A Conversation with Strahan Coleman

Welcome to For Pastors, a podcast which aims to "champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world".

In this episode, Vic Francis talks with Kiwi poet, musician and contemplative Strahan Coleman on life and faith and illness and family and quiet fire and gazing nakedly on the love of God. And much, much more.

Strahan is a popular speaker who is becoming widely known through his trio of prayer books, which are attracting growing international interest. 

To connect with Strahan, check out his Commoners Communion website. (For Pastors can confirm there is no such thing as communistcommunion.com so don't try that!).

Meanwhile, for more information on Vic and Solace, check out our website or search for us on Facebook or Instagram. And if you would like to support this podcast, please become a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/forpastors

Welcome, then, to For Pastors, A Conversation With Strahan Coleman.

Transcript

Vic Francis 0:00

Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and welcome to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. In this episode, I talk with Kiwi poet, musician, contemplative Strahan Coleman on life and faith and illness and family and quiet fire and gazing nakedly on the love of God. And much, much more. Strahan is a popular speaker and is becoming widely known through his trio of prayer books which are attracting wide international interest, and I think you're going to like him. Welcome today to For Pastors, A Conversation With Strahan Coleman. Strahan Coleman, welcome to the For Pastors podcast.

Strahan Coleman 1:11

Kia ora. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Vic Francis 1:15

Now when I Google Strahan Coleman, I'm told you are, quote, "An award-winning musician, poet, writer, teacher and spiritual director from Aotearoa." Of course, you can't entirely trust Google, can you? So how would you like to introduce yourself today?

Strahan Coleman 1:30

Yeah, classic Google. It's probably partially true. My name Strahan, is Gaelic. It means poet, minstrel or sage. And for, for one reason or another, I feel like that is largely who I am. The word teacher freaks me out. I don't know if it's just my Baptist upbringing or whether it's something else. I feel the heart behind all of those things has always been my desire to, to know and share God. A teacher, maybe. Maybe I'm just more of a sharer or an inviter. And, uh, but I probably am a poet by nature even if I am not a poet by job or career. And, um, I love creation, I love the arts, I love people and I most definitely love coffee. The one thing from all of that is that I am a middle child, which is the cause of much achievement and energy.

Vic Francis 2:19

We'll forgive you for a lot of things over that, eh?

Strahan Coleman 2:22

Yeah. I'm saying that at the top here so that any kind of sarcasm or stuff that comes out can be noted.

Vic Francis 2:27

Yes. Like that, "Oh, that's Strahan. He's a middle child. Let's move on." Yeah. Oh, that's great. It's so good to have you here. Your name is Strahan, and you are a Strahan. I didn't know that, so that's a really fascinating thing. In this first section as we talk, we're gonna talk about life and faith. I wonder, would you give us a glimpse into the Coleman household? What does that look and feel like?

Strahan Coleman 2:47

Yeah. Well, I live in Tairua, in the Coromandel, which is a small town in Coromandel. About 1500 people. It's the most aged population in New Zealand, so we kinda live in a retirement town, but, uh, we live in a house beside the beach. My family, um, I have three sons. My eldest is 13, my second 11 and my third's seven. So we watch a lot of cricket and we talk a lot of cricket. And soccer, we're at the nets all the time. Our kids are, are very energetic. They, if... Katie, my wife, we've been married 18 years. She was a fashion designer when we first got married, and we're one of those rare households where we both have a severely idealistic, artistic personality persuasion, so all of our children are very sensory, sensitive, excited, intuitive, engaged. And our house is a sort of rolling tornado of intensity and noise and energy and emotion. So we are, just imagine sort of five artists ranging from

Vic Francis 3:49

Five artists.

Strahan Coleman 3:50

Yeah, 40 down to seven, all living in the same house. And that's us, and I love it. It's amazing.

Vic Francis 3:56

A rolling tornado of five artists. I love that idea. Um, along the way, you've talked a lot about and lived through a fair bit of illness. And it's influenced your life, I guess, and your writing and your faith. I mean, how are you at the moment and where are you finding God in that journey of the moment?

Strahan Coleman 4:16

Well, my health journey, yeah, like you say, it's been a long one. I mean, I've been probably consciously dealing with chronic health issues for a good 10 years or so now, maybe longer, maybe 12, 13 years. But it's sort of been part of my life since I was a child, so I feel in some ways it's, it's such a normal part of my life it kind of moves a little bit to the background. But, last year I had my wisdom teeth out, and for whatever reason I just had some terrible reaction to it, and so the last year I've been very poor health, very fatigued. Very unwell. And just this last couple months have been coming right. But, I think because I've been through these spells so many times in my life, I have almost, and my language kind of breaks down a bit, but I've kind of just engulfed it into who I am and the way I understand God. I think five years ago I was doing a lot of fighting, you know, wrestling, trying to get out. Now I tend to say, um, "Thank you, Father, for this opportunity to experience the cross and to love you and to love others through, through this pain, or through this fatigue, or this brain fog, or whatever." So health up and down, not great. It's definitely not a lovely bowed ribbon on top of sort of situation. But I think I've found a way to draw it into my communion that it's a little bit more power-less every year.

Vic Francis 5:39

Ah, yeah, that's a great phrase. A little bit more power-less, even though you're still living with it and the outcomes of that.

Strahan Coleman 5:46

Yeah, it's just a reality for me, and I think I don't know if it's genetics, I don't know. You know, for whatever reason and I just have to trust and believe that it's not a surprise to God. My life, who I am, is displayed through the brokenness of a body that refuses to, um, to do what it should. And I've actually come to enjoy and be grateful that is one of the Gospels I get to preach in my time.

