33 - There Is Only War... and Middle Child Syndrome

In this episode of the "Grown Men Playing With Toys" podcast, Erik and Steve do something they probably should have seen a therapist about first — they apply the science of birth order psychology to the entire Warhammer 40K universe.

The guys break down the stereotypes of oldest, middle, and youngest children and then systematically sort every faction in the game into one of those three buckets. Spoiler alert: some feelings may have been hurt in the making of this episode.

Along the way they tackle:

• The Big Three — why the Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos super-factions map almost perfectly onto the birth order archetypes, and why it works both in lore AND on the tabletop
• Daddy's Best Boy — The unambiguous oldest child of 40K and why everyone else is basically wearing their hand-me-downs
• The Forgotten Middle Children — They're here but didn't think anyone noticed
• Youngest Child Energy — They're trying so hard to outshine their older siblings while also enjoying (expecting?) being babied by GW.
• Lore vs. Tabletop — why several factions have a split personality depending on whether you're reading the books or rolling dice
• A formal apology to Cousin Josh — just kidding, there isn't one

Whether you're a firstborn who color-codes their army list, a middle child who plays Orks while munching on a choice crayon or two, or the youngest who expects GW to buff your faction at every dataslate — this one is for you.

Check out our other content: https://gmpwt.blog/ https://www.youtube.com/@GrownMenPlayingWithToys

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Just did the game's workshop version of like a real famous meme, like the one doesn't just go to Mordor. It's one doesn't just get into AdMac.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

We say hold our dice. We're your hosts, Eric and Steve. Alright, Eric. How are we feeling today, buddy?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

We're feeling overlooked. Overlooked?

SPEAKER_05 0:56

Like as in something that got missed, or as in feeling like you're not being heard.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

As in, for the past couple of months, you keep telling me that despite the actual birth order of me and my siblings, that I act an awful lot like a middle child. So I decided to embrace that, and I'm feeling overlooked.

SPEAKER_05 1:20

Okay. Um that's interesting. Alright, so where are we going with this one?

SPEAKER_03 1:27

You tell me because we're doing another episode that you came up with the topic idea on, which is you wanted to talk through the differing stereotypes of oldest, middle, and youngest children, and then play a game where we go through all of the different factions in 40k and decide if they are stereotypically most like an oldest, a middle, or a youngest child.

SPEAKER_05 1:51

Alright, so I find this just side note. I find this stuff absolutely interesting. So um, I myself am a middle child. Right. And so um I obviously have all of the middle child syndrome things that are going on in my world. So I oftentimes talk to Eric about this, um, because Eric is an oldest child, and sometimes when he starts describing situations that he gets in, um he he very much may be the most middle child oldest child I've ever met. So that's kind of some background information. So all right, so uh okay, let's see, how how do we do this then?

SPEAKER_03 2:35

So let me so why don't why don't you start by describing the three different stereotypes? Because you actually you studied some of this in school. So why don't you're the guy with the framework this week, which I find hilarious, because for the second week in a row, you're playing my part. So why don't you walk us through you know the stereotypes as you see them, why you got excited about this topic? You you sent me a you know an Instagram reel beforehand of kind of like the you know your three kids skiing down the the slope type thing. So why don't you do the wind up and then once you've done that, I'll actually launch us and navigate us through each of the armies.

SPEAKER_05 3:14

So there's a lot of facets to this one, but uh I guess to kind of sum things up, we'll do we'll do an oldest, a middle, and then a youngest, and we'll just try to kind of generalize things into those three categories.

Oldest, Middle, and Youngest Steroetypes

SPEAKER_05 3:29

Um, and so from an oldest perspective, um, and yes, to Eric's point, I did some research on how to um how to work with managing different types of individuals based on their birth order. So that was that was a little bit of research that I've done in my past. But so from that, right, the oldest tends to be the non-rule breaker, meaning um they like this, everything has to be done by the book. Um, they had the most pressure on them growing up, they had the most um visibility because at one time they were an only child, and we are purposely not having that subfaction. Um, or maybe we will, I don't know. Hmm, that might actually come up later. Stick a pin in that one. Um, but anyway, so they they spent time as an only child, they went through all of the shades of, you know, as the family grew, they grew in responsibility. They tend to be the one that that thinks that they have to bear that responsibility, both from their parents' point of view and from their own point of view. So the typical oldest child tends to be the one that, you know, is a little bit more um by the rules, right? They are they're a little bit more dedicated to staying on the prim and proper and on that, you know, nice straight non-dotted line. So the next child, which I am very akin to, um, is the middle child. And to your point, um, I'm sure everybody has seen either a meme or a reel or whatever it is out there of you know, the the parent is videoing their their oldest child, and they're like, Oh, look at my firstborn, and they're I don't know, skiing comes up all the time up here in the northeast. They're skiing perfectly, and everything is going great, and you know, they're going down the mountain so nice, and then they pan over and they're like, and this is my middle child, and it's like full-blown Leroy Jenkins straight down that mountain. We are not going to the pizza, we are straight French fry, right down the mountain, and you're just hauling it. And the to to what point that that does describe the middle child a little bit. I think um from a perspective of you know, growing up, those rules are maybe a little more laxed. Your parents have already done this before. Um, so you know, they're they're they're kind of like not going through the motions because that's that's not fair. Um, but they're they're they're just not as attentive because you know, it's the second time they've done it. They've seen things before, they have experiences, they got scars on their back. So, what does that do for the middle child? Well, the middle child oftentimes actually goes along with your your nice uh opening feeling there, Eric. Uh, the middle child oftentimes can feel overlooked or not in the limelight, right? The oldest child gets a lot of the um, you know, the accolades or the um the prestige because kind of they're the first ones to accomplish a lot of things, and then the middle child comes along. So oftentimes they're they're kind of playing to the beat of their own drum a little bit. Um they really they really don't tend to follow in those same norms. They can be uh sometimes a little um outgoing in in good and bad ways. Um, so it's it's very much um a uh a relationship to being the middle child from you know how how the first child generally tends to be. The middle child tends to kind of find opposition to that. So those are the first two. The third framework, um, which is the most interesting framework, and I grew up, by the way, in a family of three. So I have an older sibling and a younger sibling. Um so I can tell you from experience how this one works. Um, the youngest tends to be of a different mindset. Um, you know, oftentimes they're the last uh to come along, obviously. So, you know, the parents want to either support them in a different way, make sure they have everything. Oftentimes, maybe it's a little bit later in the parents' lives, so they tend to provide a little bit more nurturing and a little less naturing uh to this child uh in the dynamic. Um, so what does that do? Um, well, it can create things like uh entitlement, it can create things like a little bit of um obstruction to authority, uh, wanting to um do things at their own pace. Um, but it also does things like it create it gives them a lot of creativity um in that they they will find ways to get around things and they will find ways to uh exploit. Um, because you know, the firstborn had all the rules, the middle child's kind of a little bit rebellious. Well, now you got another child, and that one's gonna have to find its own path. So it's gonna it's gonna work around those other two paths quite often to try and find its own way of you know uh establishing itself inside of the the familiar hierarchy, and so it these are kind of the background, if you will, to to firstborn middle child and your last born child.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Hey, I'm so proud of you. You just did an eight-minute verbal spreadsheet.

