For Pastors
Vic Francis combines his background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world.
For Pastors aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives.
For Pastors
Heart for a City
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Welcome to For Pastors, a podcast which "champions pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world".
In this episode, we go beyond the intensity of the joys and challenges of local church ministry and lift our eyes to explore the possibilities of churches working together on behalf of the "capital C" Church and of the towns and cities in which they're ministering.
We hope you'll enjoy For Pastors, Heart for a City.
Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and welcome to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership, and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. Let's face it, as pastors, church life can become all-consuming. Working with the joys and challenges of our own congregation week by week doesn't give us a lot of time to think much bigger. Today, though, we're lifting our heads a bit and imagining what it might be like to have a heart not only for our own church but for all churches and the communities that we live in, working together for the flourishing of our town or city. Welcome to For Pastors: Heart for a City. My guests today are Amy and Andrew Dishroon, lead pastors of Engage Church in Napier, and Ben Mai, manager of Auckland Church Network. Welcome to all of you to the Heart for a City episode of For Pastors. And I wanna start today by finding out a little bit about you, and I'm going to begin with you, Amy and Andrew in Napier. Tell us a little bit about yourself, if you would. What makes you tick?
Andrew DishroonYeah. Thank you. What a privilege to be here. A little bit about myself. Obviously, my name's Andrew, and I'm married to my lovely wife, Amy, and we have two daughters, Lily and Pippa, who are 16 and 14. And we've been in the Hawkes Bay now for oh, five years or so, and co-leading Engage Church together, and Amy's gonna talk a little bit more about that.
Amy DishroonHi, Vic, and everybody else listening. It's so lovely to be here. Yeah, Andrew and I, we work as co-leaders of Engage Church in Napier here. And we have been working at the same desk across from each other for over a decade, and we just love it. I know that's sickly for so many people, but we love working together. And we just, we love the Lord's church. We're both raised in families where our parents were the first to be at church and the last to leave. So we, yeah, have such a deep love for church, and people really. And I have another love which is, um, aside from my gorgeous children of course, uh, I have 20 David Austin roses in my garden and they keep me busy and I just love them. I love the stages and the seasons and watching the roses bloom and then cutting them back and, yeah, something therapeutic about it.
Andrew DishroonAnd I I love seeing people come to Jesus. I love salvations. I love just being part of the bigger picture and the bigger, wider church and I just am passionate about God's church. And also I love playing golf. I can't play basketball anymore. I'm getting a bit too old for that, so now I'm out on the golf course. So all you pastors out there, you wanna play golf, hit me up. I'd love to play.
Vic FrancisThere you go. You can make an appointment, uh, with Andrew next time you come to Napier. Ben, you're in Auckland. Tell us who you are and what you do.
Ben MaiHey, so good to be with you, Vic, and likewise, Andrew and Amy. So my name's Ben Mai, and I work for a movement we established about four or five years ago that's called Auckland Church Network, and it's really all about mobilising the church to work together for the spiritual and social flourishing of the city. And so when I say church there, I'm meaning like "capital C" Church, so Christians, local churches, Christian not-for-profits, Christian businesspeople working together for the shalom of our city. Personally, I live in the Auckland suburb of Mangere Bridge. I'm married to the beautiful Aimee, and we have the delight of parenting twins, a boy and a girl, who turn four tomorrow actually, so looking forward to a big day tomorrow. And yeah we love investing into our local community in Mangere Bridge. And invariably, we receive much more blessing in return really as well. What makes me tick? I mean, Andrew, I might have to come down to Napier you can take me out on the golf course. It's been a little while. I love my golf, but it's been a while since I got out there. Yeah, enjoy being active. I enjoy running and hiking in the bush things like that as well, but also just love that sense of like community feel around local church, obviously expanding that to the city as well. And obviously the church is full of people, so yeah, try to do my best to love people and certainly return, receive a lot more in return.
Vic FrancisWell, I wanna welcome all three of you onto the podcast. Ben, who I know quite well from my time in pastoring in Auckland. Uh, Amy and Andrew, who I've only met because of, uh, the opportunity of doing the podcast together. It's lovely to have you here. I'm calling this episode of the podcast Heart for a City, and my motivation in inviting you all on is my hunch that doing it alone, uh, like, uh, each church in its own silo, hasn't really worked all of that well. Um, that together we're surely greater than the sum of our individual parts, and that it's more honouring to God when we do it together anyway. And so Ben, maybe we'll start with you. When you hear the phrase "heart for a city", what does that bring to your mind?
Ben MaiGreat question, Vic. Yeah, heart for a city.
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Ben MaiI think when I combine it with church, to be honest, it's part of who the church is designed to be. I think part of the calling of a local church is to develop a heart for its city. And so obviously when I think heart, when I hear heart, I think emotion, I think compassion. Jesus wept over the city of Jerusalem. He wept over other communities too, and so that's, I think, part of it as well. And one other aspect that comes to mind is the late American pastor Timothy Keller. And he has a quote, he says, "God loves cities because they are filled with his image-bearers." And so I think having a heart for a city means rejoicing in its beauty, in its diversity, in its potential, in its people. I think it also means our weeping over its injustices, its poverty, its systemic issues, and also over its people as well. And, I think a great question to stop and ask and ponder on and reflect on is this: Do I love my city? Do I love my city? And I think loving my city, similar to loving a person, means rejoicing in the good moments. It's being proud of who your city is, its background, its achievements. And, again, on the flip side, it's feeling the pain of the tough moments, the heartbreaking tragedies that occur, the devastating natural disasters, the obvious lack of Jesus in people's hearts and actions as well. But this question of, do I love my city, is I think a great one to reflect on and kinda dwell on as well. When I say city, that could be a town. It could be Huntly or Geraldine. You might wanna think of that as your city. You could be in a medium-sized city like Napier, where Andrew and Amy are, or Nelson or Palmerston North, that's your city. Or I guess you could be in a larger city, Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch. And so you might be thinking of your part of the city, for example the North Shore or Lower Hutt or something like that. So I guess I'm defining that as geographically it's the local mission field of your church.
