From Murder Cases to Music Legends: Ethical Documentary Filmmaking with Oscar-winning Producer Caroline Waterlow

I often recommend documentaries as a good way for people to learn more about others who they might not have a lot of experience with. But not all documentaries are created equal. There are so many decisions involved in ethical and responsible storytelling. 

In this behind-the-scenes episode, Dr. Michael Baran interviews Oscar, Emmy, and Peabody award-winning documentary film producer Caroline Waterlow. Caroline isbased in New York City and has been working in the documentary film industry for almost 30 years. She produced such award-winning documentaries as OJ: Made in America, STAX: Soulsville, U.S.A, Vow of Silence: The Assassination of Annie Mae, and so many more. In this episode, Michael and Caroline talk about a wide range of fascinating issues: (a) ethical representation in documentary filmmaking, (b) rapidly building a culture of inclusion and safety with project teams, (c) bias and inequities faced by women in this industry, (d) building trust with people, (e) fascinating behind the scenes details about the making of the documentaries, and so much more. She ends by giving us a teaser of her upcoming work, dealing with themes of sex, AIDS, body positivity, and public access TV in New York City.  

Resources mentioned:

Caroline Waterlow IMDb page

OJ: Made in America on Netflix

Stax: Soulville USA on HBO

Vow of Silence: The Assassination of Annie Mae on Hulu

Cameraperson on HBO

Subject on Prime Video

Transcript

From Murder Cases to Music Legends: Ethical Documentary Filmmaking with Oscar winning Producer Caroline Waterlow

Is your company struggling, navigating through high turnover, toxic leadership, or a culture that's holding your team back from reaching its full potential? Well, you're not alone. So here's your host and guide, Michael Baran.

Hello everyone and welcome to the Culture Advantage podcast. I'm your host, Michael Baran, and today I have a real treat for you. I'm gonna be talking with documentary filmmaker Caroline Waterlow. Now I bet many of you have watched the OJ Maiden America documentary. Probably what, eight years ago that came out.

Michael Baran: It's this incredible epic journey through race and culture and sports and fame and the legal system in the United States. Well, [00:01:00] Caroline won the Oscar for that documentary because she produced it. Now, that is not her only award-winning documentary, film or series. Now you might be thinking that this is a big departure from what we usually talk about on this podcast, and in some ways it is, and it'll just be interesting to anyone who's a fan of documentaries or film buffs in general.

You're gonna get to hear some of the behind the scenes fascinating details about how documentaries get made. What are some of the big questions that creators face as they attempt to represent people and events and tell compelling and ethical stories? And if you've been listening to this podcast, you might've even heard me recommend documentaries as a good way to learn more about people that you might not know that much about.

But the making of a documentary is not just [00:02:00] straightforward. There are a ton of choices that go into it, and a ton of ethical questions and people or a group of people can be represented responsibly or not. And there is definitely a history where sometimes people have not been represented responsibly.

People being, you know, othered or exoticized or homogenized, and those might only not do good, but actually might cause harm. So it's not just a matter of watching any documentary that's out there, but about watching good ones, responsible ones. But how do you know? What are the questions to think about?

Those are some of the things that Caroline and I are gonna get into in our interview coming up. And then also, it's interesting how actually on brand this is with the other podcast episodes we've been doing. There are lots of [00:03:00] parallels, lots of the same themes that we often talk about here that often run through.

This world of documentary filmmaking, this specific and very particular industry themes, like how do you build a good team with a good culture of inclusion and safety so that everyone thrives and we make the best product? What do leaders need to do to create that culture? How do you build trust with people?

What kinds of biases and inequities do women face in this field? I don't wanna talk too long here because it's such a gift to be able to learn from someone with Caroline's experience and skillset. So let's just get right into it. Here's my interview with Caroline Waterlow.

All right. I am here with the incredible Caroline Waterlow. An old friend, and just an [00:04:00] amazing still. What's that? Who looks really young still? Who looks really, yes. Yes. An old friend from long ago, but we magically don't age. And Caroline is the producer of so many impactful, important, and award-winning documentaries.

You probably know her because she produced the OJ Made in America documentary, which won the Oscar for best documentary. It's an epic. Like one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, not just about oj, but about America and Race in America. It's really incredible. And she's done so many other documentaries that have won awards stacks, which has won a bunch of awards about the music scene.

In Memphis Assassination of Annie Mae, which is an incredible documentary. Just so many award-winning documentaries. So excited to talk with her today. [00:05:00] Caroline, welcome. Thank you, Mike for having me. I'm excited to talk. All right, you're a documentary filmmaker. This podcast is all about culture, the how to build the best culture on your team, in your organization, in your friend group, like all the different configurations of culture.

And I wonder, I better listeners don't even necessarily know what a documentary film team even looks like. Like who's. Who's involved? How many people are there? How do you work together? How long do projects take? Let's just start there and set the foundation. No, that's a good idea. 'cause I, and also even my own title producer, nobody really under, you know, it's a very nebulous title and it means a lot of things.

So project literally just starts from being a kernel of an idea or an article you read or a person you meet, or, you know, get your ideas from all these different places. [00:06:00] And, I mean, I would say typically it begins with a sort of with producer and a director, or one of those people, and then you bring the other one on fairly quickly.

So there's usually the director who is the person with something to say, and through their lens, and the producer comes along and kind of midwifes this creative pregnancy. The process that goes on where you have this idea and you sort of nurture it and you grow it, and you, and a lot of what I do is work to execute the vision, right?

