Pee-wee's Big Adventure (1985, Tim Burton) with Jesse Thorn - Criterion Collection Spine #1293

“The regular world still has something special for someone who is weird.” 

In this episode of Why This Film?, I'm joined by comedian, broadcaster, and Maximum Fun founder Jesse Thorn to explore Pee-wee's Big Adventure (1985), the feature film debut of Tim Burton and one of the most unique comedies of the 1980s.

Released in 1985, Pee-wee's Big Adventure follows Pee-wee Herman, played by Paul Reubens, as he embarks on a cross-country journey to recover his stolen bicycle. What begins as a simple quest unfolds into a surreal road movie through a hyper-stylized version of America filled with bikers, truck drivers, cowboys, movie sets, roadside attraction dinosaurs, and unforgettable characters (any Large Marge fans out there?). 

Jesse Thorn brings his perspective as both a lifelong Pee-wee fan and a comedy writer to the conversation. He helps unpack how Paul built one of the most unusual personas ever to reach mainstream audiences. Jesse wrote the essay for Criterion's release of the film.

We discuss:

• Jesse's experience with the character Pee-wee Herman and the man Paul Reubens.
• How Tim Burton's first feature film established aesthetics that would define his career
• The film's blend of genres
• The morality, sexuality, and ambiguity of Pee-wee
• Why Pee-wee's Big Adventure deserves its place in the Criterion Collection

Whether you grew up quoting the movie or are discovering Pee-wee Herman for the first time, this conversation explores how a film that feels completely ridiculous is also surprisingly precise.

You can find more from Jesse Thorn below:

Maximum Fun

Pee-wee's Big Adventure: Why Don't You Take a Picture by Jesse Thorn

Follow Jesse Thorn - Instagram

Hollywood ManeStays - Not a pin, not a clip. Just Better.

Transcript

Ron (00:00)
Hello everybody. My name is Ron and welcome to why this film podcast where we explore the artistry, cultural impact and legacy of movies in the Criterion collection. Each episode I sit down with experts and cinephiles to ask why was this film chosen for the collection and why is it still matter today? In this episode, we're heading to Paul Rubin's playground. is Pee Wee's big adventure spine number 1293, the 1985 feature debut from director Tim Burton part road movie, live action cartoon, an American fairy tale.

Pee Wee's Big Adventure introduces us to one of the most singular screen personas of the eighties. The film follows Pee Wee Herman, played by Paul Rubens, as he leaves the comfort of his idyllic home and is driven to recover his stolen bike. Join us as we walk through the cross-country journey, scene by scene, through a hyper-stylized version of America. My guest today is Jesse Thorne, a comedian, broadcaster, and one of the most influential figures in independent podcasting. Jesse is the host and producer of Bullseye on NPR.

as well as the cohost and producer of Judge John Hodgman and the cohost of Jordan Jesse Goh. He's also the founder of Maximum Fun, one of the first independent audience supported podcast networks. And in 2023, he led the company through a transition to a fully employee owned cooperative. Jesse began his career in 2000 while still a student at UC Santa Cruz, launching The Sound of Young America, which later became Bullseye.

Within a few years, he became the youngest nationally distributed host in public radio history. Fast Company once called him, quote, the most important person in entertainment you've never heard of, which feels especially fitting for a conversation about a film built around a singular comic persona that became culturally permanent. Jesse's work consistently treats comedy as craft, something intentional, constructed, which makes him the perfect guest to help unpack the movie as strange and enduring.

as Pee Wee's big adventure. And with that, here's my conversation with Jesse Thorne.

Ron (01:46)
What is your history with this character of Pee Wee Herman? How did he come into your life?

Jesse (01:53)
Pee Wee's Big Adventure is one of the first movies that I remember seeing in a movie theater. And the thing that I remember most vividly is the opening scene where Pee Wee's bunny rabbit slippers are sniffing the plush carrot. And my mom took me and my mom is a real pop culture weirdo.

She's not neurotypical and just appreciates very odd things. And so I think even when I was a kid, like maybe sometimes I was a little suspicious to go see something that my mom had suggested I should go see. I saw it in San Francisco as a kid and it blew my mind.

And by the time we had a VCR, it was a movie that I probably watched.

30 times and I didn't own it until high school. So like I'm talking about going back to the blockbuster to rent it again.

and then of course, when Playhouse came onto television, that was also really important for me because my parents were divorced and they divorced when I was very young and they split, I split time between the two of their houses. And the only non 50 50 part of that split was that Fridays I was at my mom's house, which meant that Saturday mornings I was at my mom's house.

And my mom would come in to watch Pee Wee's Playhouse with me. And she, never in a million years would she have watched Garfield and Friends. ⁓ But Pee Wee was up a rally. Pee Wee made sense to her. and growing up in San Francisco, I think the things that were weird about Pee Wee to some were not weird to me and

Ron (03:13)
But Peewee is up her alley.

Jesse (03:25)
family.

Ron (03:26)
Did you watch the documentary on Paul Rubin's last year?

Jesse (03:30)
Yeah, I did.

In fact, I interviewed the director on my my public radio show. Yeah.

Ron (03:34)
Did that bring, that brought a real renewed focus to Paul's life? Does knowing more about him and his personal life and struggles that he went through change how you see the character of Pee-wee or does it maybe just give you more context?

Jesse (03:49)
I I was grateful to watch it because it felt like such an accurate reflection of my experience of working with Paul in that.

Paul had pitched KCRW, which is a public radio station here in LA, on having his own KCRW show. He went in and did one of their shows and was like, I should have a Pee-wee Herman KCRW show. And luckily, I had a friend who worked there. And he was like, no one at KCRW can be trusted to make this show. You should hire Jesse Thorne to make this show. ⁓

And I didn't, I didn't ask for enough money, particularly given the fact that it took two years to make. Paul was extraordinarily gracious and

Ron (04:29)
jeez.

Jesse (04:35)
extraordinarily persnickety about Peewee, the character. And yeah, you know, I mean, it's his life's work. He had every bit the right to be that way. And he also like...

Ron (04:39)
I got that sense watching the documentary last year.

Jesse (04:49)
you know,

He's a genius, know, and no one is like, no one was going to protect Pee for him. I was very gracious. I was very grateful that ⁓ I had a great colleague and producer, Julia Smith. And we had a lot of great help from Josh Myers, who's a brilliant comedy writer and performer to bring together the elements of the playhouse and add jokes to it. Because I think maybe Paul didn't wanted it to just basically be a music show hosted by Pee Wee Herman without jokes in it.