Vic FrancisYeah, I think we can take that as read, can't we? It's something bigger than yourself, bigger than your own church, bigger than your own local community. I'm sort of wondering, you know, as pastors, if we can make that step from saying, "Well, how is my church going? How did it go on Sunday? What am I hoping for this Sunday?" And start asking questions, something like, "How is God's church going in my city?" What changes when we make that leap, do you think, Ben?
Ben MaiYeah. Yeah. Because obviously all right, 95, 99% of the time as pastors we're probably asking or at least thinking along the lines of the first question, how is my church going? And that's very understandable. So I think a real challenge to this is that, as a pastor, that's essentially your job description, how is my church going? That's essentially where you're accountable to your governance team, to your leadership or eldership team. And so that's kind of the default question. But when you shift focus from your local church to God's church in your city, I think potentially your entire ministry perspective transforms from internal competition to kingdom collaboration. And I think that's quite a powerful shift. And so in some ways it really breaks down denominational walls and in some ways expand your mission from building an organisation to transforming a region. And I think that comes with some beautiful kinda aspects or certainly real potential to it. I think there's a real potential to move from kind of a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset. So you think of, yeah, just things like celebrating kingdom wins. And I guess when I think of that, I think the growth of other gospel-preaching churches is you celebrate that as a victory rather than a threat to your attendance numbers. You start to think about sharing local resources. You begin to freely share venues or volunteers or funding to tackle large citywide problems together. You can eliminate duplication of ministry, I guess. You know, congregations can stop launching competing programmes, and perhaps instead think about going into existing or successful community initiatives. And so, yeah, I think these would be some of the things that come to mind when we change that question. It's quite a mindset change, Vic, quite a mindset change. But I think the potential there is, is huge.
Vic FrancisIt feels like a biblical concept as well, Ben. How would you sort of link it scripturally?
Ben MaiI think there's probably two perhaps main aspects to that. There's a city aspect, and there's a unity aspect as well. And so I think if we look at a biblical basis for pastors thinking about the city, there's so many aspects where God's word shows us that He loves cities. The Bible starts in a garden and it finishes in a city, the heavenly city. And I think another key verse there is in Jeremiah chapter 29. So this is a famous stanza where the Israelites are captive in Babylon, and God instructs them to seek the welfare of the city that they are placed in. To seek its shalom, to seek its spiritual and social flourishing. And He says, or He tells the Israelites, to pray for the city, for if it prospers you too shall prosper. So I think there's a strong kind of city aspect that comes throughout the narrative of scripture. And then similarly, or the second thing I'll mention, is that unity aspect as well. And so again, if we look at a biblical basis for pastors thinking beyond their own congregation and partnering with other pastors and other congregations, a key passage really is in John chapter 17. And this is Jesus' famous prayer the night before He was crucified. You know, of all of the things He could have prayed for one of the key ones is that He prays for the unity of believers. That they may be one just as the Father and I are one. And I love that it comes with a "so that", just after that. In, verse 21 it says "So that the world may know that you sent me and that I love them just as you have loved me." So it's like our unity actually is a witness towards God and towards the love of God's Son, Jesus for each of us as one. I think there's something beautiful and precious about that as well.
Vic FrancisI wanna go over to Amy and Andrew, because you're in Napier, you're pastoring a church, and we're gonna hear more of the story of, uh, what's happened in Napier which has been rather wonderful over time. But Amy, maybe if we think a little bit about what we might lose when we're a church that just focuses on its own patch, what, what do we miss when we get too inward-looking?
Amy DishroonOh, my first response is friendship. We lose friendship with each other, which at the end of the day, we're one big family of God in Christ, and there's so many wonderful people in churches all around our regions, um, to grow in those friendships. And I think also as churches, when you have this, oh, dare I say, um, inward self-absorbed focus, it can be a breeding ground for pride, and you can start thinking that "Nobody does this as well as us," or, or, "Nobody cares as much." And it can grow an over-inflated sense of, of who you are as a church. Whereas when you're around other churches, you're connected with other pastors, you grow a love for them and for their church and their people. And in that also, it overflows towards your whole city as well of people, to the point where you want every church to be full, and you want every church to be thriving. Because at the end of the day, there are so many other churches doing things better than we are, and, and not every church is gonna fit every person, so we need all the different pastors, and we need all the different people. So being connected with each other I think is so, so beneficial. You get collaboration, you get appreciation, you get to see the different diverse sides and parts of God reflected throughout the body, and you get togetherness.
Vic FrancisAmy, your relationship with other pastors, how fruitful and how rich have you found that over time?