Vic Francis 6:14

Yeah. As you say, you live in a small town. You live in Tairua, a beautiful place. Um, my, my brother lives in Tairua. He is one of that aged population. I hope he listens to this podcast. And of course you know him from down there. But you're also attracting plenty of attention, uh, with books and speaking engagements. I'm wondering how you bridge the anonymity, I guess, of Tairua, or being in a small town in New Zealand, with the increasing public demands that are happening in your life.

Strahan Coleman 6:43

Yeah, it's a strange one, that. It sort of fascinates me. All of our friends down here have no idea what I do or, you know, I'm an absolute mystery to them. Like, they just think, they don't know what I do, but they're too scared to ask.

Vic Francis 6:55

They should Google you, and then they'll find out you're a writer, and a poet, and a this and a that.

Strahan Coleman 7:00

Yeah, yeah. But most of our friends down here, just the way it works, our life works, they're not followers of Jesus. So they, they're terrified to say, "What, what exactly are you doing right now?" And I think that that's meant that my daily life is just really focused on ordinary, you know, it's very, very normal and ordinary. And so it's a strange thing that there's almost this other life that I have that people are happy to come along with me on my own journey with God, and it's a real blessing. But it feels so different to my context. You know, even I think of pastoral work, usually in pastoral work, if your church is growing or, or you feel like you're doing well, every Sunday you're seeing people in front of you that are engaging with you and, and materially. But in what I do, I never see faces or people at that material gathered degree. So in a way, I feel very blessed that I'm almost hidden from anything that if there is any of that out there, it's hidden from me and that means that I can just focus on God and prayer. So I feel unaffected. But it is a strange life to be doing ministry with people who are not in my immediate context. Yeah, I'd say it's not the healthiest thing. There's health in it, but I've been very careful to almost lock it off and just focus on my church that I belong to, focus on my family and on the relationships that I'm accountable to and love them.

Vic Francis 8:15

What is it like for you leaving Tairua? I imagine you're travelling a fair bit, at least within New Zealand, getting speaking engagements or whatever. So I guess, do you have to put on a different hat when you're moving around the country?

Strahan Coleman 8:27

No, no, I love it. Maybe that is the thing that, like living where I live, and being blessed enough to be invited to, to do stuff elsewhere, I just get so energised being with people. I love the church, I love ministry, I love people, and it, it just gets me really excited. And so I feel like I turn up a little bit like a child in a candy shop. So it's hard to kinda hide my desire. But I had this experience maybe, phwoar, just like 20 years ago when I first started preaching at churches or doing ministry. Any time that I did ministry, I used to come home, pour myself a little whiskey and watch a Netflix show. And Katie noticed it, my wife noticed it, and one day she just said, "Don't you think it's strange that every time you come home from ministry you need to have a drink and watch something?" Whiskey doesn't love me, so I could, we're talking like a very, very small, non-effectual amount of whiskey. But it, it was some kind of comfort for me. And it was a great question because it made me think, what is this kind of tension that I'm holding? Or what is it about ministry that when I come back from it, I feel like I have to detox or I have to unload or numb or whatever. And it led me down this path for me of realising that I often felt like I needed to perform at some level. I needed to be a charismatic speaker, or I needed to smile at people when they talked to me, or there was pressure to be spiritual. And I went through a season of just saying, "I don't wanna live like that. I don't wanna have to have these big crashes after ministry." And it probably took me, like, three or four years, but I, I just started training myself to be okay with Strahan and let Strahan the actual person share the gospel. And so now when I do any ministry, I don't feel pressure. I kinda feel like if you don't like who I am, then that's okay. Like, I just wanna love Jesus with you. And I've found that as I've settled into that, there's less translation issue between my life and my work, and I'm really grateful for that.

Vic Francis 10:24

Is that a reflection of a changing relationship with God as well? I guess more security or better understanding of who God is and how He loves you?

Strahan Coleman 10:31

Yeah. Oh, man. The first years that I was sick, I was a travelling musicianary, preaching the gospel in bars and living rooms and all over the world and 100% had a chip on my shoulder, without realising it, that I felt I needed to be that for God. I mean, I loved it. I wasn't doing it out of, you know, duty or anything. But when I got sick, it ruined me because I spent years of basically being bedridden and not being able to prove myself to God, and I just realised my identity was wrapped up in it. I was a bit of a workaholic. I didn't know what to say to God. I was just like, "What do I do with you?" Like, "I've got nothing to pray about. I'm not doing any mission. Like, what do you even wanna talk to me about?" And I think in that process was forced to kind of throw myself on God and realise His love for me as a complete, what felt, incompetent human. I couldn't be a great father, I couldn't be a great husband, I certainly couldn't be a great son. I couldn't be missional. I couldn't be effective, and yet I discovered God's love there, and I think that began to break down for me all of these ideas I didn't know I even had about, yeah, who I am and what really matters. And you're right, that was the source for me of a new kind of freedom of saying, like it or leave it, in all my weakness and all my middle childness or whatever I am who God has made me to be and I'm loved. And therefore any praise for any work that I do is just so irrelevant. I'm still human and I still struggle, but that was a key for me, and it really did change my life.

Vic Francis 12:11

Are there some assumptions about God that had to die or adapt during those different seasons?

