43 - Are You Not Entertained?

Erik and Steve were supposed to sneak out for a game at the Local Game Store (LGS) this week and instead got stuck at home, so naturally they spent forty-five minutes turning that disappointment into a full breakdown of why playing 40K at the LGS hits different than Barnhammer, Officehammer, or TTS ever will. Somewhere in there it also becomes a card game vs. tabletop philosophy seminar, and Erik accidentally reveals that he has no interest in running clubs and only exercises to "not be fat".

Along the way they cover:

• The LGS effect — why playing on neutral ground in front of an audience of strangers and excited store owners adds something Barnhammer and TTS just can't replicate
• Cards vs. minis — Erik's hot take that he thinks trading card games are more one-dimensional than 40K and why it hits a nerve with Steve harder than either of them expected
• The "I don't want to be fat" tangent — an endurance-sports rabbit hole that somehow explains why community matters more than either of them wants to admit
• Deck stacking, but make it transparent — how WTC's first defender/attacker pairing system turns the thing that would ruin a casual LGS game into the actual point of the tournament, while someone still also being open and transparent
• WTC list geek out — a Squighog Boyz Waaagh built entirely to run people over, a Slaanesh Daemons alpha strike, and a Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard charge out of a Land Raider that neither of them saw coming
• The next LGS attempt — Erik and Steve pencil in a rematch and its definitely not just an excuse to buy more models

Whether you're here for the "are you not entertained" energy of playing at your local shop or just want to hear two grown men overanalyze why cardboard hits different than plastic, this one's for you.

📖 Read Erik's battle reports at gmpwt.blog
📺 Watch on YouTube at @GrownMenPlayingWithToys

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I do all this stuff by myself because I just want to get it over with because I don't actually enjoy it. I just like the feeling afterwards, and I like the fact that I could do it and not be fat.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

We say hold our dice. We're your hosts, Eric and Steve. Eric, we're back. What uh what have you been up to?

SPEAKER_00 0:56

I mean, it's WTC season, so I've been geeking out about all of the lists. I also I moved most of my house Warhammer setup up to my home office because I had a futon in there that finally gave out, and I replaced it with a Warhammer table. And so I've got my wood shop back, and I figured out additional storage, which means I may be acquiring more models in the near future, and I'm in the middle of another game, but that's you know, kind of normal, got a lot going on in this for me. What about you?

SPEAKER_03 1:40

In terms of Warhammer, I don't know. I we kind of had plans to do something which I thought was gonna be really cool, and they uh the plans kind of fell through together. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

I had my whole thing set up for us with wives that like spending time with us, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

You know, yeah. So just spoil alert. Eric and I were planning to try and maybe cut out on a Friday and go to the LGS and um, you know, get uh an awesome game going. Um and so it's it's kind of cool though. So

Why the LGS Hits Differently

SPEAKER_03 2:16

all right, so I know you want to get to the WTC. I know you do, but I have this thought that I kind of since we've talked about not being able to go tomorrow, kind of wanted to talk about it here because I think it's a part of that of of like the community that we we don't talk about enough. Like we we mention local game stores and things like that. Um, but there's an aspect where we were both like super excited to go play it in the in the store, right? Um we both we both have areas you just talked about. I mean, you you moved your Warhammer game table into your office so you can play office hammer. Um but there's an aspect of playing at the local game store that is it's just so cool, and it's so much fun that you know I'm super bummed out that we're not gonna be able to pull it off tomorrow, and I I can't wait until we get a chance to do it. But I was sitting here and I'm gone, what is it about the LGS that makes it so much fun? That that really adds a little something else, a little spice to the game. Um, because I think it does.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, it's a good question. I'll if I'm being super honest with myself, I think it took me a while to get to the realization of the question you just asked. Because at first my disappointment was uh, well, I was really looking forward to playing Warhammer with Steve. Yeah. And you kind of kept needling me a little bit because I kept no, no, like that's the disappointment. I'll play Warhammer wherever. We can go set up a piece of plywood on the driveway, and it'll be just as much fun. And you kind of kept, uh, you sure about that? And and eventually, like, yeah, you're right. That there's there is something there, and it's I think the part we talked in the past about me playing in a crus Crusade League at my LGS. That's one of the things that I enjoyed the most about it is the the being there and participating in the league and it being different than a pickup game that I'm playing in you know my shop at the time, now in my office, in your barn. So I I don't know. I I'm still working my way through it. So why why don't you take the lead on kind of why you think that is, and hopefully that can help me process it a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

So I I mean I think we talk a lot on this this podcast about like the immersion of the game, and I think there's something to it being on a table on neutral ground, um, you know, in a place uh that is just you know different than your normal space. So uh, you know, those are all the kind of the obvious things. But I think there's something else to it, and the something else that I find is kind of exciting is kind of like the vulnerability of the game being exposed to a broader audience than just you and your opponent. You know, uh our local game store is a small LGS, right? Um, you know, and the owner is is very, very interested in any games that are being played inside of his store. But at the same time, the whole time you have patrons of the store coming in and they're they're looking at what you're doing, and they're listening to what you're doing while they're selecting their stuff and walking around, and there's this element of kind of putting putting your skills and and putting what you do on display a little bit, and and kind of you know showing and sharing the joy of the hobby with others in the store. Um, I get a big kick out of, you know, the last time we played in LGS, there was a guy who was sitting in the corner and he was he was like thumbing through some like Magic the Gathering cards, or I I don't know if he bought like a booster or packs or whatever he was doing. He was like maybe opening them or something. But he was listening to our conversation and we had like a joke or something, and he like chimed in out of nowhere, and it's like, hey, you've been paying attention and listening to the things that we're doing, and that's it's kind of cool. Like, you kind of feel like you're a part of a bigger like organism when you're in in the LGS playing on the table.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

I still remember his joke because I thought it was hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

You and I were his joke.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

We were talking about something with regards to members of the community being buttheads, and he goes, Yeah, it wouldn't be a hobby without gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Yeah, okay, yeah, I do remember you're right. Which is kind of funny that he was opening magic cards and saying that.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

