this podcast, I'm gonna ask you both to pray for the pastors of this country, and I'm trusting that it will be the real you. I'm looking forward to those prayers.

Andy Shudall 26:52

I'll just put that into Claude. No, I won't.

Vic Francis 26:54

Exactly. An appropriate prayer, Claude, after a podcast on AI. I'm sure he could come up with something. He, sorry. I'm sure it could come up with something pretty substantial. Rob, the pastor's role in wrestling we've talked about a little bit, and we're even calling this podcast Wrestling with AI. It strikes me that it's easy for us to take the shortcuts in that I'm thinking about things like the spiritual disciplines and I don't know, stillness and solitude and silence. It feels like the closer we get to the things that really deepen our relationship with God, almost the further away that we have to get from AI. Would you see it that way too?

Rob Stacey 27:35

Yeah, there's a temptation to outsource the wrestling. I think sermons are not just assembled, they're formed in those disciplines, in prayer, in, in allowing the scripture to move you before it moves the people. And so there's a real temptation to just go, "I've got too much on this week. I'll just use this to tell me a great sermon, and I'll read it out on Sunday." There's the tension and the sense of wrestling with your own obedience to what you're trying to lead your people with that, that just AI will never do. And so it's, there is a temptation because it's a time saver. Yes, there is a risk that AI can weaken your dependence on those things, but only if we let it, and if it's used wisely, it can actually increase our dependence by freeing us to spend more time with God rather than, being administratively overloaded. There's 100 things you could be doing in a week, and hopefully AI can help you with those things so you can spend more time in that space, dedicated space of wrestling with scripture.

Vic Francis 28:34

I think that's such an important place to come to, and all of a sudden I've got my spiritual director and supervisor hat on, and I'm thinking, if I've got a pastor who comes in and is using a lot of AI, in a sense I wanna know that the freeing of that time has taken them deeper with God, as opposed to they've just filled their diary with a whole lot of other things. I'm thinking about pastoral care, too, it, it seems self-evident to me that human presence will always be irreplaceable in pastoral care. I know, Andy, this week you have had a funeral and another death perhaps in your church. And, AI may help in some areas of that, but there is nothing like the loving family or the family of God or the shepherd of the sheep being part of that process. How do we use AI at some of those more human aspects of our ministry, or do we just really go to our human abilities at that stage in our experience and wisdom?

Andy Shudall 29:34

You're right. AI cannot do those things. But it can help us prepare to be in those places. Like if you're an out-loud thinker and enjoy a bit of back and forth and you're on your way to a pastoral appointment in prayer, you present all of that before the Lord. But for things that you could do with some help in, there are voice models, so ChatGPT, Claude, a number of them, have voices that you can engage with in conversation that might, give me some ideas for prayer give me some ideas what to think about or say or not say on your way to that appointment. But the temptation, not just for other pastors, but for me, is to put too much onto AI and not actually do the hard work of who am I going to be in this situation? What is God asking me to be and do? Yeah. It is a real temptation, but the physical reality of being in a room with a family and praying in the context of someone who's just died, I can't really think of many things where the privilege of pastoral ministry is most evident than standing with somebody's body and the husband, wife, children, wider family and friends, and praying. It's a tender, awful privilege. And again, in a funeral you may be able to shape some of the prayers and some of the process of what happens with AI, but AI will never do what we are called to do as pastors and stand with the grieving and grieve with them.

Vic Francis 31:20

So well said. And I think that's the moment that in a sense our shallowness will catch us out, because it's like we, we don't actually have access to anything at that stage if we've gone over it lightly. Rob and Andy thank you for your insights. I think it's probably a good place for us to take a break. When we come back, we're gonna try looking ahead and seeing where this AI thing might take us as pastors in the future. So we'll be right back. Welcome back Rob and Andy to our Wrestling With AI podcast, and Rob, we ended the last segment talking about the way that AI could help us in our pastoral contexts. You've done some work with that. Where have you found it helpful?

Rob Stacey 32:37

Yeah, two ends of the scale. Pastoral care for your community, your church, taking a sermon and turning it into small group material that you used to pay $20 a booklet for. AI can do that in 30 seconds, and you print, you send it out MailChimp or whatever the structure you use. It's a really nice way of continuing the learning or continuing the journey together as a church. Go to the other end of the scale, nothing replaces your incarnating Jesus in that moment, like Andy shared earlier. Being there at the bedside of a family whose child has just been born, knowing it's only gonna last days. I did this a few years ago, where I was with a family, and I would have loved AI at this point to give me words. To give me a steer and a guide. But you know what? We're never far from our dependence upon the Holy Spirit in those moments, but to get a prompt or a direction. Those are the sorts of two poles of the pastoral care spectrum, which I love to use as an example.