So, okay, how are we gonna do this? How long is it gonna take? What are the lo I mean, it can be the most minor detail and the most. Macro detail, in terms of how to get the thing done, and that's building the team to do it. It's figuring out how much the whole thing's gonna cost, but all serving the vision and serving the creative that.

We're trying to achieve. And of course you have to make a million compromises [00:07:00] along the way. Right. 'Cause you have a perfect idea of a perfect story and then it has to intersect. , The age old art and commerce thing has to happen. Yeah. Which is hard. And so you have to be pretty clear about what are the things you're willing to compromise on and one of the things you're not, and figure out sort of your boundaries and your guardrails to kind of protect the core thing that you're trying to do.

So yeah, it's a really weird job, but I love it. And it's. Yes. And, so yeah, the first, you know, when you do, I guess you, you can't really build your team until you have some resources. And I would say that's one of the things that just plagues this, that's a problem constantly in this world is, you know, you work for free for a long time while you figure out how to get the thing made or how to get it in front of HBO or get it in front of some, you know, so that becomes just a murky, complicated space because.

Certain people care, but you know, I might, it's my baby. I'm trying to get the thing made, but I need help finding some great archival. I [00:08:00] need a researcher to help me or I need, and so I can't really expect that person. To do that for free and care about it the way I care about it. And so, you know, there's just this constant, navigating of the rules of money and who's getting paid and it's a job, but it's a passion and it's a thing.

So it's complicated. So, , I would say the thing I've learned over the years is just trying to be. As direct and honest with people as possible about what they're getting into. , And you never quite know. You never know. Is this a one year journey or a three year journey? So this, these are long term projects.

I mean, sometimes that's more than, that's more time than people stay at a job, right? Completely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, and that, becomes fraught with issues too, if it takes. It's too long, right? Yeah. So I would say from the point of, okay, I have an idea. My colleague and I and have developed it, we figured out how to get, you know, we convinced Hulu to help us make, you know, to make it and pay for it.

. And at that point I have to, A lot of what I have to [00:09:00] do is assess how long and how much money it will take to make the thing. And I have to, as I build a budget, think about all the people that need to be on the team. Mm-hmm. And so, you typically will have a director, a producer, and this might be, this is maybe for a feature doc versus a series.

I tend to work on historical things that have a lot of archival research. So you have an archival producer, so a producer whose only job is to manage the archival, and that's finding it, licensing it, paying for it, helping the editor, work with it, all of that stuff. The editor is very, very, very important role in a documentary.

And again, people don't really understand what editors do, but they are in some ways, the writer, you know, writers. Because with documentaries, unlike a scripted film, you gather material, gather material, gather material, you dump it in the bowl, you mix it up, and the editor is the person who's sort of receiving all the ingredients and starting to figure out how much of each thing [00:10:00] you need in the story.

And they work very closely with the director. And so you have these teams that kind of get made that you don't necessarily have like a set organizational culture already, so you have to kind of create it for each team and there are different configurations for each different project. So I feel like it would be super helpful for people to hear in your experience what's worked for creating a culture where everyone feels, you know, valued and.

Safe and creative and safe to be themselves and safe to suggest outlandish things and like the basically what cult kind of culture is conducive to the best possible collaboration and end product and with people that are feeling cared for in the process. What works? No biggie. It's a small challenge.

Yeah. The thing that I would say, so in all of these roles I've mentioned there's a sort of three or four people who are sort [00:11:00] of the more senior people, I guess you would say, on the team, and then you also have production assistants and associate producers and a post production pa or you know, so there's different stages of production and so there's different roles that come into play, right?

There's also crew who are part of the production when you're shooting, and then there's people who are. The home base at home receiving material. So, and the reason I say that is because it's a very bifurcated process. And so I think the problems, the things I've learned from things that have blown up in my face, the problems come when you have too many compartmentalized people.

And obviously the working from home thing that's happened since COVID has really exacerbated this, but production inev like inherently has some of that already built into it. Because you have people in the field gathering material, you have editors at home receiving, so you have people in different spaces doing different things.

So. People can feel isolated very easily. [00:12:00] Editors are often locked in an edit room somewhere. And they'll say things like, yeah, you guys really, you didn't get the establishing shot. Like, we need a shot of the, like, why didn't you do this? Or you, we really need this shot. You didn't get it. And you're like .

Do you have any idea what we were dealing with in the field? I was dealing with, you know, a crew that was hungry 'cause the lunch came late and the people and the, you know, so I have dynamics over here that prevented me from doing the thing that this person needed. And so trying to kind of humanize everybody's experience for each other, I think is the thing that I've learned is really important.

And keeping people up to date on the wins and the challenges. And if you don't make people feel included and understanding of. You know, the things they have to anticipate why they have to anticipate them. And if people don't give each other reinforcement constantly and let them see the cut, like, which is, you know, editors and directors get very protective of the rough cut of the film.

And they, but it's like, yeah, but if you don't show the production assistant or the archival producer where it's going, they don't [00:13:00] understand how their job is helping the process. It's communication within the team and it's hard. Yeah. Yeah, when you're a lot of time pressure, you know, and that mirrors what we hear so many times, even in large organizations where people feel disconnected.

They don't know what's happening in a different department, they feel siloed. They don't know what the overall picture is or what the impact is. And people want to feel that, they wanna feel connected to what is happening overall. So a lot of people at different organizations talk about. Yeah, I just wish the leaders would fill us in more.

Like, what, overall, what's the organization doing this week? Where are we headed? You know, how does my work and my department's work impact what we're doing? So it's similar. What other, I mean, it's not rocket science in that way, but, you know, it's amazing what a team dinner. Can do for the morale and for making people feel like they're all part of [00:14:00] a contributing part of a process.

