40 - I Feel the Need...The Need for 11th

Erik is back from the tabletop trenches with a full debrief.  He is two games deep into 11th Edition, has played four factions, and is ready to hype Steve up for an upcoming week of Barnhammer gaming. 

Along the way they cover:

• First impressions of 11th Edition — Erik's surprisingly enthusiastic early verdict and why going from 10th to 11th feels nothing like the chaos of 9th to 10th
• Asymmetrical missions and force dispositions — why playing two different missions at once makes the game feel more dynamic, more narrative, and a whole lot harder to just list-hammer your way through
• Raven Guard vs. Grey Knights — Shadowmark Talon meets Hallowed Conclave, Terminators and Paladins finally get their moment, and Erik discovers mid-game that the scoreboard doesn't care how well the Grey Knights are playing 10th Edition. Read the full battle report here.
• Emperor's Children vs. Necrons — Fulgrim goes absolutely feral on turn one, crosses the entire board, and the Necrons win anyway. Read the full battle report here.
• Recalibrating your instincts — The autopilot moments, the ingress rule surprise, and why the thing that wins you the game is rarely the unit or combo you built your list around
• Rapid fire observations — the new charge rules, activation economy is a thing, lethality, hidden, and why the "and then" moments are alive and well in 11th

Whether you're here for the hot takes on Force Dispositions or just want to hear Erik chastise his own Grey Knights, this one's for you.

📖 Read Erik's battle reports at gmpwt.blog
📺 Watch on YouTube at @GrownMenPlayingWithToys

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I have not had a game where one side felt just completely helpless, like the other person stuffed them into a locker and was just giving them noogies for three hours. Like that that has not been a part of my experience so far.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Eric, I know what you've been up to. I really want to know how it's going. So what have I been up to? I know that you've gotten your first two games in of 11th, and I also know that I have not been able to talk to you about it. So you're sitting on a plethora of things that we should probably be going over since I guarantee you have a lot of reactions to the things that have happened in the two games.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yeah, that they're starting to become deep lore of our podcast of you go away and do vacation things, leave me alone, and I go off the deep end.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

I th I mean, yeah. When yeah, I mean, come on. And and on top of that, your brain kept going. So you're like, okay, naturally, I need to go to a spreadsheet mode. So okay, let's let's re-rack, reload, next game, next, next two factions. Let's let's see how this one goes. So um, yeah, so so you've played two games.

First Impressions of 11th Edition

SPEAKER_02 1:56

So before we jump into the games, um, and like any particulars about them, like so far, like do you like 11th? Like, how's it feeling?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I'm really enjoying it, and the caveat goes along with this uh two games deep. So this could just be the honeymoon period, but I like 11th better than 10th edition so far.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Really? Okay, so I don't wanna I don't that could be a whole podcast unto itself, and probably once we get a bunch more games in our system, um you know, I I actually think that would be really cool to kind of talk about that, like what what we like, what we don't like type thing, but um we'll get there. We'll get there. But anyway, so right off the bat, is there something specific that you like? Like, is there a particular thing about 11th right now that you that you think is like swaying you this way?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, it's so it I think it's a I'll throw a couple broad things out there and we can expand upon them. First one is it feels much more dynamic to me, and some of that could just be brand new meta, the ability to combine detachments, like it's not a solved meta at this point, but the game feels a lot more dynamic than 10th edition did. 10th edition, I think it it comes down to the asymmetrical primary missions that are that you get when you do the force dispositions, but it you don't get the oh, we're both playing take and hold, so it's just hold one, hold two, hold three. Like you have very different missions that you're both trying to play. I find it makes for a lot more dynamic, a lot more flexible, a lot more interactive game, which I find exceedingly fun. Second one is the games go a lot faster, I find. Um, which it I I like. They they seem to have done a good job of stripping some of the tedium out of the game with some of the changes that they've made while still keeping the fun in it.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

And then the last thing Do you think the mechanics are actually driving the faster gameplay, not like the changes that you've seen in the mechanics you think are driving a faster gameplay, or is it more so that like the rules themselves are just like more organically fitting together?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Both. I think it's both. Yep, I think it's both. And then the last one is it so far, at least for me, it it delivers on the promise of feeling more narrative. I've played two games, I've played four different factions. I would say three out of the four felt incredibly narrative when I played them, and the fourth one was only because I picked the wrong four force disposition. If I had picked the correct force disposition, which I did have access to, it probably would have felt much more narrative. So it's like three and a half out of four in my mind, which you know, it it just it felt a lot better. The army list when I built it seemed to make a lot more sense. And and I was I always felt like I had agency to do something in the game.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

So okay, so there's a lot to unpack here. So if you've tapped on two things that I think are really interesting so far. So and granted, I know you're only two games in, but to have flexibility in the agency, that's really interesting. I think that's a whole topic unto itself that we could talk about. Um how how you feel already that the rules and the mechanics are gelling together. And like, I wasn't expecting you to tell me that the game is play faster. Um, that actually kind of blows my mind, given that you know, 11th literally just came out, and we literally have never played these rules together, nor have we played these factions together. So it's kind of interesting. Now, with that being said, and I know you're very good at uh at breaking down rules and you're very good at summising everything. I'm sure that there were some mistakes that were made and things that we're gonna need clarification on as we continue to go, but I didn't feel any of these ways when 10th edition came out. When we were playing and we were first learning it, the first couple games of it. Um, right off the bat, I think that my feelings gauge was quite different than the way that you're describing how you're feeling about your first like foray into 11th.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah, that's fair. And it I think to be fair to the two circumstances, it there might be a little bit of apples and oranges going on there because 11th edition built upon the 10th edition foundation versus going from 9th to 10th was a complete fundamental reset of the game. So I think you know part of it is there was just a whole lot more change, like everything changed when you went from 9th to 10th. Going from 10th to 11th, I'm still playing, I'd say it's 85% the same core rules. I'm still playing with a lot of you know all the same codexes, you know. Granted, some of them have new detachments or tweak stratagems or you know, definitely updated points costs, but I was building upon a base of things I already knew. And I would say for most of the armies that I've played so far, they're ones I already had experience with. So that's that's part of it. But I don't know. I I still stand by the I think there is a structure to the game that was added that makes it feel significantly more narrative, makes the game flow a lot more and move a lot faster. Um, and and I'm not talking about like the pause while I go look up my rules, or I built that one guard unit that has what seems like a unique weapon for every dude, and I need to take three minutes to roll out each one. You know, that stuff can still be there if you wanted to, but there's a lot less, you know, me and you staring awkwardly at each other while we try and figure out a rules interaction, or while I try and bait you into making a mistake. So that there's just a lot cleaner format, I find, to the way the game's structured. And lastly, that the again, I can't stress it enough. I love the asymmetrical nature of the the primary mission, and I love what forced dispositions does. It I find that part incredibly fun.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Yeah, I'm really excited to see it play. I I obviously I've been doing a little bit of vacationing and um not really focused so much on Warhammer here the last couple weeks, but it not that it hasn't had my attention, it's just that I haven't had a chance to play. But I'm really excited to see in the next couple weeks the how it's gonna lay out on the table and and get my feet wet with it. But it sounds like a pretty positive, like overall first kind of you know, jump in. So um that's that's really good. I mean, we're pretty positive about the game anyway. I think if we're gonna be honest, you know, you and I are gonna put a positive spin on things, right? Just just just because. But with that being said, I think that the things that you're calling out are really interesting from a perspective of I don't know, my gut is just saying it, you know, it's just a different feeling than 10th. Um so all right, so let's jump into some of the games. Let's let's talk about some of the things that that you have been doing. So what was the what was the first game you played? I have not read the battle reports yet because I knew we were gonna do this conversation. Um, so I didn't want to kind of like cheat. Um, so I'm learning this with every one of you for the first time as well. So, Eric, what what was the first game you played and and why did you pick those factions?

