🎙️ Micromanagement in Disguise| Command 2 Corporate

🎖️  Not all micromanagement looks obvious. Sometimes it shows up as “support,” “alignment,” or “just checking in.”

🎯 Key Takeaways:

🔹 Micromanagement often hides behind good intentions
🔹 It signals lack of trust
🔹 It kills ownership and innovation

🎯 What We Explore:

🔹 Subtle forms of micromanagement
🔹 Impact on team morale
🔹 How leaders justify it
🔹 How to break the cycle

🗣️  Like, subscribe, and comment below—What has been your experience with micromanagers?

       You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts!

🔖  #Micromanagement #Leadership #WorkplaceCulture #Command2Corporate

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Whether you're leading for the first time, leading through change, or learning to lead all over again, this space is for you. No fluff, no gimmicks, just real talk from those who've led through challenges, adapted under pressure, and thrived in the face of change. Welcome to Command to Corporate, where leadership isn't just taught, it's lived. Let's get to work.

SPEAKER_05 0:25

Welcome back, everybody, to Command to Corporate. Another day. It's looking good out there. T, how are we doing? We are your host, LP and T T. How are you doing? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Doing great, brother. I'm enjoying this nice cool Texas weather. Yes. I'm sure it's gonna get crazy hot soon.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

Yeah, for sure. But yeah, these these cool days. I mean, it's been a lot of rain, but I mean, I can't I can't hate on the temperature because when you sit outside on the weekend, it's like just nice and cool and easy. It feels freaking good, really good. So I know I'm loving it. And then I'm as we talked before, I'm even more excited because I just got my 2025 50th anniversary on the Goldwing Bagger uh in my possession. It came in. I have been waiting for weeks for it. I mean, I started this process of obtaining this bike probably in March, and I just got it last week, Thursday. So it took a while. And I started with the dealership here after three weeks, they couldn't come through. Found the bike on my own, got shout out to RideNow Peoria and Peoria, Arizona. They came through for me, um, had the bike, secured it, arranged everything. A little bit of delay getting it shipped here. Uh, no fault to theirs, they were excellent. So anybody in in shopping around, looking for a bike, you can't find it locally, check them out. Uh, especially if you're in Texas, I mean, check them out. They they they came through, sealed the deal, it's easy peasy, nice. But got that bike out on the road, and it is a DCT dual clutch transmission that means it's automatic and everything is sweet. I couldn't be happy, and it was an early, early birthday gift from my wife, so I can't be mad at it.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

That was a birthday gift, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

Yeah, it was oh you didn't tell me that. Yeah, it was good because we were originally supposed to go to Egypt, yeah, which is now open for travel. And actually talking to a colleague from Europe, they said like Egypt never really shut down. Um but our advice from people over there was like, hey, don't, you know, it's not wise to come, but it was like more like during that initial period of all the conflict over there. We weren't going in October and they said, Hey, look, it's open, but according to our colleague of Europe, people kept coming. But because we weren't gonna go, and that was like a dream of mine to go, kind of a milestone birthday gift trip. It's like, well, hey, might as well get the bike. But now Egypt is open, so yeah, we have to do that too.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Man, your wife is smart, she's like, Here's a gift for you. Yeah, so now what are you gonna get? Her, I mean, that's that's tough to talk, bro.

SPEAKER_05 3:19

Well, it is, but for her, it's always trips, like she has places she's always wanted to go, and then she doesn't like surprises, so it's not like I'd be like, Hey, let's put this blindfold on, let's walk through the airport, you know, go to a gate. She would, you know, the the surprise might be where we stay once we get there, those kind of arrangements because we'll and how you get there, yeah. So what I have maybe arranged like tours, things like that. So that would be all right, cool. Yes, so enjoy you know, any other plans this weekend? I mean, we're already in into Sunday, so I'm already thinking about work tomorrow, brother. Uh uh, yeah, I'm about to jump back on that. Yeah, all right. So for today's episode, we are talking about micromanagement in disguise. Micromanagement in disguise. And so before we jump into questions, just for everyone's context, what is micromanagement? So we jump into that one first. So micromanagement is a toxic management style where a supervisor excessively monitors and controls and scrutinize an employee's daily work. Instead of focusing on big picture goals and outcomes, managers overly obsess over minor details, suppress employee autonomy, and stifle independent decision making. So as we jump into it, first question what are hidden signs of micromanagement? And I can tell you, common signs, I don't know that they're being hidden.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah, I think people know to micromanage.

