Season 2 Episode 6: Should Pastors Attend Seminary with Dr. Travis Montgomery

Welcome to the Small Town Church Podcast, the weekly podcast where we discuss all aspects of being in a small-town church. Whether you are a member, on staff, or have just begun attending a church in a small town, this is the podcast for you. 

On this week's episode we discuss the importance of pastors continuing their education through seminary with special guest Dr. Travis Montgomery.

Dr. Montgomery holds a B.A. in Christian Ministry from Ozark Christian College, an M.Div. from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, as well as a Ph.D. in Biblical Theology from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. 

Dr. Montgomery is currently an Assistant Professor of Christian Studies and the Assistant Dean of Global Campus at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is also one of the pastors of Northside Fellowship, a church plant in the Kansas City area.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Article twelve of the Baptist Faith in Message 2000 reads Christianity is the faith of enlightenment and intelligence. In Jesus Christ abide all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. All sound learning is, therefore, a part of our Christian heritage. The new birth opens all human faculties and creates a thirst for knowledge. Moreover, the cause for education in the kingdom of Christ is coordinate with the causes of missions and general benevolence, and should receive along with these the liberal support of the churches. An adequate system of Christian education is necessary to a complete spiritual program for Christ's people. In Christian education, there should be a proper balance between academic freedom and academic responsibility. Freedom in any orderly relationship is of human life is always limited and never absolute. The freedom of a teacher in a Christian school, college, or seminary is limited by the preeminence of Jesus Christ, by the authoritative nature of the scriptures, and by the distinct purpose for which the school exists. Welcome to the Small Town Church Podcast, the weekly podcast where we discuss all aspects of being in a small town church. Whether you are a member, on staff, or have just begun attending a church in a small town, this is the podcast for you. Welcome back to the Small Town Church Podcast. We are in season two, and this season is all about the pastor, the overseer, the person who we see as the leader in the church. And we are excited to be back, and we are moving right through season two. If you have not had a chance to listen to the other episodes, we invite you to do so. We've covered everything from sim uh uh sermon prep and delivery, uh the episode on counseling um that has just aired. We hope that that you found that helpful. And uh and today we've got a really good one lined up and we're excited. Um I'm joined as always by my uh assistant, or not assistant, my my co-host. Uh he is I'm much more his assistant than I am his. Um my co-host, Brad Borgren. I'm Zach Leonard, and as always, Brad, it's good to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, thanks for having me, and I'll I'll be happy to assist. Martivist is the hero of my show.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

That's great. Well, um, this episode is another one of our interview episodes. We told you at the outgo of the um on the onset of this season that we are going to be uh doing several uh uh episodes where we interview people who probably have a better grasp of the subject matter matter than we do. So we uh we are inviting not probably absolutely right. Um we are we have decided to invite on uh a man who has quickly become um uh almost a mentor of mine in a way, um, academically. I'm currently in in seminary at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, theological seminary, and um this man uh for me needs no introduction, but um for those of y'all that aren't familiar with MBTS, um, we'll introduce him now. This is uh the assistant professor of Christian Studies and the Assistant Dean of Global Campus, Dr. Travis Montgomery. Dr. Montgomery, we are excited that you were on with us today to talk about seminary.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Well, yeah, thanks, Zach. I mean, it's been awesome to get to know you and to learn about this podcast. Um I'll I I'll mention a little bit more soon, I'm sure, but being from small town, uh I I love that this is happening and I'm glad to be part of it.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Great. Well, um, why don't you uh just kind of take us a quick second and maybe uh give us kind of the 35,000-foot view of how you ended up at seminary, how you ended up um making that something that you do more closer to full time, you know, um instead of uh instead of other people that maybe may have a uh they just go to get their MDiv or their MDiv and their PhD. And you you kind of hung around a little bit, so why don't you kind of tell us your story and and kind of tell us what all is involved in that?