Game 1: Raven Guard vs Grey Knights

SPEAKER_01 10:07

So the first game I played was the Raven Guard versus Grey Knights. And I played Ravenguard, Shadow Mark Talon, which is their unique. If you bring Ravenguard only units, you get an extra rule detachment. And I brought it with Librarious Conclave, which is the one you were teasing me about a couple of weeks back when you said, like, I got my eye on you, Ravenguard players. You might be cooking, like, yep, Librarious Conclave plus Shadow Mark, that that's a spicy meatball. And then I played it against Grey Knights, where I played Hallowed Conclave, Virt and Argent Assault, which meant I got to spam Terminators and Paladins. And I did that just because I haven't gotten, well, I shouldn't say gotten. Terminators and Paladins weren't good for basically all of 10th edition. So this was my chance to to bring them out and see how they they did and have them potentially be good.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

So walk me through like the first steps of the game. So you're you're in this new thing, you're you're reading both both codexes, essentially, right? Um you're reading about both both armies and how to set them up. What are you thinking right off the bat? Like, did did was there any was there any way for you to evaluate whether or not like you felt one way was gonna be good? I know we talked about Raven Card a little bit, but you're kind of also a little biased now that you've played them. Um but in the beginning, did it the way when you're setting it up, that did you feel like, oh, this one's gonna be a bit of a slaughter, or I don't really know how this is gonna go? Like, how how did it feel when you were kind of assessing the armies against each other?

SPEAKER_01 11:51

So far, both games have been a I don't really know how this is gonna go. And I deliberately set out as a I want to introduce incremental change so that I I always start from a place of okay, I've got enough familiarity that I kind of know what I'm doing, and then slowly add in changed variables. So for the first game, it was I was playing Raven Guard a lot over the the past, or a lot for me over the past six months or so. So I wanted to start with I know Shadow Mark Town pretty well. I've played Librarious Conclave a couple times last year, so I have some familiarity with it, and I already kind of had an idea of the different combos that would go well from both of those. So I started with that and said, okay, that that's a good foundation. And now I want to start experimenting with the force dispositions. So I wanted to try reconnaissance because you know, right now everyone in the meta is saying, well, purge the foe is where it's at. You just play purge, that's the strongest, go play purge. And I think you and I were talking before this. I am always gonna zag when other people zag. I just it's in my nature. So, okay, I I want to go learn the other force disposition. So I'll try reconnaissance. You read up on that, tweaked my list a little bit. So I built the list around I want to play Ravenguard, I want to start with a lot of things I know well in Space Marines, but I want to play this brand new force disposition that I don't know all that well. And then on the Grey Knight side, I kind of inverted it and said, okay, the options I have are Purge the Foe and Take and Hold. Again, contrarian, I don't want to play Purge the Foe, I'll play Take and Hold. That still sounds like pretty vanilla 10th edition Warhammer, so that's familiar. But I'll tweak the list and I'll bring out a bunch of units I didn't play for most of 10th edition, which are Terminator's paladins and the Terminator armor characters. So trot out a list that features a ton of those, and especially something you never saw in 10th edition with Grey Knights, which is big 10-man bricks of paladins and terminators. And so I started from that the perspective of these two lists that had a certain amount of things I found comfortable, things that were new and interesting, and then I just kind of did a okay, let's I have no concept for how these are going to play against each other because I don't know what the new primary mission and secondaries are going to look like. I I've read them, but I haven't experienced them. And I treated the game as a I I think I typed out my battle report, like I'm not even at the point where I'm trying to optimize at this point. I'm just trying to lay a foundation. This is trying to get a feel for what it means to be good in 11th. I'm trying to drop some of my 10th edition habits and preconceptions, and I treated the game like that.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

I mean, I think I think that's awesome. I think that that's how I I personally really want to try to go after my first couple games in 11th. Like I really want to set it up so that it's less of okay, let's go see who wins this, right? Let's let's let's see who's the best player of Warhammer. Well, guess what? We don't know right now, right? Because no one knows yet, right? Um, and I I really want to kind of learn the addition the first couple games, and it's more about like I almost feel like I want to keep a scratch pad or a notepad or something with me while I'm playing to say, hey, that felt like a little different, or um I don't know if I did that right, and like give give myself the ability to go back and kind of review and like have like almost like a a retrospective of each game, uh at least in the beginning, just so that I can kind of you know, I don't know, I want to do a better job of learning 11th than I did of learning 10th, because I kind of feel like I went into learning 10th, like, oh I know what I'm doing, and like this is just another edition. Like, who cares? Like, this isn't a big deal. I know how to play this. Um, and I think it it it was harder the first you know couple months of 10th edition for for me than I expected it to be. So for 11th, I am I'm trying to maybe adopt some of the things that you're talking about. I I think that's a really cool perspective to go into playing these games. I'm granted you're also playing yourself and you know in on your table, but I know that you're like a oh man, I'm gonna say the most cliche thing. You're a student of the game. Um I'm sorry, I had to say it. Um, but I I know that you go in with that perspective, though. So that's really cool to see that translate to the new edition, and and it sounds exciting. So all right, so how did the game go? Walk us through like, you know, you you got into it, you're you're playing, and and like I I don't know that you necessarily need to go detail to detail. You know, folks, he he did publish a battle report. Go please go check out and read Eric's battle reports, they're amazing. Um, but you know, turn one right off the bat, you know, did you have things that were like, oh wow, I didn't expect that, or did it just kind of go the way you kind of thought it would?