I I that's what I thought was so funny. It was like, all right, game recognized game. He knows what we're talking about, and he's on he's owning it.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Yeah, I I don't I don't know. I think there's uh I'm trying to skirt around the idea of like, oh Steve's voyeur. You know, he likes to do this in front of others, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Um let me try and rescue you from that thing because you've got me thinking, and I'm yeah, I'm gonna think out loud a little bit. So it I do think there's a fundamental difference because I I'm like you of there's an excitement that I feel when I play in the LGS. And I think it's you know a couple fold. One, it's the you're getting out of your comfort zone a little bit. Yeah, for sure. I think you know, and like you said, there's the like people are walking in and out of the store, especially when we play in the LGS that's close to where I live. Like the times when you and I have gone and played in the past, it's it's not like peak hours Saturday afternoon. And like you said, the owner gets genuinely excited. And so he's always like, Oh, let me clear off the the prime time table in the middle of the store, and you guys can play here. Yeah, yeah. And he gets involved in the game, and he gets involved in the game in like a fun way. Like he he asked if he could roll a deadly demise for us, and then we were like, Okay, so you're rolling that for the rest of the game. Every time there's an explosion, you have to roll it. And like he'd be off doing stuff, and we'd be like, Hey, something's ready to explode, and like he would come running over.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Like do an inventory in the back, and I'm like, Hey, something's gonna blow up, and next thing you know, he's like sprinting to the front of the store, like, I'm gonna roll it. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

So I I think that's super cool. And if I do a a compare and contrast to like when we've played in my shop, when we play Barnhammer, other pickup games that I participated in that aren't in an LGS, like and this is no shade to any of those other venues, but the I think it's a different level of uh audience participation, if you will. Because the audience participation in all of those other forums is like, well, I need to come over and referee and make sure that you're following the rules correctly. Or I'm gonna be the peanut gallery and I'm gonna chirp up when one of you doesn't make the right move and say you should have done this other thing instead. Whereas the LGS, I think because it there's there's more strangers and they don't feel comfortable doing that level of chirping in like your friends would, right? That you get more of the just like, yeah, cool, you're doing the thing.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

And yeah, I think that's contagious too, because like I like when we play there, like I I feel like the excitement level jumps up a little bit. Um you know, it is contagious, like they're excited, you're excited. There people, you know, look at the things that you've put on the table. Like, like this is a place where painting becomes a big deal, right? I think you know, the last time we played, like we both had people, people that aren't even into 40k, right? That were like, whoa, they look awesome, or like, dang, look at all that stuff on the table. That's really cool. What are they doing? Right. And um, you know, I don't know. I think there's like adrenaline that comes with it that's just different. It's just, you know, a different experience playing at the LGS. And and when, you know, when you and I were talking about it earlier in the week of like, hey, you know, the the the stars might align here, we might be able to go down to the game store and play. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I can't wait to bring my stuff. What am I gonna bring? And I'm sitting here, I'm like, what's the newest thing that maybe nobody's seen yet? Or oh wait, hold on, let me paint something up real quick. And it kind of like it sparks that fire. And I mean, I get it that like when we have a Barnhammer event or we have people, you know, around that, you know, we we want to do pickup games and stuff like that. I think that the the environment there sparks you know excitement too. It's just different when like there's potentially strangers involved and like people that aren't necessarily part of your normal day-to-day.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

I mean it I found I was thinking about the game differently because as I was and I overplan for everything. So as I was thinking about it and trying to figure out, okay, what of the way too many armies that I play would I bring, there was a different feel to it where it wasn't like uh okay, what's good right now? What can I bring that's gonna show well and it's gonna give me a good chance to win? And it was more of the okay, what's gonna look really cool when I'm playing it at the LGS? That when people walk by, they're gonna go, oh dang, that's cool. Yeah, like I mean look at that model and like, oh, that's your list, that's a really cool list.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

As we were putting the lists together to play, we talked about like an element of that game was that the last game we played, uh, was that you know, well, what would look cool? What do we want to see on the board the most? And I think the reason why we had that category is because of this, exactly this, like it helps bring your A game, I think. I I I don't know, playing at playing at like a venue like that, you know, helps to bring your your your element up a level, I guess. And you know, I uh everybody who's listened to this for a while now knows that we don't have a ton of tournament experience, but I I would probably venture to think that you know this is kind of the same thrill that a lot of people get out of bringing you know their latest and greatest and the stuff that they work really hard on to a tournament like that. I mean, I've played in many card tournaments. In that case, you're trying to bring a deck that's you know the most blinged out or whatever, or meme out so that you know you're doing something that you know is different than everybody else. But I think what 40k does is allows you to have a lot of expression in what it is that you care about with the hobby, and I you know, having a chance to put that on display, I think it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Yeah, I I'm with you. And that so there's a rabbit hole we can go down, and I'll give you the choice on whether we want to go there or not, which is that that the difference between playing a card game in an LGS and playing 40k in an LGS, and I have strong opinions on how that can take you different routes and what you showcase depending on which approach you're taking. But I'm with you of the I don't know, and I I try and make an effort when I'm in my LGS to if I see that folks are playing a game, I'll walk over and be like, oh dang, man, like you're playing ad mech? That's sick. I've never seen admec before. Like, that's awesome that you painted that model that way. Because I do think that's important, and I I think it's really cool when you and I get a chance to play in the LGS, and folks do that. Like, I I had a there's at one point, and this was probably this time last year, where you know the the LGS owner was chatting with me after a game I played, and I just played a pickup game against someone I had met in the LGS. We met on the Discord, we agreed to meet in the store and play a game, and he's like, dude, I love having you in the LGS. Every time you play against someone, they end up buying a model afterwards. I was like, I don't know if I should take that a good way or a bad way, but that's funny. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

I think that's a great thing. I uh do you think that they're buying a model because it's something that you played with that they want to buy, or is it something that you think that you gave them the option to think about their army in a different way and they need a supplement for it?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

I like to think that it's the latter because one of the things I enjoy the most is you know, playing a game with my opponent and trying to understand why they built the list the way they did and what they're trying to do with their army, and then sharing what I'm trying to do with mine. And you know, I I love when we can do the post-game chat of like, you know, hey, what did you think? Was this fun? How did your army feel? And and I love when I can ask my opponent, hey, how did it feel to play against my army? Like, is there anything that you think I could have done better from a list or a gameplay perspective? Um I I always appreciate it when they ask the same back, and so I I like to think that some of it, because truth be told, most of the time when I finish the game, I also walk over and buy a model, and I think it's an output of those kind of post-game discussions.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Do you think that there's an aspect of us loving to play in LGS is because we know we're also gonna come home with a new model?

