A Conversation with John and Nancy Ortberg

Welcome to For Pastors, a podcast which "champions pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world".

Today Vic Francis sits down with John and Nancy Ortberg — keynote speakers at next month’s Abide conference in Auckland and two voices who have spent decades at the intersection of faith, leadership and marriage.

John Ortberg is a pastor, speaker, author and one of the most influential voices in Christian spiritual formation over the past three decades. He is best known for helping ordinary Christians connect deep theological truths with everyday life in a way that is both practical and accessible.

Nancy Ortberg is a respected leadership consultant, teacher, speaker and former church executive with extensive experience in both ministry and organisational leadership.

Together, they bring wisdom forged through ministry, seasons of change and a deep commitment to joy. This is a conversation you won't want to miss.

You can connect with John's daily teaching at the Become New website, and get your discount tickets to hear the Ortbergs at the Abide conference in August at the Abide website, keyword FORPASTORS.

Welcome, then, to For Pastors, A Conversation With John and Nancy Ortberg.

Transcript

Vic Francis 0:00

Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and welcome to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. Today we sit down with John and Nancy Ortberg, keynote speakers at next month's Abide Conference in Auckland, and two voices who have spent decades at the intersection of faith, leadership and marriage. John Ortberg is a pastor, speaker, author and one of the most influential voices in Christian spiritual formation over the last three decades. He is best known for helping ordinary Christians connect deep theological truths with everyday life in a way that is both practical and accessible. Nancy Ortberg is a respected leadership consultant, teacher, speaker and former church executive with extensive experience in both ministry and organisational leadership. Together, they bring wisdom formed through ministry, seasons of change and a deep commitment to joy. This is a conversation you won't want to miss. Welcome to For Pastors, A Conversation with John and Nancy Ortberg. John and Nancy Ortberg, welcome to the For Pastors podcast.

Nancy Ortberg 1:44

Thanks for having us.

John Ortberg 1:44

Nice to join you remotely.

Vic Francis 1:46

It is so good to have you here. Nancy, I know you've been to New Zealand before, but John, this is your first visit. As you're planning to come down in August what's exciting you most about coming to New Zealand?

John Ortberg 1:58

I've been looking forward to it because Nancy went there quite a few years ago, and she has bragged a lot about going to New Zealand. Getting to see it firsthand, getting to meet with pastors, getting to find out what the church is like. We both enjoy travel a lot and first-time experiences a lot. All of that sounds terrific to me.

Vic Francis 2:14

Nancy, you'll be John's tour guide, I guess?

Nancy Ortberg 2:16

I'm excited to come back. I was just so taken with the deep passion for the, in the church that I saw in Auckland so many years ago.

Vic Francis 2:26

Well, that's fantastic, and uh, trust that you'll see something of the same. We wanna spend the first part of this podcast meeting you a little. You have spent four or five decades building both a marriage and a ministry together. What sustained you through all of the different seasons that you all have been through in life?

John Ortberg 2:47

I think a gift for the two of us in our relationship with each other and for both of us individually with all of the ups and downs and problems and sin and failures and everything else is we both like joy a lot. I think about that line from the Book of Nehemiah, "The joy of the Lord is your strength." And I think in our relationship when we have especially had to face difficult times the fact that we enjoy being together a lot is a good thing. And I think for sustaining over time just simply seeking to learn to wake up, this is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it. To seek to find the goodness of life and be grateful for it, and grateful for a sense of calling and learn how to rely on God in the moment. But that's a big question. That's a big question.

Vic Francis 3:36

Such a big question, isn't it? How about you, Nancy?

Nancy Ortberg 3:38

I would say, it took us a while to understand this, but we would stop every six months or so and realise we might be in a different season than we've been in, and what used to work may not be working. So to re-evaluate all different kinds of things, the kids, our work, our relationship, the home, all of that, just to rearrange it or to say we can keep things in place. But most often, things would need to be changed every so often as we entered different seasons.

John Ortberg 4:05

It's a moving target.

Nancy Ortberg 4:06

Yes, it's a moving target.

Vic Francis 4:08

Indeed. What sort of season do you think you're in now, Nancy? And maybe what's God teaching you in this season?

Nancy Ortberg 4:14

Maybe a pre-retirement. I ran an organisation up in the Bay area for 10 years called Transforming the Bay with Christ, where we focused on the 11 counties and 256 cities in the Bay area, and had a unity movement of churches. And now I work for them one third time since we moved to Santa Barbara. So I'm not really ready to quit working altogether, but trying to figure out then what the core of my life is when I'm not raising kids anymore and I'm not working full time anymore. Really in that journey of trying to figure out what holds everything in my life together.

Vic Francis 4:45

And so that would be sort of a continuation of the reassessment of figuring out where I am at the moment, the background, the things that God's been doing and saying.

Nancy Ortberg 4:54

And I haven't figured it out yet.

Vic Francis 4:56

Well that's encouraging for the rest of us that are in the process, I'm sure, of figuring it out as well. How about for you, John? Don't wanna assume you're in the same season, but what season of life do you feel like you're in?

Nancy Ortberg 5:05

You're working full time still.

Vic Francis 5:06

Wow, you're still going hard.

John Ortberg 5:08

My plate is pretty full, and I think part of the journey for us has been learning how to create space and allow the other person to be on their own journey in their own life and support them but not be overly connected or enmeshed. I am no longer pastoring at a local church. I'll turn 70 next year, but I'm doing a kind of an online teaching ministry where I teach pretty much every day for 10 or 12 minutes about spiritual growth, and then doing writing, and then travelling and doing speaking. And so I no longer have the infrastructure of a local church. I've got a little team, but I don't have the same staff relationships and place to go. But I get to learn and reflect and figure out how to communicate, and I love doing that.