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yeah, well, you've got it right. I mean, I just kind of showed up and hung around and they haven't kicked me out yet, is really what happened. But um, but I was pastoring in a small town, depending on how you define it, much bigger than the town I grew up in, uh, a little bit smaller than the town I'm in now here in Kansas City. And I I was pastoring there. I had I had attended a Bible college and knew that I loved learning about the Bible and theology. And people had all these questions, and even when they didn't have questions, I would read the Bible and try to preach and teach it, and I would have questions, and then I would try to make decisions and help people, and I had even more questions. And so I began to attend Midwestern Seminary online at that time as a pastor. And uh to long story short, um, I was uh very green, uh younger than I am now, believe it or not, uh, as most of these stories go, and uh felt very much that I needed more training, more leadership, and to sit under another pastor who'd been doing it for a lot longer. And so that played as big a factor as anything else in my moving with my wife to Kansas City to study residentially. We just hit basically a crossroads with ministry, and so came to finish up and got done with one degree and uh had a part-time job here at the school, learned how a school works. And it's one thing to say, I want to go to school. It's another thing to say I like how schools work behind the scenes. That's that's certainly not for everybody. Sure. But I I enjoyed that and uh got some good work doing that. And so as I continued on in my studies, uh, even as I helped to plant a church here in Kansas City, uh where I'm one of the pastors, I kept enjoying the work behind the scenes that makes the seminary run. And so now my role is highly administrative. You mentioned assistant dean. So what I do is I lead our online studies department that's uh graduate, so master's degrees and bachelor's degrees for people around the globe, largely here in the United States. Uh we we love the Midwest, but we're not confined to the Midwest. And I I see that as really an extension of the church's ministry. A bunch of churches have band together to try to do this well. We could all try to do it on our own, but we're just better when we're together, especially in things like missions, church planting, and theological education. And so that's what we've done. And so I get to play a part in kind of making sure that's happening according to the will of those churches, according to their doctrine, according to their mission, in a way that honors them and uses the resources that they've provided. And more than that, of course, that the Lord gives. And so I love doing that, but I also love being a teacher. I love I love helping pastors and pastors in training and other teachers and ministry leaders learn more about their Bibles, learn more about doctrine, learn more about how to apply that to wherever they are. And so that's what I do. I teach Bible and theology type classes, always with an eye to how do I explain this to somebody who's got no formal training, who will probably never get formal training, uh, who's just trying to navigate the economy or go through a rough patch in their marriage. So that's that's what I do and and why I love it, and I'm really grateful to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

That's great. Um one of the things that that it's it's funny, I tell people in every semester that I we have to do the um the discussion post that where we introduce ourselves, right? And it's every single semester, it's always just some form of what I've already said 14 times in the classes that the other ones that I've had, but I actually picked Midwestern because of their big Spurgeon tie. And for those of y'all that have listened um to to this uh this uh show for longer than five seconds know I'm a big Spurgeon fan. And so it was it was kind of just an an aside that I ended up picking Midwestern from one of the other um SBC seminaries. Um but after I picked it, I I realized that the the mantra, the motto for the church is is it really inculcates all of your seminary and I and I really enjoy that fact is that you are training up seminarians to then go and be for the church in all they do. Um Brad, why don't you uh knock out this first question here and and we'll we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah, again, Dr. Montgomery, thanks for for being with us. And you know, you don't have to convince me and Zach. You know, we uh I I went to Southwestern. I'm I'm a product of well, I grew up in Arkansas, but um Texas was nearby and Southwestern loom large, and so I'm I'm a double graduate there. So you don't have to try to persuade us. We we've drank the Kool-Aid on why uh theological education is important. Um but for others who may be listening, you know, and especially it seems like on a yearly, if not even a monthly basis, there's just more and more information and more and more good resources available. Uh, why do you believe that seminary, either in person or online, uh is still just an invaluable resource for those who who want to lead and serve in the local church?

