27 - List Hammer, Math Hammer, Feelings Hammer

In this episode of the "Grown Men Playing With Toys" podcast, Erik and Steve discuss the community’s negative reaction to a recent Warhammer 40K Balance Dataslate. The conversation frames players’ reactions as a progression thru the steps of: 

1. “Slate Hammer” - establishing pre-slate expectations that a Dataslate needs to meet to be "good"
2. "List Hammer" - having fun through list building and optimizing your list through mental reps
3. "Math Hammer ” - using various resources to calculate and optimize the power of your list into various opponents based on "statically average dice rolls"
4. Warhammer - actually playing the game where variation comes from various sources: dice variance, Invulnerable Saves, Feel No Pains, Re-rolls, terrain formats, and misunderstood rules 

They encourage assessing your play environment and close by reinforcing the importance of communicating, trying games before doom-spiraling, and experimenting with lists/opponents/terrain.

Check out our blog for more content:

https://gmpwt.blog/

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Boohoo get a helmet. Life's hard. I'm sorry. I don't feel bad for that person. Welcome to the Grim Men Playing with Toys podcast. They said we're too old. We said, hold our dice. We're your hosts, Eric and Steve. Eric, I'm changing it up today. I want to know how you're feeling, but I want you to describe it as a feeling. What's our feeling of the day today, Eric? Bad. B A D bad. What? Okay, hold on. So wait a second. So I go on vacation, right? And it was amazing and wonderful. Got some vitamin D and you know, all that fun stuff. Did some beach time. I come back from vacation, and you're gonna hit me with the feeling isn't bad. Like, okay, explain yourself, sir. Why?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

So it's one people listening, can we just call them the third chair? Because I think that's kind of cool. It makes it feel like they're here with us. So I'm not gonna make that a question. I'm just gonna Okay, so the third chair can't see it, but I was laughing the whole time that I said that. It I don't actually feel bad, but there was a data slate last week, and apparently, according to everything I've read on the internet and everything I've listened to in what I'll call podcastistan, that's how I'm supposed to be feeling right now. Like I'm everything is terrible. I should be lighting my torches and sharpening my pitchforks and booking booking a ticket to Nottingham to go vent my spleen at GW for the quality of the data slate that they just did and how bad, bad, bad, bad, bad 40k is right now. So I don't actually feel that way because I think we've covered in the past I'm a big-time contrarian, so if you tell me I have to feel a certain way, I'm probably gonna feel the other way just out of spite. But it's the joke was bad because that is what the most of the community seems to be saying everyone should be feeling right now.

Why the Recent Dataslate Feels Bad

SPEAKER_02 2:42

So I'll be honest, I have not looked at the data slate at all. And kind of for a couple reasons, right? So when the data slate comes out like this, everybody wants to jump all over it. Like it is the hottest thing going for 40k, right? And everybody's got an opinion, everybody's gonna just, you know, digest this and and try to conceive it and and and figure out what you know what is this data slate gonna do to my thing? How is it gonna change the way that I play, right? And there's all this like churn that happens for like a week or two, and then generally it settles out. So thankfully, I was on the nice sandy, volcanic, sandy beaches of Hawaii, not worrying about a data slate. But I come home and I'm like, hey Eric, how's it going? And you're like, oh my god, this data slate is killing me. And so talk to me about that because what when when when you're saying it's killing you, I don't think you're talking much about the actual content of the D slate, more so like this reaction that you're describing of how like things are are kind of bad. Like, so in your opinion, what's going on? Why is it why is it being perceived this way?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I I think a couple reasons. One is so I I I was pretty vocal leading up to this data slate of it's probably the last data slate of 10th edition, they're gonna launch 11th in the summer. We aren't connected with GW at all, we have no inside info, we're probably last on the list of people who would have inside info if they were giving it out. You will find out before we do third chair. Yeah. But it's you know, if you look at history, if you look at trends and timing and whatnot, and if you look at the general consensus out there again in in the community, this is the last data slate, and history also tells you they don't rock the boat in these because they're so busy working on the next edition.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

And they don't make big changes, and they're kind of okay letting the game just be what it is at this point in the editions, so that they can start the new one with a big bang and generate all this excitement and and do the PR stuff about this being the biggest edition ever. So they're not gonna try and steal that hype with a data slate beforehand, like they're not gonna do like a Grotmus level massive data slate. So we all kind of knew that was coming. The response, and I don't think it was an especially good data slate, like they didn't change a whole lot. There were really only like one or two factions that noticeably got improvements out of it. There were a couple that caught nerfs, but the general consensus, and I kind of agree, is it probably wasn't enough to take them out of the top five or six factions if you're playing a meta-style game. And then the big one that has people raging is twofold. One, Necrons didn't get the nerf bat that everyone thought they should. So they're still probably top of the meta. Katan are still really good. It got a love tap, it didn't get absolutely obliterated. And then the second one is they released a new model for Tao that is way undercosted and has way too many abilities and is riding the highway to the danger zone from a power perspective. So the general consensus is not a great slate. But for me, it's like, well, we all kind of saw this coming. And even if they don't put out a great data slate, we still can have a lot of fun with this game, and we still can have a lot of fun as a community. Why do we have to fixate on the fact that the slate wasn't perfect and wasn't exciting, and and my faction isn't gonna be the dominant one now, and they they didn't change all these glaring problems that I can pull all this data to show my faction has. So I'm just it's a general disappointment of the like, are we really gonna do this? So that that's what I meant when I said this slate is killing me. It's the I very much enjoy listening to a lot of the content that's out there. And it was just a week and a half of everyone repeating the same, like, I can't believe that they would release something this bad. I'm like, oh, we're gonna do this again.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