Paul also didn't improvise at all as as Pee Wee so we really had to script it out like my what I anticipated like the show that I imagined making with him was something like Something like a little playhouse a little playhouse segment and then a conversation with a band and we could just bring in Devo All these amazing music acts that he knew and he really wanted wall-to-wall scripted everything

Ron (05:38)
sounds like a late night talk show style.

Jesse (05:39)
Yeah. Yeah. He wrote and

he wrote all these like, ⁓ he, was like, can, we can edit it. Like you can do as much time as you want. We'll use the good parts. but he, he wanted to do these sort of like, he wrote all these like fa he chose the songs he wanted to play and wrote these sort of factual.

liners for the songs, like intros and outros for the songs that Josh and me, especially Josh, had to convince him to put jokes into. was really, like it was, it was like completely maddening the entire time, but also he was such a sweet guy and he is Pee Wee Herman. Like he created Pee Wee Herman, that is him. So you, there's no real, you can't just be like, I know what Pee Wee Herman is like better than you, Paul Rubens. So.

that film and it was, it was one of the biggest challenges of my professional career was also definitely the greatest honor of my professional career to get to work with my hero. And at one point I emailed Judd Apatow.

I know it's not like and Judd Apatow hang out, but I had his email address, right? And he used to listen to my show sometimes. He may still, I don't know. But I emailed Judd Apatow, who's a very nice dude, and he produced the last Pee Wee movie, which was great. And I was like, hey, Judd, this is really hard.

Like I'm really having a hard time getting Paul to like put jokes into it and like accept edits and, all this stuff. And, he emailed me back. Sounds about right. Good luck.

Ron (07:06)
Thanks for all your help. Well, you get even when watching that documentary last year, you could sense the frustration from the director and from everyone involved in the process just because he is very particular in how he wants to be portrayed. I mean, we'll get into even the film itself. He's credited as Pee Wee Herman. He's not credited as Paul Rubens. This is not just a character to him.

Jesse (07:08)
you

And yeah and-

And you see...

Yeah, and he,

what's wonderful about that film, I think, is that it really reflects the ways that he was a weirdo and all these things, which are the things that are special about him. And it doesn't reflect them in a judgmental way or like a look at this crazy guy kind of way or something.

It admires him because he is admirable or was admirable. And so, yeah, I thought that was a beautiful movie. I was so impressed with that movie. And I learned a lot about a guy who's, you I'm a professional comedy nerd and he's my favorite ever. So it was impressive to me that I learned so much.

Ron (08:04)
It's heartbreaking in parts.

Jesse (08:05)
I didn't know, we didn't know he was sick. We

I mean, I knew he was sick, but I didn't know he was, like, knew, like there was a point where I was emailing with his assistant and she's like, oh, he's dealing with some health stuff right now or something, but we didn't know he was sick, sick. You know, he's a 65 year old man or whatever. We figured he's just sick.

Ron (08:23)
on death's door, essentially.

You know, after watching it, was really thinking about it and I couldn't come up with another example of something that was so avant-garde having such a wide audience as a character that Pee had. And this is, know, pre-internet days. I don't know if this is ever repeatable

Jesse (08:37)
I mean...

there are a few things in that kind of like time period. Like if you think of Madonna and Cyndi Lauper, Cyndi Lauper of course made the theme music for Pee-wee's Playhouse. If you think of RuPaul, Alf, Devo, there were things that were in the broader popular culture that broke through,

because I think one of the things that that documentary got right about Peewee is how profoundly queer the character is and the POV, the aesthetic. All those things broke through, but I mean, you think like all that is true, yes, but also, Peewee Herman got famous going on David Letterman, which is similarly weird. It's also incredible that Letterman was famous, given how weird he is, but-

He's the furthest thing from camp, So I think it's just reflects what an extraordinary character it is and how incredible Paul was at doing it.

Ron (09:38)
Do you think that audiences consciously understood the queerness of Pee Wee at that time? Or is it something that maybe just wasn't so widely understood at the time? it was more of a, he wasn't really being categorized. Do you actually say in your essay that the film answers questions, man or boy, sexual or asexual, campers sincere with yes?

Jesse (09:43)
I think there were a lot of aud...

Yeah, I mean, I

think that's true. Not to sound like a Gen Z person posting on the internet, but it's definitely a liminal character, But even more than it's a liminal character, it is a yes and Carrie. It's a both and character, right? I think that plenty of people understood him to be camp and queer, that that was

part of the understanding for plenty of people. mean, like I said, I grew up four blocks from Castro Street, like in San Francisco. There's no question that my mom understood him to be queer. I think...

Ron (10:29)
that's really interesting

to me was born in the mid 80s. So I'm coming to Peewee as he's already established. Big Adventure's already out. Peewee's Playhouse, I'm young watching. I thought, look at this weird uncle that has all the cool toys. Not even consciously knowing there might be something a little different about him.

Jesse (10:41)
Yeah,

But if you think of him wearing lipstick

and rouge and being in this kind of arrested adolescence and so forth, by the time Playhouse comes around, Big Adventure is...

less campy than Playhouse. ⁓ But I think my point here is that on the one hand, there are people who understood it in terms of Paul being specifically gay and participating in gay culture, which he was. But then beyond that, I think that

Ron (11:00)
for sure.

Jesse (11:17)
Queerness more broadly is infused into Peewee. So I think that one of the reasons that people were discomfited by Peewee, I mean, like my comedy partner, Jordan Morris, with whom I do the show, Jordan Jesse Goh, his mother, who's a wonderful woman, the kindest person in the world, said he wasn't allowed to watch it because it was too weird. And the queerness of it,

is what is weird about it. So people who aren't seeing that queerness in terms of gayness, in terms of the idea, because Peewee the character isn't gay. obviously Paul was. But people who don't see it in terms of just like gay or being homophobic still experienced it for sure as queer in the sense that it was outside of

the mainstream understandings of gender and sexuality, adulthood, childhood, etc.

Ron (12:06)
There's a lot of ambiguity in general with that character. He goes on the dating game a few times, The movie sometimes refers to him as kid. Or at least one time someone calls him kid. Like how old is Peewee? You know, there's just like all these different ambiguous kind of thoughts around this character. Yeah, right. Right.