Amy DishroonOh, it's the best. I love it. I think relationally it's the only room that I get to sit in that everybody else in the room truly understands what we're doing, what we're going through. They understand the challenges of pastoring and people, and they also understand the wonderful wins and celebration moments as well. I sat in a meeting last year, uh, we gather monthly as pastors, and it's just such a blessing. And I sat in the meeting last year, and we were going through something difficult, and it was our first time of facing this type of difficult, for us as leaders. And we'd started with a scripture and kind of opened it up, and as I began sharing, I felt really teary and the tears did just start to fall down my face. And this group of maybe 15, 20 pastors around paused, and we prayed. And when they prayed, which was so beautiful, it ministered to me so much, but I just remember so clearly one of the pastors who'd been pastoring for decades now, and I really, really look up to them, and they just said, "I've faced this three times in my pastoring journey." And then he went on, and he prayed for me, and he prayed over me, and this protection of love and care. And when I heard that, it was like, ah, okay, he's walked through this, and he survived. He's walked through it and, and he's grown, and he stayed. And maybe if other people can walk through it, we can walk through it, too. And that's just so beneficial to, particularly when you're young and pastoring and you're learning things and, you know. But we can also learn from those who are fresh, and when they walk in the room, and they have this beautiful sense of naivety of pastoring as well where they're just excited about everything and want to, you know, save the world and do all the things. It's good for us as well 'cause it gets us pumped up and and zealous. And we also have in our region in the Hawkes Bay, our youth pastors gather regularly as well, which is so cool, and they come together in the room, and they're getting excited, and they're carrying this bigger picture for the city, too. And it's been so beautiful to watch our youth pastors, Ollie and Juliana, grow in their love for not just the youth that they're leading but the youth across the city as well, and their relationships with other youth pastors, too. So I think the verse in 1 Thessalonians 2 verse 8, I just love so much, but it talks about people saying, "We loved you so much that we share with you not only the gospel but with you our lives as well." And that's the gift of journeying with other pastors is that you get to share lives together.
Vic FrancisThat's such a great story. Andrew I'm, I'm sort of thinking about that competition thing that sometimes can creep in. Why do you think that competition or, say, even comparison, does creep into our ministry? If we talk about it theoretically, we say, "Oh, of course it shouldn't," but in fact it is there sometimes, isn't it?
Andrew DishroonYeah, I think pressure to succeed is something that we all face as pastors. It's very easy to get caught up in the dream. I think we all have vision. I think we all have a desire to see our churches and our ministries grow. We wanna see more people come to the kingdom and we want healthy bank balances. We want buildings to move forward in its look and in its design and in its spaces and I don't think any of those things are wrong. I think sometimes we just put them in the wrong order. And so I think pressure to succeed is something that we put on ourselves. I think also at the end of the day, we're all human and we have insecurities and ego has something to play in that. And even we also like to preserve dignity, and what I mean by that is it's a lot easier to say that your ministry is thriving than it is to talk about it struggling. And I think the citywide meeting together is important because you actually get in the room, and you understand each other's hearts, and you hear the vulnerability, and you recognise that actually they're just my brother and they're my sister. And I think sometimes also theological differences, maybe not so much with competition, but with comparison, as sometimes just the different styles or the difference of flavours. Just being different can create a bit of a comparison in the opposite way. And so I think that may mean that we're not willing to sit in the same room as another denomination or another movement or another leader and we compare ourselves to them, thinking, "Oh, okay my church is thriving and your church is not," or, "That must be because of..." And I think when we actually get over ourselves and humble ourselves and submit ourselves to Christ, and I think Ben, you said it so well in, in John 17 and Jesus is talking about being one with the Father, and that then his wish for us, his prayer for us, is that we would be one like that with each other. It's like covenant language. It's marriage language. It's oneness language. And that can only happen at heart level. And so I'm even thinking with my wife, I'm not in competition with her and I don't compare myself with her. I can't afford to. Instead I need to be connected to her.
Vic FrancisAnd what does it feel like sort of deep down when you celebrate someone else's success in ministry and not just your own, where somehow you find the capacity to go beyond just yourself?
Andrew DishroonYeah. That's really good. I was reminded recently of Ryan Fox. Obviously I talked about golf before, and he won the British golf tournament, and he's the world player of the year. And he did all the work, he did all the practice. It was him and his caddy that, that did everything. And yet it felt like a win for New Zealand. And when I think of another church or another ministry thriving, it's actually a win for the kingdom. And their win is ultimately our win. Every time a person gets saved, every time a person gets baptised, every time someone moves a step closer to Jesus, and it doesn't have to be in my church, and it doesn't have to be in our ministry, it's another blow for the enemy in our city. And so it's really important that we celebrate each other's successes and not just our own, because what we're trying to do is move the kingdom forward in our city. And so if that means that another church is thriving, we're gonna celebrate that. We're gonna get on board with that. We're gonna pray for them. And obviously everything we talk about today, our words are gonna get tested. And so hopefully we can humble ourselves enough and always celebrate even when you feel those feelings. 'Cause as humans, we are gonna feel those feelings. But we submit them and go, "Look, I'm not gonna operate out of the flesh. I'm gonna operate out of the spirit."
Vic FrancisBen, um, Andrew touches on this as a subject, but what do you think pastors miss when they're standing so close or too close to their own church to be able to see a bigger picture for a city or some wider concept?