It's a basic thing and it's, I feel like I just learn it over and over and over again. And it's so true. Yeah. Yeah. So that's exactly what I was gonna ask next. Like what specific things do you do to get that, besides communication, to get that cohesion, that feeling of being on a team, that feeling of inclusion where everyone feels valued and respected and heard and understood.

I mean, it's. It's really hard. I mean, I, you know, and I don't know that I've perfected it at all. I mean, I know I haven't. And, one thing I will say is that every time. You make a documentary, there's a point in the middle of it when things are going crazy and things are happening that you didn't plan on and whatever, where there's a point on every film where you say, we should be making a documentary about the making of this documentary.

Because the things you start engaging in, you know, you, there's like a meta thing that happens while like all of us making it [00:15:00] take on the energy and the issues of the film and you sort of play them out. On your team sometimes. It's quite funny how that happens. Yeah, so I think, I mean, the thing that I have been doing that I've learned that I think helps a lot around this is.

It's quite important when I hire people to understand the culture that they have come from, right? Mm-hmm. And I don't mean their personal life or their family or their, you know, anything like that. I mean, the work culture that they, how did you learn this job? What are the experiences you've had thus far?

Because every time I would say the. Every time I have a problem, I, it's because I say to myself, well, I assumed you knew that. I assumed you understood this process. I assumed you, you know, and you just, you can't make assumptions like that, and that's always the problem. So trying to understand clearly where everybody.

Is coming from, in terms of their level of experience and the kinds of production companies they came from, or the filmmakers they worked [00:16:00] with, or the, you know, did they, are they a film student or not a film student, or, you know, like all of those kinds of little things really help me understand, how to help be successful and productive.

Yeah, it's, it. That's so interesting what you were saying about the making of the doc, the documentary about the making of the documentary. It's fascinating. I was thinking kind of unrelated to the specifics of our podcast. I wonder, since so many people have seen the OJ documentary, like, can you tell us some of the behind the scenes on that?

Like what would the documentary of the making of that look like? Right. I mean, that was a film that I would say part of the success of it in the end is a reflection of how kind of fluidly and organically the thing came together. And the team worked. It was one of those projects that was a little bit lightning in a bottle that sort of like, for whatever reason, and I have become a lot more like woo woo in my [00:17:00] life, in my work life, but I just feel like the universe sort of like.

Opened a portal for that film. You know, there was just a confluence of events that made that film really successful in terms of the larger world and our team and all the rest of it. But yeah, I mean things like, you know, and you learn that these things that happen that seem terrible when they're happening, just.

Push you creatively into a different place. And so you have to just embrace the chaos a little bit and be like, okay, there's a reason that this, you know, for example, the director of the film, Ezra Edelman, you know, one of the people who's most fascinating to him, was Chris Darden, right? Who was one of, who was a black prosecutor on that team.

And you know, he was treated very. Sort of badly in the press with a lot of racism around it, I would say. And. He was trying to def, you know, he's prosecuting the murderer, who he thought was the [00:18:00] alleged murderer of this woman who had been dealing with domestic abuse. Right? And so he was very pure in his intentions.

And and then this kind of. Dynamic took place in the trial. Right. So that would be an example of someone who, you know, the director was really, really, really wanted to talk to him and the film would've been a certain way if he had been a big player to tell his truth for the first time, to tell his experience, you know, and he basically was like, it's just all too painful.

I can't go there. I don't wanna go there And just said, look, I upset that a person who you feel like is so interesting to the dynamic of the whole thing, who just.

For their reasons. And you have to be respectful. And it's a very, that's a process too, where you're like, do I keep pushing? Do I take no for an answer? Do I respect this person's boundaries? But maybe we need to convince them a little more that we are the people to be trusted with the story and that, you know, and it's also like you're in the story.

I mean, this happens a lot where you're like, you're in it. So we are going to talk about you and other people are going to [00:19:00] talk about you, whether you want. Them two or not. Or whether, you know, it's just the reality that like you are a key player, so like your name's gonna come up, you're gonna be in some archival footage.

You're gonna, and if you would like to bring your, you know, your version of the story, your point of view on the thing you experienced and lived, it might be good to do it to participate, but you also have to respect that people have all kinds of terrible. Traumas that happen in these events and you, it's, they don't wanna relive it and they don't want, and you have to respect that.

So I feel like that's kind of an example of something that maybe pushed the film in a different way and the directors has to pivot and yeah, figure out how to work. You just have to lean in to what is happening and sort of embrace it. I would say overall people were interested in talking, which. Was surprise, you know, more people wanted to talk than we thought.

And I think because there's a time period that sort of happens where 20 years after something, people [00:20:00] are, they're freer. They don't have that job anymore. They're not running for office, they're not, you know, they can reflect more sort of, honestly, because they're not worried about. The impact of Blow back again.

So many things come out of just these human encounters and relationship building, material that you don't think you'll be able to access. You Suddenly somebody is like, oh, okay, I see who you are now. I see what you're doing now. I trust you. Yeah. Here's this trove of photos that I have that no one else has seen, or here's this.

Mm-hmm. You know, there was a police. Officer that we interviewed who had come to OJ Nicole's house, called when she called 9 1 1 because there was violence in the home. And , you know, he wrote up the report and for whatever reason he kept it. Mm. Whoa. A lot of times when you're looking for police reports to corroborate things, they're like, oh yeah, that burned up in a weird storage fire.

