Confessions of a Hollywood Screenwriter Turned Novelist

 A lot of authors want to break into Hollywood. Kay A. Oliver did it in reverse: She started out as a director and screenwriter, then transitioned into writing novels. Oliver is the author of the psychological thrillers, “Fear Struck” and “Blood Seed.” 

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Oliver in which, among other things, we talk about the fine line between “horror” and “thriller,” how to find a good manuscript editor, and the status of women in Hollywood. 

For more information about Oliver and her work, as well as writing tips, visit https://kayaoliver.com/ 

You can reach me at chrisbournea@gmail.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome to the Culture Beats Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Bournet, and my guest today is former Hollywood Creative and author, KayA Oliver. Hi, Kay.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hello, nice to meet you and face to face.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Yeah, yeah. Great to have you on. Yeah, so so tell me, how did you make the transition from Hollywood creative to author?

SPEAKER_01 0:30

You know, in a Hollywood creative, um you have a lot of people to answer to. Right? Yeah, the executives, the studio executives, the people who put the money into the film and everything. And making a leap into writing novels uh w was twofold. One, full creativity on your own, right? You don't have to answer, you only answer to your readers. And second is I like strong, intelligent female character leads, protagonists. And Hollywood, especially during my time, didn't really trend towards that. They loved my scripts, however, uh fem strong female leads were not marketable at you know, quote unquote, um at the time. So I went ahead and took that leap.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

So when you say um Hollywood Creative, you were a screenwriter.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

I did screenwriting, I did directing, and um I produced a couple of shorts, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Okay. So tell me about your um novel, Fear Struck. It's the the plot sounds very compelling. So it's about a serial killer who's sort of um not exactly imitating, but the their crimes seem to m mirror the plot of a of a novelist uh uh book that's been published.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Yeah, or Orson Cutter is a bestseller novelist who kind of feels like the conduit of you know, stories just come to him and he writes them, and uh he doesn't do a lot of plotting, he does, you know, seat of the pants writing, and um he gets arrested and charged with murder because they the cops feel that's you know he's following one of his own bestseller books and killing people. And but he knows he's innocent, he's thrown into jail, he's gotta figure out how to work the jail system, very scary. Can he prove his innocence? Can he survive in jail? You know, can he prove that he's not the killer? And he also knows, based on the information his lawyer's given him, more murders are to come because there's more murders in the book.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

So we've got the gotta get out of there, gotta prove your innocence, gotta find the real killer.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

How did the how did you come up with the story? How did how did the plot idea come to you?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

You know, as someone who writes, uh as a novelist, you know, they always say, right, what you know, I've written a lot of what what I've researched, but it came to me in the sense of what would happen if something I wrote started to not be fiction anymore and started to become reality.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

You know, that that is a the think about it, daunting idea.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yeah, that's a that's a very scary thought.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

All of a sudden you're accused of it because it's the the quote unquote copycat if that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

You know, it makes it look like you.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah. It almost seems like um the killer is trying to frame the novelist, like or or sees that it would be very easy to to have the blame pinned on the the novelist and and cover their own tracks.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

One would think so, but I love twists. So yes. Without giving it away, one would yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah, yeah. So tell me about the sequel. It's called Blood Seed, is that right? Blood Seed. And that's where law enforcement is trying to track down the bodies that the the or find where the bodies have been buried that the that the sil serial killer murdered.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Another, yeah, so it's a different serial killer than Blood Seed. But Orson uh at that point had kind of stopped writing his own mystery novels because of what he experienced and having gone through that huge tragedy and drama. And they arrest, actually, it's based on a known serial killer. I don't want to highlight his name because he's not worth it. But it is based on a method methodical serial killer. And the cops are having a hard time getting through the games he's playing uh during the investigation and interrogation. And one of the cops who worked uh on the original Cutter case where he was charged before, says, I have an idea. Why don't we get Orson Cutter to pretend like he wants to write a book and you know, make this guy out to think he's this great serial killer? And and and in the process he'll confess where the bodies are. And you start to go through the interview and the things that police and law enforcement have to face, you know, when you're sitting across from a serial killer who you detest and you hate, and you hate more and more with every word coming out of his cold, you know, unfeeling heart, and you have to swallow all that to get the information you're looking for, and what happens if you don't get it all?