Ben MaiYeah. First thing to say for every pastor listening I'm pretty sure it'll be true that when they think of their own church, there's too much to do and not enough time to do it. So there's always this tension of like, you know, your own church just needs so much, and there's so much that can be poured out and is being poured out. In all of our roles, I guess there's always blind spots, eh? And I think in these cases the blind spots can limit the ultimate impact of a local church. So I think from a community perspective, if a pastor's too focused on their own church, they can miss out on, changing demographics in the city. Our cities are changing. They're changing fast, ethnically, economically, generationally and I guess there's a risk there that the outreach methods of a church become outdated. I think along those lines there's potential to miss actual local hurt, community pain points, hidden poverty, rising divorce rates, youth loneliness. They can easily stay invisible behind attendance numbers on a Sunday. And of course there can be unreached kind of pockets of culture and so on. Entire neighbourhoods or subcultures in a city who don't fit into the church's existing demographic just get overlooked and missed in the bigger picture as well. So I think there's some aspects there around community. I guess perhaps a couple of other things as well. I think that a pastor can so easily just carry the heavy weight of trying to provide every ministry programme alone instead of looking to partner with nearby churches and work out a better, more coordinated strategic system there. And I think I guess just thinking around the kind of the broader move of God as well is that pastors can miss out celebrating and learning from, you know, unique revivals or trends or breakthroughs that are happening in other neighbouring churches or in other neighbouring denominations as well. But yeah, I think there's a lot of bigger context that we can learn when as a pastor we perhaps start thinking ourselves not just as a pastor of our church but as a pastor of our city. And, what does that look like when we start thinking in those frames?
Vic FrancisWell, it's a, a challenging and thought-provoking subject, and I think, uh, it's a good point for us to take a break. When we return, we're going to hear the story of the Napier floods and the way that the church rallied around the community in a time of trauma and of really great need. Uh, Amy and Andrew were a big part of that, so we will be right back Welcome back to the For Pastors podcast and an episode we're calling Heart For a City. Now Andrew, take us back to the Hawkes Bay floods in 2023. What happened back then?
Andrew DishroonYeah. So, obviously it was a pretty major natural disaster for us in this region. But on the day, where we live in Napier, we woke up and the sun was shining. The cyclone had moved through the night and um, and didn't think much of it. Amy and I thought, "Oh, we better go check the church," because where our church is located has been flooded before. And we jumped in the car and it's about a seven-minute drive and we head there, and you can see that there's been some trees that have fallen here or there, but nothing to suggest that the scale of the damage was what it was. And then we get an alert that the river had burst its banks and flooding is starting to take place and you need to evacuate and then the cellphone reception drops out, and, before you know it, you look up in the sky and there's helicopters everywhere and and you think, "Oh, what's going on?" And people are starting to already talk, and so people that know people, word gets around. Obviously the communications are down, but word gets around pretty quickly that Eskdale has been very badly flooded, that people are being rescued on top of roofs. And then you quickly find out that the land between Napier and Hastings called Pākōwhai, that's been severely flooded as well, and people are being rescued off roofs. And so all of a sudden you're thrust into this moment and I must admit I was thinking a little bit of, of myself, ourselves as a family, as a dad and as a provider. I thought, "Okay we need to make sure that we've got food. We need to make sure that we've got everything we need." And I wasn't very wise and we had very little petrol. So there, there was a few things that I was like a little bit worried and concerned about, but then Amy, my lovely wife, was like "We've gotta do something, and and we gotta help." And that's where you jump in.
Vic FrancisSo Amy, you came to the rescue. Tell us what happened next?
Amy DishroonI had just read a book off my father-in-law's bookshelf, and it was called Understanding Leadership by Tom Marshall. It was written in the early '90s, and he talked all about having foresight and being an anticipator of things to come as a leader, like always being a few steps ahead. And so I had this in my mind, and I was like, "We have to be a few steps ahead." We have an amazing church full of wonderful people who literally will jump in to help if they're led and had opportunity. So I was like, "We have to be a few steps ahead." So at that point, we were like, "All right. Let's do something." So we just started checking on people and heading into really disaster relief, which wasn't something that we'd learned. We'd only been pastoring a few months at that point but it was pretty amazing though because as soon as we had connection with other people, Pastor Bruce Collingwood, so he led the Napier ministers network at that time and has only recently passed it on to us, which is such a privilege. But he gathered us together very quickly as pastors. And so we all got in a room. We sat together. We hadn't had power for almost a week. None of us had showered because the water was very low and there was concern there. And so you're just sitting in the room, raw human. And when you are in crisis mode you very quickly put aside your style or flavour or denominations or sizes of churches, and all of a sudden you're just like the family of God, and let's work together. And we did do that. So we just started identifying who was gonna do what as a city, and a beautiful organisation called Convoy of Hope, they came and sat with us, and they just made us feel like we could do it. They really empowered and spiritual leaders in the church in our city. And so it was incredible. So, like Equippers Church, they became like an evacuation centre. They were housing people. Um, Vineyard looked into, like how could they short-term and long-term house people? We, our church, Engage, became a distribution centre, so we were gathering supplies from all around the country. Salvation Army was feeding people. And all these other churches I could list off were doing things. And so what we started doing as churches is we would just send whoever had those giftings or resources to that church. So we were sending people to go and help with the feeding and we were bringing other people from other churches and helping us dig silt and help clear properties and things like that. We just shared everything. We shared money and people and tools, and it was amazing.
Vic FrancisIt sounds an incredible thing. Did it take place over days, or did it take place over weeks and even months.