Nancy Ortberg 5:54

I think in a lot of ways you're in your sweet spot more than you've been your whole life.

John Ortberg 5:59

Think so.

Vic Francis 5:59

Isn't that great? It's an accumulation, is it, John, of all of the things that you've learned and grown and knowing and being secure in yourself?

John Ortberg 6:08

Yeah, I think so. And also finding out what are the stuff that I don't do well and being to hand off and outsource that so that at this point in life as I'm doing things, I'm able to do things that feel like they're more central to my own kind of calling and gifts and wounds.

Vic Francis 6:23

John, you speak often about your relationship with and being mentored by Dallas Willard. Would you tell us a little bit about that? And, and I'm thinking how important is it for all of us to have mentor figures in our lives?

John Ortberg 6:37

Yes. For folks who are listening and may not know, Dallas Willard passed away about 13 years ago, and he was a philosopher. He taught philosophy at the University of Southern California and was a remarkable thinker. He's probably best known in the States generally for his writings about Christian spiritual formation and theology, even though he was a philosopher. And I had read his book Spirit of the Disciplines about 35 years ago and was just astounded by its wisdom. The thesis of the book he writes is that authentic transformation really is possible if we're willing to do one thing, and that's to arrange our lives around the rhythms and practice that Jesus engaged in to be constantly at home with and receiving power from His Heavenly Father. When I read that sentence, I thought, "Somebody's thought real deeply about this stuff." And I wrote him a letter, and he invited me over to his home. It turns out he just lived 10 miles away from us back in those days. And

audiojohn21406618703 7:34

uh,

John Ortberg 7:35

what was amazing was he's the smartest guy I ever knew, but his heart was way better than his mind, and he just lived in the presence of God like nobody that I had known. And, yes, to have somebody like that where, I never worked with him, we never lived together, so I never was in a place where there was that kind of daily or very regular contact with him. On the other hand, because his teachings and writings are so available in books and online I am constantly listening to him. When I would wake up last night listening to a talk that he was doing about how to live like Jesus. So he is present with me very deeply in really significant ways. And, for sure, I would say to anybody who's listening to us, if you don't have folks like that to pray and ask God, "Could you bring somebody into my life that I could learn from and talk to?" And then look for people who write or speak that can speak to you.

Vic Francis 8:31

Yes. So we, what are we looking for? We're looking for, I don't know, an older person who's been that way before, or is it a particular wisdom or someone who will call us forward?

John Ortberg 8:41

Yeah, I think in a personal relationship, somebody where I'm around them enough that they can see my life and give me feedback firsthand, and um, that's hugely important. And for whatever reason, I've just had a number of folks play that role in my life from pretty early on. And I'm very grateful for that, and both of us have shared some mentors like Max De Pree where it's just a matter of being intentional and asking, "Could we have an occasional conversation for wisdom?" And then also, I think, in addition to personal relationships, it's helpful to find one or two or three authors or writers from maybe across the centuries where they know more than I do about God, and they're able to help create my mind and faith and turn the lights on.

Vic Francis 9:32

Yeah, I love that idea. It's not just restricted to people who are in your postcode or who you have access to.

Nancy Ortberg 9:37

Yeah, and maybe not lifelong. I think there's seasons for different mentors. If you go up to somebody you want to have that kind of relationships and say, "Could we meet twice a month for the rest of our lives?" They're probably not going to say yes. So maybe start with a cup of coffee and make an ask of a couple of months, and then just see how it plays out or how much you need it. And there will be different mentors for different seasons.

Vic Francis 10:02

I think that's very helpful. Um, Nancy, I suspect that John Ortberg may well be something of a mentor through his books for some people. You've observed him and seen him close at hand as he's written and spoken um, to countless audiences. What do you think is his most important message?

Nancy Ortberg 10:22

Oh, I think it's very much that spiritual change is possible. And I think probably one of the best places he speaks is in audiences where there's that intersection of spiritual formation and leadership. How do you not disconnect those two, but how are those two integrally related? And then also for people that aren't in leadership, just the belief that following Jesus can cause us to change.

Vic Francis 10:47

Yeah. John, Nancy's pretty substantial in her own right with her writings and even what she shared today about some of the work that she's done. What are the things about Nancy that blows your mind?

John Ortberg 10:59

Nancy's just a force of life. She has never had an unexpressed thought or opinion. You never have to wonder what she's thinking or feeling, so she's very direct. Her impact on people will be quite remarkable. We went to a party on Saturday, and watching her talk with one person who has addiction issues, and that talk went really deep, and then somebody else with a very serious health diagnosis, and that talk went really deep, and then somebody that's got a family issue where they were expressing a desire for something, and Nancy just held her face in her hands and "No, no, no, no, no. You don't want that, you want this." And her ability to have fun, laugh, communicate a deep sense of support, a lot of aliveness so you never know what comment is gonna come next, and a willingness to challenge but where you know it's out of a goodness of heart. So conversations always have the potential of plunging into some place that you do not anticipate that could change your life and are gonna be an adventure like a movie. I will just admire enormously her gifts to be a force of God, life, nature, reality in people's lives and learn from that, and people love it. Pretty much any place I go, the first question I get is, "Where's Nancy? Is Nancy here? Is Nancy coming?" I get real tired of hearing about that. So partly I'm looking forward to going to New Zealand 'cause most people don't know Nancy, they're not asking, "Where's Nancy?"

