38 - Where's the Beef (List)?

In this episode of the "Grown Men Playing With Toys" podcast, Erik and Steve take a hard left turn from their planned agenda and end up somewhere much more interesting. The cliffhanger from the All-Star Game has been rattling around in Steve's head, Erik has been 3D printing armies at an alarming rate, and somewhere in there "we lost Dad".

Along the way they cover:

• Pedal-Down Erik Strikes Again — two armies printed and painted in three weeks, a third in progress, and a theory about force dispositions that has already consumed most of his waking hours
• Where's the Beef (List)? — how a single offhand comment at the All-Star Game unlocked Steve's entire 10th edition play style and why he's been accidentally playing stompy robot armies this whole time
• The Wonder Mode Manifesto — why the space between editions is the best time to be a 40K player and why both hosts are fully, unashamedly in their feelings about it
• Force Dispositions: The Good — agency, modularity, different targets for the Nerfing Eye of Sauron, and why "2DP plus 1DP" may be Erik's new favorite term
• Force Dispositions: The Itchy Parts — deck stacking at the table, potential staleness in tournament play, and 3DP detachments getting counter intuitive Force Dispositions
• The Army Reveals — three new armies are coming in hot and Steve is already buying paints for a model he doesn't own yet

Whether you're deep in your own 11th edition wonder mode, still processing the end of 10th, or just want to hear two grown men figure out that they've been playing the same list archetype for an entire edition without realizing it.....this one's for you.

Check out our other content: https://gmpwt.blog/ | https://www.youtube.com/@GrownMenPlayingWithToys

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I made the comment to you earlier today, and you said something like, that is the most Eric thing I've ever heard you today. Of course you want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

They say we're too old. We say hold our dice. We're your hosts, Eric and Steve. Eric, what have you been up to, buddy?

SPEAKER_02 0:50

A lot.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

An awful lot. Well, there's a whole lot going on in the world today. So help me define what an awful lot is.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Um, all right, so I just finished up what will probably be my second to last practice game of 10th edition, and it was a lot of fun. I've started to slowly make the mental pivot to 11th, so I was playing two detachments that I think will be really interesting, maybe not meta, but fun and powerful in 11th edition. So I was trying them out to build the muscles with them. I, and this is where you can tease me about being pedaled down Eric, over the past three weeks. I have um printed and painted two full armies. I've just got about a hundred points worth of stuff remaining in one of them. The other one is completely table ready, and I'm in the process of printing another to be determined in the future or to be announced in the future army for you to play once we get to 11th edition.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Oh it's gonna be fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Yep. And then also they this week they had all of the releases of the detachments for each faction in 11th. They released their force dispositions, their detachment point cost, and so I've been just generally geeking out about the different combinations you can build and the different styles that those detachments will play and starting to build my backlog of here are the things I want to try as we get into 11th edition. We don't have the full picture yet, so it's still conjecturing a little bit, but I've been geeking out about that.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, I mean, I'm not normally one to nerd out about like the new edition and stuff like that. I normally like give space for you and other Josh and cousin Josh to kind of do your thing and figure it out and spend the time like rooting through all the rumors, but I I will say that like I think I'm so excited for 11th that it's kind of I don't know, it's it's something that even I am getting sucked into a little bit. I I I find myself reading about it. What's the latest release, what's the latest news? We just went through a couple days where they you know uh went through and and did you know uh different different releases of different detachments and and and what they would look like. And I don't know, it's just it's a really exciting time, and at least in my opinion, I know that that might be controversial to some people's opinion, but in my opinion, it's a really exciting time to to just I don't know, share in this hobby and be a part of it. I I would a hundred percent agree.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

I'm in full what you call pedal-down Eric nerd mode at this point.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

So

Why Eleventh Feels So Exciting

SPEAKER_01 3:54

okay, so you're printing armies, which is pretty cool. And for those who have followed us, you should know that sometimes we do print armies. We very much often send our hard-earned earnings to GW as well. Um, but real quick on the printing the armies thing. So something that I've noticed that we're doing towards the end of 10th edition is I kind of feel like we're a little more free with like what we're trying to do. Like we did the whole all-star game and um we did the whole, you know, thinking thinking through what we would do, you know, if we were to play that game again, and and all these other things. But then also it's got us kind of looking at um, you know, different armies too. Like, I I'm I'm definitely kind of being curious about different armies and things like that. And I think it's I think the reason that that's coming up is because I have no idea what they're gonna be like in 11th edition. So, I mean, we can conjecture and stuff like that, and I know they're starting to release stuff, but but we it's such a clean slate, so it's kind of like this freeing aspect of hey, the the the world's an oyster again, right? Or whatever that saying is. I I don't know what the same means. Your oyster, yeah, but like I don't know. I I don't know what are your thoughts on that because you and I have been kicking around a bunch of different armies that we could try and different things, and I I think it is because you know, kind of the the meta-iness of 10th is kind of on a pause. We don't know what 11th is, so it just kind of opens up this free space again.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

I I think you and I share a trait when it comes to 40k of we enjoy the journey more than reaching the destination. And what I mean by that is in some ways, playing 40k like folks will always talk about you know, has the meta been solved? And I think both of us really enjoy the the act of trying to figure out the multi-sided, like more than just six sides Rubik's Cube that is 40k, and trying to solve that hugely complicated puzzle and just enjoying kind of the wonder of I wonder what this thing does. And I think that's something that you and I both really, really enjoy. And so part of the excitement about 11th is it it's bringing all of that back, and it's kind of resetting what had been a lot of our our quote unquote solved aspects about about each of the factions we play. So it creates opportunities to to go into wonder mode and to explore different parts of the game or maybe different armies or different playstyles. And and I don't know, at least for me, that's the part that I geek out about the most. Like, you know, we're both competitive people, we both like to win, we both like the the social side of it, but I I really enjoy the problem-solving kind of exploration side of the hobby.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

