35 - Nobody Told Me the Dice Hit Back

In this episode of the "Grown Men Playing With Toys" podcast, Erik shows up to record still licking his wounds, this time from a rough road race -except this time his own son quoted the podcast back at him like a tiny, devastating life coach.  

Steve is delighted. Erik is not sure how to feel about that.

What follows is an off-the-cuff deep dive into one of the most underrated reasons we play this game in the first place — the test. Not the winning. Not the math hammer. The test and what it says about you.

Along the way they tackle:

• Hold My Dice — why we voluntarily sign up for hard things.....on the tabletop, behind the mics, and on the pavement
• The Bags Don't Hit Back — what list hammer and math hammer can't prepare you for and why that's actually the point
• Dice Gods, Dice Demons — the completely irrational and deeply relatable ritual of switching dice mid-game and blaming the French judge when it still doesn't work
• Concede or Commit — what a Votann vs. Chaos Knights blowout taught one of us the hard way about why staying in the hard thing is a part of the test
• The Clock Is Also Your Opponent — time as a resource, a weapon, and an excuse all at once

Whether you've ever switched dice out of pure superstition, rage-conceded on turn three, or just needed someone to remind you that showing up to the starting line is already passing the first test — this one is for you.

Check out our other content: https://gmpwt.blog/ | https://www.youtube.com/@GrownMenPlayingWithToys

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you've already won when you're building your list, and you've already won when you did your math, then what's the point of even playing the game? Right? Welcome to the Grown Men Playing with Toys Podcast. They say we're too old. We say hold our dice. We're your hosts, Eric and Steve. Eric, buddy, how are we feeling today? We're feeling a little bit discombobulated. I love that word. That's that's a good one. Discombobulated. Okay. Why?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Oh all right, so this one's got a big setup, which you know sounds about right for a big word. So we're we're back to to road racing season. Um, I think as we've talked about in the past, you are we both run. You are a runner. I would describe myself as someone who is more of a jogger. And we know we're back to spring racing season, and I had a race this morning. It didn't go well. And one of the things that I thought was pretty funny, and we're actually running a little bit later tonight because you spent the last hour getting a real kick out of it, is I was in a funk afterwards because I I've been training pretty hard this spring, and the race didn't go the way that I wanted it to, because it was a very hard course and it was ungodly hot outside, and I hadn't acclimated to the heat. And I was in a little bit of a funk afterwards, kind of like in our last episode, when I didn't have a good game and I was in a funk about it. And my oldest son, who was running it with me, afterwards said something effective like, Hey dad, chin up. Like, it's just like that necrun game you were all bummed about. It's just one bad game. And that one has been stuck with me all day long, in part because it's really cool that my kid could connect something that you and I talked about and use it to then give me good life advice back. Because it shows one, he's listening, and two, he's able to articulate it back and feed me my own medicine, but two, it's kind of got me spinning about you know why why those funks happen and you know that this pattern and just the why you and I do hard things like that, like running some of these road races isn't easy. Um, you know, some of what we do within the hobby isn't easy. So I'm I'm not a hundred percent refined on where this is going, other than I wanted to unpack it with you a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

So, first thing, I think it's funny that we're doing back-to-back episodes, and both of them are coming at Eric feeling a little down in his feelings about either not doing well in his practice game or not doing well in a race. Um, and we get to unpack that here back-to-back episodes. Um, so that's that's kind of ironic, and we did not know that this was gonna happen. So this is this one's a little off the cuff here. But one kudos to your son for for you know that level of maturity. I think that that's really cool. But I think I think he has a a fantastic point that I think might be something that we can talk to for then for the next hour or so. Um I think that there's an aspect of you know, uh when you say why do we play this game, I think we've kind of hinted around those things. There's a whole bunch of different reasons why we do it. But I think one of the key aspects to playing this game that is important to I think anyone who tries is there's a challenge, right? It's a challenge, right? You're setting up you're setting yourself up to do something that is difficult. Um 40k is not easy. And any of these tabletop games, they're really they're not easy. There's a lot to it, a lot of mechanics. And anybody can think about the first time that they they played, it's like you know, you're speaking another language, even, right? You know, it's it's it's just there's just a lot to it. There's a lot to learn. And I think that there's an inherent challenge in that lot to learn that really will draw you into the game. I know it does for me on multiple levels. It's not just even in like the strategy and the tactics, right? But you know, we talk about hobbying on here quite a lot too. Think about the first time you painted a model, think about how that turned out. I have mine like looking at me right now. Um, it was a death dread. Um, and uh, I was so proud of it. And when I look at it now, I'm like, oh my god, what was I doing? Um, but yeah, it was hard, and I had to practice and learn techniques and watch videos and listen to different experts in the community and listen to podcasts about how to do it, and you study it, and then you know, there's there's a a point where you know you're gonna test yourself, you're gonna you're gonna, you know, play a really tough game, go play in a tournament, go play at your local game store, um, you know, play play against a medalist. Like there's all these different things that could happen. Paint paint a really expensive model that maybe cost you too much money and you probably shouldn't have bought. Um so the the the hobby presents these like tests and these challenges, and it it's very akin to the the running thing, like you were saying. Like we do that because you know, we're both middle-aged guys that want to stay in shape and you know, want to have that little competitive edge to us. So, you know, it's a chance to get out there and see how well your training and how well your time and effort has been put in. So I don't know. I think it's a I think it's a really cool thing that we could deep dive into.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Yeah, and I I I like the way you phrased it there of it's about testing yourself. Because I think part of the what drove me to you know what we talked about the last episode, and then part of what I've been battling today, you know, when you test yourself, there's part of the adrenaline rush of doing it is it's not a test if it's guaranteed. So there's there's always this risk, it may not go the way you want. And then you're gonna have to look at yourself in the mirror and look at the fact that it didn't go the way that you wanted or expected it to go. And then there's always that massive, you know, dopamine and adrenaline hit when it does go your way, and when it when you overperform and it goes better than you expected, or there's the satisfaction, like you've said, of and painting's a great one because my my son still has the first five space marines that I ever painted sitting up on a shelf in his room, and they look god-awful, but it's a real good reminder of kind of where I started versus where I am now. So yeah, I I I like the way that you took that of the you know, there's a lot that you can get out of those various ways of testing yourself, both for good, and then occasionally you get the kind of speed bumps that you've helped me talk through lately.