Nancy Ortberg 12:22

Fair enough.

Vic Francis 12:23

By the end of the Abide conference there may be a queue for Nancy though by then. But they will have got to know her.

John Ortberg 12:29

Yep, that's exactly right.

Vic Francis 12:31

They'll start with John and they'll end with Nancy. Yeah. This is a podcast for pastors, and while not all pastors are couples, not all married of course, but many are. And I wonder, looking back over decades of marriage and ministry, what have you learned about staying connected to one another while also staying faithful to your calling? And you have had individual and combined callings, so it'd be great to hear from both of you. Nancy, maybe we'll go for you.

Nancy Ortberg 12:58

John alluded to this a few minutes ago, but I think one of the most important things is to not only know your spouse, but be a student of them your whole life long. And to let them grieve, celebrate, study, follow their work the way they're wired to do that, and not to feel like, "Oh, no, you need to do it the way I do it." And to not just allow that to happen, but to really find joy in that, to be grateful that John thinks in a different way than I do, and what does that mean to me? Sometimes it will irritate me, of course, but a lot of times I will be so grateful for it for very deep reasons. So I think being a student of the other is really important, and celebrating the differences.

Vic Francis 13:40

I love that. How about you, John?

John Ortberg 13:43

You know, for me personally, one of the most

audiojohn21406618703 13:46

important

John Ortberg 13:47

issues and dynamics to work through was to become secure enough in myself that I can recognise and celebrate the gifts in Nancy. And I say when we first got married, my self-awareness was very low, and I had a need to see myself as this very confident, effective leader. And, uh, many decades later now, I would say my understanding of my gifts and limitations, such as they are would be more around communicating, trying to learn and speak about that, much less, uh, leadership. People have great gifts of leadership um, building teams, developing people, articulating vision, intercepting entropy. Those kind of organisational leadership gifts are just not nearly as much a part of my life as I thought that they were. And it took me probably 15 years of doing ministry to recognise that, to come to grips with it. And then not only was that the case, I'm married to somebody with remarkable gifts of leadership. And not only that, but I'm a man and she's a woman, and so it's like, now, that's kind of not the way it's supposed to be, or runs kind of counter to the way that gender stereotypes at least where we live tend to run. So initially, it was quite painful to me uh, to even see that begin to emerge when I was able to. And then eventually, it got to the place where uh, I could let go of that and say, "Here's who my best understanding is that God made me to be, and that enables me to do certain things, so I'm grateful for that. And I don't have to be that. I can let go of it." But it took a couple of years and lots of therapy and spiritual counsel and pain to be able to let go of it. And then eventually when I could, there was great freedom on the other side.

audiojohn21406618703 15:33

And,

John Ortberg 15:33

uh, now it just produces a lot of joy, and it's just simply uh, that issue is one that has no weight or pain for me at all. But that was very definitely a journey where being married and both involved in ministry was a big part of it.

Vic Francis 15:50

Yeah, and I guess that comes into some of the seasons that you're talking about as you grow and understand yourselves, as you grow and understand each other and, and the way that God's those doing things.

Nancy Ortberg 15:58

At our age, I think we look back and just are amazed at how little we knew and how little we understood Mm-hmm Both what was ahead in life, both who we were, who the other person was, and what the collision of that was going to be. I did a sermon years ago on marriage, and one of the analogies I used is the bride and the groom are all dressed up at the altar, and they're both, unbeknownst to them, holding a piece of baggage. And they didn't pack it themselves, not much. They might have thrown a few things in there, but somebody else packed a lot of that. And then it's got those locks on it where you have to roll the numbers, and you have the combination.

Vic Francis 16:37

Yeah.

Nancy Ortberg 16:38

And so you are going to spend the entirety of your life figuring out how to, first of all, realising you have it, and then trying to figure out how to open it, and then shutting it quick because you don't like what's in it. And all the years of, "Oh, okay, I'll show you my suitcase if you show me yours," that's a lifelong journey.

Vic Francis 16:57

Yeah, it really is. Taking you into a slightly more personal and relating to God part of your journey, as we go towards a break, just wanna sort of ask both of you what keeps your heart soft? And, maybe if it connects, what sort of spiritual practices have become non-negotiable for you? That ministry can be pretty rough and tough, can't it? But um, but keeping a soft heart. Oh, it is in New Zealand. It's, It's probably not in States.

Nancy Ortberg 17:28

Okay, good to know. Good to know.

John Ortberg 17:30

Yeah, one of the big differences. Here it's a piece of cake. Every day is better than the day before.

Vic Francis 17:35

I'm gonna give the question to you first, Nancy, seeing you're taking me on. How do you keep your heart, how do you keep your heart soft and what are the practices that help along the way?

Nancy Ortberg 17:46

Yeah. I love the word practice. Um, I think for me, an awful lot of it is nature is hugely compelling to me for connecting with God. The transcendence of it, the reminder of whoever created this beauty has to be good. The way it makes me feel inside connected to God and released from pressures for a while, that's huge for me. And I also think relationships. I think sitting down over a cup of coffee or a lunch with somebody and having a very deep in-depth conversation. You know, there's that great passage in Genesis, "To love another person is to see the face of God." Both of those are practices that don't get talked about in your typical genre, little book about what practices are you using, that are incredibly meaningful and kind of life-altering for me.

Vic Francis 18:37

So helpful. Thank you. John, how about you?

