Season 2 Episode 13: Conflict within the Church

Welcome to the Small Town Church Podcast, the weekly podcast where we discuss all aspects of being in a small-town church. Whether you are a member, on staff, or have just begun attending a church in a small town, this is the podcast for you. 

On this week's episode, we talk about handling conflict within the church.We pray that you have found this episode useful. If this episode has blessed you in some way, please share with someone else who might benefit from it. If you would like to partner with us, leave us a review so the algorithm will share this podcast with other people. If you have a question, please email it to thesmalltownpod@gmail.com and we will do our best to answer it either in a later episode or in the Q&A episode at the end of the season. Also, if we can partner with you in prayer in any way, email us so that we may have the honor of joining you in prayer. 

Transcript

Zach Leonard 0:01

We are foolish to expect to serve God without opposition. The more zealous we are, the more sure we are to be assailed. Glory be to God, we know the end of the war. The great jack dragon shall be cast out and forever destroyed, while Jesus and they who are with him shall receive the crown. Let us sharpen our swords tonight, and pray the Holy Spirit to nerve our arms for the conflict. Never battle so important, never crown so glorious. Every man to his post, ye warriors of the cross, and may the Lord tread Satan under your feet shortly. Charles Spurgeon. Welcome to the Small Town Church Podcast, the weekly podcast where we discuss all aspects of being in a small town church. Whether you are a member on staff or have just begun attending a church in a small town, this is the podcast for you. Welcome back to the Small Town Church Podcast. We are glad that you are here. That's still yet to be determined whether or not we're better than ever. But whatever. We are back. We are back. We are in fact to the first part of that. This is the Small Town Church podcast. We are blowing through season two. We are really glad you are with us. And this episode is all about conflict within the church, how to handle conflict, what happens if you're the one that causes it, things of that nature. But season two is all about the pastor overseer role. And so we are going to be handling this conversation about conflict from that realm. I am Zach Leonard. I'm one half of the hosting team. I uh I am joined by my co-host. I've called him a 90 million different um names, co-host, partner. I think at one point I called you my assistant. Yeah, um, my co-host, uh Brad Borgren, is with me this morning. Brad, how are we doing this morning?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Doing good.

Zach Leonard 2:15

Good to be here. Good. Uh it's uh it's good to be back to have another episode. We are uh it's surprising that we are nearing the end of season two in what was uh kind of a crazy idea that we had a conversation in in Indiana. We went to a uh conference together, and I had been wanting to do a podcast for a while and knew that nobody wanted to listen to just me. And so I pitched the idea at Brad, and after giving me a quizzically um odd look as to uh why would we want to do that, he said, let me pray about it. And came back a few weeks later and said, Yeah, let's turn on the microphones and see what happens. But here we are 26, 27 episodes later, and it's uh the conversations are still flowing, and God is uh is is blessing this time, and we're thankful for it. As we get into this episode, we're gonna I want to set terms a little bit before we get into it. Conflict can be a range of different things. It uh it can be everything from conflict as a pastor in your own home to you say something that is wrong, not offensive, but you say something that maybe is ill-advised, and you have to handle the conflict that comes from from it. Most of what we're going to be talking about today is what happens when you preach the word faithfully, you handle yourself, you know, as correctly as we all broken souls can, and someone gets bothered by what you say, and just what the correct ways to handle that as a pastor should we address everything that comes along? What exactly does it look like to handle conflict in a godly manner? Because Paul talks about unity a lot, and we want to make sure that we are not backing down on the word of Christ and standing firm in biblical truth, but at the same time, not just saying, well, don't let the door hit you on the way out to every single person that gets mad. Clearly, there's got to be some give and take there. So, Brad, why don't you jump in and just kind of give us your thoughts on it and we'll go from there?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah, I mean, uh, it is a hard, it's a hard topic. It's um it's an uncomfortable topic, right? And I think even before jumping into it, uh, because I can even think of two or three situations in this past year where conflicts happened in our church. Sometimes it's been because of me, sometimes it's been um it hasn't involved me, but as the pastor, you you end up involved in it. Uh, and then obviously looking back, like, well, did I handle that right? And and I think before anything else, we just have to kind of assess our own self and our own motives, and like, okay, what um is is the speck out of my eye? Right, you know, what is my motive for this? Am I uh am I wanting to prove that I'm right? Am I wanting to prove uh my point, or is my intention really the health of the church through the health of individual members of it? And and sometimes that can be like our sin is good at blinding us um to all kinds of things. In fact, that was my last sermon, like why we need to lament over our sin because it blinds us totally uh from just a myriad of things. And so, yeah, before we can even resolve conflict, um, yeah, just starting out in that position of humility and just saying, Lord, you know, um we can't undo what has happened, but help these next steps to go according to your word and and according to your will. Yeah, that's great.

