32 - Be Excellent to Each Other

In this episode of the "Grown Men Playing With Toys" podcast, Erik and Steve do something a little different — Steve takes the wheel while Erik rides shotgun, and together they explore what happens when you step completely outside your comfort zone and learn a brand new game from scratch.

While Erik was on away, Steve spent the weekend with Cousin Josh diving headfirst into Age of Sigmar — a game he had never really played before. What started as a casual hobby weekend turned into something surprisingly meaningful. Together they explore:

• The power of Faction Identity — why understanding what your army wants to do is the first and most important step when learning anything new
• Macro before Micro — how applying a strategic framework to an unfamiliar game can get you immersed and competitive faster than you'd think
• Playing with Intent — why being transparent about what you're trying to do makes the game better for everyone at the table, and how it turns every mistake into a learning moment
• The Joy of Discovery — why the feeling of learning something for the first time is one of the best things about this hobby, and how Steve found it again in the most unexpected place
• What all of this means for 11th Edition — and why the upcoming rules shake-up might be exactly what we all need

Whether you're feeling burnt out on the current edition, intimidated by a game you've never played, or just needed a reminder of why you fell in love with tabletop gaming in the first place — this one's for you.

Check out our other content: https://gmpwt.blog/ https://www.youtube.com/@GrownMenPlayingWithToys

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If I'm helping you this way, how are people going to know how good at this game I am? How are they going to know how smart I am at this game? If I'm helping you, because then I'm increasing your chances that you might beat me.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

But see, it wasn't it wasn't an advantage thing or a disadvantage thing, because that's where like the other aspect of the things that we talk about here comes in, right? We said hold our dice. We're your hosts, Eric and Steve. Eric, welcome back, buddy. How are we feeling?

SPEAKER_02 1:04

We're feeling uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Uh-oh. Wait, you just had a week of vacation. How are you feeling uncomfortable? Unless you ate too much or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

No, it has nothing to do with physically uncomfortable. Vacation was great. I'm nice and relaxed. I didn't want to come back, which is a sign of a good vacation. I'm feeling uncomfortable because we're kind of reversing roles for this podcast episode. Because while I was gone, you had cousin Josh up, you played some Barnhammer, and you were the one blowing up my text, telling me how awesome it was, and all these cool moments, and all these things that I'm looking at, going, I I have no idea what you're talking about here. I don't you're obviously very excited, but I don't know why. And so we're gonna talk about that. So I'm feeling uncomfortable because you're gonna be the one going through most of this episode, and I'm gonna be interviewing you, and usually it's the other way around. So I'm playing your part, which is a little bit of a oh, the the shoes are on the wrong feet kind of feeling.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Well, uh ease down. We were excited because one, you weren't here, and two, we could we knew you were off doing fun stuff, so we had to make you feel a little jealous that we were doing tabletop stuff without you. Uh so yeah, we maybe maybe we amped it up just a little bit to maybe get you wound up, you know, great friends we are. But actually, it was really cool. We had a really cool weekend. Um it was a really you know a small thing. We we wanted to do something that was just a little bit of you know light and fun and and uh you know, in the world of 40k right now, everybody's kind of like really heavy. 11th is coming out, everybody's like spiraling off into different directions on what they think and the the the conspiracies and the leaks and all this other stuff. And uh we we we kind of wanted to do something a little different um for the weekend and not kind of get caught up in that stuff. So um dun dun dun. We uh we didn't play 40k.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

We played I was hoping you were gonna say so. We showed up and cousin Josh was playing triple katan, meta chasing necrons, and you were running triple defiler, death guard. Negative.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Nope, not at all. We we didn't even play 40k. We uh we played Age of Sigmar, um, which was really interesting because uh to be honest with you, our experience with the Age of Sigmar to date, you've been a part of this, right? Is that we we play spearheads um just because they're they're kind of cool, they're palette cleansing, they're kind of fast. Um, and it's something you can do on a much smaller table, you know, just like uh boarding patrol and all that other stuff that we do. Um, you know, it it's just something that you can do. We never have really fully invested into playing um Age of Sigmar. Um, and it's not something that you know we we talk about quite often here, um, but it but it was something different. And cousin Josh has invested a lot of time, and I mean he he invested a lot of time uh into painting and putting together his army. Um, and uh to be honest, he brought it up and he kind of wanted to like show it off and show us a little bit, and it was really cool that uh from from a hobby perspective, the painting schemes and the models that are in AOS are wicked cool. I mean, they are really cool, it's just a a different aesthetic, right? Um, that is that is really neat and a lot of fun, and I I don't know enough about like the factions and what they do. Um, but just what I did see, I thought it I thought it was really cool. I with that being said, we're not doing a 40k versus aos episode. That's not gonna happen. Um because one, I I don't know enough about aos, and Eric, I don't think you know enough about aos yet.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I've played exactly one game of spearhead, and I have my LGS owner trying, putting the hard sell on to get me to play in their upcoming AOS league. Um, and to repurpose some of my my chaos units to play a Slaves to Darkness army, which I'm not fighting. I just I don't know enough about it to to talk about it intelligently.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

So I don't either, right?

