Even Though, We Will with Matthew Elfrid

Finding Hope and Faith After Child Loss: An Interview with Matthew EfirdIn this heartfelt conversation, Matthew Efird shares his journey through unimaginable grief after losing his son Noah to trisomy 13. Discover how faith, community, and personal resilience can guide parents through sorrow towards hope and healing.Main Topics:

• The emotional journey of diagnosing and mourning a child with trisomy 13
• The role of faith and Scripture in navigating grief
• How men can process emotions and support each other during loss
• Practical advice for fathers grieving the loss of a child
• Building community and seeking help when feeling isolated

Timestamps: 00:00 - Welcome and overview of Matthew Efird's story 

01:13 - The emotional impact of Noah's diagnosis and early grief 03:40 - Recognizing and processing feelings of helplessness 

05:43 - The medical journey and diagnosis of trisomy 

13 07:23 - Early thoughts and emotions as Noah’s life was coming to an end 

11:14 - How faith in Jesus sustains during tragedy 1

3:29 - The significance of understanding that children belong to God 

17:34 - The importance of example and mentorship in faith 20:02 - Reflecting on Noah’s unique story and God's mercy 

22:14 - The importance of trusting God's plan amidst suffering 

23:43 - The hope of reunion in heaven and trusting God's sovereignty 

26:56 - Navigating faith when emotions threaten to shake trust 

27:44 - The process of sanctification and walking with God in grief 

30:10 - Embracing worship and lamentations in times of hardship 

33:34 - Supporting others and offering presence over advice 

36:20 - The importance of listening and asking permission in support 

44:19 - Challenges faced by men without faith or community support 4

6:17 - Taking initiative to build meaningful friendships 

48:26 - The necessity of relying on Christ and avoiding isolation 4

9:15 - The leadership role of fathers in grief and resilience 

50:45 - Practical steps for men to seek help and community 

52:27 - Resources for grief support and how to connect with Matthew Efird 

53:35 - Final encouragement for grieving fathers and the power of faithResources & Links:

• Even Though We Will - Book
• Matthew Efird - Website
• Even Though We Will Foundation

Connect with Matthew Efird:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Remember, you are not alone. Reach out, lean on faith, and find community to walk this path of grief. Your story and feelings matter, and hope is always within reach.

Losing a child to cancer is a grief no parent should walk through alone. The Father's Refuge Podcast is a safe place for fathers and parents to share, heal, and find hope in the midst of heartbreak. If you are a father and you would like to share your grief journey with others reach out to me at FathersRefuge@proton.me 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There's so many things about his story that are so unique to our family that are these just little glimpses of mercy that God gave me that my perspective matters a lot, right? That that I I've wrestled with the whole time of the things that I don't get to do with him, the things that I that were taken from me too quickly, right? The the places I don't get to go, the things I don't get to teach him. And then on his fifth birthday, I was journaling, writing, and and God kind of prompted my heart, leading me towards this perspective of all the things Noah didn't get to experience. He also didn't get to experience me letting him down. And it absolutely broke me. And I just wept it to the hospital.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Noah lived for 57 and a half hours, and out of that grief, Matthew has dedicated his life to helping other families navigate child loss through his writing, podcasting, and the Even Though We Will Foundation. This is a powerful conversation about grief, faith, fatherhood, and finding hope in the middle of suffering. Matthew, thank you for being on the show tonight.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

James, man, it's it's truly my honor. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

As I was saying before we hit record, I'm sorry that we have this in common. We've both lost children. And uh that's something that no parent should have to endure or live through. And um that's why Fathers Refuge is here is to help provide fathers with some hope and direction and encouragement as they walk through either the treatment journey of losing a loved one or if they've already lost a loved one, whether it be a child or a spouse or a parent or whoever. So um yeah, I I I listened to episode 134 on your podcast, and it's um I really love the book that you wrote and uh how you uh broke it down into different parts, I think three or four parts. So where do you want to start?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Well, James, man, I appreciate you you having me. And my my hope is that the men specifically that are listening to this, that they will know that that it's okay to feel your feelings. And as men, I speak for myself, won't speak for you or anybody else, but I I really wrestled with that a lot of feeling like I had to keep my emotions in check. I had to um you know not feel things, I had to just always show up. And one of the things that I learned in my son Noah's story is that emotions in and of themselves are not right or wrong, right? That's what we do with them. Right? Jesus said, be angry and do not sin, and say don't be angry. And so I I really had to learn like how to how to process that and how to how to go through that. And for me, one of the things that that I did is I wrote and I wrote a lot, and it was a way that I processed and I taught and I talked to some dear friends and some professional help that allowed me space to share what I was feeling, even when it wasn't well articulated, right? That it it allowed me to get those things out of my head. And again, maybe nobody resonates with this, but I know for me, right, when it's in my head and I haven't verbally talked through it, it's a lot scarier in my head. But when I take the time to speak through things and talk through things, I I process them better. And some of the weight and control they have over me, it it it dissipates a lot.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