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah, it sounds very true to life because I actually just read recently um a nonfiction uh book by a detective, uh, actually a case that happened uh near where I live in Ohio, and um she talked about how she had to get the serial killer's trust and basically not talk harshly to him, basically say, Look, you did what you did, and everybody deserves forgiveness, but we need you for to help these families have resolution. We need you to tell us where you hit the so she she went into how it made her feel disgusting in a way, but also she she also felt like, well, this person at the end of the day is a human being, although they did very heinous things. Yeah, so that sort of dilemma about you have to kind of get there win the trust of the person who did the crime to get them to open up and give you information, but at the same time, it's yeah, i it's kind of a moral compromise.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Right, and as the person interrogating or tried trying to get the information out and do all that, does that affect you? I mean it affects you. Does that change your life? Do you see things differently? What happens to you? And law enforcement go through this day after day. And we you know, and we don't tend to, you know, they've got to stuff it down, get rid of it. We always know that there's a case that, you know, will follow them their whole life kind of thing that they will never forget. But, you know, that's what this novel is literally dedicated to those officers and uh detectives who try to get that information from those individuals which seem inhuman.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah, so in in your novels you you explore the psychological side of crime, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Um yes, on both of these novels. This is technically my third series that I just started. So yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

What got you interested in exploring the psychology rather than just doing a straightforward whodunit kind of mystery?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Um because I like the intelligence of it, the um, you know, give you more to think about when you read. Sorry, excuse me. It is windy out here, so I have allergy, so hard to me. But yes, so I mean I really like the psychology of it myself. I I would not want to be put in that position, so what would I feel like if I was? You know, I I most of my novels are based on something I'm trying to figure out a what if, my own what ifs, and uh what if that happened, and they asked me to do that, and would I be able to, and how would that change me for the rest of my life? Because I'm sure it would. So uh especially somebody who doesn't deal with it day in and day out, I don't have those um skills to be able to do what law enforcement continue to do. I mean, I could see people get into law enforcement and then go, yep, not my cup of tea, I'm out, you know, because of the things that they see or have to go through. So I like to explore it safely in a book.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah, yeah. Why do you think thrillers and um just and also true crime, why why do you think it it fascinates the public? Because you would think when people are looking for entertainment, they want to escape real like the grim reality, but it seems like people really get fascinated with crime.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

I think it is the puzzle pieces, uh, especially the the way the true club crime shows present themselves. They don't say this is what happened, boom, right? They give you a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit there. It's you know, and you want to become the detective, and and you're trying to go, wait, well, why didn't they talk about this or you know, say that? And um as I write more and more uh Who Done It in one way or another, um I catch things in a show where I'm like, okay, well, they should have looked at that, and then they come back and said, Well, we looked at, you know, later on they tell you. And the way they lay it out, it's never a linear, you know, it's never just we looked at the other, all of a sudden they go back to the second person they interviewed. So I think it's a lot of us trying to figure it out before they give us the result. Because we all know at the end, or we get a good feeling of who did it before we ever get to the end, and I think people are um patted on the back when they get it right.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Even though it's not a good story, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Probably also it in a strange way makes people feel better about their own lives, like okay, maybe I have bills to pay and and a job I may not like, but at least I my spouse hasn't been murdered, or at least I'm not a I'm not a victim trapped somewhere by some sadistic serial killer. So maybe it's right, it's sort of kind of a release of saying, well, my life is not so bad.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Or or maybe you're learning from it, so your life won't ever be that way. You won't get cut. Exactly. But they're so cunning, you know. Some of the you know, uh suspects are so cunning that you don't even see it coming, and that's the scary part.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, yeah. The the true crime book that I that I mentioned that I read, this this man would lure he was very handsome and would lure women into places that you think of an intelligent person would say, Okay, I'm not getting going in this dark woods where dark area patch of woods with this person, but yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Or they bring the children with them, right? There's certain killers that have the children in the car, and then they ask the children to go play while they kill somebody. Uh you know, things that we would never, you know, it's not in our everyday thinking. And that is tough when you're starting to write. I mean, I've always wondered where does Stephen King get his ideas? Deep in there, in him already, you know. Oh, you know, you gotta wonder. So, you know, uh exploring things and doing twists and turns really make you be on your toes as a writer and as a reader.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah, and then also I think it probably thrillers and and true crime as well kind of raise the moral questions that we all ponder like why does evil exist? How does someone get to be that twisted that they would do these horrible things, not just once, but over and over again? Do they have any conscience whatsoever?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Right, right. And and in Blood Seed, that killer that I'm referencing um loosely in the sense of um, you know, not using his real name or anything, really felt that was his calling, that God made him flawed so that he could do this. That was his answer to that question, which is astounding.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Yeah, yeah. I think there's two schools of thought about at least among fiction writers that I've heard. One when it comes to villains, I mean, one one school of thought is that there in a sense are no villains. Even villains think that they're doing they're they're very misguided, obviously, but they think they're doing something for some grand purpose. Like you said, they're they're driven by some force or whatever. Then there's another school of thought of why does anyone do anything? I remember, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Black Widow with uh Deborah Winger and Teresa Russell, where Teresa Russell is playing this woman who's suspected of killing these series of rich husbands. And I think Deborah Winger actually says that line at one point, like, I don't know if she was abused as a child, why does anyone do anything?

