How Souls Grow

We often talk about growing in faith, but what does that actually mean? Is the faith we have at 50 or 60 supposed to look different from the faith we had at 20? What happens when growth involves not simply learning more, but questioning or even letting go of things we once thought were certain?

And for pastors, how do we navigate our own growing and changing faith alongside that of our congregation?

In this episode, Vic Francis talks with Alan Jamieson — Baptist leader, author, researcher and explorer of spiritual formation, who has spent considerable time thinking about how souls grow, and how faith changes and develops over a lifetime.

For more information on Vic and Solace, check out our website or search for us on Facebook or Instagram. And if you would like to support this podcast, please become a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/forpastors

Meanwhile, here are some links to people referred to in this podcast:

James Fowler 

• Faith Development and Pastoral care (1987)
• Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the quest for Meaning (1981)

Janet O. Hagberg & Robert A. Guelich

• The Critical Journey: Stages in the Life of Faith (1995)

Alan Jamieson

• A Churchless Faith (2000 Garside Publishing in NZ) Published internationally by SPCK, 2002.

• Called Again (2004 Garside Publishing in NZ). Titled ‘Journeying in Faith' – published internationally by SPCK – 2004. Printed copies available from Alan (email aj@portland.org.nz)

• Five years On (published in NZ April 2006 and internationally by SPCK under the title ‘Church Leaving' –Aug 2006). Printed copies available from Alan (email aj@portland.org.nz)

• Chrysalis: The hidden transformation in the journey of faith  (2008 Paternoster). 

Enjoy the podcast, everyone.

Vic

Transcript

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Vic Francis 0:00

We often talk about growing in faith, but what does that actually mean? Is the faith we have at 50 or 60 supposed to look different from the faith we had at 20 or 30? What happens when growth involves not simply learning more, but questioning or even letting go of things we once thought were certain? And for pastors, how do we navigate our own growing and changing faith alongside that of our congregation? My guest today is Alan Jamieson, Baptist leader, author, researcher and explorer of spiritual formation, who has spent considerable time thinking about how souls grow and how faith changes and develops over a lifetime. Welcome to For Pastors and How Souls Grow. Alan Jamieson, welcome to For Pastors.

Alan Jamieson 1:11

Great to be with you. Looking forward to it.

Vic Francis 1:13

So who is Alan Jamieson these days? What's occupying your life and attention mostly at the moment?

Alan Jamieson 1:19

That's a big question, isn't it? It is. Yeah. So I'm coming to the end of 38 years of being. a Baptist pastor.

Vic Francis 1:24

Yep.

Alan Jamieson 1:24

So in three churches. One was a church plant back in the day. One was a very established church in Wellington where I was senior pastor, and then a senior pastor of a major church in the South Island. And the last seven years I've been looking after the global development aid and mission work of the Baptist churches in New Zealand. So I'm now in the last three to six months of countdown, depending on how long the new person wants in transition.

Vic Francis 1:50

Wow. And what does, after 38 years pastoring, what are you looking ahead to?

Alan Jamieson 1:55

Well, the first thing is completing a drive around Australia.

Vic Francis 1:59

Oh, lovely.

Alan Jamieson 2:00

And then the next thing will be a six-week Ignatian immersion course in Spain, and then probably a little bit of a walk around one of the, uh, Caminos in Spain, and then we'll come back to New Zealand and think about, okay, what's next in life?

Vic Francis 2:13

When you look back over your life with God, I'm wondering how different is faith now that you have from, say, the faith that you might have had 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago?

Alan Jamieson 2:23

I think I'd start by saying it's no different at all. In the sense of, uh, in my 20s I was very convicted by Jesus as the Son of God who took on full humanity in the incarnation, taught, lived, died, was buried, rose again and was, um, ascended to the Father, and this is the basis of my faith. And I would say in my now mid-60s, this is still the basis of my faith. But the way I understand that, and the way that that is expressed in my outer world involvement, and the way that that has deepened in myself, and my way of holding that internally as a person has fundamentally changed since my 20s and 30s.

Vic Francis 3:08

Yeah. Tell us a little more about that. What does that look like or feel like? What have been the processes for that?

Alan Jamieson 3:14

I think it's hard to explain, but I would use words like, um, a greater deepening of that reality. So it's something which I hold more internally today. It's got a greater integration with all aspects of my life, and I think it's allowed me to have a far more porous relationship or conversation with people who see things quite differently. Not defensively, but engaging with them and what they believe, and a confidence about what I believe, but not a need to shout that from the rooftops.

Vic Francis 3:47

Mm. Have there been some particular turning points along the way, or has it just been a, a gradual progression?

Alan Jamieson 3:55

I think that mix of, um, gradual incremental change and then some quite startling, confrontational moments in my life, or crisis moments, or turning points that have led to more incremental change. So it's been a mix of slow development and, um, really quite challenging crises.

Vic Francis 4:15

Have there been any of those particular crises, as you say, that are significant enough to share today that might be relevant to others?

Alan Jamieson 4:25

One of the first was, um, or early on, was when I was around 26, 27. So I was an Air Force officer and our church decided they were sending a team to Manila to live in a squatter community for four weeks, and my wife and I put our hand up to go. That was the most stupid thing I've ever done in my life, because it fundamentally changed me.

Vic Francis 4:44

Yeah.

Alan Jamieson 4:45

We got there and I had a conversion experience over the course of that month, and the debrief process subsequently. And that was a conversion to the needs of the poor, and the broken, and the lonely, and the lost of our world. It wasn't that I was unaware, but I was very much unaware at a deep emotional faith level, and that was a significant crisis that led a year later to me leaving the Air Force and going to begin training as a, what ended up being a Baptist pastor.

Vic Francis 5:16

Yeah. It's an incredible thing, isn't it? When you come face to face with your faith out working in different ways. Have there been other experiences as you've got a little older?