So can you take us back to when Noah was first diagnosed? I mean, I know you're you were a happy married couple and you have a baby on the way, and I know there was a lot of jubilation and excitement of having a child, and then all of a sudden you get smacked in the head with this this diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Aaron Powell Yeah, it's a great question, James. We um my my wife and our high school sweethearts outside of my relationship with Jesus Christ, best decision ever made. This is my best friend, I love her dearly. We got married. Um, she's a year younger than I am in school. We got married um after I graduated college, she still had her senior year of college left to go. And early, pretty early on in our marriage, we started praying through like what did it look like for us to grow our family. And we had dated a long time since we dated in through high through college, we dated in high school through college, and uh we tried for a couple years um kind of early in our marriage to get pregnant a few years into our marriage, eventually got pregnant with our oldest son, Walker, and he was born a couple years before Noah was. And so we went into Noah's appointment, felt called to continue to expand our family, got pregnant really quickly with Noah, which we're very thankful for. And we went to his second ultrasound appointment that was at 12 weeks. I think it was 11 or 12 weeks, and so we took Walker with us because he was gonna be able to see the baby on the screen, right? It was gonna be so fun, and it was very fun. And and he was an 18-month-old little boy, like he was kind of interested, kind of not. It was fun, but then he got disinterested over the time. And our um ultrasound technician was measuring part of Noah's body, and on the back side of his neck, there is a thickness that they measure on the back part of the neck. And if that thickness is outside of the normal range, that's normally a pretty indicative of a trisomy diagnosis. So trisomy 13 and 18 are the most common. They're a third or eighteenth extra chromosome. So tri being three. There's instead of two chromosomes, there's three of the 13th chromosome. And what we since learned is that it rarely supports life outside the womb. So we went into the after the ultrasound, our ultrasound technician did not tell us any of that information, but she sent us into the doctor's office. Our doctor came in after a few minutes and said, Hey, there's some abnormalities on your ultrasound. And James, that's the that's the word that still kind of rings in my heart and in my spirit of sitting in that little room waiting for what we thought was a routine ultrasound to coming apart in crying, asking questions, being confused, having to get genetic testing, having to get some additional blood work for Hannah to make sure she was okay, and waiting for I think it was 10 days between when we had that first abnormalities conversation and when she called our doctor called with the official results of his test saying that he had trostomy 13. And then that took us, you know, six months. We went into a season of anticipatory grief where we're grieving his diagnosis for six months. So between September of 2019 and March of 2020, he continued to grow, which we're very thankful for. There were a lot of things in the specialists that we met with and the ultrasounds that they were doing that was leading us to believe that he may not make it to term the way that his body was growing. But he was born March 7th, and then he passed March 9th. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

I'm so sorry to hear that. Thank you. What was was going through your mind as a father in those early moments?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yeah, so a lot of things that I can think back to. One of them is my inability to control. And man, I I wrestle with that. I still wrestle with that. I am an entrepreneur, got several businesses I've started and manage with the podcast, Pillars of Purpose, right? I've I love to create and do and solve problems. And this was a situation, a circumstance that I could not solve anything. And early on, we asked our specialists, like, hey, I see this hole in his heart, like as they're doing this in-depth ultrasound as he's growing, and they're saying, like, hey, he's got an issue here in his brain, he's got an issue here with his kidneys. It was major functions, heart, lungs, kidneys, right, brain. And I said, like, can he can we not go in and do surgery? Like, well, again, fixer mode. And he told us a really good analogy of the blueprint of Noah's body, the cellular level was off. And so it was impacting everything in his body. And so, you know, we we really couldn't control that. And so for me, it was a humbling experience of being realizing, coming to realization of things that I could control and couldn't control. And then what should I do with that? So that was a big emotion that I felt. And then secondly, was the we really went into protection mode. So, like we had this conversation with our doctor, she talks to us about the abnormalities, she shares some of the potentials that it could be. She tells us, don't go home and Google, which obviously didn't listen to, right? I know better than a doctor, I'm gonna go home and Google everything, figure it out. Absolutely. And it was not better, and it was very difficult to read, and it did not help me at all. So if you've got a diagnosis and your doctor tells you don't Google it, from one dad to another, don't Google it. It does not help. But we I remember what Hannah had to go get some additional testing, and the uh the ultrasound technician was sitting with her friend of ours, and I had to take I took Walker outside because he's 18 months old, he's brambunctious. We've been in the doctor's office for a while now. Mom and dad have been crying, you didn't know what's going on. And so I remember like at 18 months, like as a dad, it was so fun to see my son walk and run, and I always encouraged him to do that. But in this moment, like I immediately picked him up and just carried him outside. And it was like uh I have to go into protection mode. And and I really learned as a dad, like my perception of protection is very different now than it was then. It was I'm gonna be this big strong guy, and I'm physically dominating anything that comes in your way, right? You know, uh from our physical protection, mental, spiritual, like I'm I'm gonna be the guy that stands in front of you. And and while I still believe that, come from it from a much more humble standpoint of I do that because of who my savior is. It's not because of who I am, that I can stand here in leadership of our family, in protection of our family, and serving in this role because of who my savior is and how he's prepared me for that.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