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Man, I love that question. I love even the way you framed it because there's really kind of two battles you have to fight a little bit. When I say battles, people come to seminary, uh SBC seminaries at large generally are growing, the Westerns are growing. And nevertheless, there's always the question, but but why? And do I have to? And you know, Baptists, especially and and a lot of uh independent autonomous churches don't require a certain level of seminary training to be ordained. Uh individual churches, of course, call their pastors and decide on the qualifications. And and I I love that. That's the way I think it ought to be. That's my conviction. Um, but there really are two things to answer. One are why get a theological education? And the other is why get a formal theological education rather than just being an avid reader, right? Um and uh to answer the first question, you guys know the answer and you feel this, but it came out a little bit even in my own story, right? Because anyone who seriously wants to help people is gonna come up with questions, and any right-minded pastor, anybody who's got genuine faith, is gonna gravitate toward the scripture as the answer for that question. And I know we all agree with that, I'm sure everybody listening would agree with that. We want to find our answer in the scriptures, but uh, if you're honest with yourself, and I I I hope we all are, I'm gonna read scripture and I'm not exactly gonna always know how this relates to this issue. You think of like emerging cultural questions that are not explicitly addressed in scripture, and sometimes people will play off that. They'll say, Well, Jesus never said anything about AI or whatever, whatever the argument is. And of course we say, Well, yeah, just the same reason that he didn't talk about you know space travels, because it wasn't happening, so it wasn't relevant. Sure. Uh, nevertheless, these scriptures are sufficient for us, and so we need the wisdom to read them well and apply them, not just to cultural issues, not just to people's theological curiosities, um, but because we we really believe that we're supposed to be shaped by the word of God, equipped by the word of God. And from that outgrowth comes our study of theology and doctrine. And of course, as soon as we start doing that, we're talking now about history. And of course, as soon as we do that, we're thinking how do we apply this in the local church? So we're talking about applied theology and ministry. And so, really, from the the fountain of studying the Bible, which all of us should agree is is foundational to Christian ministry, um, from that fountain flow all of these disciplines that have a history, that have a terrain. And so I like to help people think of it as like studying a map versus going on an adventure. Um, we really just don't want to graduate a bunch of map studiers who don't ever go on adventures. Um, but there are a lot of people out there on adventures that don't have a good guide and don't know how to read a map. And C.S. Lewis has something very much like this as he's talking about theology. He's talking about uh how you need to navigate the sea, and it really helps to have read a map. And so that's how he talks about the study of theology. That's how I think of it. So, why do theological education? Well, uh, because if you're gonna go on this adventure, you need to know that there are well-worn paths that you can follow, that there are easy mistakes that you can avoid that maybe other people have made and they can tell you about ahead of time. Um, that there are good examples that you can learn from and imitate. That's just how education works, but especially that's how theological education works. So we all know that the answer is in the Bible. Uh, if we're being honest with ourselves, we know that we need help to learn to interpret it well and apply it wisely and communicate it effectively. And of course, that's happening in our local churches. We're being taught by leaders, pastors, examples. And nevertheless, um, very few pastors can be expert in all of the things that your seminary professors can be expert in. And so, really, a seminary at its best is just a bunch of churches cooperating together to allow people the time, energy, room to become experts so that we can all get as much training as possible. So that's why a formal theological education, uh, it never, never, never, as opposed to actually living out your Christian faith, never, ever, ever apart from the church, but as an extension of your church's ministry. And by the way, when you attend seminary, be in a church and learn just as much there as you do anywhere else, if not more. Um, that's the first question. But the second question, I think it's really relevant, especially in our information age, um, even just thinking about AI, and I can just ask it, what does you know, my favorite theologian, what does Charles Spurgeon think about XYZ? Maybe Zach would you know take take one of our discussion prompts for our class and say, how would Charles Spurgeon answer this? And that would be fascinating. I once asked um uh what how would Redknock redneck Thomas Aquinas answer this question? And guys, you don't have to like Thomas Aquinas, and and and I don't mean any disrespect by the word redneck. Uh trust me, uh, if you knew where I grew up, but uh man, that's a fun prompt. You could throw that in there. So why do I need to pay money for someone else to do it in a less interesting fashion, right? That that would kind of be the question. And my answer to that is always that there the map is there because the terrain is there, but algorithms are not curriculum. An algorithm is meant to keep your attention on what it thinks will keep your attention, and so what happens is if you show an interest in one topic, your algorithm, uh yes, your AI, but also your YouTube. Um, also just the people you follow on social media who like to quote to quote whatever theologian. You you can learn a lot from those things. I've learned a lot from those things. Um, but but there's two serious dangers that you might not even realize are dangers. And the first one is you're just gonna get a lot of the same all the time because the whole job of the algorithm is to keep you going, and it's not gonna experiment with things it's not sure you like, it's just gonna keep giving you what you clicked on. And a curriculum is meant to show you the whole map, even the corners that you don't think matter, so