SPEAKER_01 13:18

So yeah, there are and you you can you bring up a fantastic point. We go back to their childhood to see what went wrong.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

And it's not always something went wrong.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

It's not the mom's fault or the dad's fault or the whatever.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah, it it raises those questions about nature or nurture. It's like if someone if a serial killer or someone like that wasn't wasn't severely abused when they were child and they they came from a relatively normal, quote unquote whatever that is, home, is there something defective in you know in their psyche that no matter how they would have been raised, they would have turned out the same way. And that's that's really scary.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Absolutely. Because there are a number of those famous ones. They didn't have a problem, you know, raising a good home had a you know, loving mother and father, tried to do their best. They saw some quirks about their child, but they thought, you'll just get through it, you know, and they didn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah. So um, so when how do you as as a writer, how do you um unwind or how do you writing about such heavy material, how is it something that you kind of have to give your time give yourself time to decompress after you've been writing, or how do you how do you not carry those um really heavy themes with you all throughout the night or day or after you've finished writing for the day?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, well for me, the beauty of it is I do have three series.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

So one of them is about an Egyptian uh archaeologist who has uh wanted to know if we're disturbing their peace by exhuming all of their body, you know, the mummies' bodies. And I come up with my own conclusion, but it's it's much lighter. It you know, it's a kind of different story. And then Sisters in Cold Blood, the Shaws investigation as a husband and wife team working on cold cases. So I bounce back and forth. I don't write book after book after book in a series. My next book coming out will be the fifth book in the Shaws. So I I can relax and go back to the Shaw. She's a playful character, you know. Her husband's like, What are you doing? You know, she's mischievous, and you know, and uh and they go off and solve things, and then I can go back and I've already started kind of, you know, what am I going to write for book three of the uh cutter series? So uh that's kind of how I loosen in between. I don't like writing them back to back to back.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Um, and I I it takes me about six months to get a book out, so it's to say that every every year a book comes out in the series. But um it's you know, it's not like you have to wait three years for a book to come out, but um, that's how I take I you know go down and do that, and then I go to tea with my girlfriends. Um You know, if you want to if you want to get grounded, you go out with your best friends who will tell you, you know, whatever you need to hear. So uh, you know, I do a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

So do you do any of your friends do you um do you recruit them to read your work and give you feedback, or is that would you rather have an editor or someone who's more objective?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Well no, I I have well I have an editor, definitely have an editor, but I do use my friends. So you'll see in my uh uh Dr. Callie Worthy series that starts with disturbed tombs. Uh my the girlfriend in the book is actually a girlfriend that I know. And uh I just said, can I use you as a character and give me a different last name? So Doris in the book is a friend I have who, you know, obviously a different name, but I know all our characteristics, the same with Adele. So I use my friends, they all know their targets. Um you know, the saying goes that if you're hanging out with a writer, something you may say or do, which I learned a long time ago in the motion picture industry, will show up in in the book. And you know, I've sat in the screening of a film going, wait a minute, I had that conversation with the director, now it's in the film. You know, so I've I've had that experience myself. So I always want, you know, if I meet someone new, be careful because you might end up in my book. And I like and I'll say that to them, you know, that's great, that's something I should put in my book. So uh yeah, I do, you know, I do and it helps me make very rounded characters because I know a lot of stuff about my friends. I know what they like, you know, what they, you know, what their favorite foods are, you know, their c their humor, you know, and so it makes I already know what I'm writing about.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Right. Yeah, and um kind of going back to our conversation about exploring the psychological uh aspects of um of crime and and thrillers, I'm starting to see even in horror that uh that psychological element. It seems like audiences don't just want blood and guts. I'm thinking of movies like um it's either Neon or A24 that does um uh horror and there they like there was a movie with Hugh Grant um recently called, I think it was um Heretic, where two um not Jehovah's Witnesses, more two Mormon girls knock on his door, Hugh Grant's door, and they get into this big debate about philosophy and religion, and it turns out he's a psycho, but he they can't tell at first. But it's like it was it wasn't just blood and guts, it was psychological and yeah, talking about philosophy and religion. So it seems like even in horror, audiences want kind of a little more depth, not just blood and guts. Yeah, yeah, mayhem murder and mayhem.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah, yeah, but they want to uh think too, they want to figure out what's gonna happen, they want to figure out the twists without being hit over the head with a twist.