Jesse (12:15)
When I seriously.

How horny is he ⁓ is a real open question. There's

like time, like in Big Adventure, obviously, like Dottie is his girlfriend, but he's constantly trying to avoid having a relationship with her. Then in Big Top Pee-wee, the sequel, which is also, by the way, I...

I watched Big Top Pee Wee a lot fewer times than I did Big Adventure as a kid. And I hadn't seen it in like 20 years. And I went back to watch it thinking, uh-oh, what if I don't like this? And actually it's great. Like it's not, it's not quite as good as Big Adventure, but it's great. and there's a scene in there that he wanted to put in there. They talk about this in the documentary that is the longest kissing scene ever. And so like that, even, even that is like, that is like,

Ron (12:54)
Ha

Right, yes, I remember, yes. That's just.

Jesse (13:06)
querying the idea of what heterosexual romance is on stage, that Peewee kisses this girl, but they just sit there and they just keep kissing until you're uncomfortable. Like it's this absurd sort of camp version of romance on screen, right? So yeah, he's all over the place in those various areas, but that's like, that's the magic of him. it was part of one of the things I wrote about in the essay that,

We had, cut the essay down a lot. added a lot of Tim Burton content cause I realized, oh right, this is a series of Tim Burton criteria. It's not a series of Pee Herman criteria. But, I wrote a lot about his early career where he went not just on the, not just on, uh, the dating game as Pee Wee Herman, but also for many years, he appeared like 30 times or something on the Gong show, which was also hosted by Chuck Berry's doing

all kinds of crazy stuff. ⁓ And a lot of which is very queer coded. I think what he discovered was...

Ron (14:01)
You

Jesse (14:08)
This is all of these things that I love most in the world, like the weird world of America in 1964 or whatever, and all this weird queerness and brashness, bitchiness, I may, all these different things that Paul loved and were like.

I think they just figured out like, this has legs. Like, this isn't just like a thing we go up and do and then come back and do it again in four weeks. Like they put on the original Pee Herman show because they were like, this is the Paul Rubens was realized like, this is the thing that I do that like I could build a show around,

Ron (14:44)
And that he did. He a few shows.

Jesse (14:45)
And then it became his life,

like then it became his life.

Ron (14:48)
Speaking of, you bring up Tim Burton, and I know they were connected just based on the audio, by the way, I wanna go back for one second. Your essay is beautiful, I read it again today. I think it's absolutely wonderful, I highly recommend it to anybody that hasn't read it. It's so well done. And you do talk about Tim Burton, and they were connected because Peewee said they were gonna give him a director for this movie, and he said no. And then that night, he says, there's a great interview with Paul.

Jesse (14:57)
Thank you.

Ron (15:12)
after a screening. can't remember if it was like a 30th anniversary screening or something that comes with the criterion release. And he talks about that night, someone says, you should check out this director. And it's just this serendipitous type of situation where they get connected. And then here comes Tim Burton, who we see Tim's body of work now, all these years later. I think of Pee Wee as bright and the Danny Elfman score is

It's like a circus. But when I think of Tim Burton, I think of dark aesthetic. even though Danny Elfman has worked with Tim on many other of his works, but I feel like looking back, Tim might not have been the first choice based on the aesthetic that I have predetermined. I'm stereotyping in my own mind of what the aesthetics would be.

Jesse (15:56)
I mean, I think A number one, was like literally, Well, if you don't want this person, then you got to find somebody you got a week. And Tim Burton was like under contract and somebody was like, Hey, have you seen Frankenweenie? And he's like, I'll look at it. Right. And it's funny that they're

Ron (16:02)
Yeah, that's insane.

Jesse (16:11)
They both have that kind of, they were early on this. it's that understanding of stiff mid-century American culture, but then also like what's fascinating and amazing about it. Not just like something dark's happening behind these white picket fences or whatever, but

they both are the kind of person who would love Vincent Price. But I think what's what was really interesting to me as I learned more about it as I was working on the essay is, a lot of the visual elements of Pee Wee's Big Adventure were in the script. Like, Paul was clear, the three of us, he and his two collaborators with whom he wrote the film. It's like we wrote that stuff into the script. It wasn't like

Tim Burton came along and was like, yeah, well then there should be a diving bell suit that has an octopus flapping. Yes, exactly. Exactly. But like.

Ron (17:03)
Yeah, I think that all came from Paul's house. I think a lot of stuff came from Paul's house.

Jesse (17:09)
The truth is that if you compare it to Big Top Pewey, which is also full of so many wonderful visual ideas and was directed by Paul, obviously, you see the two things and you're like, Paul and his co-screenwriters had all these incredible visual ideas that were on that paper. And you can put them on screen if you just surround yourself with highly competent

show business professionals, right? But if you have a film that is being directed by an animator.

who is as elegant a visual stylist as could exist in film, you don't get the B plus A minus version of that. You get the A plus version of that. Every idea that was on that script came out 12 out of 10 on the screen because of Tim Burton.

Ron (17:59)
⁓ so

I listened to your Rian Johnson podcast recently and you dive in with him about genres and Rian making genre type movies. And I was thinking about it today and I thought I could probably watch a movie trailer and say that's a Tim Burton movie. It's almost like he he's his own genre. Almost. It's really interesting to me. And then to go back, we have the the

fortune that we can go back in time and say, this is where it started. And there are little streaks in there. When, when Pee-wee is walking in the back alley and you see the big shadow and the buildings behind him, I'm like, Ooh, there's Tim Burton. There's a dream sequence where you see the almost the, think there's black and white checkered floor. And I'm like, well, that's going to show up a bit in a few years. So whenever he makes Beetlejuice, it's, love going back and seeing these first works of these artists.

Jesse (18:44)
Yeah,

there's a lot of expressionism in the movie aesthetically that is very typical of Tim Burton elsewhere, especially in the scary parts, but not just in the scary parts.

Like, I think that there could be the temptation to kind of shoot it straight always and let it play like almost a television show because there's so much to look at, and it's comedy. Usually you just put the people in the middle of the frame.

There's a lot of long shadows and checkerboard floors and, you know, castle walls.

Ron (19:20)
Yeah, there are some of those parts as a kid where I think, okay, where's the remote so I can hit the fast forward button? This is a little too scary.