SPEAKER_05 9:26

I tried, I really tried, and this is something that I am very excited about. So I'm sorry for the diatribe, everyone, on you know, the social hierarchy of uh, you know, of of your family. Can I just touch on the uh on single children for a second? Because I think that that actually now that I'm thinking through it, might come up in this conversation. Go for it. So a single child, right? They can have all of that, they can have every aspect of everything that I just went through for eight minutes or whatever it was, because they they get to experience everything, uh, right, through their through their family bond, right? They get to experience all of the rigor and the structure. They get to experience not having the structure and and allowing some freedoms, and they then they also get the experience being being the only one, right? And and having that kind of um pressure, but also support in in different ways. So um, so you can have an only child that can have experienced all of these things. So, okay. Interesting. I won't I won't take it any further because this is the Gurnman Playing with Toys podcast, not the sit down and let's talk about the social constructs of your family podcast.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

I still think that was a cool wind up. I'm I'm very excited for this. I think that was really cool, and I love the fact that you're the one who brought the the nerdy framework this time. I it this was really cool, so thank you for that.

Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos Birth Order

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Yeah, of course. But applying it, applying it to the the subject that we usually talk about, which is 40k. So, first observation, and I think this one is hilarious, and it came to me when I was building out my spreadsheet that you know just to make sure we talked about all the factions, which is I think there are several level levels of how this applies to the game of 40k and the different factions. You ready?

SPEAKER_05 11:26

Yeah, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Alright, so the first one the factions are grouped into three logical categories of Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos. Yeah. Prepare to wager which of those three fit into which of the three categories you you rattled off.

SPEAKER_05 11:46

So man, this this is good. Alright, so the way that I see it, right, um the Imperium is always gonna be maybe this is gonna be controversial. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Alright, so spoiler alert to everything, that this is gonna burn a little bit for folks who take their factions a little bit too seriously. We we are this is tongue-in-cheek. We are deliberately gonna make fun of pretty much every faction. And it's about to start now.

SPEAKER_05 12:22

Yeah, I so I go back and forth with the Imperium, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Because of the letter ript Tater Chip. Come on.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

They they're in my mind, they are the youngest child. Um I was gonna take that a completely different direction. So in my mind, they're the youngest child, and here's why. Um, I think that there's an aspect of if you go lore-wise, let me let me caveat that. If you go lore-wise, I think they're the youngest child. If you go on tabletop factions from a perspective of how they're played, that might be different. So lore-wise, and and I'm gonna add the lore caveat into this, but I'm then gonna focus on um, I'm then gonna focus on the tabletop side of it. Um, but lore-wise, so in my mind, right, they kind of act a little bit like like a youngest child, right? They've come along, they're now in the universe, they're now the ones that are gonna tell everybody how things are gonna go. And, you know, they're they're they're you know, uh big big papa e is like, yep, yep, you guys are the greatest things since sliced bread. Everybody, you know, anybody that doesn't believe what you're doing is that's heresy. You can't do that. So eliminate them, right? Um so so from that perspective, I think that the Imperium lore-wise is has definitely got some youngest child vibes. Now, tabletop? Tabletop, I think that they they definitely are more old as child when it comes to like tabletop equivalent.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Now you're speaking my language because I and and I'm glad you brought up the caveat of lore versus the general how how the community and games workshop treats them as far as you know model releases, quality of rules, the way they tend to play. I had Imperium Pegdus. That's the firstborn, that's Daddy's best boy.

SPEAKER_05 14:22

Yeah, and and you know, like so, and and the reason why I said in my mind, right, because I I tend to be lore heavy first, right? Um, yep, but but yeah, I think that you know, from a GW perspective, tabletop gaming perspective, right? The Imperium, 100%. There's my best boy, you're doing everything right, you're keeping the the the whole game afloat, you know. You're you're you're just you're just showing everybody else how they should be, right? Roughly around 50% win rate all the time. You guys are kind of just you're in you're in the niche. I can count on you, I can give you the responsibility of being the poster child and having 10 billion models, and uh yeah, you're good with it. And and so from that perspective, tabletop-wise, yeah, 100%. They are definitely firstborn child, and they love to be. They love well, they kind of love to be. So do we get do we get to get into like all the like individual factions?

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Because then it gets a little weird. Let's do the top three and then we'll we'll dive into each one. So we and I like the lore versus you know how that they're treated in the larger community and by GW. So it sounds like lore wise, Imperium, youngest, how they're treated and on the tabletop and all that, more like the oldest.

SPEAKER_05 15:42

Yeah, I I mean, so so if we keep going, right? So the next one I'm gonna pick is pick on is Xenos, right? Yep. And so Xenos is um from a lore perspective, I think they believe they are the oldest child, right? Well, they kind of are, right? They've been around.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

I was gonna say, aren't they just an inversion of what you said for the Imperium?

SPEAKER_05 16:04

Exactly. So they've been around a long time, and they kind of have all their ways and they're setting them, and they're kind of cranky because you're waking them up, and like all these other reasons, right? Why they feel like, oh my god, this youngest child has come along. And by the way, oldest children and youngest children tend to be the ones that that have you know the biggest issues in family dynamic. Um, but anyway, I digress. So they too in lore have that same problem. So it's kind of fitting, it's really interesting to see how from a lore perspective it it kind of you know comes out that way. Now, here's where I throw the wrench in, kind of, right? So just like how the lore for the Imperium, you know, was uh youngest child lore, oldest child tabletop, I think Xenos is young has has straight up youngest child vibes when it comes to tabletop. Yep. Um I'm I'm not taking uh a shot at anyone, but I you know, I I frequent Reddit. I read the things, right? If if I'm being honest, and I play Xenos factions too, so it's this is taking a shot at myself, I guess, a little bit. Y'all, we tend to have straight up youngest child vibes. We are very worried about what the oldest child is doing. We are very worried about whether or not they have more than we do. We are very much worried about establishing ourselves as something different. Uh, meanwhile, we are worried about what the others have. Um, yeah, it it's uh it's very much like tabletop-wise youngest child vibes. Now, here's the interesting part. They're very different from from the other factions when it comes to tabletop-wise, which is why I think that they they it holds up that they're their youngest, you know, the youngest child. You're your in my mind, your more creative adaptations of strategy on the table tend to come from the Xenos factions. Um, just the different ways that they play. I mean, the Eldar with the things that they do, the Necrons with the things that they do.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Um well, I guess Votan kind of counts, but I'm we'll dive into the details with the specific ones, don't worry.

SPEAKER_05 18:30

But I could go all night about this subject. Um, but yeah, so I I think that from a tabletop perspective, you you definitely have youngest child kind of perspective with the Xenos factions.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

So do you want to know what I find really, really humorous here? Sure. You kind of just proved my intro right. You want to know why? Why? Oh, because you're oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

I'm Mr. Chaos in our playgroup. Yeah, well, for sure. Um, and and I think to that aspect, I I think chaos does uh on both lore and tabletop fit kind of the middle child aesthetic, right? So I mean, look at the reason why they are chaos, right? You know, it's a very middle child thing. Like, hey, I don't like the way that you're doing that. I'm gonna do it my way. And I think that I'm very, very right in doing that, and I'm gonna go play to the beat of my own drum. I don't I don't need all of this structure, and I don't need all of this, you know, uh what I could potentially perceive as not being the right way to do something. I'm I'm gonna go kind of fumble through this whole thing and and get all tangled up in the warp and get myself all messed up, right? And so um, you know, I think from that perspective, they they're they're kind of interesting because they fit both sides, lore and tabletop. I would say they they are very much middle child.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

They are both overlooked and the rebel at the same time.