Alan Jamieson 5:27

Yeah. As I came to the end of my theological study, and I was pastoring at the time, I realised that prayer for me had become very, uh, dry, disconnected from what I felt was really significant for me. You know, that cliche of it felt like the prayers were bouncing off the the ceiling and not permeating any further. Yeah, that was a lived experience. I wasn't praying any differently, I wasn't praying any more, I wasn't praying any less, but I just felt this aridness, this dryness, this kind of pointlessness of my prayer. And that led me in a very long journey of, what does it mean to pray? How do I pray? How do I learn to pray differently? How do I connect with God in new ways?

Vic Francis 6:09

Yeah, we are gonna explore something of that journey as we go through today, but it's good to sort of pinpoint that as we're going, and probably an experience that others have had as well. Now, you had the unusual experience of studying with James Fowler. Uh, I'm wondering how that came about and, and what was Fowler like as a person and a teacher, and then we'll explore something about his work.

Alan Jamieson 6:30

So James Fowler was a professor in the United States of America at Emory University. I was looking in my research at why people left evangelical charismatic Pentecostal churches, and what happened to their faith over a period of time when they weren't attending any church. So that was my area of interest. And I found that Fowler's way of talking about faith and faith changes resonated well with the stories that I was hearing from these leavers. So then explored his faith stage material a lot more, and then used it very much as a theory underwriting my work on people leaving church. And then the irony of that when I was finishing the PhD, the professor came to me and said, "Who do you think could be an international examiner?" And I said, "Well, James Fowler." And anyway, they sent it to him, and he marked it and came back, and then he wrote me a really nice letter afterwards. So I wrote to him and said, "Could I come and do some time studying with you?" And he said, yes, and I spent some time there with him in the States, and there were two or three, uh, conferences globally that I was at with him. So we built a bit of a friendship. And he saw me very generously, as a practitioner of the stages of faith.

Vic Francis 7:40

Very interesting. And he is, of course, famous for his stages of faith, but not everybody will know what they are. Are you able to sort of give a precis of what Fowler's research uncovered?

Alan Jamieson 7:51

So from childhood, even from birth really right through to old age, he divided up our journey of faith into what he saw as sort of six major steps, and tried to describe what those steps are like or what those stages are like or those different phases are like. From the childhood phases into youth, into typically adolescence, and then the adult stages which you might say there's a general stage that typically would lead up to midlife, and then a stage of midlife itself, and then for some people, a stage beyond midlife. Not that faith's content changes. Like I said earlier, my belief in Jesus has been consistent. But the way I understand that, make sense of that, express that, and live that changes. So it's not necessarily the content that changes, but the way we experience that content and live out of that content can change quite dramatically.

Vic Francis 8:47

And how do those changes take place over time? Are they natural or like we, we grow as a person from a child to a teenager to an adult without, without thinking about it. It just happens. Um, how does spiritual faith growth happen?

Alan Jamieson 9:04

He would say for each of us there is a landing point, there's a place that we settle. And for different people those are different places on the journey. Some people might settle in what he calls his stage two. The title he gives it is mythical literal, but about 20% of the American adult population he would estimate settle there. And then at the stage six, the last of his stages, he put it about 1 to 2% of your over 60-year-olds in the United States of America would live there. There's certainly no, if you like, rhyme or reason as to why some people might find home at what he called stage two and other people might find it at three or four or five or six.

Vic Francis 9:44

Is it something that we progress neatly from stage to stage, or are we in every stage kind of all the time or we're gradually progressing?

Alan Jamieson 9:53

Yeah. The second part I'll pick up first. There's been a lot of work done more recently about are these distinct stages that we move out of in order to enter the next one, and the general feeling now is no, they're not. We kinda carry the previous stages within us. There might be one which we are predominantly living in as, as we experience the world today, but we don't lose the past. It's still very, very much part of us. So if, for example, if I was living in stage four, that really does mean three and two and one are still very much part of my mix. And you said about the changes. No. Mostly the changes, particularly from stage three to four and four to five, are quite, uh, traumatic, um, difficult, and take quite a lot of personal navigation and very consciously aware of a shifting in my faith.

Vic Francis 10:46

Is that something that would be called the wall? It's sort of like we actually have to go through something to go from three to four, you're saying, and from four to five.

Alan Jamieson 10:54

Yeah. So In The Critical Journey, which is a book written alongside Fowler's, drawing on Fowler but drawing on other theory as well, they use the wall from three to four to say going through the wall and feeling like a wall is the, the major shift of adult faith..

Vic Francis 11:10

Is that, uh, Hagberg and Guelich?

Alan Jamieson 11:12

It is. Yes, it is. Yeah. Yes.

Vic Francis 11:13

The Critical Journey. Yes. Okay. So yeah working, working through those stages. And we'll give some links, um, in the show notes to this to some resources either, Alan, that you wanna give us or to those things that we're mentioning as we go along the way. Um, you've said that you believe the same thing, and I'm wondering, faith does change, I think, a little, doesn't it? So is it our belief that's changing or is it the way we view our belief that changes, if that makes sense?

Alan Jamieson 11:41

Yeah. Fowler would talk about the lived experience of our belief and the way that we express that in the world through our lives as the crucial shifts. Of course the content may change as well. There's things that I believed in my 20s that I would not now hold as either something I believe or something which I see as being as significant as I did back then. But the crucial thing is not that content, the crucial thing is the way I hold that belief, and live out of that belief, and express that belief through my living.

Vic Francis 12:13

Mm. A little later in the podcast we're gonna talk a bit about pastors and their growing, maybe changing faith, uh, while they're in the fishbowl, as I call it at least, of ministry. But how's it been for you as a pastor, 38 years as you say, growing in faith personally while in that fishbowl?