SPEAKER_05 5:11

Oh, oh, for sure. Uh I'll so I'm gonna I'm gonna run down a couple of them. It says obsession with updates requiring constant progress reports, even when no tangible progress has been made, no delegation, reluctance to assign tasks, or insistence on taking work back to fix it to their exact liking. Communication bottlenecks demanding to be copied on every single email or requiring approval for minor decisions, ridiculous, strict process control, instruct employees on how to do a task rather than what the final result should be, and then heavy surveillance. That is oh, cannot believe tracking keystrokes, monitoring screen time, rigid micro policy, ridiculous. So I can't say that any of that would be hidden. I mean, anyone that understands and has been in the workforce any length of time would understand what micromanagement is. Now, maybe for younger generation coming in, never been exposed to it, you might be like, it might seem hidden to them, you know, but you got to you got to let people fly.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

I mean, you think you think uh, you know, that's a great point. I don't know if micromanag young people would really recognize micromanagement off the bat. And the reason I say that is because I don't know, like we all start like when you're young and just really don't know much, right? Regardless of how much schooling you've been to, the actual way of doing business on ground in new organizations is is unique, right? So you go to school, learn something, but it doesn't mean you can use it in the real world of work. And so you have somebody who's going to train you and mentor you on like, hey, this is how we do it here, and a micromanager would probably seem comforting to some to a young person, right? Because I'm like, I don't know anything, and this person, my boss, or whatever, is telling me how exactly how to do and what to do, you know. So I don't think, yeah, I don't know if a young person would necessarily recognize it.

SPEAKER_05 7:24

And I could see, I mean, I guess there's two sides of that. I could see where that could be a value, where maybe a manager is like, hey, you know, let me help guide you and show you, but then at some point they got to let them go and say, okay, let's show show me what you can do. So I think maybe not so much micromanagement, but maybe more oversight in a sense, or more guiding, more feedback to drive them. Okay, let's have maybe more frequent check-ins, uh, just because maybe like your final work product needs to be a certain way. So you're like, hey, let's let's review this because I want to set you up for success. So once we do it one time, after that, now you know the standard. So maybe we won't meet as frequently. We'll do a check-in, making sure you're aligned to what we previously discussed in a previous guidance. Yeah, that makes sense. But like for me, I I had an intern here recently that'll be concluding soon. And I had projects, and I would just basically like say, Here, hey, here's what I want. Um, I'd be like, Well, I would tell her, work your magic. I know you got some magic and then work your magic. Because you know, she'll she's like, Well, I'm gonna go to root YouTube and she I researched, and I'm like, okay, then you're on it. So just show me what you can do. Because I'm not pressed for time. I don't need to give you any guidance. I I mean, I give like a couple texts, like, hey, here's what you consider, but I'm not showing, I'm gonna just show you here's the product, here's things once you would consider, here's what I want the outcome to be. Now go for it.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

All right, or that means we're gonna jump around a little bit. I have a feeling because you said something very critical. I'm not pressed for time. You said I'm not pressed for time. When you have that luxury, yeah, I think it's easy to kind of let somebody go off and do their thing, right? Say explore whatever, check this out, check that out, and that's it. I've been guilty of yeah, I've been when I was I've been guilty of micromanaging, um, especially when there was like a super high priority with short time suspense, right? Like, I guess stupid. Like, I'll be honest with you. Like, I've been really probably it was very bad. Um, yeah, because I'm like, okay, you have this task. How are you gonna do it? And they tell me, like, well, no, I wouldn't do it this way, I would do it this way, you know? It's like because I'm trying to minimize mistakes along the way, because I'm like, we can't afford to have like mistakes now, you know. This is we don't have the luxury of like saying, Oh, okay, you know, let's learn from this mistake.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

So, is that when leading to our next corruption? Does that is that when support becomes control?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

This was absolutely control. Yeah, this was absolutely control.

SPEAKER_05 10:30

Nothing hidden about it.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

I just want to know your plan, right? Tell me how you're gonna do this, like what's your approach? And then I'm like, oh, like they tell me, you know, and I'm like, well, that's a risk area, let's let's do it this way differently, you know? And so like I'll make adjustments to their plan based on what they tell me. Now, absolutely that that is that is controlling, yeah, because you you're not giving them too much freedom. Um, but sometimes, like, I don't know, man. Sometimes it's hard. Well, it's hard for me at least to to give up that control of something that's my name's on the line and my reputation is on the line, you know, like yeah, I mean, I think that you know, when I think about my team members that I've had, I mean, I think it goes back to you know how someone might train up the team to begin with.