Strahan Coleman 12:16

So many. So many. It's a long story, but the week that my son was born was the week that we went full-time missionary without any income. And we were kind of laugh-crying on the way home from the hospital, being like, "We must be insane." What people give up their job, you know, the same week they have their first child. And I remember saying to Katie, I said, "We'll know that God is done with this calling in our life when He stops providing for us financially." That was one thing that I, in my mind, God always financially provides for those doing His work. Well, within three years we had no money. Yeah. And we spent years without money. Days where we'd skip meals, no petrol in the car, the whole thing. And it went on for years. So yeah, if I do this, God does that, doesn't exist.

Vic Francis 13:01

Wow.

Strahan Coleman 13:01

I guess the God who cares more about my behaviour than our, our communion, that God didn't exist when it came down to it. And I think the God with easy answers. I've been sick a long time and, and people are always, "How do you make sense of that? And what has God said?" And honestly, my answer is nothing. If anything, God has said, "Suffering will come, and I love you in your suffering, and will you still love me and follow me?" But He's given me no answers, and I think it was the breakdown of my kind of Calvinist Pentecostalism of going, "This is not simple, man." And if I have to sit around waiting for God to make things clear, it's game over, because He is refusing. So either love God and embrace the mystery of some of this stuff, or I walk away, but there's no certainty for me in this season, and you can say that out loud, but I think experiencing a deep pain is another thing altogether.

Vic Francis 13:51

We each have our own journey, of course, and yours is in one sense unique to you. But what have you learned on the journey that might be helpful for the rest of us? Something that might really resonate for each of us on our own unique journeys.

Strahan Coleman 14:05

It's a big question. You would think that after all of this time I would have some kind of amazing response to a question like that, because in the context of my weakness and my sickness, I get asked that a lot. But, I think in time what I've come to realise is, is the reason for me at least, the reason I stayed with God, the reason I was okay in suffering at the end of the day, was that I just did really want God. And I, I find a lot of comfort in the Psalms and in David. You know, he's constantly throwing his need back on God in a relational way. He's trying to understand, he is trying to make sense, but he's always saying, "I just need you. I just want you." Like, "Where are you? Come save me. Come be my hope. I know you will. I know that's who you are." And I think for me it sounds so obvious, but sometimes we can slip away from really wanting God and really knowing that it's God we want, and turn to needing answers or security or healing or... And I think that's when we get lost. And so for me, I think the big thing is I'm just, if someone listening to this is in a place of just complete struggle and heartbreak, is just are we able to sit in longing for God and suffer the pain hopefully in that he's drawing us into his heart? Is he still worth it? And it's a hard question to answer, and it, it sounds maybe hyper-spiritual, but I think if we can say yes to that, we can weather a lot of storms. Maybe that's Peter in the storm, is, was when he looked at Jesus. When he stayed on Jesus and not the storm, he was okay, but when he considered the waves and the storm beneath his feet, he sank. And I think that that's been my story, is just how do I continually gaze upon Jesus, not ignoring the storm, not pretending like it doesn't exist, but not letting it be the primary focus of my attention.

Vic Francis 15:59

Thank you

15:59

for that. I think that

Vic Francis 16:00

will be profound maybe for some of our listeners. Strahan, you are a writer, and a poet and you've written a number of books. I just wonder as we come to the end of this first segment if you'd be happy to read to us from one of your writings.

Strahan Coleman 16:16

Oh, I'd love to. I was a, a young man who felt so alone and so, so unsure if he could be received and accepted. I think when I look back in my 20s, I don't think I realised how afraid I was that I wasn't enough, and I think in my life with God it was a constant fear, like a hum, like a white noise in the back of my soul, that just said he could go at any moment. And so when I got sick and went through this journey that we talked about and I realised that God didn't leave, it was a life-altering revelation. And I remember sitting, I was used to go out to this retreat centre, and I remember sitting out looking in the window. I remember the exact moment of just being so filled with an awareness that I couldn't even push God away even if I wanted to, that the option actually isn't mine because He just pursues me. And I kind of opened my pad and I wrote this prayer, poem really, about that. So I thought I'd, I'd just read that. It's called Never Alone.

Vic Francis 17:21

Wonderful.

Strahan Coleman 17:25

Never alone. Never any breath alone. Never a thought or quiver alone of any kind. Never a beat or pulse or love for any human soul alone. Alone is impossible. Alone is death, but even then, never alone. Alone would be to live without the womb of divine oxygen surrounding human spark and cell. There can be no alone, not even for enemies, not even for emptiness itself in its vast taunts and separation intent, there can be no alone. There is no space not filled with divine presence, nor the envelope of creator breath. Alone is invention, lowbrow imagination built to shelter human shame, the weapon that tried to slay its maker. Yet even still, never alone.

Vic Francis 18:45

We'll be right back. Strahan Coleman, welcome back. That poem, that prayer, Never Alone, was beautiful. It comes from one of your books. Tell us about your books and where could we get hold of them?

Strahan Coleman 19:59

Yeah. Through that process of getting unwell, I couldn't sing, and so I started writing these prayers and sharing them, and they ended up turning into just these little prayer books, Prayer Volume One, Two and Three, and they are well, they're just like that, and they have little devotions in them, and they're sort of hopefully little companions to prayer. If anyone's interested, they're welcome to have a look. I think they're on my website, commonerscommunion.com, which is a mouthful, and I'm not saying communist, which is what

Vic Francis 20:29

communistcommunion.com

Strahan Coleman 20:31

Which is what Americans think. They're like, "It's Strahan from Communist Communion." And I'm like, "That's not doing me any favours right now."