SPEAKER_01 17:19

What I found and it it ties back nicely to one of the things that you said you want to do for yourself is and I found this in both games. It was it it and actually it was just as strong in both games is uh I needed I still need to because I don't know that I've fully done it yet. A recalibration is needed of your in-game instincts moving from 10th to 11th. And what I mean by that is so you know, Grey Knights versus Ravenguard, I won't go into all the details, but Ravenguard won. And they won pretty handily towards the back half of the game. And one of the first things I found is, you know, I went in and I've played a lot of gray knights. You've played against me with gray knights, they are one of my stronger factions when I play them. And I went into it and I'm like, oh, I know how to play Grey Knights. Like, okay, Ravenguard got first turn, cool, I'm gray knights. I want to go second because then I can upbee down y all around. And so I go to start doing things, and I'm like, oh, they changed the ingress rule. So if I go into strat reserves, I can't teleport in round one like I I usually can with gray knights because that's an ingress move, and it's now in the core rules. You can't make an ingress move in round one, just flat rule, unless it explicitly states otherwise. Grey knights detachment and data sheets don't say that. Oh, okay. Well, that that's a I got caught on autopilot moment. Then second thing is as the game started progress and I'm playing the gray knights, it's playing take and hold, so there's a lot of go stand on objectives, go kill things on objectives. And I'm playing the gray knights, you know, and and I'm playing the Raven Guard, and I get to about turn three, and I'm looking at the scoreboard, I'm like, that this doesn't feel right. Like, this is all wrong. Like that look, the Grey Knights are winning. Like, look, I I'm standing on three of the objectives. I've killed all this stuff. Why are the Ravenguard ahead by 20 points? Well, it's because the Raven Guard's rules didn't tell them to go stand on objectives and kill things on objectives. So, yeah, the Grey Knights were standing on objectives, but everything they killed from the Raven Guard was not on an objective, and the Ravenguard's mission told them to go do a bunch of other stuff, and the Ravenguard were doing that much better than the Grey Knights were doing at standing on objectives. So there's almost this like recalibration mid-game where it's like, uh uh, the Grey Knights are playing 10th edition. I got stuck on autopilot.

Force Dispositions Really Matter

SPEAKER_02 19:58

So, spoiler alert, you're confirming things that I think you and I kind of thought was gonna be the case when we were, you know, doing our research and reading up, and as things were coming out about 11th. But it sounds like in real time, um, you know, you were you were kind of seeing it play out that 11th is going to be that much drastically different than 10th. And it sounds like because your missions aren't the same, right? Because you're you're essentially playing two games within within one, right? You're playing your game, you're playing their game, because you have to think through their missions too, and then you know, you're on the board playing with each other, right? And it's kind of cool that already you're seeing that you're having to rewire your brain. Because I think I'm gonna give a hot take here. There's a whole lot going around in the community about the meta's already been solved, and like you know, these two force dispositions are gonna be the one that you know are gonna take it, nobody else is gonna do anything else. And I think that the truth is that's because you, when I say you, I'm talking about the community, the community, in my opinion, hasn't had a chance to really fully evaluate all of these other force dispositions and all of these other missions, and or how those missions are actually gonna work out on the on the tabletop. And so I find it really interesting that you know you're testing out reconnaissance, which is you're kind of like you said, zigging instead of zagging, and you're you're already seeing that. Oh, wait a second, the way I thought in 10th edition might be wrong here, and oh, now I can see how you know this change to you know the core fundamentals of the game is really gone to. Adjust things.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

I'll give you an example to prove your point. And it's from the Grey Knight Ravenguard game. So, and I forget the exact mission that came from the combination, but Grey Knights were playing Take and Hold, and Ravenguard were playing Reconnaissance. And so Grey Knights' mission, that their parameters for scoring basically said get out into the midfield and sweep your opponent off the board. Like that there were no points awarded for controlling your home objective at all. It was all about getting out into the midfield, controlling midfield objectives, and pushing towards the other side of the board. The Raven Guard's primary mission was you get a little bit of points for killing one thing a turn, you get a little bit of points if you hold any objective that's not your own deployment zone, your own home objective, but it only has to be one. And then you get a lot of points if at the end of your turn you have three units in three different board corners, and you get more points if you have four units in four different board corners. And so, right off the bat, like it, I think one of the common things of 10th edition is so let's say you and I are playing, and I'm I'm trying to play a typical kind of board control type of approach that you like to play with your guard, your Votan, and your death guard. I can at the same time push out into the midfield, try and control the midfield while also controlling my deployment zone. And I can occupy half the board and score really well. That was a viable strategy in 10th edition. The Grey Knights could not do that in the game that I played against the Raven Guard because the mission was telling them get out of your deployment zone, push forward, move, everything moves forward. And so I was almost faced with this challenge, and that and I found myself as the Grey Knights, I got caught on autopilot. And like you ever have one of those moments where you have an either-or choice and you have to pick one, and it'll be okay if you pick one of the two, but the wrong choice is you dither and you don't really you like you try and split the difference between the two. Yeah, for sure. So that's what I tried to do with the Grey Knights. I'm like, well, it I want to deny the Raven Guard's points, so I want to screen out my backfield so that they can't get into my backfield. So I did that for three turns, but then I'm like, but I'm way behind on points now because I haven't pushed fully out, so I'm not blocking the fact that the Raven Guard can hold one objective and they're still killing things, so they're still getting points, and I'm not maximizing my primary, so now I'm behind, so now I need to push out. Now that I pushed out, oh, they can get back behind me again. So you almost have this you can't do both like you used to be able to do in 10th edition of I'm gonna max my points and deny you at the same time. It's an either-or. You you almost have to pick one of the two, and I find that really, really interesting because you have to commit to one. You it and granted, two games deep, so I could be way wrong, but it seems significantly harder to build a list that does both of those things and then just blows the doors off their opponent as a result.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