Or like, oh, that went missing. Or, we've shredded everything from [00:21:00] 1970 or whatever. Like, and this guy was like, just for whatever reason, felt like he knew this was gonna come back at some point and kept it. And so he says, I don't keep everybody's reports. I don't have drawers full of garage. I have one report and this is the report I kept.

And it's like, wow, okay. You know, but those things only come from lengthy phone conversations and lengthy relationship building. And, yeah, so there's. Any number of things that happen constantly, just dynamic things that are happening that change, you know, your path all the time, and you have to just be open and flow with it.

Yeah. Yeah. And like in any business, I mean, stuff happens and you gotta adjust. Right? COVID happens and you gotta adjust or Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting, you know, sometimes I talk about how a lot of people think the culture of a team or the culture of an organization is like, you know, what most people do most of the time, [00:22:00] but how it's actually better to conceptualize it as the worst thing that happens that we tolerate, that we let go.

Interesting. Like that sets the culture. Along those lines ing, I wonder like what are some of the worst things you've seen happen or heard about happen in other documentaries that were being made? Well, I think, for me, sort of one of the biggest sins, I guess is. You know, the history of documentary, and we've talked about this a little bit, you and I, but like the history of documentary is not great, in terms of fetishizing, cultures and, you know, very kind of white scientist dominant.

Those are the earliest films. It's some British explorer who goes into an indigenous community and is like Manuka the North, or you know, you think of those kinds of films, you know, there's this kind of weird othering and dehumanizing that has gone on for a long time. Who went, that went on for a long [00:23:00] time and.

Documentaries. And so I feel like we're just, we've been constantly trying to reconcile that and so there's been a big movement lately in the, in terms of the ethics of storytelling, the ethics of documentary filmmaking, and so. I think for me, if you're going to make a film no matter what, whether you're going into a community that's not your own community or whether whatever it is, I mean, I worked on a Native American project recently and you know, was filming in many indigenous communities that I had never been to before.

It's not an experience that I had. And for example, but also smaller films I've made where it's like, I made a short film about like just a couple, a married couple and their life. And so that's not a big community, that's a family I'm going into. So whether it's a family or a community or whatever, you need to just be respectful and not, engage in what we call parachute, sort of parachute filmmaking, right?

You don't, you can't just parachute into a community or a family or person's life [00:24:00] and. Get what you need and extract what you need and then leave. So there is this kind of a colonial sort of, history almost that's part of this, right? So trying to not, do that. I think that's, that is the goal for me.

And that is the biggest, no, no. You know, that's where you have to draw the line, which is, and it's hard because it means you have to spend more time, building relationships. You have to spend more time on the ground. You have to, all of which costs more money, right? Yeah. And certainly I try very hard to build teams and crews specifically when you're filming, that have people who represent the community that you're in.

Mm-hmm. And, you want people, a people in the community to benefit from the project because, you know, Disney's gonna benefit or Hulu or HBO or whoever. Yeah. So there's that and. Figuring out how to make this beneficial to the people in it is the biggest thing. And it does mean you have to make certain sacrifices.

You have to [00:25:00] prioritize certain expenses. You have to, you know, you have to juggle the business of it around that. And the networks do have standards, and they do have things they want you to achieve, but really it's on you, the team. Legal risk is on you. You know, you're getting people to talk about, you can't pretend you're a therapist when you're interviewing people and get them to talk about their traumas.

You have to be careful about that stuff. You have to set those things up carefully. Manage people's expectations. Yeah. All of that kind of stuff. So for me, the trying to make sure that the community feels well represented and benefiting in some way. Yeah. On our Stax film. Which is a doc series four part series, and it's about a record label, and it's about many artists and many people.

So it's, it wasn't, you know, it's a record label in a time and a place in Memphis, and there are the artists who were on the label. There are the people behind the scenes, there's the, you know, PR person, there's the c, the brother and sister who founded the label. So it's a very complicated story, and when the director of that [00:26:00] project, Jamila Wna, who's really.

Really amazing and really sensitive and was really the right person for that film because she's sensitive in the right ways. He. Went to Scout and meet with some of the artists and you know, a lot of the people that you would think, oh, obviously you wanna be in this film that's gonna celebrate the record label that made you famous, that put your famous song out in 1968, or whatever it, you know, and they're like, I never got credit as a writer on that song, and so I don't get residuals, so I'm gonna help that label make money reviving a catalog with songs that I don't get any residuals on.

Why would I do that? Mm-hmm. You're like. Hmm, good point. Yeah. Yeah. So here we are going in like we're here to celebrate your music and we're here to celebrate this label in this time. And they're like, yeah, there's a lot of like difficult music industry, bad business dealings that are like. The underbelly of some of this stuff.

Yeah. And so we have to like, acknowledge. And so, you know, a lot of the way to get to encourage [00:27:00] people to wanna participate is like, okay, you're in your seventies and your eighties. Like, here's your time to like, you set the record straight and like say that if you wanna say that and, you know, give people space to, to talk about the realities.

Dealing with the realities of what people's experience are, rather than the like, oh, yay, we're gonna go like celebrate Otis Redding, or We're gonna celebrate hide hay and we're gonna, but like each one of them has a really complicated. Story with the ownership of their music, with the, you know, all of that.

So being open and not sort of going in with these prescribed ideas. But I was gonna say, around the paying of subjects, you know, we basically convinced, the powers that be who were sort of financing and people within the label that. We, obviously there's no reparations here that we can possibly tackle, but what we can do is acknowledge people's contributions.