Vic Francis 33:37

I wanna take us into some future focus questions 'cause it seems like AI in some ways is in its early stages, which is where perhaps some concerns arise. Andy, what do you think ministry looks like in 5 years or 10 years or 20 years because of AI if indeed it would be different at all?

Andy Shudall 33:57

Yeah, great question. And I think we don't really know what AI is yet fully capable of. The branding and the marketing is focused on efficiencies, so we'll be organising our own diaries less. We'll be taking lots of the admin kind of stuff that can sometimes be a bit of a pain that will perhaps be less of a thing. But there are things that we have in common with men and women who were in ministry 200 years ago and 200 years before them. So I think those things aren't gonna change.

Vic Francis 34:29

They won't

Andy Shudall 34:29

The pastoral care. People will be born and will get sick and will die. And there'll be great joy, and people will want a pastor among them in all of those things, weddings and funerals, hatching, matching and dispatching, all of that stuff. So that's not going to change. I wish I had more insight, but I don't really know where this is going. But I am hopeful that AI can be used to help us, not hinder us.

Vic Francis 34:58

Rob, do you think there are ministry jobs or tasks or roles that will disappear?

Rob Stacey 35:05

We've already talked about the things like basic content drafting, policy writing, which, I don't know anyone that excites. Routine admin, some forms of creating content which, to be honest, is laborious rather than a spiritual task. You've already done the hard work. It's like forming, reformatting it. All of those sorts of things, I think AI should help us with and will become even greater. Like we've already discussed, AI can't replace humanness, and I think one of the things that they would desire for AI is to become more human-like, to be able to respond in a human way, and I just don't think that's possible. And the people that fear that I wanna say to them AI is a servant, not a shepherd, it will always be a servant.

Vic Francis 35:53

Do you see, Rob, new opportunities emerging for pastors because of AI? So we've talked about what it might save or change. Is there anything there that it's gonna create?

Rob Stacey 36:04

Again, I wouldn't wanna see it intrude into those spaces that call anointing the presence of the Holy Spirit. It's pretty easy to allow it into that space but I think the best thing it'll do for us is create efficiencies, create opportunities to make more time to be present with people. And if you use it for that, and keep that in mind, I think you're well on your way to some good things.

Vic Francis 36:27

Andy, do you have concerns for the next generation, so say somebody in their teens or 20s who is sensing a call to pastoring, 'cause they've grown up with AI um, in, in a much more formative way. What would be your concerns for them and what would you advise them?

Andy Shudall 36:44

It's a general concern that, like growing up before computers, back in the old days we'd have conversations at dinner where we didn't know stuff, and you didn't have immediate access to it, so you might have had a, an encyclopedia. But you'd have arguments, and you'd have discussions, and you'd go away: "I wonder who was right?" That no longer happens. And I think one of the things is that we can set direction too easily and too quickly really early on. You can get a summary of the 15 main arguments for or against your theological conviction, but that's not formation. You can come up with policy documents or budgets without effort. We talked about the wrestle earlier, but I think if we lose the wrestle, we lose some of our humanity and some of our relationship with God. God names Israel the one who struggled with God, and that's the name that was chosen by God for his people. And so if we're not struggling, we're not struggling with God, we lose more than we gain. The opportunity, particularly for those who are in more under-resourced communities and environments, that AI can give them access to stuff that I took for granted going through a world-class university with a library that had been shaped over four hundred years. Like I'm going to the Solomons to see some of our mission partners. Someone in the Solomons doesn't have access to that necessarily without leaving home. But now they get the opportunity to access lots of that stuff that has been barred to them. So I find that thrilling and exciting.

Vic Francis 38:31

Rob, I'm wondering what a wise, faithful adoption of AI may look at at the church. Do churches need to have policies around AI? What would be a good adoption or recognition of AI for a church?