Alan Jamieson 12:33

Oh, it's been a mixed bag. I remember an older man in my last church, and he was really quite concerned about, as he saw it, as my Catholic side. Your Catholic side. Mm. Well, I used to go off every year, maybe even twice a year, and spend some time in silent retreats. And the places that you typically do that were, you know, Catholic establishments. Uh, and so I ended up going to Kopua Monastery quite regularly, and would spend a week or 10 days there. And I remember him coming up to me one day and he said, "I don't know what you do, but I can see when you come back it's good for you."

Vic Francis 13:08

Oh.

Alan Jamieson 13:09

And so yes he was naming that as a member of the congregation who didn't really agree with, if you like, the places that I was going for these silent retreats, but who recognised something positive emerging from that. So that was a positive story. I think at other times I told too much of my own story and what was alive within me and changing in my preaching. And I had to learn that what's happening in my faith may be not, uh, cooked enough or prepared enough for actual public storytelling. Actually I needed more time in places like spiritual direction or supervision or just sitting with a mentor and talking things through. But it wasn't formed, I was still trying things out, still working things through, still often emotionally, you know, a bit wired on this stuff. And it wasn't ready for me to take it to the congregation. It was actually destabilising for some people in the congregation, the questions that I was working my way through. And I had to learn, I don't think I've ever got it right, but try and learn that some things are better held and for safe and confidential spaces, and some things are good stories that encourage and support a wider grouping of people.

Vic Francis 14:26

Do you remember a time where you might have felt threatened by your own internal changes, you know? Did you ever feel like, "I might be even losing my faith," or, "Do I really believe anymore?"

Alan Jamieson 14:37

Yeah. Totally. I mean, the first time would be that example back, uh, in my early 30s when I finished my theology degree was saying, "What's the story with prayer?" This was protracted. And you know, I was really limited to the words of one hymn in terms of what I was praying at that time. So there was a real wrestle going on within me at that time about going, "Well, if I can't pray, if I don't have a kind of sense of the efficacy of prayer, um, how can I be a pastor?"

Vic Francis 15:04

And how did that resolve?

Alan Jamieson 15:05

I think the gift really was, uh, reading Father Thomas Green in his book When the Well Runs Dry.

Vic Francis 15:12

When the Well Runs Dry. Great book.

Alan Jamieson 15:14

It is a great book. Yeah. And I found that at the time what he described and the imagery of the different ways of watering the land, uh, I found that really compelling and invited me into saying, "What I used to do isn't wrong, but at the moment I need to find a new way to water my soul." Or to allow the Spirit of God to be watering my soul, and that allowed me to put down old ways of praying and to explore some new ways that brought life to me. And I'm very grateful for reading that book at that time.

Vic Francis 15:48

Ah, we're starting to twig to a few resources now, which is just a great thing, I think. Uh, looking back over your own journey, and I guess we don't get really to say, "Oh, I'm in stage four," or, "I'm in stage six or two," or something. But where can you see Fowler's ideas reflected in your own story? Have you been conscious of a progression or a journey of your own?

Alan Jamieson 16:11

Firstly, I'd say you're right. And Fowler in subsequent research does say we're our own worst judge at this, and the reason is we tend to think further along the faith stage journey than we actually live. And the faith stages is far more about our lived experience than our thought exploration. And so we tend to judge ourselves on the sort of things that we think about in terms of theology, faith and God, and less about how we actually live out our faith. So we're our own worst judge. Um, I did talk to someone who was doing a class and they gave out the stages, a theological class, gave out the stages and then asked people, you know, which one they're in, and was surprised how many 20-year-olds were living at stage six. At

Vic Francis 16:56

stage six.

Alan Jamieson 16:56

Um, so it's kind of like we do self-promote. Yeah. We think we're, yeah, we're ahead of where we are. Um, what was the second half of the question there, Vic?

Vic Francis 17:04

I'm just thinking for you, as you've sort of been- Uh- a student of Fowler and you've also been aware of your own, uh, spiritual evolution, how's that uh, married?

Alan Jamieson 17:13

When I've, there's been some shifts in my own faith, I've been aware of those shifts retrospectively. I've haven't really been able to name them, even though I can name the theory. I haven't been able to name them in the moment. Mm. But then months later or in conversation with someone, I've become aware, oh, that's actually sounding like it's a different way of me expressing what's really important to me and my relationship with God. But one of the things I did wanna say as we were making our way through is that Fowler's really, really clear we're no more saved at any point on the journey.

Vic Francis 17:46

Yeah.

Alan Jamieson 17:46

We might express that sense of being saved differently, we might even experience it slightly differently than previously, but we're no more saved because the expression has changed somewhat. I think that's really important just to put that out there, 'cause some people think of maturation, think of, "Oh, that's better." No, it's just different.

Vic Francis 18:07

Mm. And maybe before we go to a break, we could also just talk for a moment about one of the other things around Fowler that's sometimes, I guess, accused perhaps, is that, that he sort of talks towards a universalism or a liberalism at level six. Is, is that something you've been worried about in the study with him? Have you seen that?

Alan Jamieson 18:28

I think that is a common critique. Yeah. And there's no doubt that as the stages move forward, particularly stages five and six, there's a greater openness to people who understand and experience faith differently. But that openness, even embraced of those people, doesn't mean a loss of our own internal conviction and expression of faith. So I think that that's really important. And I'd say that spending time with Jim, he was clearly someone of deep, deep faith. Um, his father was a Methodist minister. And his father in the south of America. And as I said to him one day about, "What did you learn from your dad?" And he said to me, uh, "Dad fought for over a decade to make the public swimming pool of the town that they lived in, uh, for all people, for African Americans and for white Americans. And for that he received death threats. People left the church. People got angry. People did all sorts of things. But his father believed in the equality of humanity regardless of ethnicity, and so he fought for that." And Fowler said, "Although on the world stage because of a theory, my dad's faith has shaped who I am."