SPEAKER_00 16:48

I mean maybe. And so so so hold on. I I think the bold assumption that you ended that one as a singular model.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

That's funny.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

Uh I think the other aspect is playing in an LGS kind of like uh enables the habit. Right? So it's kind of like one of those things where like, oh man, I just did this. Dang, you know, this list could really use more of XYZ. Hey, do you got that? Oh yeah, I got three of them over here. Oh, cool. Put one aside for me. Like, I don't know. That's like like the easiest way for me to go spend a couple hundred bucks, I think, is playing in the local game store.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah, and I I think that's

You're With Your People

SPEAKER_00 17:38

part of it. I I think part of it is just, and you I tease you all the time about this, and yet it has grown on me over the years, and you called me out on it when I said I was moving my Warhammer stuff up to my office, which is the joke that I always tease you, because I've seen your your office from when you work from home, and it's got shenanigans all over the walls, and I'm like, oh, you just love to be surrounded by all your favorite stuff. Oh yeah. And and you hit me up earlier this week of oh, you're you're you're moving your war Warhammer stuff up to the office, and I see that you've got like some Ghostbusters Legos and some Avengers Legos and a DeLorean from Back to the Future and some Star Wars Lego sets. Uh I guess I guess I'm the only one who likes to be surrounded by all their favorite stuff. Like it's definitely not you as well.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

I mean, yeah, my office is full of all the things that kind of make me who I am, right? And and mine is as well now, and I and it's a big part of it. And so playing at a game store, you're in an environment immersed in all the things that you love, right? And and the people that come into the store, they they they have the same so all right. When I play at home, right, or the Bornhammer event, I have plenty of friends who could care less about 40k. Matter of fact, I have plenty of friends who make fun of me for playing 40k. You all do. Everyone of you listening does it. There are plenty of what I call lesser-minded people out there that make fun of us for playing this game and this hobby.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

It's how we named the podcast. It came from, in my case, members of my family who were making fun of me for being saying, You're a grown man, why do you play with toys?

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Yep. And so when you go to an LGS or to a tournament, or you're with your people, you're with people that appreciate the things the same way that you do, for the most part, right? Or you're there with somebody who's curious about the game or about the community or the environment or just generally what goes on inside of a local game store, and it's a chance for you to share those things with them unimpeded, right? By other social formats that maybe outside of that environment are going to want to, you know, lean towards making fun of something that they don't understand. And and I I don't know. To me, it's just it's a it's a place where we can go and get excited about this hobby and it gets perpetuated, not you know, like shunned or like you know, looked down upon, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Yeah, it's I think there's an analogy

Endurance Sports Analogy

SPEAKER_00 20:44

there. We both have a friend who is really into endurance sports, and I like I like to tease him because you know you are more into endurance sports than I am, but you and I both exercise pretty regularly. You know, I swim, I run, you run, you bike, we both lift weights. And this friend who does endurance sports, like you know, every time I talk to them, they're like, Oh, you you gotta join a team and you gotta be a part of a club and you gotta do this. Like, I do all this stuff by myself because I just want to get it over with because I don't actually enjoy it. I just like the feeling afterwards, and I like the fact that I can do it and not be fat. And whereas I think what they're approaching with the mindset of, and it's part of what we're talking about, is they enjoy the activity of the endurance sport, and they want to be surrounded by other people who enjoy the activity that is that same thing they're doing, and they want to like feel this we're all in it together, we're all doing the thing we love because it becomes contagious.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Uh can you please make that the hot mic cold open? I do all this because I don't want to be.

unknown 22:00

Fat.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, I think it's probably gonna be the cold open. Like, I am the opposite of that when it comes to exercise. I want to be alone by myself, wearing headphones. That Apple is yelling at me. I'm playing way too music that is way too loud on, and it's not safe for my hearing because I'm just trying to drown out the misery that is me doing my current activity so I can get it over with. And the whole time I'm just sitting there going, This sucks, but I won't be fat.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

I mean, we we harp on the fact that community is important playing this game, that you know, um being you know good opponents to you know the person across the table from you. We harp on emphasizing kind of the values that you can get while playing this game. And I just think that that playing in a local game store kind of brings a lot of that to the light and allows allows that to kind of really be the thing you lean on and and it just enhances the game for me. I I just you know being a part of the community while playing this, I think is just it's just so cool. And I highly recommend it to anybody out there. If you are thinking about or wanting to play a game at your local game store, I guarantee you if you go in there or get onto their Discord or talk to the to the uh owner of the store, I guarantee you that there will be excitement immediately around, oh yeah, let's get you in let's get you in a game or hey they play on Friday nights. You should come you should show up and and I'm sure we could get you a board going. Like I guarantee you that that is going to be the response. And and if you're out there thinking about trying it, I I I think you're gonna really enjoy it. I I know I do. I know I'm a little bummed out that Eric and I aren't gonna be able to play again uh this week in in the LGS. And and I just thought it was something, it just struck me as like I'm sitting here, I'm going, all right, but I can go play Barnhammer, you know, in my barn, right? And and I could do that, or we could get on to, you know, whatever, table tabletop simulator if we needed to get our fix, right? But it's not the same, and I was like, man, I kind of want to talk about that tonight.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

I mean, you just took the words right out of my mouth of I was gonna jump in and say, I think this is a part of why I don't like TTS.