Zach Leonard 6:02

I think and forgive me, I for Oh, I found it. Okay. So I have this incredible habit of remembering what book something comes from in the Bible. I'm still very much working on the chapter side of it, um, and I tend to mix them up. You know, I know your big ones, you know, your your 1 Corinthians 11 with the head coverings and the 1 Corinthians 13 with, you know, and John 3, 6. You know, I know the big ones, right? Um, but then you get to lawsuits against believers, and I'm like, I know it's in 1 Corinthians somewhere, I just don't remember the chapter. But when you look at chapter 6, yes, it's talking about, you know, litigation specifically, but I think there's some truths that come there, and and basically what Paul is saying is things need to happen, need things to be handled within the church as much as humanly possible. And I think that's a good idea for us to remember is sometimes what what someone is bothered about, we may need to check our own ego at the door. You know, there are times where you may say something and it is you are absolutely correct in what you said, but maybe you didn't say it as charitably as you could have. Right. How much does it really harm you to apologize for that, really and truly? Now, I'm not telling you to back down on the truth of the word. By you preach something that is biblically true and they're asking you to recant that.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

That's a different thing.

Zach Leonard 7:28

You just you stand for the truth of God. Um, we are called as overseers to do that. But I can tell someone that they need to stop lying, and I can say it to it kind them to it kindly and still tell truth, or I can call them an idiot and you know, tell them they're being they need to stop lying and they're going to hell, and I can do all of these different things that aren't the nicest thing in the world. And sometimes we may need to just check ourselves and say, you know what? You're right. I didn't come with you, come to you in Christianly brotherly love, telling you the truth you needed to hear, but did it in a wrong manner. And so maybe I need to check myself at the door. And so I think that chapter is helpful because one of the things that he says is um in that regard was it it again they're talking about lawsuits, but it says in verse 7, um, or even verse 5, going back, I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers? But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers. To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud even your own brothers? And basically what he's just saying there is, who does it really hurt for you to feel wronged in the face of conflict if you're not if it's not a if it's not a major issue, you know, if it's not a well it hurts yourself, it hurts your pride, right? And and and then on this on the side of that, and this is something I've had to learn a lot, uh, especially recently, we're called to die to ourselves, and sometimes that pride of ourself, that ego of ourself, honestly probably could stand to be knocked down a couple notches. And so we're not saying to just give in on every single thing that comes your way, but be wise as as serpents and innocent as doves, as in as the scripture says, in in how you approach the conflict. Maybe you just need to say, look, for the betterment of this moment, I absolutely apologize. I I'm, you know, I should have come at you in a in a more unifying manner. So um, so Brad, what other thoughts do you have on that? How do you how do you think we need to like what what should be the steps regarding let's say someone comes to you or you get that Monday morning email or you even find out from someone later that someone is I just kicked the table, that someone is mad about something, but they won't even come to you. What are the steps that you need to do to try and approach that conflict to handle it?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah, I think um trying to get all the facts before you, right? That if if they're really not willing to talk to you, then there's only so much that you can do. And and so backing up to pray about it, right? That say, Lord, you know what's going on, you know the the tension that this has caused uh and the potential whatever outcome may be. Uh, but just praying that the Holy Spirit would convict them to say, hey, you know, I need to get if I'm upset by something, uh, to get that out in the open. Uh, because yeah, if if you're not willing to talk about it, then it doesn't really it's kind of a dead end. Um and that one of the situations I'm thinking of that happened this year or within the last year, um it was kind of like that. Like it someone was upset about something, but we never could I never have been able to identify what this something was. Like, was it me? Was it something I did or said, or was it something someone else did or said, or like if you can't tell me what the problem is, like I'm really limited as to how to go about helping you. Uh and and to kind of what you were saying, going back to that that scripture, that I think that doesn't just well, it it's not directed at pastors, but it's directed at at church people in general, that that it's so easy, it we can get so easily offended in the church. And the number one reason or the number one solution is well, I'm just gonna go find another church. Yep, right? And I'm like, man, that should be the last resort, right? Uh that what's worse, you know, do I care more about myself or do I care more about the health of the body? You know, am I am I willing to be defrauded, even if it's unjustly, um, for the sake of the body, knowing that the Lord knows everything and and He's He's the just judge. Yeah. Uh and so yes, pastors have to be willing to understand that we're absolutely not perfect, and we need to be the first one to apologize. But I think our people need to be that way also, to say, hey, if uh if some situations happened and and it didn't go the way I wanted, or I, you know, whatever, I got my feelings hurt, like, okay, before I just like bail and and go find another church somewhere, um let's think about this and and take some time and breathe and consider maybe could I be in the wrong, you know, not that you are, right, but at least asking yourself the question um to not being not putting ourselves above reproach. That's a good point. Um then com you know go ahead. No, go ahead. I was just gonna say communication, you know, we um in our mind in my mind, I can come up with all kinds of reasons that people are upset, and they all may be a hundred percent false, right? So i we've got to communicate rightly, like doing all the what ifs and letting our mind travel and just wonder like, okay, what's going on here? That that doesn't help anything. Sure. One, it just causes anxiety, yeah, and potentially more conflict, right? Because you're fixated on something that's not really the root cause. Sure, absolutely. So yeah, prayer, communication, humility, um just basically doing what God's word says, right? You know, being willing to say, hey, the body is more important than me. Amen. As pastors, my my flock is more important than me. Yep. And for for members to say, hey, the the corporate body is more important than me. And then there's there's pass like if you're gonna get upset with your elders and pastors, and whatever you call them, right? That if you're gonna bring a charge against a pastor, you better have pretty good evidence, right? Don't just make up stuff or don't just well, they did something or said something in passing. No, it's it you need at least two witnesses, right? And so um but yeah, that that goes both ways.