John Ortberg 18:40

Well, it it sure feels like, I have long, long ways to go to become the kind of person, have the kind of mind that thinks the kind of thoughts that I want to. I don't feel at all like I have discovered the magic way. But I would say, kind of building on what Nancy was saying about relationships over the last several years, one practice that's become real important is I have a good friend, Rick Blackman, we went to Fuller Seminary together many, many years ago. And I decided quite a few years ago that I'd like to have somebody where I have no secrets with them, where, uh, he would be a fully disclosing friend. And so we began to practise that, and then that's led to a practice where I actually call Rick every morning at 6.50am, and we'll talk about how did yesterday go? What did I get right, what do I need to work on? What am I facing today? Pray for each other. Um, that's just a daily

Nancy Ortberg 19:34

Just 10 minutes.

John Ortberg 19:34

Yep, yep, a thing that we do. A lot of times I'll start to do something and then quit 'cause I don't like it, it doesn't work. But this one done for years. Yeah. And it's intrinsically motivating. It's just like I look forward to that time. If I miss it 'cause I'm gone for a while, I'll feel its absence in my life. So that's a, it's kind of like brushing your teeth, where it's a good thing to do.

Vic Francis 19:53

That is an incredible thing. I haven't heard something like that before. And it's you with Rick and Rick with you? It's a mutual thing?

John Ortberg 20:00

Yeah, it is a mutual thing. You know, sometimes people will disclose to a therapist or a clergy person or something like that.

Nancy Ortberg 20:06

And you've done all that.

John Ortberg 20:07

Yes, and I've done those things as well. But in this case with Rick, it's the two of us as friends doing it together. We both know each other and know each other's character and have been friends for many decades, so the trust level is very deep.

Vic Francis 20:19

I think that's a great point and a great point for us to take a break. And when we return, I'll be asking Nancy and John about their observations of the church in 2026. So we'll be right back. Before we go back to the Ortberg interview, I want to welcome Matt Lilly, the Director of the Centre for Church Leadership at Laidlaw College. And Matt, you are organising the Abide conference that John and Nancy Ortberg are going to be speaking at in August. Could you tell us a little bit about Abide and who is it for?

Matt Lilly 21:47

Sure can, and thanks for, uh, having me on. How good is listening to John Ortberg, uh, we're just delighted to have him coming out along with his wife, Nancy, who is quite something in her own right. John's the well-known author and speaker, but Nancy's incredible, um, what she brings in terms of her wisdom around leadership in organisations and, uh, doing that faithfully as followers of Jesus. Looking forward to that. And as well, we've got, um, Strahan Coleman is gonna one our keynotes as well. So, uh, the Abide Conference is, it's relatively unique in the New Zealand setting because it is cross-denominational, it is a conference for everyone. We're really wanting to just curate as a space where people can come and not just learn, but to really uh, have the opportunity to encounter the, the presence and the Spirit of God as we're there. So we're gonna learn together, have times of worshipping together and prayer together, making space for us to actually abide in Christ. The gentle thread kind of woven through the, the conference is formation. It's about really just becoming more available to God, not about becoming better at what we do.

Vic Francis 22:54

And people through the podcast here will have got to know John and Nancy a little bit, and Strahan, of course, uh, was the last guest that we featured on the podcast as well. Uh, what is your offer? Do you have an offer for our For Pastors listeners? What can you give us, Matt?

Matt Lilly 23:09

Yeah, we'll look after the For Pastors listeners.

Vic Francis 23:11

Thank you.

Matt Lilly 23:12

From now till the end of July, we are wanting to offer the Abide conference tickets to anyone, uh, at the super early bird price, which is long gone, which is 40% off the current price. So that's a great deal there. And also for anyone that does get those tickets before the end of July, we are going to put them all in a draw and two of them are gonna get their money back. So basically a free ticket. We, we love the For Pastors podcast, and the way to do that is that you go onto the Abide website. I'm sure if you Google Abide conference, you'll be able to find that there. And there's a little box that says "code", and the code that you would put in there would be FORPASTORS. That's F-O-R pastors, and that will get you going.

Vic Francis 23:56

That sounds great. We will put the link to the conference in the show notes as well. So, uh, you go there up until this Friday the 31st. Everybody gets the super early bird and two lucky people will get their ticket for free. That sounds fantastic. More generally, Matt the dates, where's it happening? What do people need to do to find out more?

Matt Lilly 24:16

So again, very easy if you Google the website, but just for the sake of those listening, it's August the 25th to the 27th, and it's at Grace City Church, that's very handily off the motorway there in Greenlane. And as I say, we are looking forward to being together.

Vic Francis 24:33

Matt Lilly, thank you very much for joining us.

Matt Lilly 24:37

Thank you.

Vic Francis 24:38

Nancy, John, welcome back to the For Pastors podcast. Now, you have had a front row seat to the church for many decades really. What encourages you most right now and maybe what concerns you most? John, maybe we'll start with you.

John Ortberg 24:52

I I think on the encouraging side, there's just so many young church leaders, and I know we'll be talking to some right now, whose heart for God and heart for the church and willingness to devote themselves to it and commit themselves to it is so high. It's wonderful to see that. I think there is an emerging clarity around uh, the nature of the gospel and the connection of the gospel to discipleship. And folks like Tom Wright, we were talking about Dallas Willard, have helped us to see really clearly that the gospel that Jesus preached is the gospel of the availability of the Kingdom of God right here, right now, and that, uh, death can't stop it. It's a gift of grace. You know, we have an afterlife with God to look forward to. But it is larger than that. It's not just then and there, it's a call that naturally leads into discipleship. And I think there is a hunger for discipleship. What is the way of life to be a disciple? I think when I was growing up, people were pretty clear on what it meant to be a Christian, but disciple was kind of a vague word. And I think increasingly there's been interest in and a desire to pursue a way of life, sometimes people talk about a rule of life or a discipleship, I think that's a growing movement, and I'm very grateful for that. That's quite encouraging to me.