As I think back, Jessica had a she had a brain tumor with two different types of cancers. One was not so aggressive, the other one was very aggressive. And we traveled from Hilton Head Island, South Carolina to Charleston to MUSC at like 10 o'clock at night, and they did an emergency surgery, three or four hours surgery, whatever. They came out and they said if she lives twelve months, she'll be lucky. They gave us no hope. Sure. And uh so we had no hope. And so we went through the um 14 months of treatment journey. Of course, that initially, obviously, we had hope. We had a lot of hope. Our our hope level was like, you know, pegging at twelve. On one to ten, it was twelve. We had lots and lots of hope. And we're believers, we're Christ followers, and so we did a lot of praying, talking to God, and and uh I I did some yelling at God too. You know, I went through the I went through the six stages of of grief, and of course anger and denials, two of them. And uh I went through all six stages fullbore multiple times, and I finally came to the realization that Jessica didn't belong to us. She didn't belong to us, she belonged to God. And while I was praying fervently for God to heal her on this side of heaven, I I one day I had an epiphany and I realized that no no matter how hard I prayed, that she didn't belong to us. She wasn't a possession, she was a gift. She was she was a child that God was allowing us to to hold on to and to raise and to nurture her and all of that. And when I came to the realization that she didn't belong to me, then then my prayer was, you know, Lord please heal her on this side of heaven, but thy will be done. You know? And of course, uh he took her to he took her home and healed her there. And I, as I listened to your um podcast episode 134, where you talked about Noah Clifton and you talk about unashamedly about your faith, and I like that, and we have that in common. And I have to say that your your faith and the way you handled your the grief was probably a lot better than mine, a lot stronger than mine. Uh because I I didn't handle it that well. That's not to say that I wasn't a man of faith at that time. I was, but I I I think that the the powerful emotions that were washing over us uh before she passed away and after she passed away kind of uh got in the way of I don't wouldn't say got in the way of my faith, but it it just my faith wasn't wasn't as strong as I would have liked it to be. Um it ju it just rocked our world, as you know. And so I I'd like to I'd like for you to talk about your faith in Jesus and how it allowed you or helped you to to navigate this journey.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah, it's a that's a great question, James. And and it's one that you know I I had seen modeled really well in my life by key people in my life that had walked through adult breast cancer, that had walked through Parkinson's, that had walked through heart disease, that had walked through losing a spouse or a parent. And I had these incredible men and women in my life that loved the Lord and loved him really well in good times and in bad. And they they took the mantra of like, even though he slayed me, yet while I praise you. And so, you know, I I I've since gone back to my dad, he's a role model of mine, and I'm so thankful for him and the the shoulders of giants I stand on, of both of my grandads, all three of these incredible men in my life deeply loved the Lord. They led their family well in sickness and in health, and they continue to pursue him until the end of their life. And thankfully, my my dad is still here on this side of eternity. And James, he when I was going to college, he um had always encouraged me in my life. You know, he before I went to college, I I I I don't know, genuinely don't know the number of times that I came downstairs and saw my dad reading scripture. I can't count the number of times I saw that. And it was not a chauvinistic, it was not a hey, look at me, it was not, I won't take a picture and put it on social media. It's way before social media. It was just he had a deep love for God's word and hiding it in his heart. And he modeled that. And he didn't just tell me to do it, he showed me how to do it. And he showed me by his example of doing it over and over and over again. And so when I went to college, he gave me a one-year Bible, and it was if you want to do this every day, you can read some of the Old Testament, some in the New Testament, some in Psalms, some in Proverbs. And in the end of the year, you've read through the scripture the whole way through. And so when we got Noah's diagnosis, I was my ninth time through reading scripture, and I had no clue what I was being prepared for. Right. I look back on my life, and and there's moments along my journey where things in my life took place. You know, I was on track for a pretty big scholarship to play at some pretty good schools for college football. Going in my senior year, I told my ACL, MCL, meniscus, and I'm relaying on the field, angry at God and confused and saying, God, I don't know what you're gonna do, but I want to try to trust you in this. And I look back now and I see like this amazing trajectory in my life has changed because of that injury. And I can take you story after story after story, right? That that I was I didn't know, but I was having built in me a resiliency of even though you slay me yet while I praise you, even though I don't understand you're still good, that your ways are higher than my ways and your thoughts are higher than my thoughts. And even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. And I I just continue to lean into those things. And so I love the Navy SEALs, I love learning about them. I think they're, you know, incredible people that serve in in our country. I'm definitely not one of them, by the way, just to be clear for your audience. But one of the things I love about them is they talk about the SEALs, their leadership style, their training style is to elevate the default standard that you have. And so because in battle, they say you don't rise to the level of the occasion. When you get hit in the mouth when when a storm comes in, like you default to your highest level of training.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