So anybody who participated, we gave an honorarium we came up with. Mm-hmm. Which is not a lot of money, but , it's a sign of respect. It's showing that you're like, I get it. This is your time. These are your [00:28:00] memories. Just acknowledging with respect that what this person is giving us is a real asset for our project.

Yeah, and so that's something that's kind of like a messy topic in this. Yeah. It's like then you know, David Beckham has a series on Netflix and he got paid $20 million to do it, so, mm. Like, so it's just, it's, and I don't, I'm not advocating or I don't know. I don't know how I feel because it depends on the community.

It depends on the person. Does David Beckham need $20 million? Probably not, probably not. But do other people living in Memphis who once that label shut down in the seventies, didn't necessarily have a lot of. Opportunity after that. Like why shouldn't they be in control of their story and get paid for it?

Like, so it's complicated. Yeah. Super complicated. I mean, anyone who hasn't watched that, I would recommend if you're a music fan, even if you're not a music fan, check that out. One of the things I think would be interesting for people to hear also is. [00:29:00] Some of your experiences being in this, that industry as a woman, like we've talked about this before, just what have you experienced, what have you run up against?

What are some of the biases that come out? How do I, that's a good way to tackle this. I mean, I think, there's just regular old society stuff that's like just exists. For example, I've worked on sports projects, which tend to be pretty male dominated environments, and in certain, within certain companies there's a sort of broey culture that you have to dip into a little bit, and that's something that's, you know, you have to navigate.

There's a lot of work as a, as, there's a lot of invisible work as a producer. That goes unrecognized in the same ways that a lot of women's work goes unrecognized and is invisible, whether it's mothers in the home, homemakers, there's a lot of emotional labor in this job, and that is not so much results oriented.

That isn't, like a, there isn't like a tangible result to that other than [00:30:00] you helped, massage a relationship or you helped. Figure out how to get people to work together, or you figured out how to solve a problem with, someone who's an interviewee, who yeah, bristles at something. And you have to go in and sort of be very diplomatic and try to make everyone play nice together.

So there's this kind of like maternal. Thing that happens and you're also like worrying about what everyone's eating and you need to make sure that the crew is fed and you know, so there's like these weird intimate things that you have to do that are like, did every, you know, we are sharing an Airbnb, suddenly we're all kind of living in a house together.

Like, because that's the cheaper way to do it. And so like that's got its own set of issues. And so I think the experiences I've had are kind of. Along the lines of what other women in other industries and just the world have, which is there's this invisible work that goes on to nurture and care for people and get them to do, be able to be their best.

And because it doesn't involve a sort of like, well, here's the thing I made and I'm giving it to, you know, we're so deliverables oriented [00:31:00] in this industry and in capitalism, right? It's all about production. You made something, you have a product, here it is. And so all this other kind of work that is this like intangible .

Human relations. Yeah. Work doesn't really get recognized. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, you're making me think about things that a lot of women talk about in offices where like, you know, you have a staff lunch and like who sticks around to clean up the stuff. Right. It's not their job at all. Same level in an organization as these men, but it's often women who stick around or, you know, pre ai when it came time to like take notes at a meeting.

Right. All it's not like the men would say. Hey, I'm not doing it 'cause I'm a man. Right. But just don't do it. But miraculously, all of the men would say like, oh, I have terrible handwriting. Right. You know, like, right. And who would [00:32:00] step up to do it. Yeah. Like those kinds of examples. Has it gotten any, have you, do you feel like that's gotten any better in your years of working in this industry?

I do, I do. I absolutely do. I mean, when I started working in the sort of late nineties, you know, yeah, relative to now, for sure. There's just, because I just think things have become less gendered. Happily. There's, I mean there were a handful of female camera people when I started. There was like, oh, she's one and she's the other.

Like, there were, you know, it was like, like cinematography is very traditionally male, for example. And now there are tons of female cinematographers and it's great. And so I can see it just in the crew, people who are available to do things. And there are situations where, as much as I am a believer in like I want the right person for the job, who's really.

Got the great skill scout or whatever, but there are situations where you need a specific gender of person or a specific kind of person to do a job. [00:33:00] Because for example, I worked on a film about a teenage girl skateboarder, and we filmed her for like four or five years growing up on camera. So she went from being this kind of phenom at age 12, and we filmed her until she was 17 and went to the Olympics.

And so. You're watching this like, teen girl, girl, we're like filming in her bedroom. We're filming in her, you know, we're watching her do her hair in the bathroom and we're all the teen girl milestone things while she's also a successful athlete, you know, it's not appropriate. Like I'm gonna have a young woman, camera person in the, in the bathroom with a 14-year-old girl.

Like, that's appropriate. You know? So there are things like that that come up where you really do need all walks of life doing all the different jobs because there's just different. You know, security, you know, safety measures and respect for the people that you're working with and what will make them comfortable.

Yeah. Gosh, you've been able to work on such a wide range of interesting projects and learn so much about different people and [00:34:00] time periods. That's just amazing. Yeah, you, yeah, you just have to be very open. You have to be very, , and I think you just have to be. Stay really curious all the time, you know, and just be, curious about, I'm just, I'm so, I'm just interested in people's lives.

I also believe in sharing with people in a way that makes you human to them, right? So, like, I worked on a project about PTSD in the military in 2010. And the sort of urgency of that project was like, at that time there were soldiers coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan who were then committing suicide.

There were more soldiers dying by suicide mm-hmm. Than there were dying on the field, from their experience. And so I, and I worked on that film after my own father, like I had suicide in my family. And it was a really helpful. Thing to be able to kind of connect with people about, you know? And so while there are sort of professional rules about how much of your own life you share and how intertwined [00:35:00] you wanna be with people Yeah.