unknown 19:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

You know, um I yeah, so I I love doing that. I uh you know, I put twists in my books where I kind of hint at something, but I don't make it a big you know announcement in the sense of, oh, when you go back later and the thing happened, you go, wait, she said something up here, you know. And you you can't just pull something out of the middle of nowhere because you lose the trust of your reader. You have to have inserted clues without them really knowing that you put clues in the book, and that's a skill and a talent and a challenge at times, which I really give me a challenge, I'm up for it. So um definitely that movie was one of those that you're referring to where you're just kind of picking up on little things and um you know trying to figure out what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, uh f f foreshadowing as they call it in in writing. And I I think it was Alfred Hitchcock who's credited with something to the effect of if you show a gun in act one, it better go off in act two. So it's like you're not just writing about things randomly, it's it's foreshadowing and setting that mood and building the suspense, as you as you said.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Right, but you might not point out that they saw the gun. They may just write yourself, you know, you're not like you're not drawing all the attention to the gun. So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah. Do you think it's hard uh as as a writer um to kind of keep audiences uh in suspense because people are so jaded now. They've the average person has seen hundreds of movies, they've you know, they're a lot of readers of of certain genres, especially thrillers, they they consume so many books. So do you do you think it's hard to kind of keep keep the reader guessing?

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yes and no. Uh yes, in the fact that they're they have expectations of that, right? They have the expectations, they might be looking for it. So um definitely, but if you like I said, it's a skill in the sense of, oh, I you know, kind of mention it and bypassing and then go on to something else in a conversation or something. Um and then it pops up later. So it, you know, they you know, people who read my books one after another probably start to go, I bet that's a clue, right? Because they know my writing style. You have your own writing voice. So um definitely, but there are certain things that they have expectations of, and that's why they keep reading those books because they have those expectations that this book's going to do this, this, and this, tropes as we call them, um, since you refer back to the writing terms, so tropes. And you know, you need to include those in the books because if you don't have them, then they're not going to be happy with your book.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

So it's yes and no.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah, yeah. And I do think uh readers of mysteries and thrillers tend to be very, very savvy. Like my mom reads a lot of thrillers and mysteries, and she will ruin a movie for you. Like we we saw the six cents together, and she saw the twist with um what's I can't remember the actor's name. Uh Bruce Willis. Thank you. Bruce Willis being a ghost. She and she leans over to me and whispers, he's a ghost. It's just like she ruined the whole movie.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Did she tell you why she knew that? Because I knew it too.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

She didn't. Why why do you why do you think well, why did you know it?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

I knew it because I first thought that I'm sitting there watching the movie going, why did they not spend money on his wardrobe?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

And then I started going, he's wearing the same clothes.

unknown 22:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Over and over. You know, he might take a jacket off, he might take the vest off, but he was wearing the same clothes, and I kept going, wait, oh, he can't change clothes.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

So yeah. So that's what caught me. But that was a different background. So I was just curious what hers was, other than the kid keeps saying, I talk to ghosts. Like you are one.

unknown 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah. Yeah. I you know, I did I honestly didn't think to ask her. I just thought, well, she reads so many mysteries and thrillers that she can see plot twists coming. And even though yeah, even though I'm I'm I'm a writer myself, I tend to get absorbed in a story. Unless it's like something that's like really obvious, I tend not to I don't know, I don't know why that is. I tend not to pick up on foreshadowing or clues. I just and I and I'm usually surprised when a when a plot twist happens.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

That's so nice. I I don't have that. I was I started as a video editor when I uh started, so I knew how to put stories together and that kind of thing. So, you know, my thing is like, oh, okay, well, I see why they did that, you know, and jump ahead. And so very often, I don't even I can't even think of a movie that's caught me off guard that I didn't see coming. Well I was watching one movie and they showed the silhouette of the guy walk the killer on the other side of glass, and I went, that's so-and-so, the actor, so he's the killer. You know, because I was just like everybody and my friends were like, What? He's gotta be the and sure enough, he was. So I mean it's you know, it's yeah, I look at things differently with that background, you know. Um, so y if you love films and you love, you know, uh being caught off guard, which I wish I could get that back, but I never um you don't want to learn about films. Ruined your life in that sense. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Do you think uh I recently um heard an uh an interview with Janet Lee that uh Fresh Air rebroadcast rebroadcast about it was like one of the anniversaries of Psycho, and she was just talking about how revolutionary it was at the time that she was such a big star and that she was killed off, and that's why the movie was so shocking. Do you think it's hard to do that with audiences these days because you know that was what the 50s?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