And I didn't realize how long I'd been training. I didn't realize how long that God had been graciously preparing my heart for tragedy. And so, you know, I look back on Noah's story, James. There's so many things about his story that are so unique to our family that are these just little glimpses of mercy that God gave me that my perspective matters a lot, right? That I I've wrestled with the whole time of the things that I don't get to do with him, the things that I that were taken from me too quickly, right? The places I don't get to go, the things I don't get to teach him. And then on his fifth birthday, I was journaling, writing, and God kind of prompted my heart, leading me towards this perspective of all the things Noah didn't get to experience. He also didn't get to experience me letting him down. And it absolutely broke me. And I just wept. And I just thought, okay, God, may maybe as you told Job and Job 38, where were you when I told the the oceans where to go and the land where to stop? Like, right? Where were you when I created in the foundation of the world? I was not there. Though my circumstances have changed, your character has not. You're the same today as you were yesterday, as you will be tomorrow. And I'm going to lean into you more, not less. I'm going to lean into my heavenly father. As you said, like these children of mine, they're not mine. These businesses of mine, they're not mine. That's money of mine, it's not mine, it's his. I'm just stewarding it for a period of time. And so when I look at myself and I say, okay, but God, if if I was going to do this differently, I would do it differently. And yeah, of course I would. But I'm not him. And I just believe when scripture says that his ways are higher than my ways, and his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. And so while I don't understand it, while I don't understand why he allowed this to happen to my son, I still trust him. I still believe that what Satan meant for harm, he can turn to good. But what the enemy had designed to destroy, God redeems. And I just believe that. I believe that God's in the redemption business. And ultimately, what I learned of myself, if I'm really, really transparent and really, really honest with myself, is what do I deserve? If I'm really honest, what I deserve is hell and damnation. Nothing short of that, right? I have fallen short of the glory of God. I have messed up repeatedly over and over and over as a man, as a husband, as a dad, as a business owner, as a speaker, as a podcaster. I mean, just me as a person, I am deeply flawed. And so when I look at a holy God and I say, I don't deserve this, the answer is yes, you don't deserve this, because what you deserve is what Jesus experienced on the cross. It's the wrath of the sin that's in my life that must be paid for. The penalty of my sin is death, right? And in that, that is what I deserve. Anything less than death is a blessing. So the time that I got with my son was an absolute blessing. And I believe what David said, right? That I will he will not return to me, but I will return to him. I believe that I will go to see my son one day. Every day removed from him is another day closer to him. That's a unique perspective that I get to share. Man, that that just it puts me in the place of saying he is God and I am not. And I'm not going to try to put myself in a position that I believe that I can, if I can fully understand God conceptually, right? If I can fully understand all of who he is, all of what he does, all of the mystery of the gospel that's enveloped within his scripture, then I could be him. And if I could be him, then what is he needed for? So there is a part of the mystery of the gospel that I will not fully understand. Does not mean I don't pursue knowledge, but the pursuit of knowledge is not in light of the trust and the faith that we have of who he is.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Well, I think the advantage that you had over me uh is the fact that you had uh a mentor, several mentors, people that that showed you how to to live a godly life and how to pursue God and how to study his word and love studying his word and prayer and all of that. Uh I didn't become a believer until I was like 17 years old. Wow. And uh my parents were uh my mother was a non-practicing Catholic. Okay. And I never saw my dad walk into a a church ever. Never saw him pick up the Bibles, and he was a raging alcoholic and horrible childhood. But how anyway, God saved me, and I am so thankful that there's this thing called grace and mercy in the thankful that that God died on the cross for the sins of mankind, past, present, and future. And and I spent ten years in street ministry and went through a lot of things, saw a lot of things, experienced a lot of things. However, I have to say that none of that really prepared me for what we went through with Jessica. And within the sound of our voice tonight, I want to I want to think that there are people of faith listening to this, fathers, but I also have to be realistic and think that there might be some men out there, uh, fathers, that are walking through grief that don't have that foundation, that don't have that faith in God. And so as Christ followers and as fathers who have lost children, um I want to talk a little bit about how the the emotions of of processing the emotions of of understanding that you're you're going to lose your child. I wonder let's talk a little bit about let's let's be a little bit transparent about how those emotions kind of rock your world and attack your your faith. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, it definitely does. Yeah, it's a great question, James. You know, we I'm I'm again very thankful for the the upbringing that I had, the example that I had, and and for the men that are listening to this that may not have had that. And and to you, James. The thing that's amazing about our Christian faith that I believe, as I believe you believe, is that a decision can change the trajectory of your life, accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. And it also also can change your family's legacy. I just I believe that. And I I believe that decision is very easy, and then the living that out of it is very difficult. Right. That the there's big church words about justification, sanctification, glorification, right? Right. That justification at the cross when we accept Jesus and His work, that He removes our sins as far as the East is from the West, right? That we're adopted into the family of God, that that we are our sins are he who knew no sin became sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God. So we have that. And then we have this big word called sanctification, right? And that's the the messy part in between, where after the day that we get saved and we're living out in eternity until we go to meet Jesus face to face at our glorification, that in between the sanctification part is where we mess up over and over and over again. And it's just slowly adapting our lives to look more like Christ. That's what that word means. It's stripping away the old me and it's bringing on the new me, which is a follower of Jesus Christ. It's the son of the King of Kings, right? That I'm I'm made in the image of my God, which is unbelievable. And I was made in such a way that I can worship him. And I give all that backstory to say I knew all those things, but in the the experience with Noah, one of the things that I learned so much is the opportunity for God as my father, right? I write about the prodigal son in the book, favorite stories in scripture. And you see this just lavish love that the prodigal, the dad of the prodigal son lavishes on his son, actually both sons in the story. And man, I just I felt that. I felt that from my savior. I felt that from my God because emotions that I felt were, God, why have you abandoned me? I felt the fog of grief. Like, you know, I'm I'm very type A. I'm I'm very visionary, I'm a builder, I love to create, I love to go and do. And I didn't have those emotions. I didn't want to think about the future. I didn't want to plan out the next 10 years. That did not excite me. I felt more bland. I felt more confused. I felt more overwhelmed with little things, cutting the grass, taking the trash out, like buying groceries. Those things felt like major deals for me. And one thing that I deeply resonated with was the perspective, you know, you you read in the Psalms and you read in this oscillation of David's life of worshiping and weeping, a lot of times back to back, sometimes in the same passage of scripture. And and I just I gave myself that freedom to say, okay, I'm gonna have moments while on this journey where I feel called to worship. And some of worship is lament, and I'm also gonna have times while on this journey where I'm I feel called to weep. And both of those things are okay. And I had men in my life that came alongside me and they opened themselves up to me to say, Hey, Matthew, we want to be here for you. We want to support you. We want you to have the freedom that anytime you want to talk, we're here to talk. We're not gonna force you to talk to us, but you have the freedom to talk. And in that freedom, you need to know that this is a safe place, which sounds silly to say, but right as like a as a husband, as a dad, as a leader, there's a fear of like if I say the wrong thing, people are gonna be upset with me. If I say the way I really feel, people will be upset with me. They may be concerned for me, they may be afraid. Like I'm feeling sadness, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm feeling anxiety, I'm feeling depression, I'm feeling anger, I'm feeling resentment. I'm feeling these feelings. And and those men, they drew those things out of me. And they gave me the space to say, this is how I'm feeling. I'm feeling very confused about this. I'm feeling very confused about how a good God can allow my son to die. I'm feeling very fr like they they just allowed me to have those conversations. And a lot of times they didn't answer. They just let me speak, right? You you look at Job's story, and when Job loses his family, he has these friends come and they sit with him. And it's a beautiful model of what I believe we're called to do with friends that are grieving. We go and we sit with them and we grieve. And where Job's friends mess up is they open their mouths and they try to tell Job how to feel and what to do. And that's not their place. Their place is to be there for their friend. And I had some friends that really modeled that well. And that's something I try to encourage people when I speak at conferences or I consult with businesses that are going through a grief journey, like they need somebody to help walk their team through that. That's what I do now, which I love. And it's an incredible calling that I have and and a gifting that I believe I have to speak around this and obviously to write it is to give us the freedom to say, I'm not gonna tell you how to feel. It's very disingenuous for me to not be in your shoes and to tell you how you should feel because that's not true. You don't you don't stand in need of me as your priest, right? We have the high priest, and I'm so thankful for him. And in your relationship with the Lord, I can help maybe articulate the way I have felt, and maybe it's illuminating to you and the way you're feeling, but I'm not gonna tell you how to feel. I don't know how you feel. I may have similar thoughts, but but I'm gonna sit here and I'm not going to tell you how to feel, but I'm gonna be present in your feelings and allow you to express them. And then when you're ready to ask questions, when you're ready to ask advice, I'll be willing to give it. But I'm not gonna just come in guns blazing trying to tell you what to feel and what to do.