The Test - Challenge, Vulnerability, and Growth

SPEAKER_02 8:22

I think that it's pretty cool that the game allows you to be able to do that, right? And you can embrace it in different ways, you can embrace different aspects of it to find that way to test yourself. I personally like to find new ways and techniques to paint things, I think it's really cool. I get really excited when I bring a new model out that I've tried some different technique on or some new way of painting or a different color scheme or something. Um, and I show it to people and people react to it, right? So, so it's a vulnerability, right? People could hate this thing. Now, granted, most of the time I'm just showing it to my friends, and well, no, my friends would actually tell me if they didn't like it.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

I was gonna say, I I you're friends with me. I recognize I can be a difficult guy to be a friend with because I can be very blunt.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah, I I I take where I was going with that back because I I think that people would actually be like, Yeah, I didn't really like that, or I didn't, you know, and I think it's at it's at a point where they know that I'm trying to test myself on that aspect too. So they're they're gonna challenge me a little bit. They're not gonna make it easy and they want to see me grow. Um, so you know, I just think it's really cool that you can it's not just about strategy, technique, and all these other things. It's it's there there's lots of different mini challenges throughout the game that I think are really I I think it that's the part that grabs you. Like I keep going back to that. Like, I think that this ability to challenge yourself, like I know we talk all the time about playing the person on the other side of the table, but really truly, you know, it it's like anything else. It takes practice, it takes patience, it takes understanding, willingness to learn, willingness to fail, right? How many times do you do something and it doesn't go your way? That that is hard to continuously do. It's not always gonna be a win. And I mean, we talk about cousin Josh on here a lot, and I'm I'm cuz cousin Josh is was struggling for a little while in 10th edition with the necrons. He he really was, and he kept at it and kept at it and he kept working it. And you know, I think he's at a point now, and unfortunately we're going to 11th, but he's at a point now where you know he he has gotten himself confident and comfortable um, you know, with that faction. And he he he rode that wave of challenging and testing and keep coming back to the drawing board type activity. And and I think I just think that that's one of the really cool parts about this whole this whole community that we're in.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

So let let's be a little bit more specific, because I I really like where you're going with this. And how about we you know kind of take turns going back and forth? Because like you said, we're coming off the cuff a little bit. We had a plan for a different episode, and we we both kind of agreed in the green room of because we got started on this based off of you know my disappointment with running. And we looked like, hey, we think there's something here, so let's let's unpack it a little bit and let's just take turns of give me a specific way that you test yourself in the 40k hobby and and talk to me a little bit about you know what that's like, how you think you are testing yourself, and you know, how does how does it feel as you're going through it and why do you stick with it?

Community Tests

SPEAKER_02 11:59

My first thing, I I'll be quite honest with everybody listening, it's this podcast. This podcast is one of the biggest ways for me to test myself uh in this community. And I I try to be as vulnerable as I can on the podcast because it allows me to be able to kind of get that off of my chest and kind of get that out there. And and we get feedback, we get a lot of you know people that either agree or disagree or whatever it is um to what we're saying. And you know, it it forces me to go back and think about the things that I'm doing, um, whether it be on the tabletop or my theories or thoughts about you know where things are going with the game, or um, you know, uh last episode, like talking through the different things that we would have done while, you know, while you were breaking down your battle report, like all of that is me kind of being very vulnerable with my thoughts and and ideas of of you know how 240k, I guess, a little bit. Um, so I I think that I think that for me one of the biggest ways that I test myself, I'll get on here with you once a week and we'll talk for an hour about something about this this hobby. Um, and you know, I I I you know and am open to the feedback of of those thoughts and opinions.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Very cool. I mean it I know just from talking with you and working with you, we've joked in the past about you know mundane mo moments. Like one of the things that you've you've worked through with this is the you're a big if you're gonna talk the talk, you better walk the walk kind of person. And I know that you've struggled a little bit with imposter syndrome of having a 40k podcast where you know you don't feel like you're an expert in playing the game. So I I see that, and I think it's super cool that you're not letting that take away from an experience that you could have, and that you're you're continuing to do this every week and you know, jumping in to have good discussions on it.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

So let me flip that back on you. So so what's a way that you feel like you you kind of test yourself in the 40k 40k world?