SPEAKER_04 20:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

I mean that the the glove fits it that one to me was almost perfect with how and it just popped out of when I built my little spreadsheet. They were the center column, and it just so happened I accidentally oriented of Imperium on the left, chaos in the middle, Xenos on the right. So depending on which way you want to read it, it maps perfectly with the way you described it.

SPEAKER_05 20:33

It's fun to think of it that way because then, like, so here I know this could kind of make some people's feelings a little hurt, this whole conversation we're having, right? But it's not about that. Think about it this way. Think about that dynamic when you're playing the game. How cool is that, right? Like, uh, all right, I'm playing chaos, Eric. You're you're playing chaos now. Let's put you in the driver's seat, right? You're playing chaos, and I'm playing uh Imperium Guard, right? Imperial guard. And you know, you're coming to the table with a little bit of a chip on your shoulder, like, oh, these guys are just stupid puny humans, right? They should not stand up to me. You know, I'm I'm I'm in Terminator armor for you know for crying out loud. There's there should be nothing here, you know. I'm I'm doing this my way. I'm gonna I'm going to destroy them, right? You can use this to absolutely enhance the immersive factor of your gameplay, which I think is really cool.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Or to push the buttons of your opponent, not that I'm recommending it, but I don't suggest doing that.

SPEAKER_05 21:42

I'm trying to do this on the fact that you know I think it's kind of fun, you know, it's kind of cool. You know, then you take the the little puny humans and you know, you put it put them from their perspective. Like, we're following all our rules. I'm gonna get seven orders across this entire line, and blah blah blah, I'm doing everything right and You know, purge the chaos, right? It just adds it can add to it. So I don't know. That's how my brain works with some of these things, and and I don't know, I get excited about it. It's kind of cool to see the see the patterns as they're forming.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

All right. So let's do our deep dive now. Now, and I I'm you know, true to form with the stereotype you said earlier. I'm gonna impose a little bit of rule just so that we don't go three hours long with this. Of you get two minutes, maybe 90 seconds per faction. And you can go serious if you want. I am definitely going to be less serious with my analysis. So, which one do you want to deep dive into first? Imperium, chaos, or xenos?

SPEAKER_05 22:44

Um, let's do the Imperium first. I think let's let's let's stay with what I what I consider to be the oldest yet youngest, or youngest yet oldest.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

All right, and we'll we'll go back and forth. We'll just I'll read a name and whichever one of us has stronger feelings will jump in. Okay, deal. And I'm gonna lead with one that I know you are gonna have a hot

Space Marines

SPEAKER_03 23:09

trigger on. So Space Marines. That's rough, dude.

SPEAKER_05 23:14

All right, so here's my thing with Space Marines. I actually love Space Marines. Space Marines are the reason why I kind of got into this game, right? Um, I I mean, Cousin Josh is the reason why I got into this game 100%. But I love the idea of like what Space Marines kind of represent, and I just think it's cool, right? So I do want to caveat that right off the bat. But I mean, y'all take yourself so seriously. I mean, the the I am faction aspect of Space Marines comes out so much, right? Um, with with with those factions, and so you know, the the you know, do it by the books, do it, do everything has to have this perfect sequence on the battlefield and so structured and and and your movements have to be so precise and like the amount of precision that goes with a space marine army, um, to me, is just like that screams like firstborn child with all of the responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

All right, I'm just I'm gonna take the less serious tone because I think it's hilarious that you're the one being real serious and and thoughtful here. Space Marines are the firstborn because they get all the new stuff and everyone else gets their hand-me downs, and they always have the most and most perfect stuff.

SPEAKER_05 24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

They're daddy's best boy.

SPEAKER_05 24:47

As a middle child, though, I gotta tell you, hand-me-downs are amazing. And I used to spend half my childhood stealing my brother's clothes because his were cooler than mine. I had zero fashion sense.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

So there's nothing wrong with it.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

So we both agree, Space Marines, oldest child. Yeah, for sure. 100%. Yeah. All right.

Non-Codex Compliant Marines

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Do you want to break out the non-codex compliant ones individually, or do you want to do them as a group? So I'm gonna do them as a group.

SPEAKER_05 25:20

And this way that we don't turn this into a three-hour podcast because Steve gets real excited about silly topics. Um what do they call it? What is I mean, I've seen it special snowflake marines. Yeah, yeah. They call them special snowflake marines, right? All the different factions, and everybody gets all wound up about it, right? And I think there's an aspect of that where um I kind of alluded to this earlier. These are the only children of 40k. They are 100% the only children of 40k. Um, they they get all the same perks of being perks and negatives, of being a firstborn. They get to kind of act like they're different and that they don't fall in line with all the rest of the firstborn faction. So they they get some middle child aspects in them, and then they have this aspect where they they you know they expect to kind of be treated differently, but with the same level of respect as everything else, and with the same everything that everybody else has. So they have some younger child aspects to them. So I think default is they they are just the own they're the only child of 40k, these special snowflake marines, because they they want they can have all of those assets, they can have everything. Um, because they just they just fall within every every aspect, and and that's you know, in my mind, what makes them an only child.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

I like it. All right, I do have one adder onto that, which is with the exception of space wolves, and then you just swap the only child to the parents that never had kids, but they adopted a dog and spoiled it.

SPEAKER_05 27:20

I like it. Yeah, or in my case, horses.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah. Nope, nope, it's gotta be a dog.

SPEAKER_05 27:26

Why has it gotta be a dog?

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Space wolves. Yeah, but uh okay, well they ride the the dogs like Calvary, they ride them like horses. I I may go back to the shtick later on. That they are the they're the weird couple down the street that never had kids, but like they walk around with a purse dog and they throw a birthday party for the dog.

SPEAKER_04 27:48

No offense to anybody that throws birthday parties for their dog and puts them in their purse.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

Alright. Alright, go ahead. Um, so we'll go alphabetical now. So Adeptus.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

How many listeners are we gonna lose tonight?

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Uh is it that probably a decent amount. Now it we're doing all this tongue in cheek, but 100%.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

All right.

Sisters

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Adeptus or artas, the sisters of battle.

SPEAKER_05 28:18

Youngest child. I I I think that they are they so desperately want to be a space marine, but they're not. Um they so desperately want to be do things their own way and be different, but they don't. Um, some of their strategies and tactics and things like that mimic other factions. Um, yeah, to me, they just straight up give off youngest child wives to me.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

I can buy

Custodes

SPEAKER_03 28:51

it. Uh custodies.

SPEAKER_05 28:54

Oh, they are a hundred percent oldest child. It doesn't even get like they are they're not just the oldest child, but they're the oldest child of all the cousins.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Like when when you get the when you get the family reunion together. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 29:11

When you get the family reunion together, they're the ones that are over in the corner, like, so all my nieces and nephews are still in grade school, but my second year of college just went excellent. And I aced my exams. Like, they're that, they're that. That's what they are, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:29

That's also why they're the most boring.