I do too. I I and I think it it's interesting. So, like, so you come from a very much like you want the equation to balance out. You you, in my opinion, you like to see that happen and you like to kind of solve the equation. For me, it's kind of like no new ground, like so after the all-star game, we started talking about, you know, hey, maybe this is an opportunity to try some different stuff. And and you and I were kicking around, okay. Well, if you were gonna try an army, what would it be? Right, and out of that, right, we started to do some analysis of some of the games that we've played together or games that we've played in the Barnhammer, and um, you know, it kind of opened up uh my eyes to say, well, maybe the way that I thought I wanted to play and the army that I've been playing for an entire edition, right? Or armies that I've been playing for an entire edition, maybe I should try something different, right? This is where I tie it back to the 3D printing point that I was making earlier. Um because I don't know if we're gonna like any of these decisions that we're making, but it's a lot easier to do that and then put it on a shelf than it is to go spend thousands of dollars and put it on a shelf.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

I can tell you I already really like one of the decisions I made based off of the first play game with it.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

So well, so so you're you're you're getting ahead of me here. So in some of that decisions and thoughts and you know what we should should do, um, you know, an aspect of the way that we started analyzing our games was pretty cool. Um we kind of came up with you know thinking through different styles of armies, but not the traditional way, right? We we kind of grouped things into hey, um, I'm just gonna come out with it, right?

Steve's "Ah Ha" Moment

SPEAKER_02 9:18

So so when we looked at the way that let me tell the story, you ready? Because I think I got the right windup, which is so one, if you re-listen to the last episode we did when we do the the MVPs and the Magnuses of the game, there was a clear pattern for the MVPs of the list that you played of the kind of units they are. And you had a moment when we were setting up the game where you've teased me in the past of, and it ironically for me, it happens when it comes to the painting side of the hobby where you'll be like, Yeah, we'll be doing something, and then someone will make this offhand ruh reference, and we'll just lose you. Like, boop, there goes Eric. He's off in La La Land, he has disappeared into his brain because he got an idea. And I saw that happen to you for the first time because we're setting up the the armies, and you were trying to figure out the list and figure out the right way to play it, and I just kind of walked over. I'm like, hey, think of it this way it's not the exact same, but you basically have five 300-point units, you're playing a knight's army, and you went, Oh my god, and I lost you for about five minutes.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Yeah, I mean, it's real, it was it was an interesting way to put me into a perspective of another army that I hadn't played before, and then thinking through having I myself have not played them, but I have played against them. So, so that's kind of the construct that I I wanted to talk about a little bit because I got really excited because oftentimes when we choose like what we're gonna play, or we decide, you know, we like this army or we like this playstyle or something like that. Um I never before had thought about, well, wait a second. I got my ever-loving butt handed to me by a knight's army, and then I saw through what the knight's army was gonna do, and I wound up conceding on turn two because I had realized that this was not gonna go any further. Why, why did why did I do that? And I thought, well, I could see the patterns and I could see the way that it was gonna play, and I I didn't even need to really fully know the you know things like stratagems and loadouts and all those other stuff, and you can get into all the the math hammer aspect of it, right? But from a list perspective, the understanding of the list perspective, oh, and that was the five minutes of oh, well, wait a second. If I got played against and I got beat by this, so if I think my way through the way that I just got beat, and does this fit my playstyle? And then we went into the game, and that's what I was doing, and I'm like, wow, these decisions are coming to me a little easier, and I'm making good use of my resources, and I'm understanding like something's here, something is there, and I don't know, it was a really interesting perspective that I've never been in, except for that time, so so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I'll push back on that last part because I I've seen you be in maybe not that full like fugue mode, you know, channeling the your your inner knights player, but we did talk about it afterwards, and we did an offline kind of continuation of the discussion of last episode of the the armies that you have tried when you are most at your comfortable playing it well, and I think playing the game at the highest level. We we give you a lot of crap in our Barnhammer group because we'll say that you're playing something that is you know blatantly not even close to meta, but it's when you take the factions that you like and you backdoor your way into a pseudo knight's army, like you'll play guard with a bane blade, two Dorns, and two Lehman Russes, and a Bullgren squad, and then a bunch of chaff. And that even if a Bane Blade is supposed to be terrible, that is still the best I've seen. You play guard when you play Death Guard, you know, two Plague Burst Crawlers, Mortarian, two greater demons, and then a Terminator blob, like you, same thing. It it I think we made the joke of you're at your best when you play a list construct that is kind of the you know, it's all beef, and that's the the the archetype of the list, is you're really good when you can play a low unit count, high toughness archetype, and even your Votan. Your your preference has always been double Hecaton, double Sagittar, double Ein here with the E champ. You you like to have these big beefy units, and you don't want to manage more than eight to ten of them. You you want to keep your unit count low and you want to play with things that feel very elite. And when we did the crosscut of oh, yeah, he plays guard, but it's not like you're trotting out recon guard with 200 guardsmen, and when I joked about that, you're like, that would be my worst nightmare. Like, no, I want to play Hammer of the Emperor Guard, I want to play Hammer of Mortarian, Death Guard, and that and like your first knee-jerk reaction when the Votan Codex came out is you went right to Branfast, which was the transport detachment.

unknown 15:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

I mean, we even did a podcast about that, right? And and how it was a little bit of a struggle right away, because I think of the way that I was playing it. So to to to that point though, I'm trying to wrap my head around. You know, this thing that I've struggled to face, right? Because this is this is what was happening in that moment. This this thing that I've struggled against, right? I've played your chaos knights a couple times, and let's be honest, they're they're very similar, and it's the same kind of same kind of style, I guess. Um it's something that I struggle to play against. And that thing that I've been fighting against, well, I wind up actually playing like it very often, and it just put my brain into like this dizzy of like, what just happened?