Learning a New Game System

SPEAKER_01 5:41

But here's what I do know enough about. I have this cool like 30 something podcast episode backlog of all the things that we have talked about since we started doing this podcast, and I was like, hey, this is a real chance for me to just kind of break my structure down um and see if I can apply a lot of the things that we've talked about, you know, on here um and discussed over time. Um, and and how does it play out in something that's not 40k, right? How does it play out if I was learning something in 40k, you know, that that I don't know, they come out with some new faction or something. I mean, I'm not leaking anything, I have no idea. They are never probably coming out with more factions. We don't really need them right now, but anyway, if they did, like how would I approach that? Because that's essentially what I was doing, right? We were we were playing a game that I I needed a way to come up with a strategy, I needed a way to break it down, I needed a way to understand it, um, and then I needed a way inside of the game to do something that was constructive and and went along with the flow of the game. Um, and I used a couple of the the things that we've talked about um here uh to really help me get through that. So I I I don't know. I was gener I'm generally excited more so to come on here and talk a little bit about the application of some of the things that we've talked about, um, rather than talking about like individual games or anything like that from an AOS perspective.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

So here's what I got out of one, what you're saying now, and two, you know, some of what you were texting me through the course of the week is you know, one, I think it was a good break given that there's a lot of I think you described it as heaviness or or negativity around 10th, because we're at the end of the edition. There's a lot of stuff being released that is questionably balanced right now, and there's just a lot of you know weariness with the current edition and wanting just to get onto the new one. The other thing I'm hearing is the you know you you went into something you didn't have a whole lot of context for, and you had to learn something brand new, and you were applying some of the kind of things that we were talking that we've talked about on this podcast as a way of trying to to help you you know come up with a structure or whatever to to understand the the new game and to to relate to it so that you could learn it quicker, which sounds wildly applicable given that 11th edition is gonna be coming up in the very near future.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

So that's exactly that's exactly what I'm trying to poke at, right? Is like I kind of took AOS and playing it over the past weekend, um and playing a lot of it over the past weekend and kind of being a student of it, um, as the same way as I can take some of these strategies into when 11th comes out and we actually finally get to see this rather than us all spiraling over it. But I I I think it was really cool.

Faction Identity and Macro Strategy

SPEAKER_01 9:00

So some of the things that I was able to pull from from our discussions, um which I thought really helped, were you know the the aspects that we talk about when it comes to um how to focus on what's happening on the tabletop, right? Yep. Um yeah, I don't think we've ever really s said that, right? But that's really what it is, right? How do how do you take all of these things? You got all this information coming into you. You you know, you got a new, in this case, um they don't call them codexes, they call them like battle tomes or something. Um you got a new book, you got new characters, new units, new brigades, that's a new thing. Um, you got all of those things, and you're all that's getting fired at you, right? Um how do you take that in, right? I want to play a game, I want to have fun with my cousin. He's very excited about this. Yeah, I want to have enjoyment and an experience on the tabletop. And so when I started walking through that, right, how do I how do I think through that? I'm like, oh well, let's start with what's my faction's identity? What do they do? Okay, let me flip to the page and read. Oh, these guys are supposed to be X, Y, and Z. And and you know, I was playing, um, I have no idea how to say their name, the Oserii, I think Bone Reapers. Sorry. Dyslexia. That's a tough one for me. Um the Necrons of AOS. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The the Neck Bone Stodies, I think they have been referred to as well. Um, so which I kind of like that name. Um, but anyway, uh so as I'm reading it, I'm like, I'm I'm sitting here, I'm going, okay, before I even put my list together, right? So I'm getting pre pre-list hammer, right? I'm sitting here and I'm going, all right, what do they want to do? And I'm looking at the models and I'm looking at the book and I'm reading about you know what you know what their stat lines are, and I'm trying to formulate this faction identity first. Because what I realize is if I can understand at least from face value, what I think they want to do, then I can get into macro strategy. And now I'm starting to play the game. So that's what I did. I I I I sat it down, I looked at it, I said, okay, these are the units I have, right? And I went with um basically their two combat patrols that I was able to get, and we can talk about that in a second, because this this has a full circle. Like we did the whole episode where Steve goes into the games workshop store and he sees all the fancy shiny models, and I was saved by the fact that um apparently they didn't have any of mine. So my wallet was very thankful for that. But so what I was able to get was two combat patrols, essentially, um, which gave me enough to start an army that I could put on the table with my cousin. Yep. Right? So now I have these units and I'm looking at them, and I pull and I figured out, okay, I essentially have cavalry, and I essentially have what I would call Terminators, right? And those are my big two like things that I have inside of this army, and then I have some like other stuff, wizards and leaders and all that fun jazz, right? But from an identity, I'm I got a fast moving cavalry and I got a slow moving but really tanky Terminator set. You got a hammer and an anvil, exactly. I'm like, all right, cool. I have my strategy. Here's all my flankers, they're gonna come around, they're gonna do all my things, and then I have this thing that's gonna be how I hold spots or gain board control, and so on and so forth. I've I'm I was literally, and I think I texted you this. I was literally like, hey, I'm using macro strategy right now to help me learn this. It's not even a thing that I'm that I have to think through inside of the game, but it was I'm learning through me breaking this down into what's my identity, what's my macro strategy? Now I'm gonna learn a game, understand how things like secondaries work and the things, the rules and the interactions that happen with inside the game. Now I have my my way of getting to my micro strategies. And so we I really applied that, and I told Cousin Josh that I was doing this throughout the and so he he started kind of repeating it back to me, which was a really fun interaction on the tabletop. It's like, well, my guys are trying to do this, and I think that this is what they're gonna do, and this is really I think what I want to do from an objective, and he's like, Oh, well, my guys are doing this and they want to do this, and I thought back to some of the interactions that you had at your local game store, yeah, right? Of like, you know, how you guys were setting up to play each other in in your campaign, um, and how those interactions were a little rough. So it it was again, it was like, oh, like I kept having these light bulb moments that kept going off as as we were getting ourselves ready to play. So so again, identity, macro strategy. Now both Josh and I know what you know what's going on on either side of the table.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