So I maybe semi sorta kind of potentially lied, just a little bit, just a just a tiny bit, okay. So because um a a new model for the Votan, right, was was was kind of talked about pretty hot here, I think, in the state of sleep, where you know you brought up the new Tau model, right? Um, and the cost of said Tau model. Um, and well, the Votan got a new model, and the cost is kind of a little crazy, I would say needs some fine-tuning potentially.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I don't know. The joke I've heard is three factions got new models. The Tau got the twin lance, which is actually two models. Yeah, the Tyranids got a Tyranid Prime with uh a lash, and the Votan got a leader for the Berserks, like Baric Stormbrow, or whatever. Yep. And the joke I've heard is the Tyranid model and the Votan model, both of which are objectively worse from a rules, power, etc. perspective than the the twin lance, you add them together and they cost more than the twin lance. So the twin lance, you get better models for lesser cost.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

So I I don't know. So I did I did hear about that, I did watch that. I kind of laughed. I will tell you to to check out from the data slate side of things when you look at the the new Votan model. Um I actually think it's really cool, aside from the stupid top knot that they put on his head. Like, it's a dwarf, man. They don't get a top knot. Like, what is that? But anyway. So, yeah, I I just wanted to come clean for everybody out there that I I lied a little. I did get that part of the the new data slate. Um, just because I wanted to know how much this thing was gonna cost me and whether or not it was worth it. I don't think he's worth a whole nother set of berserks, so I'm just gonna run double sets of berserks instead of having a leader with them. But anyway, more more on that later. So, okay. So, yes, everybody's in a little bit of a pity party because data slate came out and it was a whole bunch of vanilla ice cream, right? Yep. Which it's kind of gonna be, if I remember correctly, in ninth, right? The end of ninth, right? It was kind of the same thing, I think, for the orcs, right? I think it it was kind of like everybody was hoping they were gonna get the old slack down and they kind of got a meh, and then come tenth, you know, gas got nerfed into oblivion. But yeah, I think there was a couple other factions at the end of ninth that were kind of in the same boat, but um Um Votan. I don't want what are you talking about? That not even a part of this discussion. I was purposely maybe ignoring that fact, you know, that the Hecaton was completely overpowered. But, you know, stuff happens, right? We don't have a lot of models. Leave us alone. Um let's just say it this way.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

The Votan were the Catan before the Catan were the Catan. The Votan were the Catan of 9th edition, which to your point, this is history. We've all seen this before. This happens at the end of edition, which I think in part is what enrages folks because they want to see improvement and they're like, you keep making the same mistakes, which I get, but to your point, is it as bad as it was at 9th edition? I don't think so. So wait a second.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

So uh Eric, in your crystal ball, do you potentially see them in 10th edition nerfing the Catan as bad as they nerfed the Hecaton?

List Hammer

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Oh, you mean in 11th edition? Or yeah, I'm sorry, an 11th, yeah. I mean, these things always go up and down. I it my my theory on balancing is I think that I think it was 6 Plus Plus that said this. They had a really good thing where they talked about how time playing the game is relative because not all of the community gets the same number of games in in every balanced data slate window, meaning the high-end, super competitive, always grinding tournament players may get something like 50 games in during a quarterly balanced data slate window. But people who play just in their LGS, just with their friends, maybe one or two tournaments per quarter are playing more like a dozen games or a half a dozen games. And so they the point six plus plus plus made that I really liked is they basically said it it seems like with these things, GW is trying to split the difference on the time at which those two groups experience the power in the meta, so they're not completely obliterating things after 90 days, because then you'll get the more casual crowd who isn't playing as many games, and they'll get upset because you know I only got to use this thing once or twice, and then it got nerfed to oblivion and it's unplayable. But they they're also not gonna let it linger forever, and if you look back at 10th edition, the magic number seems to be six to nine months. They'll let something be high weight of the danger zone, potentially OP, as long as it's not egregious and oppressive, for six to nine months, and then you'll get the December of last year Eldar Fire Dragon Nerf Hammer. You'll get the funny how many times Eldar comes up with this, the Yanari treatment. You'll get the Death Guard treatment from last September. So they they actually do have a pretty proven track record of how long this let this stuff go, unless it's really egregious.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

So I'm gonna defend the naysayers a little bit of things, right? So and and I'm not gonna defend the fact that it, you know, there's a lot of negative stuff that's out there, and every time a data slate comes out there, we gotta peel a lot of people back from you know hovering over their Cheerios bowl, making sure they don't, you know, take a header, right? There is an aspect though, and it's not something we've talked about. We we we've talked about different ways to play the game, right? We've mentioned, you know, different types of tournament styles, we've mentioned going to different, you know, playing with your friends versus playing in a in a uh store, you know, different modes of playing. But I think there is a game of 40k that is played without ever touching a model, without ever stepping into a store, and without ever even having to, you know, essentially play an opponent, right? And it is the game of I'm going to theoretically take whatever the new data releases, and I am going to put together a figmental army that's gonna go out there and I'm gonna put all this out into the ether, right? And potentially these people may never even play that army, they may never even play those rules or that that change to your point, right? The the numbers say, and I know from us, right, how hard it is for us to get together and play, you know, uh a couple games with each other, right? They're playing a game of understanding the rules and being mad about the changing of the rules, or understanding the rules and trying to outwit everybody else who is trying to understand the rules. That actually is a game of in this community, it's a thing that happens.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

You're saying they're playing list hammer.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yeah, I don't have a name for it, but list hammer works a hundred percent. And I think that the reason why you get so much emotion wrapped around a data slate is it really there is no other way to establish whether or not your list in Listhammer is good or bad. There's no other way other than saying this thing is worse than it was before or better than it was before, and I think your emotions are really tied to one of those reactions to how your list is perceived. Does that I'm probably making zero sense, and I am totally thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

You're making a lot of sense, and actually the way, so I don't use New Recruit or some of the other apps, I use the GW one, but I can see what you're talking about of you know, they push the balanced data slate update to the app. You log into the app the first time, and if your list is non-compliant because it's invalid for rules or points reasons, you'll get a little yellow caution triangle that highlights over the name of your list. And you're almost describing the like because I think you're right. I think that we've talked about the concept of mental reps before. I think there's a lot of people who cherish the mental reps in the preparation side, and the I'm getting this ready and I think I'm cooking with something. And to your point, if they don't get a chance to actually physically play that thing and then log in on data slate and boom, the thing I was perfecting through my mental reps, yellow warning triangle, no longer valid, you're gonna get the visceral reaction. I could see that.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

But I'm not I'm not poking at it, right? I'm not I'm not saying that's bad. I'm saying that it's a thing. And I think that when we get these data slates, it's part of the reason there's so much churn for a while, right? Is because I think at a like a granular level, a lot of people are really playing list hammer, like first, then they're playing tabletop second. So you're not you're not getting the full experience of those rules and things like that. You're getting your gut kind of reaction, right? Check that for later, because that's gonna come up later on. Just a little Easter egg for everybody out there listening. Gut reaction. Um, but you're getting this like gut reaction to something that's that's not changing a game and play, not changing a tournament, but necessarily changing the list at hand and how it's perceived. And I think that the fact that these people, our people, play this list hammer so passionately is why you get so much churn when something like a data slate comes out.

