28 - No More "And Then....."

In this episode of the "Grown Men Playing With Toys" podcast, Erik and Steve do what grown men do best — argue about made-up words on plastic soldiers and ask the question no Warhammer 40K content creator has been serious enough to tackle: are the game's keywords and abilities actually fun?

The guys work their way through the most common keywords and special abilities in the game and rate them on pure enjoyment, covering things like:

• Does the ability create interesting decisions or memorable moments?
• Is it fun to use, fun to play against, or neither?
• Does it add to the drama of the game or just make your brain hurt?

Whether it's the satisfaction of calling the Waaagh! or the soul-crushing experience of watching your opponent Reactive Move out of Charge range, the guys break it all down with the seriousness the topic absolutely deserves.

The full Tier List can be found HERE.

Check out our other content:

https://gmpwt.blog/

https://www.youtube.com/@GrownMenPlayingWithToys

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Have you been sitting on that for like a couple of days? Like I cannot wait till I say this word because it's gonna freak him out.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

I resemble that remark.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Welcome to the Grumman Play with Toys Podcast. They said we're too old. We said hold our dice. Where are your hosts? Eric and uh Steve. Eric, how are we feeling today?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

We're feeling verbose. What?

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Come on, man. Look, I've had a long day at work. You've had a long day at work. I'm like, this stupid PC is making me want to buy a Mac. Like, I mean, you're gonna pull out a word like verbose. That's how we're starting the show tonight.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

It's been two weeks since our last episode. That's a lot of time for me to research fancy ways to express my feelings, which is what you're always encouraging me to do. So, yeah, we're feeling verbose.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Honestly, have you been sitting on that for like a couple days? Like, I cannot wait till I say this word because it's gonna freak him out.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I resemble that remark.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

All right, Mr. Verbose. Why are we feeling so verbose today?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Well, because we're going back to our tier list game show format, and it's around keywords and key abilities. And because we're talking about words, I'm feeling verbose because we're gonna talk about way too many of them, and we're probably gonna spend way too much time talking about these words and abilities.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

You were gonna start today with some sort of crazy word. Verbose was not even remotely in the running. That's pretty good. All right, all right.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah, new record. I broke you on the intro.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

I I was laughing starting the show tonight because it's just I don't know. If you guys can't hear, um, I'm on microphone number three at this point. Uh, so you know, we had a little technical difficulties to start. I think that the uh I think the world is telling us that we shouldn't take two weeks off from doing this. Um, that that we really do need to go back to our weekly cadence because we just we just shifted, I don't know, the we shifted karma and it got it got me back starting this one.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

So yeah, let's pretend it's the universe in karma and that you didn't call me in the middle of the day today and say I've been in a bad mood all week because it's been two weeks since we podcasted.

Tier List Rules

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Yeah, so we tried the two-week thing, and uh I'm not thinking that's working out. I think there's a lot of stuff we gotta go over, and I gotta, I gotta, I gotta, I just gotta get it out, man. There's a lot of things. So, all right. So let's get serious. Let's get serious now, okay? Mr. Game Show host, can you set the rules of the game? Can you tell the folks at home how we're gonna play today?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yep. So I I went through and I pulled a lot of of the most popular abilities or keywords that send tend to drive things to be good in the game, or that tend to get played when you're playing quote unquote competitively. And I created a tier list in true drone men playing with toys fashion that has differently named tiers. And what I figured we'd do is we'll spend the next hour going through as many of them as we can. I'll read them off, we'll talk about them a little bit, and you'll get final say on what tier we put them in. And I I may bicker with you, but you know, you get final say on where we put them because we're not rating how good they are, we're rating how fun and interactive they are.

unknown 4:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Alright, so let's put me on the spot a little bit. So, okay, so we're gonna take keywords and abilities, and I get to rank them on how much fun can we define that? So when we say how much fun they are, uh I guess you want the whole reaction. You don't want to define that, do you? You you want to you okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

So I'll use three cat three ways to classify fun. I think it's funny you are the one requesting a spreadsheet now. First one is does the ability create interesting in-game decisions or memorable moments that you can talk about afterwards? Second criteria, is it fun to use, fun to play against, and or neither of the the above? And last one, does it add to the drama of the game, or are you just playing it because it's the correct way to win? Or to prove how smart you are.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

What is our tier list?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

I thought you would never ask. Alright, here we come. So um you and folks are might hear a little bit of clicking. I should be sharing my screen with you now. Alright, so I will read them top to bottom. This is a typical S to D tier list. So in S tier and bonus points if you can guess the references for all of these. Did we just become best friends? We just do you want to do karate in a garage? Yep. A tier. Are you not entertained?

unknown 6:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

B tier, and this is one I actually find that I do sometimes when I'm like in a crunch spot in a game and looking through the codex, hoping that there's something I can use to get me out of the pickle that I'm in. Talk to me, goose.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

So low-key, I think that's what the kids say today. Low-key. Low-key, um, that is probably the thing I say the most. Like, if I had like an 80s film, 80s, 90s film, like catchphrase, talk to me, goose is probably the thing I say the most. Because I think we've even said it here on the podcast, like, Top Gun is absolutely my favorite movie, hands down.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

So that means I've got it in the right spot because this is where the most frequently used B tier. Yep. There, this is just standard playing 40k. This is where these things belong. All right, C tier. And now we're starting to get into the things that I would say cause a negative experience. And this is a reference to one of my favorite pop culture words. You underestimate my power delivered with Anakin Skywalker's voice. And then the last one, D tier. No more and then.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Did you just pull a dude where's my car reference?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Maybe.

Blast

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Alright, fair enough. Okay, so the rules are set. Alright, so we're gonna go over abilities, we're gonna go over keywords, and then I have to layer them in. Um, so I'll give you a chance to try and influence my opinion here. Um, but I think I'm I'm I already am looking at this and feel like I'm very much gonna have a very strong opinion on a lot of these. So I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Again. All right. So we'll jump right into it. And we'll start, we'll start not doing anything that's super exciting. Blast. So blast is on guns, ranged attacks. If you're shooting something that has more than five models in it, you get one extra attack per unit with that keyword. If it's more than ten, you get two, and and and for every increment of five models in the unit. It's a way to show that the the weapon is doing blast damage because it's meant to shoot at crowds.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

So blast is like kind of vanilla, right? It's a good one to start with. It's about it it's establishing the baseline because I think blast is a cool part of the game, period, right? I think for things like you know, from an immersion perspective, right? You have a type of weapon that's got a scatter type aspect to it where you're meaning to hit more than one um, you know, type of type of concept. Yeah, I think I think blast is right down the middle. It's a talk to me goose. It's not a it's something that I do think, I think it just has a spot in the game. It's meant to be there. It's it it's fun. Um, you know, it's a way also to balance. Um, I think it's a way to to help um with you know type armies um to balance their their effectiveness. Um, so I don't know. Blast is kind of that's an easy one. Come on, that's that one's not hard. That's that's easy, but could rip the band aid off.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yeah, we're starting to easy low-key, and this would probably push it to being a little bit overpowered. I would love to see a version of Blast that you can do in melee just so that I can have Angron be like Sauron from the the intro, I think, of the second movie in The Lord of the Rings, where he's sweeping and you just see bodies flying back from the front lines of armies. It probably would be overpowered, but every time I play Angron, I want that.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