It would be it would be they so I actually wrote an article on this. I'm also a writer for the entertainment industry.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

And I wrote about how we don't like our heroes being killed. And we put stock into the actors, regardless of what their character is, and a lot of people love that actor, like okay, I'm going to this film because I love so and so. And then when they get killed off, you know, you you start to actually feel a death of your person that you are, you know, that you follow and love. And you you know it's a movie, you know they're not dead, but you still go through that emotional um wave of what's happening. And you know, a lot of people don't like that feeling. So, you know, there are I did an article on you know the actors who have died the most on film and and why, you know, why we don't like seeing that. So um, you know, that is the why you want you don't want your main hero characters, uh, the leading men or women to be killed off. It just doesn't settle right with the audience most of the time.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Right. Because then it becomes a uh basically like a um a tragedy rather than it becomes a tragedy.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

They they were your hero, they can do no wrong. You mean they maybe have flaws, but they're the ones that are gonna save the day. And when they die, they're not saving the day. When Iron Man dies, everybody's like, What? Why did Iron Man die? You know? Um, and it it shakes people up to literally you can actually have emotional, you know, feelings when you walk out of that theater upset.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah, and and how many TV shows have jumped the shark, as they say, because they killed off a popular character because maybe the actor couldn't negotiate the salary they wanted, or the writers just felt it was time for a change, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Too many times in my book. Sometimes I having worked in Hollywood, it's like um hmm, they they get revenge on on the actor and you don't they don't care about the audience, and I like, yeah, is it really mean that much to you to you know kill off that actor so you feel good? Because your audience isn't going to. So yeah. They want to make sure they can't come back.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Do you do you feel there is a fine line between thriller and horror? Something that comes to my mind is Silence of the Lambs. Some people might see that and say it's purely a th thriller. Usually stories that center on law enforcement can be considered a thriller, at least that from my perspective. But some people would see Silence of the Lambs and say, Oh, this is a horror movie. This is about murder uh grizzly murder gri grizzly murders. So what what is the line between thriller and uh horror?

SPEAKER_01 27:52

I think thriller has more suspense.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

So that's why I would put Silence of the Lambs in the thriller category, where if you're just doing horror, you can have kill after kill after kill, you know, and you don't have that big suspense as to who's doing the killing or whatever, but um you generally kind of know, you kind of see it. Um but yeah, thriller, you you're trying to figure out what exactly is going on, there's more suspense.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah, that's a great point. What is your advice for uh aspiring writers, either writers who want to write uh novels or they want to break into Hollywood writing? Does that the system of Hollywood writing does that even exist anymore where you you know you just you write the best script that you can, try to get an agent and sell it to a studio or production company?

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yes, how does that work? Yeah, yes. Um or try to get a book sold. Um I don't I'm not really too interested in that having been there, done that, but um you have to write it. That is the number one thing that doesn't happen. There are more people who successfully make it to the top of the highest mountain in the world than there are people who finish a book.

unknown 29:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

By about 59%. There's like 60% of the people who try to make it to the top of the mountain make it. The people who start a book maybe one percent finish. So the whole thing that's insane. So you need to be able to sit down, write a book, not be judgmental. You have to psychologically tell yourself, I'm an author, I'm writing. Um, and you need to not worry about the book when you're writing it the first time. Don't think you're gonna get everything perfect when you first write it. That's not the goal. The first goal is to get the plots and everything down on on paper and write it. And then you go back and you start the editing process and the oh, I want to move this around, or that should happen before this chapter, or you're writing away, and all of a sudden you go, you know, I should really explain that better, uh, you know, so you can go back. And that's the beauty of writing. It's not you're not carving it in stone, mind you. Writing, right? And it's it's it's a beast of its own, like in backdraft, it's a beast, it has its own life. And you might come up with something that you're writing and go, wait, I didn't even think about doing that. I've had characters take off on me, but I'll be like, wait, you know, he's he's gonna be doing this instead. So even though that wasn't in my plot structure, that's okay. And then finding the right editor, so you want someone who's in your genre, who's interested in your book. I will tell you I made the mistake on the first couple of books, hiring people I thought were, you know, excellent editors, and they really weren't into the books, and so I will get these comments, interviews about you should have paid for an editor, and I'm like, but I did. So uh don't assume I didn't, but I finally found one, you know, and that makes a world of difference because if they're into it and they're reading it and they they'll give you ideas and other things, you know. I wish you kind of would have done that. Funny, because I was thinking about doing that, so I'll go back and do it. So, you know, there is um, but it's like I said, writing, start with 15 minutes a day. Find a place. I went and bought a new desk, I got a nice little plant, it looks out the window, and I sat down and started writing 15 minutes a day. Now I write much longer. Um, and my dog will tell me when it's time for a walk. So uh my writing partner who's laying next to me right now. But um, yeah, so you know, it's uh it you you grow into it and you start getting a rhythm and you don't expect your first well, my first book came out, I got four awards. I was shocked. Yeah. So um I was like, oh, I must be on the right path. But you start getting your voice and you start learning, you know, what what do you feel, you know, how you want to phrase things, what things you like, you know, and uh you start writing with your voice. And that's where people ask me about chat, you know, AI, and I go, AI can't write in your voice, and it can't write in human. And um, you know, if you're doing a how-to book, then maybe you know it's black and white, you can use AI. But for fiction, at least at this time, I would not use uh AI for fiction writing because things happen in our lives, which I throw in my books. I I worked with uh I worked for Steven Spielberg and Jeffrey Katzenberg, uh, DreamWorks, and you know, kind of notice that you know they throw things in where you know life is things that you just like, you know, everyday life, and that's what I throw into my character. Something tragic is happening, or they're looking at something real close up, and and I have something thrown in there that like happens out of the blue. And that's because that's what happens in life. Like I always say, you can be walking across the room and all of a sudden trip. If you don't have that in your book, you know, there's no humanity to it. So you need to add that, make sure that's in there.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