Math Hammer

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Well, it I'll actually I'll I will yes and you, and this is not a concept I can claim as my own because you're you're backing into something that the guys at StatCheck talk about a lot. And so I I would yes and what you're saying of list hammer, math hammer, and then war hammer. And what I mean by that is you invest a lot of calories building the perfect list on your phone and spitballing and talking about it in whatever community you frequent online, and there's all sorts of tools. I don't know their names because I don't use them, but there's all sorts of tools you can use. You can just use a generic calculator to then go calculate your probabilities and the the average damage output that your list is going to do into different profiles. Because one of the things now that you say that, that I notice a lot, when I type up my battle reports, I'll get people commenting going, that thing that just happened there, I question it because that shouldn't happen. Like, well, that's great, but you weren't there watching me roll the dice, and there's a thing, like there's a lot of standard deviation in that. So I get it that Math Hammer says that that Catan shouldn't have made nine out of eleven four up involves, but it did.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Yeah. I I don't I don't know. Now I can't get this idea out of my head of like I see this all the time too, right? Like I read Reddit all the time, I listen to the forums and and uh you know follow things on Discords and stuff like that, and you see it all the time. You see it like hey, I'm putting this list together based on the new data slate, and this is what I'm gonna do, and this is what I'm gonna be. Well, what are you playing against? Will be the next well, I'm not yet playing against anything. I'm just trying to get prepared for the next time that I do play, and this, that, and the other. And like that's that's like the first reaction. I'm not saying it's a bad reaction, I'm just saying that's like list hammers kind of like your first reaction to these data slates, and it can generate some real interesting emotional stress, we'll call it. Um, you know, if you feel like your list is being punished, right? And then you get to the math hammer, right? And so, and I I tend to do this a lot too when we play, right? Like, this is this will be the one thing in a game when the two of us are playing, and I'm like, hey, wait a second, hold on. That that did how did that happen? Like, what what just happened? Like, how many times have I said that? Um and so then you get to that, right? But you're doing that on a one-sided reaction based off of the data slate, right? So you're going, okay, probability says I should be able to do X. Probability says that this unit, this um, this army should be able to accomplish these things. And now you're now you're trying, now you're without playing anything, without doing anything. Now you're setting up your win conditions, you're setting up, you know, how you want to play, you're setting up your theory for how that army lays out, and you know, what your strategy is gonna be based off of this this new change that just happened, right? You've now done all of that, and you have not seen that thing hit the table just yet at all. Unless you're like Eric and you play 7,000 armies and you play a game a night inside your your garage with yourself, you know, quickly turning into James McAvoy's character from the split movie.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Like it just I've got like 12 personalities living in my head that play one. Warhammer against each other, and they play list hammer and math hammer against each other, too. So I I'm like I'm resonating strongly with what you're saying because yeah, man, like I all right, so massive light bulb moment, and I'm gonna deviate a little bit from the agenda because we've hit the Eric hit makes a spreadsheet portion of our program. But like we have an agenda. I think you're just I think you're describing really, really well where a lot of the feels bads in the game come from. And what I mean by that is so I list hammer and I put together something, I put together a list that I'm very proud of, I'm very invested in to do a specific thing. And then I math hammer it out to try and get an idea of what it can do into different profiles. So, one, to your point, come data slate time, it's gonna feel bad when when that changes before I get a chance to use it in all the ways that I conceived when I was putting it together. That's just gonna be a feels bad thing. Yeah. But the other things that we've talked about in the past that that at least me personally I haven't been able to describe really well, do you want to know what else really feels bad? And we see this in the games that we play with how people react. Well, what happens other than losing? So your list your actual war hammer not going the way your list hammer planned. Yeah. The math on the table not matching the way that you math hammered. And I think actually, if I bring it back to the data slate, well, a lot of the negativity was around necrons. You want to know what I think, and this is kind of I'm thinking out loud, the aha moment you led me to. You want to know what the one of the biggest things that throws a monkey wrench into the gears of Math Hammer is a four-up involved with a feel-no pain behind it. Yeah. And that's where you get the visceral. I hate this because I took so much time and thought and energy and skill and prep in doing my list hammer and doing my math hammer, and you just came out here and rolled a bunch of four-ups followed by a bunch of five ups, and that doesn't take any skill at all, and you just completely blew up my plans. And you know, spoiler alert for my next battle plan, uh, battle report, that just happened to me because I just played Pantheon and Woe. That'll be published in the next day or two. That legit happened. That does feel bad because the ability to spike invulnerable saves or spike feel no pains throws everyone's math hammer out the door.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

I got one for you, and this is a spicy take.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Then when you add on to that an army that has mechanics where they can guarantee you at any time that that happens, and I play one of those armies because I play, you know, Imperial Guard, and you know, I can have a tank out there that essentially blanks damage, right? Yep. You can't math hammer for that, dude. You can do you can do all the math you want, and you can maybe take that. I don't know, maybe there's a percentage out there, and there's probably a bunch of people listening to this that can do math at a really higher rate than I can, which is fine. Um, but that's a large percentage that you're adding in to your game to be able to quantify on when that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, I I mean I got another one that I'll pick on myself a little bit here. Of so one of the common complaints of 10th edition, I'm not picking myself on this one because I don't think I've ever complained about this, is you know, oh, this was supposed to be the addition of less re-rolls, and yet there are re-rolls everywhere. I think we as a community go out and seek anything that has an ability to get re-rolls because that's a way of locking in your man your math hammer and guaranteeing that you're gonna get the output that you math hammered. Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Yeah. I mean, you know what? The cool part is, right? So you built you did your list hammer, you've done your math hammer, you get on, and and this is where I was going. Like you haven't played on the table yet. When you go to play on the table, and this just happened to me in the last time I played. Guess what? It's a dice game. Sometimes the dice gods, they they they frown upon your existence, which is how I felt the last time that I played for two entire turns, where if you could roll a one at the wrong time, I was rolling a one. And that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