SPEAKER_05 11:23

They know expectations, they know how we operate, they know what you expect, you know, from both sides, from them, from me as a leader. Like when all of that's been ironed out, the trust is there. We almost kind of, I know what you're gonna want as a leader, or I know what you're gonna expect. I know that you're gonna say, like, what have you tried? So I'm already gonna come to you with all of this stuff. Um uh, maybe I send out templates and say this is the way we're always gonna do it, you know, and and you just kind of set a standard for yourself, yeah. Then it's like now it's just about managing the clock because you know what the output should be. So it's I think sometimes when maybe none of that has been established and it's just been on the fly, like action to action, task to task, no foundation is established. Well, then that's where, well, I want it this way. Like I'm gonna jump in and it's like, well, I'm doing my best, but nothing's been established, and then you next thing you know, the leader's taking control.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, it's not a good feeling. Don't get me wrong, like I'd be micromanaged as well, and it sucks. But yeah, I mean, I get it though. You know, I hate to say this, but I get it. Um, I mean, honestly though, like for me, uh micromanagers don't really bother me too much, uh, because I'm like, okay, they know what they want, right? I'm like, just tell me what you want so that way I don't have to like do work and then come back and for only for you to tell me no, that's that's not what you know what I wanted or how I wanted it done. You know, I was like, just tell me from the get-go, you know, like if you have a set way or method to do stuff, just let me let me know, and I'll do it. That's that's it, just saves me time, it saves you time, saves everybody time.

SPEAKER_05 13:23

That's true, like all up front. Yeah, I remember having this uh leader when I was uh in this performance improvement or operational excellence world. And I remember when I first started, I'm like, hey, I gotta it was a whole presentation to deliver, and you know, I have a lean six-segment background, so I know the content, but all right, it's gonna hit me too. Amber alert. Let me see, is it gonna hit me? Oh, it didn't hit me. So all right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_05 14:01

No, no, it's no problem.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Hey, even before it's like silence.

SPEAKER_05 14:04

Oh hey, it's gonna come through. Yeah, but I remember this leader, and he like I would say, like, I had a question about the way they developed some of the content because they did it in house, and I'd say, Hey, on like slide number 12 section, whatever. I have a question about that. He's like, Okay, well, let's start from the beginning. Oh, and go through every single slide, and the first two or three times I was just like, Okay, like you explained it stuff like like I didn't ask about any of this, and you thought you were gonna make sure I so then one time finally I said, Hey, look, I got a question about this. I said, I do not need you to start from the beginning, I only want to know what the what do you mean by this?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yes, ah, that's annoying.

SPEAKER_05 14:54

Yes, that's and then as soon as he went to go start from it. I oh whoa, whoa, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't care, I know that. What why do you say it like this? Please explain that to me. And then after a while, it was like, okay, okay. It's like, why are you starting? I didn't ask that. You wasting time. That's true. And I was looking like, like, why are you explaining this to me? It's like ridiculous. So, why do leaders micromanage? Why do you think leaders micromanage?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Ah, that's easy. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, there's no well, I don't know, maybe it's easy for me, right? So sometimes there's a lack of trust, right? Um, and so yeah, like if I don't trust a person to do something right, then I'm like, okay, you know, I need to make sure this person is gonna understand the out the desired outcome, understand like what their plan is. I'm gonna tell them how to do it, you know. But that's you know, it's also trust could be because like this person is new, right? They don't know our system, they don't really understand, they're not trained. So you know it's hard to trust that.

SPEAKER_05 16:05

Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, they can be new, and I know I gotta in integrate them, but I don't I can't say that I don't want to say that I don't trust them because they haven't done anything yet.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

No, but like uh you know, sure, it's not like distrust in like such a negative way, right? Because that's like I just yeah, there's no good way to make some distrust, yeah. That's okay.