You do have the sweep mechanic, right? You kind of have like the strike versus sweep type melee.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

But like I just want to be able to put Angron into a 20-man of Cadians and just feel like he you know babe roots the entire squad off the table.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

I don't think Cadians ever do to you. I want to see Angron do that to a bunch of Necrons. That would be amazing. Yeah, yeah. Reanimate from this. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

That one applies too. Actually, so let's let's use that as, and I gotta find it here, but reanimation and heal mechanics. So pretty straightforward. I lumped them together. It's things like Necron's reanimation is the most obvious one. When you're playing Space Marines and you put it in an apothecary and he can bring guys back, that's another one. I know orcs have a version of this in Green Tide. You have a one with your Votan where your broke your iron master can heal a vehicle that's nearby. So all of those I get to bring back wounds from the things you just damage type mechanics.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

So I am really on the middle ground with this one because I I think it does add fun to the game. But I've also been on the other side where it's like, come on! Like, are you serious? And like, while that's also fun because it does add drama to it, when you're on turn four and the necrons just decide, you know what, I'm gonna just be back to full health, and you just spent the last three turns strategically melting them away as best you could, it it can be infuriating. Um, so I'm gonna put it, it can go both ways, so it has to go in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yep. All right, so above or below blast.

unknown 12:19

Above blast.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

All right. I I'm with you. I actually I if it were me, I would put this in are you not entertained. I like these mechanics, I think they're used appropriately, but I also play Necrons, so I'm biased on this one. I don't know that I get to have a fair vote.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

I'll be honest, I was going back and forth of whether or not to put it in Are You Not Entertained. Um, but I I think that I think I just think that there there is times where it is a little bit and I'll even pick on the Votar, right? Um healing a hecaton is kind of like not fair in some cases. Um or oh wait a second, because I might have just slammed it myself. So does blanking so let's use that.

Damage Blanking

SPEAKER_01 13:10

I I've got that one. You ready? That one's on the hopper. Let's transition. I can't read those, so I'm not sure. Nope, you're good. Here comes a spicy one, you ready? Blanking mechanics, either blanking damage or things that allow me to cancel your ability to do something.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

I'm coming off the top rope. I think that that is the silliest thing in this game. I think that it it is tailor-made to make the other person feel immediately something.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Enraged.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah, absolutely. And and to be honest, it's never like it comes up with like, oh, I'm gonna blank, you know, this pistol, you know, for maybe one damage. Nope, it's always like, you know what? Yeah, you can't you can't use this super Uber attack that you've been saving up for this whole time. And I get the I get the pushback from people that are gonna be like, oh well, you have to play around that and you gotta think through that, and you know, that's what makes it really hard and changes the strategy. I've said this from the very beginning on this podcast. I hate things that cause you not to be able to have an interaction with the other player, and that is a hundred percent what blanking does.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah, I I mean I'm with you on this. I probably don't feel as strongly as you, but I've got it in the same ballpark of like you said, it always seems to come up, and I understand why it's quote unquote the right play, but it always seems to come up with like a Steve finally gets a hit in a wound through with his Hecaton Landforts rail gun. Oops, I'm gonna blank this damage now, and like you said, it just generates that visceral come on type reaction. You're like, my thing finally did its thing, and you just get to pull something out of your prison pocket and say that this didn't happen, not okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

I'm gonna take shots at myself here, right? Robodorns have the ability to blank damage, right? I honestly think that that is just a ridiculous mechanic and uh a little unfair when you're playing. And I play them, but it's just not I can understand something hitting you and bouncing off, right? If you're if we're talking about immersion in the game, like uh a rocket, a missile, gunfire hits you, you roll well enough to say, hey, my armor was thick enough to block that.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Preach.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Good. Like, I'm all for that, right? But you could roll your butt off, everything goes right, and you're like, nah. Yeah, that's that's just I don't know. No more and then. No, I think that that's a I just think that it's not a fun thing in the game. Blanking causes frustration for your opponent in a way that I think is unhealthy.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yep, I'm what they're I'm right there with you. All right, let's go to the opposite end of the spectrum, and I'm deliberately baiting you on the last two. Deadly demise.

Deadly Demise

SPEAKER_02 16:38

I feel like you know what you're picking next, and I kind of feel like you've set me up a little.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah, deadly demise. So things exploding when they get killed.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

I mean, it's it's one of the best things in the game. I I could have the coolest unit on the table, and if it has deadly demise, when you kill it, I could be sad that you killed it. But secretly, I am hoping that I roll a six. Like, I am hoping that that thing blows up. And when it blows up, I don't care what's around it. I don't care if it's mine, I don't care if it's yours. I wish it could be terrain, because that would be cool if you could blow up terrain too. Like, I want everything to blow up. I mean, your son and I played an entire game where we just gave everything regardless of what it was, Deadly Demise, just because we wanted to shout, does it blow up? Yes, it does, and it's awesome. So I I think that yes, it could suck in the moment because you know, hey, you just worked really hard to kill that thing. Maybe you did it in melee. Oh, it popped a six, and it's gonna wipe your guys out, and you're gonna take some damage too. But I I I don't know, man. I would I would press to say that it's probably pretty hard to find somebody that doesn't laugh when the other person's like, I'm six. It's just it's funny, and it I I think it brings levity to the game and it brings an experience with it. So I I think that that is S tier all the way. It's one of my favorite mechanics.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

So you and Deadly Demise are best friends.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Absolutely. That one might win, just so you know. I'm I'm sorry I'm giving the rest of the thing away, but that that might win.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

I mean, one of our favorite stories from Barnhammer is you and my son played Crusher Stampede Tiernits together that has a stratagem to auto-blow things up. And you were I forgot who you're playing against, but you're playing against orcs that had a vehicle heavy lineup, and like I went to go out and get something to eat or go to the bathroom or something, and I came back to the barn, and everyone is on the floor. And I was like, what happened? Like, well, the Norn died, and we used the stratagem to auto-blow it up, and then it took the battle wagon with it, so they used Kareen to move the battle wagon up because then it exploded, and then when it exploded, it took out this other bug, and we rolled a six on its explosion, and it it took out the truck, and now we're all upset because the truck rolled a five.

Advance / Fall Back and Do Stuff

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yeah, it was the biggest chain reaction of Deadly Demise that you ever saw, and it was amazing, and it was fun. So I I I absolutely love the mechanic. I think it's top tier. Alright.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Let's pick uh let's pick one of my favorites, and we'll lump them together, even though they are two two tiles here. Advance and do things and fall back and do things. So advance and charge, advance and shoot, fall back and charge, fall back and shoot.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

I know you want to lump them together, but I don't want to lump them together.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Okay. I I'm fine if you want to fall back separate.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Fall back and shoot. I'm gonna say is talk to me, goose, and I think that's middle tier. And the reason is I think it it helps with the flow of the game. I think it makes things a little bit more fun. If you just have something that's stuck in the middle of the game and it doesn't have any aspect to to do something, that that's kind of it's just not fun for either side, really. I can understand why people are like, oh, well, if you if you're doing fall back and shoot, you're getting an advantage when you should be taking a disadvantage because you fell back. Okay, but normally you don't just get that for free, like you have to spend something to do it, um, you know, and you have to go through the the the mechanics of it, right? Advancing charge and shoot the fact that you're advancing and then you're charging still and able to shoot, I just feel like there's a there's just too many things there, right? It's like and and and and and like when you start going and and and and and you're you're you're creating a situation that is going to be not good, right? Um I'm looking at you, Katan. Um, but anyway.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

You mean the advance and charge nightbringer is is not good for the game?