SPEAKER_05 29:31

They're they're they're also the the oldest child at the family reunion that wants to like hang out at the adult table, but isn't quite there yet. But they think that they are, like they're trying to be cool enough to be an adult, but they're not quite there. Yeah, for sure. Oldest child. Like it 100%.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

All

AdMech

SPEAKER_02 29:50

right, admec.

SPEAKER_05 29:54

Adopted.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Oh, good. I like it. I was gonna say say step stepchild.

SPEAKER_05 30:01

Um stepchild works, yeah. That I mean kind of the same same lines, right? I mean, I I alright, this is gonna be weird because I I and I I love I love admec. I have zero qualms with them, but they they don't necessarily fit the aesthetic of the rest of the of the rest of the the Imperium. They just they're they're just kind of different. Um, and that's okay. I mean it's cool, right? You know, um, but yeah, it's it's it's you know they're they're not space marines, they're not, you know, guard, they're they're obviously not sisters, so they just kind of are in their own little world. Like they're they're the middle child. I know we joked about like stepchild and adopt it, but but they're probably more middle child than anything inside of the Imperium, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

They they are the kid that the parents don't know what to do with because they don't fit in nicely with the rest of the Imperium, and it's not because they're not cool. I find them I don't know that I enjoy playing them, I find them very, very interesting, but it doesn't seem like they get treated all that well.

SPEAKER_05 31:16

So a true story, right? And it's funny. When I graduated with my masters, my dad told this story of how I was the kid that they were worried about. So I can feel for the adback a little bit, because I get it. You know, they they're they're like you said, that the they're the kid that the the parents aren't really sure yet what to do with, right? You know, I don't know. Maybe they're uh maybe they're gonna be an engineer, maybe they're gonna be uh, I don't know, sanitation worker or something. I don't know, right? Um, but yeah, yeah, who knows? It's just one of those things where it's like we're gonna we're just gonna see how this works out. Um yeah, definitely middle child if I want to put them on our our little structure.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

All right, I'll take the

Deathwatch

SPEAKER_03 32:08

next one. And it it technically should have been a part of Special Snowflake Marines, but I'm doing it separately. And this one, you can you can verbally smack me down if this is a little bit too mean. You ready? Yeah, I'm nervous. Why am I nervous, Eric? Death Watch. They are your oldest child's invisible friend. Yeah. I well, okay. Because they're the it's really just your oldest child, but you end up buying two of everything because your oldest child is like, hey, can you get one for my invisible friend as well? And it's really just space marines reorganized with slightly different flair to get you to buy more models than you normally would so you can build your kill teams. I mean they have cool pain schemes though. I I think I think they are cool, I think they are interesting, I probably would enjoy playing them because they're halfway to Grey Knights, but they are definitely just the Space Marines invisible friend.

SPEAKER_05 33:13

That's interesting. Yeah, I I like where you've gone with that because it it it you're right, right? They they have all of that same structure, and it's not like it's not like um it's not like they would be like a middle child or a youngest because they don't go down those routes, right? They don't deviate, they don't they stay with the structure, they stay with the you know, with the the rigor and and kind of the same imperial responsibilities, right? Um but they're just they're not exactly the same, but they're close. So I like yeah, I I could we're creating invisible friend factions. This is this is awesome. We are way down a rabbit hole now.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

This is great. Yep. All right, you you have to do the next one because it's too close

Grey Knights

SPEAKER_03 34:07

for me. Grey knights. So grey knights are middle child, 100%. I I think so too. They are the archetype of the forgotten middle child. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_05 34:22

I mean, the grey knights are so cool in all their own ways, and they do things that are so different, and yet they just don't quite get all the same things. And it's just it's just Yeah, they're Middle Child. I mean, if I had to look up Middle Child in the dictionary, Grey Knights would definitely be right there underneath of the description.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

You know, that and we can revisit this at the end, but so far I am granted, I play Space Marines, and I play a lot of armies, so there's gonna be some overlap. But we're there's quite a few of my armies that are getting the middle child designation here. And Grey Knights is one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_05 35:10

Well, I started this off with saying, like, you you probably are the most middle child that we have, um, even though you're firstborn. You know what's interesting though? Like, I'll be honest, like, we're we're shooting this from the hip. Like, I I don't have any structure to what I'm saying, which is probably why it's not cohesive. Um, but um it it is interesting how easily it feels like they fall into a spot, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:38

I agree with you, and it I've actually I'll take the next one because the next one fell into a nice neat spot for me as well. Although this one is kind of like Death Watch, it might be a little bit on the mean side. You ready?

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Sure.

Imperial Agents

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Imperial agents, they are the stuffed animal that get passed down to each of the kids in the family. They're the momentum. Well, like they're the teddy bear that you bought for your oldest that they outgrew, so you gave it to the middle child that they outgrew, so you gave it to the youngest child, and now you're hanging on to it so you can give it to the grandkids. It's the family mom memento, because they're not quite a real faction, and everyone else in the Imperium seems to take from their models and and soup them in when they're good.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

We've created invisible friends, and now we have a hand-me-down family heirloom.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

Yeah, you you better be careful. This is like two episodes in a row where you took the reins on the idea and the structure, and I'm enjoying being the one who just throws verbal hand grenades and blows up the structure. On your rain now. You are gonna have no listeners at the end of this. Alright. Alright, next one, and I'm very curious

Imperial Guard

SPEAKER_03 36:52

your thoughts on this. Imperial Guard.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

I think they're middle child. Ooh, I had my thoughts, and they are different.

SPEAKER_05 37:05

Yeah, I don't know, this one's tough for me. I'm going middle child. And and here's here's why I'm going middle child. So as a middle child, I think I think wrongly. Um, but sometimes you can feel like your time and your your presence is expendable because you know you're not getting all the attention like the youngest, and you don't have the same responsibility levels like you would if you were the oldest. So you're just kind of there. Um, and that's kind of how I feel about Guard. They're just kind of there.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

Alright, so here's my take, and I'm gonna disagree with you a little bit, and this one might take a little close to home. I think Imperial Guard are an oldest child that is branded to for middle children players because they really get a very maybe not the same, but they are second to Space Marines in terms of favoritism when it comes to models and rules and everything else, but they have the overt, you know, army fantasy of I'm the underdog that nobody appreciated.

SPEAKER_05 38:22

So I think that that's why I say that they're a middle child, because I to me they have middle child syndrome. Um and it's in that like that aspect of like you're still gonna get all the same stuff, but you didn't you didn't get the cool power armor, you you got flashlights. Um, you know, second time around, you're you're wearing, you know, this the the things that your parents kept, you know, from when your brother outgrew them, right? Those types of feelings, right? I think I think even when I play guard, that is kind of how I feel, like when I have them on the table. Like, okay, so I'm facing the Space Marines who have ridiculously awesome stuff, right? And I have stuff that looks like normal human things that we have in today's world, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Um I think you're proving my point, which is the power fantasy of Guard is you're playing as a middle child. But I actually think, at least for 10th edition, with all the latest releases, all the refreshes, and how good their codex is, and all the new detachments they've gotten, they're being treated like an oldest child. So I I agree with you though, on their power fantasy is you feel like a middle child when you're playing them.