What do you think about using AI as a tool? Uh the way you would use a thesaurus or Google something or yes, as a tool, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Give you ideas. Maybe you have a sentence that you keep writing and rewriting and it's just not clicking for you. Um absolutely. Uh, it is definitely a tool. Uh it makes nice little emails. Um you know, there's certain things you have to do for the blurb on the back of the book, you know, certain things that AI is not familiar with, but doesn't mean that you can't write it and then you know let it doctor it up a little bit and pick and choose what you want to do. I have a tendency to, and sometimes I I just don't even use it, but I will ask AI, give me five versions of, and then whatever the sentence is or what the idea is, and then uh, you know, oh you know, blend two and three, you know, because I like this part of this and like this part of this, but I you know uh I you manipulate it, but you're using it as a tool. So it's you know, you're still overseeing that.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yeah, I actually have um a book called The Emotion Thesaurus, because I tend to overuse like smiling to express happiness. It's like so that I could see using AI for like what's a no what's a different way to express happiness other than smiling or right, right.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

But you you but you have to actually ask AI that so when it's when it's if you're having it write a story, it'll say smile. It'll maybe you smile ten times.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

But as as you learn as a writer that you are, that you don't really say smile, you say the corners of his go up and his eyes got brighter, and he started nodding in agreement. Yeah you know, so you describe it instead of say it.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

That's that's great, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

And you don't even have to use that word, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Right, yeah, great idea. I think I want to steal that from you. You can't.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

You always want to talk about the emotion and the expression and everything on the human face, you know. And people know what that is because we all have the same expressions and things, and you know, and you're curious, an eyebrow goes up, you know, shakes his head like what his shoulders go up. So you you describe that in the book instead of saying he was curious.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Showing, not telling.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Yeah. Do are you um someone who plots everything, a lot a plotter versus a panther? Do you plot everything out, or are you more just kind of write as as the story comes to you?

SPEAKER_01 35:20

I kind of write as the story comes to me. I have a skeleton of a plot, maybe. But I see my books, I think, in motion pictures. I think I don't know if I've trained my brain that way, having worked in the industry for 30 years, but I can see everything I'm writing. You know, just like what I was directing. You can see what you want to shoot, even though even if you've done sketch outs, which you want to do, but you know, the layouts, but I always know what the camera angle is, how I want to see things. And I know as a director I have told people I want to do this, and I've had the cameraman go, that's impossible. And I'll go, no, watch. And I'll move their camera and do da-da. And they'll be like, Oh my gosh, you know. So uh I see my stories uh in my head, which don't go in there. So um uh Orson Cutters living in there right now. But uh yeah, so that's how I operate. So I don't really I'm more of a pantser than a plotter.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, that that's so cool that uh you've been a director because that's I'm a I I'm a writer and filmmaker as well, and and sometimes I f I feel like there's kind of a perception uh that you should pick a lane, that you should either be a writer or a filmmaker, or you know, you should do one thing or the other. It seems but it's to I see it as it's all storytelling. And it's just one is using uh the the printed word or words, and the other is using visual imagery.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

So I always say I'm a storyteller because both mediums, right? Yeah, film versus uh paperback books or whatever. Um you might want to talk to Kevin Cosner who produces, writes, and directs.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