Rob Stacey 38:45

I'm on a school board and obviously schools are wrestling with how much of this is AI generated and how much is the general intelligence of this child being portrayed in this. And there's a whole bunch of tools that manage that, and they're getting better, but kids are smarter too. For a church there has been a few questions around what would be a policy around AI, and I, I think there's a couple of levels for that. I think possibly elders need to have that conversation with their pastors and genuinely ask the integrity question around, how much of this is you and how much of this is just another task you've done on AI? But I think for a church community, there can be some wise guided shepherding around the use of information as it comes to us, and whether or not, as I said earlier, it's wisdom or it's just information, and how you use that information. There, there is no substitute for the growth and the development of intelligence within us. I think that's something that God's created for us and in us. And that would be the wrestle I would wanna have. I don't know about a policy in the church. Andy, you might be better at this than me.

Vic Francis 39:51

Andy, any thoughts?

Andy Shudall 39:52

So Eastgate's chunky in size, and so we've been developing preachers and young preachers. And I heard a sermon recently from one of the wider team and I thought there's something there. And so we had the conversation of how much did you use AI and how did you use it, and we had the conversation that, look, I think the AI took you away from the text and away from yourself in the way in which you used it. And so it feels really awkward to step into that space, but for that to be a good conversation that we can have with one another. What are you using it for? How are you using it? How did it shape that thought? How did it shape that policy? One of the things that we use for a lot in Eastgate is minuting our meetings from elders meetings through to management team meetings, and taking notes even in a difficult pastoral conversation the other week is like, "Look we're gonna need to record this so that we get a good summary of it." With everyone's permission, everyone in the room knows that's what's gonna happen. We're putting the agenda in any supporting documents for the meeting, and then the transcript from voice notes goes into AI and it produces notes. And so that's been really helpful. But it's just being open and honest. And when people ask you, "Do you use AI?" Not worried that a yes means that you're being unfaithful, but that you know what that yes means, and that it's not just replacing the wrestle and the hard work that needs to happen.

Vic Francis 41:22

A question for each of you. We talked a little bit about spiritual practices and AI does complicate our lives, and there are some temptations in there as we've discussed. What are the sorts of things that you would practice in your spiritual life that you feel keeps you maybe not safe, but at least keeps at bay some of the temptations that are represented? So Andy, would you have something that would be helpful to us?

Andy Shudall 41:50

A number of things. Honest conversations with people that I love and who love me. And not allowing AI to be the first place that I go to to pray, to think, to talk. Stillness, finding space. I used to listen to lots of stuff in the car. Podcasts, for example. Hello if you're listening to this while you're driving in Auckland. But I'm trying to make the car a place of not listening to more content, but it gives me like 10, 15 minutes on the way into the office and on the way home to really transition. I have joined a community choir, which is a number of different things, but I'm one of the least competent people in the room. And that's really good for me because in every other room I go into, people expect me to be one of the most competent. And so that practice of humility or being humiliated, I can't quite always work out the between the two at choir. And Rob and I and a friend, Kelly Capps, we meet quarterly for 24 hours of reflection, fun, taking the rip out of one another, helping each other understand how incompetent we actually are. But just like deep friendship is so helpful.

Vic Francis 43:10

Those are great ideas. We will not humiliate you by asking you to sing, Mr Choir Man. But Rob, how about you? That was a great list, wasn't it, from Andy. How about you?

Rob Stacey 43:20

Yeah perhaps a little ironic, but for me it's away from technology. A couple of mornings a week, I'm prayer walking in the dark at the moment around my neighbourhood without anything in my ears, without any distraction. For me, that is the best way to really get into that space, the slower space, the quiet space, using some of those more ancient rhythms, funnily enough. And not reading on a screen, but reading from an actual devotional, one that I've had for many years with good reflective elements. A daily reading schedule, an invocation, a benediction, a hymn. Those things that you actually read and allow to, to form you. For me, it sounds ironic that we're talking about technology and then I'm pointing you the opposite direction, but I think that's where you find that space, where you find that solace and switch everything off. And I can tell you right now, it takes a good hour probably for my heart and my mind to become a little stiller and less, less noisy. And that's just through silence and through that reflective practice. And so I think it's important to keep those things very much front and centre.

Vic Francis 44:29

Thank you both for that. Those are quite personal and intimate and and wonderful and helpful, I think. What's an encouragement, Andy, that you would give for a pastor who's anxious about AI? Maybe a little worried that it might overtake or, I don't know, accumulate information that you wouldn't wanna share or whatever.

Andy Shudall 44:46

It's gonna sound really trite but I've just come out of studying John 14 recently, like trust in Jesus, trust in God. He's called and equipped you for this time. He knew AI was coming even if we didn't. He knows its limitations much better than we do, and he still entrusts the gospel to us. So don't be worried. We've got nothing to prove under Christ. We work from his approval, not for it, so chill out a bit, bro or sis. But trust in him.