SPEAKER_05 39:46

I'm gonna have to look myself in the mirror next time that I uh put the card on the board.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yeah, look at that. I got to zing you back. You've been calling me a middle child, I get to call you an oldest child. I don't know how I feel about that. My identity is shaken to the core.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Alright. Last

Imperial Knights

SPEAKER_02 40:04

one in the Imperium. Imperial Knights.

SPEAKER_05 40:09

I mean, they're they're they're kind of the oldest child to me. I mean they they're not ever forgotten. They're always there, they're always a thing, right? Um, so so one aspect of the oldest child like dynamic is that um sometimes it can feel a little lonely. It can feel like you know, you have all this responsibility and all your siblings get away with everything, and you're there to kind of support the structure. I feel that way about knights, I uh Imperial Knights specifically. Um I feel that they they kind of they're there, and they're there to support the Imperium, and they're there to do the work, but they gotta do it with a lot less help. It's kind of almost like they're expected to be good all the time, and that's definitely a thing that I think a lot of oldest children fall into. Um, so I think that from that perspective, the knights kind of they get that they get one of the like not so great things that that oldest children get, um, which is you know this expectation that they're they're just gonna be good and they're just gonna be there and they're gonna be dominant, and you're you're only gonna be able to do it with, you know, six or seven models on the board, and you know, that's what you're gonna get. And and go figure out life. And oh, by the way, make sure that everybody else works too, because you can supplement them into other things.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

All right, I'll give you that one. I uh this one I wasn't sure. I had just written question mark in my notes, so I I like that. Also, not that the hobby side applies to all these for these evaluations, but I think knights are the ones that are ex like they're all centerpiece models, so there almost seems to be this expectation of if you bring a knight, like that thing has got to be hobbied to the nth level.

SPEAKER_05 42:14

So that's an aspect of factions too, right? Is that like so so you said admec earlier, right? And and I'll touch on them. Like, one doesn't just get into admec. Like like, I mean, I I guess you could, anybody could do anything, right? But like if you're a seasoned player, you know what you're getting into there from a hobby perspective. And I think that oftentimes that can kind of put them in the like, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put all my eggs in that basket.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

I'm not gonna put, you know, I'm not gonna treat them like I'm not gonna treat You just did the games workshop version of like a real famous meme, like the one doesn't just go to Mordor. It's one doesn't just get into admec. It's real, right?

SPEAKER_05 43:06

Like, like how many stories have you heard in in your tenure in this universe of somebody who's like, yeah, I just got into 40k, and the first thing I did was I bought an admec army.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

Oh, it uh there's an admec player in my local store, and that guy is hardcore because his army is more expensive than anyone else's, sometimes more expensive than in any two people's armies. It's harder to hobby and it's harder to paint.

SPEAKER_05 43:33

I mean, it's a dedicated, it's a dedicated thing. Um, it's gonna beat to its own drum, though. It's gonna do things differently. So I think it's still in the right category when it came to Middle Child. I'm just saying it's one of those things of like you know, you just you just you don't get into admec just to admec. And I think that there's an aspect of nights is kind of the same way, but with a different flair, right? So back to nights, right. You do just get into nights because when you walk into the store, little Steve can't help himself and will go and spend stupid amounts of money on the really big cool model because I want to paint it and put it on my shelf.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Yep. I want to play the big stompy robot. Yeah, 100%. Alright. So where do you want to go next? That's the Imperium. Do you want to go to Chaos or Xenos? We'll leave Chaos for last. Let's go Xenos. Alright. Do you want to start from the top of the alphabet or the bottom? You pick. Dealer's choice. Well, if we start from the top, I'm gonna have a zinger from the get-go. So we should probably start from the bottom.

T'au

SPEAKER_03 44:45

No, we should start from the bottom. Alright.

SPEAKER_05 44:47

Tao. Ooh, Tao? Youngest child. They are constantly telling everybody how hard they got it and that they're the most forgotten thing and all this other stuff, but yet they can sit back there with a dang gun line and those stinking rail guns and still unload. And it doesn't matter what what version of the game you're playing. They are there, they are present. They may not be the most dominant thing on the board, but they got it. They they get rules, they get things, they get new mech suits. People love them. They are they are social butterflies of GW.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

I'm aligned. I I kind of had them pinned sim s uh similarly as a potential youngest child.

SPEAKER_05 45:38

I'm interested. It's funny that you're not pushing back on any of my things yet, really.

SPEAKER_03 45:44

We may get to a couple. Okay.

Tyranids

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Tyranids.

SPEAKER_05 45:47

Um tyranids right now in 10th, or tyranids in 9th.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

Why don't you stipulate however you see fit? This may be one where I push back.

SPEAKER_05 46:00

So I think that I think that tyranids are an older child with middle child tendencies.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

Yeah, I I actually had listed like whatever stereotype you say I am, that's what I think tyrannids are.

SPEAKER_04 46:26

That's exactly what I thought when I was like going through that in my head. I'm like, oh, how do I describe Eric? Because that's what they are.

SPEAKER_03 46:35

Yep. It's it's an oldest child in a lot of ways, with just some things where you're like, that doesn't fit. That's more of a middle child thing that you have that that's interesting and unique.

SPEAKER_05 46:47

Yeah, there's a lot of things where you kind of with tyranids, you kind of go, huh? You you're you don't you don't fit in the mold.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

Like, yep.

SPEAKER_05 46:58

Yeah, so I'm going oldest child with middle child tendencies on tyranid.

Orks

SPEAKER_03 47:03

All right. I'm gonna do the next one, which is orcs. And here's what I pictured when we came up with this concept, and I wrote orcs down, which is like there's you go to Instagram, you go to whatever place where parents are talking about their kids, and you inevitably get one where it's like, my three children on Arts and Crafts Day, picture of the oldest child, you know, coloring nicely and using scissors responsibly by themselves, pan to the youngest child, youngest child, mom is doing it for them, pan to the third child, the middle child, and like glitter bomb everywhere. They somehow got Sharpie on their face, there's paint on the wall, even though nobody was using paint today. Like, it's just a war zone of arts and crafts. So and that's orcs.

SPEAKER_05 47:53

I literally, every time I see the orcs played in my brain, all I can think of is Leroy Jenkins. Like, yeah, that is all I can hear. I it oh it plays on loop over and over again of these guys are just gonna crash through everything. It's in their lore, it's in the way that they play on the tabletop. I mean, actually, you do have to be a very structured player to play, to play the orcs, but you can also be like an agent of chaos, not punting to chaos, but you can just play them wildly and be the wild card on the table, and the the the army like loves it almost a little bit. I truly I used to really love playing orcs because it was one of those things where you could rock up to the table and not really have a macro and micro strategy and kind of just wing it, and it worked, it worked, and it still works, and and I think that so they're definitely middle children, and they are definitely trying each color of the crayons to see which ones taste different.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

Yep. All right, Steve. Next one is yours, and it comes with a caveat of be careful, your relationship with your cousin hangs in the balance. Yeah, I knew it was coming, and I'm nervous now.

Necrons

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Necrons.