And was so he was he was sharing kind of his identity and and details about his army. He wasn't just helping you figure out yours.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

No, exactly. He he was talking through that, and other Josh was there, and we did kind of the same interaction there too. Um, and same thing, and it was like, wow, it was like this is this is really cool. This could be a situation where my cousin, who has spent months studying, because he's obsessed, right? He loves this, and I I get it, it it's based around a lot of the video games that he's playing, and like you know, they're his favorite characters, and like honestly, you could see it come out of him that like this is his jenny, like this is like he can't well, it's his jenny, it's his favorite, it's his identity, he can't quit it.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Like, all kinds of things came out, and it's like cool, and he's playing the new Chaos Dwarfs, right? Like the Helm Smiths of whatever, Hellschmidt, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Um, and you know, and he loves them, and I I'm here for it. It's fun to watch somebody who on the other side of the table who is just immersing themselves in the experience, right? And getting really excited about what's gonna happen on the tabletop. And so, but to your point, um, it wasn't the way that we were interacting was more of a you know, not an expert, hey, I know exactly what's gonna happen here, I know what's going on on the table type situation. It was more of a oh, okay, well, if that's what yours does, my mine's supposed to do this, and these guys are supposed to be this type of a unit, and these guys do these things, and it wasn't about like, hey, I'm pushing my proverbial glasses up here. Um, it wasn't about, hey, the stat line on this is XYXZYG, you know, B Z A, right? And like remember that because it's gonna come up in like 20 minutes, and when you're getting your face pounded in by this thing, right? It was more of a hey, this big he I have no idea the names of these units. Just bear with me, folks, if you're an AOS fan. I I get it, I'm learning, I'm trying, but I don't know the names of them. But he had this big unit, it was like a bull, like a bull centaur or something like that. And um basically the way he described the unit to me was um, you probably don't want to get in melee with this thing. And I'm like, Yeah, obviously it's like towering on the side of the thing. He's like, but this is my unit that's gonna kind of try to force your units into the spaces where I can then trap them with some of my other like death by a thousand cuts units, or uh he had he had this ridiculous unit that was like uh I'm not gonna lie, I actually used the term OP, maybe potentially, uh, in my first ever game with these guys because I was like, how the heck did that just happen? Um, but anyway, he had like the blunder busts, I think they were called, um, and they're like his shooting unit. So he's like, basically, you know, like this bull centaur thing is gonna basically try to herd your guys, and you're gonna want to try to stay away from him, and he's gonna try to herd your guys into a position where I can put you into like firing range or I can pin you in a corner and hit you with a bunch of people. Yep. And and I'm sitting here and I'm going, dang, that is so much easier to remember than that. That thing is, you know, X, Y, Z, you know, this many attacks and all this other stuff. And I'm like E11, 16 wounds, three up, four up. Yeah, rend four, whatever, right? All these things that are flying at you, right? Yep. But the interaction was more of a hey, this is what this thing's gonna try to do, and it has the capability to do that. So just maybe if you're putting together your strategy on how to deal with this, this is what it's gonna try to do. And I was just like, wow, I was like, this is cool, like, okay, I can I can I'll work with that, right? I got Terminator units, like maybe they can suck up some of that thing's time, you know, and then the other guys can go run around, right, and do things and stay away from that big scary thing. Because being honest with you, Josh played that thing really well and got me tied up with my cavalry, and man, did that thing do work.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

I mean, the way you're describing it, it sounds like a catan. Yeah, which uh which he is very which he is very experienced playing.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yeah, it it's very much like a katan. Yeah, um except for when he whiffed, and oh my god, that the dice gods. It was really funny because I was playing Leagues of Votan, I was playing with Leagues of Votan dice against his dwarfs, so it was kind of like the the dwarf gods were smiting him every time. Like I was rolling good, and he wasn't. It was really funny. Um, but but yeah, he he was in describing that um that kind of interaction where you know we were upfront with the identity, upfront with kind of what we're trying to do. Um, you know, I didn't really know what his macro strategy was because he just explained what his units kind of are used for, but that didn't explain exactly how he was going to use them. Um, and I thought that that was just a a really cool interaction. And, you know, I thought based on the way that you've described some of your interactions in the last couple episodes with your, you know, folks from your local game store, I thought that that might be something that I could share with you and with everybody else here. Um, of like, hey, here's a way that you can talk through a new engagement with somebody or maybe with a new faction or with a new rule or whatever it is um that you've never experienced before that this gives you a way of kind of breaking that down.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