SPEAKER_02 21:30

No, I think it is it's not no more am. I think that advanced charge and shoot is you're you know you're underestimating my power. I think that that's and in an aspect it's it's yeah, it's not it's I don't think it's a good mechanic personally. I don't think it's the worst mechanic in the game, but I don't think it's a good one. It's not a fun one.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I can understand this is one where we will disagree, but I think part of Of my disagreement is that the armies that I tend to like to play, which are more melee based, this is required to play the game.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

So we'll see what happens in 11th. Haha, everybody's excited, right?

SPEAKER_04 22:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Or not excited. I don't know. Come on, community, step it up. Um, but anyway, um, I think in current edition, I think that melee armies can can can be a little bit on the uh tweaked and twerked side. So from that perspective, I I think that there's I don't know, maybe this is a little slated because of the way that current edition is, that I think that this one just I don't know. Doesn't I would say that it's not the most fun one to play against.

Re-Rolls

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah, that's fair. Alright, so we'll keep going. Um I mean it we'll just it this is bait, but we'll pick the one that everyone likes to pick on when they go back to you know the launch of 10th edition and what GW said about it. Rerolls.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

I think that see this one's tough because I think it hits on a bunch of different things.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

I'm I'm not a huge fan of having too many re-rolls. I think this one goes into the you're underestimating my power. It's not the lowest mechanic, but I think that the I think there's just too many re-rolls. And it's it crowds the game, it makes the game take longer, um, it takes some of the it takes some of the I don't know how to even say this. It's it just it takes some of the playability out of the game because it's like okay, I rolled the dice, but I get to restack them and re-roll them again. And if you're doing this every time and you're doing it every turn and you're stacking it on multiple units, like it just kinda is like, okay, come on, can we just get did I die or didn't I die? Or did I hit you or didn't I hit you? You know, it's just it's one of those things that again takes the interaction away from the other player, so that's why I would say, yeah, I would say that that's a it's a it's a not a feels good, not a super fun aspect of it.

Added Resource Abilities

SPEAKER_01 24:36

I'm with you on that one. It slows down the game and it it just creates these dynamics where you get the all of the sudden if you have it on a data sheet, if you have it in a detachment, that becomes the correct choice. And it becomes very, very difficult to balance. So I'm with you on that one. Alright. Um all right, we'll pick another spicy one. Added resource mechanics, things like yield points. Uh, back when Thousand Suns used to get cabal points. Um I don't know that we want to get into fate dice because that one was very toxic. Miracle dice is another good example. Um the the added mechanics, kind of bean counting type things, spend tokens that some armies get that other armies don't get.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

I'm gonna put these in and no more in that.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

And it's it's because I again I'm I'm gonna say this multiple times tonight. It takes away from it's like blanking. It's no difference, right? If you just have a thing sitting in your pocket where you can go, nope, that didn't happen. Here's how here's how I'm gonna explain it. Explain to me what in the lure, right? What in the idea, the fantasy of us playing this game? Explain to me what in that is would cause you to go, um, yeah, that that that that thing just doesn't go through, or or nope, that thing just doesn't happen, right? So, like, you know, sisters have theirs, which are like a little more funnier, uh, because you have to sacrifice like a a a baby to do it. Um, but like the Eldar spate dice, right? Like they can't figure out how to fix that mechanic, to be honest with you. And it just causes so much frustration and angst from players, whether for or against, that it's not a fun mechanic. It does it, it's just it's not fun to play against. You can do everything right and it doesn't matter, and that's not fun. That's that's just I don't know, it's not fun when we play the game.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Yeah, it I I'm with you on it. I if they had a you need to accept a downside to gain the upside, I'm all for this. And it's not the exact same, but like to me, the gold standard for army rules, it and I'm biased, is Chaos Space Marines Dark Packs. Because you gotta roll some dice, you're gonna get the benefits regardless, but you might take some damage as a result. And so there's there's a hey, you get the you get some power, but there's a downside that you might have to accept. So there's some trade-offs you have to make, and it gets real dicey towards the end of the game when it's like, oh, I've got this Vindicator tank on three wounds, I really want to buff it up to take out something, but uh, if I fail my dark packs and then I roll a five or a six for my damage, I could kill myself before I have to before I get to activate. Like it it creates friction in the game, which I I enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Well, so I'll give you a good example of what you just said, and I 100% agree with you. I think that that's that's that's reality, right? No, I'm not picking on Eldar, but they do have the easiest one to kind of talk to. Um so if they can just be like, you know what, this one's an auto six that I can use on whatever I want to use it on, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

That well there's no option for what you're gonna use that on. You're gonna you're gonna just hold on to this thing that is gonna be no matter what an optimum aspect that you're gonna use that to either get rid of or be for, right? So you're taking strategy away from the other opponent, and you're you're taking an interaction away because they can't plan for that. They they can't, right? You can't have that in your strategy, like, oh, I I shouldn't do this because I know he's sitting on a six, or oh, I can't go there because you know he could auto-charge me there with a we'll just make one of those six, right? Like, you know, whatever, right? It's it's just not a good mechanic. And uh to your point, if it was okay, you use this six, but I don't know, now you're minus one to to I don't know, wound or something like that. I don't know. Minus one to something, right? It it there's a disadvantage to it, and the way that I think that they fix this on other things throughout the game is things like hazardous, right? Yeah, but so like you can charge a weapon up that could be ridiculously cool, and it's gonna do a crap ton of damage. But guess what? That idiot decided you know he was gonna pump a bunch of power into this thing, and there's a good chance it's gonna kill him or hurt him or maim him or whatever. I I think that there's an aspect where something like hazardous, yeah, that's are you not entertained? That's like B tier, a tier level, you know, stuff because you're you're you're you're gonna have an interaction, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yep. Yeah. So it what are you thinking for the added resource? No more and then, or you underestimate my power? Because it sounds like it's going in the bottom.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

I think it's going in the bottom. Uh I think it's no more and then.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Above or below blanking. I mean, it sounds like we both feel like it's right there with it, so it could go either way.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

I think it could go on either side. I think they're roughly the same. To be honest with you, I feel like they're the they're kind of the same mechanic in a way.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

I was thinking the same thing when you were talking about it. All right, let's find one that's a little bit more positive. Let's bring the mood up here a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Yeah, you're hitting me with all the bat all the ones that can that get me uh give me.