unknown 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

It's not that I don't like TTS. I will say, like, I just I find myself tediously doing things in TTS rather than doing things because it's exciting and it's a game and it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

I don't like TTS. I'm just flat out, no shade on people, no judgment on people who do like it. It doesn't scratch the itch for me. For a long time, I told myself it's well, I just like to get up and I like to get exercise while I'm doing it. I like the tangible, I'm moving the models. I like the social aspect of the person that I'm playing against. I can see them. But I also think there's an aspect, like you're saying, of the social community side, being in the LGS, being in the league, or being at my friend's house, or having my friend at my house. I like that. And I say this as someone who is deeply introverted, so it's kind of uncomfortable to admit that I like that squishy stuff.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Well, welcome to the dark side, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

So will you humor me a little bit on the rat hole that I brought up earlier? Because I think it actually leads into the WTC thing. Yeah, we can keep going on this one, and but I'd like to go a little bit into the the difference between playing card games and playing 40k, because I think there's also an explanation there as to why we enjoy playing 40k in the LGS so much.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

So and and honestly, this is just gonna be my experience. I know that there's many people out there that that that have lots of experience playing um trading card games inside of LGS, um, as well as 40k, and and they're both great. Um, I love them both. They are, in my opinion, or my experience, different. Um when it comes to when it when it comes to like card gaming, I think the the the edge is always um more apparent. Like, and what I mean by that is the always wanting to get an edge on the meta, your opponent, the tournament, whatever it is, the game, it's it's more apparent, right? So I think that deck stacking um is more kind of available, it's prevalent. Um, I think sometimes it also becomes a little bit easier to do it because you know, really there's only an aspect of a monetary paywall that's stopping you from being meta. Um, you know, there's a lot of patterns that go along with card games, and if you can get the right cards, have them in your right deck, know how to play the right pattern, you can play meta. And I I know that some people will say, well, that's the same as 40k, but it's it's not because it's kind of like in my opinion, it's like checkers versus chess. It's it's very similar games, very similar environments, very similar style of board in a way. Um, but it's different, right? You have different aspects, different levels, different combinations that you have to think of. Um, and I think that that's that's the if I had to put like my primary difference between the two, um, that would be my primary difference. Is that just the card games can be pretty flat. And in games I've played in the past, I've played Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh! uh I played Dragon Ball Z back when Panini was doing it. I was very competitive in Dragon Ball Z, actually, back when Panini was putting that together. I've played One Piece, I played Magic. Um I've put my time in on those games, and and a lot of what I I found was, you know, once the secret sauce is kind of kind of discovered, everybody clamors to get that deck or that setup, or they clamor to disprove that deck or that setup. And that's kind of what happens on, you know, kind of the the iteration of a cycle um of a card game from from my perspective. With 40k, you still have a meta, you still have things that are doing really well in tournaments, but that meta ebbs and flows and breaks down, and there's a lot of diversity that's that's associated with the way that um armies get put together. There's a lot of identity that goes into armies, and things like combinations and and explorations can come from a lot of different factors. Um, you know, the card games, they're written, they're static, they are the way that they are, right? Now you could say that the rules for 40k and you know the miniatures or um, you know, the detachment or whatever are static, but the way that you use them on the table is dynamic, and that's the that's the fundamental thing that I think really separates the two in my mind, is that you could be playing a medalist and you could really lose.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Yeah, so it let me echo some of that back to you as and in background, like you said, you articulate your background in cards. I don't play card games, I never have. You tried very hard to get me into one piece. You played a couple times. I played exactly once. And I also am very frequently in my LGS, and I'm often there during Friday Night Magic when things are in full swing.

Why Warhammer Invites Spectators

SPEAKER_00 30:45

If I bring this back to the context of the question that we started this episode with, which is why does it feel so cool to play a game of 40k in the LGS? You want to know what I have never done when I'm coming in showing up at my LGS? What's that? I've never walked up to the magic table and been like, oh, that's so cool. What are you guys doing? Yeah. And it's I think some of it is the you started to to hit on it when you were saying flat versus dynamic. I would uh phrase it as the card games to me feel very one-dimensional. And the and 40k feels multi-dimensional. And there's Okay, so can we admit as human beings we all kind of like positive attention and positive affirmation? Even if you're like me and you'd you would swear up and down that you don't, and you don't need that attention, and you like it when people leave you alone. Yeah, it's it feels good when I'm in the LGS and someone comes up and they're like, dang, you painted your fulgram awesome. Yeah. So my observation, uh, and I'm asking this as a question to you, as someone who has much more experience with card games than me, has been when I'm in my LGS and seeing and observing people playing card games and whatnot. Like you you watch folks playing Warhammer, and we already talked about all the ways that people will walk up and get excited and geek out about it with you and get excited about what you're doing. They're interested in your models, your paint scheme, your list, the the how you're playing the game, the what mission you're playing, the how's it going, the narrative side of it. There's a list of 20 questions that people will ask you before they get to, hey, who's winning?

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Yeah, that's that's an aspect, right? Of like, you know. Well, normally if you're walking up to a table, you have two people that are engaged in basically a card game that's a conversation, right? Yep. Now, some of the things that can come up, right, inside of a card game, you know, chance is a thing, right? Your deck rotation, right? You get lucky on draws, sometimes you draw the right thing, sometimes you don't draw the right thing. So that that does play a part in it, right? But I feel like the immersiveness of a card game is between you and your opponent only, right? There's not much outside of the two of you playing in that moment that you know somebody from the outside can g engage with. If you come over to a table and two guys are in in a game, or two gals or whoever are in a game, and you come up and say, Hey, who's winning? Right, they're not gonna respond to you.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