Vic Francis 20:38

I'm gonna check out that website, the co- communistcommunion.com, and see what's on there. See if it's anything better than commonerscommunion.com.

Strahan Coleman 20:43

It does sound very communist, Communist Communion.

Vic Francis 20:48

Indeed. We will have the accurate website on our show notes if you miss it in amongst Strahan's and my garbled messages, but that's, that's wonderful. Are the books going well? Are people enjoying reading them? Are you getting good feedback?

Strahan Coleman 21:01

I mean, the prayer books are one of the most fun things I've ever got to do. I think the stories that I hear from people about how they're used blow my mind. I mean, I started writing those prayers in 2017 when liturgy wasn't cool yet and I was just genuinely shocked that anyone would ever read someone else's prayers. I thought it was super weird. Now it's like, oh, it's all cool. So yeah, it's been, it's, that's been really beautiful, and I think just a sign that God, God does what He's gonna do. He's so able to bring the most incredible life out of such incredible darkness and suffering, and I think the prayer books are sort of, for me, the sign of Jesus in my life, and I'm really grateful for that.

Vic Francis 21:39

Yeah. That's fantastic. We spoke a little before the break about, uh, you becoming increasingly known, in some ways it's through the books, but as a speaker as well. I've, personally heard you speak over the last couple of years at the national gathering of spiritual directors in New Zealand, in churches and to leaders of church movements. And then coming up, you're one of the keynote speakers in August at the Abide Conference for leaders. You're a popular author. You run contemplative and prayer retreats. There are lots of strings to your bow, in a sense. I'm wondering, how have you stayed grounded as your influence has increased?

Strahan Coleman 22:17

To be honest, I don't feel very much like the person you're describing, you know? I'm probably aware at how maybe it reads from, from the outside, but I feel like a very longing, needy person. My body is weak. I can't do all the things I wanna do. I am a father of three vivacious boys, which means that I have three little mirrors reminding me of how much work the Lord needs to do in my heart, you know, in my life. And I think I just have a deep, powerful longing for God, and the distance between how I wanna be with him and where I am is so vast that between all of those things, I feel as though I don't have enough time to even consider what other people are thinking or what I'm doing. I guess I feel so sheltered by those things, by my, my frailty, and therefore I'm too aware of, of my need to be worried about being fancy or cool or special. I'd love to be, but I just don't feel that.

Vic Francis 23:25

I'd love to be, yeah. Oh, I, oh, I wish I had to stay grounded, but it's easy to stay grounded. All I have to do is go home and

Strahan Coleman 23:32

I mean, I don't know how other people out there do it as, as a parent and a husband, you know? I love being a father. I love being a husband, and they will teach, and I, I actually feel like this a lot about ministry and, and my pastoral friends is, you know, ministry work and working with people in that context is pretty quick at helping you discover your shadows and your patterns and, um, the work almost takes care of itself, so that's how I feel about it anyway.

Vic Francis 23:58

I think that's a fair comment. Um, you are, though, uniquely positioned, in a sense. You're seeing the church in quite a bit of breadth, I would say. Is there anything that you feel like Jesus is trying to recover in His church right now? Sort of what's happening? What do you see?

Strahan Coleman 24:17

From my perspective and my own experience and what's on my heart, it does feel like we're in a major crossroads, I think, especially in the Protestant world. And even within the Protestant world, let's say again non-denominational world as we try to, I guess, acknowledge some of our separation from historical Christianity without losing the beautiful winds that have come through our tradition, if you could call it that. So there's a bit of turbulence there. It's a bit like when you're between the North Island, South Island, you've got the meeting of the oceans, and it's just choppy. You just get a bit sick, and I feel like at the moment, a lot of the pastoral friends I have, a lot of people in ministry, there's almost a bit of vertigo. Kind of like, okay, so we want to discover whether it's spiritual formation, or whether it's prayer, or whether it's the sacraments in a new way, whatever it is, early church monasticism, the Desert Fathers, whatever. And yet we are in contexts which are non-denominational or deeply Protestant or have taken on a sort of corporate '90s suburban feel, and I think there's some vertigo there and I think that that's quite a prophetic place to be in the sense that we are doing our best to be faithful to what God is doing now. But also the sort of maybe prophetic archaeology, we're kinda looking back into our history and saying, "How do we unearth and reawaken the ancient paths?" the scripture might say. So I think what I see is a lot of people working in that tension with a lot of humility and a lot of desire and openness, and yet in an environment and a world that is, is chaotic and conflicting at a time when, you know, we don't really have the luxury of sitting in our armchairs drinking coffee in a nice safe world talking about these issues. And for me, and this is probably more the message that I feel in my heart and what I felt God gave me back in 2017 through this time for me personally, has been, I really feel that Jesus is calling the church back to her affection for him. And I think there is something in the language of the groom and the bride, and, you know, John the Baptist called himself a friend of the bridegroom. And it's almost for me we've lost our friend of the bridegroom-ness, I think it's that, that raw longing, that raw desire, that, that focus on Jesus, like, we need him, we want his presence, we want the fullness of him within us. How do we as a community not get lost in trying to fix broken issues but actually get lost in the desire and the glorification of Jesus and our affection for him, and all of those things get caught up into that. So I think for me I see that, that sort of ancient/future thing. I see us wrestling with formation and ecclesiology and even sacraments and all of that. But I still think there's this emerging need for us to go above that again and remember that God loves us, that Jesus loves us. He's married himself to the church, that there is this affection that has been almost corporatised through a focus on function for so long, that I think if we can stir that affection in return, it's almost like we'll be re-energised for the journey ahead.