Andrew DishroonYeah, the first couple days initially was sorting your own church out, you gotta make sure checking on your flock. There was a few people that we were concerned about. We knew of a family in our church, a couple who lived in a motor home in Eskdale. And so straight away we were just like, "Okay, what's happening with them?" And then found out that they were okay. They did lose everything, but they were okay. And then we found out some other people needed rescuing. As you found out more and more the scale of it people were being helicoptered out. So once we kinda knew that everyone in our sort of immediate church were okay, and that took us a couple days. But at the same time we even got on the first day reports of a rest home that had been evacuated, and they got evacuated into a school hall. And so we went to the hall and we
Amy DishroonWe went to the supermarket first
Andrew DishroonWe actually went to the supermarket first, and we bought water, bottles of water and food and supplies. And the supermarket had a generator, and so it was there that then you could try and get news reports with Wi-Fi and stuff like that. And so everyone's packing out the supermarket. It was like what the end of the world would feel like. it was the closest thing to a war zone or that kind of feel. People were starting to fight over petrol and things like that. It was an interesting time. Um, but in that time we get to this rest home, and you walk in, and that is probably when it really hit us that wow, people need help, and we wanna be part. It's, It's our job as the church to help people. And so as it went from one day it turned into, "Okay, what does the need look like for today?" And then, "What does the need look like for tomorrow?" And after a week, then it became, "Okay, what is it gonna be like for this week?" And then it became, "What is it gonna look like for the month?"
Amy DishroonAnd as pastors, we continued to meet weekly. So we gathered together. We got together each week. We debriefed, we planned, and supported each other through that time, which was gold.
Vic FrancisIt sounds like a, sort of, experience that will last you for a lifetime or will mark you for a lifetime. Was there a moment that you thought, "There's something happening here. This is something like I've never seen before"?
Andrew DishroonYeah, I think that moment came in actually in our first pastors meeting, that we sat down. And I think I worked it out, went back in the calendar, and it was only six days later. So the cyclone was on a Tuesday and so the following Monday. And we sat down in a room, and Convoy of Hope were in, they flew in. And one of their areas is they specialise in disaster relief, and they partner with churches to help you and in some ways resource you to go and do the work. So they sat down with us and just offered their help. But it really galvanised. I would say beforehand, I would've thought we were united, but it was in that moment you look across and you go, "Wow, we're in the thick of this. How are we gonna help people?" And I would say fortunately we had enough relational capital already in the bank to be able to launch from that.
Amy DishroonYeah. We really had relational unity. It just shifted to missional unity at that point.
Vic FrancisRight. Okay, so you knew each other, you got on really well, you know, you did your church perhaps individually, but then all of a sudden this is something bigger than any church, clearly bigger than any church, and so we have to do this together or it's just not gonna work.
Andrew DishroonYeah, exactly. And I think uh, Amy just said that missional unity became vital. And so that missional unity, even talking the days, weeks, months leading after that, became clearer and clearer. And yet we stayed fluid and so after about six months or so, those weekly meetings then became still monthly. But we worked really closely together for at least two years on cyclone cleanup and it's still continuing on now. It's just, now we know our roles and we work within it, but we still work together as well.
Vic FrancisIt's a phenomenal story. How has it affected ongoing relationships between churches and the city?
Amy DishroonYeah it's been beautiful. I think you do go deep in those kind of moments, and the friendships grow deeper as well. As churches, I think the gatherings together has increased significantly since then. We're gathering together unified as a city for prayer. We're gathering together for services, combined services, and we do that a few times a year. And we're also in progress at the moment, through particularly Ben and Jonathan Dove's encouragement as well in some of their training, we're working together as a city on what it looks like to collaborate on local mission work together. So we're pulling together who does what into one space so that as churches, we can serve together more, which is very exciting.
Vic FrancisIsn't that wonderful? I wonder too, does, do you think the community sees the church differently as a result of having been that unified, uh, force?
Andrew DishroonYeah, I think it has. There's been examples where you know, through just your everyday life, you're out and about and you introduce yourself or, you talk what you do, and you mention your church's name, and they're like, "Oh man, I saw you guys on, on social media. You guys did a lot during the cyclone." And so even at the end of last year, we partnered with another church even in Hastings to go help clean up a property for a family who have children with disabilities, and it all overgrown, there was weeds everywhere, and it got to the point it was so overrun they couldn't maintain it anymore. And so we partnered with the church over there. And the same team that we had to go out and clean up silt is now three years later now cleaning up properties. In fact, we just did one this last Sunday. And we call it Serve Sunday. But we're now, who's the closest church to this property? Let's go partner with them, and let's do it together so that if this person wants to go to church or if this family want to go to church, we wanna connect them with the closest church. We don't want them to have to travel 20 minutes away to come to us. And so that's some of the fruit of the unity that we've seen in the city, is that we all just wanna get in there and help people.
Vic FrancisI wonder also, how's it shaped your own ministries and and your attitude to doing ministry, that sort of experience of working together?
Amy DishroonYeah, as Christians, you wanna help and you wanna do things. It's just how. And so I think what it's developed in us is a real quickness of seeing a need, meeting a need, and not getting too fussy about all the things in between. And so like Andrew said, so from what we started when the cyclone happened three and a half years ago, we just continued, and our church continues it on now, and I think that's been a beautiful extension of being the hands and feet of Jesus. And we personally just love it. The people you get to meet, so many people have joined our church from discovering this joyful, faith-filled community on their property laughing and having fun together doing work. And other people who have a heart for community but maybe aren't connected into a church. They're like, "I wanna be part of that."