that when you're out on that adventure, you've you've read about this before, you've seen that part of the map before. And of course, in the Lord's providence, you might have to answer all sorts of questions, you might have to deal with all sorts of issues in ministry that uh you weren't interested in before. That's been the case for me. Things that I really never thought of that as a very interesting subject, but all of a sudden it really matters because I'm trying to help somebody in my church. And I again I don't just mean they have some obscure theological question and I can just tell them to move on with their life, but maybe it really is relevant for them and their growth and their discipleship. Well, all of a sudden I am interested because I love that person. The the curriculum is meant to give you the whole map to get you acquainted with all of those areas of interest and and importance. The algorithm is just going to give you more of what it knows that you like. So that's the first danger, is that you might not be acquainted with everything you need to be acquainted with. Um the second danger is that what we think of as being self-taught usually uh falls into the category of passive learning. Um, so not only does it narrow my focus on something that maybe is important, but but I miss a lot of other important things. Also, a lot of times I can feel like I learned it or I know it because I watched someone else or I read someone else, or there was a really interesting video that was uh perfectly designed to keep my tiny attention span. And I didn't ever have to try very hard to learn it. And so you've you've met people like this, maybe you've been people like this. I I'm sure I have before, where I just kind of can regurgitate what someone else has said. But when you ask me a question, you throw me a curveball, you you kind of try to get me to put it in my own words, all of a sudden it's like maybe I didn't know that thing as well as I did. Maybe I got the styrofoam cutout version of that thing and not the real solid thing. And passive learning will do that to you. There's a way to be a passive learner in a classroom and just sit there and don't pay attention. Um, but when you actually have to write things and you actually have to get assessed on that writing and critiqued on your arguments, then you're gonna grow, you're gonna learn. Yeah. One of the ways that we assess the mastery of a topic or an ability is by making people re-contextualize it. In other words, take what you learn and put it in new words, apply it to a new situation that we haven't spoon fed you, and then we'll see if you really know how to do it. Um one analogy I like to use for this, I think about this a lot, is that I will toot my own horn for a second and tell you in high school, not now, but in high school, mind you, uh, I was like a champion uh squatter. So weightlifting, uh I could I I broke some some school records doing that. In part that's just because I'm like a really short guy and that that makes it a little easier. But what I noticed was even though I was fantastic at this one thing, I was generally not in the top 10% of athletic people uh in in that room, maybe not in the top 25% of athletic people. And the athletic people were a little smaller than me, they didn't have quite as strong as legs, maybe they were taller than me, they couldn't squat as much as me. But there was another lift, it was the power clean, that all of them would smoke me at. And what I realized was this squat gets at just such a specific part of your body that it's not a very good indicator of your just all around athletic ability, but power clean is. And so, and the thing that mattered, uh actually performing athletically, I was falling behind. And it's because I had the wrong indicator of my athleticism. Well, it's the same sort of thing. If I can soapbox about XYZ interesting theology topic, or I can maybe I'm not really into theology, but I can preach and teach really effectively and wincibly, and people really love to listen to me talk. I'm a good orator, or I'm just like a really fantastic leadership guru, and I just make great calls and manage people well. Those are all important things. But what seminary is meant to do, what formal training is meant to do, is one teach me the whole map, not just the parts I'm most interested in. Um, but also it is meant to work in me the skills that I need to target the muscles and the movements that are actually gonna matter when it comes time to serve people, to teach, to preach, to disciple, to counsel, to make hard decisions and answer complex questions. The algorithm, even just reading a nice book, uh may not always stretch me in that way. So you gotta read, you should keep learning. I learned from all those sources. I learned from them while I was in seminaries. Since I've been done with formal theological education, I still learn from them. But uh in actual education, a formal school education just can't be beat. There's a reason we've been doing it for thousands of years. Um, and it's because it gives you this well-rounded idea of the content that's gonna matter, but it also gives you a well-rounded exercise of your intellectual muscles, and that's really what's gonna count in ministry. That's so great.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Um, so we're gonna change directions just a tiny bit, but not that much. And I'm going to ask you the proverbial um seminary Apple versus I um Android uh question. Um, I realize asking you to tell us which degree plan we should pick is like asking which one is your favorite kid. So um let's say that you have as as everyone has listened to you on that answer. Pastors that are listening that have not gone to seminary, have they're ready to go. Which direction, in your estimation, and I realize you're not going to just say take this, but is there a route that you think uh pastors should look at if they're looking at a graduate degree, or is it largely dependent on where they're at? Because I know small town churches, they're going to be a little bit different than if you're serving at a very large-scale church that may have multiple pastors. If you're just the one guy on staff or one of two guys on staff, it's gonna serve uh it's gonna have its different set of challenges. So could you kind of speak to a little bit about the thought process that should go in when trying to decide which direction to go regarding, you know, mdiv or maybe an MDiv with a uh with a concentration or something along those lines?