Vic Francis 19:37

What a beautiful story. And I think with that we will take a break. And when we come back I'm gonna be asking Alan more about growing faith, changing faith, how our faith evolves over time. So we will be right back. Welcome back to the For Pastors podcast in an episode we're calling How Souls Grow. And Alan, what actually causes faith or our souls to grow? Is it teaching? Is it going to church? Is it the experiences we have, or would it be suffering and doubt and, or is it relationships with others? Is it an encounter with God? What are the things that come together to make our faith grow and our souls grow?

Alan Jamieson 21:08

A great question and very difficult to answer. I think at different points of the journey there can be different key things that help us to grow. So it's not always the same thing that helps us to grow, for example, in stage two as in stage four. So that's important to say. But Fowler would say there are two things that are absolutely critical for faith stage change, and one of them is critical thinking, often imbued in us through education, that we have the skills and ability to stand back and look at something, critique it in the best sense, look at its strengths and its weaknesses, and analyse it and find a way forward. That he would say is one avenue that's really important, but far more significant, and perhaps the key driver of faith change, is personal suffering. And that, throughout history, has been a driver that has encouraged people, forced people, from Job onwards, to go, How is God relating to me? How do I relate to God? Who is this God? How do I make sense of what's happening in my life?" And that we can think we can kind of push ourselves forward in these faith stage changes, but actually we can't, and it's something of the Spirit of God mixed up with an ability to stand back and reflect and to think, but driven mostly by pain and struggle.

Vic Francis 22:29

Isn't that interesting? The thing that perhaps we fear most, or in some ways through our theology we think that we're, uh, supposed to be rescued from, is the thing that's actually helping us to grow mostly in our faith.

Alan Jamieson 22:42

Yeah. And you said before about that sense of going through the wall- Mm from one stage to another. That transition through the wall is not painless. It's a way of expressing a very difficult and painful journey.

Vic Francis 22:53

What happens in faith when the answers that once worked for us no longer answer the questions that we're actually asking. Is God working in that moment as well?

Alan Jamieson 23:03

Well, there's this lovely little quote, and I think it's Richard Rohr, that, "God is in the question just as much as the answer." And when we sit with that for a wee while, we realise that holding a question, not rushing to answer it, but just holding the question open, gives room for the Spirit of God to show us new things, or to show us connections between things, or to show us connections between ourselves and something of the aspect and life of God. So the questions are powerful spaces in which the Spirit of God can be working in our being. So rushing to answers, yeah, can actually lose the opportunity that the question provides.

Vic Francis 23:43

And that's quite a change, isn't it? Because I think perhaps as churches we sometimes say, "Come to us and we will tell you the answer," or even, "Jesus is the answer." And I suspect you're not saying that Jesus isn't the answer but there are so many questions that come up even with that, um, statement.

Alan Jamieson 24:00

Yes, and I am saying Jesus is the answer but until I actually formulate the question and fully understand the question, I don't really understand the way which Jesus is giving me an answer to that. But I would hold very dearly that Jesus is not a two-dimensional cardboard cutout. Jesus is a, a living being and an eternal living being which way beyond humanity, although Jesus was incarnated, but way beyond humanity. And me coming to understanding a minute aspect of that is mind-blowing, soul-blowing, you know, in every possible sense. So, yes, he's the answer, but it is not two-dimensional. It is not simplistic.

Vic Francis 24:40

Mm. I'm wondering if churches can inadvertently prevent people from growing by the way that they operate and, and maybe by the somewhat simplistic, as you say, certain conformity that we sometimes ask of our people, so that churches where you'd think would be investing in helping souls grow, our title today, sometimes almost become part of the problem rather than part of the answer.

Alan Jamieson 25:11

Yes, and there's a whole range of churches, and different expressions of the Christian faith in different churches. But there are definitely times where a church shuts down exploration. Where a church feeds answers so strongly that people feel like there's something wrong with me, or I'm acting incorrectly in my faith if I explore these types of questions or wonder about these types of issues. In that sense, they are restrictive in creating a boundary to the exploration of an individual.

Vic Francis 25:46

On the other hand, deconstruction's big and it's almost like perhaps some doubt and questioning gets a little romanticised and people drift away because they're so-called deconstructing. How do we sort of differentiate between genuine questions and people in a sense who are just using it as a reason to slowly drift away?

Alan Jamieson 26:09

Deconstruction is very popular and very, you know, common language on the fringes of the Christian faith at the moment. Um, deconstruction is important, but so is reconstruction. Mm. And there is a finite amount of time that you can pour caustic acid on your faith, and it doesn't erode the whole faith itself. So you can deconstruct and deconstruct to the point there's nothing left. And that is not the intent. The intent of deconstruction is to be able to take things apart so we can look at them, own them, work out what really connects and fits for us, and then rebuild our faith. That, which might mean adding some new pieces, sure, but it's fundamentally a rebuilding process. So my research back in the 1990s of people who've been out of the church for five years or more the vast majority came to a point, they didn't re-c-connect with the faith community, where faith was no longer shaping and motivating the key decisions of their life. In other words, they deconstructed to such a point that Christian faith was no longer a key factor in the way they lived their lives.

Vic Francis 27:15

And I guess that shines a light on how important it is that churches are a place where people can, I guess, ask their questions and shape and grow over time. 'Cause if they lose their church, they are more likely to lose their faith as well.

Alan Jamieson 27:30

Yes faith is a lived experience with others. It's never solo. There are no- Never solo lone rangers in the Christian church.

Vic Francis 27:36

Yeah, yeah.

Alan Jamieson 27:36

There may be moments of solitude. I go away for a week or 10 days in silence, and fundamentally I'm on my own, and I think that's appropriate. But I wouldn't do that for weeks, and months, and years.

Vic Francis 27:46

Yeah. What do you think mature faith looks like then?

Alan Jamieson 27:51

A greater and greater self-acceptance, a greater graciousness towards self and others, and a greater gracefulness, a giving of grace and a forgiveness and an inclusion and a warmth and a compassion towards others. All three of those are fed because a deepening experience of God.