Vic FrancisThat is such a great story. Thank you. And Ben, maybe to look at it from a broader perspective, unity is so important, isn't it? Because when a crisis does come, it makes us ready, I suppose, to work together. We could look at it the other way as well. When a crisis comes, it creates unity that is obviously ongoing, as we're hearing about in the Napier situation. Such a wonderful thing for us to be exploring.
Ben MaiYeah. Thanks Andrew and Amy. It's a stunning example. It's inspiring to hear again the Napier story. Just beautiful. Just picking up on something Amy said right at the start there, Amy, you said that Bruce immediately called you together and into a room, and you came together as a group of Napier pastors. And I think in reality Bruce can only do that or you can only accept Bruce's invitation if there is already relational unity. And so you went on to say that your relational unity then became missional unity, and so your unity really deepened in the midst of this crisis. And so I think there's something there around, it's brilliant to have that relational capital already in place. That sets a brilliant platform. I also think that obviously in the midst of you know, Napier in 2023, Christchurch back in 2011 so on, there's other examples of natural disasters where there's brilliant examples actually of churches coming together and responding to these crisis. Another thing I perhaps just want to pick up on, I also think there's a range of slower moving crises in our cities. They're not in our face every day, they're not always headlining the news, but I think they are becoming more entrenched. There's homeless people living on our streets. There are families going without food. There's people of all ages who are socially isolated and incredibly lonely. There's older people literally dying of loneliness. There's domestic violence in households across our cities. There's the mental and emotional well-being of our youth at an all-time low. And responding effectively to these crises, I believe, is part of the calling of the church. It's part of loving our neighbour, and it's a really incredible opportunity to be the hands and feet and the good news of Jesus amongst our cities. I don't think any one church in any city in New Zealand has the resources or capacity to respond to all of these. But by working together, each one playing a part, I really believe that we can make a difference. And so I think in and amongst our local pastors networks as we go about day to day, month to month, meeting to meeting, I think there's a challenge there is that how do we turn our relational unity into missional unity for the sake of our cities? 'Cause there is so, so much need across our cities.
Vic FrancisBen, you have a bit of a bird's-eye view from your work with the Auckland Church Network, and no doubt you have a bit of an eye on the rest of the country as well because you'll be in relationship with people. What have you learned from watching churches that do respond and have responded during difficult seasons and as you say, more slow-moving things, things that don't have a beginning and an end by a disaster, but are, are there and amongst our community always?
Ben MaiWell, look, you sometimes hear this, this cliche, we're better together, and then what does that actually look like to kinda outwork that? But I think we are, as the church of our cities, as the church in New Zealand, I think we're starting to recognise more than ever that we can be better together. And I think that people in our churches, they wanna help. They wanna serve, they wanna love, in the midst of a crisis, whether that's immediate or whether that's slower moving. Where there's need there, where there's lack, where there's needs, I think people wanna help. And I think people in some ways are looking for permission and opportunities to do so. And I think, as pastors, I think there's a, a, a brilliant and vital and such a formational role in really providing that permission and that opportunity to serve, to love, and to bless those in needs in our city as well.
Vic FrancisI certainly think that's the case. And so thank you, Amy and Andrew, for your wonderful story, and to all of the pastors and churches of Napier, God bless you. And Ben, for your perspective as we explore this, um, and that inherent challenge of serving our communities, uh, all together rather than individually. Uh, We're gonna be back in a few moments, exploring some more important things, particularly what we individually can do as churches and as pastors to make some of these things happen. So we will be right back. Welcome back to Andrew and Amy Dishroon from Napier and Ben Mai from Auckland as we explore ways of growing a heart, not just for our own church, but for the city or town or place in which God has planted us. Now, Ben, looking back over everything we've talked about today, what do you think God is teaching the church through all of this?
Ben MaiSuch a good question, Vic. Look, I think there's three words that come to mind, and I think these are kinda Jesus words or kingdom words, I reckon, eh? So the three words are around unity, are around humility, and are around active service. We haven't talked too much about humility, but, uh, what I've discovered or observed is that unity amongst pastors grows at the speed of relational trust between pastors. And I think relationally trusting one another just requires such a healthy dose of humility. And yeah instead of talking about the attendance and the buildings and the cash and so on, let's come together and talk about how we disciple our city together. How do we love and bless our city together, and that I think is a great perspective to take.
Vic FrancisFantastic. Andrew, maybe we'll ask you about trust. How can pastors begin building trust with each other?
Andrew DishroonI think asking personal questions, getting to know each other personally, what you're interested in. At the end of the day, it's really important that you treat another pastor as just another human being. I like to banter. I like to create jokes. But I also ask questions like, How's your ministry going?" And also never talk about how big your church is. It doesn't matter. It's more like, How are you and how's your family? How's your church?" And that builds trust.
Vic FrancisWhat is the first step do you think, or the first steps if a pastor is listening and they hardly even know the pastor down the road, or maybe even they have a bit of history with them, which might be unfortunate or somewhat negative. What are some of the steps that we could take just to make those initial steps towards making something happen?
Amy DishroonSo most likely in your region there are pastors getting together and praying. And so I would start asking around, find where you can connect in with others. And I know for us, we love it when new people come. We love it when a new pastor comes and gathers. And then our exhortation to you would be commit and go every single time that you can. Bump everything else off your calendar at the start of the year, put it on, and commit to going because if you only go once every now and then, you won't receive what you could, and you won't be able to give what you can either.