SPEAKER_02 16:13

I would have I would argue one of the things that I've noticed when we've played is in some ways you have a better feel for chaos nights than I do, because like you know, again, there's the one infamous game where you conceded the top of round two, and you saw it before I did, and then when we started talking through what would happen in the rest of the game, you're like, Yeah, but like this was the moment, this was the thing that needed to die for momentum to shift my way, and it didn't, and now this, this, this, and this is gonna happen. And I just I don't see how I dig out of that hole given the amount of resources that you still have up, and you know, I I know you just said do XYZ, but if you do this other thing instead, it's checkmate. And I I found it interesting that and I I was on my way to getting there, but you saw it almost instantly.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

It's just weird how this game can just send you into so many different spirals, you know what I mean? Like when you told me this the other day, my I you're right. I for for a couple minutes I just was like, holy cow, I've been missing out on something this entire time.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Um and it's I I saw how you channeled that into the all-star game because you played your big beefy units really, really well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Well, I'm um well, maybe you shouldn't have told me that before we started setting up. Because I I kind of did lean into it and I was like, well, I'm see how this works. And you know, afterwards talking about it, the way that I would have changed that game, I I probably would have set it up to be a more where's the beef type of a of a game um for me. And and I don't know, so there's there's another side of this too that makes me that that gets my brain like tingling, which is well then are we too quick to like typecast armies sometimes? Because to your point, you just spit like three armies that I play, and I kind of all play them in a similar style, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it doesn't mean I I I try to be as competitive as I can be every time we play. But is there an aspect where you can blend your style across multiple armies and across different ways to do that? And and the reason I'm making that point is because again, 11th is coming down the pipeline, and there's this feeling that I have that that's where GW wants us as players to go.

Force Disposition Excitement

SPEAKER_02 19:18

I think what you're describing I mean that there's a couple different archetypes in there. I think there's a you know, the there seems to be a way of structuring an army that really resonates with you beyond the somewhat defensive board control style plays play that we have talked about in the past. I think having bigger, more elite, beefier units, but lower unit costs also resonates with you because I I think that it it allows you to focus your energy and you don't feel like you're trying to juggle too many balls at once. But I think there's also an aspect you're describing of that's where the force dispositions that they're introducing in 11th come into play. Yes. And one of the things that we might see, and it I I think that I'm a really good archetype of this. Of I I've got my own version of what you described of armies that I play really, really well, which is an 11th edition. I think I'm going to like purge the foe is gonna be my home base for force disposition because it's gonna fit the aggressive way that I want to play the game, and I tend to play all of my armies that way, sometimes to my own detriment, even if they're not designed to play that way. I think what we're gonna see going into 11th is you might get this tendency of force disposition specialists, and one of the things I think really is really cool is going through the 11th previews, there are a lot of armies that have like you don't have one army that has all the same force disposition for all detachments, you've got a smattering of all of them spread around. So I could see a uh oh a future where you know you lean into this where's the beef list construct uh across the different armies that you play, kind of a board control defensive type play style. And if I just you know do some scrolling across Warhammer community, like all right, there I can pick out things up across a bunch of different armies that could fit that. So you could play a slightly more aggressive version of that in Death Guard by playing Mortarian's hammer, where you're trying to purge the foe, or you could do that by pulling in another one DP where Maybe you play priority assets or reconnaissance. So that there's ways that you can try and combine the way that you like to build a list with the kind of armies you like aesthetically, with the kind of play style you like, and align those to a forced disposition that allows you to select missions that you'll find very fun and interesting, which I'm super excited for in 11th edition.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Yeah, I for me, like there's there's two aspects of this, right? So like again, I I'm gonna lean onto this idea that like I I play most of my armies in a knights style, right? But I can lean into that now, right? Whereas before it was faux pas, like don't do that, like that's not that's not the optimum way to play, or that's not meta, or whatever, right? But now I can, I can lean into that, and I am very excited about it. The other thing that I noticed, you know, around kind of what the force disposition kind of does is it can take those like fragile uh aspects of the game. So, you know, your your T3 units, if you will, right? Um it it gives them a different way to play, right? Now, we just talked about me playing night style with big beefy units. I got it, right? I'm now putting the other hat on. I got a lot of units that in my armies that are T3, I play guard, right? Um there's there's an aspect here where I don't just have to sit something on a circle and die. Like to me, that's part of the reason why when you're playing these big armies with like lots of units and things like that, like you don't really, in my opinion, get to play them all. Like, a lot of them are just gonna be fodder and they're gonna get removed from the board at some point, and so you have this model that you've spent a lot of time painting and that you love, and it's on the board, and you're really excited about it, and you have this really huge army, and half of them got wiped out because something had blast, right? Um, but now there's options, right? There's options, and you know, when I look at things like fragile things, right? One of my biggest issues with the Votan is the bikes, right? The pioneers, right? I just they're not my favorite, they're not my favorite model. One of the reasons I feel they're not my favorite model is you either get something done with them, or you have to bring them in as some sort of a reinforcement where they're gonna die the next turn, right? I feel like anytime I engage with them, um, they're gonna die the next turn. Well, this style with these forced dispositions, this the way that it's changing, it kind of gives me new hope that some of those more fragile units can can really get built into lists that allow them to be more moving. And you don't have to worry about, well, oh man, if I if I draw, you know, this mission or whatever, or if we're playing this mission, I'm I'm just gonna scrap them from the beginning. You get a chance to kind of build that out and and work that and and work your lists around those types of things. I don't I don't know. I'm rambling a little bit, but it's just I don't know, I see such potential in this.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