I think we said it in the last episode too, that I I think the way that it's kind of set up and and it sounds like you're experiencing this is like not only are you going to try to force your opponent to have to make decisions and then work around whatever that decision is that they made, but at the same time, you're making a decision about something, right? So it it feels like GW has kind of built this aspect of we're gonna add more decisions for you to have to make, and you know, it there's not really an optimum one. There uh potentially there could be a better one or lesser one, but there's not, but but they're all gonna come with some sort of a consequence, you know what I mean? And it feels like it's it's a game of balancing out the consequences so far. And I mean, I I know everybody's gonna be like, duh, Steve, that's what it's been like forever. Like, I get that, but it feels like with the way that things are set up now, like GW's coming straight out and and kind of like right off the cuff saying, Yeah, you're gonna have to like choose which consequences you want to do to you want to work with. And the games are gonna be more theatrical because of that.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

And and I'm gonna keep going back to the word asymmetrical, of you have an idea of what the other person's trying to do, but it's very different than what you're trying to do. So you can't just you can't hard counter what the other person is trying to do by doing the thing that scores you the most points. That is now from what I've seen, and I have not tried disruption yet, which seems like it might be the one that most aligns with that, but that's also one everyone's saying is the weakest, which is kind of interesting. But in all the games I've played, and I've tried reconnaissance, priority assets, and take and hold, in all of them, there wasn't this. Well, by doing the thing my mission is telling me to do, I hard counter yours and I stop you from scoring points. That that doesn't ex hasn't existed yet. And so you get this real weird of uh, well, it I I can't just go about my game plan and maximize my points and cancel you out at the same time. Now I have to choose between doing either one of those two things, and then I'm gonna have to deal with the consequences of what happens if I choose that one incorrectly, or if I choose it, but it, you know, something happens and it doesn't go exactly how I envisioned. The other thing I've noticed is there's a huge, there's a lot more flexibility, resiliency, and just kind of making stuff up on the fly that needs to occur. That has been a theme in the two games I've played almost every turn. Um so far I have not had a game where I went back and was like, yeah, that plan that I made at the beginning of the game, that worked perfectly.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

So I'm gonna deviate for one second just because I don't know. As you're talking, I'm like getting excited about stuff. So when we do like Barnhammer, right? One of the things that that happens is you know, everybody pretty much hangs out and it's like Warhammer 24-7, right? For for a couple days straight. Um, and one of the things that I'm excited about is we normally find some channel that's streaming games or we watch watch them on YouTube or or whatever it is. I have not watched any like um, you know, shout out to like play on tabletop or something like that, or 40k and 40 minutes type thing, right? I haven't really watched any of that stuff on 11th because I I don't really want to spoil my first experience with it. And but the way that you're talking through it, I'm so excited to watch some of those because it just I don't know, towards towards the end of 10th, it just felt like it was like a like the game was prescribed, and it's not I'm not talking about like MetaSolved or anything like that. I'm talking about anytime that you put something on the table, like it was kind of prescribed, and we talk about like list hammer and math hammer and all these things, and there was an aspect where I think 10th really allowed folks to optimize list hammer, and I think that you know, even I did it too. Like I would watch, I would see a game or something that I would watch, and and right off the bat I would go, oh that that detachment of that army's going into that, and they're playing this mission. Yikes, right? I would do that, and what it sounds like to me, based off of your observations, I haven't had mine yet, is that that's what GW's trying to fix here.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah, it I think I mean it yes, because I I think what they're trying to do is create more interaction, create more of those moments where you're like, I can't believe that happened. And also avoid some of the fun for me, but not for thee type moments of you just feel helpless because I list hammered this and I won the game before we started. And which leads to another observation of so like the the first game I was describing, and I told you, you know, Raven Guard won, and I think I told you beforehand, like I I had that moment middle of the Grey Knights game where I was like, Oh, like what the heck? I feel like I'm winning, but the poor scoreboard doesn't reflect it. Like it this is so not cool, and what what's going on? And then it was all downhill from there for the Grey Knights. So, like, I don't think I played that game especially well as a Grey Knight player. I think there were some fundamental flaws in my list. I think I chose the wrong force disposition. What do you think this point differential was at the end of that game?

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Was it was it huge?

SPEAKER_01 32:06

It was like 25 points.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

That's not huge. That's like that that's like a couple little swings in a turn. Like that's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Raven Guard played to my eyes what looked like as close as could be expected to a great to excellent caliber game, given it's the first on a brand new edition. There weren't a ton of mistakes in there. Grey Knights made a ton of them and still only lost by like 25 points.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

I love how you like are chastising the Grey Knights. It's kind of like lore accurate.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Oh, and it's like to me that that was a huge takeaway. As I walked away, I'm like, oh man, like I played terrible as the Grey Knights. And I looked at the scoreboard, I'm like, huh, that wasn't that bad. Like, that's a pretty respectable score. And so I I think part of it is built into the structure, is it's and it probably exists out there in different matchups and different force position dispositions, and people will finally, you know, will find it eventually. But at least for right now, like I I have not had a game where one side felt just completely helpless, like the other person stuffed them into a locker and was just giving them noogies for three hours. Like that that has not been a part of my experience so far, which I think is awesome. And to your point, 10th edition towards the middle and end, and actually at the beginning, when some of the indexes were cracked, felt that way. Like you just showed up and was like, Oh great, the other person brought that. This is gonna stink for me for the next five hours.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah, I think it's so cool. I I I don't know, I am excited about this, and I th I just think that that's a really cool thing. I think that that's something that uh that I was frustrated with in 10th and even in ninth, right? Uh if we go back to 9th edition, right? I was frustrated with those same things, and and you know, I had plenty of those games where you show up and it's like after turn one, you're like, well, this is probably not gonna be a ton of fun for the next you know two and a half hours.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah, it I'm glad I showed up to be the scrub team to play against your Harlem Globetrotters. This is great for me.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Right. And I mean, look, I there's an aspect of that too where it's like, you know, okay, you can learn from that, and like you should experience hard things, and you know, um you know, you should you should challenge yourself. I'm all for it. All for it. But I think that that's that's uh that's really cool that you're starting to see you're starting to see the impact of that and like in two games. That's that's that's really exciting. I think so. The other thing I've noticed, oh god.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

No, no, go ahead.