Vic Francis 27:18

So this is a podcast called For Pastors. It is for pastors primarily. Against that as a background, what is the message for pastors in this whole bride/bridegroom scenario?

Strahan Coleman 27:32

I was talking to a friend about this recently actually, and my take on it was if you're a pastor right now, if you're pastoring a church right now, you're basically like the remnant. Do you know what I mean? Like, you've been through some hard times. It has been a really hard season, and not just hard because of Covid and because of, of, of other things, but hard because our congregations are at high cynicism, high critical level. They, they are, they're burnt out on fallen leadership stories in the news. And honestly, like, we're talking a small percentage of leaders and pastors that are getting all of the oxygen for these, cataclysmic failures. So when I think of pastors in ministry now I just see, see faithfulness. But I think, too, something can happen, and I think this is true in my own life, that sometimes we can turn toward that cynicism, and we can turn toward that resistance in our people, and we can try and work around it or solve it or pander to it. And in doing so, we take our eyes off that sort of burning love for Jesus, not intentionally, just by function. So I think for pastors, you know, at the end of the day, what cuts through, what causes people to desire spiritual formation, what causes people to desire to overcome their cynicism is seeing someone's affection and longing and ache for Jesus. Because when a congregant sees their pastor longing and genuinely aching and pining for Jesus and just being vocal about that, not from a place of authority or, "I've got it. I'm real intimate with Jesus. Follow me," but just from a like, "We need him. I need him," it lights something up in them that says, "What do we gotta do to get there?" And now you're not convincing them to come on a Sunday. You're not convincing them to you know, tithe. You're not convincing them to be engaged in spiritual formation or mission or whatever. They're like thirsty people saying, "How do we eat?" But I think it genuinely starts with leaders, with pastors sharing that desire, too, because it is so obvious when someone doesn't. And so I think in the context of pastors, my encouragement would just be you've been so faithful. And as a brother who is not a leader of a church right now in that sense, in the same pastoral sense, I just really am in awe and honour of people in pastoral ministry right now. It is a hard gig. I just think in terms of this restoring this element, it's like, man, let's just burn together a little bit for Jesus. And I don't mean in like you gotta add this to your agenda or you gotta be something you're not. I really just mean, let's acknowledge that we don't love him enough, together, and then seek to love him better, together, and recognise that it is a priority of his to have an affectionate church as well as a missional and a formative church. And what does it look like for us to explore this as a, as a ministry community? Like how do we do that? And I would just say if you do that, man, people will come with you in ways you probably don't even think they're ready for.

Vic Francis 30:31

Yeah. Maybe even going back to you talking about writing down your prayers and thinking there's no, no way anybody would wanna read the prayers I write or whatever. Maybe it is a case of if we as pastors can rediscover or discover in a whole new way that passion and love, it might well be something that ignites people in the life of faith. Um, do you have a vision of what that could look like? 'Cause we're immediately, I don't know, hemmed in by what we think church is. Church is Sunday morning, and church is me preaching a message, and church is, you know, sort of organisation. What might that be?

Strahan Coleman 31:09

Well, in the practical sense, I think it means we become a praying people again. And by praying people, I mean the kind of prayer that actually delights in and receives the love of God. And in my experience if someone is delightfully drinking God's love in prayer, it's almost no matter what they do, whether it's walking to their car in the parking lot, or having a coffee with someone, or thinking about their material for Sunday, or how to address a relational issue, it just seeps out. It just becomes this supernova inside someone that is so attractive. And so I think in my life, I've tended to think how do I in my own life pray more freely and vulnerably with God that I might become more alive with him, that the things that I'm already doing have a divine power that they didn't have before. And I think that's an important shift for me, and it was an important shift for me to realise it's who Strahan is in Christ that pastors people. I do a lot of pastoral stuff in my work, even though I don't run a Sunday community or whatever. You know, I got a lot of people with addictions and traumas who engage in my prayer schools. I do a lot of one-on-ones with people who are suffering, uh, mental health stuff. And the one thing I've discovered is it's who Strahan is in the moment prayerfully in Christ so much more than anything else that people come to. And that's true of pastors, it's true of churches. They're coming for the wairua. So I think the question for me is how do we practically pray more? And how do we transform our prayer life into not just I'm saying things to God, how do I enter a state of loving reception with God and hold that for as long as possible, as often as possible, until the distance between the reality of God's love and my body shrinks to almost nothing? And I think that's a world-changing practice.

Vic Francis 33:12

I'm sure it is. Staying on the theme of pastors, it seems to me that sustainability's gonna be a really important thing for us in ministry, and I think this is what you're talking about in one sense, because otherwise we're gonna burn out if we don't have this closeness or our ongoing and growing relationship with God. What would you say to a pastor today who's just gung ho and doing great things and has a seemingly limitless amount of faith and energy and optimism looking forward. And alternatively, what would you say to a pastor who's feeling exhausted and spiritually dry? What would you say to each of those pastors?