SPEAKER_05 49:28

Sorry, cousin Josh, but you play a youngest child faction. Oh yeah. Big time.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

Oh yeah, big time. Every time something happens, it is well, well, why didn't the Necrons get something? And why didn't why didn't this get updated? And why don't we have that?

SPEAKER_05 49:49

Meanwhile, they're running around with like three of the most bad things that are in the game and like can totally dominate things and have tons of like you know, absolute power, that's what I will say, and yet they're still upset because they don't have all of the other things. And by the way, that's not just what like youngest children do. Here's the other reason why I think that they're youngest child vibes. Um, I think that the Necrons are one of the more refreshing and just well polished armies that GW has. And I think partially because they've they've they've worked their way, they came later in life, they work their way through a lot of the experiences and things that um were written into them, um, you know, from GW. And and honestly, they're they're just they're just the one one of the more polished armies that you have. Like, I think they do a lot of things right with the Necrons. And and I think that they're they're very hands-on with them because they're also super popular. So I don't know. It's just I it's not all it's not all a bad thing because you know, youngest child, even though I'm a male child and I have lots of tendencies to to give the other children hard times. Um, but seriously, though, I think that the necrons are more polished. I that's the word I just keep going back to.

SPEAKER_03 51:30

I I'm in agreement there, youngest child. The other one that I'll add in that you didn't hit on is the power fantasy of Necrons is it's our galaxy, it's just a matter of time until we wake up and claim our birthright. We're just letting you all stay on our lawn for now, which kind of gets a little bit into the entitlement that you brought up in the stereotype. Oh, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 51:57

There's an aspect of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you guys can just all play universe while all you want. I I this isn't even worth my time. Call me when it's important, you know. So no, I so I I they are definitely a youngest child faction, though.

SPEAKER_03 52:18

All

Leagues of Votann

SPEAKER_03 52:19

right, I'm doing the next one because it's one of yours, and I've been looking forward to this one. Leagues of Votan. Here it goes. Oldest child. I knew it. They are the Space Marines of the Xenos, highly structured, very rules-based, very, very, very well balanced outside of their initial release in 9th edition. They have been very balanced to the point of being boring for all of 10th edition. They just got a beautiful release of new models, so they're not forgotten. I think they are potentially of all the Xenos the most oldest child faction.

SPEAKER_05 53:03

I agree with you. Um, and I think that they're one that um, you know, everything is, in my opinion, everything is like neat and tight with um with the leaks right now. Like, even the new models that came in, there was a little bit of turmoil, and I was here for it. You guys all heard it. We talked on the podcast about it. Like, I was ready, and then it kind of settled back down and was like, hey, hey, hey, yeah, this isn't that big a deal. They're gonna go right back into their structure and they're gonna go back into playing the way they know how to play, and life's gonna be good. And that's what they did. And I think I think the thing is the reason why I would agree with you that they're they're they're oldest, they're an oldest child faction, is um you can kind of just count on them to be hanging around, right? They're they're they're they're going to be in the mix, they're going to have a chance, they're going to just just you know be reliable, if you will, which I think is is one of the biggest reasons why they are an oldest faction. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 54:14

Alright,

GSC

SPEAKER_03 54:15

next one up. Gene Stealer Cult.

SPEAKER_05 54:19

I don't want this one. You take this one. I still have lots of like honestly, Gene Steeler Cults messed me up, man.

SPEAKER_03 54:27

Um I think this might be another one where it's like stepchild or adopted child that you don't really know what to do with.

SPEAKER_05 54:36

They're the admec of the Xenos. That's what they are. Yeah. They they really are. I mean, all the things we said for admec apply here. Um the thing with with gene stealers is they they kind of want to be an oldest child, the way that they kind of are set up. Like they they want to be this thing that is like just structured and rigid. But anytime I've watched somebody play them, if you get stuck in that, you're gonna be in trouble.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

I was gonna so I push back on that. I would say I think, and it's proving your admec point, I think that they are way more middle child from a play perspective, because you have to play them so fundamentally different from any other army in the game.

SPEAKER_05 55:29

I think that that's that's where so I guess the point I'm trying to make is I think that people get stuck in thinking that you have to play them a certain way, which is why I think they have like a false identity of like an oldest child, but I think they are more middle child. Like they they gotta find their own path. They gotta you gotta let that peacock fly. Um, yep. Yeah. All right.

Drukhari

SPEAKER_05 55:54

Drakari. Um I I think this is another forgotten child.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Yeah, I I I think I mean they just sent half their range to legends. I think at this point, if it wasn't for Dracari, Grey Knights would have the biggest gripe, but Dracari have the oldest models. I think that I think they are the forgotten middle child.

SPEAKER_05 56:21

They are cool models, though. They're still cool models. They may be the oldest, but they're still cool models.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Um they've got a really cool rebel shtick and doing doing the the Eldar thing, but different. Like, I'm with you. Middle child.

SPEAKER_05 56:42

So you know what I think is really funny? Yep. I think that the Dracari are kind of the invisible friend of the Eldar.

SPEAKER_03 56:52

Oh no, nope, nope, nope. You're so you're you're beating me to my next joke. Okay, go ahead. Harlequins.

Harlequins

SPEAKER_04 57:00

Oh, they definitely are the invisible friend of the Eldar.

SPEAKER_05 57:04

Yeah, 100%. Like they're they're just they're just kind of like tag they're tag-alongs. Aren't isn't that like a Girl Scout cookie? I think they're here.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

Here's the analogy I had for Harlequins. And it's a deep, deep cut for uh going back to pop culture. But you remember how way back in the day with the Simpsons they used to do like the treehouse of horror episodes? The only episodes I actually really cared about. I loved them. So they had one where the whole premise was Bart was actually a conjoined twin that was split at birth, and one of them was evil and one of them was good. And they locked one of them in the basement, only fed him fish heads because he thought he was evil, Bart. Yeah. Yeah. I mean and it it comes all the way around and fits because the moral of that one is it turns out Bart was the the evil one all along. And if you think of Harlequins as the conjoined twin of the Eldar who were punished because they were evil.

SPEAKER_05 58:10

It's interesting. I I even forget about the Harlequins all the time. I forget about them. They're just not in my they're just not in my like in my bubble, right? And granted, we don't I mean you play them a little bit, um, but we don't really have a lot of people in Barnhammer who play them, so so that's not really a that's not really a thing. But yeah, it's definitely I would say that they're the forgotten one. Yep.

Aeldari

SPEAKER_03 58:45

Alright, last one in Xenos. Eldar.

SPEAKER_05 58:52

It's gonna be controversial.

SPEAKER_03 58:54

I was gonna say pregnant pause while we both debate how much we want to hurt feelings.

SPEAKER_05 58:58

Uh, I think they're youngest child. That's I I think they're a youngest child that so desperately wants to be an oldest child that they run around telling everybody that they're the oldest child and that they don't have siblings.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

I think that they are the youngest child, and they are the youngest child who is on hair trigger about all the things that their older siblings get and how it's not fair. And I think that they are also the youngest child who is the most motivated to be better than their older siblings because they are just sick and tired of all of their teachers and everyone else going, oh, you're so-and-so's little brother.