Vic Francis 26:13

And what would be your concerns as you look at the church in 2026?

John Ortberg 26:18

Well, for sure in the States there has been a general decline uh, church attendance, church membership. There's a fellow here, Ryan Burge, who is a social scientist. He has a newsletter on Substack. He's the best guy by far that I know who is reliable when it comes to statistics. Folks in the church world, particularly you know, evangelical for better and for worse, tend to use statistics to raise alarm and sell sermons and books. Ryan is very reliable in his understanding of that sort of thing, and those long-term trends of secularisation here in the US have been going on now for, you know, 20 or 30 years. That may be plateauing a bit. There's a few indicators that way, but they're early indicators. It's not real sure. And you know, the church has had to face all kinds of problems for 2000 years, so I know God's not worried about it. But where we live, and in the West generally, in Western Europe as well, the condition of the church and rising number of folks who would say "none of the above" when it comes to a faith commitment, that would be at the top of the list. Probably right underneath that or maybe connected to it to me in the US would be the extent to which the church is often co-opted by politics. It used to be in the mainline church that the church would be kind of co-opted by the political left here, and then increasingly the evangelical church, and that phrase has become problematic, it's being co-opted by far right politics. What tends to happen then is people feel like, "well, if I don't have that particular view, Jesus is not a, an option for me. And it's harder to get a hearing for Jesus 'cause folks increasingly think the church is a thinly veneered political organisation.

Vic Francis 28:14

I think we see a little bit of that from New Zealand and a little bit of that in New Zealand as well. So Nancy, how about you? Sort of what encourages you? What concerns you?

Nancy Ortberg 28:23

Just thinking about what John was just saying cause I so agree with the nationalism thing, this is from a book called Kingdom Over Empire, "The Church in America is gaining political ground and losing missional credibility." What encourages me is for churches that have missional credibility, I just think there's so much hope there. It's it's so interesting that Jesus talks more about serving the poor than prayer and what it means to be born again put together. But most of our churches focus on that, and we let 11 people serve the poor. And I think churches and communities that are taking that very seriously are really attractive to people. I think people are proud to go to churches like that and be a part of it. I think one of the things I've seen up in the Bay area when I've worked with churches, especially coming out of Covid and the huge divide that happened and people leaving churches and the split politically, is a lot of pastors were beating themselves up for, "I'm not sure I've discipled my people well." And I think there's enough truth in there that we wanted to sit with that question. I also think people keep hidden what they want to keep hidden until a crisis comes and it comes out. So there's both of those going on. I do think taking discipleship seriously and that component of serving the marginalised and the poor, not to make that an afterthought, but that should be a robust centre to our discipleship.

Vic Francis 29:42

I'm wondering if Jesus was to write a letter to the church today, what he might include. What do you think, Nancy?

Nancy Ortberg 29:48

He may just, uh, give chapter and verse out of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John about serving the poor and say, "Please read those again and go do them." I certainly think that would be a part of it. And again, just like John said, I'm not sure Jesus is terribly surprised. You know, people say, "We want an Acts 2 church," and I say, "Have you read Acts 3?" it's not that. It's not this perfect thing. But I think there would be very much a concern with politics and religion and that confluence.

Vic Francis 30:15

How about you, John, what would Jesus write?

John Ortberg 30:17

I think to the church, and especially as we're thinking about pastors and leaders of the church, in eras in a society where the church is real dominant or it's growing or so um, pastors can have a lot of status. In the United States 100 years ago preachers' sermons were very often printed in the newspaper. Yeah. They were you know, among the most educated people in town. They were respected. It was a high-status occupation. Lots of folks with lots of gifts said they wanted to become pastors. America has this kind of odd who's who, you know, list for people of impact, and it used to be that a very high percentage of those folks were clergy or were the children of clergy, usually the sons of clergy, they were usually men. Now that's just decreasingly the case. And so I think part of what Jesus would say to churches is to devote yourself to the flourishing of the Church as a noble thing. It's still good. That is well worth giving your life to, and that can easily get lost. It used to be propped up by society much more than it is now, and now it's not, and somebody needs to blow that trumpet. I think that'd be Jesus.

Nancy Ortberg 31:22

I think one other thing he might say is, "If there's a season of revival or dormancy, just be chronically faithful to me." I get very tired of the revival word, and it's like people are looking on the horizon, scanning for any seed of evidence for it. It's like, first of all, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. You don't have to be looking for it every second. And second of all, what if, like the 400 years of intertestamental period, we're called to just a time where not much is going on?

Vic Francis 31:51

Yeah.

Nancy Ortberg 31:52

It's all the Kingdom. All of that's the Kingdom.

Vic Francis 31:54

That's a long time, isn't it? And yes, we assume that something's gonna happen today or tomorrow. I'm thinking about, you mentioned before younger people and younger Christians. John, what do you think younger Christians are searching for, or even people who aren't in church are searching for that the church is uniquely positioned to offer? We still have something to offer, don't we?