I had one of those games in my LGS last weekend where I rolled five ones in a row with Mephiston on the critical turn. Like it was to the point where my opponent was apologizing to me because of how bad it was. Yeah, it it there are times where because to your point, and this isn't faulting anyone, but standard deviation is a thing, but it's not a uniform law. You're like the key word in there is very is deviation, not standard.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Oh you know what is a law? Murphy's law. And you can't you can't plan for that. And so there, so that's what I'm getting at, right? So so oftentimes, right? To bring it back to what we were talking about, oftentimes you see a lot of this list hammering and war or and and math hammering, and the the real time to take a look at something and put it on the table and kind of assess it is is actually after you've played it a couple times.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yep.

Slate Hammer

SPEAKER_02 28:00

And and I don't I truly don't think sometimes that that we allow our emotions to kind of settle down for a second, right? Take a seat, hold on. Let's see what this thing does on the table and let's see how it feels. Then if it blows up and it's really terrible and all the things, all the doom spiraling that you had going on in the back of your head takes place, like I'll doom spiral with you, right? If you're if you're over the age of 21, I'll go have a beer and we'll talk in misery. If not, I'll get you a nice uh I don't know, uh pre-sun. I don't know what the kids drink today. Um one of those, and we can have that talk. But a nice Dr. Pepper. Come on, Steve. Ah, there we go. Okay, all right. Put the plug in there for Dr. Pepper. Thank you. Um, yeah, so I I mean I just there's this aspect where I personally uh I'm not high and mighty and pious or any of that crap, so please don't take this as that, right? But I I truly actually try to not look at the data slate for a little while, um, just because I want the churn to kind of calm down. And if you take a step back and do this, because I didn't used to do this, and now I do. Take a step back and do this, and then see where things kind of flatten out. Because I I feel like what you get is this kind of big spike of emotions right after the data slate's released, and then it kind of starts coming down. And in my mind, the reason why I think that happens is because that's the time it takes to go through the here's my list hammer roll up, here's my math hammer, oh my god, I either got whacked or I'm doing really good. And then hey, I gotta start playing with this thing, and maybe I play a game or two, and I figure out what it is, and it starts to kind of settle out, and you start finding ways to work with it. That's that's that's how I I tend to think and deal with with these these data slates.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

I I've got a question on you, and it's another it I like this because you're really you've got me in my wonder brain, like thinking about about this kind of real time. Is there a data slate hammer? And what I mean by that is if you if you go back through YouTube archives to Auspex Tactics, Art of War, like the the big 40k channels, they start about a month out from the data slate publishing what are the win rates for every faction? What do we expect in the next data slate? What should each faction get in the next data slate? I think, in addition to everything that you're describing, that and I I will admit I am guilty of this a little bit of I'll have my own little mental list of here's my wish list of things that I think my faction should get at the next data slate based off of the win rates, and here are the factions that I think are OP based on the data that I'm hearing and seeing, most of which I never have firsthand experience with. But you'll get the like, oh, I went to stat check, and I saw that Necron's Pantheon of Woe has a 68% win rate, therefore they should get nerfed. I think there's a lot of that, you know, that kind of data slate hammering that goes on as well. And to your point, a lot of the reaction is like it reminds me, and I'm a big NFL fan of like you do all these mock drafts before the NFL draft, and then if your team doesn't pick the player you mocked for them, you get all upset.

unknown 31:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Yeah, or if you if you name your uh your your team Osequan UC and then your your your buddy who's also in the draft decides to take Saquon Barkley in the first round. I I I I don't know who that could have been, Eric.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Um that guy is a real jerk. He deserved to finish in last place in the fantasy league this year. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

No, I so sorry, folks. Um I think that there's this aspect too, and and and I'm not saying that like listen, I'm a big proponent for everybody's welcome in this community, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

I actually love the fact that there are people that just sit there and go, I wanna, I wanna look at this this, you know, data slate and come out with the newest, greatest thing. And like I'm gonna go tweak my and and I'm gonna get all excited about this data slate and get all riled up and love the anticipation of you know the Christmas like feeling of a new data slate coming out. Like, I think that's cool. It generates a lot of buzz in the community. All I'm saying is that data slates are very, very tied to the emotions of our Warhammer community, and we see a spike in those emotions every time a data slate comes out. So just assess it. That's all I'm saying. Is a is assess a no, be aware, right? That that this could emotionally affect you. So when you're going through that, think about the you know, where am I at in my stage of emotion, right? Um, what did we say the other day? Step into Dr. Steve's office, right? Here we go. So assess where you're at in that emotional stage, right? Am I am I just figuring out my list? Is that where I'm at and why this maybe is feeling the way that it feels? And then, you know, am I at the point where now I'm I'm putting the math together and I'm trying to understand that? And then ride ride that roller coaster out a little bit until you get to the point where you put it on the table. But wait to blow the world up until you've actually put it on the table. And if you're not ever gonna put it on the table, like these people that just play data, data, what'd you say? Data slate hammer? Yeah, um, slate hammer. I don't know. We gotta put a good name for that.