I think it's really cool because what I'm hearing is two things. One, it's reminding me an awful lot of you know, I think I made mention there's one game that I just had a ton of fun in my LGS and I was playing against AdMec. And it's one of the games I think it's the game that I lost, but the AdMec guy did exactly what you're talking about because I had no idea. Like I've never even seen an admec army on the table before. And so he's you know, he walked me through and is this is the name of the unit, this is the role it plays in my army, these are the things that it can potentially do, these are the things to walk out. And he wasn't quoting all the numbers, but it was like, this is my anti-vehicle, you know, charging threat, this is my anti-vehicle shooting threat, this is my you know, the this unit here can deep strike, so I'm probably gonna start them in reserves. So the way you're describing it reminds me an awful lot of that. And like it like you're describing with cousin Josh, I really appreciated that the the admac player went out of his way to do that because it it helped immensely to just know okay, I have a frame of reference for what you. could do now. You didn't tell me what you're going to do, but you told me what you could do. And I have an idea, so I'm not surprised now.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I think that's I think that was the cool part is like I I came into this knowing nothing. Right? But to your point, and I think it's a really good point, like it took it took a it took away gotcha feeling, if you will. Like there wasn't like a a gotcha moment. Like at one point I got tangled up with this bull thing, right? And I'm sitting there going, man, that was dumb on my part, right? Yep. Because he told me try not to get tangled up with this thing because it's gonna hurt you. Right. And I'm like oops. Now some of the things there are a lot of mechanics in AOS that are just different than 40k. Um you know one of the things that uh we were kind of learning as we were playing was like how to play with like the wizards and the priests and they can do like prayers and one can cast spells and stuff like that. And I will tell you some of the language wrapped around how how AOS does that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

I think 40k had some really lengthy like A plus B equals C divided by the length of your unit's base blah blah blah you know like some silly equation.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

AOS those guys I think they liked math. I just think they were the kids in math class in school that were like we didn't get homework this weekend. Like they were that kid because it's kind of crazy. Like they have stuff that like you know oh it's gonna hit this unit and then anything within three of it gets D3 damage and it's like uh well we're doing a lot of math now okay who got what and you know so it was it was kind of funny that that we could see that but anyway the the the different ways that um you know we took that kind of identity helped me to get over some of those moments where it was like you know hey there's this real lengthy rule that's gonna come attached to this thing. It didn't feel like a gotcha because okay the wizard right I'm generically calling it a wizard um the wizard you know he's gonna be casting spells and one of the things that we said was he has two kinds of spells he has like a direct fire spell and then like a splash damage spell and like I don't need to know all that other I don't need to know exactly what it does. I don't need to know that big lengthy sentence but the splash damage is like well wait a second so splash damage how does that come into effect oh well in this game splash damage means you know X, Y, and Z. You know, and these are the types of things that can go along with that breaking stuff down that way for somebody who's never played this game before I am telling you from experience last weekend it is it's a lifesaver folks you will get more people involved in your game you will get more people playing the game with you at your locals you will get more people playing the game with you at your house your friend's basement your parents' basement your basement your garage whatever if you take the time to give them away to get involved and that's what it felt like this kind of did like I didn't feel like I was behind the eight ball coming into a game that I had never played before I felt like because we were describing things this way I could come up to speed pretty quickly and get involved and immersed into the tabletop. And I've said multiple times on this podcast that my biggest aspect whether I'm playing 40k whether I'm playing AOS whether I'm playing anything it doesn't matter competitive card games you name it the immersion is what's really really big for me and I think it's a big part of why we all play these games and I just thought it was really cool to have uh an experience and to use a structure that we've talked about to help gain kind of that immersion it was it was really rewarding Steve like how if I'm helping you this way how are people going to know how good at this game I am how are they going to know how smart I am at this game if I'm helping you because then I'm increasing your chances that you might beat me but see it wasn't it wasn't an advantage thing or a disadvantage thing because that's where like the other aspect of the things that we talk about here comes in

Micro-Strategy Plays

SPEAKER_01 26:48

right secondaries right and and having micro strategies right now I won't go into AOS secondaries because one I'm I'm still kind of reeling from how they do secondaries is a little different. It's kind of weird weird because I'm mostly a 40k player right um but their secondaries are you know essentially you do this to get you do this you get this many points and it leads to you can now do this to get this many points and you know you kind of keep going down this it's like a chaining effect to get like the secondaries and primaries flip flop right so you have colors on your primary locations and they flip flop like you score on green ones this turn and you score on red ones this turn then on top of that there's this aspect of like who goes first in a turn and there's kind of like risk reward associated to that. So you take all that together right all of that is live gameplay it's all you choose your secondaries you're a part of the things flip-flopping and where you are on each turn you essentially have a choice and there's risk reward for who goes first based on a roll off right and so you're you're not really giving away anything by talking through your macro a little bit and talking through your identity because you're gonna cap out on on scoring primary in this game I think pretty pretty handedly if if you've played a tabletop game you know the understanding of how to score primary is pretty pretty generic um but the secondary right that micro strategy you don't really have to give away a ton of that because it's an inner it's an interaction in the game. Now you run the risk of there being gotcha moments because you have to explain what you're doing from like a secondary perspective and why you're scoring those points and things like that. So there's transparency that has to be there. But I don't think you're uh if if you're telling somebody hey these units do this type of thing and they're capable of doing this um you know these units are I use them in this way or you know they're they're gonna you know be this type of a unit and then from from a macro perspective you really haven't given anything away game the game hasn't started it's you're not in the live interaction so in my opinion to your point you haven't done anything that's smart or not smart anybody can go and read the books maybe if they had them all right um anybody could go and read the books and and take that away it's it's generic knowledge that's it that's essentially out there you're just ensuring that you're gonna get an immersive game on the tabletop and then kind of that micro strategy is where you can then show and shine on how smart you are about the strategy that you're deploying onto the game um so to me no you're not giving away anything right I and I don't know from your perspective do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 30:05