Kool-Aid Man

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Kool-Aid man, which is what I'm what I'm using for things that allow monsters, vehicles, other unit types that normally can't go through terrain to allow them to go through terrain, hence they Kool-Aid man through the walls.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

So again, uh this is this is something that I I think is cool, but I also do think it can add like a little bit of a flavor of really. Um I I think this one is probably talk to me, goose, like middle of the range. Um, just because I I think in the way the terrain layouts, it it does help some of your bigger monsters to actually be able to do something on the table. And oftentimes you have to do something in order to gain this ability, or you know, um you're taking something big that costs a lot in order to have that type of ability. Um, so I think it is really cool. I don't think it's a big one that really like changes or takes away anything from your opponent. Um, I think it just adds to your capability. It's kind of it's kind of fun in a way that you know that that thing's not going to be hindered by going through stuff. Um, so I'm kind of middle of the road on that one.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Oh, interesting. I would put this in are you not entertained? And that's simply because when I when I play Emperor's Children Court of the Phoenician, they have a stratagem to do this that Fulgram can use for free. And every time I do it, I go, Oh yeah.

Sticky Objectives

SPEAKER_02 32:50

I mean, it's cool. I I'm it's not the coolest part of the game. There's way cooler stuff.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

All right. Let's see if we can find a cool one. I'm getting negative, Steve, today. This is interesting. We'll go with sticky. Sticky objectives. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Going with something that I'm gonna love. No, maybe I just hate every interaction in the game. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

I was gonna say it there's deadly demise, and then there's everything else. If you ain't first, you're last. Okay, Ricky Bobby.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Um no, I I think sticky sticky's middle of the road for me. Like, I think it's cool. I think that you can do it, I think it's fun. I think I like the fact that not every unit can do it, and I like sometimes that like your more feeble units are the ones that are thinking that's like, oh, I'm gonna hold this thing, I don't know, with a grot or something like that. And it's like, really? That's that's what stuck that objective. Um I I I like it when there's like actions that go along with sticky, like when you have to like burn an objective or something like that. I think that that's really fun. I think it's really funny. Um, when you're over there and like your your mission is, you know, hey, I'm gonna dig in here and I'm just gonna tear this thing to pieces and it's mine now. Like, I think that that aspect's kind of fun. Like, I would put sticky more up towards like the top of the middle tier. Because I I think it adds a level of fun to the game. I I think it's a good thing, I think it's an upper level good thing. I don't think it's the best thing, but I think it's top of the middle tier.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

All right, I'll give you that one. I I saw it between Are You Not Entertained and Talk to Me Goose? Because it's like my favorite part of it is like you said, a lot of the units that can do it aren't the ones you would expect. Like they're not the most powerful ones, so there is a challenge there to keep them alive long enough to do it. And then it just leads to a lot of really funny jokes in the moment, like talk about the Death Guard stickying an objective. That's just really funny.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Yeah, it kind of makes you like like literally in my mind's eye, I look at it and I'm like, oh, that one's covered in slime now. That's disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

And then there's other immature non-adult things that yes, there are lots of ways to have to have very inappropriate jokes made about the sticky ability. I agree with you.

Go Mode

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Oh man. All right, let's all right.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

I'm you're right. I'm struggling to pick ones that are getting you to be positive. All right, this one I'm pretty sure will. And I did lump two things together, um, just because we're running out of space for the tiles. So a go mode for a unit, which the ultimate of that is the wah turn for orcs.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

How can you not like the wah? Like, it is it's a part of this game. Like, when you go into a community event, someone's gonna say it. Someone's gonna yell wah. Like, I've been in a local game store and I'm shopping for something, I'm picking paints or whatever. I don't know what I'm doing in it, right? Talking to somebody, right? Um, and then in the back, all you hear is right, it's fun, it's interactive, it gets people, you know, immersed into it. I'm gonna say that this is probably top of are you not entertained? Peeking into Did We Just Become Best Friends? Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Man, you are the Russian judge today. I to me that is did we just become best friends? Like it, and granted, you have been on the receiving of this. Having a smash captain with a one turn, one you know, once per game go mode is my favorite thing. Because when that guy goes into combat, I just picture Happy Gilmore lining up on a golf ball.

unknown 37:03

I don't know.

Fight / Shoot On Death

SPEAKER_02 37:04

I I'm I'm getting agitated over here. I'm like getting itchy. I'm like, I gotta move around like you're you're making me sweat on these a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Man, all right. Let's see if we can find some other ones. Um so I'm not we're getting into the territory where I'm not sure what you're gonna think of these. So we'll go with shoot and fight on death.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

So I actually love the fight on death mechanic. I I wish I wish there were more of like units that maybe maybe not so much units, because fights on death for a unit is sometimes a little annoying. But like I wish that more characters had fights on death. Like, like they're just like they've been shot with six arrows and they're on their last will, but yet they're still slinging the sword around. Like, it's cool. It's cool. Also, it gives you a chance in the game to be able to say, I didn't get to use that unit, but if if I roll and they get back up and I can fight with them, cool, they did something, right? Um, so I'm gonna say, are you not entertained? Because I do find it entertaining. I I will tell you, I wish if you had fights on death, just have fights on death. Okay. Sometimes we over we over put like all these like conditions that have to be met. Like, just have fights on death, right? It doesn't have to be this like big long draw now. Oh, I got 10 of these berserks, and now I gotta roll five up for all of them. Now I gotta roll 10 five ups. Oh, I only rolled four. Okay, these these ones now, which ones are the ones that are getting back up? Like just in that moment, I drug the game out a little bit and I added something to the game that kind of reduces the flow of it, the flow of the fights on death. Just we have units that just have it. Just give it to all of them and be done with it.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, it it's if it's a data sheet ability, I can get the like three up, four up fights on death. If I'm having to spend a CP for it, because it's a stratagem, just make a two CP and make it automatic. And and I understand that that that starts to get into it's sounding like tryhard, but I there's nothing worse than like you spend one CP to give your unit fights on death, and you roll nine one, twos, and threes, and only one guy gets to fight. And you're like, great, I just you know, I wasted a one, I wasted a lot of time, two, I wasted a command point. So I'm with you. Add a little bit more certainty into it. I'm kind of wishing I'd split this one. I'll be honest, I hate shoots on death. I hate it. And granted, there's a melee player bias there, but I think I think the number of guns and the range at which you can do damage, I just don't like that mechanic.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

I don't really have a ton of units that do shoot on death, so I don't I I won't say that I have a uh an inherent feel for that one. But fights on death, that one hits me in my soul. Because and you made the comment about the data sheet. Just give them the keyword. Give them a keyword and be done with it. Like it's that easy, and it could make the mechanic really super fun. I mean, berserks. How cool would it be if like they got a fights on death without having to do the the the roll off? I mean, it would be good.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Or do the inverse of what they do with things like tank shock, where it's a fights on death. So tank shock gets you roll a bunch of dice and then you do mortal wounds, but it says up to a certain amount. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

That's fair. Cap it. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yeah, cap it. You know, fights on death, four up, but in a squad of five, you get a minimum of two guys who get to do it.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Cool. Yeah, I'm for that. I like it. Cap it.