Dr Steve's Strategies for Dealing with Feels Bad

SPEAKER_00 34:24

I think there's slate hammer, which is you're trying to predict what you think the slate should be. And in fairness, pull and we'll pick on me for a lot of this, because I I will admit I do a lot of this. I just then take it to the logical place of I'll go play a practice game in my shop to see what it actually looks like on the table. And in part, that came out of I was feeling really bad when the only times that I would get to play was when we would get together to barn hammer or whatnot. And I'm not great at list hammering, I'm not great at math hammering. So my my thing I had built wouldn't do what I designed it to do. It would need some iteration, but we weren't playing at a frequent enough rate that I could iterate and get to a rev 2, rev 3, which is where I'm I'm really good at improving. But it so let's pick on me with these, because so like, yeah, slate hammer, that's when you try and predict what your faction needs. I I will admit, as a gray night player, like I've been doing a variant of that basically since they got a new codex, because that codex is bad, and they have gotten nothing in the past couple data slates. So, yeah, there's there's a letdown there. You're you're Dr. Steve, the feelings guy. How do you deal with let's step through this one at a time? How do you deal with the math or the anecdotal evidence that's out in the community says my faction is performing poorly, they are at the bottom of the win, the win rate totem pole. They're not very powerful, they they're probably not that fun to play because it's fun to be powerful, and I didn't get what I think I deserved at the data slate. How do you how do you deal with that? Because that there is a legit feels bad there that I don't fault people for.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Um actually caveat.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

I don't fault people for that unless they play Eldar, in which case you deserved it. But moving on. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

So that's not helpful. Um, that is not helpful advice from Eric, and um that should come out of the way. Cousin Josh, I got you back on this one. Um I think there's a couple things, right? So and there, you know, we have themes, right, and arcs to what we podcast about, right? And I think we touch on a couple of the ways that you can you can deal with this, in in my opinion. Um so one step back and look at the uh the the environment you're playing in, right? So I I'll pick on Necrons, right? Oh, they have a 67% win rate when you're going meta against meta against 6-7 me. Wow, you really do have kids. Um they have a this 68% win rate. Um, and you know, you're sitting here going, oh, I can't, I I you know, I can't beat the Necrons. They have a 68% win rate. Yeah. When it's at a tournament that's being totally tracked, and on top of that, you know, you're playing metalists against medalists against medalists, right? And so, you know, if you're playing in your barn like we do, and you know, you're playing against your friends, I don't put don't put any stock in that that percentage aspect, right? It it is it is just not reflective of what's going on with with you know potentially with your environment. So that's one. So I'm just saying be aware of your surroundings, be aware of where you're at. Maybe don't read into such of the hype that comes out with some of these things. But now a data slate. That's put that's all put it. That's a long episode for us to go down a big rabbit hole on.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah, put a pin in that one, Steve. That's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Keep going. The next thing, right, is you know, okay, this data slate came out. And you haven't played it, right? And so you're in your Cheerios because you think, my god, I just got whacked. Or you're really on Cloud Nine because you think you just got the new OP edition of whatever you're playing, right? Be honest when you play the first time about how you're feeling about the data slate and what it's done to your army with your opponent. We talk about this all the time. It's okay to sit there and go, hey, I'm really trying to figure out how this is gonna feel after this data slate. I don't think this is gonna go really well. I just want you to know that I'm thinking that this is gonna potentially be pretty bad. What you will probably get out of that is a game where you learn an awful lot about that army and that particular data slate. And the other thing is you give your opponent the ability to help you in that process. So it's okay to feel bad, it's okay to not like it, it's okay to think it's gonna suck. Just be transparent about that. And maybe don't go in saying it's gonna suck, because if you really think it's gonna suck that bad, go play something else. Go play something else, go try something else. And that's the third thing. Don't be afraid to go do something else. If the current meta, and I'm air quoting, nobody can see that but Eric, if the current meta is what just got whacked, go play something else. It's okay. It probably doesn't mean everything else with that faction is bad. It just means they're trying to push a change so that they can move the meta, keep the meta fresh, which is what we all kinda need, because that's how we keep this game going.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Yep. So alright, follow-on question, because I I'm digging what you're putting down, and that kind of addressed the Hey, what I expected to get out of the slate didn't happen in the changes that I think my faction needs, because it's not as good. What if you get what Chaos Space Marines got this time, which is a brand new detachment that looks like it's really, really strong, has a loophole that potentially is OP, and they changed it and nerfed it and closed it before I got a chance to play it.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

So you're saying that rules, that nobody is gonna call the rules police on you, they won't throw you in rules jail, and have a rules lawyer preside over whether or not you're guilty of not following the latest rules in the play that you're playing to have fun doing something with your friends. Is that what is that is that what I'm getting at here?

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Actually, it I I think this one is a legit of and I fall in the category of people who want to play tournament style without it being an official tournament, or sometimes I play in my LGS, I play in a league. So what I'm referring to is they released a new like Red Corsairs-themed renegade detachment where you basically got Oath of Moment, and everyone immediately went, Oh my goodness, this is gonna be outstanding on noise marines and plague marines, and I can soup them in because chaos space marines can pull in up to 500 points of the god-specific legions, and it was out for like three weeks, and then at this data slate, GW appended it with a verbiage that said, and oh, by the way, because thematically this is supposed to be renegades who don't worship the chaos gods, you can't bring in any of your god legion specific units, so you can't play noise marines or plague marines or rubric marines or berserkers in this detachment, at which point everyone's like, you know, again, you you closed the loophole of the thing that was gonna be highway to the danger zone or OP. So so hold on a second.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Hold on, hold on. So you're upset that you didn't get the curb stomp your opponent in a tournament with the thing that was gonna be uh potentially a loophole that you knew going into it was gonna get nerfed because it's potentially unfair.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

I mean, me personally, no, and you know I haven't played that detachment yet because I shot called that this was gonna happen and I wanted to wait till after the data slate.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

So you're asking me a question, and I'm I'm giving you an answer of take a step back and look at what you're saying. Oh man, I didn't get to crush my opponent with this thing that was so broken that they had to fix it within three weeks of releasing it. Boohoo, get a helmet. Life's hard. I'm sorry. I don't feel bad for that person. And I honestly, those feelings like I'm probably gonna get roasted over this. Comments, but I just I don't feel bad for that person who just all out didn't care about anything other than they were going to use something that was totally advantaged. That mother GW said this is so advantaged that we got to change it within three weeks. Which, truthfully, if there's something that they make a change on within three weeks, generally it's because they went, oh S. This is not good. Uh pull back the ranks, boys. We gotta fix this one. Everybody admit it. We sucked on this one. We released something that shouldn't be out there. Somebody didn't play test, somebody didn't do something. Jerry in in finance is now getting fired, even though he had nothing to do with it. Like, yeah, that's probably a bad thing. And to be honest with you, go play something else.