John Ortberg 32:18

One of

audiojohn21406618703 32:18

the, um,

John Ortberg 32:19

dynamics that gets written about a lot right now is just isolation and loneliness. And, you know, to some extent um, that's the human condition. We are born alone. We die alone. There is an aloneness to life. But um, the number of people who have best friends, particularly with men, an enormous decrease of people who would say uh, "I have four good friends." And an increase in depression and anxiety that I think is very much related to the loss of community. And it's a weird thing with community. Community's a bit like happiness, you know, you can't be happy if your main goal is to be happy. It's kind of a byproduct of something else. And with community, when people are lonely, it's very difficult to pull people together just for the sake of pulling people together. Crisis will do that. you know, it will tend to bridge barriers, rich and poor, different ethnicities. But when the crisis fades that sense of community tends to fade along with it. And the church, because it has a vision of the reality of God and the goodness of loving God, and then I do think when the Spirit moves in powerful ways, one of the things that tends to happen historically, happened at Pentecost, and it's the breaking down of barriers. And so if you look at, like, the early church in Antioch, it is a uh, ethnically diverse group of people who are leading in the church. And when people get the vision of being called by God, wanting to make a difference for God, wanting to love God, wanting to follow Jesus, uh, it has a way of pulling people together and being very inclusive, being kind of a magnet, drawing people in. So I think for young people, they're desperate for community. The church at its best just offers it like nobody else does.

Vic Francis 33:56

Yeah, absolutely so. Nancy, as we come towards a break again, as you look back over decades of ministry, where have you seen God's faithfulness most clearly? What are the things that sustain you, maybe even in those barren years that you're talking about?

Nancy Ortberg 34:14

Boy, that's a good question. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I don't. When I do, it's often things like the arc of history, like this is not the whole story. I remember being in hermeneutics class in seminary and, back in the days of chalkboards, and if you don't know what that is, you can Google it. Not you, but everybody else listening. And every day we'd come in, the professor would extend the timeline of the church history. And one day going in, I don't remember what we were talking about, but it dawned on me, oh my goodness, my little vein of Christianity and my understanding of what's real in America in this time is gonna be a little "x" on that line. It's not the whole picture. And initially, that can frustrate me, and eventually it makes me very relaxed and very comfortable.

Vic Francis 35:03

I love that. How about you, John? What have you seen of God's faithfulness that sustains you?

John Ortberg 35:08

I mean, I come back to something Nancy said at the beginning, just creation. Yes. know, I think there's a reason why Jesus would talk about that so often. He's, "Look at the birds", you know, "look at the flowers of the field." I think part of why nature creation moves us so much is, it is a daily tangible concrete expression in a billion ways. Life's going on. The sun's coming up again, and that's not an accident. God's doing that. And I think, we have a good friend, who we were involved with in ministry for many years, worked at a church, name's Rex. Just a wonderful guy, and he just passed away of pancreatic cancer recently. That was very painful. We went to his memorial service, and one of the songs that was sung, the chorus, is, uh, "All my life you have been faithful. All my life you have been so, so good." And that song meant a lot to Rex even when he had cancer. And I don't fully understand it with all the ups and downs and pain and questions that I have that I don't know the answers to. There's something about saying those words, "All my life you have been faithful." That's just true. That names something.

Nancy Ortberg 36:16

You resonate with it deep inside.

John Ortberg 36:18

Y- Yeah, And I think lots of people do because it names something that we

audiojohn21406618703 36:22

can't

John Ortberg 36:23

necessarily articulate or give 17 reasons for, but it's like a tuning fork going off.

Nancy Ortberg 36:30

Another way I can believe in God's faithfulness is when somebody like Rex or in my life or whoever, when life is abysmally hard. There's still points of goodness. How can that be? That should blow our mind. That even when he was so, so sick, we would have a meal together and he would say something wonderful about the food or a story about our kids growing up together. And it's like how can good penetrate this awful situation? It must be stronger than the bad stuff.

Vic Francis 36:59

Good is stronger than the bad stuff. Thank you both, John and Nancy, for your deep thinking and understanding of the church and of God, the highs and lows and the life that we're on. When we come back, we'll talk a little more about your visit to New Zealand and a subject that is close to your heart um, formation. So we will be right back. Welcome back, John and Nancy Ortberg. What is most on your hearts as you prepare to come to New Zealand? Uh, give it to both of you. Who wants to start?

Nancy Ortberg 38:02

Ever since I was a little girl, I would spend hours reading, but one of the topics I would read a lot about was the whole Polynesian, uh, Pacific islands and the exploration that happened there, and the the navigation by stars, and just the history of your country is pretty fascinating. I'm just excited to be a part of it, and to, again, I hope, watch the church as it flourishes in a place that is remote, at least to us, and really honestly what we can learn from you guys. But I'm excited to see how the church is doing and what the state of the heart of the leaders is.

Vic Francis 38:38

Lovely. John, how about you?

John Ortberg 38:40

The same thing that Nancy said about what can we learn. I love to learn. It's about the most motivating thing in the world for me, so being there and just being able to learn history, what's going on in the church, what's the state of the church, what are pastors there seeing. But then for me, what I love to talk about most is uh, how can the church be the steward of the gospel of Jesus, that message of life in the kingdom, and how can it help people enter into it? So to be able to talk about that and think about that with pastors and church leaders there in a way that hopefully can translate to churches stewarding and disciples being formed, that would be a great gift.

Vic Francis 39:18

Yeah, John, obviously there'll be a lot of leaders at the Abide Conference. But a lot of people who will be listening here won't be at the conference for various reasons. If you had a message to give to our New Zealand pastors and leaders, what would it be?

John Ortberg 39:32

So actually it would be a message that is written on that little plaque over the door of my office, you can see it.