Adaptability vs Predictability

SPEAKER_01 35:13

What else did you notice? I mean a lot of we could get into really nerdy technical things on the rules, but the other big observation is the I think there's a lot more room for player skill.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

And that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

I found that like there was a higher floor for all of the armies that I played. Of you can, you know, it's not paint by numbers, but there's enough leeway in the missions. If you just follow the cards and focus on playing the mission, you'll get to a baseline floor of points pretty well. But the ultimately what decided the winner, I would say in both games, it was the person who played the mission better and made less mistakes were the winners of both games, which isn't something I could say all the time in 10th edition.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. So you you think that this huh. So a lot of the stuff that I've seen around 11th was that they feel like that you know the meta is kind of already gonna be solved, and you know, uh purge is gonna be the force disposition that just wins all the time, and you're like, well, what I have seen is that you know player skill is gonna come into that a lot, and it doesn't necessarily mean if you maybe are playing the stronger force disposition in everybody's eyes. If you make a mistake and you do things wrong, it sounds like things are kind of set up to allow for the other players' skill to overcome your better force disposition. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah, I think so. And my my next game is gonna feature purge, so I'll have a better weigh-in on it then.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Watch you come back and be like, nah, never mind, Steve. You're totally wrong. That that is not what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

GW, you gotta fix this. I don't think so, because it here's what I think the the correction is, and I ran into this in the game with the Grey Knights. I think take and hold has the same limitation, it's predictable.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Oh if you draw if if you select force uh a force disposition of purge the foe, I know you're coming to kill me. Interesting. So now I can control the tempo of the game because the pressure is on you to come get me. And same thing with take and hold. I know what you're doing. The tempo of the game, I can now dictate it because you have to come out and get objectives.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah, so while they're comfortable playing that, you're also comfortable knowing what's coming from it. Yeah, it's good, it's a good perspective.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

No, they uh I wouldn't be surprised, and I've heard Art of War and Art of War Down Under saying this, where they'll say they wouldn't be surprised if three to six months from now everyone is saying that Purge the Foe was fool's gold. Not because it's not strong, but everyone latched onto it because it was familiar, and it became fools fool's gold because it also then became very predictable, because it does provide a very high floor, but it may not provide as high a ceiling as the other ones because uh the other ones are more dynamic and more unpredictable. And if you really commit to it, and I've seen this in both the games, I am 2-0 with reconnaissance right now. If you really commit to I'm gonna be super dynamic, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be able to react to whatever you throw at me, it makes it really hard to stop those armies from scoring. You know, they're they're gonna get theirs regardless of how hard you come after them.

unknown 39:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

So it's been very interesting. But my and again, this could all change. I've got a game with Purge coming up next. I'm working my way over to that, and I'll probably play my next two games with Purge as one of the forces positions, but it's I'm not sure because I I felt a lot of that predictability when I played the Grey Knights, and I I personally didn't like it because then you're completely reliant on, well, now I'm just back to the strength of my list. And I think that's a carryover from 10th edition and 9th edition that a lot of folks find very comfortable. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Okay, so in the game, let's I guess I got us a little off track there, but in the game, so was there was there an aspect of the game that you didn't like in the first game? Was there something that you were like, I don't know, this just this seems like it's something that maybe we're gonna have to look at in a couple more games or or see this played by a different army or something along those lines. Is there any of those types of reactions?

SPEAKER_01 40:32

So there is a change in both games that I didn't like, but it's probably for the better that it is this way, even though I didn't like it, which is the change to the ingress rule. I didn't like that my Grey Knights couldn't teleport around the board on bur on turn one or sorry in round one, and I didn't like that when I played the Hyper Crypt Legion for Necrons, they couldn't hyperphase around the board in round one when they went second. It's probably healthier for the game. I can see why it is a much more balanced thing to do. I didn't like it because I like to I like to play aggressively and play fast, and I like to get the game going fast. But I will acknowledge it it did make the game feel a lot more balanced, and it probably felt a lot better to be on the opponent's side when you didn't have a oh my god, there are 10 paladins in my face on turn one when I'm not ready. So that part I didn't love it, but I can acknowledge that's probably a personal preference thing, and there's some bias there.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

I was gonna say, you didn't love that because Eric's Eric's ability to get into your face on turn one and totally have you running around like a roach and the lights just came on kind of is limited because they changed the rule.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Well, it's not so it's limited for those two. I I think actually, if I'm zooming out, what I don't like is there is still an uneven access to that kind of get in your face fast ability that not all armies have access to. So they took it away. I shouldn't say they took it away. I hate it when people phrase it that oh, I had this and GW took it away from me. Grey Knights and Necrons no longer have access to it as a part of their teleporting rules. I played Emperor's Children in my second game against the um against the Necrons, and I can tell you there is no drug in this world like Fulgram moving 16 inches, followed by a six-inch advance, with take to the skies, so he can go through terrain for only a two-inch penalty into a ten-inch charge followed by a six-inch consolidation. That is a fulgrum goes from one side of the board to the extreme other side and is in your rear end at the end of your turn on turn one. But okay. So that there is still a ton of speed in the game, but not all armies have as much access to it. I think it is I can understand why that's a good thing. And I actually like that there are armies that can play tempo in different ways, because it's Grey Knights and Necrons are also super dynamic towards the the back end of the game. Um, but I I I guess I could wish that there was a little bit more access to like if you're gonna give Emperor's Children that kind of oh my goodness, speed on turn one, uh maybe don't take it. From others because I've heard that, like I've got to imagine Eldari have that version of speed. I'm gonna try my Harlequins at some point. I know they have that access to that kind of speed. CSM, I can get something that approximates it. I've heard Tao has something that approximates it, same with sisters. So there are versions of it. It's just I I think they've started to peel it away from some other factions and tried to give them different play patterns.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

So I don't want to get too much into the like what ifs here, but the interesting part is like I personally kind of feel like if you gave everybody that ability, right, it it would almost it would almost make the ones that kind of need that ability to go with the way that their their you know skills are mapped out and the way that their armies play, um, it would make them inert.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah. And and go go ahead. I I agree with you, and you're you're dancing around the point of I'm very close to doing the but Steve, this is a part of my faction's identity. And that can change.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

And that's I think it's I think it's really fun that I'm on this side of the fence and you're on that side of the fence. So I'm gonna play on it a little bit. So and here's here's why I'm saying that, right? So to me, right, and I have not played yet, and I don't know, but okay, so Fulgram can basically zoom from one side of the board to the other, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:41

In the one game I played, granted, we were going, we're playing the short way on the rectangular board. So you had a long deployment zone that was 22-ish inches the two deployment zones from each other. He went from touching the back side of one deployment zone to touching the back side of the other one in one turn.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