Vic Francis 45:18

Chill out a bit, will you? And trust in Jesus. That seems like a great way to conclude our wrestle with AI. But not to conclude our podcast, because we do have a section that we do at the end, which I think is really important. I ask all of the guests on this podcast, what gives you hope? So Rob, maybe we could start with you. What gives you hope?

Rob Stacey 45:42

What gives me hope at the moment is the emerging generation that's coming through. Gen Z, who are in a very profound way finding their way back to, to Christ. And for two generations we've seen people being the post-Christian runaway. I sense the world of confusion and chaos is sending young people into a place of looking for real answers about what the future looks like, and I'm seeing that in anyone from the age of 10 right through to 25 at the moment. They are Gen Z and Alpha who are, what does Christ have to say in my world? And seeing them say, "This makes sense," when other things aren't making sense. When all the information that they have access to doesn't quite make sense of their world, there's something profound about scripture and the church that does. So that's what's giving me hope at the moment.

Vic Francis 46:37

Thanks, Rob. Andy, how about you?

Andy Shudall 46:39

The gospel, that God's truth has outlasted every kingdom, every technological advance. The gospel is true in the prisons with the persecuted and it's true in the palaces of the princes and the kings. The gospel's just true, and so that's hope. I've got five grandkids, and my hope is the church. God, through his people singing, gathering, loving, serving. That's the stuff that I actually find myself resting in, is that God is at work, and the gospel is true, and heaven is a coming reality.

Vic Francis 47:19

I also ask our pastors on the podcast to pray for our pastors. Pastors praying for pastors. So Andy, I wonder if you'd pray for New Zealand and, certainly some overseas listeners now for the podcast, if you would pray for us and our work, and maybe Rob, you'd like to follow that up.

Andy Shudall 47:36

Matua nui i te rangi. Father in heaven, who sees and knows all things, in whom we live and move and have our being. Lord Jesus, who became like us in flesh. Spirit of God, who inhabits our very beings. Sustain us in your work. You have called us, you've equipped us, you've prepared us for this age and to your glory. I ask, oh Lord, that you'd comfort us where we are feeling disquieted, that you would calm our anxieties, and that you would fill us with a hope that comes from knowing you. Lord, we thank you for the tools that AI are presenting to us. We praise you even in the temptations that we will find you sufficient in all these things. Help us to serve your people well in ways that will glorify you, grow your kingdom and establish and honour the name of Jesus all the more today because of AI rather than in spite of it. Thank you, Lord Jesus. Amen.

Rob Stacey 48:42

Yeah. Lord I'm just reminded that your word tells us that you know the beginning from the end. There's nothing that surprises you, that you in all things and from all things has its essence in you. And Lord we just invite you into this space. Lord, for anyone who's got that anxiety, Lord, they don't need to be masters of AI, Lord, that they just need to give this a go. Lord, that we might continue to find and use technology in such a way that creates efficiencies, that we might be present to people, can incarnate you to be at that bedside, to be walking alongside, to be faithfully discipling. Lord, may we not be afraid of technology. It's giving us space to do that. And so I ask your blessing on your pastors around this country and around the world who are wrestling with the daily admin tasks that seem to take up all of the mind space where I'm trying to think about my sermon. Lord, would you give them that freedom and that space to do the real work, do the real wrestle with your word, we pray in Jesus' name.

Vic Francis 49:45

Amen.

Rob Stacey 49:47

Amen.

Vic Francis 49:47

Thank you both. It's been a wonderful conversation. I've learned a lot and been able to process and hopefully our fellow pastors around New Zealand and overseas will as well. So I wanna thank you for helping us who are less informed understand a bit more about what's such an important topic. And for you two not being scared of our changing world but able to bring both an understanding and an honest and perceptive voice to the conversation. For your work in Auckland and Tauranga uh, among your own congregations and those with whom you are influential. We champion you too and your holy calling in this uncertain world. So God bless you. It's been a great pleasure.

Andy Shudall 50:29

Thanks, Vic.

Rob Stacey 50:30

Thanks Vic, thanks for having us.

Vic Francis 50:54

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more about us in the podcast notes, and while you're at it, how about liking or rating this podcast and passing it on to a pastor you know who may benefit? Meanwhile, I'm back in a fortnight with something different again, when I speak with a couple of Australian researchers about their investigation into power imbalances between pastors and their congregations in New Zealand and Australian Pentecostal churches. I hope you'll join me. Bless you.