Vic FrancisBen, uh, Amy mentions prayer and praying together. Why do you think that prayer is so important and how does that change relationships even before we can expect to change a city?
Ben MaiI think prayer changes our heart before it changes our circumstances, that's true, I think, at an individual level, and I think it's true at kind of a corporate level as well. And I think why that is because coming before God in prayer really does require humility, we're really posturing ourselves before God and just surrendering to him really as we pray. And I think, that's where it changes our heart. And then we start to do that corporately, as a group of pastors or just as a group of believers, across our city, across our community. There's just something beautiful when we all take that posture. And I think God's spirit just kinda works through that and really unifies us. So I really do believe that prayer is a brilliant and perhaps a kind of a low-hanging fruit way as well of kinda coming together in unity as the body of Christ in our city. The
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Ben Maiguys are doing that brilliantly well around the kind of the Pentecost season and during other seasons as well. And honestly, I think prayer, yeah, is just something that kinda breaks down barriers, and there's something beautiful about that. A brilliant starting point, like you say, and such a vital starting point as well, of course, Vic.
Vic FrancisHmm. Andrew, what do churches have to lay down in order to do this work together?
Andrew DishroonYeah, I think for a pastor the cost is time. You do have to invest time. I think we all would admit that there is plenty of work to do out there just in your church alone. But I think prioritising, in our context the monthly gathering of pastors collectively you could see the ones who are invested. And the fruitfulness is that when something comes up like a natural disaster you have a voice, you have something to speak into. And we found that the ones who consistently would come to the meetings, when something came up, when a disaster came up and it required a decision to be made, their voice counted and it didn't matter how big or small their church or ministry or their influence was. And the ones that weren't there, they made an effort but it was harder for them to engage.
Vic FrancisAmy, how do churches maintain unique identities while sharing this common missional view of their city or their area?
Amy DishroonYeah. Andrew's dad David Dishroon, and I really wanna credit him because he trained us and raised us in a lot of this, and was both his parents, David and Linda, were amazing unity people. And so I think we watched him display this and model this, where he loved the church as a whole, and it didn't take away from what we had as a church ourselves. And so I think there's only gain really from working together. Our new friend, Aussie Greig Whittaker, who came over and did some training with us recently said, "We walk together on all things, but we work together on some things." And that's a really powerful line there. We can be united, doesn't mean we have to do everything the same.
Vic FrancisYeah. Anything you'd say, Amy, to a pastor who sort of thinks, I'm actually worried about losing some of my people to another church?
Amy DishroonI think as pastors it's very important to hold our churches with open hands no matter what. They're not our people, they're the Lord's, and we are under shepherds under him. So maybe that touches an insecurity that we probably all have because we love our people. But I think it really hasn't been a concern for us because we're all one big family, and I think if at the end of the day somebody really felt that another church that we worked collaboratively on fit them better, maybe that's a blessing to that church. For us I think, yeah, maybe again, that's what's been modelled by Andrew's parents to hold people with open hands.
Vic FrancisBen, what, what kind of things are actually better done together?
Ben MaiI think as a pastor, if you think ahead to your next season, it might be your next week or your next month, or maybe even looking at the annual calendar, a potentially useful filter to think about is like this: Is this thing a me thing, or is it a we thing? Is it a me thing or a we thing? So here would be examples of me things. So me things would be like, this is about our church. And at our own church this coming Sunday we have our annual general meeting, our AGM. Now that's a me thing. That's our church. We're not gonna bring five other churches into that context. Or, the week after next is an elders meeting. That's a me thing for our church. But then later on in the year, we're holding in Mangere Bridge a big bridge party, which is like the Halloween alternative party on the 31st of October. That's an opportunity to do a we thing. Together as churches in our local context, we could actually come together and really bless and serve the community. Or what about running Alpha? Maybe we could actually run Alpha together as multiple churches, or we could take kinda term about, so our church does it one term, the next church does it the next term. Things like that. And so I think you start to think about your, particularly your community-facing aspects. So many of them can actually be we things rather than me things. And I think when we start to do we things, we start to share resources, we start to share ideas, we start to lighten the burden on our own church and our own volunteers. And I think that's an exciting thing that creates a lot of potential for us.
Vic FrancisAndrew and Amy, I wanna get you to imagine for a moment your city, Napier. It's 10 years' time. Your pastors are gathering together, and as you have been praying, uh, for the city, what would you anticipate? What would show to you that, hey, this is the thing that we've been praying for all of these years?
Andrew DishroonI think some of that, that discussions that we're having together right now are percolating in our hearts about what does mission look like for us doing something together. I would love to see in 10 years' time that flourishing. I would love to see more pastors in the room. I would love to see, and I think we'd all agree, we wanna see a a revival or a renewal or a pouring out of God's spirit. But I'd like to see that in every church. Because the reality is we're gonna need all churches because we're all praying for the same thing. And so we're all believing for the same thing. So where we can, let's work together on that.
Amy DishroonYeah. I think after 10 years of prayer and faith and collective mahi together, I think seeing people across in our region, Hawkes Bay, finding hope in Jesus and the evidence of that showing across our land of decreased evil and increased love, that would do my heart good, people living life worthy of the calling they've received. Just people empowered across our region.
Vic FrancisCertainly something to pray for and something to be together over, I'm sure. Ben, if pastors across New Zealand caught this vision, what do you think could change? Think big picture for a moment.