I'll give you two examples, and I've got the the website up, but you know, things that caught my eye knowing how you like to play the game, and I'm on the Leagues of Votan page, you know, that there's a couple combinations that when I looked at it, I was like, this sounds like the kind of thing that Steve could have a lot of fun with. The first one is so you you mentioned the bikes. Well, what if we combine the far seekers one DP detachment, which is the one built around the bikes, with the Need Guard Oath Band, the detachment you have been playing, which is a two DP one? Well, now you have the option to either do reconnaissance or purge the foe. And granted, you need to declare that when you're list building, but you can experiment in a couple practice games of, well, which am I more comfortable with? And do I want to use my bikes, which you were already playing in your Need Guard Oath Band list? Do I want to use them as aggressive assets to try and kill something? Or do I want to use them as reconnaissance assets to do actions? You don't have to do what you know. I've argued with you quite vociferously through all of 10th to do, which is you're like, but they're bikes and they've got so many shots and this, that, the other thing. And I'm like, yeah, but they've got this uppy-downy rule, they're just there to do actions. Now you don't have that either or you can build your list with a very clear role for the bikes, going, okay, I'm playing this force disposition, therefore, the bikes are in my list to do X, Y, and Z. Same with the the Yay girls. They're in my list to do X, Y, Z. The Capricus carriers or whatever that you play, they're in there if you're playing reconnaissance, those are all your action monkeys. And you can flip it of okay, the Hecatons and the Slapjacks, they're all there to create space for the other units to do their actions. And then if you experiment and it doesn't quite work out, you can go, all right, I'll flip it and I'll now try the purge the foe disposition. And now everything is just there of I'm there to kill the opponent, and now it's a matter of lining up the, you know, my bikes. I'm using the uppy-downey ability to try and get them lined up on the optimal targets instead of trying to figure out how to fit them into Eric's backfield to go do an action. So that I I think that's one. The other one that caught my eye with Leagues of OTAN is armored trailblazers with brand fast oath band. That gives you the option to play disruption or uh take and hold. And it both of them encourage you to run a lot of transports. So it gives you both a defensive and an aggressive type option for how to play kind of a beefier version of Votan.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

I just think I I know there's a lot swirling around about this stuff, and and I I I don't know. I'm I'm excited and optimistic about it. I I just think that there's a lot of really cool things that could come out of it. And the more that we're, you know, kind of in this wonder mode right now where we're in between 10th and 11th, and we're thinking about all the the possibilities that could be out there, the more I put myself in that space, the more and more and more excited I am to start playing some of these games. And and it's it's it's something that I I think is pretty cool. We don't get to do this uh, you know, all the time. Eventually we'll be into 11th and we'll be you know dueling it out. Um, but it's a cool time. It's a cool, cool time to be be a part of of things right now.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

100% agree. It's and doing that kind of like I just rattled off with Leagues of Otan, the okay, what what catches my eye scrolling through all these, both for me and for you, that that's been a lot of the fun I've been having this week.

Force Dispositions Worries

SPEAKER_01 29:53

So I've talked about all the good ways that, you know, this kind of works out, right? There's some kind of itchy ways that the forced disposition stuff kind of works out. And we were talking about it a little bit earlier today, and you know, thinking through like, you know, I think competitively it's taken care of with like, you know, you have to like name your your list and things like that in a tournament or you know, before before anything starts. But thinking through this, there's a way to deck stack through these force dispositions that that I think is is kind of a little interesting, huh?

SPEAKER_02 30:37

I I think there's a couple rubs with it, but yes, we'll start with the potential to deck stack. Let's paint a scenario, not that you or I would ever do this, but we rock up to play a game together. We both bring our armies and we do something where it's like you say, Hey, I'm playing Leagues of OTAN, and I'm playing Brandfast with uh I just switched out of my tab, the the Sagittarius 1DP detachment, and here's my list. And I go, Okay, cool. I'm playing Chaos Space Marines, Vets of the Lawn War with the new jetpack 1DP detachment. And then we both kind of look at each other and go, So what force disposition are you playing? And now you got this game of chicken, because technically we're supposed to declare it all at list building, but there's a hundred percent some competitive advantage to be gained of, well, I'm gonna wait for Steve to declare his force disposition, and I've got two options, and I'm gonna pick mine once I know what his is so that I get the most advantageous matchup based off of math hammering this one in the background. And like you said, in a tournament setting, no problem, because you have to put that on your list when you submit it. In a casual, that's gonna create an awkward moment.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Right. So I I don't, you know, some of the things that like if you read about it, right? Like, you know, it's it could potentially create some auto loss type scenarios where you know potentially you run, I don't know, uh you run one one you know DP into another where it's it's just gonna be uh an S.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

I would say instead of auto loss, it's you run into some potential that guy moments.

unknown 32:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Like the you know, let's take this scenario to to the ultimate extreme. You rock up, you're playing me, you tell me your list, you tell me your force disposition, I tell you my list, and I'm like, oh yeah, hold on, like turn around backwards, see me clicking away on my phone. Um, my force disposition is this, and it just so happens to be the one that's much better into you. Like, it'll create those kind of that guy moments. We'll just have to figure it out as we go.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

But this I just think it's fair to it's fair, you know, we've been praising it, right? But it's fair to also talk about the things that that could go bad, right? I I was reading uh I don't know, this guy was going off about um, you know, well I I I'm I'm planning to play like a horde-based reconnaissance type list, right? And and I really want to do that, but I don't really see a way that I can go against something like a purge the foe heavy list if, you know, if um you know the the game is rewarding for that you know killing my army and you know if they block me from being able to move, well then that's an uninteractive game, right? And I think I think that that's a part of that's a part of learning this new edition, right? But I mean it kind of beckons back to a lot of the things that we've talked about all 10th edition long, right? Which is the whole point of this is not to have an uninteractive game. So a little bit of this is while we get something new, there's gonna be some bugs and aspects that we got to work through and things we have to do uh to make sure that the games stay interactive. And I think that that's that's part of this. I mean, I I actually see that as an opportunity, but but the thing I was reading today, I was just like, oh, I can see the point, right? I can see I can see where some people are coming from, but it's way too early to even call that. I mean, to be honest with you, until we get a bunch of games on the table, I I don't think we can be that, you know, um negative about this, but it is fair to point out that those types of interactions could potentially