So what I'm hearing from you is the you find it way more impressive to see how people apply all of the knowledge and all the homework they did ahead of time real time thinking on their feet as the game evolves and becomes this organic thing you find that way more impressive than just a you know I showed up I had my plan locked and loaded and I just execute it with no friction. And I'm I'm also hearing that you find it way more impressive when you use your knowledge to to bring others up and to to allow them to be the best version of themselves and and then if you still win that's even more oppressive because you you didn't withhold anything you helped the other person play their best game and then you were competitive anyways. Like that that's what I'm hearing and I'm I resonate very strongly with both of those.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

I mean that's that that's exactly what I'm saying. And I know these are kind of things that we've said in the past but it was really fun to kind of have an experience and I want to share that here you can I I hope you can hear in my voice how exciting it was because I felt like I was doing what I what honestly I hope others are doing listening is like I was trying to apply this right into this situation and it gave me a chance it was fresh it was new and I could do that um so one of the things that I I really liked about this again was this immersive factor right and so now I'm in a game that I've been playing for literally less than 24 hours meaning I I we spent one night building two combat patrols essentially worth of an army which um those bone reaper things might take the cake for the hardest GW model that any of us have ever put together I mean there were literally points where we were all looking at each other going I I I see the instructions I under I have a master's in engineering and an undergrad in engineering and I'm still struggling with what they're asking me to do here.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

And there may be some parts of these models that are probably not what I would call box art appropriate. So it just it is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

But anyway so we spent one night putting together the models right and we got them all ready and then I really quickly got them based uh got them primed got them uh actually I double primed them and then I zenithaled them which was pretty cool so technically I had three colors um on them um but uh you know I then um I then went and was like okay so they look cool enough that they can go onto the table right perfect next day we're like all right none of us wanted to put crap together anymore because at this point like I I swear to you we had fingers glued together and like bone they have a skull was the kneecap of one of these things like come on GW like nobody wants to put that thing on like couldn't you just molded that into its leg like seriously um but anyway because AOS is the hobby players game yeah yeah yeah well it was the annoyance game for those of us that aren't so crazy about actually I take the both the Joshes love putting models together it is part of the hobby they love and even they were like okay come on this is ridiculous um but anyway so we got it all together I got it to that stage and we're getting ready to play we go through our identity the macro aspect we get onto the table and things are going and I'm starting to learn kind of like you know the firing order of each turn and how things go and it's like it's clicking and I'm like cool this is working and then I we we the first game we played we didn't play with secondaries because one we had to do a little bit of research on how to use them properly because if I'm being honest it the core rule book didn't really explain it all that great. And both of us looked at each other and went um yeah that felt like it was like not like we didn't have to itch our brain to do that very much like it was just kind of like straightforward old school like you smash me I smash you we get into the center we all smash each other and someone's dead and up these bodies wound up laying on a a primary long enough so uh yep you won. Push models to center hope I roll better than you. Yeah exactly so it was kind of like at that we were like okay now we we okay we have to have the secondaries put into this right um so so then we get the the secondary cards and there's all these lists of things to do and I'm sitting here and I'm going all right I think I think now I think now I understand this game a little bit better. And so we set up again we remind each other here's here's our armies these are what they do these things go together you know here's our macros like what they like to do these are the types of things they go go right so we get into this game and we start like exchanging and we're looking at our you know basically they're like actions you have to do these secondaries little little things you have to do in order to score five points here five points there but they're very interactive with your opponent so like you have to do something and they kind of can't do something or you have to block them from doing something so it it was very very much like hey I'm gonna try to do this secondary which means this this this and this you know you I I have to have these and you can't have any or something along those lines. Yep. So now I'm not giving away exactly how I'm gonna do it but I'm talking about what I'm gonna do. And next thing I know the two of us are like full blown kind of playing just this scenario out on the board. It wasn't a like I'm here to math hammer you and I know my things should beat your things I'm here to list hammer you and I know I have the the Uber list which neither of us have the Uber list. We did find out later neither of us are playing anything close to meta um but it wasn't that type of a thing it the immersion was oh I want to see how this works out like oh those dudes just wiped me off the table back here. I'm pissed at them okay we're gonna go over there and and I think by doing this I can score this secondary and they're gonna run away and you know it was a lot of that like going back and forth it was amazing it it was it was awesome like honestly it truly was awesome and it was one of the most fun times I've had um playing tabletop not because it's AOS not because it's not 40k just because I I just really felt like you know I'm trying to not pat ourselves on the back here Eric because I need my head to fit through the doorway so I can go to bed after this.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

It sounds like you guys played very collaboratively and it sounds like it was about something that is very very important to you which is the the experience and that about doing something cool with your favorite people and it about being a a two person game and it's not that you don't like playing competitively but it's the it was about being there with the other person first and then you know we'll figure the other stuff out second. That's kind of what I'm hearing is it it prioritized the parts of it that that you get most excited about which I think is cool. I can hear it in your voice so I