SPEAKER_00 14:27

I mean, I I've got a couple right off the cuff, but I'll start with I'll start with a Do you have a spreadsheet? I mean already. I I always have a spreadsheet, but yeah. I've got a list. Um The Crusade League, I just finished. Yeah. You know, if you go far enough back in our episodes, we did one where we kind of talked about the different elements of 40k, and we did like a yes, no, maybe so type game. And when we got to community, I think I said something like, I want it to be a yes, but I just can't seem to make it work. So it's a maybe so because I get that like social anxiety when it comes to the community side. I can't figure out the online community, and so I made a concerted effort because I didn't like listening to that and how I responded to it. And I didn't it came across like I was not willing to put myself out there when I listened to that episode again. So I that and also wanting to test myself as a player kind of led me to I'm gonna go enter in a crusade league, I'm gonna go engage in my LGS, I'm gonna go and and try and be there and play against complete strangers and meet people I wouldn't otherwise know, and and just you know, go test myself in the LGS. And it's not like I'm going down there to to kick butt and take names, but it's a you know, I'm gonna test myself in this area that I said I wasn't super happy with when we did our evaluation. And it's been super rewarding. You know, there are parts of it where I I think there's still some work to be done, and there's some there have been some times where you know I I left a game at the LGS and I wasn't happy with how I played, or you know, I had like a bit of a so socially awkward moment that you know I left and like, oh man, why did I do that? But by and large, that one has I think gone pretty well. Like I was down at my LGS this past weekend and I brought my boys down to it, and the you know, some of the people I'd met in the Crusade League were chatting up my boys, asking them all about if they want to play in the crusade league at some point in the future. So it it I'm gonna say that that went pretty well, and and that was one where I really put myself out there. So I I think I would say that's the first one.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

I think there's another aspect to the Crusade League that like I remember when you called me and you were like, hey, so thinking about doing this, and you know, what do you think about it? Like, you know, we kind of had a conversation about you know, you really were heavily considering doing it. And the really interesting thing to me was like not only were you putting yourself out there from a a social perspective and kind of you know, branching out and you know, getting into more um of the local scene, but you know, previous to that, you were very heavily like tournament style play biased, right? The kind of more lore-based, what I'll call lore-based play, wasn't really your cup of tea, and it kind of brings me back to like a tangent story of this time where I wanted to set up this like big Helm's Deep game, and you were like, Yeah, I don't know, man. I just kind of want to play like straight up, like you keep score, I keep score, and we see how it finishes in the end. Um but you kind of put yourself out there, not just in terms of you know, going to the LGS, but you you you kind of did it in a different genre of style of play, um, than than what I I thought you would gravitate towards. And I think it was really cool. I I I think that personally in your gameplay, I think that I've seen a lot of growth um from you kind of expanding and testing kind of that that new area to to go and and feel things out. I think it it's it's given you a way to look at strategy a little bit different, which I think is really, really cool.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah, it I I mean it's why I offered up as the the first example because I I think this is the one of the ones I've gotten the most out of. You know, it g it gave me a baseline of where or a benchmark of where I think I am from a play perspective against other people who don't know me, don't know my tendencies, I don't know them, I don't know their tendencies. You know, it it's all well and good for me to walk around my shop and be like, I'm the biggest, baddest player here. Well, yeah, I'm the only one there. So as much as I like doing my battle reports, I they're not telling me a whole lot about how I'm progressing as a player, and I think being in the LGS gives me a good benchmark, playing a different game system to see how quickly I can pick it up. So yeah, it I don't know. It that's the first one that jumped into my mind is the the first one where I really kind of put myself out there to test myself, and I think it was on multiple fronts. It it also led to to me picking up an entire Emperor's Children army to try and test myself as a painter.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Ooh, hold on, because you just hit on another one, right? Um I I think one way that that that you can test yourself in this game is by playing different armies. And you kinda I mean, I know you've talked about painting a different army, which that that also too, like if anybody wants to test themselves, go go ahead, ad mech. Go ahead, go ahead. I see you. Congratulations, you are incredibly I do not need to to test myself that hard. Um or thousand sons even. I tried that for a little bit. I dabbled. Um, but anyway, playing a new army, right? I think that there's an avenue there of testing yourself too, right? Getting outside your comfort zone. Like that's a really cool thing. I I know I've I've done it a little bit. I I I struggled with finding like my army identity. Um midway through ninth and into tenth, I in the beginning of 10th, I really was struggling. Um and I I think that that kind of put me in a challenge to try something different and kind of find out what did appeal to me. Like I said, I've I've played orcs, I've played Thousand Suns, I've played, I have played Votan, I have played uh Imp Guard, I have played Death Guard, um, I've played Blood Angels, I've played regular Space Marines. Um I think in each one of those, right, there there's a test of you know learning the new like re restructuring yourself to learn it again, right? And I think it it it does make you a much better player, too. Um if you can, you know, relearn a new faction, relearn a new army, a new detachment, those types of things. I think that's a it's a healthy way to test yourself.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, I I would agree with that. And it also it can be really humbling. Um because you know, I know. One is going to be equally good at all armies. I see this firsthand, like I play a lot of armies, in part because I, as a part of my practice games, I want to give myself looks into multiple armies. But it you go back and read my battle reports, it is abundantly clear which armies I am more skilled with and which armies I am not super skilled with. And some of them, like it can be a really strong army that a lot of people are having success with, and I still won't be able to do great. Like late 2025 El Dari. I couldn't make it work, even though at the time everyone was screaming that it was OP broken. It's not how my brain tells me to play the game. I couldn't force it. And so anytime I played with it, it didn't go as well as as it should. And so there's elements there of, you know, yeah, it and oh by the way, this is one where it it might be hard to see that as you're testing yourself against these different armies, you're not gonna be equally good at all of them. And you might not be good at as you want to be at some of the ones that you think are super cool. Like I'm still not that great with orcs. I think orcs are really cool. I think my orcs that I've painted up look really cool. I wish I played much better with them. It's just it it's a struggle. So yeah, I I'm in agreement with you. That that's a really good way to test yourself. It's a very expensive way to test yourself. Unless you've got friends who will let you borrow their armies. But yeah, agreed. Or TTS is a thing.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