Potential Balance Implications

SPEAKER_01 34:35

be there.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

I think there's another level to that as well. I mean, my knee-jerk reaction to that is a well, if if you know the way that you want to play it isn't gonna be all that good, maybe come up with a different way that you want to play, or be at peace with the fact that you are choosing to play a way that has a one in whatever chance of getting absolutely dumpstered. And yeah, it's it's not it's not Games Workshop's job to make sure that everyone who has a specific way they want to play this, that's the optimal way to play it, because that's impossible. But it that aside, the other one that I've noticed, and I think I've seen the complaints on this one, I think it's much more prevalent, is and I'll pick on myself here. Like I I play Space Marines, play a couple different flavors of them at this point, but one of the lists that I've really enjoyed of late is the Blade of Ultramar Ultramans uh list, which is incredibly strong, incredibly killy, and it got priority assets as its force disposition instead of purge the foe. And it is three detachment points, which means I can't pair it with a one DP detachment to try and find a way to finagle it into Purge the Foe. And I think that is super interesting, even while I'm seeing a lot of negativity online of the yeah, maybe if I'm optimizing for the most killing power I can put in a list, Blade of Ultramar is a super powerful detachment, and it could be just a meta dominating purge the foe style list. But I think there's some level of GW is controlling for that and providing ceilings to some of the more powerful detachments by aligning them to force dispositions that are gonna make you build in a way that is different than just raw power. And that is super interesting to me.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Yeah, and I so I don't want to harp too much on the negative stuff, but the I'll be honest, that I I've been seeing a lot of people complaining about 11th. It's not even really truly here yet. Um, I just I just think there's an aspect of people just like to complain. But regardless, I saw another one of, you know, well, the guy made the argument that that because of the way that forced dispositions are laid out, it could potentially to make our list building more like stale. Um and specifically, he was talking about in tournament play, um, that you know, the way that the formats for the force disposition are laid out, that you know, you kind of have to lock your army in, and um what's gonna happen is this is going to potentially push people to choosing a more vanilla force disposition, if you can.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Like you're just gonna get everyone playing Purge the Foe and take and hold or take and hold, yeah. And you everyone's gonna be playing the same mission every single game on one or two deploy terrain layers, like, yep, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

But but but my caveat to that point is right, the whole point of this is modular, right? And so what you now, if if that's the way that like say say list building goes, say, I don't know, for the first six months of 11th edition in tournament play, right? Wouldn't you want to be the player that then finds the thing that goes outside of that vanilla scope that then allows you to be able to dominate both of those force dispositions? Because that's exactly what I would do. And you were talking about like the boundaries and the way that GW's thinking through this. I I think that that's what they're kind of promoting, which is I mean, that that makes the meta fluent in a way, right? So if there are these moments where there's staleness, right, in in the way that the list building has happened, and we've seen that, we saw that across 10th edition. It's not uncommon, right? But in the past, the way that you fix those things when you do have that style of staleness, if you will, is you put out, you know, an RFQ or you put out some sort of um points change or do a thing like that.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

A data slate, an FAQ, a balance update, and it gives you another lever you can pull.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Exactly. And so there's an aspect now where because of the modular design, it's not necessarily just GW that has to come in and rebalance the thing. This is where elite players can really, really shine. And and I I think that at least on face value and the way that we're looking at it right now, I really truly think that you're gonna see some really amazing genius come out of how to organize yourself, what you're doing with your detachment, what you're doing with your force dispositions to give yourself the best advantage in these situations and to work around something like staleness. So I I can understand the point and I get the argument that was being made, but at the same time, I I I don't know. I I can see the value in this that that it really, you know, for a player like me, right? Where you just we just went on for like 10 minutes about how I play the Votan like car like uh like knights. For a player like me, that's really cool. Uh I I just I think I think there's just there's more than meets the eye.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

I mean, I I'll give you an example, and it's a part that has caught my eye the most as I look at, and we don't have full context, so I haven't gone into full list building, but part of what I've been thinking of, and I made the comment to you earlier today, and you said something like, that is the most Eric thing I've ever heard you say. Of course you want to do that. But I made the comment of I think I'm gonna start by pretty much every list that I'm gonna try and play is gonna be a two DP plus a one DP. Cause I love the idea of if people stick to their comfort zone of playing the detachments that have been good in 10th edition, which is the three, which are now tagged as the three DP ones, now it's very predictable of what kind of game they're gonna try and play. And I can use my combination of having a two DP and a one DP with access to two force dispositions, and you know, I need to make sure I'm not doing it to stack the deck like we mentioned earlier, like right at the start of the game. But I can try and dictate what the mission is gonna be to my opponent if I know that you know, let's say that it's it matches the meta that exists today, which is there's a whole lot of chaos space marines playing packbound zealots. All right, there's gonna be a lot of people locked into playing priority assets. Well, I know that. So I I can build my list and try and figure out okay, what mission does and what matchup does a priority assets list not want to see at all? Do I have access to that? And you know, don't do it at the table, like we said, but if I'm in list building and I have a general idea going to a tournament or going to a league, that that's what most people are going to be sticking with because they're gonna be sticking with the three detachment point um detachments, well that that gives me another way to try and create some agency for myself in the game and to try and set the tone of the game. And I I love that idea.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah, and I think that the agency aspect, right? So like the disposition gives you the chance to be the owner of that agency, right? Whereas before, um before, you know, it it may not have been your your choice, right? The the mission was the mission, right? Um so I think that that's that's that's pretty cool. One of the other things that I think is kind of cool about it, right, is that it's a dice game, right? So there is a little luck involved in a lot of this stuff, but I think in the aspect of who you get paired up with and how it goes, like this reduces some of how much luck is a factor off of the jump. Um, and you get like that agency that you're talking about. I think it gives you a little bit more um control over that, right? Maybe puts the odds a little bit better into you getting what at least you want to get out of the army, is there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