But like, how can I ask them to talk to me about the death of their son if I can't be like, look. This is, you know, obviously my experience was not in the military or whatever, but I understand this loss and I understand that you'll never really understand it and you'll have to live with questions for the rest of your life and how hard that is and like that.

So I just sometimes think that connecting with personal experiences of your own. It can be a good thing, but you have to, it's up to you to sort of know when that's appropriate. But I have had that happen. Yeah. I mean, gosh. I mean, thank you for sharing all that and, that's such a powerful strategy for people all, all across the board.

Like that idea of sharing first. As a way to like build trust as a way to make people feel safe to share about them. And building trust is so important in any workplace. Absolutely. And also I think certainly with a documentary too, like. We [00:36:00] make this assumption. We call people up and say, I'm interested in your story.

I'm interested in what's happened to you. I'm interested in your community. Like, will you talk to me? You cannot assume that people really understand what you're making. So that's another thing is making people understand like this is the kind, I mean, even like this. Young teen skateboarder girl I was telling you about, there was a point we had been shooting for like a year or something when she was like, I don't understand what you're making.

And we were like, why are you here? Yeah. She was a little, because it's like, you know, she's 13, 14 years old. She watches. Five minute videos on YouTube. She were, you know, younger people at that time. You know, this was a few years ago, but like, you know, they consume now much shorter doses of media, right? So the idea of like a, not a 90 minute film or a two hour film or an was just like, that's not what she consumes media-wise at all.

And so she really was like, I don't understand what you're making. And we was like, oh, okay. We need to stop down for a minute here. [00:37:00] And like. Show her an example of the kinds of things we've worked on and sh and let her see some of the footage that we've been filming. Yeah. So she understands, you know, what we're doing and what it looks like and what it's, you know, and that happens a lot where people are like, what are you making?

Let's, yeah. And you, we go in with like, well, I make documentaries for HBO and Netflix, don't you understand? And it's like, no, they don't. Not everybody does. Yeah. So that's always, oh my gosh, thing. Do, are there any. Stories that come to mind that are just some of your favorite wildest stories about like a serendipitous moment or something you learned or like something happened that blew your mind.

Right. Yes is the answer. There's actually like a lot of things that happen, things that emerge and, I'm trying to think of a good one for this. The most recent project that was completed, that's on Hulu, is something called, vow of Silence. The Assassin Assassination [00:38:00] of Annie Mae. And, it's about Annie Mae Pik two Awash, who was a indigenous leader, first Nations mig ma, woman from Nova Scotia, who came to the US in the late sixties.

Like a lot of people in her community would, came to Boston for work. And so in that time. There's obviously all the civil rights movement happening and all of the sort of activity of the late sixties political activity, and there was something called the American Indian Movement. The best description is that they were in fact inspired by the Black Panthers.

So it's kind of like the indigenous Black Panthers in terms of a. What, you know, radical group, if you consider fighting for good housing and jobs or whatever. Radical. Right. And, but they were labeled a, you know, like a militant radical group by the government and there was a lot of surveillance of them.

And anyway, she became very politically engaged, radicalized you could say, and joined the movement. Mm-hmm. And decided that that was sort of her calling and she rose to be a leader. Was murdered in 1975. Mm. And there's [00:39:00] been just tremendous mystery around her death for 40 years. Mm. For lots of reasons.

And, so this was like not a small thing to jump into. Yeah. It took seven years from start to finish. Took Wow. Four years to develop it before we actually got to start making it. And but that is one of those projects that did really feel like, you know, this, the spirit. Her spirit, the spirit of that, what happened has not rested, right?

Mm-hmm. And there's, it needs to be told it. It just sort of was like, it was a project that over that amount of time, so many things happened that really were just like, oh my God, I can't believe we, you know? So there were just things like, and it's really a function of time, like time and just. A lot of detail and developing a lot of relationships and I had, you know, amazing colleagues on that who, who did incredible work in terms of research and finding people.

But so, you know, there was a documentary, there was one [00:40:00] documentary that had been made about her. 1977 or 78, like Right, right. Within the timeframe of when it happened. So all, what's so interesting about it is obviously it's the original piece of the story, but there's a whole story that played out over over 40 years.

So you really couldn't have made a thorough story until now because so much stuff happened that were like lawsuits and court cases and you know, all these things. Mm-hmm. But the perspective of the people in that moment who were her friends who have just freshly experienced this horrible death murder.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, their emotions are just fresher than they would be if you were interviewing them 30 years later. And their perspectives are, they're so in the moment and in this aim, American Indian movement, you know. Situation. You know, my colleague pursued the filmmaker who had passed away and found the son of the filmmaker of that film from the seventies.

And he said, oh yeah, well we have all the original, like, so you have the film, the edited [00:41:00] film, but obviously when you shoot, you know, you roll, you shoot a three hour interview and. 15 minutes of it ends up in the film. Right. So he was like, oh yeah, all the full interview reels exist. All the original, oh wow.

The archive from the original making of that film is in an archive in LA and you know, so we spent time and then COVID shut the archive down for a year. And then the thing, you know, we like pursue it, pursue it, pursue it, pursued it. Had to spend a lot of money. It's all on film. Had to be transferred and scanned and made accessible for digital media now.

And anyway, we did all of that stuff and you know, it was just this unbelievable trove of material from all the characters in the story. All the players who, most of whom have passed now . Talking about Annie Mae talking about, you know, the mystery around her death talking about all of this stuff and you know, that just completely unlocked the film.