SPEAKER_05 16:35

Because it makes it seem like they're like like because is it like yeah, if they're new, that's one thing, like you're saying, they're new. I want to make sure you get it right. I want to set you up for success. So it might be, I would say more oversight. I won't say micromanaging, but I would say more oversight, like, but I don't want you to constantly like I don't want to be on your back, you know, because I don't want to make you nervous and uneasy. But there's a difference thing where you know you don't trust them because they haven't delivered or they've had poor performance. But if that's the case, they should be there. Because I remember um I was working for a company and we acquired another company. So, and learning the department team members, a new person that was gonna report to me is like, oh man, I've heard of this employee, everyone on the the other company saying, you know, basically she's a rag bag, you gotta hold her hand. Oh my gosh, I don't want to get into having to micromanage anyone. I said, What we're not gonna do is do that. I don't care what they said about the person, you're gonna put forward tash, you're gonna say, go forth and execute, you're gonna check back in with her. But one thing you're not gonna do is my who has time for that? We don't have time for that, and if she does not deliver out the door, and guess what? The person stepped up. I said, Well, what one thing we're not gonna do is micromanage, uh, we don't want to get into that business because now if you're doing their job and doing all of that nitty-gritty stuff, when are you doing your work? Yeah, I know that's very true.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah, so that's interesting. So I do, you know, I remember having a philosophy in the army um where I just openly said, I will micromanage you, right? Um yeah, no, yeah, it was it was pretty blunt. Like it's one of those, it was one of those, yeah. Man, I used to be a jerk.

SPEAKER_05 18:28

I've been like, how do I get out of this unit?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, that's pretty bad. I think about it.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

But like it was it was kind of one of those like setting the expectations, like from day one, you know, it's like I go down a laundry list of um expectations and and whatnot. And one of the things I'm like, hey, listen, I you know there's nothing wrong with getting something wrong. Um, it's it's fine, it's okay. Um, but I'm you know, you get something wrong, let's learn something from it, I'll train you, you're good to go. You get something wrong again, I get it. I've been there, we're gonna do it again. You know, we'll help you um overcome and learn. I said, but if you do it a third time, like now I'm gonna micromanage the process, you know, and that is like straight up like told that that was like a standard thing I've told everybody, and so like they knew like everybody knew from day one. Like literally, when I first at the commanders like um welcome, yeah, like there's a there's a few things that I go down the list, you know, and that's that's one of them, and so people knew what to expect.

SPEAKER_05 19:35

Now, well, I would agree with you on that because I used to say, like, I you know, it can happen once, it can happen twice, but this isn't baseball, this isn't no three strikes you're out of that second one, that's it. Like, I can I guess it is three strikes because then once you hit that third strike, that's it. Like, you know, now it's gonna go to a whole different level. So I guess I can feel you on that one. Yeah. So how does it impact performance? How does micromanage impact performance? Well, to me, it's like, well, if it's if you're gonna do it all yourself, then like why do I need to? It's almost like no matter what I do, if you take control, you change it, you it's almost like I'm just giving you something just for the sake of giving it to you, but you're just gonna do something totally different. So why put forth a whole lot of effort? Why have any real creativity? True, any of that stuff when it's just gonna be like, Well, you're just gonna do it how you want to do it, or tell me how to do it. So why do I need to why do I need to really try?

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, so I think you're right, like it breeds like like you're exactly what you're saying, it breeds an environment of inaction and just like staleness and and laziness, right? Not that their person is lazy, but like it's like, oh well, you know, T's gonna tell me how to do it, so okay. And so it just doesn't motivate people to to think, you know, be proactive and think outside the box because they're afraid that they're gonna be shot down and asked why you're doing it this way.

SPEAKER_05 21:02

So yeah, yeah. I mean, because it's almost like the leader's way is always the best way, and so if it's like if you know what's best, what am I gonna do? But I can see how, as far as performance, though, a leader's actions can then impact, like, what's let's say it's performance review time, and now it's like, well, you are barely average, or maybe you were below average. It's like, well, every time I tried to go above and beyond, you're like, no, do it this way, no, do it that way, no. So then is it my fault that I can't excel, or is it your fault? And you don't realize that you're that type of person, you know, talking about someone that's a micromanager because it's now reflecting on my performance. Yeah, I can never shine, so to speak, because you're constantly like, oh no, do it this way. No, why did you do it? This is not what I expected.

unknown 21:59

That's

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Interesting. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 22:03

And I don't know if that's a thing, but I can see it could be a thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah, no, I agree with you. I'm thinking something different. So if you embrace a micromanager, right? So you essentially like, all right, how do you want me to do it? Got you. And now from now on, it's gonna do it this way. Like that manager might think the world of you now, right? Because he essentially created an image of himself or herself. And now it's like, yes, now T gets it, you know. He's doing everything like I would do it, like I would do, and it's like he, yeah, he's great because it's now you see what I'm saying. So it's a mirror, it's a mirror, and so I wonder if that would be something positive for performance because, like, it's like T's doing his everything like I would do, it's not his fault, you know.

SPEAKER_05 22:53

So he's doing you probably it probably would, and you would probably have to play that game as long as you were with that person and keep trying to move up until you finally became maybe their peer, and tell him, you know, you're really chewed up. Like I couldn't stand working for you, you know. But you gotta you gotta take it.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I mean, it's almost I I don't want to say it's I don't want to say it's manipulation, but I mean No, you're playing by the rules of that game.