They're not going to. Because one, I mean, they might actually. I mean, that's not fair to say. It depends on how competitive it is, right? But if if if they do respond to you, it's gonna be like, oh well, right now it's looking like this, and like uh, you know, that's probably all I'm gonna talk about because one, I can't tell you what's in my hand, two, you see what's on the table. Um, three, you know, I can't give away my strategy, so it's pretty much gonna be uh, hey, that's cool. Like right now, don't know, we're not there yet, but you know, I think I'm doing pretty good. And then you're gonna go back into your thing, right? Whereas I think something like Warhammer or other tabletop games, it doesn't even have to be Warhammer, um, you know, there's an aspect of like, hey, what's going on? Who's winning? And then you can be like, oh well, you know, the this part of this happened, and like they got some really good shots in over there, and this, and you can see that this thing's kind of set up and all this other stuff, and and it's just an aspect where I think that that dynamics of it playing out on the table like is more immersive, and you don't have to do things like give away your strategy or talk about what is in your hand or anything like that to be able to assess it. And I think that that's what makes it a little bit easier for somebody who's a bystander to get kind of involved and excited about what's going on on your table, um, from uh from that perspective. This is a tough this is a tough topic for me to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Oh, you're you're good. You took it exactly to where I think I could use some help working through it, which is there's a lot more of 40k that is an open book type game.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

The scoreboard is always there, the who has what CP is always there, the what secondaries you have on the table in front of you that you've scored already, and therefore you can infer the ones that are still in your deck, those are still available. The what stratagems and rules and everything else that you have is intended to be things that anyone can access and and you should have full awareness during a game, which creates, like you said, this like there's so many different ways for people to walk up and go, Oh, that's cool. Like, I've had moments in my LGS where like I love it when the people who are playing the game have their codecs open right next to them. Because I get to walk up and be like, Oh, you're playing that faction. Like, I don't know a ton about them. I won't touch your book or flip through it, but do you mind if I just read the detachment you're playing? Oh, that's sick. I didn't know you had a stratagem that could do that. Have you used it yet? Yeah. And then like it it just gives you there's so much more to latch on to from an excitement from a that's cool perspective. And I think there's an aspect of that with playing with the LGS of you get more one, you get people who latch on to those different little things because 40k is so much more multifaceted. And so you get to see what parts of the facet that that people find exciting. But the other thing that I've noticed, and we see this in the LGS, I saw this in the in the Crusade League that I played. You know, I I scope out best coast pairings and I'm I'm tournament curious, so I look at the ones around me, is like even when you go to a tournament, which is a competitive thing, they give out a bunch of awards. And it's not the like everybody gets a trophy. It's like they'll do the person who won the tournament. There's best painted, there's typically like a best sport, the person who showed the most sportsmanship as ranked by the players that they played against. And then they'll have things like the average guardsman, which is the person who finished bang 50% middle on all quantitative metrics in the scoring. They'll have like the unluckiest Grot, which is the person who finished dead last, and everyone celebrates them. So I just I don't know. And and there's also like you go to the bigger tournaments, and I've seen this like you can get best in faction. So even if you didn't win the whole tournament, you can still walk away going, Well, I was the best Necron player at this tournament, or I was the best Emperor's Children player at this tournament. So it just strikes me of the because it's so multifaceted, there are so many things where you where you can just find enjoyment, find ways to relate to other people. That I that's the part of it I find super interesting. And I think to answer your your opening question, that's the part of it that I like about playing the LGS is being able to share those parts of the facet that I find cool and seeing how other people react to that and the things that that I'm bringing that they latch on to and go, oh wow, that's really cool. I've you know, I've never seen someone build an Emperor's Children list that way before, or I love the way you painted your fulgrum. I hadn't thought about doing that. So that that you you kept referring to card games as more flat. I would say it I I wouldn't choose the word flat, but I get where you're going and I agree with it. Of there's just so much more to latch on to, and I think that's a part of why it feels so cool to play in an LGS, because you'll get a lot more interaction, and there's a lot more just ways for people to to engage and be like, oh, that's really cool that you're doing that.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

And don't get me wrong, I know we're we're gonna get roasted on this one a little bit, but and that's okay. I'm I'm all here for it. Roast us away, it's fine. Um there's still the aspect too in

Card Game Highs and Lows

SPEAKER_03 40:07

like a card game though, where like you could get on a tear with cards or set up your hands so well, and if you have people watching you play, like it can get pretty intense. Like it it it you know, like the this the setup and the oh my god, this is actually gonna happen, and I'm gonna pull off this, like, you know, once once in a tournament type, you know, action, right? Is wild. It's absolutely wild, super addicting. Um having been on the other receiving end of that stuff, it can it cannot be so great, right? Having been the person who's been on the receiving end of somebody who pulled off a once-in-a-lifetime hit, and you're like, wow, that sucked. Um, I I think that the the card games that I've played don't necessarily give you a chance to get back into something when that happens. So, like in 40k, there's there's an aspect where I do feel like oftentimes, even though you might be down and you might feel like you're losing, you're not all. And there's something you can do that kind of pulls you back in. It kind of reminds me of golf in that way, right? Like you can suck for like 17 holes on a golf course, but on the 18th hole, you hit like this massive drive and you're like, that's why I golf. Right?