TTS is a thing. You could go to your local. Sometimes they have shop armies that you can try out. Um, you know, there's definitely ways you can do it. Um, well, that kind of brings up another aspect of where man, we can go in lots of directions with this one, Eric. So one of the things that I think I see people do a lot to try and test themselves is they'll they'll make a list or they'll do something, or or they'll list hammer and math hammer, and then they'll go into like Reddit or something, and they'll want to post it up there to kind of test whether or not people, the community, I guess, reacts appropriately to it. I I I see that a lot. Um I personally do not recommend doing that. I think that that is not a good test, um, but I do think that there's uh this avenue where I I see people try to test themselves. And to be honest with you, in that in that way, um I think it's better if you go down to your local game store and talk to the talk to the community face to face or call up your friends' group or have a group chat with the people you play with or something along those lines. But yeah, I see it a lot. I now that I'm thinking about this whole like idea of like how do you how do you validate the things that you're thinking of and seeing and feeling and reacting to in this game, you see it a lot on things like Reddit, where people are trying to develop a structure for testing themselves. Um, but oftentimes it just winds up turning into an opinion fest and um isn't always the healthiest. But I do I do think that you see it. Like like you can see what we're talking about in real time in that in that forum.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

I mean, you bring up, and it's a minor tangent, so you can stop me if we go too deep, but there's it strikes me of when you look at different sports, uh some of them are a lot harder to determine how they test you versus others, and some of them are a lot more subjective than others. Like one of the things that I've really grown to appreciate, even though I'm not that great at it about running, is it's not subjective at all. Like your your time is your time. And yes, there will be context on weather conditions and the amount of elevation gained during the run and the amount of wind that there was either behind your back or blowing into your face. But at the end of the day, there's a stopwatch there, and it's gonna tell you what your pace was and how much total time it took you to run a certain distance, and it's pretty objective. And you compare that to other sports, like say gymnastics or figure skating, where you know the people are performing the routine, and then you've got a hidden panel of judges who are evaluating them and giving scores, and there always seems to be a thing in every major competition about like one person who nobody can understand why the judges scored them the way they did, and then you find out that one of the judges who gave them a low score was secretly like from a country of another competitor who just so happened to hit the podium.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

And I'm not always the French judge, man. It's always the French judge.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah, and it so it just it strikes me there of the going to Reddit to test yourself is like doing one of those judging competitions, like it's like doing figure skating or gymnastics, whereas there's other ways that could do it that maybe are a little bit more objective.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah, I I'm not I mean, by all means enjoy the Reddit community. I'm not uh trying to shy anybody away from that. I'm just I just I see people try to test themselves there quite often, and and I read a lot of the forums and I I read through the reactions to some of these things, and I think there's there's just better ways of doing it. I think I think there's more constructive ways of doing it, but you know, it it is something that you know as we're talking about this, I wanted to call out because I think it is a real thing. I think I think that that is a that's a that's an aspect, we'll call it Reddit hammer. Reddit hammering is a thing. Um, you know, it's not really playing, it's not really strategy, it's more of like you know, did you did you think through all of the things that you could possibly think through and put into this post, and then everybody judges it? Like you said, they either give it a you know a 10 or you know, maybe they give it an eight because you know they just felt biased against it for some reason. So, like you said, I think it it is a little bit of an objective test, but it is a real test, it's part of it's part of the community, it's out there.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah, it's that is not my favorite test, but I I will give it to you. It is just because it's not as objective as I would prefer, doesn't mean that it's not a valid test.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

So, all right. I really actually like this subject. This is a fun one. Um so when you're in game, and you play a lot of games, you play what, like three or four games a week, something like that?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

It's been dialed back to one to one and a half, but that's because my crusade league's no longer going on, we're in running season, and also I've got a hobby project going on in the background that is 40k related. I'm I'm working on yet another army. Of course you are.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Yeah.

Opponent Tests

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Um so so anyway, so so when you're in game, I think there's like micro tests in the game that can happen. Um and and you got me thinking, so so spoiler alert, the episode that we were gonna talk about where like what out, you know, how do you feel about your your main character vibes, right? Your your special favorite model on the board and how they perform and and things like that. I I think that um there's you know, you kind of create little tests for the scenario, right? Like a unit to do X, um, you know, of uh a character to do this action type thing. And while it comes out in strategy, oftentimes you can strategize till the cows come home and you can do all the probability. And you know what? The dice are gonna tell you it's gonna be something different that day, and that's just how it is. But you're kind of like testing out, like I don't know. I I I think of it sometimes as like being a boxer, right? And I know we're doing a lot of sports analogies, so hang out, hang in here with us, folks, if you're not sports fans. Um, but like boxers, like they test for weakness, like that's what they do. Like, oftentimes they they set up other things, right? And they'll jab or they'll dance or they'll move around, they'll try to create angles, all these things, right? I am not a boxer, so please don't roast me if you're a boxer. I I just know what I watch on TV, right? Um, but the whole idea is you're trying to like test their defense and find out where their weakness is and then exploit it. I feel like we do that at a micro level. So, what are some of the like micro level tests, Eric, that maybe you do?

SPEAKER_00 31:51

That's a good question, and the boxing analogy is a perfect one. I mean, that so the the obvious one to start with, and it's not necessarily way down in the micro like you dove to, but it's starting to get there, is when you talk about the concept of list hammer and math hammer, the first obvious test is as you transition from list hammer and math hammer to actual playing of Warhammer. And to use your boxing analogy, that reminds me of like you again, not a boxer, but you go through all your training and whatnot, and you're working the bag, and you're working the the heavy bag, the speed bag, and you're jumping rope, and you're in your Rocky montage, and then you go into your first match, and the other guy hits you. And you know, none of those bags hit you back when you're training.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