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah, absolutely. Um so uh I for what it's worth, I know many people are are in this boat, pastoring serving faithfully, uh, especially those who are in bivocational ministry, um like some of my really good friends who maybe don't have a bachelor's degree, maybe that they weren't interested in this sort of thing when it was time to go to college, they went and did something else, they weren't following the Lord, whatever. And so, you know, start there, of course. Um, but as as you're thinking about graduate programs. Seminary, master's degrees. Um, the M Div is the flagship, the Master of Divinity, and there's a reason for that. It is kind of the all-round toolkit. So there's sort of like three major parts of the curriculum. Uh, one part is what you just call like really laying the map out and think think about Bible theology, history, just having your survey type classes. Those are incredibly important. Um, and a good survey is gonna not just feed you much information, but also make you work and flex your muscles. Um, but that's that's the first part. The second part is that practical ministry toolkit, kind of a well-rounded understanding of the ministry of the church. Now, not everybody has the exact same ministry, not everybody getting an in-depth is called being pastor. And as y'all know, I mean, pastorates in different churches can look very different, but to be well-rounded for whatever comes, uh for maybe this ministry or maybe ministry in the future, or for ministry at this church now, or what ministry at this church might look like in 10, 20, 15 years, as I, as you know, Lord willing, it grows and there's more staff, or as uh uh population trends change and there's fewer staff. I mean, just having that well-rounded toolkit of practical ministry, administration, leadership, and those sorts of things. The last uh element that is really important in the MDiv are the biblical languages. I say last, but but in a lot of ways, you really ought to get started at the beginning with those biblical languages, Greek and Hebrew. Um, I don't know why we say Greek and Hebrew, not Hebrew and Greek. That's really just a reflex, but uh those those biblical languages, and we leave out Aramaic because that's only like a handful of chapters and it's complicated. Um, but nevertheless, we we study Hebrew and Greek because we want to be people who, as much as we can, can differentiate between what this commentary is saying and what that commentary is saying for ourselves, instead of just being at the mercy of our tools. And so we all have to use tools, and there are so many great tools out there that you're gonna learn how to use resources, scholarship, uh well-worn paths, like I said. Nevertheless, you gotta walk them yourself. And there might be times where the paths diverge and you've got to discern which way to go. And and so learning biblical Greek and learning biblical Hebrew are huge, and so that's a that's an important part of an MDiv. Uh, if ever there's an MDiv that does not have biblical Greek and Hebrew, I can just tell you where that institution's going. Um, that said, every institution has to think about where are people actually and what they want to learn. And so I'll just wrap up the MDiv conversation by saying it's the longest master's degree maybe of any discipline of any industry. Um if you go to Bible college, not everybody does, and you don't have to to do an MDiv, but if you go to Bible college and you get an MDiv and you do an evangelical seminary PhD, which is longer than like a British research PhD, you have gone to more school than a medical doctor.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Um so, and you know, I I don't know the last time I looked up salaries for medical doctors, but I don't think I make that. And so I've got a lot of school to do this, and it's just because I I need this knocked into my head as much as possible. Um, and because what could be more important to learn, right? Amen. I don't want a surgeon who kind of went to school, I don't want a surgeon who was never examined in a residency and actually worked underneath the the watchful eyes of someone else who knew what they were doing. So I want pastors who go to school and are studious and who have learned from other pastors and been affirmed by them. And so uh, nevertheless, we we have to also recognize you may not start there because you you may not know what the economy is gonna look like in two years, who does? Um, you may not know what your own life and responsibilities are gonna look like. And I was an advisor for online students before I did anything else here at the school. And I'm all the time talking to people, trying to think about okay, do I really need the endaver? Could I do a shorter degree? And so most seminaries do have shorter degrees, and we do. What we've tried to do is we've tried to make sure that those level up so that people who are not sure what the future is going to hold, who does know that, can get started with like a 45-hour degree or even a 36-hour degree that we we have our Master of Christian Studies. But if you do that degree and you decide I'll keep going, you can you can level up and get a longer degree, including like a 60-hour Master of Arts or a or the full MDiv, and you won't lose any credits. Now, uh there's some fine print there, so you'd have to talk to an advisor, but any of those shorter degrees, especially those 45-hour, like Master of Theological Studies or Master of Biblical Studies type degrees, um, you can put every single one of those credits toward like a master of divinity. And so whether someone does an emphasis or not, I I tend to say you know your ministry, you know your interests, you know your weak points. Uh you can kind of choose pretty freely what you think is best there. But the big question is do I need the short degree or want the long degree? And the good news is you can start with a short degree and you can know, okay, there is a way station here, there's a stopping point, there's an intermission here. And I know a lot of people, I see them every graduation uh who are getting the degree, walking, getting the shorter 45-hour degree, who tell me, yeah, I'm still going, I'm signed up already for next semester, I'll get the end did. But it was good to kind of have this locked in. And I did the exact same thing in college. I jumped around like crazy. That's its own story. I went to five different colleges, had no idea what I was doing, and uh was not very attentive to pastors and mentors who told me to figure out my life. And so at some point when I realized, hey, I could technically get an associate's degree this semester, even though I intended to keep going, I went ahead and locked it in and said, you know what, my history is pretty uh pretty peppered. I better just go ahead and get the degree that I've earned, and then of course I'll keep going and try to finish the bachelor's degree. And of course, jokes on me because here I am, you know, four degrees later or whatever. But but that's really a good way to go is to start out with a short degree with the intention from the beginning to go further. But I will say this the downside is if you're not taking the languages at the beginning, you're really not, you could squeeze a little bit more out of your Bible classes, out of your theology classes if you were learning Greek and Hebrew at the same time or if you had already learned them. And so the person who says, I really do think the innovative is for me, should just jump in. Uh, and if you get an emphasis, great, pick whatever you like, whatever interests you. Um, but the person who knows, I want the innovative, I've got the time, I think I've got the resources, let's do this, should just jump in and get started with the languages right away. But for many of us, that's not where we're at, or we need to be a little bit more uh incremental with our approach. And so those shorter degrees are meant to go into the longer degrees. Uh, we're not the only school that does that kind of thing, but but we were incredibly meticulous when we rearranged our programs. And this was about three years ago, we just did this, um, to be as thoughtful as possible. And I cannot tell you how many versions of how many documents and and literally hundreds of pages of work that we we put into that um so that people could uh make the most of their time and their resources. So that's a long answer to a pretty basic question, but I will say the MDIV is the pastoral flagship for a reason. There's nothing in there that you don't need. I'll say that. That's great. Um and nevertheless, people can level up because life is life and it's unpredictable, and we should all be flexible.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