Vic Francis 28:13

Yeah, I love that answer. You have been exploring, continuing to explore, and you mentioned before Ignatian spirituality. Uh, how did you encounter Ignatius and where have you found it's complemented what you've learned from Fowler and indeed what you've learned in your own Baptist tradition for all of these decades?

Alan Jamieson 28:36

Yeah, big question. So where did I encounter Ignatian spirituality? Uh, I had been on a number of retreats, in different spaces and different orders, if you like, of the Catholic faith, but in 20- uh, 2009 I was w- a spiritual director, and a small Catholic nun, and she said to me, "Uh, I think you'd like to go deeper in your prayer." And I said, "Yes." And she said, "Have you ever heard of the spiritual exercises?" And I said, "No. No idea." She said, Would you like to meet someone who could explain it to you?" And I said, "Yes." So I ended up meeting this guy Gerard, and he was someone who'd taken people through Ignatius, the spiritual exercises, which is a journey over nine months in the Gospels of Jesus. And he said to me, "Would you like to do nine months where you commit an hour a day to prayer and you just follow Jesus through his life?" And I said, "Yeah, I'd love to." And he set it up. He said, "I'm not gonna explain it to you. We're just gonna start, and you'll learn as you go." So in 2009, 2010, I did that journey. We met once a week for 20 minutes, and he would give me the next week's homework, and I'd go home with my seven passages and pray those for an hour each day. Some of them were repeats, but anyway, and then we'd come back and he'd go, "Okay, what's God saying? What's God showing you? What's being opened up to you? What's the resistance in you?" Questions like that. And we went through that for nine months. The gift of that for me beyond a deepening of my prayer was, uh, a year and a half later, the earthquakes hit Christchurch Mm and, uh, I was senior pastor of a church in that time. We and everyone else in Christchurch were significantly affected. That journey gave me a little bit more depth and a little bit more calmness in my being that helped me through that next 18 months as we went through a lot, um, that I think I would have struggled to have held in the same way if I hadn't gone on that journey.

Vic Francis 30:41

Wow. So it was a real provision or a grace of God or something like that.

Alan Jamieson 30:46

That's definitely the way I see it. I felt equipped. Not that I knew that. Mm. Had no idea going into it, but retrospectively, um, I felt, oh, this has been significant for me.

Vic Francis 30:55

Mm. Yeah. Ignatian spirituality puts a lot of emphasis obviously on the internal, um, workings of our lives, of our heart. Why is that so important, do you think?

Alan Jamieson 31:06

Yeah, I would use the language of deepening, I think, uh, where you're talking about the heart. Because that's where I think human change really happens, in the deep places or the heart places. That's where attitudes, ways of responding, ways of reacting, ways of being with people, who we choose to include, who we notice, all those, they're fed out of there. And so that deep inner work is really important from an Ignatian perspective.

Vic Francis 31:32

I wonder how you've found it to learn to discern between when God is drawing us somewhere, somewhere new I suppose, as opposed to perhaps our own natural dissatisfaction or restlessness or our feeling that our church isn't meeting our needs or whatever. How, how do we figure out what's a movement of God and what's sort of just human nature?

Alan Jamieson 31:58

It's really hard, isn't it? Mm. Uh, that's the great journey of discernment. Mm. The being able to, if you like, weigh the inner journey or to discern the spirit, spirits, as Ignatian would say, within us. Um, it's not easy, and it's easy to become confused. So I think we need to learn to sense, using Ignatius again, what is leading to greater praise, reverence and service of God.

Vic Francis 32:22

Mm.

Alan Jamieson 32:22

If something I'm sensing is leading me to greater praise, reverence and service of God, then it's probably God that's at work. But then also having a companion, a mentor, a spiritual director that we can bounce, especially key decisions, off and check in, someone outside of ourselves who knows us reasonably well that there is that congruency and that sense of, "Yes, this seems the work of God in your life. It stacks up. It makes sense of how God is working within you." I want to do both. I want to do internally, is this drawing me towards a deeper expression of God? And externally, are the people who are close to me and around me who care for me, are helping me to say, "Yes, this seems right."

Vic Francis 33:07

What would you say to somebody who really does feel like their faith is slipping, that their faith is changing and maybe feels frightened, just not sure where they're gonna end up? Someone who's genuine as opposed to someone who's just looking for a reason to be out. How would you encourage somebody like that?

Alan Jamieson 33:25

That God loves you more and is more concerned with your journey with God than you are, and you can trust God to continue to hold you. If you've got that desire for God, that longing for God, whatever you might be feeling, trust that God has got that same desire and long it 10 times more for you. Secondly, I think having good help, having that spiritual director, that companion, that pastor, that pastoral carer alongside you. When it's dark, it's great to have someone alongside us, um, a companion who's been in similar country before and can help to navigate a way forward that may be completely new for us. That's really important. And to trust that, um, scripture is the great feeder of God. Spend time there, and pray out of what you're reading and learning from scripture. Take that to God. Chew on that with God. Wrestle that through with God. Even when it doesn't feel like there's much coming back, do your part to keep the relationship alive and the conversation fresh.

Vic Francis 34:32

Mm. Those are three great pieces of advice, if I can just recall them, was God loves you more than you know. See somebody who's gonna be able to work with you, a spiritual director or somebody who's gonna be able to walk with you. Uh, and the third one has just escaped me as I'm going.

Alan Jamieson 34:49

Well, just that sense of stick close to scripture and use scripture as the basis of your prayer. Yeah. I mean, it's the Psalms, for example. You know, letting them frame your prayer, and stick with it. Um, I, I don't need to answer the questions, Vic. You got them all sewn up.

Vic Francis 35:03

No, I forgot the last one. Thank you for that. That must be the one that I need, mustn't it? So what are the practices that have helped you personally keep growing rather than simply sort of stagnating? I know that that is super intimate and personal, but are there things that have been really life-giving for you, either currently or over time?