Jesse (19:26)
Large Marge is the thing that for people of my generation was like life-changingly terrifying. And that is a hundred percent of Tim Burton expression. Like Tim Burton was like, I want to put claymation into this movie. And Large Marge terrified a generation of children and the clowns and the dinosaurs are also both very scary in dream sequences. But even things like

there's a sequence towards the beginning of the film where he fights Francis in a sort of Godzilla parody that takes place in Francis's gigantic swimming pool. This rich kid, right? Yeah, thank you. His, thank you. And like, that is shot with like life and death stakes. Like it's not goofy at all. Like it's so not goofy. Like it's goofy in the sense that it's two

Ron (19:56)
no, no, no, that's that's Francis's bathtub, sir. That is not a swimming pool.

the music, the music contributes to that.

Jesse (20:12)
grown man children fighting in an enormous bathtub full of toy boats. But it is

Ron (20:19)
Well, Francis

is eating, he's putting the toy soldiers in his mouth and spitting them out

Jesse (20:21)
Yeah,

but it's like scary. Like when they're fighting, it feels like someone could get drowned.

Ron (20:27)
So are you ready to dive into the film itself here? So we open up with, it's a circus like score by Danny Elfman. Tim and Paul do an audio commentary together and they said that they don't have anything going on on the screen for the credits because they wanted to save money. So it was just a black screen in credits and a dream sequence of Peewee winning the Tour de France.

Jesse (20:30)
Yeah, let's do it.

Ron (20:48)
Pee Wee is awakened by his alarm clock and we get that iconic Rube Goldberg machine. And this is a lasting memory for me in my childhood. Based on your essay, you have a similar feeling about this Rube Goldberg machine to make his breakfast. I wanted it so badly. I wanted the machine. I wanted the bike. I kind of wanted Francis's swimming pool, bathtub. I wanted all that stuff. The script said a machine makes breakfast and Burton and the effects team took that to

a completely other level. When you watch it, do you have that rush of nostalgia when you're looking at it again?

Jesse (21:15)
Yeah, I mean.

of course. Yeah.

I mean, I have the rush of nostalgia for the confusion I felt as a child every time because of the tone of the dream sequence that comes immediately, immediately beforehand, which is like sort of arch and beautiful. And, as he wins the Tour de France, you're like, what is going on? We thought this was a funny movie. Like, what is this? Is when you're a child, and then that like rush of like the contrast between that

sort of ethereal feeling of that dream intro. And then just the rush of the concreteness of gears turning and things squishing and, and they always, one of the things about Paul Rubin's is, and it's something that he shares with Tim Burton is these are art school kids. They are always going to hire a cool kid to make it.

Ron (22:05)
Ha

Jesse (22:05)
And it led to huge problems making Playhouse because no one that actually worked on the show had ever actually done anything besides go to art school.

Ron (22:17)
That's incredible to me. Every time I hear that, I'm thinking there's something wrong here. There has to be some people there that knew what they were doing, but the people at the top.

Jesse (22:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, he didn't make it.

He spent all his money just trying to hold together a production that was made by a bunch of amateurs who were all brilliant art geniuses, not practical television making people. So anyway, every production designer that worked on this, everyone, they're all like, it's not like we went and hired the top Hollywood crafts people, although they were all brilliant craft people. It's always like, they're like hiring punk rock guys,

and the animation school equivalents in Burton's case, right? And that is what gives it this life. And it also introduces you to this idea of the world that Pee Wee lives in, not just in terms of how fantastical it is, but in terms of its relationship to kind of ideas of what America is, right? That he lives in this

insane version of the, like I said, 1960, let's say. And that is introduced by every every googie element of the interiors, every atomic table reflects that it also reflects like what was cool in 1986. But if you were hip and with it, but

It is like this, establishes that world with every one of those kind chrome kitchen tables,

Ron (23:44)
It's something that I can watch. That's, that's an opener with no dialogue that I could watch over and over and over again. You catch something that the production design is just ridiculous. I don't know. I think Paul even says, yeah, that's from my house. I brought that in. Or Tim will say, yeah, we found this. We brought this in.

Jesse (23:50)
Of course.

I mean, one of the things that the documentary about Paul is about is the fact that he was a collector, a compulsive collector with extraordinary taste of

that kind of thing of the world of his childhood, but not through a flat lens,

Ron (24:17)
And the movie opens when he wakes up and before he starts the machine, he's playing with toys. This is a grown man who gets out of bed and he pretends that his feet are real bunnies sniffing a carrot and he's playing with toys. Now what? What? see, I was going to ask if I was going to ask for your peewee impression. He's brushing his teeth with an oversized tooth. Like he's just doing these silly things that would be, that would be like, why I have

Jesse (24:30)
⁓ Mad Dog!

RAH!

Ron (24:42)
We're gonna be here all night if I go down this route like why is he have tape in the bathroom? Yeah

Jesse (24:44)
Yeah, we just list what's great about his house. People have seen these

scenes. It's extraordinary. And like I said, you know, it is like the thing that ties, obviously, John Waters is much more interested in grotesquery. But if you think of this connection between John Waters, Pee-wee, Tim Burton, David Lynch, that they're all interested in how to

Ron (24:50)
Hahaha.

Jesse (25:07)
pervert mid-century Americana, but not interested in just saying it's dumb. I think there is a sort of boomer thing going on of like tiki-taki little houses, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what they are doing is engaging with what was amazing to them about it as people who saw the world in a different way.

Ron (25:31)
There are lot of references in this film that I didn't understand as a kid, obviously. It almost reminds me a little bit of Pixar movies today where adults can watch it and understand the humor and it just goes right over the kid's heads. ⁓ This isn't like an adult humor thing, but I didn't know who Mr. T was when I was five years old, six years old watching this movie. I know who he is now. I didn't know he was at the time.

Jesse (25:41)
Mm-hmm.

Oh, he was like my, he was my hero. So the idea that the idea that the, idea

that PUE ate Mr. T cereal was so exciting to me. But I think Mr. T is an interesting, I think Mr. T is actually, he, there's a scene when he makes it, when he's making his breakfast, Mr. Breakfast Man gets a Mr. T cereal poured on him. Mr. Breakfast Man being a face that he made on his plate with some pieces of bacon and eggs. Um, and I think Mr. T is.