That's right. Well, I don't know. In Rocky, he he got hit with a like the slab of cow, didn't he? Like, then he get it like pushed in his way. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yeah, but that that's still different. I mean, it's the old Mike Tyson, like everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face. Like, yeah, I think that's the first test. And I I I'll be honest, I and I'm not a good poker player, so I know I make faces when this happens, but like if if we're playing against each other and you you set out to play and you do a thing with your list hammer and your math hammer, and the first time I disrupt it and you get punched in the face, you start whining at me, I'm gonna start rolling my eyes. Yeah. Because that that's the first test failed.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

It's my favorite part, actually. Yeah, I I this is weird and kind of like what's the word? Um masochist, I guess. But I kind of like it when I put together a plan and I set everything up and then it all goes to crap. I don't know. It's just fun. It's fun like to get out of those holes. I like being the underdog, I like digging out of the hole. I'll be honest with you. If if I am playing a game and it turns into a route, I I don't have as much fun. It's just not as much fun to me. So I kind of really love when and I don't do this on purpose. I still try to play straight up, right? But but I do like it when it's like, whoa, where did that thing come from? Like, like the Smash Captain, the first time you did that to me, and I I I wasn't paying attention and I I got smoked, and I was just like, Whoa, what I I think what I said was, okay, hold on a second. You just deleted those guys. How did that what what just happened here? Things are things are not going the direction I thought they were going. What just happened? Let's figure this out. But I love I love that. I love that, you know, that that puts me in this test framework, right? That puts me back into okay, now it's not what you thought, it's something different. Can you think through this? Can you get through that? And you know, we talk all the time about like changing your strategy mid-game and like knowing when to like do things like you know, go for the kill shot and stuff like all those things we talk about, right? Um, I think that getting, you know, this type of an activity, you know, uh like where something has happened, you yeah, you essentially got punched in the face, right? I think that that's that's right up there with those other big decisions of how are you gonna handle it? How how you know how are you gonna get through this test?

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yeah. The what are you gonna do when your initial plan doesn't work? And I one of the tests I think is if you can't adapt, that's that's a test. That's a test your opponent is applying to you because they get to play too. And I think that the the results of that test tell if if you are able to adapt and still do well. I think the results of that test tell if if you aren't able to adapt and you end up losing, or or you use it as as a reason to justify why you lost. I I also think it you know, it it's I think that's the first test, I I guess is the the bottom line that I'm getting at. I think that there's and there's a bunch of tests that kind of follow on to that one, which is the you want to know else what get what else gets a say in the outcome

Dice Tests

SPEAKER_00 36:35

of the game? That I think is a test. The dice? The dice. Yeah, the dice are a test because they they're in theory they should match up with your math hammer, but in reality that doesn't always happen. Dice are a fickle jerk. Yeah. And I that that to me, that's another test, and that's a that's another one that is very difficult. Like you you don't have control over it other than like you can bake in a certain depending on your faction and whatnot, you can bake in different ways to manipulate the dice, you know, either through re-rolls or you know, modifiers to the dice, or some factions having the ability to swap dice in and out, but it's you're still just influencing, you're not straight up controlling them. And we've all had moments where the dice will test you because they're not gonna do what you want or need them to do in that moment. So how do you respond?

SPEAKER_02 37:41

It's really funny because you're you're right, right? Like the dice are a test, right? They really are, right? You you just can't you can't control it. Like people have different theories and and rhythms to how they roll the dice and all those other, but the truth is, like it it's anytime you make a roll, you're kind of testing fate, if you will, right? You're going, okay, the probability says I should do this. Now I'm trusting that I'm gonna go through with this because if it doesn't work, well, I better have a backup plan, right? But it's funny. You got me thinking about dice now, and now I can't think of we all have our own dice that match our factions and armies and stuff like that, different colors and whatever, and all this other stuff. And we'll be in the middle of the game, and it's like, uh, these dice, they're just not doing it for me. It's because of the hard edges or the soft edges or whatever, they're this color. So you switch dice mid-game, and it it there's no logic to doing it, but I I do it at least once a game. I have two sets of dice that are normally in my dice box, and I will switch depending on whether or not I think one is going one way or the other, and it's totally superstitious. But sorry to go off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

It's a perfect way of proving it. The other thing is the like how many times have we seen you finish a game and the person who lost is gone, well, it was just the dice who were against me. It was just the dice. I just my dice were terrible today. And there's a part of me every time that happens, especially if I'm the one doing it myself, who's like, uh, was it really the dice, or are you just making excuses so you don't have to look in the mirror and look at the fact that you didn't pass this test?

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Every time, every time someone blames the dice and Eric loses a brain cell.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Yeah, it's because it's happened to all of us, and I'm not saying that they don't influence it, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

It's a it's a it's actually something that I want to get I personally want to get better at, right? Is I will be the first person to be like, man, the dice are really not in my favor right now. I am rolling like crap. And I I just I want to get away from that, right? Because it takes away from what you're doing on the table, right? It it it's kind of counter to what I was saying earlier, right? So I like being in that that underdog moment, but then then you know when the dice aren't going, I'm I'm switching to a different type of dice, you know, like these ones are these these dice god hate me, you know, or whatever. Um, and it it's not, it's just it's just the way the game is, you know. It you you could be the best player in the world, and your dice hand just isn't hot at that moment, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you didn't test yourself and come through with flying colors, it's just a part of the game, and it just is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Yeah, and it doesn't mean you can't win, because I think the test is how you deal with that and adapt your strategy based off of what you're seeing from the dice.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Yeah, for instance, right? If you if you haven't been rolling really well, well then maybe you give yourself you know better odds at rolling, take the sweep instead of the strike or something along those lines, or you know, um do splash damage, you know, try and try and mitigate whatever flow or feng shui your dice are doing that day. But it it's a changing factor on on you know when you're micro testing yourself in the in in the in the you know heat of the moment. I don't know. It it it's really an interesting thing to think about.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Yeah,

Matchup Tests

SPEAKER_00 41:48

it's and continuing on from it. Man, we're just hitting like all of my bug bug bears on this one, but you want to know what else is a test?