Vic Francis 39:38

see it, but yeah, quote it. and

John Ortberg 39:41

It came from many years ago when I was visiting Dallas Willard and asked him, "What do I need to do to help my church people grow spiritually and be formed well?" And there was a long pause, as there was always with Dallas, and then he said, "You must arrange your life so that you're experiencing deep contentment, joy and confidence in your everyday life with God." And then I said, "No, no, no, I'm not asking about me, I'm asking about them. I wanna know how can they grow spiritually?" He said, "I know what you're asking."

Nancy Ortberg 40:10

And here's my answer.

John Ortberg 40:11

But the reality is that we always reproduce ourselves uh, when we're involved in life, in in ministry, in church work. If there's incongruence between what I say I believe and the way that I live, people always know it's the way that I live that proclaims my deepest beliefs, and that's what tends to be contagious. So he said, "You must arrange your life." The temptation is always to think, when results are better, when things are going well, when people like my sermons.

Nancy Ortberg 40:42

When my life settles down so that I can arrange my life the way I want it to.

John Ortberg 40:45

That's exactly right. When I'm not so busy, when I don't have opposition, when the charts are up and to the right, whatever it is always, always, always the great temptation is to think someday then. And Dallas said, no. no, Your board won't do this for you. Your spouse won't do this for you. Your congregation will not do this for you. This must happen. This is your only life. You can only minister out of that life. You must arrange your life. You must arrange your life so that you are experiencing deep contentment, joy and confidence in your everyday life with God. And then uh, I have something to share and something to give. And without that, I'm not trying to do ministry, I'm trying to use ministry to fill up something inside me that it's not supposed to fill.

Vic Francis 41:33

Thank you, Dallas Willard, via John Ortberg. Nancy, do you have a script above your office?

Nancy Ortberg 41:39

I don't get an office because this is his. I have my books in a little closet and I work on the dining room table. But I would not add to that at all.

Vic Francis 41:51

You agree, eh? You would take that.

Nancy Ortberg 41:53

I definitely agree.

Vic Francis 41:54

If you think about spiritual formation, which is an important topic both in your work both of you but also in the Christian arena of the moment, what about pastors and being formed? How would you encourage us to go deeper with God, John?

John Ortberg 42:12

Well, one place to start, Dallas used to talk often about it, change in any sphere of life always involves a little acronym, VIM, V-I-M, vision, intention and then means or method. So learning a language uh, learning how to play the piano, getting your financial life in shape, always vision elicits unforced desire. I want that. I gotta have that uh, pearl of great price, treasure buried in a field. And then intention, making a decision, uh, commits me, and then method or means, practices, relationships, experiences. And, uh, very often in the church we tend to hammer away

audiojohn21406618703 42:50

at,

John Ortberg 42:51

uh, intention.

audiojohn21406618703 42:52

You gotta be more committed, be

John Ortberg 42:53

more committed, be more committed. And increasingly people are looking at method, practices,

audiojohn21406618703 42:58

you know,

John Ortberg 42:58

uh, whatever that looks like, servanthood, quiet time, fasting, Sabbath. But often the vision is unclear for people. The vision that matters here is who would I be if I was living in the kingdom of God? If Christ were actually being formed in me, and I was becoming a person of genuine love, and joy, and peace so I didn't have to please people anymore, and my performance was not determining my worth, and I wasn't walking around with low-grade chronic resentment of other people, and I didn't envy other pastors who churches were bigger or... what is my vision for who I would be, what my life would be like in the kingdom of God that actually makes me want it? a- And I think that piece is often missing. That's why Jesus so often would say, "You have heard it said, but I say to you." He's trying to clarify again, if anybody ever really gets the beauty of life in the kingdom, they want it more than they want anything else, and they will cut a hole through the ceiling to get at that. So I would invite people just to even write down on a single sheet of paper, and then keep doing it until it makes your heart sing. What's your vision for your life in the kingdom?

Nancy Ortberg 44:13

And I think underneath all of that, when you're a pastor, you have expectations placed on you. You have the weight of the kind of work that you do. When you're going about the work that John's talking about, you have to do it from the perspective of I'm a child of God, not I'm a

audiojohn21406618703 44:29

pastor. Mm-hmm.

Nancy Ortberg 44:30

You have to dig back down deep to the core of who you are as a son or a daughter of

Vic Francis 44:34

Thank you. Thank you for that. Nancy, earlier in our conversation, you were talking about seasons and different stages of life and I guess that's relates to marriage and relates to ministry and relates to our relationship with God. I'm wondering, what have you discovered about following Jesus in latter times, say in your 60s, that you may not or couldn't have learned back in your 30s?

Nancy Ortberg 44:56

So a couple of weeks ago, the organisation that I work with gathered the leaders of our networks. So these are the leaders of networks of churches that probably uh, entail about 1000 churches in the Bay area, and we spend three nights with them. And we had an evening session at the end, or maybe it was morning, called The Sage on the Stage, and John was one of them, and there were two female pastors and three men, and uh, they were talking about this very question. And except for one of the leaders, all of them in some way voiced the surprise that the older we get in our faith, we don't get new junk. We just get invited by God into a deeper exploration and work with the sins we have because of the way we're wired. I may get frustrated when I am impatient again. I thought, "I thought I was working on that. I thought I had Well, ha- you have been working on it, and there's so... n- there's a universe of work to be done on that. I'm not gonna get new junk. I would like some new but I'm not gonna

Vic Francis 45:57

There's a universe of work.

Nancy Ortberg 46:00

Yeah. There's a universe of understanding, complexity and work. And there's a universe in every human being.

Vic Francis 46:04

Yeah. Yeah. How about you, John? You may have been one of the ones who were saying that on the stage.