So if you want control of your movie uh as much as you can, and you do that independently away from a studio, then you sell it to a studio, that's how you have that control. Because even if you have a studio funding the film, they have could still have that creative control over you. So, you know, you don't really get to do a lot of that until you have the money to be able to do that, right? And the power to do that. Uh, that's why women are fighting for equal pay, so we can make our own stories awesome. So um, yeah, so definitely, you know, there's it doesn't mean it's always going to work out to your advantage, but it's your baby, it's your path. Schindler's list. That that was, you know, that's Steven's baby. Um I I don't know if you'd accept me saying it that way. But um, you know, that was that's his thing. It's still his thing. The whole um, you know, he has that whole archive that he's building and interviewing people who live through it. So, um, you know, the total control when you're a Spielberg, a cousin, or a you know, a name like that. You have your own studio, Tyler. Uh, you know, he has his own studio. And um that's why women want that extra pay. We want to be that equally as creative because we've got those stories, and and the thing with women characters over film over time is they're flattened. Um, I was watching a series that just came out a few weeks ago, and I was watching it, and I'm like, the female characters are flat. And and I said, I'll bet you to myself or my dog, I'll bet you there's no female writers in the scripts. And I went and looked at at IMDB and sure enough they were all men. And I went, you don't get the idea of how women express what they go through, and you don't know how to convey that because you're not showing it. And so, you know, and women have to do that. Um, you know, I don't expect a man to know what a woman thinks and feels, and I don't expect uh, you know, vice versa. And so when I wrote my first book with a male leading character, I went and found a male editor. And I said, The reason I'm hiring you I want to make sure that my main male character in this book is male. You know, I I tell me if there's things written that the guys don't do or things that you know. Um, but he he was he said, No, you you nailed it. Um I'm sure I didn't nail the first couple of drafts, but you know, eventually uh you nailed it, and that might become with my uh media background. But you know, that is something that we need to be conscious of, not flattening characters, not just oh, she's she's gonna scream and fall and trip and they're gonna you know the guy's gonna kill her. I'm so tired of seeing that scene. That you know, uh I know women who would fight back and give that suspect a run for their money.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

And you know, and you're just starting to see that in films because more women are make are able to make films because they're making the same money to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Yeah, one thing I get bored with as a viewer is seeing an actress who's a really, really good actress being relegated to just the supportive wife or girlfriend. Like she is only there to, whenever the man feels some kind of dilemma, to say supportive things while she's folding laundry or do doing something.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Exactly, exactly what they're there for, to up the men's role. And um, no, we have our own role in life. You know, I all most of my girlfriends once married, but most of us are single and have decided to be that way, uh, you know, because we're you know, we don't want to be delegated to just supporting role. That's real life. Gotta put that in the films, you know, gotta add that complexity that you give to the men, you need to add it to the women. So you need to have uh you know a strong woman on your writing team who's gonna say, no, that's not right, or we need to add, you know. So um, and it's it's coming around. It culture's a hard thing to change.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

But you know, it's it's coming around. I mean, Bridgerton is all about complex women. So, you know, why is that such a high-rated film? That and they show men naked quite often in that right? It's the men or the naked people in the show. So, um, but you know, they're complex women and hiding behind masks and literally, and you know, and someone's writing stories about the town and everybody's complex and what's going on. And it it's not just I'm gonna go cook now and make, you know, going to the kitchen to cook now and solve your problems and take, yeah. So definitely.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

You mentioned i that some progress is being made. I know Gina Davis has that institute where she examines the status of women in the industry, and it just seems like, especially with directing, it just seems like it just stays the same every year. It's like such a small percentage and and I guess it helps with directors like Chloe Zhao being nominated for best director sometimes, but it it's w what is your sense of the you know, especially behind the scenes as you were saying with writing and directing?

SPEAKER_01 42:09

You know, just like here this is the the example I normally use. When Barbara Strayside made that film, Yentel, best direct the best, you know, everything but director.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Barbie comes out, best everything but director. So has it really changed that much? No, the culture is still it is a male-dominated culture in Hollywood from the start. And uh, you know, like I said, culture's the hardest thing, but you know, when we get, you know, the equal everything, then we can start doing the same things and bringing forward, you know, the kind of films that we want to see or learn about or the characters we want to build with substance. So yeah, you're right. There aren't that many female directors. Absolutely. In fact, on a set, you might have some issues as a female director unless you have the same people you've been working with. When you go to say something and do something, they'll be like, no, no, you know, they have they feel like they have the right to tell you I'm sorry, who's the director? Yeah, you know, and you have to, you know, and then by putting your foot down there, oh you're such a you know, yeah. No, I if it was a guy, a guy would be saying the same thing to you. So, you know, um, yeah, so it it it could that can happen.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Yeah, like you said, culture is hard to change and progress unfortunately isn't l linear. It's like take one step forward, then two steps back, and yeah, just the same cycle keeps going over.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