That's awesome. Um, well, before I kick it over to Brad for our last question, um, I would like to say first, uh, you answering a basic question with a long answer just means you're good at seminary, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:46

Uh that's that's I think I think if I were grading myself, I'd call it fluff. That's that's my role.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

We're all we're all guilty of fluff sometimes, sure. Um I will say in to your point about the languages, um, I I will to be honest to our listeners, I was unsure of how I felt about having to learn another language. Um I and and Brad even in our in in Hebrew 1 when we sat down for our mentor conversation, I just I wasn't I I I don't know, I just had this weird idea of it's an old language, who really cares? And at the and at the very onset, in the very first lecture, Dr. Hearson actually said, This is the language that God chose to reveal his word to his people through. And that hit me like a ton of bricks. I didn't, I had to sit on it for a day or two actually and just mull over that statement because I had never thought enough to think, oh wow, there is there is something to this. There is something that God actually said, okay, Hebrew, this is the language I'm choosing. This is the the people that I'm giving it to. And if we want to be faithful Bible interpreters, it would do well for us to actually interact with those languages. Well, Brad, let me kick it over to you for the last question and we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Yeah, and and I don't want to take away from anything that you just said, but kind of play the devil's advocate. You know, maybe we don't have a bachelor's degree, or maybe somebody's listening just, you know, they're not at a spot financially or time-wise, uh, where they can where they can make uh whether it's the financial commitment or the time commitment to to just kind of go all in. I know Midwestern, y'all have uh something called For the Church Institute that's been um and I I've just kind of perused it, but I'm like, man, this is this is really interesting. And and I think, you know, just from an outsider, that I could see how it's beneficial for lay leaders in the church or or even just your your average church members. But can you kind of speak to the For the Church Institute? Is that still going on? And and how can uh people, whether we have a theological education and just want more in a certain area, or uh I just I'm not at a point where I can where I can go all in, but I but something's better than nothing. Uh can you speak to that for a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I'll I'll speak kind of to the particulars about Midwestern and what we have for a second. Um and I'll try to kind of answer more broadly just how can we make the best use of the free resources, the the lower barrier to entry stuff out there. Um, so uh I actually before leading the global campus, I I worked for that department, our church partnerships department, and helped to get for the church institute off the ground, and the team over there just do a fantastic job. And we we really thought to ourselves, yes, there's lots of content out there, but we we have a kind of a unique mission from uh the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention, though we serve lots of churches, to try to train biblically educated men and women to be and make disciples and to pursue theological education. So for the church institute is really a series of videos that are on these topics. So one way to think of it is like this is the simplified version of the same map. So we're covering all the same general areas, old and new testament theology classes, history classes. Um we're covering all the same areas, but we're just doing a little more simple, kind of high production value videos to kind of meant to introduce people. It's almost sort of like you know, when you're looking at your GPS and you've got like the satellite image versus just the very basic on my phone, here's how to get across the highway, kind of an image. And those are super helpful. The the best avenue for those, yes, guide, you know, self-learners can just get on there and go for it. And that's awesome. I know people have done that. Um, but the best thing is for someone who is seminary trained, a pastor who's seminary trained, to take that material and teach their church members and see who's who's binding, who's interested, um, to consider. Are there are there people in this church who, you know, I can then turn around and teach them some of what I learned in my seminary classes? I can have them read some of the books I read in my seminary classes. And can can we kind of do this in like