Fights First

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yep. Alright. Well, I think it would be create a floor for it this time, but alright. Um, ooh, do I try and keep up the positive momentum or do I go with something that is more of a coin flip? I I'll go with a a coin flip. Fights first. Which is changing apparently in 11th edition, but we're gonna talk about fights first as it exists today.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

I wish they would get rid of fights first completely.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Alright, I figured that this was gonna be a you don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

I I just it's so it's not confusing. It's just I I haven't played in a game yet where people are like, oh, I have fights first. Wait, hold on. What's that mean? Wait, uh uh like it's just not it's not a well thought out mechanic yet. And I'm gonna put it in you underestimate my power because I think it could be fine. I just think it needs to be looked at quite a lot, and right now the way it is, it's kind of clunky and it makes things not flow very well. That's just kind of my opinion on it. Like, I I understand, like, it's kind of cool, like this unit coming in, like, they're big and bad, and like probably pretty scary, right? And like, you know, yeah, of course, they're gonna swing first, like they're aggressive, they're super whatever, right? Um, I get that. I get I get why we have it. I I'm not saying take it out of the game, I'm just saying the way it is now, it's just too clunky.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

I'm okay with where you have it. I would put it in Talk to Me Goose, but it comes with a caveat of I want to see the change. I want to see this treated like you know, so Space Marines Captain has a rule called Rights of Battle where you get a free stratagem or a free, you know, take one point off of the CP cost of a stratagem once per round. But then it's got a rider that says only one unit with this ability can use it per round. I wish they would do that with fights first. And it I will admit, this is a this is a little bit of a visceral coming off of a recent game. I had my LGS, where I was playing my Blood Angels, and it's in a league, so everyone knows what everyone else played. And my opponent rocked up, and three-quarters of his army had fights first. And I'm playing Blood Angels, like it it it just from the jump created this oh, great, you hard counter my army. Awesome. And so I I wish they would throw that dynamic. If they put that dynamic on it, then fights first to me goes to are you not entertained? It creates. A wrinkle that people have to think about when they're playing the game. But when as soon as you see two or more fights first units, I start to get annoyed.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Make it a core stratagem that costs you one CP.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Make it a core stratagem that in in your opponent's fight phase for one CP, you can fight first. Oh now you're spending a resource to do it.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

I I I mean they've got counter-offensive for that, which is it sounds what 11th edition fights first is going to turn into. So I actually think they're going in the direction you said.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

I'm fine with it just being counter-offensive. That's okay. But I'm saying make it a core stratagem and and and charge your resource to do it. Yeah, I'm all for it. But it can feel real unfair real quick when someone's got an entire army of fights first. And I mean, shout out to Cousin Josh here. My man finally got some fights first in his necrons, but how long did you have to wait for it? And I know that that created feel bads on that side multiple times. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Alright. Um, we'll go to uh and I'll kind of lump them together, even though I'm not sure they do. Rapid ingress and uppy-downy. So rapid ingress, you can drop something down on your opponent's turn. Um, you know, ideally, if it has deep strike, that becomes very powerful, but you know, you can do it even if it's just coming from reserves, and then uppy-downy, like that's the Grey Knight's army rule. You can pick something up at the end of your opponent's turn and then re-redeploy it during your movement phase.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

So I'm gonna lump Uppy Downy, Rapid Ingress, and Deep Strike together. And I'm I'm gonna put them in Are You Not Entertained? Because I think that these create a uh they create drama on the battlefield, which is really cool. Like I I've talked about how you know one of the biggest things that I look for in a game is how are you gonna change the way that I'm trying to control the board or have the presence of my army? And I think that these are big game changers. I think that these things can flip the momentum in a game, they can really stretch an army out, they can change perspective, they can cause you to be able to get the secondaries, they can cause you to be able to score differently, right? You can use them, anybody can use them, both sides can use them, right? And you know, you can use them to your advantage, you can use them against your opponent for their disadvantage. So, like I just think that it's it's a part of the game that creates this drama in in the battle that that really amps up strategy, and so I think that it's absolutely a fun mechanic. I think it's really cool, I think it's really hard to plan around, which makes it fun too. So, yeah, I think it's are you not entertained for sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

I I really, really enjoyed. I'm right there with where you put all of them. My only caveat for Uppy Downy would be it comes with the rider of there's a point at which the the units are powerful at range shooting, where maybe don't give those units uppy-downy. Like when space marines were able in the the Raven Guard detachment to uppie downy centurions. Okay, that starts to get to the point of this doesn't feel fun, this doesn't feel like the this feels silly, this feels stupid. When Necrons were uppy-downying Katan using hypercrypt and six-inch deep striking them away, that didn't, you know, so there's a point there, like uppy-downying things that are supposed to be very highly mobile infantry type units. I'm all for it. But it I would just put the writer, there's a line where it becomes a come on, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_02 48:00

So you just did a thing though. You you added to the core of what the uppy-downy is, right? Yep, you added Uppy Downy and this, right? And deep strike six inches away from so-and-so, and the and blah, right? That's why we that that's why and no more and than is up there because that's exactly what it is. No more ands, right? Just do the thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Um, but you saw the code in the matrix, dang it.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Yeah, just just do the thing, no more ands. Every time you add an and to there, it's gonna cause a feel bad, I feel.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Or the the probability of a feel bad gets greater. It's almost like every time you add an and, these things start moving down one tier.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Alright. Um, so let's let's do another kind of grouping of things, and I'm not sure that they're all gonna go together, but things that allow you to move during your opponent's turn. So reactive moves, which are you move within nine inches of me, then I get to make a move. Some of them you have to roll a dice for, others is just a flat six or or whatever inch move. Surge moves, you shoot me, I take damage, or I lose a model, I get to move towards you and potentially get to move into engagement range of you. Uh heroic intervention, you charge a unit near me. If it's within six inches, I can declare a charge against you, and I can move into engagement range of you. And then the last one, which was the I mean, there's a bunch of iterations of this, but Phantasm was the big one. Just things that say at the end of your movement phase or the end of your fight phase, I can make a flat move. So four different ones that all kind of fall into the same rough category, but I just looking at your face, you're gonna have different reactions to all four.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Well, I I do I would say that I would put them in the same category, but I have like a high to low, if that makes sense. So like reactive move and surge move, I think that's a great mechanic. I think it adds it adds this like aspect that you gotta work around, right? It's like you know, if you put yourself in your little toy models uh presence, right? If something scary is running at you or shooting at you, you're gonna get the heck out of there, right? So like reactive move, it makes sense. Like, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna move if you see something charging at you or or moving at you, right? Um surge move, that's just funny. It's cool. Like, uh, you hurt me, I'm gonna get closer now. Like, like you want this pain, I'm bringing it to you. Like, I don't know. So those two, like, I think that they're pretty high up there for me. I I think that they're are you not entertained? I think it's it's an interesting aspect to the game. I think it adds a like a layer to the game that that doesn't affect flow. It doesn't keep your I guess it does keep your opponent from doing something from you, but it's a move. It's not uh no no no, you didn't get to all that work you just put in, you didn't you didn't you don't get to now shoot or attack or anything like that. It's just a move. Um now some of the other ones, like Phantasm, like I didn't do anything to you. Why do you get to just just whatever, it's your turn, but I didn't feel I feel like I haven't played enough yet, so I'm gonna do something anyway. Like I'm putting that one lower. Um I think that that's probably you underestimate my power, if I'm being honest. And and and the reason being is again, it kind of fits the theme that we always talk to is like you you don't you don't have any blood in this. You you don't have any any you haven't felt any scars in your back. You just did it. You just did this thing just because you're special. Um and yeah, no. Um now heroic intervention. This is actually gonna go in the top for me. Yeah, because uh no no no, put it up there in S tier, put it up in then we just become best friends because come on, all right, yeah, no, no, put it up there in the top, top one. And and the reason why I think heroic intervention is we all want a hero on the board, right? Like that like I love champions and calls, right? I love uh commissars and tank commanders, right? I uh you know, and like I want, you know, I want Mortarian to be the baddest leader I got on the in in the whole game, right? I want a hero on the board, and this is the coolest mechanic to engage hero hammer or whatever. I think they do say hero hammer, right? That's like a thing people talk about all the time, right? I think this is this is the core concept of that. I love it. I I don't always use it, I don't always get to use it when I should, and I probably should practice it more, but when it does happen, it's just cool, it's a cool part of the game.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