Strahan Coleman 33:51

Well, I think when I look at myself and my energetic, gung-ho, working at it ways, I would just say to myself, "Don't wait for suffering or exhaustion to be the thing that humbles you." When I think of why we always run to God in suffering, it's 'cause we don't naturally humble ourselves. We don't like being dependent. It's a horrible feeling. We wanna be self-sufficient. But activity does not equal power and it doesn't equal fruit. And the most fruitful things that I've ever done have come out of the most I mean, when I wrote these prayer books, for an example, I reckon most of those weeks I would've worked no more than three or four hours a week of any kind. I couldn't even meet one person for a coffee once a week. I produced these prayer books, and tens of thousands of them have gone almost into every continent and country on the earth. I have no idea how. It wasn't productivity that created this fruit. And so when I look at myself, I kind of say, "Don't, don't wait for the fall before you

Vic Francis 34:48

Don't wait for the fall.

Strahan Coleman 34:49

realise that your productivity isn't as effective as you think it is. But you never know that in that moment, I think. But I would also say the same thing we said before. I don't think our congregations are that attracted to our productivity. I don't think people come along to Sundays, I don't think they join Christian community 'cause they wanna see an increase in functional practical activity in church, I think they come 'cause they ache, they're depressed, they're alone, their marriages are breaking up. They don't know what to do with their jobs after uni. Their flatmates are doing whatever, and they're going, "Someone feed me." And a busy person cannot feed a human soul. Only a praying person can do that. Only God can do that. So maybe that's what I would say to myself in that space.

Vic Francis 35:31

Yep.

Strahan Coleman 35:32

I think in the second space, I think as you described it, was sort of that more...

Vic Francis 35:37

Exhausted, dry, maybe a little discouraged.

Strahan Coleman 35:42

First of all, I would say if that's you and you're listening, kia kaha. God is with you. And to remember that death always precedes life in some form, and Jesus is familiar with it, and so there's a intimacy. There's such a deep intimacy with God that comes through suffering, even though it never feels that in the moment. I've always felt with those moments that it's our opportunity to learn rest and love, and, the most effective, I think fruitful people on earth are those who learn to live in rest and to live in love. And the reason it's so powerfully learned in exhaustion, in weakness, in uncertainty, in fear is because if you learn peace and love in the hardest moments, then you can carry it into any circumstance. Saint Seraphim, this famous Russian saint, said, "Obtain peace and a million souls will be saved around you." I love that. He's kind of saying like, It doesn't need to be a great programme." Peace is so rare that if you can obtain peace in your suffering and exhaustion, you are like really displaying eternity today. And so I would just say don't see what you're going through as a this is not a blip. This is not a diversion. This is the ministry being born, and this is life in Christ being born. And if you see it like that, it's like every day is an opportunity to receive God's love in the hard time, and it's very beautiful.

Vic Francis 37:14

Thank you for that. I think that's powerful and meaningful as well. As we come to a close of this particular segment too, Strahan, have you got another prayer? Have you got another poem that would be applicable?

Strahan Coleman 37:28

Yeah, maybe this one. I guess this is a, a prayer about giving up control of myself and giving up self-shaping. I think we, especially in ministry, we have these sometimes conscious, sometimes subconscious ideas of who we need to be, say, like an on-fire Christian or a authority figure or, I don't know, wherever. We get these images and they're usually a fantasy that we can't obtain. And this prayer was my way of saying, "Let me be shaped. Let me learn to give up control of shaping myself." So it's a little prayer, and then it's got a little blessing at the end of it: God of the potter's wheel, who lays me low and remaps me, working me out of life's clay. Let me feel your hands today as you do your tender work, that I may dwell more in the joy of the good potter's hands than in the turbulence of the wheel. May you see and experience today not the chaotic spinning of the world or of yourself, but the steady hands of God around you, trusting that the greater the pressure on the clay of you, the more definitive the touch of God. You, friend, are safe in the hands of the good potter. Amen.

Vic Francis 39:17

Amen. We'll be right back. Welcome back, Strahan Coleman. And Strahan, one of the things, a little phrase that I've heard you speak about that has attracted my attention is about quiet fire. What do you mean when you say that?

Strahan Coleman 40:05

Quiet fire's become something I've been growing very passionate about this last couple of years. And I guess it's a language that I'm trying to touch on my sense of a church that pursues the love and the presence of God, as we always have, that we have since, day dot, 2000 years ago. But pursues that burning love, that burning life of Christ in a different way than we have the last sort of 30, 40 years. We've become a very loud, concert-style church, especially in the non-denominational world. But even most of our Protestant denominations now are some form of stage, lights, band. And this is a recent development, you know, very recent in the expression of the Spirit's life in the church. And so quiet fire for me is on one hand saying we live in a noisy world, a world in which words and emotions and politics and chaos are very loud. Technology. And we are still trying to produce loud Christianity to compete with it, and it's become, for many people, it's just exhausting them. And so they come into our churches wiped out, just mentally, emotionally, physically fatigued from the world, and we are still in this sort of concert style model of church. So there's that, but there's also this contemplative thing which, you know, my experience of God has been this burning of his presence in silence and in stillness and in gentleness and kindness, you know, the fruit of the Spirit. And I think we've tended to associate the power of the Spirit with, quote unquote, "charismatic cultures". Very loud, authoritarian, usually men, yelling pretty loudly. Very demonstrative. And yet Jesus was meek and lowly. Matthew says, He's not a voice that cries out in the streets, in the marketplace. He would not break a bruised or bent reed. There is gentleness and kindness all through the epistles. So it's almost kind of saying, like, Is it possible to be quiet and still and gentle and yet more fervent than all of the loud charismatic verbosity?" And for me, there's this middle way between what feels like a bit of a neo-contemplative movement in which we are excusing real passion for God and real desire for God by swapping out practices. I'm looking for a road between that, that's kind of almost cynically using the contemplative to get away from some of the presence of God stuff. But also to get away from the loud assumptions that presence of God stuff is demonstrative and verbose. And so I think what the contemplative tradition offers us is that the deeper we go into quietness and the deeper we go into silence and offer ourselves to God, this isn't like a mellowing out in a spiritual sense. This is a deeper burning. And so quiet fire is just language for me to say we can hold both and we can offer both. I mean, I come from a charismatic background. It's not relevant to everyone, but for me it's like, how do I carry my charismatic fervency whilst leaving behind the assumption of charismatic culture? So yeah, quiet fire for me is how do, as a church, we return to charismatic fervency, but in a contemplative shape. In a noisy world, how do we become an oasis of peace and stillness? And what if the greatest mission we have to the world in the next 50 years is that we are a rare pocket of calm, beautiful, gentle power that is counter-cultural and that speaks of eternity.