So, do you know what I want to do? I want to make it so that Fulgrum has a very tempting target that he wants to go to the other side of the board on. And I'm gonna think about that target a little bit. Of if I was my opponent, what would they want to what would they want to take off of the board? And then probably play uh uh choose a force disposition that is going to give me like if I knew I was playing EC or something like that, I probably would want to have something that gives me a little bit more jack of all trades capability. So that okay, if they're gonna take my big big thing off of the board or or that thing's gonna get tangled up, well then I want to have a lot of secondary actions and things like that. And also the way my brain thinks is now that the way that um you know objectives are that can kind of eliminate fulgrim from being able to dominate an objective. Yep. That's that's like that's great. Like that that means it's not a a binary interaction. Fulgrum moves, fulgrim deletes, right? It's not that.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

So you're describing a lot of what played out in the Necrons game, and I I think it's a great thing for the game. I also think it is gonna take an awful lot of adjusting to the new edition for folks. So, roundabouts, here's kind of what happened, which is turn one, Fulgram went entirely across the board, hunted a squad of Necron warriors into the sun, popped a stratagem to consolidate six inches, and then tagged a brick of immortals, which was one of the Death Stars that the Necrons wanted to have teleporting all around the board, blowing stuff up. So, right off the bat, as the Necron spoiler, I'm looking at it going, well, that's not good, because I came into this with five big things in my list that I wanted to use. I had the monolith, which I wanted to have teleport around the board, and then it was gonna pull things to it, and it had its big guns and it was gonna blow stuff up. I had the Katanshar, the Nightbringer, he was gonna be my distraction carn effects. I was gonna stick him on the center objective and then say to Emperor's Children, I don't think you have anything in here that kills this, and I dare Fulgrim to come and try, which Fulgrim didn't. And then I have my three Death Stars of Immortals that were meant to hyperphase or teleport all around the board or go in and out of the monolith and kill anything that the Emperor's Children tried to put on an objective. So turn one, Fulgrim is already in combat with one of those, and the Necrons don't have a way to get that squad out. So I'm like, crap. Okay, that's not good. Back half of turn one, Fulgrim kills that immortal squad in combat. So Necrons are down on that immortal squad. The next turn, he charges the next one and gets in on them, proceeds to kill them over the next two turns. So by the end of round two, like the Catan is out doing his job, the monolith is out and tied up in combat, and two of the immortal squads are down. So as the immortal player, I'm like, there goes, or as the necron player, I'm going, there goes my entire game plan. Like two-thirds of my ranged DPS are gone. But to your point, I still had all my action monkey units and everything else, and I had been chipping away at Fulgram the whole time. Eventually he went down, and then basically what I did is okay, well, now that we're out of round one, I have access to hyperphasing, I can just pick up all my action monkey units that had turtled up around my home objective to hide from the EC charge, put them in reserves, and the Emperor's Children pushed everything forward, so their backfield is wide open. I'll just start dropping things in their backfield and reigning robots in their backfield. Yeah. And then I just I made the Empress Children play tag for the rest of the game, and the Necrons kited the Emperor's Children by teleporting all around the board doing actions and dropping on objectives just long enough to score points, and that's what won them the game.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

That's where I think like so just looking at it, right? I think I think armies like EC, I think armies like um you know world eaters and stuff like that, where it was it really was just kind of uh this binary way to play. Like there's gonna be a learning curve, I think, with 11th, because you're gonna have to figure out how to kind of I don't know, throttle the pedal sometimes to make sure that you don't like overcook it, right? And I think that you're gonna be dancing on that line of of do you know how aggressive versus how subdued you're gonna play, because exactly what you just said, like okay, come at me, I'll just go around you, and now I can. And I'm not you're not gonna like it's almost like a game, like if if that's the game you're gonna play, then you're you're just gonna play try and and trap me. And and that's fine. Maybe that's that is what you're trying to do, and maybe that's you know the way that you want to play. Um, but it it's just it just creates such a much more like rich uh dynamic on the board that it doesn't feel like the match is gonna be decided by turn two, just simply based off of you picked this army and we're playing this mission and this board layout. It just doesn't, to me, in reading it and hearing your experiences, it doesn't feel like that's the case anymore.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

I mean, I have two other observations on top of that, one of which supports your point entirely, and actually supports something that I think you've been kind of wishing for, which is uh you want to know a really interesting data point, especially for the EC versus Necrons game. Uh so you you've read enough of my battle reports. I I do a pre-game write-up, and one of the things I do is I build a table where I'll list out here are the key combos that I I think will be interesting to try and use this game. The Emperor's Children used every single one of those combinations, and the Necrons used none of theirs, and the Necrons still won. Wow. And so I I I think the you know, yes to everything you're saying about you don't just get to list in Math Hammer and then you show up and you've won the game before it started, but I think there's also an aspect there of some of what will take getting used to from both sides, but I actually think it would be harder in this particular case, looking at like the Necron players game, of well, I designed my list to use all those immortals, and I designed my list to use the monolith, and the monolith died in round three, and I never got to pull anything through it using the eternity gate data sheet ability, and my immortals never got to activate their rerolls to wound against a target that was on an objective, and I never got to do this other cool stratagem that I had in my back pocket because I was too busy just like chucking explosives and re-rolling Catan hit rolls. So that there's an aspect there of I think in some ways it's gonna create these moments where it's like, well, do you what's more important to you? Having your list do all the flashy things that you designed it to do or winning the game?

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Because I think that that's part of that decision making that GW is trying to drive into the game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

And it I think it was awesome. I also will tell you, as someone who was playing both sides of the table, and I actually wrote this up like as I was doing my mid-round commentary. I think by the end of round three, I was like, Man, this isn't looking good for the Necrons. Like, I think EC is gonna romp with this game. And as I was playing the game, the whole time I'm like, oh, this is going terribly for the Necrons. This is this isn't fun at all. This is awful. And then the Necrons ended up winning. And they almost maximized their total points.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

I mean, Eric, it sounds like so far you're really kind of enjoying this. And I I don't know, I get a big kick out of the like learning aspect of the new edition, so it's really fun to listen to. I I appreciate you coming on and kind of sharing your thoughts about about you know, so far what the new edition is. I think once I get a couple games under my belt, it'd be really cool if like you kind of flip the table back on me and then we talk about it from that from my perspective. Uh, because I think you know, it'll just be fun to kind of capture this from different people's perspective. And and honestly, if you all are out there and and you've started playing some games in 11th, you know, let us know too. Like, you know, have you know, do you have the same feelings? Do you have the same kind of thoughts on on what you're seeing and and and how it's going for you? It'd be be pretty cool to just, you know, kind of have the community involved in kind of learning this stuff together and and being a part of that. I think it'd be really awesome.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Yeah, absolutely.