Again, because about it. I love heroic intervention because you you get that like cinematic feel of the guy who just got charged is calling for help, and Rudy's coming screaming off the bench to come save him.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

I just like every time it happens. Uh do you remember the there was a Mel Gibson movie called The Patriot? Oh, yeah. Do you remember that movie? Right. That end scene where like all the chaos is going around, and like um, you know, his enemy is like in the center and like kind of killing everybody, and he's like, No, no, no, no, he's mine. And like it just everything else melts away, and and he goes in there and they have their epic battle, right? That is what happens in my head every time someone's like, I'm gonna heroically intervene. And it's like, or, or it's either that or like the moment in like the war movie where the guy's like, listen, man, you did everything you could do. You know, now I'm doing this for you. You know, I'm gonna take this one and watch, you know, I'm gonna go be a badass. And like, you know, sits the guy down and then he just you know rips off his body armor, he's all jacked up and just goes and crushes the guy, right? That part of the movie happens every time heroic intervention happens on the table for me.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Yeah, it I'm with you. I also would put, I mean, I would probably put surge moves in Did We Just Become Best Friends because I love it when I like I love Blood Surge from Corn Berserkers. I think that's so cool. It's probably a bit overused now. It would have been, did we just become best friends when it was still just the unique corn berserker thing? Yeah. Um and I would put Phantasm lower. I there is a special spot in hell in my mind for that kind of mechanic. Because, like you said, you have perfect information, you didn't have to accept any trade-offs, I didn't even do anything to you, and you just get to move because your army's better than me. Like, no, I I viscerally hate that mechanic.

Fire and Fade

SPEAKER_02 55:41

I would put that mechanic at the lowest tier if it stopped me from being able to do something, right? Yeah. Um, but because it's just you doing something and it's not necessarily stopping me from interacting with you, I'm gonna leave it there in the lowest part of you underestimate my power. But I don't like it either. I I just I don't know, you gotta you gotta have skin in the game. You gotta have skin in the interaction. Can't be just doing stuff willy-nilly on your side just because oh, you're special. No. Alright, what's next? Okay, I'm getting all wound up over here. I can't even sit down.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

That's alright, that's good. Alright, so we'll do uh we'll stay in the theme of movement shenanigans, and this is another spicy one. Fire and fade.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

I knew it was coming.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Yep. Um you've been looking at that one for the past 45 minutes, just getting antsy.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

So I don't like fire and fade. I'm gonna put it under US to underestimate my power. Um it's probably middle of that pack. But it's for the same reasons, right? You you get to shoot me and then just get get out of there. And listen, I I hear, I hear it. I know that um the units that can do this generally are not your most high-powered defensive units, you know, out there. So really their chances of living are not as high as others. Their staying power on the board is not as high as others, so they use this mechanic to be able to keep those things on the board. But when your whole freaking army can do it, come on, man. Like, I could see if it's just one or two units that can do this, but like uh ugh.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

So you just articulated exactly where my head goes on this, which is all right, Gray Knight interceptors who are shooting a bunch of storm bolters, tyranny gargoyles who are shooting a bunch of basically pistols. I can get on board with them having move, shoot, move, because that kind of fits the thematic, like, yeah, they need to move, shoot, move because they need to be on the run because they're not probably doing a whole like they're just doing chip damage at best.

unknown 58:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

When you can do fire and fade with a real unit that can do real damage, yeah. I yeah, that this goes down in no more and then for me because it's like if if you and I'm picking on Eldar again, but the fire dragons, the ability to jump out, blow away a 150, 200, 250 point vehicle, and then fire and fate your way back out of engagement or back out of sight so you can't be interacted with. Nope, you're too powerful to use that ability. That that starts to get into the too many ands, like you said, in my mind. I'm fine on this being used against cheaper units that aren't high damage output.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Well, so that's why I didn't put it in the no more ands, right? Because I I think that there are some units that, you know, like if they're throwing rocks at a tank, like, okay, all right, I get it, right? It's kind of funny. It's like it's like, you know, in uh in Ewok and in Star Wars.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

You know what would be hilarious if in orcs Gretchen had fire and fade.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

I would love that. See, it would go right up the tier list for me if a Gretchen could be could be sitting there just like talking Gretchen smack with his little pistol, right? Shooting a tank, and then he's like, See you. Like, that's great. I'm all for that, but yeah, I I don't know. Uh just when it's across your army and on bigger things, I think it becomes one of those things that's not a real fun interaction for anybody on the board other than the person who's you know getting the optimization out of it.

Transport Tricks

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yep. All right, let's uh let's move to transport shenanigans. So I've got three here that tie to transports, and they are transport reembarkation abilities, assault ramp, which is the ability to charge units out of a transport after it has made a normal move. The most famous example is the land raider, yep. And firing deck, which is things have an open top, and they usually it has a number after it that says a certain amount of units get to fire out of the transport, even if they're they're embarked inside it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

So put them all in the middle tier. And here's why. I think you have to have these mechanics in order to have fun. I think you have to have aspects of I mean, assault ramp makes me think of like Starship Troopers, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

The the door comes down and you're running out there like everybody dies. Like, you know, like I just that's what I get in my head when assault ramp happens, right? Shooting out of the top of the truck. Okay, everybody listening to this should have played some form of Halo at some point, right? So, like you're running around on a warthog hanging off the back of that thing with you know a gauze cannon or or the whatever the autocannon was, I forget the name of it now. But yeah, firing deck, right? You're shooting out of the top of this thing. That's a part of being in a transport, right? Um, and then you know, like reembarkation. I actually wish they would do more with these types of mechanics in the game. I wish that the interactions between troops loading and unloading out of vehicles and things like that um were just a little better thought out, a little better, um, a little more advanced, and there were better options. Because I think what happens today is you know, you basically have to plan for this mechanic to only go so far in the game. And and that so so you only have a portion of the game where this mechanic's even gonna even matter, right? And and that kind of I think limits it. Um, so that's why I don't know. I I say middle tier. I kind of wish there was more here, but that's where I would go.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:03

Yeah, I think I'm roughly in the same spot. I really like firing deck. I really like assault ramp. I especially like that it's limited to things like the Land Raider, which are real big and clunky and hard to maneuver around. I think that it would be tough if you had things like, and I understand that I think there's one-offs of this, but like if you could give a Dracari boat that can get almost anywhere on the boat on the board, assault ramp, that that's pushing it too much.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:31

But a Sagittarius. If you can give a Sagittarius, uh a Sagittarius should not have a salt ramp.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. That's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Now a Hecaton should uh yeah, I yeah, I could see that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