SPEAKER_00 41:43

You hit that one shot that keeps you coming back, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Or you sink like one like you know, 20-foot putt in a in a round of golf, and you're like, Yeah, yeah, you know, this is why this game is great, right? I feel like 40k gives you those opportunities. My experience with card games, when you get routed, you get routed hard, and it it sucks. It's hard. Um, and because the games are a little more fast-paced, and um, you know, like I said, it's it's a very you know 1v1 interaction, right? There are there are games out there. Please don't roast me on that. I know not every card game is 1v1, and there's other formats and ways to play. But what I'm saying is the interaction of an action is very 1v1. I am being routed, um, and there's not much I can do, or I just got milled, my deck got milled, and I didn't even get to play because I was just milling cards this whole time. Um, and so I think the lows of playing a card game can be a lot lower than 40k. But I also do think that the highs can sometimes be a lot higher than 40k. Um you know, when when you figure out and the planets come aligned and your strategy comes together perfectly and you pull off a win um with the combination that you've been working on for so long, that's that's that's a super impressive and amazing thing. And cards, card games can can bring that element out. And a lot of people love that. They s they hunt for it. They they that's why they play, you know, just to see how many times they could pull off that, you know, elusive combo that you know they they could get off. And and I think fundamentally they are different. I know that they're played in the same place. I know that local game stores promote both of them. I promote both of them. I love card games. It's just it's it it is it's different, it's just fundamentally different.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Yeah, and it's nowhere in this am I saying card. Games are worse. No, no. I I think what I'm saying though, and you hit it perfectly on the head, is they are different. And I I the one place where I will be that guy a little bit is if you're playing 40k, play 40k. Don't don't bring a card attitude into 40k. And if you're playing cards, don't bring 40k expectations into cards. And I think, you know, again, we'll close it out on a positive. But to answer your question at the beginning, part of what I love about playing the LGS is I think you and I both embrace the full like, hey, we're here in the LGS playing 40k. And people respond to that. And I I really enjoy that.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Yeah. You just have to dump something that I think is interesting. You're throwing out so many baits tonight, it's not funny. Um the aspect of bringing a card mentality to a 40k game can be very dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

And I mean, it is the number one bugbear for me. I you have had to restrain me at multiple times when I think that is occurring.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

Yeah, I mean it's kind of hard to explain. Um, but yeah, just I I'll I'll just put this out here, but I don't want to go too deep into this. I will just caution people that, you know, sometimes when you bring a card mentality or a trading card game mentality, you know, just remember that on the other end of the table, um, you know, people put their heart and soul into uh the the the armies and detachments that they put on the table, and they're very attached to them. Like you can get attached to a card, but at the end of the day, it's a piece of cardboard, right? That somebody wrote some pretty impressive words on there. And I listen, I have I have boxes of my favorite cards, and I have cards that I would never get rid of because the artwork is so amazing. But you know what? Some artists did that artwork, right? The artwork that's on the table, I did that, and you know, that's a different attachment and a different way of feeling, and sometimes disassociation that can come from you know, it's you know, it's not a big deal to take someone's favorite card off the table as much as it is a big deal to take someone's favorite toy off the table, and we're all human, and those types of things should be considered when you're trying to be a respectable person in this community.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah, it well, and I think the beauty of 40k is it gives you a way to do that and be considerate of the person you're playing with's feelings without like, well, I'm just gonna play worse and let them win. Like I have been on both sides of blowout games in 40k where both players walked away going, that was awesome. To include me, when I was on the receiving end of getting blown out. I had a game where the admec player I was playing, I think we talked about this in the episode, he tabled me, and I killed like a squad of Skatari idiots, and that's it. And we both walked away going, that game was phenomenal. And you know, it's because there were so many other things at play that we could both enjoy that went beyond just who was winning and losing. And I've been on, you know, the other end of games where I blow the doors off my opponent on the scoreboard and I'm killing a lot of their stuff, and they're still having a ton of fun. Like one of my favorite games that I've played this calendar year is I had a buddy that I met at the LGS. He's a fellow dad, and we we arranged to get together and play a game at the LGS, and he specifically said, Hey, listen, my my son is getting into playing Necrons, and he thinks Catan are cool, and I want to play with him, but like Catan, this was the height of Pantheon of Woe, Necrons, Catan spam as the meta. I was like, Well, I I have a bunch of Necrons in Catan, I'll bring that list and we can play a game. And he beat me, and he beat me straight up. Like, I wasn't trying to lose, I wasn't pulling any punches, was I giving him some advice as we were playing, and is and were we talking through it together? Yeah, but he beat me straight up. And I was thrilled to death for him that he did. So that there's I don't know, to to your point, I think there's just so many ways in 40k where you can it can be fun even if you're on the losing side. And to your point, some of that is you gotta bring more than the card mentality.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

I think I think that the though, like that aspect, that aspect can be true for cards too. Right? I think fair.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

This is where we see my I don't know enough to have an intelligent opinion there.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

I think it can be that way for cards too. Um, I think that oftentimes though, like when you're playing, like, say, you know, a weekly tournament or something like that, like you're you're trying to win that night against everybody in that room. Um, you know, so it's it's a little different in that aspect, I think, of like, you know, you you can you can have games where you're excited for the other opponent. They did something really cool, and and I would implore that people who play cards kind of bring that attitude there. When I say the don't bring a card game mentality to the to the table, I think it's more about things like don't try to just deck stack your opponent so that you go win, right? Play the game because it's really fun. And and play play, you know, play the game to be competitive, um, play the game to win. Um, but I think there's an aspect of you know, play true to yourself. If you're always out there trying to just deck stack your opponent every time you go to your local game store to play, it's you're probably gonna get a reputation. Um and I I think that that's that's that's uh that's a thing that maybe doesn't transcend card games to like tabletop games, I think is is that style of play. So that's my warning label. I just I want to see everybody have a good time. I want to see everybody have a lot of fun. Um, you know, and I think that that um if you play chart card games like card games and 40k like 40k, you're gonna do that, and I think that it'll all work out just fine.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah. Can we talk about WTC now? Because I'm dying.

SPEAKER_03 51:11

You started this, you took me down this rabbit hole. So I warned you it was a rabbit hole, and I gave you a choice. I I knew I don't think you really gave me a choice.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Uh I don't think the choice was out there. Um it I gave you the choice of how deep to go. I just didn't realize you would eat all of the catnip.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

Fair enough. All right, so what's going on in WTC? As everybody knows listening out there, we love WTC. When I say we, Eric loves it enough for both of us, but I also do love it.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

I was gonna say I love it enough for both of us, and you humor me because you're a good friend.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Fair. So what's going on? What are you noticing about your favorite time of year?