Rapid Fire Rules Notes

SPEAKER_01 55:56

So it we got about five, ten minutes left. You okay if I go rapid fire through the last five or six notes I have?

SPEAKER_02 56:03

Sure. I know that if we don't complete the notes that you have on your list, your spreadsheet won't be complete. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

No, it it won't, and I'm I'm checking them off as we go.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

You know what the best part is, I have no idea what you have on that list, so I'm glad to hear we checked some of it off already.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

So, first one is I love the new charge rules. Absolutely love them. And and what I mean by that is now it's more like AOS where it's you say, This unit is declaring a charge. I will roll the charge. Oh, let me look at the dice. Now I can go pick what I'm gonna charge at. I have had to recalibrate how I measure it out because you no longer like just have to get into an engagement range. It's you now have to go base to base and you round. Uh I forget if it's up or down, but like if it's 8.1, that's a nine-inch charge. If it's 7.9, that's an eight-inch charge. So you round up on everything. I love the declare charge, roll it, and then see what you can go hit. Because now there's no downside to like I find myself and like, what's that? I'm 11.5 away, whatever, I'm declaring a charge. Let's see what happens. And it creates these really cool, almost like explosion moments where you're like, Oh, I hit it. I can go like I was going, I was originally thinking I'd roll a three and go tag this little screening unit, but I just rolled a 12. I'll go hit this big thing instead. It creates another level of this like excitement in the game, which I find really, really fun. Granted, I love the charge and melee phase, so that's part of it, but I I like that they added that in.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Well, I think so, like you don't play as much um, you know, outside of the 40k world, but I think that there's aspects of AOS that I think had some of these these characteristics in it. Um, and I agree. I think I think it it very it it makes it much more exciting. Um it also doesn't make you want to punt your gray night gray knights through the wall when they don't make their charge, or your champion doesn't have to sit in timeout because potentially he could still make a charge, you know, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

I mean they there are still those. I had a wing demon prince fail a three-inch charge the other day, so those still exist. He got his wings clipped. Yeah, I don't know, man. Like they they got all tangled up and he tripped or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Yeah, I use a demon prince. The problem was he forgot to call the butler to help him, you know, make it there, you know. I guess.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

So that first one was charge rules. I absolutely love the changes. Second one, and this one might be a bit of a hot take, and it's probably very specific to my play style. Hidden didn't matter at all. Uh because if I wanted to get if I wanted to shoot you, there was gonna be a way I could get within 15 inches of you. But I think it will matter for certain types of players. Like, you won't be able to, and it's a combination of hidden and the way that the train is laid out if you're playing using the event companion that GW put on their website. There is no longer this, like, I can put a doomsday arc right here in my deployment zone, and I can see 72 inches across the board and shoot anything that comes into my field of view. That's just no longer a thing. The sight lines are a lot shorter, and granted, I've played a ton of infantry so far. I have other than the monolith, the Catan, and Fulgram, I haven't played a bunch of monsters or vehicles. But there hasn't been a whole lot of like, oh man, I really want to shoot that thing, but it's hidden. There hasn't been a lot of that because more often than not, I find that the missions are pushing you to move forward and engage, and they're not rewarding you for camping out in your deployment zone. So that it comes with the caveat of I don't think that will be popular for everyone. I know there's a large subset of the Tau community that is very upset about that change, but I found I like that change, and that hidden didn't matter as much as everyone thinks it would.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

Yeah. That is kind of interesting. It'll be interesting to see it'll be interesting to see when we have armies on the table that kind of want to take advantage of that rule. Um, I don't really quite know yet what that is. I mean, in my head, I think Eldar, right? But I don't know. I haven't seen them yet. I don't I don't really know how their detachments work and how they work with their missions either. So that could all change what I'm saying, and I could be just, you know, kind of talking out my rear end right now. But it'll be interesting to see how how that rule changes because I don't feel like I I don't know. I don't feel like any of the armies that you were playing are really ones that want to take advantage of that rule.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Yeah, well, and I I think part of it is I don't know so much that it will impact specific armies as it will impact specific players and how they approach the game. Not even units. I think it's the person piloting the army. And I think in some ways, part of why this is not fully resonating with you is you went through this last edition when they clipped the range of the Hecaton Landfort, and you're like, what the heck? I can't just like I can't keep it in my deployment zone and just blast away with my rail gun. I have to move it up because I only got the short 24-inch range. And I think there's just gonna be a lot of people who are going through a version of that that you went through last edition with the Hecaton.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

Yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

That's interesting, man. So it but so far, hidden hasn't been that big a deal, which leads to the third thing I have here, which is, and this one will definitely require some adjustment and some recalibrating of how people feel playing the game. 11th edition is super lethal. Like, yeah, if you can be activated into you gonna die.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

Yeah, I actually was reading a little bit of an uh you know, like a synopsis on it. Um, and like they kind of came up with that same kind of opinion of like, if uh if you wind up on the wrong end of that dark alley, like good luck. I hope you have a way to get out, which which is interesting because I think it's gonna force you to like really tip that economy scale with your CP of it's really gonna drive you into okay, do I have to get tricky to get out of this situation? And what's it gonna cost me on the other end of that? Right, and I think you're gonna constantly be playing that game.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

Or what I actually found, and it's a variant of what you just described, is I think you'll start to see a new type of economy forming, which I'm gonna call activation economy. Okay, and this is one place where hidden does matter, which is part of why the game wants I said earlier that the games go super fast. I wasn't activating my entire entire army every turn. Interesting. I was activating 50 to 65% of my army in any given turn, because there were other units where it was like, nah, I I I think that person is or that unit is okay where they are. And if I move them up, like, yeah, maybe I can get some pistol shots if I into this thing and clip one unit, but then I'm exposing that unit and they're gonna get blasted off the board next turn.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:09