Ron (25:57)
Well, it's the only thing he ate. that beautiful breakfast made.

Jesse (26:17)
I could have put in that list with RuPaul and Madonna in that Mr. T, like Pee Wee Herman, is this character that lives across media in all these different forms. He's also a human being. Like Mr. T is a man who had a career as a bodyguard, right? He acted in films

as Mr. T not playing Mr. T. He also acted in things as Mr. T playing Mr. T. And he lives in this same kind of like heightened, is this a children's thing? Is this an adult thing? I would put Alf, I've watched a lot of Alf lately, because my daughter got really into Alf. I would put Alf in the same kind of area of like, Alf is obviously not a person, but living in this world that like,

Ron (26:55)
cool.

Jesse (27:02)
that makes you question what the rules of entertainment are.

Ron (27:07)
It's almost like I could take a college course on the character of Peewee and all of his work. It's unbelievable. So my favorite scene is over and he goes out to get his bike. His love. You actually point out in the essay that this is his real love. It's his bicycle. And real James Bond kind of stuff too. When he turns the sprinkler on, I always thought, wow, what a chill neighbor.

Jesse (27:12)
Insanity and the semiotics of it for sure. Yeah, no easy peasy. Yeah.

Ron (27:30)
The neighbor doesn't care that he's just turning this on and leaving for the day.

Jesse (27:34)
I mean,

the film, and I don't know to what extent this is Paul and to what extent this is Tim Burton, because I think it's an unusually deep collaboration between the two of them in terms of what got contributed. Paul, I think, was always sensitive that people understand that it was his film, even though Burton's name is on it. And I think that's fair. It's both of their films, obviously. But it's not like Paul wrote it and handed it to Tim Burton and walked away, right?

I know because I worked with him. does not how we worked. but like every one of those guys, every one of those people that wanders through, everyone that has three lines is such an extraordinary blast of something, and, and it sort of comes together in the scene after his bike is stolen, when they're all in his basement and he's telling them what to do.

person in the film, except I guess maybe Dottie, but even Dottie, the love interest is so distinctive in her sort of loopiness, And she's the one that's really grounded in the whole thing.

Ron (28:33)
Dottie is a fascinating character. We're going to talk about her too and why she would be interested in Pee Wee. But before we do, we meet Francis. Francis, played by Mark Holton, who confesses his love for the bike and he tries to buy it from Pee Wee. Obviously Pee Wee thinks that's the funniest thing he's ever heard in his life. He's literally rolling on the floor laughing. And this is another, it's so stupid. I love it so much. When I say stupid, I don't really mean.

Jesse (28:40)
Francis.

Yeah.

Ron (28:59)
Like it's it is a stupid thing. It's just so silly. I love it so much. This is the first so Seventh episode of this podcast. This is the first one that I have a history with But I grew up with that I could probably we could probably work together and quote back the words of Paul Phil Hartman and I think Michael Barhaw I to say

Jesse (29:00)
no, this is, yeah.

You didn't grow

up watching Ron.

Ron (29:20)
No, but that's also beautiful. Not as funny.

Jesse (29:22)
Very beautiful film. Yeah, not as

funny. Funny, pretty funny.

Ron (29:26)
but not quite at the peewee level. Francis is another grown man who acts like a child. The banter back and forth and the immaturity is just another level. I don't know how old your children are. Yeah, I don't know how old your children are, but this may be less mature type of exchange than they even have.

Jesse (29:35)
You know, my dad says everything's negotiable.

And they all

live, they live in this world where it doesn't, like Peewee lives by himself. Francis lives with his dad.

Ron (29:54)
Why does Pee Wee make money?

Jesse (29:57)
filling his body, hard to say.

But like they all live in this world and then they bring in when Francis decides to steal the bike almost immediately thereafter, he brings in a juvenile delinquent from yeah, like Blackboard jungle to do it for him, who also you're like,

Ron (30:10)
Yeah, I thought it was an extra from Greece or something. was okay.

Jesse (30:17)
This could be a 35-year-old man or a 17-year-old. You do not know. Yeah, and that is like, it's such a, I mean, it's no surprise that Paul was obsessed with Frankie and Annette, right? It's like the same kind of thing. It's like this weird teenager dumb being peddled by 30-year-olds and yeah, it's amazing.

Ron (30:22)
that's so true.

I'm listening to reason. It's so silly. yeah, the Buxtons are not thieves is coming later. So Peewee goes to the shopping Plaza because he has some errands to run and he's spending some money that we do not know how he earns. ⁓ after chaining up his bike, which I did notice this when I was a kid, I remember being able to see the chain coming through where

Jesse (30:44)
you

Yeah,

because of bad pan and scan.

Ron (31:02)
Yeah, they corrected it on the on the criteria.

I was almost disappointed that criterion fixed it. I kind of liked having that. That's a little wink to yeah, we know you saw this as a kid.

Jesse (31:12)
As he pulls

miles and miles of chain out, it is like the classic. There's just a hole on the bottom of the thing that he's pulling it in a circle. In the bottom of the, the paneer. Isn't that what it's called? pannier? Side bag of a bicycle. I think that's right. ⁓

Ron (31:24)
I don't know, listen, your vocabulary, listen, your vocabulary

is more extended than mine. I read your essay and I did have to Google like four words. Like what does that mean?

Jesse (31:36)
I remember that very vividly as well. And that is like such an uncanny moment, not just for that reason, but because of that clown who comes up later. it's such a, I mean, talk about something that is shot expressionistically, like the angles of

Those shots are so extreme. And Peewee is being so insane.

Ron (31:58)
I mean, I don't know, like when he has this conversation with Simone, that's when he seems, I mean, he gives Simone really good advice, but that's really the only time I can think of where he's grounded and.

Jesse (32:10)
Absolutely

essential to Peewee is that he is an insane jerk.

Ron (32:14)
but lovable at the same time. I mean, he goes to the magic shop and says hi to Mario, Mario's magic shop. Mario seems like he genuinely loves Pee-wee. says, my good friend Pee-wee. He loves Pee-wee.

Jesse (32:16)
Yeah, big-

Like that's

ultimately the thing, you you, you suggested why does Dottie like Peewee? Why does, why does Mario love Peewee? Why does even Chuck like Peewee, the owner of the bike shop who has to put up with all of Peewee's baloney and plus Peewee is messing with his only employee. like the reason is how could you not love Peewee? That's the reason. If Peewee was in your life, wouldn't you love

Like it's the same reason why you, any charismatic child.