Setting a Tone for the Game

SPEAKER_02 38:24

did rock back and I I've been thinking about this and it's something that I I wanted to bring up here right so alright I went into this experience with my cousin right and I'm playing with somebody that I have known for my entire life right like I was born before him so technically even though we're like I don't know I forget six months apart or something like that um you know technically I have known him my entire life right how would this go if I was playing against somebody that I don't know how would this go if I was playing in an LGS and the store owner paired me up because I happened to be there with an army and somebody else wanted to play you're hitting on the two questions I was going to ask one is that question the second one is so what that you what from this experience would you bring back to how we play 40k when we when we barn hammer? And actually third question what are you taking from this that you think you're gonna apply when 11th edition gets released and we're all having to learn newish rules for a new edition.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

So put a pin in the 11th edition thing because we're we're gonna get to that and that's gonna probably be a bigger you and me going back and forth discussion. But the first one um I I think that I would have to initiate this with somebody that I don't know right but I I think it was really quickly that like cousin Josh didn't know that I was going through this stuff in my head and I just kind of spitballed it with him and then all of a sudden he went through it. Now this is a this is a person who like I said has been studying this for months. He had all his time spent into these models and you know so so technically it it is even though I know him it is coming from a place of you know he knows more about this game and has a developed sense of identity in that faction more so than I do. And it really just took me saying hey I think this is what I want to do with these guys and I think this is what I want to do with these types of guys and these are the this is like the type of thing that I have and the next thing you know he kind of picked up on that and I think that that's the same interaction that I think would go really well if I was playing against somebody I didn't know. Um so I think that that's that's the first thing.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

No I'll compare that to my experience with the Crusade League and in just in playing in my LGS is so you're describing a you know setting the tone so to speak in a way of doing a session zero that I I think it's phenomenally cool that you guys did it. I I have my own version that I try and do when I'm playing my LGS as well. I'd say it's about a 60 to 70% hit rate like you're gonna run into some people where they just go nope I don't I don't play that way So here's the thing right so I think if I came up against somebody who was like nope I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Yep I think in my mind I would go okay well this is the type of game that this is gonna be right so it changes it right yes I want an immersive game on the table I want it to feel like we're reenacting I don't know blood sport or some sort in in this game right but if the person comes off the top rope and is like hey I don't do that like that's not what I'm here for well it's not my job to convince them that there's this other way to play just but it does help me to know right off the bat what type of game I'm in and so then my expectation changes. Yep and I I think that that's that's a key thing right is finding a way to understand the expectation of what type of game are you in. Because to your point not everybody is gonna want to play a game where they you know they they play this way right so like I I'll put myself on the table with you right you're gonna ask me about the XYZG XQ squared cubed thing inside of the stat line because that's what you want to know. Yep and that's okay and that's fine and and I think finding a way to like doing this walking through this kind of thing and finding a way to initiate that absolutely to your point I love the idea of setting the tone um you know I think that that helps to to kind of do that for you.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Yeah it 100% agree and it it matches my experience of it it gives you a heads up what the kind of game is going to be like depending on how the other person either reciprocates or doesn't when you start going through that. I had a game recently where I I'm pretty talkative when I'm playing of you know letting people know even if it's their turn hey this unit has a reactive move just a heads up as you're going through your movement phase. I had one guy I'm like I'm I can tell I'm aggravating him by how much I'm talking. I'm just gonna roll it back. Which is interesting because I'm usually not the chatty one. But it's you know, to your point, the you know, setting the tone and just seeing how the other person responds, it can give you a good idea of okay, this is what's going to be like. I I will also share. And I texted you this. Man, once you get these kind of experiences and you get that 60 to 70 percent of they respond to the kind of tone that you want, and you it it feels like the two of you get in the zone and you start jiving with each other's opponents. Man, that's awesome. And oh boy, is it frustrating when the other person doesn't reciprocate?

SPEAKER_00 44:31

I mean, that guy you just described about like if you're over talking, oh my god, I'm like literally the the the nightmare he didn't know he had.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Um that's funny. Um yeah, I mean, but there's an aspect of like I I think it's hard, right? It's hard when you're playing against somebody you don't know. Um, and so this is just something that I I think could be helpful. Um, I don't know. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna try it at at a local game store. I know that you and I have talked about you know coming down and maybe playing um in your LGS, and it's not that far from me. And to be honest with you, there's not many LGSs that are close to me, which is kind of why we barn hammer. Um so yeah, I I think that it's something that I'm going to try because I thought it was really cool how it came across.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Very cool. So it what from this would you uh would you take away and do you want to apply at future Barnhammers?