SPEAKER_05 23:27

Yeah, but I you know, and I guess for some, and there's plenty, I'm sure there's people out there, and if people are listening and you have a micromanager and you're like, hey, I do exactly that, and it has done wonders for me, please share it. But I can see for those that want to like let me let me loose, let me show you what I can do. And it just becomes frustrating because they're like, I can't like truly you know share my creativity, I can't offer a different spin on it, I can't anything. Like, I I'll tell you, I remember working for this company, and the chief performance officer always delivered the trainings, um, because that's what he did. Because he knew everything, which he did, you know, he was very knowledgeable. But then one time, me and a uh a director uh so he had a director under him, and then me and another guy. So we said, Hey, how about we leave the training? He was like, Okay, so provide prior to the training starting, we had a little speaker, we had music going, you know, everybody's you know getting loose, like, all right, we had we made it fun. And afterwards, he did not like the way we ran it at all.

unknown 24:36

Really?

SPEAKER_05 24:36

However, the feedback was this is the best training we've ever had, and it's like the content was still there, but our delivery was different. We made it more and more interactive, and people embraced it more, and they're like, Man, can't wait for the next one, just because we made it just more lively and it wasn't just kind of dry and old school, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

You did not like it because it was just yeah, but it's like when the feedback came, he's just like, Okay, I guess you'll have that one, you know, let's suck that person was pissed because it's like I've been doing this forever, you know, like simple, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:22

But at the same time, you know, sometimes I think when people have been doing it for a long time, there's a risk with that because you could, you know, if the business is changing, like that same company, same department, we ended up working our ourselves out of a job because it became too prescriptive, it became to do it exactly this way, there wasn't room for flexibility. Yeah, and basically the team, you know, it got to a point where you just put too many layers on and to the point where the business was just like, you know what, we got it from here, and they just stopped engaging, and then you have a department of people sitting for months not being called to do anything, months, yeah. And for me, I ended up exiting and going to a different department, and then eventually that that that department just dissolved.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, if nobody's engaging, they're not bringing any value, right? Yeah, it's like it's just a waste of money.

SPEAKER_05 26:24

So I think we've covered this. Like, can micromanagement ever be necessary? Well, I mean, of course, we talked about like if you got newer people on the team, maybe you're up against the gun timeline, it has to be the delivery, it has to be a certain way, it's like we don't have time for that. Um, so I think stepping in and kind of giving more oversight and saying, like, no, it has to be like this, the formatting has to be, it just becomes very, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Because no, you're right. I mean, like, the other thing is I think people forget that, like, you know, hopefully a good manager will take your product, give you credit if if it turns out well, but they own the failure, right? They're not gonna a good manager is not gonna go back and say, yeah, T and Larry fucked it up. Like, they're just that's that's a piss poor manager, in my opinion. If so, if they do that, right? And so because they're gonna take the failure, like they're really they're they're really invested in this, you know. And so so that's the other thing you gotta keep in mind, like, you know, because I'm gonna go represent this as my own, you know, uh, especially if it fails. But you know, if we do well, I'm gonna give all the credit to the team, but yeah, but it's ultimately like my name, you know, and I get that.

SPEAKER_05 27:47

I mean, yeah, for sure, 100%. I agree with you. So, how should employees respond? And I think we just kind of touched on that. I mean, it's twofold. Either the employee can mirror and say, okay, and just kind of play by those rules. And I mean, I know how you work, so I'm gonna just go with the flow and take it and I'm good with it. Or you could have those that just get frustrated and say, like, look, like I can do this, and then it just becomes you're just butting heads, and it just becomes where the employee seems like they're not performing because they're not doing it exactly as the manager would, and the manager not recognizing that they have, especially if they're not just doing it to one, but they're doing it to all, and they gotta be involved with everything, and it's just like look, you need to fall back. Um, so I think it could go where it's just like, look, I'm not gonna do it, and you could lose people, and you can learn from everything.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

I think there's another approach for somebody that is way more mature than me, because I don't know if I'd be able to do this, but like I think you know, there's a right way to confront the manager, right? And that, like, you know, I see like I'm trying to do, you know, I'm trying to be proactive and do things, but I notice like there's a lot of things that you know you you engage in and telling me how to do, you know. Um, so I would love to learn like how what can I do to, you know, what what do I need to do to uh or learn to understand like maybe how you want something specifically done, you know, so that way I could kind of take the ball and run with it more often without having it to come back to you and align so frequently, right? Um, and I would spin it as like, you know, save you time, it'll save me time so that way I understand your guidance up front or something to that effect. Because you want to uh imagine it's never gonna admit to micromanaging, maybe I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 29:52