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

The power level of your opponent's army and how they play into your army and your list.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

So sometimes I really struggle with this one because I don't know it until I'm in the game. And I are fair's fair, right? I could be a better student of the game and learn all the different factions and all the different detachments and how they work. Being honest with you, it's not really my bag. Like I want to learn the ones that I'm really excited about, and that those are the things that I like to spend my time on. And if you ask me to read, I don't know, about every version of you know, different space marine detachment, I am probably not gonna pass that test.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yeah, but yeah, so I was less going that direction because I like I got it, but I we're hitting a point with the amount of detachments and factions and everything else out and data sheets out there. Like I don't know that I could memorize just what Space Marines and Guard have between the two of them. I don't have time to do that. So there there's what I was referring to was more of the like there are gonna be some lists that it's not true rock, paper, scissors, but you're gonna have bad matchups.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Like I can normally tell by turn two that this is gonna be weird. Like I internally in my mind I'm like, alright, let's get weird. This is gonna get weird. Okay, we'll see where this goes. Like, I I I mean we've had I've had plenty of games where I'm in that moment. I have not always responded the best um in that moment. You know, a lot of the things that we talk about on this podcast are because we've experienced some aspects. Aspect of it and we want to do it better. Um in particular, right? Votan against Imperial Knights. I conceded on turn three.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Chaos Knights, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

No, wasn't it Imperial Knights?

SPEAKER_00 44:15

No. How dare you insinuate I would play those first child vanilla Imperial Knights. I play the interesting ones.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

They all look the same. Man, I'm gonna get roasted on that.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Um I am seething over here.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Ah, that's fine. But anyway, you're right, it was Chaos Nights. I I don't I I don't remember because they were painted like Power Rangers. That's all I remember. Um, and this was a while ago. Give me a break. Um, yeah, I I you know what I do remember about that game? I remember that it didn't go well. It felt very slanted. I felt really like there wasn't anything I could do, and I was continuously getting frustrated with the way that I was playing, with the way that them the game was going, and I didn't want it to end in a a worse way. Um, not from uh like I I clearly lost by the end of turn two. Um, but it was more of like I I didn't want to like get upset about the game. Um, so I conceded. And in doing so, it was kind of interesting because I I learned a lot from this game actually, because I I walked away from the game, and if you remember, I I I left the room and went uh from the barn into the house, got a drink, and came back out, and you guys were still discussing the game, and and in discussing the game and where we were and the different things that were on the table, there was things that I could have done that would have helped me understand the way to play units and the way to do things, and I took the testing out of that equation. I didn't go through with the hard thing, I I didn't test myself in that situation, and quite frankly, it wasn't until we were discussing it all together as a group later that we were coming up with things that I was I I was like, oh well that's how I should play that unit, and that's what I should do. And these are the things that I you know could have done. And and yeah, if I'd have been in that moment and I realized that, okay, my back's against the wall, and and you know, it's okay, see this thing through, see this hard thing through to the end, I think I would have come away a better Votan player. Um, but I didn't. So I had to learn it secondhand rather than experiencing it firsthand.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Yep. Yeah, I mean that there's two there's two levels to your answer there. One, there are just some armies that play in a very mono color way or mono-style way, knights, tau, world eaters that that's just gonna be a test into itself because they're bringing a very this is gonna be a tidal wave. If you're not ready for this test, you lose, and it's gonna be a uncomfortable experience. There's that. But there's there's also like you're discussing, there's the when you're in a game and it's not going well because your opponent has brought things that either you didn't prepare for, or maybe just because we live in a dynamic meta, they brought a list that is more powerful than yours, or the mission flav favors theirs more. Those are all things, and and then what do you do as a result? Those are all little tests all throughout the game as well. That you to your point Yeah, they may stink in the moment, but you can learn from them and you can get better as a result.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

And I I I I've had you know plenty of games where it it turned into like a a slug fest. And you know, um because of that, you know, kind of exchanging blows and figuring where to that those are some of the best games that I've learned the most from. Um staying in it when it's kind of ugly. Um I just had a game recently where I played Cousin Josh with Death Guard into the multi, you know, Catan list, and I felt like that was pretty slanted, super slow army against a really kind of honestly fast, fast moving and well positioned to hold things army. I felt like, you know, yeah, a little bit. I'm I'm kind of behind the eight ball on this one, but I I played it through and yeah, I lost, but man, did I learn some cool ways to use different units with inside the Death Guard, and that was a that was that was a test. It was hard, and it was also really really fun because I feel like I am a much better Death Guard player now.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Yep. Yeah, it's all right.

Clock Tests

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Last one I got, and we're kind of dancing around the edge of your micro strategy question here, but last thing that has to deal with this that I think can also be a test, and I see this one play out in spades when I both play and then publish my battle reports is the clock can be a test, time can be a test.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