Ron (32:52)
Well,

if you want to like really break it down and say, name something you don't like about Peewee. And if all you can come up with is sometimes he's a jerk and it's like, okay, then he's like everyone else. You're not really saying anything new. He.

Jesse (33:03)
but he does

live in a world of desperate unchecked impulse. ⁓

Ron (33:07)
Well, you know, there's maybe

there's one person that didn't like Pee Wee besides Francis. And it's the woman that he used the x-ray glasses on in the magic shop, which is so funny. Like that, is a little bit of adult. That's I would say like PG 13 humor. wouldn't even call that adult humor, but even as a kid watching, I don't know what I don't know. And I'm thinking, he can see her bones. That's what an x-ray is for. And watching it as almost a 40 year old man. Now I say, Pee Wee, you naughty boy.

Jesse (33:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And she's such

a, what's the woman from the Marx Brothers movies called Margaret Dumont? Is that the woman from the Marx Brothers movies? She's such a, she's such a that lady. It's, it's like such a, it's such a kind of classic, like, ⁓

Ron (33:36)
I'm not sure.

Jesse (33:43)
Yeah. I mean, in the Pee Herman show, he looks up Miss Yvonne's skirt with a mirror on his shoe. Yeah.

Ron (33:48)
See, I didn't know that until I read your essay, actually.

I didn't know that. Bad peewee.

Jesse (33:53)
Yeah, they dialed it back for Big Adventure.

Ron (33:56)
I love writing like this that they set him up with some gadgets that he's going to use later on in the film. It always bothered me that he never used the boomerang bow tie. And thankfully with this release and the commentary, I know where the boomerang bow tie was supposed to come back. So now I feel like I can finally let go of that 40 year grudge that I've had of why I didn't know.

Jesse (34:05)
Mm-hmm.

This is also,

this scene in the magic shop as he gets his equipment for his adventure, sort of like Q giving James Bond stuff, is reflective of one of the main things that Pee Wee Herman did as a character, which was go on Letterman and pull things out of a bag and yell at Letterman about them. And they were always these kinds of mid-century novelty products. Like it was always light up bow ties and stuff.

Ron (34:25)
Right.

Jesse (34:41)
in some ways, this is like Pee Wee Herman playing the hits of Pee Wee Herman. The one thing people had seen Pee Wee do basically was react to gag gifts from 1965. Yeah.

Ron (34:55)
you just created the rest of my YouTube evening. So thank you for that.

Jesse (34:59)
You're welcome, it's the best.

Ron (35:00)
He leaves the magic shop. goes to check on his bike before going to Chucko Rama's the bike shop. And we are introduced to Dottie played by Elizabeth Daly.

And one of the many things I didn't think about as a kid, but I question now as an adult is why Dottie is interested in Peewee because he's not reciprocating any of that back to her. It doesn't, this doesn't feel like a sexual interest from Dottie necessarily. I think it feels more of like a, I feel like I want to connect with this person on a human level. I think at the end of the movie, she does kind of like get up on her tippy toes to kiss him,

Jesse (35:32)
be describing this from the perspective of a straight guy that went to art high school.

Ron (35:36)
I'm on the edge of my seat now, if you're gonna start with that.

Jesse (35:38)
I was very lucky to do so. I met my wife there. I made out with some real cute girls before that. It was great. I really recommend being a straight guy at arts high school in the theater department specifically.

Ron (35:43)
Congratulations.

Jesse (35:51)
Pee-wee as a character for Dottie is both...

He's a lot of different things, right? He's like a thing that she wants to take care of. He is a thrill for her because he is so...

all over, like she's obviously sighing the whole time, but it's obvious that she is delighted by his outrageousness. And he's also the most charismatic person that's ever walked through her life. So like, think of the chaste romantic relationships between some of the most interesting gay guys at my high school.

and straight girls. And some of which were romantic, I mean, like more people were out at my school in 1997 than at most high schools, because I was at an arts high school in San Francisco, but some people weren't. And I think it reflects that dynamic that it is like this very intense.

and personal relationship that is about her recognizing what is so extraordinary about him, even if it isn't necessarily sexual, like it has a romantic element to it. I think also, I saw versions of this going both directions in relationships that my mom had with men.

Ron (37:02)
Yeah, maybe that's the right word.

Jesse (37:14)
because most of my, many of my mom's best friends were gay men when I was a kid and still. And she was the outrageous one typically. but that same relationship where it is, there is an element of romance to it, even if it is not strictly speaking sexual, that it is about kind of

craving an intimacy from someone who is that compelling,

Ron (37:40)
Well, when Pee Wee finds that his bike is stolen, where does he go right away? He goes back to Dottie. He even says her name, Dottie. And down he goes, he passes out. So there, think that that is almost his way of reciprocating, like showing that she is meaningful to him. I mean, maybe I'm reading way too much into it.

Jesse (37:58)
No,

I think that's absolutely correct. And he is so profoundly self-centered. He is self-centered at absurdum. But the fact that she's the person that he asks for comfort is really meaningful.

Ron (38:12)
Well, the police are not helpful. They won't set up a dragnet for him, unfortunately.

Jesse (38:16)
Yeah,

what leads him to believe the Russians are involved? The Soviets, the Soviets, it's the Soviets, that's better.

Ron (38:19)
⁓ I had that. That's literally the next. That's the next bullet on my list.

Yeah. What exactly leads you to believe the Soviets are involved? I don't. Yeah. Okay.

Jesse (38:28)
You can't even see Phil Hartman pitching that joke.

Ron (38:30)
⁓ 100%.

Absolutely. He goes to Francis. Well, he then realizes, which kills me. Like, isn't this your first thought of who would want my bike? Who would do this? But maybe he wasn't thinking it was personal at the time. He might've thought someone saw this really cool looking bicycle and took it. And he remembers Francis and he goes to Francis house. Guy that looks like odd job from a Bond movie answers the door.

Jesse (38:52)
James Bond movies,

yeah.

Ron (38:53)
And Pee Wee sneaks in and confronts Francis in the bath. And I use the word bath in quotes.

he puts all this effort in. Well, we get the trick gum, so we have the trick gum payoff in this scene too. And you already mentioned how this feels real, but this is another really quotable sequence here too.