a slowly leveling up kind of a way where we eventually get a lot of the same sort of training. Um, along those lines, though, in that church partnerships department, there are opportunities for for pastors with a certain amount of theological education to teach for credit classes for free in their churches. That's not something that we like put out everywhere because frankly, it sounds really awesome and then it's a ton of work and it's not for everybody, but it's a really cool opportunity and something that I was a part of and really love. And so there are ways, especially in small-town ministries, especially rural pastors, especially people who are trying to train up that next generation of leaders in their church, there are ways to get that to them that are not cost and uh prohibitive. Um, if you've got the time, you've got the energy, and you've got the training. So let me just say if you have the means, you going to seminary might actually open up the door for a bunch of people who can't to learn what you learned. Um, and so all the more reason to do seminary. But for those who can't, man, we have those sorts of resources. Of course, our faculty are writing books, and there's so many good resources out there via video and podcasts and everything and everywhere else. I'm just floored by what's going on there. I'll give a little shout out to the Gospel Coalition. Um, they have shifted from being kind of mostly like a collection of interesting bloggers in the evangelical world to really producing some high-quality, well-produced, well-thought out, and fairly comprehensive Bible and theology material in their Carson Center, uh, which is led by Benjamin Glad. And they have little essays on theological topics from experts that I would I I sometimes still go to and I'm just trying to get a little primer on something that I haven't thought about in a while. So there's just tons of great resources out there, and and their mission is to get this to uh people around the globe, especially in developing countries where there maybe isn't a seminary nearby for pastors. And of course, that applies oftentimes to my vocational pastors or lay leaders um in in in the United States. And so I just love those sorts of resources. We have those sorts of resources, and so those are a few of the things that we do, of course, conferences and podcasts and other things. But if I'm just thinking, how do you make the most of that? If this isn't for you, if right now uh the finances or the time just make this impossible, and that's true for so many of us, uh, like I said, especially by vocational pastors. Um I would start by relationships with people who have what you want, who want to, who you want to be like, um, who actually know your context. So, in other words, find that local pastor who was able to go to seminary, who uh is a godly example, who's not snobbish about it, who actually wants to see your church, you know, grow and thrive, and just meet with that person. I mean, frankly, start there, talk about what's going on and see what they glean from where they've learned. And it might be that as you're just talking over lunch about some pressing issue in your church, that they might bring up some resource that they recall that they learned, uh, and then they can pass it along to you. And and you can then go read that book or go listen to that, um, go listen to that episode or whatever it may be. I think relationships here have got to be a part of it. Um, besides that, I I will I will say, because if you're a pastor listening to this, you can't usually say this to your church. Uh let me say it for you that churches need to take seriously giving financial resources to continuing education for their pastors. Amen. Um, and many do. Uh, but some don't think about it because uh that maybe they don't see the necessity of it. So if you're listening to this and you're like a trustee at a church, when's the last time you offer to get a book fund or a conference fund or even yes, a seminary fund for your pastor? Um there are a lot of ways for you to do that. You can call our financial aid office and get some in Western to do that, or you can just set that aside in your budget so that your pastor can keep learning and keep growing. And I just promise you that's gonna be a blessing. They're the ones called to minister the word to the church so that the whole church can speak the truth and love to one another. Uh, it's not a trickle down, it's like the spring that gushes forth into the whole church. And so I would I would deeply encourage churches to be thinking, how can we, and I know budgets are tight, but how can we prioritize the ministry of the word and the education that contributes to the ministry of the word in our budget?