SPEAKER_00 51:53

I just think there's some lists there that are really cool. Like, yeah, and yes, this is the most competitive that 40k gets, and there is an element of all the teams are trying to deck stack against each other. Like they are all coming to win, they're all coming to represent their country. The part I think is phenomenal is they all still do it in a way where they're all friends and they're excited to see each other, and there doesn't seem to be a ton of terrible feelings towards each other. But I don't what I think is cool is there's just like four or five lists that I read, and I was like, oh, I want to play that like immediately. I don't care if it's good against the things that I play, because all of these things are built for purpose to stack the deck against something else that they think is gonna show up against in the the tournament, but there's just some really cool lists, and I so hold on, you said something, and I'm gonna touch on it.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

So you so so they are all deck stacking against each other, yeah, which is kind of funny, um, considering the diatribe we just had. Um well, isn't it set up so that like you have to have uh representation across the dispositions?

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Yep, and that's what makes it it's deck stacking with friction. You need equal distribution across the dispositions. You can't just bring eight space marine lists, you only get to to represent each codex once, and space marines as a large conglomerate to include all of the non-codex compliant books, you get one. So you can't bring like Dark Angels and Blood Angels, you get one Space Marine, and so that forces a whole lot of trade-offs when you're trying to deck stack. You also have the opportunity because they go through a pairings process where your opponent can refuse a matchup depending on how you set up, and there are ways to get around that, and they try and pin each other, and there's a game within the game of of trying to set up the right matchups, but it's there's a whole lot of friction that also gets induced in that deck stacking, so it waters it down a lot, and I I think that whole part of it is really cool.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

So that's really wild, actually. That like you get to throw. I actually didn't know that. I didn't know you get to throw out like if okay, if I'm coming to the I don't want that matchup, I'm throwing that one out. That's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

So it it the way the process works is so let's assume so you and I are the captains of two teams. And so way the process works, you and I each drop what we call first defender. And so we we put down one, you know, that they have specialized cards, we put down the cards, we both flip them over at the same time, and this is okay, this one army, each of these are playing in the first two games, and they're not playing against each other. So we've taken two cards out of our hands, and you know, for the sake of it, let's say I'm playing, I drop Necrons as my first defender, and you drop Death Guard as yours. Okay, cool. They're out of our hand, they are not playing against each other, and they're gonna get to pick the board that they are playing on. Now each one of us looks at it and I go, okay, Steve dropped death guard. You look at and you go, okay, Eric dropped Necrons. We each then nominate two what are called attackers, and we put two cards on the table. And you put two against mine, I put two against yours, and those are attackers that we are nominating, and the defender has to accept one of them, but it can reject the other one back. And so the the game within the game is you want to pin the defender into two matchups that they really don't want to play, but you you also dodge the well, I've got the one silver bullet to your thing, and I'm gonna put that one thing down, and you have to accept it because they could just send it right back to you, and now that's back in your deck, and maybe they have something in their deck that is a silver bullet to what you thought was the silver bullet.

SPEAKER_03 56:13

And again, it's hold. I I want to clarify something. So we just we spent 30 minutes talking about how deck stacking can be brutal, right? And then but this one doesn't feel as bad, and I think there's a reason why, and I think the reason why has to do with you kind of know coming into it, part of the game is deck stacking against each other, like that's the whole the whole point of this is to do that.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

It holds to the tenets we talked about of what I think makes 40k different, which is they have turned deck stacking into an open book. Yeah, everyone knows everyone else is gonna try and do this, and they've created an entire process through the matchups to manage it and to give both sides a little bit of agency to try and dodge the deck stacking. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Which feels very different than if you and I were to rock up to the LGS and you're like, hey, I'm really excited. I haven't played my guard in a while, and I brought this really cool list that you know, and I found some of it online and my own tweaks based on what I had for models, and I'm running like 150 guardsmen, I'm doing infantry spam, and I'm playing, you know, I don't know if it's Siege regiment or combined arms. It I'm playing whatever the the good detachment for infantry spam is today. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. I brought green tide orcs with 120 orc boys that are each gonna get like five attacks in melee. And you're like, great. So you deck stacked against me, and I go, no, uh, no, it I I was gonna play this regardless.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Like it it takes that awkwardness out of it, and it just no, the point is we know you're gonna do it, so we've created a process to manage it because we all we know all of you are doing it, and now we've turned that into a game within the game, and everything is still above board and open faced. And then what I think of what's really cool about it is then they publish all of the lists ahead of time, like a week and a half ahead of time, which is what I've been geeking out about. So everyone can look at it and go, Oh, in my pod, I'm playing these three other teams, and I have access to all of their lists. So before I even show up at the event, I have a good idea of what they're gonna try and deck stack into me with, and I can prepare for that, and I can prepare my counters, or I can just go, Yep, sorry on this one game, Steve, you're gonna get thrown under the bus, you're gonna eat the deck stack, but it's because we think we can get good matchups for the rest of our team.

SPEAKER_03 58:57

And I I'm I'm here for this. I think this is cool. I I I do. Um I just think that sometimes you think deck stacking is bad, and it's kind of cool that they have a whole thing centered around it and they've just turned it into the game.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

I'm not sure I would ever want to play in this event, but what I love about it is Yes, you would.

SPEAKER_03 59:19

Come on, you'd love to play in this event. We've even talked about how you think that the Barnhammer team could potentially put together a pretty good WTC.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

Not at this level of pressure.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

I okay. All right, fair enough. We're not gonna ever compete at the world level.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

But LGS RTT level, I would be interested in this

Wild WTC Lists

SPEAKER_00 59:38

kind of thing. But the the thing that I think is cool is the list diversity that comes out of it is insane. Like there are some really cool lists that came out of this because people are building it with some level of certainty of well, I'm only gonna go against like two or three things, so I don't have to prepare for every army out there, I just have to prepare for this kind of archetype. So they can do things like there's an orc list on Team France that is 20 squig hog boys, gaz 20 boys, and like that's it. It's and then Wazdaka Gutsmack. It's just all the beef. That's that's a ridiculous He's playing four Death Stars, Wazdaka, and like a squad of Gretchen. What does that wa look like? Horrifying. Like that is four tractor trailers driving at you on the highway running you over.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:51

I mean, that's just like literally the epitome of like YOLO. I don't know what the kids say today, but we would have been like YOLO, you know, like yeah, you call wah, you got one shot at this, do not miss your chance, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