Vic Francis 44:01

I think that's a great picture, and I love the almost complementary and yet contradictory aspect of quiet and fire. I can't help but be taken back to my early Christian days and bold tongues was the big deal in those days, Strahan. I feel like I've probably come quite a long way and that I identify with what you're saying. And I'm glad I don't speak in bold tongues anymore, but hopefully the fire hasn't gone, 'cause there is a worry, you know, sort of if you go too inwards, you're gonna lose the fire along the way. But I think what you're painting is, is absolutely true, that you don't lose the fire. It's actually there's a whole new level of connection with God that God is wanting to explore. I'm wondering for you, as someone who has explored that quite deeply, what are some of the practices that have most helped you cultivate, I guess, being with God or, or developing that quiet fire?

Strahan Coleman 44:55

Well, nothing has spiritually formed me more, or no practice has had a deeper influence on this for me, than suffering. We don't naturally list it amongst the spiritual practices, but it should be. I think suffering will form you faster and more powerfully if you give yourself to it than almost... I mean, this is essentially what fasting and things is, you know? It's wilful suffering. But learning to completely envelop suffering into my communion with God. 'Cause what suffering does, it silences you. You are powerless. You have no control. You have no certainty of the future. You have no ability to relieve the pain that you feel from within yourself, and it silences you. It stills you. If you accept that God is God, and you are just a human being it pushes you into quiet. It just stills your voice. It stops you up. And in that moment, it's as if when you finally accept and embrace it. Not celebrate it, I'm not saying that. But if you accept it and embrace it, it's as if there is a flame that is born within you that I think no one can touch. Because it is now born in darkness and death where no one can go there. Mm. So I think that the practice of saying, "Thank you, God, for my suffering. Help me to see you here," and to sit feeling my pain, to sit acknowledging my pain, and setting my heart on Jesus has been the most profound quiet fire feeding practice. But, you know, I wake up every morning and I set my alarm early, every morning being when I'm well. I set my alarm early before my children get up. I hold a coffee, I take a few deep breaths, and I open my being up to God. I imagine sinking down into my gut, and I just open, and I say, "God, I love you. I wanna fix my eyes on you." And I sit there 30 minutes, an hour, two hours, as long as I can. Agendaless, wordless. If I'm blessed and my brain isn't on some kind of ADHD hardwire bender, it's image-less. And I try to spend exorbitant amount of time saying nothing to God, but doing my best to gaze nakedly upon His love. And in my opinion, however that looks for each of us, and it will always look different, it could be while you're walking, it could be at night, it could be in little minutes during the day. Is to say, "What if I dedicated my life to silently adoring God in the hidden parts of my soul?" And all that does is stoke it and like a fire that just cannot be contained. And I've been doing this stuff for years. I am now more passionate about being active in the world, about loving the church, preaching, discipling people, running the food bank, you know, meeting people on the street. More passionate from doing this than I was in my charismatic days where I was speaking in tongues for hours on end. So from the other side, I can guarantee you this will form quiet fire, but only if it is Jesus you seek. If it is anything else, you won't be lit. But Jesus will light our soul when we give him time and we just let him be for us.

Vic Francis 48:06

Strahan, you are a young man. You probably don't feel like you are, but compared with me at least, you are. What are your hopes and expectations and prayers for a younger generation of the church and a younger generation of pastors coming through?

Strahan Coleman 48:25

My big dream, my big hope is that this younger generation will be obsessed with Christ, that they will care far less about themselves and about how things look, and far more about understanding and beholding and enjoying the beauty and the magnitude of the cosmic Christ. The transfigured Jesus, the crucified Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, the incarnate baby Jesus, the Word that was before. The desire to set the heart upon the personal knowledge and experience of Jesus, and the simplicity of letting that shine. And it sounds so silly and obvious, but I've been knocking around church jobs and ministry and church staff and whatever for 20 years. Mm. And in my experience, what I'm describing is incredibly rare. It is very rare to sit with pastors and leaders who are still aching and longing for the person of Jesus, and I would love to see a generation coming through that restore our, my affection for Jesus, that I look at and go, "Man, I wanna burn." I wanna have that kind of quiet fire. I wanna love him like they love him with that monastic friend of the bridegroom kind of love too. Along with all the practical, like I'm not a detached mystic. I'm not suggesting that we're all floating away. And I see that. I see that in a lot of younger people are a lot more no-frills than my generation was, you know? And they're not seeking Jesus for all the fanciful stuff that I was in the '90s. We all just wanted to fall over and shake and bake and this generation doesn't seem to care for that. They just want the real thing, and I think that brings me deep hope and deep joy. Yeah.

Vic Francis 50:06

Some quick fire questions as we come towards a close. What's, what's one thing you wish someone had told you, Strahan, when you were 25?