This is where Eric and I struggle on the table together. Because Eric plays like he's playing world championship speed chess sometimes, and uh I'm cool with it taking a little longer and going and you know, getting a drink or you know, talking about this thing, or taking a second to admire the terrain or the model. But you know, I we have had games where, you know, we're both middle-aged guys with fan, you know, both families, and you know, we have things to do outside of playing 40k um and making podcasts. Um you know, we're crunch for time sometimes, you know. For instance, you know, you you you have to take a day off from being dad, you know, and and that's that's tough to go play a game. So when you do, you're trying to you're trying to get as much out of it as you can. So one, that's a that's a environmental test. But then also inside of the game, the the clock works against you, right? The clock is like, you know, you're trying to get this game done. You start to feel the pressure, you start making decisions under pressure, and it's really hard sometimes to slow it down. You just feel like you have to rapid fire make decisions, and I think that by being tested by that environmental factor, Eric, you've learned how to use the clock against your opponent in a way that is very tactical. So you test them so that you you are the tester so that you're not the testee.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yeah, it's and you you took it a direction adjacent to where I was intending, but it's still a hundred percent valid. Is the you know you've got the life constraints of not all of us have infinite time to sit around and play one game and think for 30 minutes about every move we're gonna make. And I'm I'm busting your chops a little bit with that one. You are not nearly as but that one of the and and I do tend to like to play more competitively and more tournament style of the two of us. So I one of the balancing factors that they use is if you're playing at a tournament, you know, you have three, three and a half hours, four hours, depending on your your venue, your tournament, your game style, that they'll allow you to play each round in, and then it's dice down. So time is a resource. You can't sit around there and think about things forever. So you you need to find that right balance, like you said, of when to play fast and when to play a little bit on autopilot versus when to take that second to think. And that's something, you know, to your point. I definitely have learned how to how to use that against my opponent, use it to test them. It's kind of like what you've talked about in running in the past, where you'll talk about back when you were a competitive runner, you you you would run up right next to someone and you could use your breathing to try and mess up the tempo of their breathing. So there's there's definitely elements of that. And I think in some ways it's a balancing factor because there are some armies and some lists that work great if you're playing a five or a six-hour game that are completely non-viable in a tournament, unless you are the you know, 0.1% player, like that the list that I've heard that's a big boogeyman in the meta of right now, but only like five people in the world can play it, is recon guard. Because most people can't play a list with 250 guardsmen in a three-hour time period.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

I would never like I I love the idea, and I think I think at one time you wanted me to play play something similar, and I think you called the list it's raining men, which is oh yeah, that was the uh the bridgehead strike, yep. Yeah, yeah. And so um my issue is like that it's so many things on on the board, right? So getting back to what we were talking about earlier, and like you know, everybody can have a plan you know, till you get punched in the face. When you get punched in the face with 250 guardsmen on the board, um, I get the whole like next man up mentality, but there's an aspect there where it's gonna be like, man, now I gotta replan for all you know 236 of these people now. Uh, okay, all right, do that in a time constraint. That's gonna be tough. And so I from that perspective, I actually do prefer a lift structure that allows me to be able to feel like I can adequately move, like it's a manageable amount of the army for me to move on the table and do things on the table so that I don't forget things. Um, for instance, it would kill me if I left my death marks in reserves. Kill me. It would just thanks. And you're playing against yourself, you're holding yourself to a clock.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Well, it I am because I'm trying part of the test and part of what I'm trying to train myself to do is decision making under duress. Like that where I was originally going with the point, and you're you're you're moving in the direction of it, you're kind of winding up to it, is you know, I I publish all this, I I put all my practice games out on the internet for people to read. I post most of them to Reddit, and I I'll get comments, and it's not the majority, but every now and again I'll get one where it's like, hey, I've been reading your battle report and thinking about it, and like, why did you do this thing? In hindsight, it was obvious that was the wrong thing to do. And it's like, because I didn't read it and think about it forever and come to that conclusion. I made that decision in 30 seconds. Yeah. And that's that's the point, is how do you like to me, part of what I'm trying to test myself on is how do I improve that split second or that quick decision making, or how do I teach myself when I need to stop and and think things through? Because that that's a skill that's actually very useful outside of 40k and in things like work and parenting as well.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

I mean, it's very much my work type to like want to be in the fray of things, want to be troubleshooting, want to be like I I actually enjoy feeling that little bit of pressure. Um, so it's kind of interesting that I never thought about that, but it does translate to the way that I play 40k as well. Like, I don't like to have too much of a plan going in. And the reason being is I've told everybody on the podcast before, like, my favorite part of 40k is deployment. I love it. I love watching how people's brains work while they're putting their little toys on the table to move around. I think it's fascinating. I think that a good portion of 40k is also won and lost in deployment. And I play a lot of factions that that's the case. If you deploy bad, you will suffer. Um, and so I try not to over-math hammer, um, and my lists tend to be more generic and vanilla, and it's because I just want to be able to handle whatever it is that comes at me because I know that maybe I haven't planned for everything. And and I know I know that some of the people in our friends group I may drive nuts when I do this, but that is kind of one of the reasons why I like to do it, is because to me it it it's also a little bit of a test to to play the way that I do, and it's fun. It's fun for me to do that. I get a big kick out of it.

Conclusion & Outro

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Well, I think you're you're moving in the direction of what I kind of saw as the wrap-up for this, the logical conclusion, which is one of the areas where I think you and I are both very, very aligned when it comes to 40k is the point is the test. Like the the point isn't to always pass it, the point is the test and what you get out of it so that you can go back and get better, and so that you can learn and so you can get feedback. And I think there's a a way that you and I both approach it towards like, no, the point is to make it hard.