unknown 44:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Or, and this is actually why I think happened because I don't think it would have been Turbo OP. They just looked at it, they saw how the community was reacting, they found that they saw that the community found an interaction, and they went, Well, that's not how we intended this to work, and they clarified their intention.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

So you're telling me that our community, and you're gonna put a pin in this one, you're telling me that our community intentionally finds loopholes so that they can go exploit them before GW realizes, and they play outside of the intention of what GW wants in the rules. They play them as written.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

I mean that yes, there is a pittlepin in that there is a real I'm hitting on all of your. I think this is funny because I'm now leading you through all of the hot button discussions, and usually it's the other way around where you're egging me on and leading me into all of the oh, this is gonna annoy Eric, this is gonna get him passionate, this is gonna get him passionate. So I like that I get to put the shoe on the other foot.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

I don't know that I went into this conversation thinking that this was gonna happen. So I feel a little, I'm a little amped up. I'm riding my emotional roller coaster, as I was saying earlier. I do want to point out one thing, and if you got to this far listening in the podcast, you can be like, hey, Steve is kind of yelling at himself in some cases, and I am because I list hammered the minute that we started having this conversation because I went there and talked about me looking at the new Votan character, and I then proceeded to list hammer into why I don't think I'm gonna bring him. I don't even own him, I can't get him, right? So there's there's there's no point in me saying how I'm gonna play him because I don't know yet.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

All right, so Dr. Eric has Steve on the couch now. Talk me through how you handled that feelings of when you were list hammering, because I know you love your berserks, and I know you've been dying for someone to lead them to buff them up a little bit because they're not as good as they were in ninth edition. I know we're not talking about that, but that's a thing. How did you respond to the feels bad of the character release didn't match your list hammer expectations?

SPEAKER_02 47:17

So I mean the that is very much true, right? So I was very excited when I found out that they were gonna bring out a character, and the berserks are something that I I just I hate painting them, I hate putting them together, but I absolutely love playing with them, right? And I don't have many models on the board where I can say that that's how I feel about them.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Um I can see you side note when you're playing them, like when you're cracking off a charge with your berserks in your head, you're doing the like mini me attacking we noise.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

It's mini me, but it's with like Flight of the Valkyries in the background. Like that's how I see like that one guy who's got the hammer over top of his head and he's totally lunged forward. Like, he's my favorite, right? And I always put him, if you notice, in a charge, I always put him at the front because in my brain I'm going, oh yeah, he's a guy who's running in there and is just gonna mess something up with this hammer, right? I wanted them to have leadership because I do think that that's an aspect of what they need to be a better unit, right? I think that right now there's some disconnect on how to play with them. Um, and I've played multiple lists with them, and right now I my list, right? My list hammer, I feel like some coordination support for that unit would be really, really good. Now, that being said, he came out, he's got some interesting rules. I don't think he has anything that's like super like when I read his rules and his data sheet, I didn't look at it and go, Wow, this is really, really awesome. So I think that was the first thing that I had to process was eh, I don't there's nothing here that I think is really, really awesome. The other aspect was his cost was a little bit higher than I expected cost to be. And I don't think that across the board his cost kind of fit where I had other types of that unit um costed. So there was a little bit of a hey, this data sheet didn't really pan out the way I wanted it to, and on top of that, I think he cost a little too much, and so processing those things in my list hammer, I'm going, hmm, well, probably I won't take him in a list. If now here's where it gets here's where it gets fun, folks, stay with me. If I'm playing in a competitive game, now here's that flip side, right? Wait a week, let the roller coaster ride out, don't get all hot in the collar. I haven't played it on the table yet. So if I have a chance to say, get on TTS with Eric and play. Play with cousin Josh in a Barnhammer experience, play with other Josh in a Barnhammer experience, something along those lines. I may take him. Because I don't know. Right? So so I'm not gonna get all upset and ticked off like Reddit Votan is right now and cry about how the towel get everything and we get nothing, which is kind of actually really funny if you think about that in general. Um I'm not gonna do that because I don't know yet, right? My math says, my math hammer now says, I will take another set of berserks with that that many more attacks and that much more presence and that much more size on the thing in a competitive game. That's what my math hammer says. It says, Don't take him, take those things, right? Yep. But depending on my environment, so again, knowing back to knowing where your environment is before you freak out, right? If I'm playing in a casual game, I do want to know what he's gonna do. You know what? It just might be one of those things where on paper it doesn't look all that great, but when you put it together, the cohesiveness and the size of the unit and all those different intricacies that come into playing the game on the board, plus the dice, right? So looking at the probability of him hitting versus the probability of the berserks, which we all know can whiff, right? Maybe that changes things. I don't know. So that's in my opinion, that's how I handle it. I'm not telling anybody that that's how they have to handle it, but I do think that it helps me, and I you guys know me by now, right? We have what 20-some episodes of you knowing me at this point. I'm a very emotional person, very tied to my identity within my factions and all that fun stuff that we've talked about over and over and over again. But that's one way that I can help control that I don't get over-emotional about something to the point where I'm just doom spiraling over it. Because you gotta also ask yourself then how much fun are you having if you're just doom spiraling about your faction and your army that you love so much? That's not cool. Like, you want to have fun, you want to go play, go play, like it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Yep. Well, it all right, it's the last question then, because you've covered really well slate hammer to list hammer, list hammer to math hammer, and I actually think this is one, you know, we've talked about this a little bit in the past. It's one that you do best of everyone in our group, and you refer to it as like the Chris Tucker from Rush Hour, which one of y'all kicked me, which is math hammer meets actual war hammer. What happens when you're playing a game and something happens that completely deviates from your math hammer expectations?