SPEAKER_05 59:38

Yeah. Uh yeah. I agree with everything you just said. I mean, uh so it's not a bad thing, though. It it it's it's a good thing. I mean, like you said, I think that I think you know, there's a there's an aspect within the side of the community that a lot of the like more, you know, big brain players, right, play this faction. Um, you know, and I think that there's an there's an aspect of that that that's what makes them a youngest child, is because those those folks are like looking to say, okay, I'm gonna take this faction and take it to the top, right? And and no one can get in my way. Don't tell me how to do it, Imperium. Don't tell me how to do it, all you other crazy chaos folks. Like you guys run around like crazy. I'm gonna show you how to do this, right? There's an aspect, there's like an aura, right, that comes along with that. And I think it's very motivating. Um, you know, I say this all the time, right? Motivated by spite is something that I do as a middle child, but they're not motivated by spite, they're motivated by aura, and that's like a different thing. Um, and I think that you know, that that can come along with kind of that that younger child spin.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:01

I'm gonna take it slightly different direction, but I agree with you on the younger child. I actually think that this is the and it's why when you were talking about youngest child and your your opener, why you I heard you kind of pause and do the okay, how am I gonna describe this without letting on that the youngest child archetype annoys me the most I think that the Eldar are the youngest child who comes with that chip on their shoulder, but also misses the point that that they get better stuff than their two older siblings, and they get treated potentially better because they're the baby of the family.

unknown 1:01:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:42

Which is why there's so much community resentment towards them.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:46

And and like that they're the quintessential, they're the quintessential youngest child who complains about all the things they don't get, but their older siblings are looking at them going, I didn't get half the stuff that you do get when I was your age.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:01

So interestingly enough, like to me, like a middle child does chaos, right? Like they do chaos. But like a youngest child chooses chaos. And I'm I I'm saying those words specifically because I think that I think that that's what the Eldar do. I think they choose chaos, they choose to be chaotic, they choose to kind of upset the Apple card or whatever stupid saying you want to throw in there. I think they choose to do that. And while they're doing that, they're telling they're telling everybody that, you know, they're they're not, they're an oldest child. Yeah, they're doing they're doing it differently, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:44

Yeah, I don't know. Alright, so we I think we beat that one to death. If we take it any further, we're gonna hurt some feelings. Yeah, for sure. Um all right,

Chaos Daemons

SPEAKER_03 1:02:53

chaos. We'll go tops down. Chaos demons.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:01

Can I just blanket chaos? Because I think every chaos faction is a middle child.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:07

Oh, I'm gonna push back on that one.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:09

I I think that there are some demon perspective. Let me say this. From a demon perspective.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

They are they are being forgotten. They're right up there almost with Drakari.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:24

I think so, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:29

When was the last time they got any new stuff? They didn't even get a codex in 10th edition. That is true. They are dangerously close to becoming CSM's invisible friend. Maybe they are. I hope not.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:46

Demons are cool. None of this is based on whether or not they're cool or right or wrong or anything like that. Uh, because I agree, demons are cool. Drakari are cool, they're super cool. I don't want to see any of this stuff not be, you know, on the forefront. But I mean, let's be honest, there are aspects of it where they're just not on the forefront. And demons in the chaos aspect, they're not on the forefront. And I think that there's a little bit of because it blends so much with the fantasy side of things that that you almost can't lean into demons. Like you almost have to leave that kid alone. Let them go do their thing, like they're enough, they're there, they're existing, they're getting BCs in school. Like, let them be. They're gonna they're gonna grow up and do whatever they do, but you kind of can't lean into them too much because then you then you start blurring the lines between things like you know, Age of Sigmar and and 40k.

unknown 1:04:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:45

Alright, so middle child for demons, it sounds like in the the forgotten middle child. For sure. Alright. Chaos

Chaos Knights

SPEAKER_03 1:04:53

knights.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:56

So I think they I think they're an oldest child. I think they're very much an oldest child. Um for a lot of the same reasons that knights are, but I think one different thing, I think that they get more love from more admiration from GW, Papa and Mama GW, than than even the like Imperial Knights get. Like, I I just I if you look at their models too, like from a aesthetics perspective, it's a big difference, dude. There is a big difference.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:36

Maybe it so this is one where I'll push back of I think you're right that they are an oldest child, but I think GW really misses the mark because this should be the middle child to Imperial Knight's oldest child. Like this should be where there's some wild and crazy stuff. Why though? And I think it's why I think it's too bor I think it's because it's Chaos Knights. Think of the cool stuff they could do with making those things more like demon engines. This is why you are the most middle child, oldest child I've ever met.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:10

Yeah, but you need something boring. You need something with some.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:13

Oh, they are too boring. They are too boring. Chaos Knights are too boring. If you want to be boring, you go play the Imperium. This should be the poster child for the middle child faction.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:26

I said I wanted to blanket all of them as middle child, and you said no. But it's this one's something boring. Go play the Imperium.

unknown 1:06:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:39

This one should not be the middle, should not be the oldest child. But it is for chaos. Oh, it shouldn't be though. This should be where they go hog wild and it feels crazy, and it feels like a middle child. Like the the rebellious, I don't know what that kid is doing with what they're wearing and what they're doing with their hair. And don't get me started on the music they're listening to. This is be the this should be the child that like borderline appalls their parents.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:10

Everybody pause for the public service announcement that Eric's about to give on why he loves chaos so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

This this one hurts my soul because it could be so much cooler. And it's cool. Don't get me wrong, it is cool. The night abominant is a great start. The rest of them are just Imperial Knights with spikes and scary faces.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:34

Thank God this microphone doesn't pick up all the laughing I'm doing on this side because I I am in tears, actually. It's funny to watch you be very like itchy about any of this being outside of what you're envisioning.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:49

I'm gonna have some strong feelings as we go through chaos. Okay, the next one. All right,

CSM

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

CSM. This is the one that I think should be the oldest child for the middle child, you know, grouping that is chaos.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:03

I'm the polar opposite of your feelings on this.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:07

I think these are the poster children. This is the dark reflection of space marines. There shouldn't be poster children in chaos.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:14

It's chaos. If you want poster children, do the seven giant knights that you have. That's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:22

Do that. Oh no. Black Legion, Abaddon, they should be the just like edgier. Like they should be the firstborn child who's just trying to be a little bit edgier to make their parents uncomfortable, but they're really still kind of staying safe. This is why I left chaos for last because I knew this was gonna be a thing. Yeah, it's I think they should be the firstborn child of chaos. But you want you you want CSM to have structure?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:50

It does have structure, it has the most structure of all of them. See, I I don't know. In my mind, it doesn't. I mean, in my mind, I I guess maybe we should define the structure that we're talking to, right? In my mind, for them, like yes, it is the opposite of you know the regular space marines, right? But uh but with that being said, it's twisted, it's different, right? It's not to that structure, it's it's morphed into something that is chaos.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:29

But it's it's not more I mean they have two detachments in chaos space marines that their army rule is just oath of moment by another name. Uh the the rules overlap, the playstyle that you know there's a more aggression to CSM, but it's you don't do with uh you don't do with uh an Imperium, you know uh Space Marine army what you do with a CSM army.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:56

You just don't they don't feel the same on the table. You know this. But it it feels uh so I think you're making you're making my point, I think. I think I think what you're saying is exactly what I'm trying to say is like Yeah, they took the they took the firstborn stuff and they said I'm not doing that, I'm doing this my way. And yeah, it all kind of looks and sounds the same, but when you have them on the table, they don't feel like that, they feel completely different. At least they do when I'm getting beat up by them.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:33

So what I'm saying though is within the confines of chaos, which we unanimously agreed was the middle child of the three larger groupings, they are the most like a firstborn child. They are in a lot of ways the inverse of what I said about Guard. Or actually, no, the same as what I said about Guard, where it's the power fantasy is aimed at middle children, but the structure itself is actually pretty firstborn oriented. Alright, I'll give you that one. I'll give you that one.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:05

I'll let you have this one, Eric, because they're your they're your favorite.