Strahan Coleman 50:15

I wish someone had come up and said, and I actually am pretty sure people did say this, "Strahan, I know you think you're really important and effective, but all the fruit of your life's gonna come from Jesus. Stop trying so hard."

Vic Francis 50:28

What spiritual practice has surprised you the most?

Strahan Coleman 50:33

All the stuff around quiet fire and contemplation and gazing upon God, I would've called heresy only about 15 years ago. So I think my, the spiritual practice of silent prayer has been the most surprising.

Vic Francis 50:46

What book would you put in every pastor's hands?

Strahan Coleman 50:52

Thomas à Kempis, The Imitation of Christ. I've read that book probably five or six times. It was actually Dan Sheed, whom I love deeply, who introduced me to that book. I wasn't ready for it at the time. But yeah, I read that, like, at least twice a year. Rocks my world. Every pastor should have to reckon with the absolute magnitude that is The Imitation of Christ.

Vic Francis 51:12

Wow. So, hasn't, hasn't anything been written in recent times that we could read? I love it that you go back that far.

Strahan Coleman 51:19

Yeah. Well, that probably says a lot about me. What, what is recent? I don't know. Yeah, that's a great question.

Vic Francis 51:24

No, it's not a great question. I love your answer. I'm poking the bear.

Strahan Coleman 51:26

I read old books, Vic. It's a problem of mine. I get in trouble for it.

Vic Francis 51:30

Isn't it brilliant that is a book going back 500 years that we're looking at as being such a great strength. Yeah. What is one thing, Strahan, that God is teaching you right now?

Strahan Coleman 51:41

This is gonna sound really ridiculous after so much of what I've said, but I feel like right now God is teaching me about the importance of prayer. And it probably comes from I'm in a crazy busy time in my life. I've, uh, I got three sons. We- we're busy with the family, but also my work life is really full and, you know, I don't get paid a salary, so with the living costs I'm, I'm working way more than I ever have, and yet my body's tired. And I was just reading Acts again this week, as I often return to, and see the apostles, who must have been the busiest I mean, they're literally founding the church, kept their morning, midday, evening prayer rhythms and scripture. And I felt like Jesus just reteaching me in this season saying, "You're gonna have to figure out how in the busyness of all this stuff is to functionally return to me in all of that chaos in a way that I haven't before." So still learning.

Vic Francis 52:37

Finally, as I ask all of the guests on For Pastors, so what gives you hope?

Strahan Coleman 52:45

Oh man, it's actually hard for me not to cry talking about this. I genuinely draw the deepest hope from the fact that one day I will be fully healed and fully one with God in eternity, and there will be no breath or moment where I don't feel fully, consciously enwrapped in his eternal love. And that makes sense of all of the gap in between that I feel in my life, the longing of my heart, sometimes the loneliness of being a human, and the suffering of my body. The hope that in eternity my children will see me as I really am, not as my body tells them I am, and that I will be able to love God with total abandon in a way that I feel I just ache to now and can't, and that's my hope.

Vic Francis 53:44

Yeah. Strahan, you're allowed to, you're allowed to cry with that. That's a powerful thing. I wonder if you'd pray for us. Again, I ask all of our guests to do so, and it is a pastors' podcast, so maybe particularly for our pastors who, as we've been talking about are heroes and, you know, on this podcast we, we talk about championing pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world, and I think we recognise all of those things. Uh, could you pray for us?

Strahan Coleman 54:17

It would be an honour. Yeah, let's pray. Jesus, as a community of people who serve and love you, we set our hearts and minds on you. We just take a breath right now to say that you are beautiful in your crucifixion. You are beautiful in your resurrection. You are beautiful in your rule and reign from heaven. We thank you for the gift of your presence. Jesus, you've given us your Holy Spirit to live and abide in us. My prayer for all those listening is that right now as we pray, they would feel the heat of your love in the very depth of their being. That the fire of your desire for them and for their world would be born in a profoundly new way. Would you draw their eyes, their hearts, their affections, their fears and anxieties to your beauty, to your face, Jesus. For all of us that just long to love you with so much more, we would just ask you to help us love you. For those struggling to receive your love, would you pour out your love now? Would you comfort us? God, I pray for the power of quiet fire to fill us as a generation, to bring hope to pastors, to renew their strength and their faithfulness. Would you give them greater grace and joy and love. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Vic Francis 56:26

Amen. Well, I wanna thank you, Strahan, for being my guest today. It's been an absolute privilege. Thank you for your journey, an often painful journey, I know, and yet an honest one and a, a vulnerable one. For reflecting something of my journey, too. And in fact, all of our journeys, and helping us make sense of them. For going deep, for being formed, and for passing that on so that others may benefit. For being a prophetic, poetic, worshipful voice to the church in Aotearoa and beyond. And so we champion you, too, and your holy calling in this uncertain world. God bless you. It's been a pleasure.

Strahan Coleman 57:14

Thanks so much.

Vic Francis 57:38

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more about us in the podcast notes, along with a link to Strahan's Commoners Communion website. While you're at it, how about liking or rating this podcast and passing it on to a pastor you know who may benefit? Meanwhile, I'm back in a fortnight with something different again, an interview with John and Nancy Ortberg, prominent authors, speakers and pastors who will be the keynote speakers at next month's Abide Conference in Auckland. I hope you'll join me to meet the Ortbergs and to hear their perceptive thoughts on the church and pastoral ministry in the current age. Bless you.