But but let me ask you this as you're talking, would you would you be would do you think it's unreasonable for an employee to say startup would say, hey, I recognize or I see that there's a lot of micromanagement of things that I'm doing? That's not the way to start. Is there a way that we can kind of that I can help you, that I can maybe do something differently, or something where we can minimize that? Would that be rude?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

I think when you start off as micro with that word micromanagement, yeah, that would be that would be an offensive word. Offensive, and then that not offensive, like it's it's it's kind of like a verbal attack offensive, right? Um, and that's what you got to be careful because once you start with that, the the shields go up automatically. You're like, I'm not micromanager, you know? So it's you gotta be very mindful like the sequence and and the actual words you use.

SPEAKER_05 30:49

So if they said I'm not micromanagement, what are you talking about? And you're like you constantly want to want to know what time I'm looking clocked in. You you're looking at when my icon goes yellow. Uh you you want me to copy you on every single uh is this do you not define that as micromanagement? Would that be true?

SPEAKER_01 31:10

If somebody's is as petty as me, I'd be like, let's let's let's see what does the regular what does the book say? You know, how long you're supposed to be on, you know, like yeah, you got some petty ass, you know, managers. It would be like a back and forth argument.

SPEAKER_05 31:26

Let me tell you, when you talk about petty, I worked at this one company, and literally the manager I reported to monitored the icon to see if it was green or if it was red. But if it was yellow, oh, I mean, she would literally, because we were in cubes, she would literally walk out of her office, walk to your desk and not open, not knock, but peek through to see if you're on your computer, if you're actually doing something. Sometimes she would, you know, just pull open the door and just walk right up next to you to kind of see what you're working on.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Really?

SPEAKER_05 32:03

Yeah, because she had never been in charge of people and she thought this is was the way to go. So she would do that, monitor the screen time, she would, you know, see where you are one time. And me and my buddy, we would we would just drive her mad because we were not too far from the domain. So we would literally, and we had work phones or our numbers, she she had them because we were getting paid for it. So we would literally go to the domain and just be walking around shopping and stuff, and then we come back, and because the building was kind of big, she'd be like, I was looking for you guys, where were you? Like, we were here, we were we were down on the other side of the building. I didn't I didn't see you well. We were here, and she'd be like, and we were like, Well, I didn't see you. It was like, Well, why didn't you call us? You have our phone number, why didn't you call? But she would just walk around, walk, and I'm like, first of all, if you got enough time to do that, you don't have any work to do, clearly. Yeah, and she would be like, Oh, it doesn't work like that. It's like, so then why are we getting paid to have a phone if you if it doesn't work like that?

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Oh, she hated it, but she was she younger.

SPEAKER_05 33:12

No, she was older, she's probably in her really mid-50s, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Wow, because I feel like younger generations do not like calling anybody on the phone.

SPEAKER_05 33:23

I was like, Oh, maybe that's what it is, but no, no, she wanted you to just sit at your desk, and they were and her and the person above her were more of the mindset of you know, be happy you have a job, uh, even if there's nothing going on, just sit at your desk and just sit there, and that's it. Yeah, so yeah, yeah. Why the hell am I gonna do that? Like, are you crazy? Um okay. So, what's the difference between oversight and control? So, I think we kind of touched on that for me. Is like, if you give more guidance and oversight versus I'm do it my way and do it like this, to me, that's the biggest difference because you can continuously give guidance and feedback and maybe more frequent check-ins versus like no, no, no, no, no. I need this, this needs to be like that, this needs to be, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, so it's like oversized like, hey, how's it going? How's that project going versus you know, how did you do that? Or are you doing this exact like this step one, two, three, four, right? So just like a simple status check versus like the methods, how how you're executing, maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:36