Like just Yeah, totally. And that's something that [00:42:00] came along kind of three years into the process. Wow. Wow. That's wild. There's things like that. So just, you know, we were filming in her community where she grew up in Nova Scotia on a reservation and walking around and, you know, and we had built a lot of relationships with people in the community.

So there were people with us, you know, sort of vouching for us. And we weren't just sort of, we didn't just show up and wander around. We like did a lot of work to make that process. Okay. For everybody and comfortable and, you know, and this woman, I mean literally it was just like walking by a house and she had, like had hung up flyer, like a big poster or something about, around the issue of missing and murdered indigenous women, which is a big epidemic in a lot of indigenous communities.

And so she was just, and she came out her house and. The team who was there told her like, oh, we're working on this project at Annie Mae Awash. And she literally went inside her house and pulled out this beautiful beaded headband that said Mig Ma on it. [00:43:00] And Mack and was like, I knew Annie Mae. She was a hero.

She influenced me. She was like a mentor. She made this for me and I'm giving it to you. Wow. She gave it to an Mae's daughter who we were with, and. So just things like that happen. Yeah. Wow. Just kind of, and it was really amazing, for people even on the crew to be like, oh, wow. She, you know, who were too young to have remembered who she was or didn't learn about her in school or whatever, to see that just a random person who was an elder, you know, absolutely knew who she was and had something of hers and I don't know.

So it was just things like that that just give, yeah. Energy to the project in a way that just makes you take leaps forward. You just have sort of open to them. So interesting. I mean, , some serious heavy subjects that you've made films about or series about, and some fun lighthearted things. [00:44:00] Are you able to share anything about what you're working on now that people could see in the near future?

Yes, I am, working on, a project about a really cool woman who had a cable access show in the eighties in New York City. Robin Bird is her name, and, if you kind of grew up in New York in the eighties, you are like, oh my god, Robin Bird. People know who she is. He is someone who had posed nude in magazines, had been in a couple of.

Porn films and she was very open sexually and she had this public access show that talked about sex. And, she would invite, you know, people who were strippers or exotic dancers or you know, artists in their own right onto the show. And she was talking about. Things that we now take for granted in terms of body positivity and bisexual.

She was openly bisexual, the queer community, all of these things at a time when really nobody else in mainstream media was talking about it. And you have to remember, it's like the eighties, right? So there's like. [00:45:00] Three big networks. There's a handful of channels. There's not, you know, there's not as much media diversity as we have now in terms of all the ways we consume things.

And so there truly was nobody in mainstream media talking about this stuff. And so Robin, is a real pioneer and she was talking about safe sex and AIDS before anybody was really talking about it. In New York City, which was a real ground zero for, I mean, San Francisco and New York obviously were big places that aids just, yeah.

Ravaged and it was just a really sad, difficult time. And people in the film talk about how there was a sort of magical time between Stonewall and aids, when there was a lot of freedom and a lot of progress. And then. When AIDS happened, obviously there's the, it was awful and an epidemic, but it gave fuel to the, to conservative people to say, see, this is why you're being punished for your bad behavior.

Mm. So it fueled a real backlash socially that is also really, you know, was really difficult. And so for people in those communities and so. Anyway, [00:46:00] so she's like a premier and also public access is a thing that, people forget and don't remember, but it was a real experiment in democratizing media.

And, you know, it got a little too democratic so it got shut down. So, you know, they started, there were people wanted to control the content of the shows more. And so to have live public access was just like too risky. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It got sort of phased out and so, Robin is now 70 and just amazing.

And so it's kind of celebrating, you know, what she did. That sounds incredible. Where is that gonna be? Do you know yet? We'll be on HBO, yes. Eventually. We don't know, exactly what the air date is, but sometime next year in 2026, I think it'll, you'll see it pop up. All right. Put it on your calendars, folks.

Yeah. Caroline, this has been amazing talking with you. So just so in. So much we can learn from different industries and different cultures and different interactions. And besides all of the like interesting historical stories and [00:47:00] tidbits that you've shared, where can people learn more about you, find out more about your documentaries?

All of them so people can go watch. Well, it's, you know, IMDB is a great in terms of, you know, when you have a filmmaker that you're interested in and, people who you think make good things. And you can go to IMDB Internet movie database and look up directors and producers and editors and cinematographers and, it's kind of a great way actually, if you find a film you like or a documentary, you like to just go dig deep on the full sort of repertoire of, you know, particular filmmakers.

I did have thoughts about two films, not of mine, that I think are really, if you're interested in documentaries and sort of the dynamics of making them, there's two really interesting films that I think are worth watching. One is called Camera Person. And it's made by this woman, Kirsten Johnson.

She directed it. She's just an amazing human and she's a person working very much in the space of trying to [00:48:00] diversify filmmaking and empower young people, and she's. Just a real force of nature. Wow. She was, and prior to being a director, she was a camera person for a long time and she was, she's one of these women I was saying, was like, she was one of the sort of two or three female camera people who were around kind of in the eighties and nineties.

And so she made a film that's basic, that ex. Tries to explain sort of what her experience as a camera person is and what it is to be behind the lens, and when are you supposed to come out from behind the lens and when are you not? When you supposed stay quiet? When are you I when you're filming something that's.

Dangerous or difficult or a war zone or whatever, like at what point do you put the camera down and help at what point do you keep, you know, what is your role in your job, to be impartial or partial? So that's a really interesting, beautiful film. So it's almost like it's outtakes from all the films she ever worked on and it's Wow.