Post Game Retrospective

SPEAKER_01 45:36

So there was an aspect in there was an aspect in the end of one of the games where looking at the micro strategy and helping myself to understand where I thought that cousin Josh's micro strategy was versus my micro strategy, I actually wound up having a really cool debate with him about like if you do this and this and this, I think you win the game. Like, and he was like, But if I do that and that and that, I think you win the game. And I'm like, wait, are we are we basically like at this point we're we're kind of like saying that we've studied each other's micro strategy enough throughout the game that we think now we we see each other's end game. And the cool part was um we walked through it not in a way of like, you know, trying to gotcha you or anything like that. It was kind of like, okay, well, let's just see how this plays out. And we did. We we played it out, and it wound up going in um, you know, one of the direct I can't remember if it was in my direction or his direction or whatever. Um, but in the end, it was like, okay, but now we can roll that back. Okay, so here's what we saw on that. And if we'd have done this and done that, would it have changed, right? And I don't know, it was a cool way, like that interaction. I I think the takeaway is um in studying my opponent's micro uh strategy and trying to balance that against what I'm doing from a micro strategy perspective. I thought that that was a really cool way to kind of see the interaction on the board. Um, but from a retrospective, it taught me more about the game by being able to see it from a different lens, right? So, like when I if I was to put myself on the other side, okay, I can see why you want to do that. All right, what did I do with my guys to put you in that position where I made that available? I could break that down. And I I don't I don't know that I always do that in 40k. And I think that this um, like trying to apply this um over the course of like four games, um, trying to apply this type of interaction, um, I'm definitely taking that into my 40k because I know that in games that we've talked about on here, games that you and I have played before, um that's an area where I I've struggled. Um, and it gave me a way to kind of, I don't know, put it in my head that, you know, it's not just about me only focusing on my microstrategy, but it's about being able to see the other person's microstrategy too. Um, and then being transparent about that with each other and having that conversation. I learned a lot uh in that interaction. And and it was that that I think that was our third game, and it was a really big takeaway for me, and something that I'm gonna try to replicate in 40k.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Well, it it almost sounds like you guys did a version of what's called playing by intent, where you try and make sure that the information on both armies is equally shared, and as you're playing, you like you you don't give up your strategy, but you declare your intent of what you're trying to do so that the other person can can help determine if you can, in fact, do that or not. And part of what I found by playing that way is at the end of the game, it it's very clear where the mistakes were made, and it really comes down to what decisions were made, and you it makes it pretty easy to identify, oh, okay, these are the two or three decisions or whatever number of decisions that had I made a different decision there, the game would have gone differently. Like you you almost get to see the pivot points in the game based off of when someone made a decision and it routed the whole game down one decision tree, versus and then that leads to the cool conversations of, well, what if I'd made a different decision there?

SPEAKER_01 49:47

So something that came out of that interaction, right? Um, is my cousin's been texting me all week of like, hey, I think we did this thing wrong, or like I went back and read this, or I went back and looked this up, and and um, you know, I watched this thing on YouTube and someone explained this to me or whatever, right? And it's not because the intent was there, right? And like we were both trying to be very, you know, communicative of what we were trying to do at the end of these, you know, at the end of the game, that I don't feel like he's pressuring me, like, hey, jerk, you cheated here because you gave that thing two extra inches of movement when that should only happen during this particular instance, right? It it's not that, it's more of a hey, remember when we did this, and like I know what you were trying to do there, and it makes sense, but if you read it that way, but when I went back and I looked, this is how it is. Like, it gives you a learning moment, it gives you that way of doing it without like like he's essentially saying, Hey, you didn't you didn't read that rule right, and and I didn't. I didn't read the rule right. I I interpreted the rule the best I could. I played it out and communicated my intention with the rule, but when we went back and we had time to research it, the I didn't play the rule right. But but in the end, like it's it's not the end of the world that we didn't play a rule right. It's gonna happen. But the intent of what I was trying to do, yeah, it was the right intent. It's just you know, maybe it was supposed to move 10 inches instead of 12 inches, right? So it'll made the charge longer or something along those lines. But the the whole the whole aspect of that, I think that is again something that I'm gonna take away from this is um by to your point, playing with intent, I think um it it it really helps you to be a student of the game too.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

Well, and what I'm hearing is it it turns everything into a learning experience, which is uh one of the things that uh you know, I've seen this with you. I I'm definitely this way. It's one of the most fun parts of doing this. It's why we do it, to to learn, to get better, to to try and push ourselves mentally. And what I'm hearing is, you know, the the number one thing you got, you know, other than spending time with with your cousin and engaging in something he was very excited about, is you guys played in a way where you know, as someone who's coming in not knowing a ton about this, he helped you learn an awful lot about it really, really quick. Yes.

Rediscovering Joy for 11th Edition

SPEAKER_01 52:40

And and so now I'm gonna get to the 11th thing here, because I'm gonna I'm gonna segue what you're giving me the perfect point here to work off of. Um every one of us has a time when this game was new to them, when they were learning this for the first time, when they were getting, you know, all of this data that they were taking in, and like that that point i i it's not easy to replicate, right? Um because there's a lot of folks that have been playing this game for a very, very, very long time. But this past weekend I got a chance to feel that feeling again of I'm learning something again, it's cool, I don't know what this is, I'm discovering, right? That's what I'm going to use the most from this past experience going into 11th. And I've been jaded, uh jaded by 10th, jaded by ninth, like I've been jaded by these other um you know releases in the past, right? But one of the coolest things about this whole universe is being able to discover things and learn things and exercise your brain and create these experiences. And 11th's gonna give us a chance to do that again, good or bad, doesn't matter, right? It's gonna give you a chance to do that again, and you tell me other things that are out there in the world that offer that up to their player base as much as these tabletop games do, and I I will tell you that I I I don't think that there's many things out there in the world that do that, right? I and I I think that sometimes we forget about that, and so from my perspective, the biggest thing that I'm gonna take from this experience, yes, I'm gonna go try to apply the same thing. Learn what the identity of my faction in 11th is gonna be, then try to develop macro strategies around that, then work in live game for the micro strategy aspects and try to understand how to work and fine-tune and become a student of the game. All of that I'm gonna apply to 11th. But the biggest thing that I'm gonna take away from this that I want to apply to 11th is don't forget how cool it is that you get a chance to relearn, re-experience, rediscover aspects of something that you care so much about because I think that that's that's something that even like I've been missing, and this helped me to see.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