Alan Jamieson 35:22

As I've said a couple of times, retreats for me have been important. So mostly my adult life has been expressed as a pastoral role. And, uh, much to many people's surprise outside the church, the pastoral role is actually quite demanding. Mm. And it's quite complicated, relationally complicated, as well as organisational roles that you might have. And I found actually going away geographically and having a week without expectations and away from both family pressures and work, church pressures was a real gift. Mm. So diary-ing in once a year, a week to 10 days where I was gonna be away on retreat, for me personally, as you know, strong introvert, was a really helpful piece in the mix. Mm. Having a daily practice of prayer I think is really, really important. As many Ignatian followers have said, actually nailing my backside to the seat, regardless of how much I think my prayer is dry or pointless, or I want to get up and move away and do something else, I've set my clock to a certain amount of time each day, and I will sit in this seat and do my best to focus on God. That's a, a great sacrifice that God sees, and over time obviously settles us to prayer. Scripture, really important, but for me also has been reading, and principally reading the lives of others and their journey with God. And so as I get older, I find if a book isn't 500 years old, I probably don't wanna read it.

Vic Francis 36:50

Less and less relevant, eh, as you get older. Um- Yes. Okay. Alan, be a spiritual director to the pastors of New Zealand for a moment and give us a practice that we could actually try when we finish this podcast that you think might be helpful for us.

Alan Jamieson 37:08

Yeah, so drawing on Ignatius again, I would want to push towards the Examen, which many people know. And if you don't know, just go online. E-X-A-M-E-N, Examen. And there are many examples of it, and it's very simple. But Ignatius would say, "If you only got time today for one prayer, make it the Examen." In a typical Ignatian day, we would start our day with a prayer born out of scripture, and we'd end our day with the Examen which looks at our daily life, because we recognise that God is at work through scripture and God is at work through the realities of our daily lives. This is how God speaks to us. And when the two come together, that's the best of the conversation of God's Spirit working through scripture and daily experience of life. But anyway, coming back to the Examen. It's just five, 10 minutes of very simple prayer, and it's completely self-occupied, so most of us enjoy it. It's just about us. It's saying to God, "God, I want to reflect on where you have been with me today. Help me to have the courage, the insight, and the courage of your Holy Spirit to see where you have been with me today." And then just wander through the different conversations, pieces of work, experiences of the day. Just be aware of them. And the third step is to be grateful for where we have sensed God. The next step is to ask forgiveness for those places where we ignored God or went away from God or, um, ignored a prompting of the Spirit that we knew to be true. And the last part is simply saying, "Lord, help me to be more sensitive, more aware of you tomorrow because of the experience of this Examen." It's a very simple prayer that just helps us to reflect: where is God engaging with me in every moment of every day, and how can I be more sensitive to that engagement of the Holy Spirit tomorrow?

Vic Francis 39:09

What a wonderful thing. I'm thinking of dozens, hundreds of pastors who listen to this podcast go away today and do the Examen. What a healthy investment that would be in both our lives and in our church's life. So thank you, Alan, for your, your wisdom and depth in this area. And, uh, listeners may like to check out Alan's books as well. He's written at least five, particularly in the context of this conversation, his book from 2008, I think, Chrysalis: The Hidden Transformation in the Journey of Faith. Is it still available, Alan? You can, you can still pick it up?

Alan Jamieson 39:42

It is. It is. Indeed. It- Yeah is still available, yeah.

Vic Francis 39:44

Yeah. So you can seek, seek that out and you'll find out a lot of things from there. So we'll be back soon. In our final segment, we're gonna be back to exploring changing pastoral faith, looking back into that fishbowl, um, what's it like doing this whole thing in our churches. So we will be right back. Welcome back, Alan Jamieson, to our fascinating exploration of how faith grows in us as pastors and of course within the congregations that we care for. I know in my decades of pastoring I have been very grateful to my congregation for allowing me to grow from a 31-year-old to a 64-year-old, they have seen me grow and develop and evolve a lot and stumble I'm sure at times, so I've been very grateful. What have you experienced, Alan, or what have you observed maybe from a pastoral point of view as pastors grow in this fishbowl of ministry? What are some of the things to look out for? What are some of the things that are helpful and maybe some of the things that we can avoid?

Alan Jamieson 41:16

It's a big question again, Vic. Uh, firstly, I would be very, very grateful. I think the pastoral ministry invites you into some absolutely privileged moments in people's lives, some of the most painful and some of the most beautiful. But also into the very privileged spaces of their journey. And as a pastor sitting in somebody's house, often when there's something critical happening in their lives, and just hearing their story or, or them expressing what's happening for them. Or praying with somebody in a church setting or wherever it might be, or just sitting listening to somebody's story. I have found that to be incredibly rich and an enormous gift to my faith. Sometimes I've walked out with more questions than answers, sometimes I've been a bit challenged, sometimes I've just been incredibly encouraged, sometimes I've felt enormous compassion. But the privilege of being invited into those very sacred spaces in people's journeys and people's stories I think is a wonderful gift of being a pastor. Um, you are just invited into the most sacred moments, and that is a enormous privilege. But you're also in the public eye, as you have said, and that has its, uh, delicacies, in that you have to be quite cautious about what you express from the stage, from the platform as a pastor. Primarily we're shepherds. Primarily we're there to encourage, to teach, to enable, to support, uh, the people in their journey. And having that right balance in what we share and how we share it is really important. So yeah, people are looking at pastors, looking at us as leaders in the life of the church and the hope that we bring them compassion, encouragement and support today. And so that is really, really important. And then there's that bit that I said earlier on about there might be stuff happening in my life which is really quite dominating and quite significant at the moment. But that question is, is this just for me, or is there some aspect of this that might be encouraging, supportive and helpful for the wider church?

Vic Francis 43:25

Yeah. So it's not like you're hiding things from your congregation, is it? It's just being wise in terms of when you allow that to be spoken of.