SPEAKER_02 53:21

It's a feel, right? I know everybody on that's listening to this, Eric. I know you and I have had this conversation in the past. It is a feeling you get when you're playing and it's just like, man, that shouldn't have happened, right? Like, like, how how did you delete that entire unit? Or how did you get there? How is that possible? How did you slingshot yourself out of a rhino and then end up on my doorstep like 24 inches away? How did that happen, right? My math didn't account for that. Yep. It's okay to say, hey, I don't can you walk me through how that happened? Because I don't understand it. Now, where you teeter on the line there, sometimes you're emotional about it because you just watched your champion get yeet it off the board, and he may or may not be one of your favorite characters. So emotionally, you gotta check yourself a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Um, but come on, Steve. It's not that hard to watch your favorite model in your favorite army just get happy Gilmore by my chaos lord off the board.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

This is a true story. There is still a box, a cardboard box, that I went, got a screw gun, got a screw, screwed it into the wall, wrote atop of it the box of shame, and the champion to this day is still sitting in the box of shame as we speak. And this is like months ago. To the point where my wife is like, Are we gonna take that down? And I'm like, No, he has not served his penance yet. He knows what he did. I want him to continue to know how ashamed I am of him. But anyway, so yeah, I I I think that there's an aspect of the best way to handle that situation is is to be quite honest, right? Because you're handling the emotion of crap, I wasn't expecting that. I wasn't expecting to have to deal with this. Oh my god, you just changed my math. Oh my god, now what do I do? My whole tactic could potentially shift something along this line. Slow it down. Ask. Because in that, here's what I learned, right? Don't do that again. Don't put yourself in the position where Eric can slingshot his Smash Captain into everything. Ding dong. Just don't do that. And you know what, Eric? You haven't done that to me since.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yeah, it it's so you're describing the other end of the what historically has been a massive trigger for me. And you you rightfully poke me about it, which is the so I like to think I'm okay when I'm on the receiving end of those deviations. And in the past, you've made the comment that I I take being on the losing end of those things better than the average bear. But what will drive me instantly angry is if I make a good play that you didn't account for in your math hammer, and as a part of your reaction, you tell me my thing is OP, I'm gonna be instantly angry at you.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

Yeah, there's like this gut reaction that like it was a gotcha, right? All the time, right? And I I think this is this is very much a a reaction to math hammer, right? Is oh that's a gotcha. You gotcha'd me. Yeah. No. Your math said that that shouldn't have happened. The probability changed your math. The occurrence of it happening wasn't accounted for. That's a gut feeling that something bad happened. It's okay for you to ask for cler clarity on it, but that doesn't that just because your math says it shouldn't happen doesn't mean it did. And it also doesn't mean that your opponent was negatively coming at you with something that they hid from you. Now, with that being said, there is a flip side to this because inside that math, I do think that there's a lot of people that make it to the math hammer step of their emotional roller coaster of data slating. Yep, they make it to that math hammer step and then they purposely look for all the ways they can use math hammer against everyone. And there is a point in there where you could cross the line of gotchas.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

Yeah, I will tell you part of my strategy in the kind of armies I like to play is I will deliberately look for ways to build deviations into other people's math hammering. And it's not through gotchas or anything, but I will like when I play Necrons, and it's not unique to me, it's I think it's where every Necron player is these days. Like we had a Necron Warrior list that we called BDE for a while, where I deliberately set it up, and cousin Josh would play it of it. Had the 20-man warrior blob that got buffed up with a four-up involunt, a five up feel, no pain or a six-up feel, no pain, had crypto throws involved, had an overlord for a bunch of free stratagems. Like it had all sorts of levers he could pull to manipulate the math hammer of whoever was attacking him to throw off their calculations. Um, when you know, the the Smash Captain archetype that I like to play across several armies. There's a Blood Angels variant of it that I play in my LGS League. I give him the the rage-fueled warrior enhancement where once per game I can give him sustained three. That gives me a chance to go fishing for just a massive amount of hits to completely throw off the defensive math that the other person put together. So I like I played a game the other day, I blew a hecaton off the board with one solo guy. So I I deliberately try and build spikes into my math hammer. And to your point, if I don't disclose that, I'm I'm not being ethical and I'm being too sneaky and I'm gotching. But there also is a line I ride there of there's a difference between knowing I can spike that and then seeing and being on the experiential end of it when I do spike it.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

That's when like it's gonna happen. Right? You're not gonna be perfect all the time, right? If you were, you probably wouldn't play this game because it wouldn't be any fun. Right? You part of this game isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, hold on. I play Emperor's Children. We are always perfect. That is what makes it fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

How dare you? I'm telling you right now, that's not accurate. So but I mean, that's that's just that's part of the game. That's what makes it so fun, is it's so big and so complex that it's really it it's extremely difficult to be perfect at this game. And I would I'll put out there that I don't think that I've ever seen somebody play a perfect game. I just don't think I've seen it. And I watch a lot of tournaments, so do you. It's just there are things that could have been more optimal in lots of different situations, and it's just the it's the the ebb and flow of the game. With that being said, like it's gonna happen. You're gonna run into these things where it's gonna feel like they spiked kind of the math the wrong way, right? Or the dice didn't go in your direction. My my suggestion in those situations is just step back, take a look at it, ask for clarity if you didn't understand something, but try to take away from it. Hey, this just happened. Did I put myself in a place where I shouldn't have been? Did I accidentally put my guy touching that wall to allow Eric to charge into it when I should have been one inch from the wall? Right? Those types of things, right? I guarantee you, if you look at that as a way to get better, a way to learn, a way to experience the game and take away that experience so that you can be better the next time, it will cut down on the amount of emotion that you have in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Yeah, so it it the the last put a pin in something for a future episode because we're cooking today is how to deal with mistakes, because to your point, they're always gonna happen. Like it, I I have never seen a perfect throughput from list hammer to math hammer to war hammer. Like there's gonna be deviations, there's gonna be variables, there's gonna be mistakes that just you as a player make where it doesn't go all according to plan. And I think there's a really good episode there to talk about how to deal with all those kind of mistakes. Because one of the ones we haven't touched on, and I'll I'll drop it here, and we can delve deeper in that that was a Votan joke. We can delve deeper in future episode is Diggy Diggy hole. What happens if you made a mistake in your interpretation of the rules when you were list and math hammering that gets pointed out once you get to the table?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