Yeah, and wanting it to look a certain way, or you say, Hey, develop this for me, and they develop it, and now you're just picking it apart. Oh, do it this way, do it that way, that needs to be this, that needs to be, and it's like, is something gonna happen if it's not exactly this way? Because if it's one thing if a like a manager says, Hey, we're gonna report to some higher level person. Well, there's an expectation, it needs to be a certain way, so we need maybe the visual we need, so small a little bit of text, we but again that can be established up front versus just go ahead and create whatever now we gotta go and edit it all and cut it all. Like you just wasted a bunch of time, but yeah, I don't know. So, how does trust play into this? Well, you mentioned that too. Um I mean, I guess I don't know because you said trust is in maybe more so the unknown, like the unknown versus it being a negative thing, and you've done something to lose my trust.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Right. Now, I mean, I've mentioned I guess both now, you know, if somebody, if you you know, two strikes, now I'm micromanaging you because I don't trust you doing it. Like you clearly demonstrated you can't do this correctly twice, even after training or support. So that's the the negative trust, right? Um, then the the the not so negative trust is just like I don't know your capabilities yet, you know. So I just want to make sure, like, oh, are you gonna be okay with this and and and whatnot? Because a lot of people though honestly they don't know how to do something and they should then struggle and struggle and struggle, which is fine, you're learning, but you know, then you can't use that as an excuse for delayed or late delivery.

SPEAKER_05 36:25

No, I think that's where you have to be clear and say that. Because to me, as soon as you said, like, look, you even if you you got hired in, you're new, but maybe there's something you just haven't you don't know how to approach it yet. Yeah, you know how like the end result, but like how do I start? Yes, like you know, what is that expectation? And I think to go in there as an employee and say, Hey, look, I'm just struggling with getting this out. Can we talk it through? Do you mind? A good manager to me would say, Yes, let's go ahead and do that. Because prior to game day, it should be multiple practices, yes, and practices where we're showing that's where you're delivering some sort of work product that can be critiqued and refined over and over again to the point where now you, when it's game time, you know how to execute. Yes, and I think that is what leaders should try to do is have those practices. That's what they're there for. Let them test out work products and get until it gets to the point where it's like, okay, you're ready for the big leagues. I can trust you to deliver because we've ran practices. Yeah. And that's not to say that now people that like maybe listening, that's not to say that employee may not drop, something may not falter, or maybe it doesn't come across, Chris, because maybe the leader is having a the whoever you're presenting to having a bad day, or maybe just well, what about this one little piece of maybe they're a nitpicker? But that's when you go back, reassure the employee you delivered well. You know, it was a it was a it was a rough day, but guess what? You did a good job, lesson learned, keep that in mind. Go back because you could present to different people, and it's always could be it could be a moving target. But at the end of the day, you know you have a solid work product, your leader knows that they stand behind it, you're good. True. So, how do leaders self-correct if they're how have you self-corrected when you've been a micromanager team? Have you self-corrected? Or you're just like, this is what you gotta get.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

No, actually, um I didn't realize it until somebody told me, you know, it's it's one of those weird things, right? Like, I think some micromanagers, especially young ones, don't know they're micromanagers, right? Because like, you know, you gotta either I think I realized it through a uh uh a survey, right? Um, where they're like they're giving feedback on my performance supportants are. And I was like, oh smack. I was like, people see me as a micromanager, right? And then like I've heard it one other time, I was like, I was like, oh, you know, that's kind of like a a punch to the gut when you realize like you're not perfect, you know, yeah, and like fuck, I was like, I'm a micromanager, and so that was really step number one is being aware that you're a micromanager and you have these tendencies or traits. Um and then once I realized that, like I just I became hyper-aware, you know, and so always being mindful. Um, I had to get confirmation, right? I went to at that time my first aren't or somebody else, uh, my NCO. I was like, Am I a micromanager? He goes, Yes, you are. Positive, you know, it's it's honest feedback. And I at that point, it's like, ah shit, like, all right, it's not just because the you know the employees or soldiers are mad at me because I made them do something. No, it's legit. Um, and then every time you know I've I've given a task, I just try to be aware and just let them do their thing. Um and also what I've tried to do now is say, okay, you know, you have this task, you know, talk me through how you're gonna do it, you know. And once I understand their plan, I'm like, all right, it the plan makes sense to me, like we should be good. Um, but like I would still interject if I see a possible risk in a plan. I was like, listen, I think this may not work out well, this step that you had in mind. Um, and if I had time, I would let them let them ride with it, you know. I was like, okay. Uh, but if if not, then I'll say, okay, no, I can't I can't have you do it this way. Just this is very, you know, give very specific directions. But um, a lot of times it worked out in my favor when I let them do their thing, if I have some time, because one it works out in my favor when they actually do a good job, and like, oh shit, like this was pretty good, you know. And two, if they do it a bad job, it works out in my favor as well. Well, one, because I have time to react because usually I'd give myself, but also now I have their trust, you know. It's like, ah, T told me like this is a risk, or this is this may fail, you know. So you get a few of those, now they start trusting you and like in your guidance, which works out well for you as well.