SPEAKER_02 59:04

Yeah. And and it's yeah, if you've already won, if you've already won when you're building your list, and you've already won when you did your math, then what's the point of even playing the game? Right? Yeah. Like for me for me at the test, the the that whole that whole aspect of this, right? The point of this is to challenge yourself. The point of it is to give yourself, you know, that opportunity to do something great, to do something special, right? And okay, maybe every time we play in the barn, it's not like winning a grand tournament. Who cares? You're doing something with your friends, you're doing something positive and constructive, and you're flexing your brain, and you know, there's plenty of other really bad things you could do out there in the world, so it is special. This is a good one, this is cool, and it helps you to, you know, we relate this stuff to work, we relate this stuff to our social lives. Like you can see aspects of that play out on the table the same way you can see it play out in in you know IRL. So it's I don't know. You're right, it is, it's about the test, it's about it's about challenging yourself and and stepping up to it too, right? I think the hardest part is towing the line, right? We talk about that with racing. If you've shown up and you're at the starting line, you you've you've you've already passed the first part of the test, you know. The next part is just you gritting it out with your mental balance, right? But it's showing up and and doing the thing, and you know, you said earlier, talk the talk, right? Walk the walk, talk the talk, be humble about doing both, and just enjoying the fact that you're challenging yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

Oh man, I mean that there's a lot in what you just said that I could unpack, but I'll I'll pull out two points. One, and I see this with most of the races I do, because I'm I'm I'm not out there doing Iron Man's and the local city marathons. I'm doing community things. A lot of them are to benefit the local fire department or school system, so they're family races. And a lot of them come with a hey, we've got three races today. We've got a 2K fun run that's really meant for kids, we've got the 5K, which is for most people, and then we've got the 10K if you're a hard o. And I usually run the 5K with my kids. And inevitably, at every single one of those, there's someone who goes out and blows the doors off the 2K, beats the field by a minute and a half. And you get this uncomfortable, like, I think you might be too big to be running this race, buddy. Reaction that the whole crowd has. And to your point, there's like that's not testing yourself. That's winning the race before you even start it. That's knowing when you line up on the starting line that this you're gonna win this. And for me, that's for me personally, that's not the point. Because the point is to test, the point is to do something hard. And one of the things that I think really is really cool about 40k is there are so many built-in tests that there's always the opportunity to do to do it. And the more you can learn and get educated on the game and how it works and the various levels of intricacy and matchups and everything else, the more you can set up really good tests for yourself and your opponent. And I I don't know. It it's just one of the things that why I got really excited to talk about this as we were, you know, leading up and spitballing some of the stuff is the like it it really struck me of man, the the point is the test. The point it the point is to to take the test together with your opponent, to do something hard together. Or at least, you know, when I'm playing with with you guys, my friends, or down at my LGS, it's that's how you bond with people. You do something hard with them. It's why people do things like Spartan races or these 5Ks or whatever. That it's a way of bonding with a group of people because you're all out there doing something hard together.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

I don't know. I just and the other one is I I kind of let drop this quote when we were in in the green room, so to speak, but it to me it keeps going back to it is like nerdy late 90s song that I loved growing up, the mighty, mighty boss tones, the feeling that I get. There's a line in there of I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested. I like to think that if I was, I would pass. For me, uh, one of the things I love so much about 40K is it it gives me a chance to go validate that hypothesis that I like to think if I was, I would pass. I can go test myself in a variety of situations, which is honestly what I'm doing with the battle reports and with playing practice games in my shop.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

I think it's really cool that we uh had no idea what we were well, we did have an idea of what we were talking about coming into the show, and we completely deviated. So I I mean, I just want to thank everybody for hanging out and you know having a conversation or listening to a conversation with Eric and I. I think this is this is a cool one, man. I mean, I've honestly till tonight I never really thought about it in the way that we just described, but I think that it's it's really cool and healthy to think it think through it that way. I don't know. I'm really inspired, like kind of gives me a little bit of a pep to like go try something new, try something different, and and maybe look at my next game with what is the test that I'm trying to accomplish here, you know, and and you know, think about how that impacts the different ways that I play, or even in that moment where I'm feeling that pressure, you know, maybe it's a way for me to slow things down and get clarity of thought. And you know, I don't know. It really it is a really interesting. Topic and way of thinking through this. And I don't know. This has been a it's been a fun conversation. This has been an enlightening one. I got lots of light bulbs going off tonight.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:11

Yeah, it it this might be one we referred to in the past. You know, we kind of see the podcast going in arcs where we'll hit on a topic and then there'll be a cluster of episodes that all kind of refer back and expand upon that topic. This might be one of those, because I mean the and maybe we do this next week. The the subject we originally set out to talk about today was you know how to manage your favorite toys on the board and what happens when they don't it doesn't go the way you want it to, or when they fail their test. Yeah, it that's a test. What happens like that's like a parenting test. What happens when your child experiences adversity? And I can tell you as a parent, that is way worse than when you experience it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:58

Uh I'm looking at you, champion, you little turd.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Looking at you, champion, looking at you, hecaton.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:07

Yeah. Didn't even you and the bus you rode in on.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

Oh man. Yeah, it's I don't know, man. It this was a good one. I I enjoyed this, and I I'm gonna keep thinking on this because I I don't know that we got all the meat off the bone with this one.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

For sure. I think that's a big one. So and I hope everybody out there thinks about it too. Think about the tests that happened for you. Think about you know, uh come up with your own. You know. It's just an interesting way of looking at at a part of the game that's that's kind of fun. Like I said, I think it's the biggest thing that draws people into this.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

Yeah, it's there's another one, by the way, Steve. You said something earlier I'm gonna go back to. And I think deep down there might be a faction that you really want to try that you're not admitting to yourself. Do you know what that faction is and why? Oh god, I'm I'm actually nervous. It's the Emperor's Children. Because you're the one who said I might be a masochist.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

Whips and chains do not excite me, Eric. Hey, you said it. I'm just calling you out on it. Are we really gonna do the whole like we're gonna have an Emperor's Children thing in here? It's uh just every episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:32

Not every episode, just the ones where I can force it in without completely derailing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:37

I'm sorry, folks. I don't have control over his microphone. I don't have a way of cutting this off.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

You know what, Steve? I am here as your test on a weekly basis. Yes, you are.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

All right, everyone. Well, that's our first technically back to back episodes. Uh quick turnaround, but we'll be back to our regularly scheduled uh interactions next week, and um yeah, looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

Take care, everyone. Good night.