Ben MaiYeah. Oh, it looks so, so exciting. Here's what I think around our current kind of nation, our society, our cities, is that we increasingly live in a divided society, don't we? People refute one another. They disagree with no, no measure of grace. They put up battle lines, social media has a lot to answer for here. And I don't think it's doing us any good Vic, to be honest. And when I think about churches, I think about, vision for discipling and loving our cities. I think about obviously the Great Commission of go and make disciples. But, what about a strategy of unity, of kinda doing it together? Being unified in relationship, in spirit in deed, and I think that's really counter-cultural. But I think it's so very attractive to our communities, to non-believers in our communities across our cities, across our nation. And so I think, as a strategy for mission, I think being in unity and being united can be really powerful and indeed kinda city-changing and nation-changing.
Vic FrancisThank you. Well, on this podcast, I ask all of our guests a question about hope. So Ben, what gives you hope?
Ben MaiLook, yesterday morning I got to hang out for a little bit with a bunch of 20-somethings who are sold out for Jesus, and that gave me hope. That gave me hope when I heard stories about the way the good news of Jesus is reaching young people across our nation in universities and workplaces, in secondary schools. That gave me hope. Something else I think that is part of the strategy there as I heard them talking about different kinda youth ministries, is just the sense of
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Ben Maithere's no walls here there's no competition here. Like, we're all on the same team. It kinda sounds cringey, but we're Team Jesus here. There's so much more that kinda unites us together that is common to us than is different to us. And so I think I was just so encouraged to hear that of let's put aside our labels, our banners, our brands, our denominational differences, and let's come together with the mission of Jesus. And it gives me a lot of hope for what might be possible amongst our church and amongst our nation.
Vic FrancisAmy, Andrew, what gives you hope?
Amy DishroonI agree with you on that, Ben. Like, looking at our teenagers, our daughters and their friends, and what's happening amongst that generation is wild. They are just sold out for Jesus, and they're seeing cool things. I think what does give me hope, Vic, people like yourself, pastors that have done the work. We're not pioneers here. We're getting to stand on the hard work of years and years of sowing into ministry, and probably so many prayers prayed that we're getting to walk out. We're mentored very closely by Ivan Bezant from Salvation Army, and he has just tirelessly served in these kind of areas of bringing together people. And I think, man in proper time, we're gonna see a harvest of so many things, and that gives me hope.
Vic FrancisThank you. Andrew?
Andrew DishroonI'm gonna say it like this. The harvest is great, but the workers are few. And we can look at that and feel like, "Oh man, I'm doing this on my own." But when I get around my brothers and sisters, we're not alone. And then the solution is we just need to pray to the Lord of the harvest. And so there is a harvest, it's happening right now. You're not alone. We can do this together. We're better together than being apart. And there's a lot of more good out there than there is bad.
Vic FrancisWell, thank you all of you. Another thing that I ask our guests here to do is to pray for our pastors of New Zealand, and increasingly around the world people seem to be listening to our podcast. So Andrew, you mentioned prayer there, and so I wonder if you'd lead us off and maybe, um, Amy and Ben could finish up. That would be great.
Andrew DishroonYeah, Heavenly Father, we um, first of all just wanna humble ourselves. And even the things that we've spoken about today, Father, I pray that whoever's listening to this, Lord, wherever your Spirit wants to highlight to them right now, Lord, would you do that? And may we as pastors put down our titles, put down our brands, our names, and Lord, may we just submit ourselves one to another and be a blessing to one another, and help encourage and strengthen each other um, for your glory so that the world would know that we are one. I, I just pray for every person listening to this that, God, you would do something powerful in their spirit, whether they are regularly attending or maybe they're not. But whatever it looks like in their local context, Lord, would you speak to them right now. Jesus' name.
Amy DishroonYes, Lord. I thank you so much for the love that you have, and I pray that you would continue to pour into our hearts more and more love for other churches, other pastors, and for our regions too. God, a picture you showed me years ago, was like a bird's-eye view of our nation, and it was these pockets of fire just burning in small places, in small regions, all spread across Aotearoa. And that as those flames burn brighter and we're connected together, just that, that light of Jesus would cover our land. And I pray that not only over our nation but over all the nations of the world, Lord, that as Christians come together, we work together, that fire would burn brighter and brighter from being together. That we would be encouraged by one another, Lord, and that your name, Jesus, your name would be spread across the world, that all would hear and have opportunity to come into faith with you. We bless those pastors. We're grateful for them. We pray for their families. We pray for their needs, Lord. I pray that you would release the abundance of your love and provision.
Ben MaiAs you listen today just receive this blessing. It comes from Numbers chapter 6. "The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace."
Vic FrancisAmen. Well, thank you, all of you, Amy, Andrew, Ben. Thank you for being able to see the big picture and not just your own patch, for celebrating and championing others even as you follow the call of God on your own lives. For having a vision which encompasses cities and towns and beyond. For realising that we are indeed better together, and for being willing to advocate for that. And so we champion you too and your holy callings in this uncertain world. God bless you. It's been a great pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
Amy DishroonWe're so grateful. Thank you for the blessing you are to us, Vic.
Andrew DishroonYeah, thank you.
Ben MaiThanks, Vic. God bless.
Vic FrancisGod bless. Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find out more about us in the podcast notes, and while you're at it, how about liking or rating this podcast and passing it on to a pastor you know who may benefit? Meanwhile, I'm back in a fortnight with something different again, talking about activism and justice. Just where do they fit within the life of the local church? I hope you'll join me. Bless you.