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I think it's I don't think it's normal for men in general to fix things. We view problems in our lives and our our families' lives and our friends at work, whatever, whatever it is we're doing when there's a when a pro when a problem is presented to us, we're like we're instantly thinking about how can I fix that? How can I make it better? Yeah, how can I change it for the best? How can I how can I navigate uh all the negativity in this thing and make it make it, you know, I want to be the knight in shining armor and I want to I want to write in on my stellion and save the day. And I and I'm reminded of that of that every once in a while. My wife will we've been married thirty-six years as of yesterday. Congratulations. And she'll uh I don't know how she hasn't killed me yet. But she'll be telling me about a problem or something that happened during the day at school. She's a teacher, and I'll instantly try to analyze it and and and and provide an avenue to fix the issue. And she'll remind me, she'll say, James, I'm not I'm not asking you to solve the problem. I'm just want to I just want to talk to you about the problem. I just want to tell you about the problem, and you just I just need for you to listen. Okay. You know, but it's our it's our n it's our nature to want to to help fix things, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Yeah, that and I I got some really profound advice in our premarital counseling, dear friend mentor of mine, did our premarital counseling. Uh he was our campus pastor at the University of Georgia, co-dogs, by the way, Franklin Scott, he's still a dear friend and mentor. And and he said, Matthew, when when you're interacting with your bride, your your natural inclinations is that it's going to go into problem-solving mode. And he said, Let me give you a piece of advice. He said, You take it for what you want to. But he said, There is an ability that you have to listen and listen well that will serve your family really well for generations. But you need to learn to ask your wife when she's presenting a problem to you, do you want me to listen? Do you want me to comment? Or do you want me to try to fix? And those three things I still do to this day, and I try to, I don't always do a great job. A lot of times I jump into fixing mode. But I I think for me, like the acknowledgement, I think we have a an inclination, God-given inclination, to come in and to model our savior, right? To come in and rescue, because that's what our savior did. He came in and rescued us, and we're designed in his image. And as men, we have the inclination to do that. But we have to be really careful to not try to take his place because we're not the savior. We know him and we can introduce you, but we're not him. And so I think it's really important that the distinction there is super important. And and I love that your your wife, you know, after all these years, is is you've created the freedom for her to step up and say, like, hey, no, no, no. Like, I don't I don't just want you to listen in this moment. It's great. You know, you've created a safe environment for her to do that. Kudos to you.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Well, we we have experienced a lot of things together, and we have we have both grown together, we've learned together. Katie is is probably the most selfless uh person I've ever met in my life. She's the most loving person I've ever met, she's the most giving person I've ever met, and because of that, because she modeled those things when we were younger, we're we you know, we we got married in our early 30s, or I should say late twenties, early thirties. She's uh two years older than me. And anyway, um I I can say that I'm a better man because of what what type of believer she is, what type of woman she is, and and that she modeled like I went through a horrible divorce before we got married, and uh one of the problems she had with me was that I didn't want to share anything. She made the mistake of trying to reach into she tried to reach into my plate and get a little morsel of food because she thought that was cute, and she thought that was what what dating people did. And I almost stabbed her in the arm with my my I was like literally drawing like a nub.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah. I was literally, and she saw that and she was like, hey, I just want to get a little morsel of food out of your plate. And I was like, this is my plate, this is my food. If you want some of it, you let me know, and I'll if I decide to share some of it with you, I will. But don't be going into my plate because that's my territory, my eye, you know, all of that. And anyway, over the years, she has taught me how to be more more caring, more sharing, and uh, you know, how to, you know, what's her love language, what's my love language, and all of that. Have I figured it all out? No. And the only reason I'm still breathing and talking on into this microphone to you is because, you know, God is is is stronger and more present in her life than he is in mine, to be honest. Anyhow, so I want to I guess one of the things I was reflecting on when you were talking about how people were presenting themselves in your life and allowing you the the um the space to to talk and and and just be present and not try to fix your problems. And well, I think one of the things that I've I experienced uh when my daughter was was uh hospice towards the end of her life, and it's like we went to church, you know, she our we went to church all the time. Every Sunday we went to church. And the while she was there in her wheelchair, the church family loved on loved on her and and she knew she was loved and you know um they knew she was sick. I don't know if they really realized to what degree she was sick, but anyway, we we could no longer take her to church. She you know, she's under hospice care and we were at the house and and then Katie and I noticed that people just weren't coming around. And I was like, I called my pastor and I said, Hey, you realize that Jessica has cancer, right? And he was like, Yes. And you know, he's he's a he was a uh director of pastoral care at Trident Hospital, so he's experienced in those sort of things. And I said, Well, I said, Nobody's coming around, nobody's saying anything. And he was like, Well, James, what do you want what do you want the church to do? What do you want us to do? And I was like, Well, if if they