SPEAKER_02 38:36

That's so great. Well, as we wrap up our episode, um Dr. Montgomery, I want to give you a quick second um to just kind of tell us about the projects you have going on. Uh, we've mentioned your podcast. Um, is there anything you've got going on that you'd like the people to know about? If we had cameras, I'd tell you to look at the camera, but we're just talking audio here. But um just anything that you that that's going on or something you're a part of or something that that you just you would like our listeners to check out.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Well, sure. I I mean I love what we do here at Midwestern Seminary. I I love our For the Church National Conference. Happens every September here in Kansas City. It's a really sweet time for people who have graduated from this school, who are going to this school, or who just want to be encouraged in ministry. A lot of times pastors just bring leaders in their churches. And so please come get refreshed at that in September and tell me you're coming and we'll say hi. You you did mention the podcast, that's a resource from our global campus called Local Theologians. The reason we call it that is because uh online programs don't mean that you're not involved locally somewhere. In fact, they kind of empower you to keep doing that rather than to move. And so, wherever you are, if you if you've got a formal theological education in some way or another, or you're interested in these sorts of things, you are a local theologian. You're you're gonna be the person to put flesh and bones on these ideas to people. And so we've loved that. It's been it's a ton of fun video podcasts every week. I love doing it. Um, do have some books uh in the pipeline releasing one with BH Academic, that's the publisher, uh, authored with my good friend Joseph Lanier, called Every Perfect Gift, Classical Virtues for Christian Formation. That comes out this summer, maybe August or so. Uh, we'll see exactly when very soon. But basically, spiritual formation and spiritual growth are kind of trinity topics, and they're not usually approached from a theological academic angle. So, this book is kind of it's a little bit academic. It's supposed to be kind of an intro to the seven virtues. So if you don't know what that is, uh join the club. Um, when I read Mere Christianity from C.S. Lewis in high school, he he says, Okay, so just here's the very basics of Christian living. You know the seven virtues. And I remember thinking, I do not know the seven virtues. I've never heard of this in my life. It sounds kind of weird. And uh it's just been amazing to explore where this comes from biblically, how this has been a feature of Christian theology for 2,000 years uh or or so, and uh to be able to represent that in a biblical way, in a theological way for people who are trying to help members of their churches think what is spiritual formation? How do I grow? What's a good goal for my Christian life, to be a well-rounded Christian, to not have to choose between this or that, but to really be a well-rounded Christian. And so I'm excited for that to come out. I would love for y'all to check that out. Every perfect gift with BH Academic. And yeah, I'm just thankful to be a part of this and appreciate you guys letting me share a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Yeah, that's great. Um, Brad, do you have any final thoughts you want to say before we round out our episode?

SPEAKER_00 41:37

No, I I think this has been good. Thank you again for joining us. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Dr. Montgomery, it's been a pleasure. Um, I uh I guess I'll talk to you in class in a couple days. Actually, have him as professor right now. I'm sure we're gonna keep talking. Yeah, um, but thank you so much for coming on the episode and we really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Yeah, thank you both.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Awesome. Well, this has been another episode of the Small Town Church Podcast. As always, we really enjoy and are really thankful that you have chosen to listen to us each week. Um, again, we really just do this for you guys that are in the small church realm. Um, as we said at the outset of the beginning of season one, we were already having these conversations and we just decided to stick microphones in front of us. Um and so there's that's really the only thing is just we want to put something out there to serve in a in a realm that I don't think a lot of people are talking about. And so, as always, we encourage you. We're praying for you, we are on your team, and we hope that you are successful in your ministry context, whatever those may be. If you have any questions or any way we can pray for you, email us at thesmalltown uh pod at gmail.com and we will uh answer those questions in a QA episode, or we will absolutely be honored to um intercede on your behalf in prayer. We would love to do that. So until next time, we hope you guys have a great week, and we will see you next week on the Small Town Church Podcast. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Small Town Church Podcast. We pray that you have found this episode useful. If this episode has blessed you in some way, please share with someone else who might benefit from it. If you would like to partner with us, leave us a review so the algorithm can share this podcast with other people. If you have a question, please email it to thesmalltownpod at gmail.com and we will do our best to answer it either in a later episode or in the QA episode at the end of the season. Also, if we can partner with you in prayer in any way, email us so that we may have the honor of joining you in that prayer. Until next time, we pray you delight in God's mercies, which are new every morning, and remember to stay faithful to your small town church.