SPEAKER_05 41:40

I mean, that's really good when you when you when you mentioned someone telling you like a higher up saying hey, and you asked them and they gave you the feedback. I wonder though, when there's a leader that maybe they're learning from the leader above them. Like maybe there's no one in the immediate chain that could say, hey, you need to like like if I'm an employee, my manager's micromanager, but theirs is yeah, so it might be maybe fairly kind of mid-level, mid-career. I don't know, maybe they haven't been there that long, and they're getting it from above, and they think that's the right way to do. And so that's true. Who do you go to? Because it's like you can't go above, you know, it's like, how do you navigate out of that? Do you just keep playing the? I mean, I guess that's the ultimate thing is you keep playing the game or you leave, or you find an ally, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Somebody that could talk to that manager, and he's like, hey, this guy's really micromanaging us. Um, and so a lot of times you may have that you know relationship with somebody that has the ear of the boss, and so that would be good.

SPEAKER_05 42:51

That's a good point. Yeah, to hopefully do that. Okay, so what systems reduce micromanagement? And I actually had to look this one up. Yeah, you want to go through? Yeah, so one of the things it says, which we are very, very familiar with, so it says workplace micromanagement is generally reduced by systems that shift focus from monitoring how work gets done to evaluating what gets achieved.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Ah, I like it.

SPEAKER_05 43:20

Yeah, so the outcomes, which should be the case. So it says by emphasizing clear outcomes, which I just mentioned, autonomy and asynchronous communication, organizations can build trust and eliminate the need for constant supervision. So keys, key systems for reducing micromanagement, number one, OKRs, objective and key results. The goal setting framework aligns company objective with measurable individual results. So instead of taking failing processes, managers define the what and why, and pairing employees to choose the how.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

And you monitor it through KPIs.

SPEAKER_05 44:04

KPIs, yes, definitely. I think, I think that's huge. Out of everything, they meant mentioned automated time track tracking, asynchronous communication, delegation, scope setting, which is things we said doing stuff upfront, outcome-based, outcome-based performance check-ins, which we've talked about too. And I think if you have KPIs and you just however frequently you're monitoring them, hopefully at a frequency where you have time to react. And when you think about a run chart, and I think it's five points in a row before you react. So if they're starting to dip and team members have a part to play, now it's like you're just focusing on that. What are we doing about that? But I think that's why I always mention this that that KPIs is one of the easiest things to do, and one of the hardest things to manage. Because you can develop them, get the timeline, um, measuring over time and get your goal. But then it's like when something goes wrong, how do you react to that? When you see that you're starting to not make it, what do you do? And to me, it's then saying, What is the problem? getting a clear problem definition, and then recognizing like you got to a root cause and clear actions that are going to change it. And that's where people I think don't know how to do that. Where it's just like, Well, what did you try? And they just keep trying random things until finally something sticks. You're just throwing stuff at the wall, yeah. And that wastes a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

I like it. Oh, I like it. Yeah, okay, KPIs.

SPEAKER_05 45:47

Yeah, I mean, bottom line, just hold hold people to that. But I don't know. I really would like to hear from people to you know, are you dealing? Have you for one, have you dealt with the micromanager? How did that go for you? You know, how did you navigate that situation? And then have you been a micromanager? And then are you still a micromanager? Do you want to? Or did you recognize it early on in your career and maybe make an adjustment? You know, and I think you know, when we think about how to reduce it and building trust, you know, ask yourself, reflect, you know, why are you doing it? Why do you feel like to me that has to be exhausting sometimes?

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:33

The size of your team. You know, I can see if you got you know two or three people, but if you got a big team, how in the world are you doing that? And then yeah, think about this too. Like, imagine if it is because of a lack of trust. Well, that doesn't look good when you, as an employer, as a manager, are targeting one person or two people. Oh, that's true, and you're not doing it for others because now they can just be like, you're picking on me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, you become a target.

SPEAKER_05 47:06

That's oh so that's a very good point. Be careful out there. Yeah, you know, tread lightly.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

I'm a recovering control, micromanager.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

My name is T. I'm a micromanager.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Oh man, that's scary those days.

SPEAKER_05 47:34

All right, well, I guess we'll call it right there. So thanks for tuning in at Command the Corporate. If today's episode gave you value, you know what you can do. Share with a colleague or teammate who's ready to step into leadership. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. We are on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts, where you can learn more leadership insights and resources. And until next time, lead with clarity, lead with uh purpose. And always remember mission first, people always, and we will catch you next time.