Death Guard

SPEAKER_03 1:11:11

Alright. And now we can get into where I think we get more into you know, probably proper middle child-esque, which is the the god unique detachment. So Death Guard with Papa Nurgle.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:27

So I definitely think that uh you know what? I don't know. There's an aspect of me that says that they're that they're youngest child, actually. And and I say this because uh they kind of feel like new to the scene and like they're doing stuff a little bit different. Um, you know, they're they're can I can I lump two well no, I'll wait for those. But I I just I think that they're actually a youngest child. I I think that from an aspect of they have a lot of really good stuff. Sometimes they can't always even see how good their stuff is, but yet they'll still kind of say we don't have everything and we need new models and we need new this and this, that, and the other. And and yet they they have, you know, they have the ability to expand into the demons, they have the ability to use a Primark that's you know can be really good. They have they have lots of things going for them, but sometimes they just they just don't see that because they're always comparing themselves to the other Space Marine type factions yeah, I'll buy that.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:35

It I I was going back and forth on whether they are oldest or youngest oriented for a lot of the reasons that you articulated. Also, they seem to have the the most structure from a chaos faction's perspective with how they play, the most mature line of models and the more the most robust line of models that are unique to them, so they have the most stuff. So I I I couldn't figure out if it was youngest or oldest, but I think they lean towards one of the two for those reasons. Yeah, I I personally in my mind I think they leaned youngest, but that's that's where I'm at with them. Yep.

Emperor's Children

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

Alright, I'll let you do this one, but our friendship hangs in the balance.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:20

I don't know if I want to do it, because you're gonna disagree with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:23

Emperor's children.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:28

So here's I'm gonna throw you a screwball here. I think that they're an only child. Yeah. I think they're an only child. I think they have all the aspects of every one of the the the you know child hierarchy in them. And they kind of get treated as their own thing. And they don't really identify with all the other things. They they they operate uh slightly like every other one of the factions, but not quite exactly the same. Um, you know, they yeah, they are to me, they are definitely an only child. They could be a special snowflake marine detachment or uh army.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:22

See, I had this one listed as a too soon to tell because they've only really been a thing for about a year. And I the one thing that they are missing to be a special snowflake is they just don't have a a large enough access to models. Like if they had access to more of the core CSM units, I would 100% agree with you. And there's probably the rider for all four of the God unique factions of they're kind of like the the special snowflake marines where they could all be argued as only children for all the reasons you just articulated. But it I had Emperor's Children as a not sure potentially too too soon to say.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:05

So I'm gonna here comes a hot take. Are you ready? Yep. Um gut feel for me is that they're kind of in the same boat as like on the Imperium side, they're they're kind of the space wolves of chaos. Oh that one hurts. It just got gut feel, that's how it feels to me, is like they they're very much like that type of a thing, right? Like they have so much identity, so much identity that they are kind of their own thing, but they're not their own thing. And to me, that's kind of what the space wolves are, too. Like they have so much identity, and they have spent so much time building that that kind of you know who they are, but at the end, they're they're space marines, right? And in in the end, they're they're kind of just you know chaos space marines.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:07

Yeah, it's fair. I mean it like I said, I I surprisingly don't have strong feelings on this one because I think it needs more time to mature before we fully see, but I I wouldn't be surprised if it heads in the direction of whether it's space wolves, blood angels, dark angels, kind of that special snowflake direction.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:28

I think I think that's where it's going. Only child. Yep. Alright.

Thousand Sons

SPEAKER_05 1:16:33

Thousand Suns. Oh, thousand sons are in my mind 100% oldest child.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:41

Oh, I was gonna go youngest. Really? Why insert everything we said about Eldar, but say with chaos.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:49

Yeah, maybe okay. Maybe I uh I could be swayed in that direction. I uh where I was going was the amount of structure that it takes to play them remotely properly, I guess. Um just kind of gives me the like, you have to follow all the rules, you have to do this, you have to collect $200 if you go past go, you know. If not, you go straight to jail.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:16

Like that that's how it feels playing thousands the faction deliberately to prove to your older siblings that you are better than them because you had to navigate more complexity. Like, take what we said about Eldar and GSC and apply it to Thousand Sons.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:35

So oldest child with youngest child feelings.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:39

Yeah, I'll give you that one.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:42

Alright, I'll take that. That sounds good. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:45

Alright,

World Eaters

SPEAKER_03 1:17:46

last one, world eaters.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:48

Oh, see, to me, world eaters is is it's middle, middle, middle, middle, middle.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:55

It's every middle, I was gonna say it's every middle child's dream just to like it is the orcs of chaos.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:02

Yeah, 100%. I mean, uh the way you described orcs earlier, you know, if if you put all three children at the at an arts and crafts table, like um the world eaters are gonna eat the table. Like they they got hungry and no one was feeding with them, so they just made up their own meal, and it happened to be the table, right? It's like they yeah, I that definitely middle child 100% all the way.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:30

All right, we

Outro

SPEAKER_03 1:18:31

we did it all. We're a little bit on the long side, we're approaching an hour and 20, so we should probably wrap it up. But any final thoughts? Because we got through it and this was a lot of fun. I think it was fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:41

I please, everybody, if you've made it this long, I hope you have. Like, just you know, just know that like a lot of this we're doing in jest. Um, but um, it is interesting to think about. Like one of our favorite things to do is to take constructs that we learn about or that we're passionate about and see how we apply them to the GW universe. And this is this is definitely one of them. Um, you know, these are things that Eric and I talk about all the time, um, you know, especially when we're dealing with things like social situations or feelings or any of that stuff, right? Um, and you know, if you if you take a look at breaking things down into a construct, even if you don't agree with our assessment of the certain things, um, it is fun to break it down and try to put everything into its little place and find find its niche, and you know, it doesn't hurt that we're teasing each other or two, so that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:38

Yeah, it I I think this was a lot of fun. I do think it's pretty funny that two of your primary armies, and I kind of argue Death Guard in the same direction were all oldest child oriented, and that a lot of mine were more middle child oriented. I I find that one very humorous. Um yeah, this was a lot of fun. I will tell you, caveat to everything you just said. There is one faction, Steve, where I won't apologize for our potentially, you know, scandalous take. Don't you feel bad about it? Don't don't you don't. Do you want to know what that faction is? No. I'm gonna tell you, anyways. It's the Necrons. Take that, cousin Josh. You're in the same bucket as the Eldar. You're both babies of the family.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:26

Ha ha and Good night, everyone. Nice. I broke you on the outro. I'll take it. Have a good one, everyone. Take care.