I'll I'll give you that. My only pushback would be they're dwarves, they're supposed to be slow.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Oh my god, we're good in short distances, man. We're sprinters, natural born sprinters. That's what assault assault ramp is giving us added speed where like it's giving us trajectory. That that should be on every dude. I take it back, should be on a Sagittarius too.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

I'll give it to you if your units have to take a hazardous test because one of them trips and falls down the ramp and gets squashed by his buddies because they've got stumpy legs and they can't run at a decline.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

They couldn't they see the problem is they have to hop off of it at the end. It's the little jump that gets them every time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

Yep. Yeah, it I'm roughly aligned. And then I the transport re-embarkation, it comes with a be careful rider. But like I play Harlequins, it's so cool when you can, and it's the Star Weaver that lets you do it. You get your guys out of the Star Weaver, they run up, they smash something in melee, and at the end of the phase, boop, they get right back in and they're hiding inside the transport. I think that's really cool, but I I love the rider that they put on it for most armies, which is you have to have been eligible to fight to get back in. I I like how they squashed the you can't fire and fade right back into it again.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

I I like it that no matter what, I think everybody out there does the same thing you just did, right? The most like staunchy, tough player, and every time you're gonna reembark that person, you can go.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

Oh, it's that's that's to me the the sanity check of is it a fun thing? If you make funny noises and you don't even know you're doing it, it's probably a fun mechanic. Like I'd be willing to bet Deadly Demise, there's a lot of people like they roll their dice, they see the six, and they go, there's some above like boom.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

I mean, we we have special duddies that are only rolled for that reason, right? So like yeah, it's it's just a it's fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

All right, I think we got time for one more, and then we'll go into wrap-up and we'll do another do another grouping here, and I'm gonna go defensive things because we still have we still have about 10 to 12 on the board. We're not gonna do that without getting to a 90-minute episode. So we'll do the next probably three or four, which is invulnerable saves, feel no pains, and loan operative. Which are all very defensive type buffs and abilities.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

I think they're on the you underestimate my power. I I think that and here's why. I think they all go together, and I think that's when you do invulnerable save and feel no pain and low knob. It's the and problem again, right? Because that's what happens. They it's it doesn't ever feel bad when it's just one of them. It's when there's this and this, you know, and you start to stack them. That's when they start to feel really bad. And I think that that's why they kind of go together. So Separately, they're not that big of a deal, right? It's just a part of the game. Like, oh, that sky's tough. He doesn't feel that he got shot, right? Or like an involved and save. Hey, he had special armor on him. So, you know, he's gonna be able to save save on a four instead of a five. But it's when you stack it on top of it, one, it slows the dang game down, like big time. It's like, oh, I gotta do all this math, especially if you got like, I don't know, work shooting where you got 30 things that now you gotta go and and you gotta go figure all this out, and then how many wounds came out of that? Now you gotta do your feeling opinions for all these wounds, and you gotta slow roll it here and this, that, and the other. It's just too much. It's too much. Calm it down.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

Oh, I'm okay with that as long as we can put it above fire and fade.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

Oh, it's above fire and fade.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

I won't personally, I would put involuntary.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

Would you like us to put fire and fade in the bottom so that you feel better?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

Can we put it in the bottom of you underestimate my power?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

Okay, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

I personally I would put involun and loan op in talk to me goose, probably at the bottom. I would leave Feel No Pain and you underestimate my power, and I 100% agree with you. The big problem is when you layer those things on top of each other, which is why everyone hates Catan right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

Yeah. I get it.

Damage Shenanigans

SPEAKER_01 1:07:27

So all right, let's do one more and then we'll stop. And and I'm gonna pick a I can speed round the rest of these. Alright, speed round the rest of them. Uh, there's one that I'm gonna have a real spicy take on. The other ones I'm pretty vanilla ice cream on.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:41

Sustained, I think, is probably middle of Talk to Me Goose.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

I don't think it's so it's sustained greater than one. So things that get sustained two and three.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

I'm okay with it. I it's rare. It's not, it doesn't happen all the time. It's rare. So put it in talk to me goose.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:59

All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

Um anti-X, put that in the top of no more and ands. I hate that. I hate it, I hate it, I hate anti-everything, like stop. You could have a specialist, but it can't be anti that person's whole army, right? And that's that's where it gets in a lot of trouble for me. It's like just I don't know. I just think that that's a ridiculous mechanic personally. Um, Overwatch, I love Overwatch. Put that up there and entertained.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

Because Do I have to?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:35

That's the one I hate.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:37

Okay, well, I love it. Here's why. If not stacked with ands, Overwatch is kind of cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

Alright, let's do Dev Wounds and Progressive Buffs, and then we'll fight about Overwatch and we'll end on a funny note.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:52

Dev Wounds is you're underestimating my power.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:56

Why did you over you put Overwatch in here twice? You hate it that much.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:01

Oh, I wanted to put it in No Marion Then twice. I play Melee Armies. I hate Overwatch.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

Okay, but as a person who doesn't always play melee armies, it is a way for me to help with some of the oppressiveness that a melee army can can provide, right? Now, if Overwatch was a guaranteed every time, now I understand flamers and I understand Meltas and all that fun stuff, right? I get it, right? Or conversions too. Um, if it was a guaranteed hit every time, I would say yeah, but let's be real. How often does Overwatch go off with a hundred percent success?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

100% not that often. So it I'll I'll echo back some of what you're saying, and I'll I think we can find a middle ground on this, which is if Overwatch was at 12 inches and back to the charge phase only, I could and you don't get any rules that allow you to re-roll, which they've started to do, I could get behind Overwatch being in the Are You Not Entertained? Because then it's about spiking dice, and it's funny when it goes off.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

Agreed. And I did say Overwatch, but not Overwatch when you add all the ands into it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

I like Overwatch. I think it's it's kind of cool. Like, you're gonna charge me, not this time, but I'm probably gonna reactively shoot at you, so I'm not gonna be as accurate.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

I'll put it in the bottom of Are You Not Entertained, but I still don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:39

It's not because you don't get to interact, though. Like you're gonna still get your interaction. Overwatch is not OP, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:48

It's not, but there are some places like Overwatch into Space Marines Without the Moment has a colossal feel bad. And I've been on both sides of that one. But you're to your point, that is an and then, that is not an overwatch problem, that is an and-then problem. All right, last one, progressive buffs, and this one's pretty niche, but like Emperor's Children code conceded, where it and space wolves used to have a version of this in their index where if you do certain things during the game, your army gets buffed up as you go. Yield points is kind of a version of that, or at least I think they thought it would be, but it's improperly implemented. Yeah, the Death Guard with the creeping plague, how those increase uh chaos knights with their dread abilities.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

I think it's a are you not entertained? I I I I think they're good. I think they're good for the game. I think it causes you to think of strategy against how you're gonna play. They're they're generally wrapped into identity of a faction, too. So it's not like it's a gotcha type thing. You know, you know it, right? All you know the minute that you're playing the death guard that you're gonna have to deal with these plagues that are going to be annoying, and it's giving you incentive. It's not saying don't interact, it's saying, hey, you better interact faster than you thought you would because this is gonna get tougher over time. And it's just a part of the strategy. So it's actually it's pushing engagement for the game. So that that's why I think it is you are not I'm right there with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

I love this because it makes it so that you can't build armies that are one size fits all plays, like you have to account for opponents who play the game differently and at different speeds. Because, like you said, depending on which one you're playing, like Chaos Knights and Death Guard, hey, you you better get on your horse early in the game and start start engaging because their buffs are going to get stronger as the game goes on, and Emperor's Children, Coterie of the Conceited, it creates a real fun dilemma of well, how much do you want to put out small units early to force me to come out and play? Because there's a high chance I will kill them and then I buff up the rest of my army. Or do you want to commit all your big stuff, make me come out, and maybe I can't get my buffs, but then you're committing earlier? It it introduces a new problem set for the other opponent to try and solve strategically. So I I love this kind of mechanic, as long as it's not overpowered, and I think it's properly implemented for the factions that have it right now.