Alan Jamieson 43:33

Yeah. We're hiding when we're not telling anybody.

Vic Francis 43:36

Yeah, yeah.

Alan Jamieson 43:37

But finding the appropriate audience for what it is that we need to be sharing is, I think the key, and that can be a supervisor, it can be a spiritual director, it can be a particular mentor or, or a coaching relationship. And then other things are more appropriate for our board, our deacons, our elders, whatever it might be that our church has. And other things are more important for the public sphere. But knowing which goes where is, yeah, a bit of a, a wise dance.

Vic Francis 44:09

Yeah, a wise dance. I just think that that's such a brilliant phrase. We're hiding when we're not telling anybody, um, but we're wise as to who we're telling. I think that's so great. Um, sometimes over the course of time, of course, a pastor's theology or understanding, or it'll be doctrine or dogma sort of does change. I mean, you're a Baptist minister, but you've had an Ignatian spiritual journey as well. How do you work with those things that are happening when you're leading? So you're leading your Baptist congregation, but maybe some of your richness is coming out of almost like a different sphere of the church.

Alan Jamieson 44:46

Yes. And I think of the relationship between pastor and congregation is a marriage, and some partners in a marriage may not work, so we need to own that. If our faith changes considerably, we might not be the best person to be pastoring in this situation. That's extreme. Uh, but mostly like I went away to all these retreats through the years, um, I didn't major on the sort of Catholic-ness of their beliefs and what they were saying. I majored on, when I was talking about it, what it was it was doing for me. Where was I experiencing God? Uh, how did I sense God was speaking to me or encouraging me? So I tried to major on what's most significant and universal rather than on the particularities which might divide us, uh, or might raise concern in the life of the church. So, and I've read all over the theological spectrum through my decades and found some really helpful advice or insights from Scripture from liberation theology, from Catholicism, from feminist theology, from gay theology, from quite conservative theology. But I don't need to necessarily name that as the crucial thing. It's the insight. It's the piece that they helped me to see about Scripture, about God, or about prayer that was helpful.

Vic Francis 46:02

And you mentioned earlier the importance of learning. And we're only gonna learn if we read widely or if we're tapping into a, a wide variety of sources, I think.

Alan Jamieson 46:12

Yes, yes. And when I started my theology, there's some, some very well-meaning people in the life of the church came up to me and said, "Oh, we're concerned you're gonna be studying theology. You'll end up a liberal." Mm. Now, I really get what they were concerned about, but for me, it was important to read a variety of expressions of the Christian faith and understandings of the Gospels and the Scriptures. Doesn't mean because I read it, it became my own belief but it was important to read it.

Vic Francis 46:40

Important to read it. Now, if we talk a little bit about our churches themselves, if Fowler's right, there could be people sitting beside one another on a Sunday morning in your church or my church or anybody who's listening, who are at quite different stages of the faith progression. Can we preach one sermon to them? Can one church minister effectively to people who are at stage one versus stage six and everything in between? How does that all work out?

Alan Jamieson 47:09

Yeah, great question. So yes, it's wonderful that we're sitting next to people of different stages, and each of the stages have got gifts and blind spots. And the wonderful thing of sitting next to somebody who's in a different space, is that those gifts can be a gift to us. These things might not be accentuated in my faith today, but boy, I can learn from and appreciate them in the person sitting beside me. Can we meet all the stages? Uh, you could if you're playing gymnastics, but I think realistically we can probably cover about three. You can have them all sitting together, but mostly we cover two or three.

Vic Francis 47:45

Are churches typically ideal for people in any particular stage, do you think?

Alan Jamieson 47:51

Well, one of the things that Fowler worked on, and he drew this from others before him, was what he called the modal development level. In other words, in every church there's a ceiling of faith development which is encouraged through the stories, the preaching, the, uh, governance and organisational life of the church, the decision making, the worshipping style. Now that ceiling is like a magnet that draws people up to that stage, but also dis-encourages them from going beyond it. So for some people, they feel like they're hitting a ceiling, they can't go any further. But for others, it's an absolute magnet which is drawing them to grow and develop and learn. So I think every church has that, but it can be at different levels in the faith stage journey.

Vic Francis 48:34

I'm wondering, from your book that we mentioned, The Chrysalis, whether it might be helpful just to talk a little bit about that, the whole butterfly effect thing and allowing people to go into a chrysalis phase. Is that helpful?

Alan Jamieson 48:46

Sure. Basically it talked about the journey of adult faith being like the three stages of the butterfly's life. The first is the caterpillar and the caterpillar's on the, the plant and it eats the leaves, and the more it eats, the more it grows, and it sheds its skin. And life is pretty normal or pretty straightforward if you like. And that's the normal Christian life for most adults. The more we work at our faith, the more we grow in our faith, and every now and again there's a bit of a addition or a learning, a, like shedding of a skin and taking on a new skin with a new vulnerability. But then somewhere in the journey of a caterpillar, this most remarkable and unexpected thing happens, and the caterpillar stops one day and attaches itself through a stunning piece of, uh, biology to a, a leaf or a stem, hangs upside down, and starts to weave its own chrysalis. And within that chrysalis it completely breaks down into a thick treacle-like goo. Nothing like a butterfly, just a DNA mass. Now for many people, that's what it's like to go through a significant faith stage. It's almost like faith as they've known it completely stops, and they end up in this dark space where what they've known of God a- and their own expression of connecting with God just completely dissolves. But then in the beautifulness of nature, there is these, um, liminal cells that have the ability to somehow tell this DNA goo to reform, not as a caterpillar, but as a butterfly. And in the same chrysalis, this is the, uh, deconstruction, reconstruction. The deconstruction is the breaking down into the goo, but the reconstruction is the formation of that goo back up into the form of a butterfly. And if the sun shines on it and it's warm enough to give it sufficient energy, that butterfly can break through the chrysalis and come out as a completely different looking and living expression of exactly the same DNA, exactly the same being, if you like. But if you can imagine the butterfly flying over the top of a caterpillar, the two would not recognise each other. Mm-hmm. And that, if you like, in a very simple three-stage metamorphosis, shows something of the significant change that can happen. But it's exactly the same being. It's just in different form.