would like to see her before she's dead, maybe they should come around, you know. If you want to come come to the house and just you know, we don't expect you to come heal her, but you can just you know, people people are people are petrified and they're they are just it's like they're almost frozen in time and place and they don't they don't really know they don't know how to react. And they they're afraid that if they'll they'll say her name or talk about her that it's going to cause, you know, ugly emotions to well up in us, right? I just told the pastor, I said, just just have them come, just come hang out with her, you know. You don't uh you know, allow us to have a date night. Let's let us get away from the house for an hour and go out to to eat and just kind of get away from the situation. And so I think that I think that that men in general well, number one, you know, men were I I'm a baby boomer, and so I graduated high school in 1980, and so I was a child of the late 60s, 70s, and 80s, and and we were taught that men don't cry, and that you you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you you are who you are because of the hard work that you've done in your life or haven't done in your life, you know, and all of that. And so I think there was a lot of dads out there that maybe were raised that way, were raised in that environment where men, you know, they're told that men don't cry. And and so, you know, if they're all of a sudden they're facing this horrible situation where, you know, a loved one is has died or is dying, or you know, they're in the middle of this treatment journey and they got all these radically wild emotions, you know, the six stages of grief that that you go through. And and how do they how do they how do they figure out within themselves to to find a support system? Or, you know, you you had great great people in your life that were mentors that had great faith and they understood the importance of, you know, not trying to fix the problem or yapping in your ear and giving you all these suggestions for healing and all that stuff. But we have men out there that that they don't have that, you know, and so how do we what can we tell them that's that's going to help their situation, maybe?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Yeah, it's a great, great question. And it's one that I love to try to address and to try to address it in the most empathetic way that I can. And, you know, friendships, mentorship as a two-way street, a lot of times men, we like to blame other people for relationships we don't have in our life, and we don't acknowledge that we're a part of every relationship we have in our life, right? And so if we're looking to survive a difficult experience, there are men in your life around you that are willing to be connected to you. But maybe if you're honest with yourself, you just need to step up and make the connection. That instead of blaming somebody else for not making the connection, why don't you be the one? Because it's amazing. Like I I had this opportunity when I was in college to get connected to some dear friends that became roommates, were in my wedding, that they're just dear friends that I still am in touch with today. And it's the old C.S. Lewis quote about friendship, right? Friendship is when one man meets another and he says, Wait, you two? I thought I was the only one. And and it took me reaching out to some men that were around me that I said, Hey, I I want I want some people to hold me close. That's the greatest uh definition of accountability I've ever heard is somebody who wants to hold you close and call you higher. It's not trying to find you doing something wrong. It's no, no, no, I want to I want to care enough about you to hold you close in good times and bad and call you to something higher as a man because I feel like you're called to something higher than what you're currently doing. And so for me, the challenge of anybody who's listened to this is why not you? Like, yes, it's hard to be in a place where you don't have friendship. It's hard to be in a place where you feel isolated. I got you. I hear you, but all relationships are a two-way street. So you're just as much a part of your isolation as somebody else not connecting with you. And so there are men in your life that are praying for somebody just like you to reach out to them to connect with. They're they're praying for that right now. They may be praying for that last night or this morning or tomorrow. They're eagerly wanting that to be a part of their life. And you can be an answer to that prayer. You can be somebody that makes that connection, that that brings them into the fold, into hanging out if it's coffee, if it's breakfast, if it's lunch, if it's dinner, if it's golf, if it's cigars, if it's shooting guns, if it's whatever it is, find some commonality and spend some time together. And then in that moment, take some ownership over asking and offering advice, offering your ability to be transparent. Right? The the vulnerability in a relationship leads to trust. It always does. And so if you're wanting to have a trusting relationship, go first and be vulnerable. You don't have to share your deepest, darkest secrets the first time you hang out with somebody. But if you're struggling with wanting community, it's an easy way to connect with somebody and just be honest. Hey, man, I'm I'm wanting some community. And you're somebody in my life that I see that I'd like to hang around. That's the way I found everybody that's on my board of advisors. Everybody's a mentor of mine, everybody that that endorsed my book were were people that that I saw in my life that I admired. And that's the way I approach them. Hey, I see you. I see what you're doing from the outside looking at. I admire that. I'd like to spend some time with you. And it is amazing the level of response that you get from people that want to genuinely share. They just have a genuine heart for other people because along the way, they've had people help them and they want to help you too.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