Zach Leonard 14:34

Yeah, I agree. You know, it's it's funny you said start the conversation from assume you know, from the idea of wondering could you actually be in the wrong. I I'm actually at the point in my life where I just assumed that when I started like I probably did something, yeah. And then and then I just go from there. Once I've figured out what I did wrong, then I go into you know how we can work out the conflict. But the two best pieces of advice regarding just church and conflict, it's funny, one of them didn't even come from church. I used to be a coach um in we'll call it a former life. I uh I taught in public school for several years, and I I coached. And and if you've never coached in West Texas, um there are two inescapable truths. One, every parent thinks their child is the next Michael Jordan. And two, it doesn't take much to tick that parent off. I mean, just they're not getting enough playing time. You you said something in the heat of battle again to your son, to their son, and they didn't like it. Whatever. You gave them the wrong number. I'm I've had I've had parent meetings on all kinds of crazy things. And one coach told me, an older coach, the very first time I went into a parent meeting, he said, All right, I need you to be aware of something. This parent is gonna yell and they're gonna scream and they're gonna say all kinds of stuff, and we're gonna sit here and we're gonna take it for 20, 30 minutes. And then once they're calmed down, then we're gonna say, All right, how are we gonna fix this? You know, and sometimes in church conflict, we're looking church is full of broken human beings, right? You may find yourself in a room where you just need to let that person talk. And the more they talk, the more they realize, oh, I really am not as mad about this as I thought I was. Right. In the heat of the moment, thing, and I'm the worst about this, my wife will agree. I mean, when Becca, when you listen to this episode, don't nod too hard because your head will fall off. Um, I I can take I can take something and run with it, and I can get mad about the tiniest thing, and not that it happens all the time, but like if I let Satan have that foothold and I'm tired or I'm hungry, or you know, I there are moments where I my guard is down and I let something minuscule make me mad, it doesn't take for me to make a much for me to make a mountain out of a molehill. And and I gotta I gotta talk it through and back up and go, okay, it's not as big of a deal as I thought it would. That's that's on me, right? The second one actually came from from high school, actually. Um long story short, I was in a relationship with someone who wasn't a believer, and she ran the whole normal line of she doesn't go to church because it's full of hypocrites, right? And which nowadays I would say, yeah, you're absolutely like you're absolutely right. It is full of hypocrites. Come on, we've got room for one more. Like that's what I would say to a person who said that, right? We're all bringing, you know, if somebody doesn't play Mozart correctly, we don't blame Mozart. We play the, you know, so you can't blame Christianity when Christians mess it up. Yeah. I mean, that's just kind of a um but I I was talking to my dad about how I didn't want to go to church, and this was my my first major relationship, you know, and I I wanted to do everything she wanted to do, and she didn't want to go to church, so I didn't want to go to church, which was just stupid when I think about it now. And I told my dad, I don't want to go to church because church is full of hypocrites, and he looked me dead in the eye. And dad, if you ever listen to this, I feel free to pause it and hear him replay me telling you you were right, you because you were. He looked at me dead in the face and said, If hypocrites get between you and God, which ones are closer? And I was like, Oh, see, that's not what I need right now, right? If you're the type of person that changes churches at the drop of a hat because of whatever reason, you're hindering what absolutely could be a really fruitful relationship with other believers just because your feelings got hurt or something along those lines, right? We and I used to be the same way. I I I mean, I would change churches because the music wasn't good, or I'd change churches because the pastor said something I didn't agree with that was actually probably biblical. You know, I I there was a myriad. It's we may have to have a whole episode of just all the different lessons Zach has learned through failure um in his life. You know, I should title a whole nother podcast. Um Here's What You Don't Do and Here's How I Learned It. Um is really honestly should probably be the name of it. But I used to be that guy. I used to be the guy that would change churches at the drop of a hat. And really and truly, I was looking for reasons not to go. Um, you know, I was I was having my