And so what I found is part of how I controlled for how lethal the game was is you tempo out how many units you expose to do things, and as a result, you're not activating your entire army, you're activating subsets of it, and I I found that the one that was probably least evident was with the Empress Children, because they just pushed forward in a giant wave. But even then, I wasn't activating every unit every turn, and so I think there'll be an adjustment there. Like if you're the kind of player who's like, I need to go through every unit every turn, and they need to do their thing every turn, that's where there might be a bad time getting set up because then you won't get hidden on those, and you might be exposing units for not a great return, and you're gonna get cracked back hard. I think what you'll start to see is like an activation economy forming of hey, is it really worth me activating and exposing this unit to go kill like a model in my opponent's army? Or am I better off keeping them back where they're safe and where they're hidden so that I can use them next turn? Because the action that they really want to do hasn't come out of the deck yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

Well, I mean, it sounds like for two games you're getting a lot out of this. Like it's I mean, you're giving me a lot to think about. It's it's gonna be fun. I know I have a couple of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

I have one last one, and you're gonna hate, and then you can go into wrap up. No, go for it. There are more and then's than ever. The limitation on stacking stratagems in the single phase. I have not found that came up yet, and I still had a bunch of opportunities. Opportunities to do a this unit will do this and then this and then this and then this and then this. Because you can just if you're doing two DP with a one DP, you can do an enhancement with two different data sheet abilities with a detachment rule, with another detachment rule. Like it there's just there's just as much opportunity for multiple and then moments. And it's more so than you would think given that given the moaning that was going on when they announced you can't stack stratagems anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

So but with that being said, the and thens might be more transparent to your opponent. Maybe not off the jump like the first time they're seeing something, but I would imagine that as things start to shake out, we start to see metas evolving and things like that, the and then's are probably gonna be a little bit more transparent, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

And even if they aren't, I don't think they are as game-defining. They still may be big and splashy and uh potentially feel bad, you know, feels bad, but I'll give you a perfect example from the Emperor's Children game. I did a multi-and-then stack up of a Lord Exultant with five infractors, charging into the monolith, and then fighting with access to two detachment rules, sustained and lethal, and re-rolls of of the wound roll, and extra AP because of one of the army rules, the sustained came from the other one, the lethal came from the lord, then the lord had a go mode, so he got to add a bunch of attacks and more AP, and six dudes punched out a monolith, and the Necron still won the game. And it wasn't especially in doubt in turns four and five.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:22

Don't don't get over involved because you just don't know you just don't know the relationship yet. Let it unfold. Like I just feel like that's that's how it's gonna have to be for the first, you know, little while, right? Um, and then there'll be more feelings when the data slates come out. But yeah, I just feel like there's an aspect of this, it's like, you know, what did my mom say when I was a kid? Hold your horses or something like that. I don't know. Like I I think that's gonna be a big takeaway for me personally, the way that I play. Like, don't let your emotional side take over yet. You don't know. You you don't know. Wait and see, because uh if I can take any advice away from the two games that you've played, it's hey, the things that used to feel like this would cause you to lose your your game or this would cause cause you to you know be in a really no-win situation. It's just that's not the same anymore. So till you learn it, till you feel it, till you go through it, don't don't hold a judgment. Ha, that's pretty funny. A photon player saying don't judge something.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

Get comfortable with being uncomfortable, because what I'm finding is the units that often win you the game aren't the ones that you think it's gonna be during list building.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

That's cool. Huh?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:56

Okay. So is that all of the things on your list? Again, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

That's the entire list. That's the entire list. Do you feel better?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:05

Did you get through it all?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

I do feel better, yes.

Wrap Up and Final Thoughts

SPEAKER_02 1:10:10

Oh, that's good. So do you have games coming up, you know, this this week? Are you playing anything this week?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

I have one more game this week. I'm gonna play Chaos Space Marines against Chaos Knights, and then I go on vacation for a little bit. And it's my turn. Yep. So we'll we won't have an episode next week. We're off for about a week and a half. We'll have one when we come back, and then uh yeah, it I'm staggering out how I'm publishing the battle reports though. So I am I'm gonna schedule them to be published while I'm away, but I'm playing all the games and writing them all up now. Awesome. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:48

Well, thanks, man. Thanks for like you know sharing your experience on this and being kind of open about it. It's it's kind of interesting to hear, you know, your perspective and and how things are going right now. Um I'm it it honestly pumps me up to play even more. Um, I'm really excited to play. And honestly, I'm really excited to play Votan in 11th. I I I don't know why specifically that army for me. I I I just think that I'm very excited about the little guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

I'll leave that on that one alone. But it I I think the list you were working on when we spoke last week, I think it'll play well. I think there's there's a lot there. I think you could also experiment with a bike heavy version of Need Guard combined with I forget the one DP detachment that's like the the go out and far seek things, the far seekers. That one looks pretty good. And from my experience, again, could play really well because of all the uppy-downy that the bikes have, so give you access to keep doing things even if you get you know rushed. So I don't know. I I'm having a ton of fun with 11th edition. I really like where the game is going, and I love the wrinkle of forced dispositions. I also will freely admit that it's I can also see why a lot of people are upset and why it's not everyone's cup of tea, because it's not a one-player game anymore. You it the there is not a seamless transition from list hammer to math hammer to war hammer, and I think that is really cool. I can also understand why that is very frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:34

Well, I think time will tell. More games under our belt will be the key, I think, for everybody. And I I I don't know. I'm pretty hopeful right now that that this is gonna this is gonna be a really good thing and that that we're gonna come out of this really enjoying this edition. So we're gonna be in it for a little while, so we're we'll find something that we love about it. But sounds like right now things are all roses. So let's uh let's see. I don't know. I get my chance to play now, so next time we come back, I'll I'll have maybe uh my reaction and and we can go from there.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:13

Yeah, next time I'll interview you and you can walk me through your experience because you guys are gonna be getting together for a little barn hammer while I'm on vacation. So we can't we can get Steve's counterpoint.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

We'll see how that goes. I have a feeling it's gonna align quite heavily, but we will see. Come on, it could be you show up and you're just like, I hated it, it was awful. I don't think there's anything that I've ever showed up that I was like, I hated it, it's awful. That's just not who I am. Bring back ninth edition. Make hackathons great again. Yeah, exactly. Oh man. All right, well, we're getting punchy. Thanks again, Eric. Appreciate it, and and look forward to reading your battle reports. And um, you know, thanks everybody. Hopefully, like I said, tell us your your thoughts. What are your experiences? Hopefully, you all are getting out there and you're starting to feel things out and play some some matches and uh you know, share it with us, let us know. But uh, other than that, look forward to getting some playtime and and talking to everybody in the upcoming weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

Sounds great. Take care, everyone. Have a great night.