It's so I don't know. I well, I could go on and on. I am I've probably got about 15 to 20 different detachment combinations that I want to try. Out and it I'm super excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

So I'm gonna say something that is a little bit of a shout out, but um our friends that play Raven Guard, I'm really excited for you. I am one of those friends. There's new paths to victory for you, right? I think that that's a big deal. I think that that's something that um this this gives you, right? The the aspect of being able to maybe emphasize movement uh over just you know the normal scoring points on holding objectives type thing. I think I think that that's really cool. So, you know, I kind of wanted to give a a little shout-out because some of these things as I was reading through them today and and this week, um, I was like, oh, I was like, well, that's good. I'm excited for that. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

So it I'll generatize that a little bit of I think there's a way in this for non-ultramarine space marine factions to shine a little bit. And the ones that have caught my eye, and it's not just me, it seems to have caught a lot of people's eye, are Salamanders and Raven Guard. They look spicy and they look fun. And combining them with Librarious Conclave looks like it opens up a whole lot of interesting options that look really, really fun to play.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

I wish the salamanders were a little less spicy. Because that's one of the armies that I was like, I really want to play, and I don't want it to be like I'm trying to chase the best army. I just want to paint them, if I'm being quite honest.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

Just play and paint paint and then play them and let the cards fall where they will. Because yeah, you know, it's not gonna last forever unless you're Eldarian 10th edition.

unknown 46:06

Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

I mean, they are winning a lot of the uh, you know, everybody out there is doing the what was the best thing in 10th edition? Or what was the one the other day was um who was living their best life through 10th edition, and it was like the Eldar. I was like, okay, all right, calm down, people. They had their struggles too.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Yeah, it it's I mean it's that time of year, everyone's just doing their 10th edition retrospectives, but yeah, it's I don't know, like you said, it it's opening up potential potentially underserved armies or subfactions from 10th edition, and it's giving them a chance to shine. Like another one that looks very, very fun and interesting, and I am biased as I'll get out on this. Harlequins looks really fun and interesting in the new 11th format.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, I think I think that'll be pretty cool because I kind of like the Harlequins too. Um I wish they would get more love in general. Um, but yeah, that that that is that's exciting. I I and I like watching you play the Harlequins. I think it's uh it's something that you like have a lot of fun with. Um, and it you know, it's it's pretty interesting to see. So so yeah, I kind of am excited to see what they can do too.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Yeah, it's I'm super excited about the forced dispositions, the different combos, and I you know, yes, we will have to work through, and I'll pick on myself here. Like, there are some moments of I was all excited on Chaos Day because I'm Mr. Chaos in our friend group. And then I, you know, I opened up the CSM one, it was like Renegade Raiders got reconnaissance. Ew. But that's fine. Maybe I don't need three defilers that have assault on all their guns playing purge the foe. I can see how that might be OP. And like Pac-Bound Zealots getting priority assets, I can see how having the super killy detachment getting forced to play a slightly different game is a good balance lever. So there even though there's that initial EU feeling, I can see how this is gonna be really good long term. And to your point, if you get some matchups that don't stack upright, and I'm gonna make this up, but like disruption or reconnaissance or garbage from a force disposition, it's another thing that they can pull the lever on during a balance update, and it's another way to, you know, during the quarterly balance slates, it's another way that they can try and balance the game by adjusting how those force dispositions play into each other without having to nerf people's armies directly. So I I love that idea.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Yeah, I wonder if it's gonna be something like that where they can take some of the sting out of, you know, the big old nerf bat, right? The the eye of Sauron maybe is changing, right? Maybe the the eye focuses in on what the force disposition is gonna be rather than focusing in so much on, you know, ha having to, you know, fully do a data slate or adjust um, you know, adjust point value or something like that. I mean, thinking through that, right, it it to your point, it gives them another lever that they can pull to help with the balancing aspect. And and we've all been there too, right? Where we're on the side of the nerf bat, right? And always our our first indication is like, oh, why did they have to do that? Like, I think they went over nerfed it or whatever, right? And and this could give maybe a softer change, um, or an aspect to a softer change that that maybe um maybe that's the reason why they they wanted to instill this. I don't know. I I think it's cool. And I didn't set out tonight to talk about forced dispositions, by the way, but I'm pretty excited that we're talking about this.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

I

Erik's 3D Printing Projects

SPEAKER_02 50:19

mean, I we set up, or at least I set out to out you as a dirty meta chaser who is gonna launch into salamanders and imperial knights next edition because you think that's gonna be the meta.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Yeah, but wait till you see how I'm gonna paint them. Then you'll understand why I want to play those two armies. I know how you're gonna paint the Imperial Knights. So I shh. We're not telling anybody in the barn how they're gonna get painted.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