own struggles. I wasn't sure I actually believed it. I but and this was early on in my marriage, you know, I was honestly kind of lying to my wife, saying I was a believer when I really wasn't. And we had little kids, and I just kind of grew up with this whole, you got to put your kids in church, they turn out okay, sort of mindset, you know, which is just horrible. And I know everybody listening is going, dude, this guy's a baby. You should put your kids in church. Right, yes, but like for the right reasons. Right. I people are listening to this going, man, God does work miracles because this dude turned out to be a pastor, right? Um, but it made me I the church I'm at now, yes, it has its problems. Yes, it has broken people in it. But I've learned that through, you know, when your wife says something you don't like, you don't just go divorce her and pick up a new one. You know, you labor with her, you you work through that because that relationship over time bears fruit. And churches are the same way. When you labor with a church, when you spend time with them, I mean, there's a reason why when we become Christians, we don't automatically become perfect. And the reason for that is is because when we labor through our Christianity with God, when we strive toward Him and yearn towards Him, our faith grows deeper and our relationship with Him grows deeper. If we if we got if we became um I know I said married, if we became Christian, part of the bride, right? It it holds. Um, if we became Christian and all of a sudden we got the full knowledge of God and we knew when he was coming back, how useful would we really be to the to the to the kingdom? We'd probably just sit back and be like, you know what? I'm good. I'm gonna just hang out here about a year out, I'm gonna max out all my credit cards and sell all my stocks and then go home, right? Like we don't know, and we don't get all the fullness of knowledge because it's it's a journey and we work through that, and churches are the exact same way. So when we encounter conflict, we really honestly should bring it about from the mindset of how can we use this and maybe even tell that to this person when you're going into a room to handle conflict with a per with a person or a couple, you know, if the if the wife is mad, bring the husband into it all always. And it goes back to our accountability episode. But if you're in an office with them, look them dead in the face and say, look, I've read the Pauline epistles. He really, really likes unity. So how can we solve this to where you and I are more unified at the end of it? And if you start the conversation that way, man, that's going to change the mindset completely. Then here's why you're wrong and I'm right, or let me apologize, I'm so sorry. No, just like what can we do to strengthen the unity that we have in Christ together because we are part of the same covenant faculty. Fellowship in membership. Um, so as we kind of downhill slope this episode, um, we've still got a few more minutes before we uh hit our magical 30-minute mark. Um, I don't know why. That's just kind of the number that we set at the beginning of this um whole thing, and that's just kind of what we go with. But as we kind of downhill slide this episode, what are some final thoughts that you have? Anything that you want to throw out there, just kind of to leave our listeners with.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

No, I I think what you said is really good, and you you end it, you end our podcast always with with the same thing to to always be faithful to your small town church, right? And that it really goes back to this idea that um Ron Edmondson, I'm not really sure who he is, but just a quote popped up that said that if you're if your church has conflict, it's not a sign that your church is unhealthy. It's a sign that your church has people in it. Amen. Right? That if your church has people in it, there's going to be conflict. Uh, but it's not all neg it doesn't have to all it shouldn't, none of it should end negatively, right? Uh, but it it gives us the opportunity, like you're saying, to say, hey, are we uh what is the most important thing in this equation, right? Is it am I elevating myself and my feelings and my desires, or uh is it the bride of Christ? And that goes with marriage, right? It's a lot easier in marriage to be selfish than it is to be selfless. Uh and there's a reason half of our marriages end in divorce, right? Uh because selfishness is easy, um, but it has devastating effects. And um, but yeah, being faithful to your small town church or your big church, you know, whatever size church, just be faithful to uh your church. Um yeah, if if there's a major doctrinal issue, of course, that's not what we're talking about here. Exactly. Um we're talking about everyday disagreements, conflicts that that Satan just wants to throw in there to make something big out of nothing.