I know.

Jesse (39:12)
like drowning him. He's

trying to kill him.

Ron (39:16)
That's not, that's okay. I don't know what this says about me that you seriously just said he's drowning him. He's trying to kill him. My first instinct was to laugh because there's a man in a gray suit and white. What are those shoes? What kind of shoes are those loafers and a red bow tie. Did you notice, I noticed on this latest, if you look in the back, there's a faucet and two handles that are oversized as well. Like you would see.

Jesse (39:28)
Yeah, they're like slip-on, they're loafers, Like tassel loafers, they might even have tassels, yeah.

Ron (39:43)
I don't know if you saw that, but yeah, next time you see that scene, take a look in the back. looks like everything's oversized.

Jesse (39:44)
that rules. I never noticed that.

Ron (39:51)
Peewee then aggressively is seeking his bike. He does a hit on an AM radio show, which Francis just happens to be listening to. And there's posters. He's putting up $10,000 rewards because obviously the person that collects the reward is who stole it. And this is where we have the guy who I said looks like an extra from Greece, who you said could be 17 or 40.

Jesse (40:11)
Yeah, just a classic JD.

Ron (40:13)
And then we head to Pee Wee's basement. This is where I start to see the Burton aesthetic creeping in with the lighting and the dark shadows down in that basement. And Pee Wee is going mad.

Jesse (40:24)
Yeah, mean, you look it looks like they're in a full color version of Nosferatu or something.

Ron (40:31)
Does this feel a bit like, was it the same for you watching this, you're kind of starting to see the Tim Burton peeking through?

Jesse (40:38)
Yeah, for sure. But I also, like

Thematically, like this is a film about the nature of entertainment and particularly filmed entertainment, right? So the fact that they are traveling through this, they're traveling through the world of film, right? It makes sense that they are, it makes sense that they're rear windowing and.

Maltese Falconing and Nosferatu-ing and among all the other things that they do, and I'm sure that they would have loved to have more High Plains Drifter in the cowboy scenes if they had the money, you know what I mean? But, but yeah, I think that they really, I think that they both were really invested in

Ron (41:15)
to a 90 minute film.

Jesse (41:24)
not a parody, but a hyper real version of.

the world of cinema, Like it's not a joke about.

noir.

And the dream sequences aren't a joke about, Nosferatu or whatever.

they are a hyper real version of that. They're like, what if you push that 10 % further? What if you push that a little bit into madness, but also absurdism, like it's also silly,

Ron (41:47)
And it all works.

Yeah, yeah, and it definitely works. It works now. There's just something about it that I have trouble articulating, which is why this podcast exists. So I can have help in articulating this because you're right. it endures even 40 years later.

Jesse (41:59)
And I mean...

And I think it is distinctive, it is worth noting that when the film was released, it was not received in that way. It was not received as a masterful tone poem of aesthetics. It was generally received as the world's shittiest Buster Keaton. it was a time when film critics were very invested in.

The only good comedy is Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin. And that this was a pastiche.

was its worst quality as far as they were concerned.

As far as they were concerned, they were not picking up the querying that Paul at all were putting down. They were picking it up as, what if we did a crappy version of everything that they're traipsing through in the film?

Ron (42:47)
It's funny to think that the year that Out of Africa won the Oscar for Best Picture, the enduring thing for me is Pee-wee's Big Adventure.

Jesse (42:55)
Sorry, out of Africa. I've never seen out of Africa, but it's good.

Ron (42:56)
Sorry to shit it

You know what? Neither of I so I guess I shouldn't shit on it too much Because I haven't seen it so Peewees told by Madame Ruby The fortune teller that his bike is in the Alamo in the basement And she sends him a stray This is where I really started questioning where Peewee gets his money from is he collecting unemployment? Like what is happening because he then has to hitchhike

He doesn't just go buy a bus ticket like he tries to do to come home without any money. Presumably then he had the money before.

Jesse (43:21)
Right.

I haven't seen the movie Pollyanna, but the structure of this film came from two things. One was initially Paul's idea was they would just rewrite Pollyanna, but it would have Pee Wee Herman instead of Pollyanna. The second thing is he bought a copy of a screenwriting book and it wasn't story. It was one from before that. I wrote it in the essay. can't remember which one it was, but one of the famous screenwriting books.

and then just did everything that they said to do. He's like, we literally like every act break is on the right page of this number of screen writing, know, screen pages. after 30 pages is the first act break, after 60 pages is the second act break or whatever it is.

they figured road trip movie, they could have a bunch of things roll through, but it's also like in some ways absurdly conventional.

Ron (44:11)
Well, I love how you framed it and you broke it down to its basics, which is you have our hero and his love is stolen by the villain and the hero has to go get his love back. And when you break it down like that, it is really a simple story. It just so happens that his love is an inanimate object.

Jesse (44:28)
Right, exactly. And he's called to be a hero. Yeah, that's an amazing movie.

Ron (44:37)
Incredible. He decides to hitchhike and he's picked up by a man named Mickey who broke a very serious law. Do you have a memory of this seeing this label on mattresses that said do not remove for penalty of law?

Jesse (44:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, yeah, the do not

remove under penalty of law. I do remember that being on mattresses. Yes, that must've been on mattresses until 1990 or something. he's like a character from another one of these kinds of

exploitation movies, like a prison break movie from 1960, 1965. That same kind of mid-century American international pictures kind of thing is what this character is. And it's also, I think,

one of the gayest parts of the movie. ⁓ I think that, that's always part of the subtext of anything that's that hyper masculine in a masculine world as a prison break movie, but prisons, especially because of, absence of women. And then, Paul, they make it through by, they make it through the roadblock by Paul dressing up like a beautiful lady, or Peewee dressing up like a beautiful lady.

Ron (45:25)
Hmm, interesting.

Jesse (45:48)
And it's like suffused with this sort of like

gonna sound ridiculous, but I think I mean it. Potential for sexual violence? Like, there's this question of what is their relationship that is through the entire time that they're in the car together. ⁓

Ron (45:56)
Hmm.

He does give Peewee

a bit of a look as he, takes the goatee and the mustache off, he does look Peewee up and down a little bit and Peewee's just sitting there bouncing around in the seat like all is well.

Jesse (46:14)
Yeah,

yeah, it's really, it's really something else.