We we as women need to be assertive and not aggressive, and you know, and just too bad you we don't need everybody to love us. I'm there to do a job, and you know, if you don't like the fact that I'm telling you what to do and you're a guy, get over it or find another job. And I, you know, I literally, you know. I always start off my sets with I'm the director, you know, and I I do want to hear ideas, I'm the final word. You know, um if you've seen Star Trek, the captain's always the final word. He asks all his people who are knowledgeable, and he makes the decision. And you know, and I use that because everybody understands that uh, you know, story, that parable in a sense. And um you know, and I always would start it off. And if you're going to be an issue, da da da, I don't mind losing you in a heartbeat. You are replaceable. You know, so people know exactly where I stand when I start before we ever start shooting and reading script.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

So that's that's obviously it's it's necessary to set that tone rather than I have found it. Yeah, people not taking you seriously and undermining you and like you said, trying to co-direct or even with that, you'll still get people doing that.

unknown 44:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

So watching the Blake Lively and the other thing, I'm like, you know, my my brother's my brother follows Hollywood more than I do, and he'll call me up and go, What's going on with that? And I'll be like, Yeah, don't worry about it. You know, just write it off. I don't know why you're even interested. Yeah, you know, so I said I almost like a PR stunt because I don't think anybody would have gone to see the movie had those two lawsuits not been out there. So, you know, you you never really know. That's unfortunate. You know, is this a whole stunt to get you to go see the movie and find out what's going on? I don't know. So, um, you know, what's true, what's not. I wasn't on set, I don't know. I'm not talking to anybody who was on set. So, you know, who knows?

unknown 45:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Well, okay, it's just been fascinating talking to you. So if people want to get your books and get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_01 45:44

I have my own website, which is my full name, K-A-Y-A-Oliver, O L I V E R dot com. And my books are also on Amazon. So you can author Central Mean uh or look up Blood Seed and then click on my uh author in info down below and see all the books. I have 15 books out right now. Most of them, I think every single one of them, but one has won an award, and I did not put that one up for an award. So um Blood Seed has won an award already, and Fear Struck has won three, and it's only been out since December. So um I really enjoy my writing, and though the uh awards just you know pat on the back. But when I hear people say, Oh, you know, I read that book and I couldn't put it down, or I like throwing a lot of uh true information, as you know, in fiction you have to have real information, and I like to do a lot of research, and people will say, Oh my god, I didn't know that was true, and I had to go look it up because I read your book, and oh my gosh, you you write on the money, you know. So I love it when they they they grow also when they read my books. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

Yeah, and I don't know if you've ever considered writing a book on writing about how to write in the different formats, script format, novels, how to translate directing experience into storytelling through a novel. I think I think a lot of writer writers would be interested in that.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Uh on my website, if you do kaolliver.com backslash blog, you'll have all my stuff on, you know, for anybody who's an indie writer, a beginner writer, tips on how building characters, how to write, you know, the books and all of that. I stick to the books mostly. Hollywood's kind of behind me. And Hollywood is co constantly changing because when I started, big cameras, you had to tune them, big batteries to go with them, and now you're walking around with them on your phone. So, you know, a lot of technology has changed a lot of the industry. And there are script writing um things that you can buy. No, that formats that you can buy that just plug stuff in. So it's it's the telling of the story, as you know, that is the bottom line of any good Oscar winning film. It all starts at someone's typewriter or writing or however you're doing it and building that story, and if that story's not good, the rest of it falls apart. So you really have to start with the story and building your characters and your storylines.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Absolutely. Okay, I look forward to reading your books, and I'll definitely check your blog out.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Okay, yes, please. It's free. You don't have to give me your email address or anything. I want to be able to help people, uh, you know, discover the things I've already learned, and hopefully, you know, they don't make the same mistakes they make their own.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

So yeah, we all do. But uh that's the the beauty. Like I said, it is a beast, it is an animal, it is alive, and you can manipulate it. It's not like you're chiseling out of marble, you know, you're working with clay. So uh, and that clay can turn into a golden statue. But yeah, so absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks again, Kay.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Absolutely. Thank you for listening to the Culture Beats Podcast. If you like this content and would like to lend your support, please leave us a review, a rating, andor a comment. That helps other people discover the podcast. Culture Beats is an independent endeavor. Views expressed by guests are their own. Thanks again, and talk to you soon.