Nope. And it's but yeah, so cats out of the bag. The army that I'm working on for you is Imperial Knights, and it's partially because I love having a good hobby project to work on, and I'm an engineer, so I like to tinker with my hands and work with technology. I don't love the painting part of it, so but I do love you know printing and assembling and trying to figure out the right way to get things to print properly, so that this was a cool one, and I had a bunch of PLA hanging around my house anyway. So, yep, printing you up a knight's army.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Well, the best part was when you started printing the army and you sent me a picture of it, and I was like, dude, that PLA color is wild, the color scheme's wild, and that just sent us off on this tangent to where we now have a full-blown color scheme, and actually I started buying paints for it so that so that I can um so that we can practice. We're gonna practice painting this on the printed models before I go and buy the really, really expensive or get my hall pass to buy the really really expensive real models that I will spend the next year painting because I'm fanatical about that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Yeah, it I mean you described the I'm fully aware 3D printing is a controversial topic in this hobby. I try and strike the balance of if it's an army that I play seriously, I will over time buy the models. But I started out by 3D printing because I play this game with my kids, and I wasn't gonna go spend thousands of dollars on GW plastic for my kids to make a hash out of it painting them when they were nine years old starting this. So it but I'm with you of the and I'm not a good painter, so it gave me a chance to try and level up my skills, but I'm with you of the over time. I'm slowly starting to replace a lot of the stuff, but it's a good way to get in, try something out, see if you like it, maybe paint it, work out a scheme, and then you go make the investment.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Yeah, for sure. Especially with the way that we don't know like what 11th is gonna be yet. I'm not quite ready to make a full-blown investment, although I mean I'm obviously going to use my starter box that I pre-ordered, um, to to to get me there for some of my salamander guys. Um, but but I think for me when it comes to like the the 3D printing aspect aspect of things, I prefer GW plastic on the board. I love the aesthetic, I love what they do, I love the way that they make their models. I just I just think it looks cool on the board. Don't get me wrong, I love 3D printed models too, but I'll be honest with you, when I have uh an army that is, you know, majority GW models, and then I have the one 3D printed model, I look at them a little bit a little different.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

We know I I've seen you do this with your Votan. See, I'm the other way around. I like there are some armies that I play that I love the army, but I do not like the way that the GW models are set up. I don't like the aesthetic of it, or maybe they're older models looking at you gray knights, and I love having the flexibility to to go off and find sculpts that better fit what I think the aesthetic of the army should be, and to to kind of build that up. Like it's almost like a form of kit bashing, but with less restrictions. And so I I love having that that ability to do not with all the armies, because there are some that that I love just the way they are, but there are other ones where I like having the flexibility to kind of make them my own and make them what I think would be a really cool aesthetic for the army rather than the one that the GW settle on. Like I I'll talk we'll pivot into what I've been printing out and painting and everything lately. One of the armies that it that I've been working on is the Thousand Suns. And I hate the Egyptian-inspired GW aesthetic that they have. I just I don't like it at all. Oh, there you go. But I found a really rad Aztec and Snake inspired version online, and I've been building and assembling and painting that up, and it looks fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

See, this is where this is where so so I'm not poking at you, I promise I'm not. Um, but this is where like for me, I guess I I guess that's where my paint schemes come in for me. Like I can make them what I what I see them as when I look at the GW model. Um so I mean I I guess I can understand why like the physicality of the model would be what you would trigger into. So I mean it may it makes a lot of sense actually if you think of it that way.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Yeah, and it's in some ways, because you've described in the past, I do this thing where and it it happened with both the armies I'm working on. So, you know, to to out myself with this one, my kids are old enough that I can start watching with them a lot of the movies that I really enjoyed uh when I was their age and then up you know up through growing up. So, and same with books. So my youngest has been reading all the Harry Potter books. So we sat down one weekend, me and my my two boys, and we binge watched some of the Harry Potter movies. And like my kids pointed it out because they've heard snippets of this podcast where we're watching the movie and how they were doing something with House Slytherin and the Death Eaters, and I did that like Eric just disappears into his own head thing, and my eldest goes, Oh, we lost dad because I was like, Oh my god. House Slytherin Thousand Sons, they're evil wizards. And but that didn't fit with a Egyptian theme.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

But I I was able to find one that was kind of a snake-inspired Aztec theme that fit that paint aesthetic really well. So it it that's kind of where it took me, and I I love that creativity and you know being able to to work on and customize a thing to to see that vision through. And it it came out really well. I'm super excited about it, and I think I texted you the other day after I played my first game. It was like, ooh, didn't see this one coming, but I think me likey Thousand Sons.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Yeah, you were pretty excited about it, which I don't know, I'm excited about. I think I think I know why by the way, I this is a total 180 from where we started the podcast. So thanks for following us on this journey, everyone. Um so I think with when it comes to the 3D printing stuff, I think it's in the painting that I actually struggle with it because I can sand those things till the cows come home. And I've tried like using um green stuff and whatever to like make it smooth. And and yeah, I know I'm probably gonna get somebody on here who's gonna tell me, oh, well, you gotta print it better or differently. And our buddy Dan would definitely have 7,000 opinions as to how I should probably print these things. But to me, the like the lines of the 3D printing tend to come through, and like we all right, so before everybody gives us a hard time, like we have both FDM and SLA, and you still get the lines and you still get certain things. I just find that for painting purposes, the GW models just work a little bit better for me, and because of that, I think that's I think that's why when I I think that might be why I called it the Derpaton. The 3D printed hegaton.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

It's fair, and I I care less about having a very detailed paint scheme than you. So it it's fair. I don't like plus I re I think I enjoy the process of the 3D printing way more than you do because I think you get in your own head about it needing to be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

I have a problem with 3D printing where if it doesn't come out perfect, I wind up trying to scrap it. I don't I don't really like there 3D printing is easy and at the same time it's very hard. And anybody who's spent enough time in the hobby, um, you know, 3D printing stuff, you you know what I'm talking about. Like there's times where just something just doesn't look right or work right, or or it's just got one little aspect of a deformity that you're fighting with the whole time, right? And and to me, that's frustrating. Now, with that being said, I am by no means, and please do not grill me, I am by no means saying that GW's models are really good because I'm gonna tell you right now, Maserog, that's the worst dang printed model I ever seen in my life. Looks amazing, lines up like yeah, I don't even know, like like some blind person put that mold together. I I don't know, it's bad. That that model to put together was a nightmare. Um, but it looks amazing, it's just got three pounds of green stuff on it to make sure that it all fit. So GW doesn't always get it right either. Not saying that, but I I think that from an S aspect of paint application and being able to get my painting vision out, I think that the GW models just work better for me. So that's why I think I I gear towards them when I want to have them on the table and be super proud of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