And there are some armies that is terrible into. Like, if they tried to play that against my gray knights, I'd be like, oh, that's cool. I'll just deep strike in behind you after you call the WAA.

unknown 1:01:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

But against certain armies, that is just gonna run it over. I would love to watch that game. But it's a just it's such a cool list. Um, there's a a Chaos Demons list that's out there, which looks like it is hyper-aggressive and intended to run over the kind of guard spam list that I articulated to you earlier, where it's slanesh demons with a 1 DP detachment that gives them all advance and charge. And it's just, I'm gonna take the fastest moving demons that have some really cool stratagems that have a really wonky detachment rule that give you access to re-rolls to hit, and I'm just gonna run at you on turn one and try and pin you down and kill you. And if you are at all infantry shaped, this probably isn't gonna be a good game for you. That's funny.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:21

So I I mean it it sounds spicy, it sounds like something that I I would get a kick out of watching. So that's it's uh it's a pretty cool preview you're giving us here.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

I I think that part of WTC is cool. It's to the point you brought up earlier of this is the kind of stuff that if I were to show up in an LGS and not tell you and I had created a list like this that paired perfectly into yours, you would probably be pretty PO'd with me after the game.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:49

I think we've both been on the receiving end of that. But that's not very fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

If I told you, like, hey man, this is a cool, really cool list. It's probably horrendous into some things and excessively good into others, and I kind of want to see what it's like on the table, you'd be like, Yeah, I kind of want to see it too. Like, let's find something that's not like terrible for either one of us, but let's try and figure out a game that would be cool to play with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:17

Well, I think to sum up like some of the discussion earlier, and then some of what you're talking about here, like I th I think that that is the fundamental difference. I would say that WTC might be a little closer to card gaming, actually. And and kind of what I was trying to figure out how to put my thumb on earlier is you know, deck stacking is a uh a built-in part of the game, whereas casual Warhammer or you know, playing in like a local uh, you know, uh league or something like that, you know, it it can it can be frowned upon on the 40k side of things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

And it I would argue a tournament, the the bigger the tournament gets, the more you know, there's an expectation that everyone is trying to build the silver bullet list based on what they expect other people are bringing. But again, you you know that going in. That's a part of playing competitive 40k.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

So I I think I think that that's that's that's sometimes the the attitude and capability that people can bring to the game, but I think oftentimes they can actually maybe lose some of the connection and immersion of the game by doing so, you know, and it takes you out of that. So I think those two things can can live together inside of the community. Um, but I think transparency and understanding which one you're in, I think is gonna be really important. And I think what I was trying to say earlier helping me to kind of think through it real and live is you know, trading card games you tend to you tend to always be trying to have the silver bullet. Um, and that it's kind of maybe just transparent from the jump that that's just how it is. Um, you know, and it's it's a in my opinion, a little harder to play that immersive casual game.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

And I don't even know that you need to throw the casual layer. It's a little bit harder to play that multi-dimensional game that like you again, your opening question to this why is it cool to play in the LGS? To play the kind of game that would be really cool to see in the LGS. Because one of the things I'm not gonna do is if I walk by a table and one player looks really happy and the other one looks ready to murder their their counterpart, I'm probably not gonna walk up and be like, Oh, that's really cool what you guys are doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:47

So, anything else going on in your WTC world, or do you want to save that for our next episode? Because we are coming up on time.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

I don't know that we need to go too much deeper. I I will I will give View this one because you always sigh when I end the episode talking about the Emperor's Children. You want to know what the coolest list I saw on it is, and I definitely want to play it. And it does have a little bit of a gotcha built into it, but it just looks like it's innovative to the point where I would not have thought about this, and I think it's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

Yeah, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

It's the blood angels, and it hurts me to say that that it's not the emperor's children. But you love blood angels, like there's a blood angels list that the guy who built it is taking the tank spam detachment from the space marine codex with the sanguinary guard detachment from the blood angels faction pack. And he has 18 sandguard with characters and a land raider redeemer. And I'm pretty sure he's gonna charge Dante plus six Sandguard out of a Land Raider Redeemer and then try and reactive move them back into it for safety. And that is just wow, that's not something I ever would have thought of.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

Yeah, that is wild. Yeah, that's wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

I don't know that I'm good enough to pull off that list, but that is really, really cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Okay, so why don't we take that list and the next time we play at the LGS? Let's run that list into the guy who's playing the guard list that you told me about earlier. That's pretty spicy.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

I think we we both are gonna have to get more models to do that, but I'm game.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

Oh, so you're saying we have to continue this hobby and indulge our habits? Oh darn. Oh darn. Yeah, I don't think either of us have a problem with that. So here's what we could do. I say we set ourselves up to play that game. We talk about the lists, we talk about building out the lists, why we think they're so hot and spicy, and we can talk about that maybe next week. That works for me. Cool.

Conclusion and Outro

SPEAKER_03 1:08:07

Works for me too, buddy. Well, I think I I mean if the if there's anything else you would like to nerd out about on WTC.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

I think I'm good for now.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:20

That this I all week, folks, he's been like, I really want to just talk about what is happening in the Teams tournament.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

I'm gonna be honest, I'm a little shell-shocked by how deep you went on card game theory. And that was like, I'm not saying like, oh wow, Steve said something smart. I can't believe it. Like, dude, that was deep, and I was not trying to bait you to go that deep. So I'm gonna go back to the show. I got a lot of pent-up feelings. I can't even think of an Emperor's Children reference to make at the end of the episode. I'm so shell-shocked.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Well, I I think I'll call that a victory then. I'll I will take that for a victory. I think maybe we'll just sign off.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:08

I think this is a sign from above. You need to build a siege regiment list because you definitely shell-shocked me with your artillery on that one. Hey, hey, hey. Don't give anything away. That's next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:19

Oh, sorry, that's the secret sauce. Alright, everybody. Enjoy the rest of your week, weekend, whatever it is, and we will see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

Happy WTC season, everyone. Take care.