Vic Francis 51:20

That's so important, isn't it? Because churches presumably at their best are going to be able to hold all three of the caterpillar, the chrysalis and the butterfly all through those different stages, aren't they?

Alan Jamieson 51:34

Yes. But the way we treat the caterpillars is different to the way we treat the chrysalis and the butterfly.

Vic Francis 51:40

Yeah. Yeah. And we're not aware of those processes, are we? Because so often people are going through it, they're not telling us, or I guess we're worried about them losing their faith or something, when in fact it's much more of a God-given-

Alan Jamieson 51:56

Yes

Vic Francis 51:57

gift, this- Yes process.

Alan Jamieson 51:58

Yes. Yes,

Vic Francis 52:00

God is the God of the goo. Wow.

Alan Jamieson 52:02

Yeah but let's be realistic too, not every caterpillar grows up to be a fully adult caterpillar. Hmm. Not every journey into the chrysalis works. Not every butterfly comes out of the chrysalis because there's enough sun, energy and life drawing it out, and not every butterfly flies away happily. And that's true of the faith journey as well. Yeah. This is what God intends, I would like to say, but it doesn't mean that we all make it through in a nice, neat pattern.

Vic Francis 52:29

Yeah. So I guess at our best we are providing as many of the ingredients as possible, be it sun and light and warmth and connection, that- Yes with the best of intentions that people will be able to go through those stages.

Alan Jamieson 52:42

Totally. And I think one of the greatest things we can do is say this is normal. That, you know, Pilgrim's Progress, to quote a book, actually the journey of being a pilgrim with God in different stages of the life is normal. Hmm. And that the, the experience changes is normal, and my experience doesn't have to be your experience, but there will be common themes and just it's okay. Hmm. It's okay.

Vic Francis 53:07

Thank you, Alan. Now, after all these years of thinking about faith development, and you've taught it and you've lived it yourself, you've written books about it obviously, where do you think God's still inviting you to grow? Is there still capacity for growth in Alan Jamieson now?

Alan Jamieson 53:22

Oh, if you met my wife or family they would say there's enormous capacity, you know. I wish he'd get on with it. Um, so yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, de-centring self. Uh, making more room for God and making more room for others.

Vic Francis 53:43

Hmm. Well, Alan, the, the pastors of New Zealand are acting as your spiritual director now hearing you get those things off your chest and want to encourage you along that way, um, even as you've been our spiritual director along the way of our conversation today. Um- Thank you on the podcast I always ask, um, my guests what gives them hope. So for you, that word, what gives you hope?

Alan Jamieson 54:08

Well, a lot of things give me hope at the moment. I get to travel around places like India, Bangladesh and China because of my work, and the remarkable resilience and love of people for God just amazes me every single time. What gives me hope? There is a real move amongst young people in our country and other Western countries today back towards searching for God, and an openness to open scripture, and to come to churches seeking support and help. I came in in the Jesus movement, the very early part of that. And, you know, these unusual people were fronting up at church, and the churches that could open their door and give room for these unusual people to pick up leadership and be engaged and be involved grew phenomenally, and I wonder if that's happening again. And as I look at that, you know, quiet revival, for want of better language, it's exciting. It's very, very exciting and very, very hopeful.

Vic Francis 55:07

Hmm. I think that's great. I'm wondering, too, whether you'd pray for our pastors of New Zealand. I always think we, we talk about on the podcast championing pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world, and that pastors, uh, do need to be championed and loved and prayed for. They give out, so maybe we can give to them. So would you pray for us?

Alan Jamieson 55:27

Yes, I'd love to. Our loving God, thank you that you are the good shepherd and the good pastor to each one of us. And for those who are involved in shepherding people, pastoral ministry, who are listening to this, Lord, may they know you as their shepherd, as the good shepherd and, uh, your compassion and your leading. And by the power of your Holy Spirit, may you encourage them and enable them for the tasks of today and this week. May they have a deep sense of the significance of the role of the shepherd, and therefore the significance of their role. And may each encounter with their people remind them that you are at work. And that is always two-way. The person that we're with is giving to us, and we are giving to them, and in that encounter you are present. So Lord encourage each of the pastors listening with the significance, importance and the opportunities of their day And may they sense your presence and love alongside them. Also, Lord, please equip them with people who can be mentors, advisors, coaches, spiritual directors, and give them the courage to open up with honesty. And we ask this in Jesus' name.

Vic Francis 57:14

Amen. Amen. We do indeed ask it in Jesus' name. I wanna thank you, Alan, for joining me today. It's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you also for your long and priceless contribution to the church in Aotearoa. You're one of our legends, I think, um, for being pastoral yet scholarly, for walking the walk, not just talking the talk, for asking questions that many of us would prefer to ignore or to skirt around, for growing yourself and for sharing that so willingly, both on this podcast but also in books and through other methods to us all, and for still deepening your spirituality, as you say, which is an ongoing inspiration, I think, to everybody who would be listening to the podcast today. And so we champion you too, Alan Jamieson, in your holy calling in this uncertain world. God bless you as you finish up at the end of the year and as you go into these other adventures. It's been a great pleasure.

Alan Jamieson 58:08

Thank you very much. Enjoyed it very much. Thank you,

Vic Francis 58:11

mate. All the best. Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more about some of the material we've referenced in the podcast notes, and in the meantime, how about liking or rating this podcast and passing it on to a pastor you know who may benefit? And I'll be back in a fortnight with something different again, talking with a couple of well-known liberal or progressive pastors about how they see life, faith, scripture and where they fit in the church today. I hope you'll join me. Bless you.