John Ortberg 46:10

I noticed when I stopped doing local pastoring, reading through Paul, he has kind of a reputation as being kind of a argumentative, maybe even cranky guy, but when you look at his letters, he's always saying stuff, you know, writing the church at Philippi, "You're my joy and my crown," or when he leaves the church at Ephesus he's in tears. And it raised for me the question of, as I worked at churches, was I serving the church or was I kind of using it to be successful? Churches need leaders that have drive and, you know, are willing to navigate change and challenge the status quo and be effective, and that's all needed, but to actually love the people who are there.

Nancy Ortberg 46:50

That's really good

John Ortberg 46:50

I was really struck by the need for that and not being sure how well I have done at it.

Vic Francis 46:55

Thank you. A final question for each of you. It's a question that I ask everybody who's a guest on the podcast. It's about hope. But after everything that you've experienced, the joys, and we've talked about the disappointments, we've talked a little bit about changes in culture, changes in the church, what gives you hope today, Nancy? We'll start with you and then go to you, John.

Nancy Ortberg 47:19

I think it's not unlike what we've talked about in just the arc of the church over time. It has gone through very difficult

audiojohn21406618703 47:26

seasons.

Nancy Ortberg 47:27

And it has always stayed intact. And then I think the nature of God, who God is, that's what gives me hope, that every time I worry about something in myself or outside myself, I think, "Well, that's really not the main point, is it?" The main point is my faith is in a good God, not in circumstances or myself.

Vic Francis 47:46

Thank you. John?

John Ortberg 47:50

I think it would be finding in times of pain where I feel like I don't know what to do, or this is broken and I can't fix it, that there is a foundation underneath that that I did not know was there, and that there is a spiritual reality that, um, when circumstances cannot be okay, cannot be fixed uh, and I can't stand on my circumstances, there is another reality that I can stand on, and it is God. And that's where, honestly, it sounds like a little bit of a weak read, but it's not. It's like when Jesus said to his disciples, "You know, everybody else is leaving me. Are you gonna leave me, too?" And Peter said, "Where else would we go?"

Vic Francis 48:28

Yeah.

John Ortberg 48:29

And it's not a ringing affirmation. No. But, it's deeply honest. And when I think about, okay, is there another way to lead life? Dallas used to say when folks would ask him, "You mean to tell me you're a follower of Jesus, and you teach philosophy?" He would say, "Who else did you have in mind?" There's nobody else.

Vic Francis 48:46

Yeah. Finally I wonder, and again, it's a custom that we have on the show is I ask our guests to pray for our pastors. Usually it's New Zealand pastors praying for New Zealand pastors 'cause they're normally the guests. But I wonder if I could ask you both from a long way away in the States, but obviously coming and being with us in August, and we're looking forward to having you, if you would pray for not only New Zealand pastors, but pastors in general. It would be a great privilege I'm sure if you would.

John Ortberg 49:14

I, I would love to. When you mentioned that, I thought, I want to try to look up a prayer that Dallas used to pray for pastors.

Vic Francis 49:20

Okay. Let's go.

John Ortberg 49:20

He would teach a class, DMin Doctor of Ministry, and at the end would pray this prayer. So I would love to pray this. And it was almost always the case with Dallas, there would be a phrase or a word that flowed out of his life and thought that nobody else would think of, and I find that with this prayer also. So you can see if it comes to you. My prayer for you, that you would have a rich life of joy and power, abundant in supernatural results, with a constant clear vision of never-ending life in God's world before you, and of the everlasting significance of your work day by day, a radiant life and death.

Vic Francis 50:19

That's beautiful.

Nancy Ortberg 50:20

And he had a radiant death?

John Ortberg 50:22

When he uh, passed away, they had that prayer printed on a little bookmark and gave it out to folks. And I had heard lots of people pray for a radiant life. Until Dallas, I don't remember anybody praying that people would have a radiant death.

Vic Francis 50:39

Yeah, I was listening to the prayer hoping I'd catch the right line, and that was certainly the line that grabbed me at the end, and so thank you so much.

Nancy Ortberg 50:48

Thanks for having us.

Vic Francis 50:49

Thank you for coming on the For Pastors podcast and for being part of the church in New Zealand. Both by your contribution from overseas by your writings and stuff that you've got online but also by coming in person. We're looking forward to having you, so thank you. Dallas Willard wrote in his book Renovation of the Heart, he said, "We don't believe something by merely saying we believe it, or even when we believe that we believe it. We believe something when we act as if it were true." And so thank you, John and Nancy, for acting as if it were true in your books, your teachings, your leadership, for saying yes to coming to New Zealand and passing on some of what is true. For being examples in your own right and inspiring the pastors of today and the leaders of today and tomorrow. For loving the church and for your passion to see its people grow in discipleship and closeness to Jesus and so we champion you too and your holy callings in this uncertain world. So God bless you. It's been a pleasure.

Nancy Ortberg 51:53

Thank you. We'll see you soon.

John Ortberg 51:54

Thank you. Yeah, no, this is very helpful. It just helps make the trip concrete and vivid and we anticipate it. So thanks for having us on.

Vic Francis 52:01

We will see you soon. God bless you.

52:24

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast.. You can find more about us in the podcast notes, along with a link to the Abide Conference and to John Ortberg's daily teaching programme called Become New. While you're at it, how about liking or rating this podcast and passing it on to a pastor you know who may benefit? Meanwhile, I'm back in a fortnight with something different again, talking with three guests who are passionate about not only building their churches, but building the whole church in their cities. I hope you'll join me for our Heart for a City episode. God bless you.