But that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

For any anybody listen to this, don't try to do it alone. Don't try to do it without a relationship with Jesus Christ. You will not survive. That's the only foundation that we stood on as a family, as a couple, as individuals. And then ultimately, don't try to do this alone. You need community around you. And if you hear somebody, if you know somebody that's struggling, try to be their community. Try to be there around them. I got a lot of resources in the book that we found that was helpful for folks of reaching out, connecting, serving families that are grieving. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

So today you're helping other families who are walking through loss. What do you hope fathers listening to this episode will take away from your story?

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Yeah, that's a great question. I just believe as as dads that we have an opportunity to lead. I believe and we lead from a place of health. We leave a we lead from a place of holistic view of the life that we have created in Christ Jesus for good works, which he prepared beforehand. When we take that perspective, I believe that we show up to the workplace better, that we lead organizations better, that we lead team meetings better, that we lead our family better, that we lead our parent better, we're a better husband, we're a better friend. We just have that opportunity. And it starts with us being realistic with ourselves. It starts with us acknowledging what is going on inside of us and being willing to not have it all together. You know, upset for years. That is so rings true. It's okay to not be okay, but it's not okay to stay there. And we look at other people in their lives and we're like, of course they are not okay. And that's totally fine. And we don't give ourselves the grace to not be okay. And in Noah's story, like, I was not okay and I needed help. And and I was bold enough to ask for help. And and it helped us survive for sure. It it definitely was needed. And somewhere do you reach out to your pastor, right? It's it's the I'm so Seeing this in me and I'm gonna do something about it. I can be a woe is me kind of guy. I can be a victim mentality, and that doesn't help anybody. The the nature to complain, what good is that actually doing? Okay, let's let's man up. Let's go do something about it. God created us to be doers. Let's go do something about it. Do something productive.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

So, Matthew, thank you for your story. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you for sharing your story about your son. And somebody, anybody that's listening to this podcast, how would they get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Yeah, so I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and social media. I've got a team that kind of helps me manage some of that. Um I spend a lot of time with my family. I try to really protect that. And so I don't always respond, and I apologize for that, but but you can get connected to me there. The best way is if you want to find the book, it's EventThough We Will. You can find that on EventHoWeWill.com. You can find about for me consulting or me speaking at an event. If you got an event coming up, if you're looking for a speaker, be honored to serve your community that way or your business that way. You can also find out about our foundation that we have EventThough We Will Foundation, where we send care packages to families that have received a trisomy 13 or trisomy 18 diagnosis that our family has been touched, our extended families have been touched by both of those. And so we want to be able to support families that that are wrestling through that. We had some friends do that. We call them Noah's Arcs. We play off and Noah's name a lot. So you can find me on EventHoWeWill.com or my website's Matthew E for Duck.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

That's awesome. Thank you for sharing your story. And to the listening audience, I want to say thank you for the privilege of your time. And I want you to know that there is hope, then I want you to be encouraged. And I want you to know that if you're walking through a treatment journey or have lost a loved one to whatever situation in life, you know, whether it be uh critical terminal illness or car wreck or you know, whatever. I just want you to know that life is not over and life does go on, and yeah, it's gonna hurt, but you don't have to you don't have to suffer in silence. You don't have to, you don't have to don't feel like you're hopeless or that your siss situation is hopeless because it's not. And if you're here in the South, there's a church on every corner. So you may not be a person of faith, but a lot of a lot of churches have pastoral care, family counselors and people that that uh you can talk to in a moment of need. You can call 211, which is United Way, and you can tell them that you're a grieving father and that you know you're looking for resources that can kind of help you walk through all these emotions you're dealing with, and they will know of any uh programs in your area that can assist you. And it's like my it's like Matthew said, Don't don't go it alone. Don't try to to suffer through it, don't try to be, you know, a big man and be the tough guy because that's not gonna work either. Anyway. All right. Well, thanks for listening, and uh we'll talk to y'all later. Bye-bye. Thanks again, Matthew, for being here.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Yeah, it's truly my honor.