Conclusion and Outro

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

Yeah, I I like it. I think it's a cool part of the game. So we we got to all of them. We did have to speed around a little bit at the end. I think I think one one of my biggest takeaways from this is we obviously missed having these level of discussions, and we had two weeks worth of stuff pent up to talk about, so we could have turned this into a two-hour podcast episode. But no, I I think this is fun. I think that there's there's a lot to the game that can cause these kind of weird interactions. Um and you know it. Like you know when you're playing the game, when it doesn't feel right, right? And so like there's an aspect where some of this stuff just it isn't fun, right? Now, am I saying we have to take all that out of the game? No, I'm not, but there are parts where I can say, absolutely, that is not fun. It's not fun to be on the receiving end, it's not even fun to be on the delivering end. And so there's just those parts of the game that you kind of just have to be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

I I would agree, 100% agree. And I would actually, you know, I would and then what you just said. Dangerous term.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:49

See what you did there.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:51

I think that these are really cool that it's there. This is highly subjective, so you're gonna get people. There's probably people when we were putting things in are you not entertained or did we just become best friends, that they're they're having a visceral I hate this moment, like I had with Overwatch. Yeah. And that's that's completely fair. The trap I see with these, and it I'm kind of contradicting myself with the progressive buffs evaluation we just did. The trap is when you get some armies where they look at these, especially the ones that are unpopular in our tier list, and they go, but that's my identity.

unknown 1:15:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:31

And because these are mechanics, and and I I think, especially if they're ones that come if that come with too many and thens, saying that's an identity becomes very careful or becomes very toxic, and you need to be careful with it.

unknown 1:15:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:49

Like right now, it's why it's why Necrons are universally hated. Their quote unquote identity in the meta is I stack reanimation with invulnerable save with feel no pain, whether it's on Wraiths, whether it's on Katan, whether it's on warriors. That's how Necron players play the game. It's not fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:12

I think if you can look at something and say that it's not fun, you should try to make sure that that's not the identity of your faction and how you're playing. I think that that's that's a key aspect to this, right? The whole point of this is to have fun. The whole point of this is to have fun with the person on the other side of the table from you. So yeah, that I mean that's kind of how we built this tier list is what are the things that are most fun to do with the person on the other side of the table? And I think that that's that's that's really how you have this stacked. I mean, how fun is it? Deadly demise is fun. I it's funny. I mean, yeah, sometimes it can really swing a game, but it's funny. Heroic intervention makes you feel like you're playing Hero Hammer. That's cool, it's exciting. You know, the the aspects of of the game that are fun and drive a fun experience to me are the things that you know I'm gonna always put at the top. That's just how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:24

It's a question to end the episode on, and we can both answer it. Not pick the tier as in where we put the all abilities. Pick a name of the tier that's your favorite.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:43

I think are you not entertained is actually maybe my favorite. Go ahead. Well, the the reason is because I I wasn't expecting it, but I don't know. It's kind of funny, like, like the things we put in there, right? Like, wah, like, you know, um fights on death, like I could see him standing there going, Are you not entertained?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:14

Oh, next time we play, I like next time we play, I'm gonna make you play guard and play uh Lehman Rust Tank Commander, just so that when you shoot on death, you can be like, Are you not entertained?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:25

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's just it was a good, it was a good name for a tier. I liked it. I liked it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:31

All right, my my favorite is no more and then. I'm gonna start doing that in our games when people start doing like the you know, push his glasses up nose, ha ha ha, watch how smart I am. I'm gonna do this and this and this. Just no more and then, no more and then.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:47

And then no and then that's my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:51

I I got a giggle when I was setting this up when I came up with that idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:55

That's pretty cool. Now, this was fun, Eric. This is a good way for us to come back from our two-week break. I had a lot of fun. We could probably have talked for another hour on all of these things. Um, what's really cool about this, and and I like about it too, um, it's a way to kind of learn and talk about the mechanics uh in a way that is um, I don't know, less intimidating sometimes than just reading through like a quarter rule book or reading through like stratagems and and and people's mechanics lists. So like I don't know, it was uh it was a fun way to to look at that. I I'd encourage people if if you're out there, set up your own board, do this with your own thing, think through it because it's actually harder than you think it is in the moment. Um, I I knew we were doing this coming in, and I thought, oh, this is gonna be easy. It's not easy, it's not easy when you have to think about it this way. And I I would I would say give it a try. Everybody should maybe try this. We'll put the board out there. Obviously, it'll be on our uh, you know, our forum and Instagram and stuff like that. Check it out, try to do it yourself, see see what it comes out. We're you know, I'd be interested to see how other people do with this.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:09

Yeah, I had a lot of fun with this as well. I also agree with you. This is a great way to learn and remember these things because you're attaching a memory to it. Um, I would not be opposed to, and I don't want to be that podcast that just keeps recycling the same structure of episodes, but I would not be opposed to doing this in the future as a way of talking when new things come out, talking about newer things or talking about you know our favorite detachments, our favorite codices, and just come up with silly tiers and and it's a way to talk about what those detachments or units or whatever do, rather than the the thing you see on YouTube all the time, which is I did a space marine unit tier list, and I'm gonna tell you which ones are good right now. Like I think this is way more interesting. So I'm with you on that. I had a lot of fun doing this.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:59

Ton of fun. So I appreciate it. I'm excited to be back. I think um we're officially killing the two-week cycle and going back to one-week cycles.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:08

And so I've been stretching out my hamstrings for the past hour. I'm gonna take a victory lap. I think it's really funny that you went on vacation for a week and you came back and you're like, yeah, the every other week thing really worked for me. Like, things have been busy, and it was just nice. Like, I feel like we put out a higher quality episode. And I was like, Yeah, I can go along with that. Like, things have been busy and whatnot. And then, like, all this week, you have been a pill. And for today, I was wondering, like, hey, what's going on? You're like, I miss podcasting with you. I don't like this two weeks.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:40

It kind of sucked. I want to back the structure. Back to structure. We need structure. You'll never hear me say that again.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

There you go. So, yeah, I am I am very okay with that. We may have the occasional one of us goes on work travel or vacation, but we'll try and figure things out to to stay with the more regular weekly schedule. So, on that note, I think we're good to log off.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:04

All right, everyone. Well, welcome back and we'll look forward to next week. Have a good night.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:10

Take care, everyone.