Yeah, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

And it's not because you're cheating, it's because you're a human being.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Especially if you're a dyslexic human being who really struggles at reading the rules.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:05

It's they're dense rules and they're not always well written. So it I don't know. This has been really cool. We're just over an hour. I I got a ton out of this. I got notes of like five different things we can do as an off-branch of this. But I really, really love, and we did not come up with this ahead of time. Like Steve spitballed it, and then I had to throw it on mute because my brain started to melt out of my ears when he did the list hammer, math hammer, war hammer. Like that is that's really impactful for me of how to think about things. And I think, you know, going forward, yeah, to move to the housekeeping and that outro section of this, you know, one going forward, I think I want to explore that and some of the other things we said to put a pin in in a couple of future episodes, because I think there's a lot of goodness that you hit on as going through that analogy and all the different feelings and experiences that can be produced as a result.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

I did not realize that I was gonna be in the hot seat today. I really thought it was gonna be you. Careful, buddy. You're good in the hot seat. Yeah, I don't know. That's wild. So I I don't know. My big takeaway from all this is like I love how passionate this community is about rules and little, you know, data sheets and numbers and how things put together. I mean, it's really it's one of the things that I love the most about about the game is just how much there is that people can attune to, right? It's just when you're doing that, do it responsibly, right? Think about think about it, right? Think about your actions, think about what you're doing. Try to get the most out of the game so that it continues to be fun for you. Don't let it don't let it overrule your emotions to the point where um something like a data slate can take away the fun for the game, not just for you, but for others too, right? So like we all like to go out there and tell everybody that we you know we know something better. I mean, heck, we have a podcast, right? Um we we all like to go out there and and talk about you know our feelings, really, which is what all this boils down to. Um we all like to share those in the way that that we feel confident and comfortable doing so. But just be aware that when you do that, like it's a game and it's supposed to be fun. And yes, things might not be so slanted in your way or something might feel a little off, but just give us some time, ride that roller coaster out a little bit. And and if you're really feeling away about it, play it. Play it first, get some time on a table, call a buddy, have them come over, work your way through it. I I guarantee you if you spend some time doing that and get out of just list hammering and and and math hammering and actually. get to war hammering. Um I think that it's gonna it it's gonna make either it be a little bit more clear and you have a little more understanding of why this is or feels the way it does. Um and a less you know guttural reaction of you know whatever that emotion is whether it be high or low.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

Oh man all right I'm breaking a promise because you just gave me another idea for something to put a pin in which is when you are putting it on the table and war hammering and this is something I think everyone takes for granted when they are list and math hammering experiment with different terrain layouts. There's three major systems for how to lay out your terrain there's GW there's UKTC and there's WTC and all of them come with their own different challenges. The the what I've heard and experienced because I've played a little bit on all three I've played mostly GW terrain is GW terrain is the best for shooting armies WTC is the best for melee armies and UKTC is somewhere in between experiment with that to see if there are changes to the terrain again we're talking probably more friendly games than anything else but changes to the terrain that you can make with your buddies that will help your list work better because the other thing that isn't oh you know clear when we look at all these statistics on win rate and everything else is folks are playing on different terrain and different armies work differently on different formats of terrain.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

I can tell you as a Blood Angels player Blood Angels works really well on WTC terrain where there's a lot of places to stage and hide before I charge you there are some GW layouts where Blood Angels are unplayable against a shooting army and so experiment you know to your one of your favorite subjects Steve terrain experiment with that as well and and if there are ways to make your list work with different terrain layouts I think it all comes down to there's probably a way to play this where you can have your cake and maybe eat it too and yes to the tournament folks that might not always apply to you right so I can understand where some feelings get wrapped around things like the data slate the way that they do. But still give it a try right see how it fits put the time in on the table put the time in on the reps and and then and then formulate your plot and I think that it it you'll be on the downside of that roller coaster and it it'll help you through some of that that ramp up that you're feeling from an emotional perspective.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:47

Yeah 100% so I don't know man dude you're good in the hot seat like we we we may have to put you in there more often you're good in this spot.

Wrap Up and Conclusions

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

Well maybe it's also I you know did spend a week sitting on the beach drinking my ties and you know watching the ocean and I had plenty of time with my inner thoughts which is scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

So that there's a good kind of how couple of housekeeping things there to address and we don't do this often but so we Steve and I have been talking now that we have a decent amount of episodes out there of the frequency at which we publish day jobs are a thing family life is a thing we're entering vacation season you may see going forward us experimenting with toggling down to a once every other week publishing schedule it's not because we don't love doing this but it we like you just said really eloquently Steve there's an aspect of if we both collectively have time to think on this and to set the episode up longer and we're not just off the cuff trying to rocket something out just to get content out because we got to do a show today. I think we both feel like we put out a better product. So we're gonna experiment with that a little bit but one of the things that we may be doing as a result is we're also looking into can we set up other ways for for folks who listen to this to interact with us. There's the ability to make comments on our blog where I publish you know once a week or so we have an Instagram bear with us a couple of middle aged men with technology we're trying to set up a Discord server. So we're we're gonna be experimenting with the the way that we interact going forward and trying to find the right publishing schedule that balances quality with quantity and frequency.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:40

So if you see some variety there it's it's just us trying to figure out what works best and allows us to put out the the highest quality content yeah I think we we absolutely love doing this it's it's a lot of fun we love the interaction um that we get and you know hoping that maybe we can spurn more through through good conversation good content so you know I think it's all good things it's progress it's it's excitement so you know I I we'll see how it goes um again we're we're gonna experiment a little bit and figure figure out what works best for us so with that being said I I think Eric I think we we've got this one I feel like I've been welcomed back from vacation I'm excited so uh yeah I look forward to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

Yeah I'm I'm looking forward to it as well good night everyone take care everyone