I'm gonna echo it back because I'm I'm resonating very strongly with what you're describing, which is you're describing the you know why why people do this, and I'm gonna wildly oversimplify it because we're approaching the end of the episode here, but it's I I think that people play whatever tabletop game for various different reasons. I think part of where you and I align is the why we do this is the joy of discovery and the the joy of exploring and the the joy of understanding and learning about this hugely complex game. And it's so I'm gonna push back a little bit on what you said, but it's gonna prove your point is I don't think it was anything unique to 9th or 10th edition, or potentially anything that's gonna be unique to 11th edition that that caused you to be jaded. I think it's the when the why shifted from discovery to you're gonna discover my boot on your neck because I'm here to prove how good I am.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Yeah. And I I resonate with that really strong. Like, why do you think I published my battle reports? And why do you think I discovered this weird way to, you know, to become schizophrenic and play games against myself? It's I wasn't able to enjoy the discovery aspect of the game through other forums because they would always turn into this hugely competitive thing where it's you know, no, I I I can't have you learning about my army because then I'm giving up my competitive advantage. Okay, like I'm competitive, don't get me wrong, I want to win, but I'm also here to learn and to just discuss like it's why I play like 12 different factions, because I I really enjoy the discovery part. So it what I'm hearing is that I'm with you of the addition changes, gives us all that opportunity to discover a new edition every couple of years, a new codex every couple of years. But the the trap is in what I'm hearing is there's almost a tone that we need to think about, you know, and obviously you go to a tournament, you're there to to prove, you're there to to compete. The discovery mode isn't isn't hugely appropriate for a competitive tournament environment. Like Crusade League, that's a gray area. I I can see why that lapsed into a kind of a tournament style play, but it almost sounds like, and I'm what ifing here, but there's a level of what it what are we doing here when you get together to play casually? And then trying to stick to that because I my observation and just hearing you talk about this, you know, this past weekend was the joy of discovery for you, and it it felt fresh, it felt fun, you reconnected with why you do this. And I think in some places that gets crowded out, and I I will admit to contributing that when when not everyone shows up to discover or people show up to prove themselves or or just otherwise on that they're not being as transparent about this this whole like you know, I I don't know, maybe I see things through rose-colored glasses, which makes sense and fits my personality, right?

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Um, but I don't know. I just I see it as an opportunity. I I see 11th as an opportunity, as a way to reinvigorate, as a way to re-engage. Um and that's what this past weekend was for me, and and it was exciting. Um, I got a text message from other Josh, and it was like, hey, I see that AOS has inspired you to get back to painting. And I've thought about that text message a lot because he's he's not wrong, right? And it's not about it's really not about AOS or 40k, but it was about, oh wow, I I felt like I discovered something, and through that I wanted to can like it it just was like this like ball rolling down the hill that just spiraled into next thing I know, I'm like, I bet you I can speed paint this whole army with these stupid marker things that just came out. How cool would that be if I had a whole army that was speed paint? And like it just kind of went there, right? And then next thing I know, I'm painting everything with the with the speed paint markers, which are kind of fun and cool and a little weird, and I have my whole reasons for not liking them, but I'm trying. Um, but yeah, I mean it just it it just kind of spiraled when I opened up that opportunity to learn something different. Um, it spiraled. And I I guess what I'm trying to say is I think that that's what I'm taking into 11th edition the most, not just from this game, but it gave me perspective of hey, I don't know what it is, but I love 40k, and I love playing these games and being a part of this, you know, community. Um, so you know what? I'm ready. I'm ready for the opportunity that 11th is gonna potentially bring.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

Yeah, well, it when I'm hearing it, you you enjoy the the wonder of it all, the discovery of it all, and that that's gonna be there when you fundamentally shake up the core rules of the edition.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Yeah, I'm kind of excited now. I I I wasn't, and now I am, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

That's awesome.

Takeaways and Outro

SPEAKER_02 1:01:21

So any final thoughts, because we're kind of right up on time. Or do you want to end on that that that sentimental uh note?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Um, I think my final thought would be uh just you know get out there and try. Try something different. If things are getting stale for you, there's lots of opportunity already. You don't have to wait for 11th edition. Um, if things are getting stale for you, try something else. Try try something different. And there's plenty of ways to to do things where you don't have to go to the to the you know games workshop store and buy you know new models. Use yours, but like try try boarding action, try you know, some of these other ways of playing, just learn something different. Um, it it was really eye-opening for me, you know, especially with how much we talk about things on this podcast and you know how much we play and things like that. Yeah, it was it was very exciting, and um, yeah, so my my my words of wisdom is if it's feeling stale, go go try something else for a second, because it's not gonna be stale when 11th comes out.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Very cool. So, final question. You want to know why I'm not as excited about AOS as you are?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

Is it because there's no emperor's children?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

It's because there's no emperor's children.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. I wanted to get to it before you did.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

It's because there's no emperor's children. I understand there's a slanesh army, it's not emperor's children.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

I actually think that maybe the Slanesh army is a little more whips and chainsy in this one than I've looked into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

I am not interested at all in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

You'll just keep your freakiness to 40k. I get it. I get it. Perfection, not freakiness. Oh my god. All right, everybody. Have a great week. We'll see you next week. Take care, everyone.