Zach Leonard 24:04

The last thing that I will say as we close out this episode is on the flip side of this, in regards to the big doctrinal things, you're going to encounter people that are not gonna want to hear truth. And and that look, it's it's just it's the truth of it. Not everyone is going to value godly behavior the same way we're assuming you guys do as overseers. I mean, just I can't speak for our entire audience, but I mean it that's what we're gonna assume. And so there are going to be times where you're going to need to go, and it's gonna be conflict uh conflict because the person's not gonna hear what you have to say, but you're gonna need to go and speak truth to them in love. See, and and and remember the difference between kindness and niceness. You know, kindness is willing to maybe hurt your feelings a little bit, not being a jerk, but maybe hurt your feelings a little bit so that you understand the biblical truth of it all. Niceness just lets you do whatever you want to. And we don't want to be nice, we want to be kind. But go, you're gonna go to people. I mean, for example, let's say you've got a young couple that is not married and they're they're living together, and they come to you and they want to be members. You're going to have to go to them and say, look, this is a sin. If you want to be members here, you're going to have to move out. You're going to have to find new, and we'll help you as a church. I heck, I bet you we could even find an elder that, you know, family that would let one of half of you live with them for a month or two while we find you an apartment. You know, you're going to be kind in all of this, but you're going to have conflict sometimes where people are going to be like, that's not what I want to hear, and we're just going to leave. You have to be willing to understand that you are not able to save everybody. You are not able, you know, you're not perfect. You're not, even Jesus had people walk away from him, and he just said, Some truths are hard to understand, and let them go. We don't want to have that callous mindset of being like, well, I mean, I was right. You know, it's not that, but we have to understand that there are going to be times that we have conflict moments where we are speaking biblical truth and the other person doesn't want to hear it. And we've done we've been prayerful about it, we've labored with them, we've done everything that we can, and they still walk away. We can't be happy about it. We're not going to be thrilled about that fact. We'll burden for those people, but it's the truth of the matter. You know, that's that's what's going to happen. Well, uh, as as we close out this episode, we thank you for your listenership. Um, one quick side note for some unknown reason, this is the same room we've recorded a ton of episodes in, but everything's squeaking today. So the squeaking table, the me kicking the table, all of those sorts of things, we apologize. It's this real world, y'all, that we're recording this in. Also, um, my lovely daughter, uh, Cora is uh is in with us today, and um, and she had uh she had food and things of that nature. So um she's six, so we we we had some life going on in the episode today. And so if you heard any of those things, well, we're human just like everybody else. So there you go. That's uh that just know that it's real world. But we do thank you for your listenership. We thank you that you're you're willing to join us each week and um and just kind of let us talk through some of these things that are important to the church. I cannot stress to you enough, we're on your team. We're praying for you, and we want small churches to succeed because that's where a large majority of believers are meeting each week. Yeah, the big megachurches get all the news and all the highlight reels and all the YouTube shorts and all that kind of stuff, but you guys, the faithful overseers that are in there week in and week out, you're you're receiving no glory. You are you are pointing it all towards Christ, and your small congregation is is procking and rolling and serving faithfully, we applaud you and thank you for for what you do. If you're a person who's a part of a small town church, continue to be faithful to your church, lift your pastor up. If you haven't, if you I want you to sit and think for a second as you listen to this episode, when was the last time I texted my pastor or saw him at the grocery store and told him, man, we love having you here. We thank you for what you're doing. And if it's been longer than about a week, go do it. And like just pick up your phone, especially if you're a guy, pick up your phone. If you're a woman, start a group text with your husband. Um, but text your your pastor and just tell him, hey man, we love what you're doing. Um, and and thank him for the work that he does. Because it's not easy work and it's it is a calling. And while we don't live for man's applause or approval, um it doesn't hurt when we get it sometimes, right? Um so um for yeah, for those of y'all that are listening that that attend other churches, go go tell your pastor how much you love him. So thank you again. Um if you have any questions, keep the conversation going, and and we will be back next week as we bring out another episode. Hope you have a guys have a great week. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Small Town Church Podcast. We pray that you have found this episode useful. If this episode has blessed you in some way, please share with someone else who might benefit from it. If you would like to partner with us, leave us a review so the algorithm can share this podcast with other people. If you have a question, please email it to thesmalltownpod at gmail.com and we will do our best to answer it either in a later episode or in the QA episode at the end of the season. Also, if we can partner with you in prayer in any way, email us so that we may have the honor of joining you in that prayer. Until next time, we pray you delight in God's mercies, which are new every morning, and remember to stay faithful to your small town church.