Really beautifully done and beautifully edited. And and then there was a film that came out, I think three years ago that's really interesting, called Subject. Mm. [00:49:00] And it is about the ethics of kind of documentary filmmaking and even the language that we use while we're making them. Right? So I try very hard not to ever call someone in my film a subject, right?

It's very dehumanizing. And that's language that gets used all the time. We're like, oh, the subject, the subject, the subject. And you're like, the subject is a person named Julie. Okay, that's a human with a name and a thing. And so I think that, anyway, so it was a very good film made about. Like following up with people who had been in documentaries and how it had impacted their life for better or for worse.

And then a big trend now in Hollywood is to get inspiration for stories from documentaries and then make scripted versions of them. And so what they call the sort of, derivative rights on a project. When you own the rights on a project, there's derivative rights to make it into other things. And so there are people, but again, it's like, yeah, that's someone's life.

You know, that you're now gonna fictionalize some parts of, but [00:50:00] you're gonna really highlight the, you know, and people don't have a lot of say in it, in, in it if it gets done that way. So anyway, those, that's a film that I think is really, really interesting called Subject, and I believe that's on Amazon.

Okay. Awesome. Just, and I think a lot of this is. What we're all wrestling with right now is media literacy, right? It's just like. Being aware when you're watching something, like who made it, who got paid, who, you know, just the story of how these things get made is important and the perspective of the people making them, you know, is important.

And people might not think about that at all. Right? It's you sit down, you watch something for an hour and a half and don't even think about that stuff or realize that it took seven years to make that thing. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I think it's just always trying to remember that like things don't, nothing happens by accident in a film, right?

We measure everything carefully, right? So the shot, there's a reason that shot is in there for three seconds and not five seconds. There's a reason that that piece of archival is there. There's a reason. So these things aren't just [00:51:00] like happenstance, like everything is purposeful. Every an edit is a choice, right?

That's what at the end of a film, you have something called the EDL, the edit decision list, right? And the edit decision list is sort of like the list of the shots in the order that they come. Those were all decisions. Yeah. That somebody made. So I think it's like just a matter of being mindful about that.

Yeah. When you're watching things. When you're consuming things. Yeah. Cool. And thank you for giving people two things to check out. So I love giving people. Optional homework assignments. So now you've got your optional homework assignment. Exactly. To keep learning, to keep being inspired by these incredible guests that we have on the show.

So, Caroline, thank you so, so much. It's just wonderful to hear about you and the thought behind some of these amazing documentaries and the industry at large. So thank you for being here. I'm very honored to be here and obviously it's fun to see [00:52:00] where we have both ended up in our work and life.

And I think it's just really important what you're doing and I think people don't think enough about culture and don't think enough about creating environments for people to do their best. And, you know, we get so caught up in time and money always, I think. And usually when things have gone badly for me it's just because of time.

It's because I didn't take the time to ask the right question or I didn't take the time to check on how this person was doing, or I didn't take the time. It's always, always, always about that. And I think people are afraid also of. Like admitting when something's wrong and or saying like, yeah, I messed that up.

That was a bad decision. Like, sorry. Mm. Yes. I think a lot can come of that, but people are so afraid of taking responsibility for their mistakes and so I think you can do a lot by apologizing. You can do a lot by just communicating and being transparent and also just making people understand where you're coming from, and I just think we can solve a lot of [00:53:00] these.

Problems actually. Yeah. Super practical tips you just laid out and slowing down big decisions. Right. And asking, okay, who's not here? Whose voice are we not hearing? Right. What biases might be getting in the way of this decision. Mm-hmm. That will save you time in the long run. Absolutely. And. For leaders admitting that you don't have all the answers and when you mess up.

Yeah, I think so. And I think one thing I have to say about my mother that one of the like super practical life things that she gave me that has served me in my work really well and I remember at the time being so annoyed, but she's so right is like, you know, she was really uptight about, thank you notes and like writing people thank you notes for Christmas gifts or whatever, you know, whatever.

A lot, you know, just taking time. And I, and again, I've screwed this up at times because I just felt rushed or I didn't have to, whatever, but just. Taking time to make people aware of their contributions and saying thank you goes like a [00:54:00] really long way. Yeah. Well, and I can for sure, and I can attest for people that you are one of the few people that actually do act.

You do do that. You do do that kind of connecting. You're probably one of the. Only people that I regularly get postcards from when you're in different places. And that means so much. So you actually follow through with what you're talking about. I mean, I try, I try. I don't always succeed, but yeah, I think, just yeah, reaching out to people always consult.

Yeah. Things amazing. All right. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Bye. All right.

All right. There you have it. That is our show for the week. Gives us a lot to think about, hopefully to have even more media literacy when we consume media, any media. By thinking about some of these questions, you've got your [00:55:00] optional homework assignment that Caroline gave you of watching camera, person, and subject.

I'm going to link to those in the show notes and I'll be finding time to watch those as well. In addition, I would highly encourage you to watch some of Caroline's work. I will put the ones that we mentioned in the interview in the links to that in the show notes as well. And finally, I would be curious to hear your thoughts about any great documentaries you've seen.

Or any that you've found problematic. And I wanna know the details. I like to share resources like that with the community when I can. So please let me know what you found and your thoughts. You can email me directly, michael@cultureadvantagepodcast.com. All right, have a great week, and I will talk with you soon.

[00:56:00] So that's it for today's episode and the Culture Advantage Podcast. Head on over Apple Podcast iTunes or wherever you listen and subscribe to the show. One lucky listener. Every single week that posts review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes, we'll win a chance in the grand prize drawing to win a $25,000.

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