Yeah, I mean, I think the difference is what I'm hearing, you start with the baseline of the model and then you optimize your paint scheme to bring out the best in the model. Whereas I start with a vision of a feel of the army, and I want the physicality of the models to match that feeling, and then complement the paint scheme I've already decided on. And that's there's just a different emphasis in there. Look at me, you got me talking like an art major here.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

I know this is pretty interesting. I when I woke up today, I did not have any of this on my bingo card at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

One of my favorite things about this is the ability to mix and match a lot of my favorite things into this hobby I spend a lot of time on. So, like, you know, now I get a giggle every time I see my thousand sons because it's I've got Slytherin-themed Thousand Sons. And like I went to the the scene that got me thinking it was in the last movie when uh the the Gryffindor professor calls down like the suits of armor to come down and defend Hogwarts from the Death Eaters and Voldemort and everything. And I was like, what if House Slytherin had their own version of that? And oh, by the way, the Thousand Sun Rubrik Marines are supposed to be dust-filled suits of armor, anyways. And I just went deep on that what if. Yeah. And it turned out really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

I mean, they do look amazing, they really do. You did a great job.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Oh, thank you. And my boys immediately got it and started geeking out about it too. And then the other one, it's you know, similar moment, I kind of had that like, oh, we lost dad, and it was my youngest who pointed it out. Is we were watching Lord of the Rings, the Two Towers, and we got to the Battle of Helm's Deep, and I'm looking at the Uruk, and I just like Urukai world eaters.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a fit. I mean, there's a whole genre out there of people that do this with their armies. I mean, I've I've seen plenty of them towel painted like Power Rangers and um all kinds of stuff. I mean, there there's lots of things. I I I think I think it's really cool that you found kind of the niche for how you how you choose the aesthetics of your army. And I I understand the controversies around 3D printing, but also you like pick a new army to play like once a week. So I can understand why from a value perspective, you know, the amount of exploration that you do in this game, 3D printing is a really good option for you to try something. And it sounds to me like maybe one day you might um, you know, want to buy a I don't know, really GW version of The Thousand Suns, if if you ever want to up your painting.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

Or just I'll stick with what I have, but I for that particular instance, but uh a better example might be, and I did this last fall, I did that with Emperor's Children because that's the army that I play in my local game store, and out of respect for the LGS owner, I'm I'm not gonna rock up with a hundred percent 3D printed models. I'm gonna make sure that most, if not all, of my army is models that I bought in his store. Because he's he's letting us have the tables for free. He's engaging with us when we play the games. Out of respect for him, I'm I'm not gonna rock up and just play an entirely 3D printed army. So it it that's the compromise I've reached. So the the other side of this is the ones I print, these are just ones for me to mess around with in my shop.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

I just want you to buy a GW Thousand Suns character and have to paint all that trim.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Yeah, that I'm not gonna do that. That's the other reason. I don't like the Egyptian themed one. It's it's too much.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

I've done it. It's um it's mind-numbing.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

Yep. Uh that's the other reason why not I can find a good compromise with the the custom sculpts that I have.

Conclusion

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

So Eric, we've kind of gone all around today. We're gonna have a lot of fun trying to figure out what we named this episode, but I think it was a lot of fun. I think I, you know, I like this kind of you know, this kind of period we're in. I'm I'm excited to get started with 11th, but I I think it's really fun right now, and and it's leading to these types of conversations and it's re-engaging the wonderment of the game and and you know the excitement of it. So it's just a cool, cool time to to be in the hobby.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

Yeah, I I think so too. And I think one of the things we should do, you know, we we've tried to make a commitment to each other to get together once a month to play. I think the next day on the calendar that we have will be the week after 11th edition launches. So, yeah, we'll we'll have some time between now and then to toward to gear up towards it and to try and spitball ideas of the matchup we want to play and what we're each thinking. And maybe we can do that some of that here, or just I kind of like the you know, and and you know, full disclosure for folks listening. We covered everything we had in our backlog of ideas for episodes. You know, a couple, you know, we we kind of got to the end of that list a couple weeks ago, and we made the conscious conscious decision to transition to more of a hey, let's just what's going on, what are we up to, what are we feel what are we doing, and use this to be more of a you know, what are we doing this week and hold each other accountable to keep involved in the hobby. So let's see what comes out next week and we can pick the next topic from there. Sounds like a plan. I'm excited. Yeah, works for me too. And then, you know, if if folks have any topics listening that they want us to cover in the meantime, I don't think either one of us would claim to be an expert in this, and we certainly aren't going to be experts in 11th edition from day one. But if if there's anything folks want to hear us talk about as we transitioned into 11th, you know, definitely drop us a note.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

All right, Eric. Well, I think that's uh that's a wrap for tonight. I appreciate your thoughts, and this was a fun conversation. I had a blast, so I hope everybody else did too.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

Yeah, can I leave you with one final thought, Steve? There is there is one army that the GW, their sculpts are perfect just the way they are. Do you know what that is? Nope. It's the Emperor's Children.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:51

Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

We have to not make this our thing somehow. You know that you saying that is just gonna make me do it more. I know. I know. I also know that you have a little Emperor's Children cult that follows you around that loves it every time you do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:12

So they're just in the background going one of us, one of us. Whips and chains, he's one of us.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:22

Alright. Well, on that note, let's keep it G-rated. Thanks everyone for listening. Appreciate it. I'll see you next week. Take care, everyone.