Ron (46:17)
Mickey is played by Judd Omen and he's one of many B-movie actors that appear. do you get the sense that this helps contribute to the feel of these are real people? Like Peewee is a real person. It's Peewee played by Peewee Herman and he's also coming across these real people.

Jesse (46:32)
Yeah, I I think that the many actors who fill the periphery of the film.

They're not the kind of real people that David Letterman would have been making fun of at that same time, right? It's not like bringing on Harvey Picar and you're going, ha ha ha, what a crank.

It's also not like they're like making a Ken Loach movie or something and like it's for verisimilitude. What they are is authentically performative. Like all of these people are distinctive forms of performer. And like you mentioned the music being circus-like. Big Top Pee is obviously a circus film. Paul grew up in a town in Florida that was the off season home of Ring of the Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus. ⁓

Ron (47:11)
Right, right.

Jesse (47:15)
And I think that, and of course, Pee Wee is deeply inspired by children's television in the 1950s and 60s. And I think that all of those are very presentational as RB movies, right? Like, I think it is more like the sense of, you know, it's not about their star power, but it's about, it's the same kind of thing as like when people talk about Tarantino's understanding of like what's special about Pam Grier and then,

putting her in a movie, you know what I mean? It is that like understanding of what is the performative quality of someone, the not real quality of someone that is authentic.

Ron (47:51)
Well, when Pee Wee's kicked out, meet another one of these B-movie actors in your nightmare fuel as a child was, was large March. before we move on to large Marge when Pee Wee's driving, which I'm not convinced he's ever driven a car because of the way that when he, when Mickey asked him to hold the wheel. And then you can see, if you look at the bottom of the road signs that have the crazy, turns coming.

Jesse (47:57)
Large Marge.

Yeah, very possible he is not. Yeah.

Ron (48:12)
If you look at the bottom, can see them pulling the signs past the camera with a rope. They didn't edit that out, but they edited out my chain that I wanted to keep in there. So Peewee's picked up, ⁓ and the glasses that he gets from the magic shop. This is where he uses those. And we have some live animals.

Jesse (48:16)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Yep.

Yeah.

We see that

he's apparently crashed in a diorama.

Ron (48:30)
I believe Tim said that they raided any place that had taxidermy animals in the vicinity. They said they wanted more. More? It takes up the whole screen.

Jesse (48:41)
Yeah, everything on the screen. Yeah, it's great.

Ron (48:43)
So he's picked up by large Marge. We learn when he gets to truck stop, diner.

Jesse (48:48)
Yeah, think

it's a truck stop diner, let's say.

Ron (48:51)
that large Marge was in the worst accident they ever saw.

Jesse (48:55)
I think they've ever seen.

Ron (48:56)
Ever seen large margin that stop-motion clay. What would you call it stop-motion animation claymation? That startled me as a kid and you mentioned that it it startled you as well Why doesn't why doesn't that take us out of the movie? It's the first time we see it. It seems out of place, but at the same time Perfect for exactly what they were going for

Jesse (49:02)
Yeah.

It was terrifying, yeah.

I mean, it's not any more out of place than the diorama. I think he lives in a world that exists between reality and insanity and an authentic representation of the world on film and a heightened version of a representation.

And so you just take it as it comes. It's also so compelling. Like the other thing is if it was more poorly done, if it was less amazing to look at and genuinely scary and surprising, it wouldn't work. I don't think. I mean, if it's not Tim Burton doing that, where he's built his whole life around doing that, it wouldn't work. mean, I watched Beetlejuice while I was working on the essay and it's the same thing. It's like, if this isn't

a total genius doing this. None of this works. Like none of it. but the, the hand of the artist being visible is not a problem in a movie that is about the artifice of show business, know, and storytelling.

Ron (50:16)
He this in Peewee just now realizes he doesn't have his wallet after all that he's been through. He just now realizes my wallet's gone and lovely Simone, who is a waitress at the truck stop slash diner, whatever we want to call it. He Peewee works off his debts by washing dishes and it does crack me up to see him back there with a hair nut and the full suit still on didn't take off his jacket. he's still fully suited up bow tie still on.

⁓ this is when he goes with Simone up into these big dinosaur. What is this place? This place really exists, correct?

Jesse (50:50)
I've been there. It's east of Los Angeles in Cabezon, California, which is date growing country. It's the desert. And they were built as a roadside attraction. I think now they have some kind of creationist stuff inside them right now. they are these big life-sized dinosaurs, at least as dinosaurs were conceived in 1965 or whatever.

And they're real. They're just like that. mean, I'm sure they can't have gone looking for giant dinosaurs. They must have been obsessed with those giant dinosaurs. know, John Paragon and Paul Rubens were just driving to Palm Springs and were obsessed with those dinosaurs on the way to Palm Springs and wrote them into the movie,

Ron (51:16)
first Jurassic Park? that what...

This is where we get the adult innuendo that obviously children watching the film in the nineties may not have cut. Let's talk about your big butt. And then she says, I've been waiting for someone to put it to me like that for a long time. And big seven foot tall Andy is outside listening. Andy, yeah. He kind of represents the opposite of Peewee, right? I mean, he is meant to...

Jesse (51:39)
Let's talk about your big butt.

Andy he chases them around like Popeye and Bluto

Ron (52:00)
show as an opposite. He's very large. He's presumably very strong. He's being represented as quite masculine.

Jesse (52:08)
And he's not a dreamer. mean, like, ultimately, that's what it is, right? It's like the reason that we stick with Peewee is he has a mission. He has a values, just like the same reason you want to watch The Godfather, right? They have rules. Like he has values. He has to rescue his bike and he's a dreamer. And that's what movies is,

Ron (52:23)
I don't view,

they want us as the audience, I'm presuming, the goal was to use Andy as Pee-wee's opposite because he's big, strong, and tough. I don't view Pee-wee as soft because of the actions that he takes, right? He bounces back in just about every scenario that he's been given so far. So I don't view the character as the opposite of tough, I suppose.

Jesse (52:46)
Yeah, I think that's fair.

Ron (52:47)
What does this relationship with Simone function as? He gives her actually pretty good advice. He unlocks for her maybe what her dream is.

Jesse (52:54)
I mean, it speaks to his charisma. The way that he affects the people around him speaks to his extraordinary, like he is the center, he is the son of every solar system, right? But I think what it really does is it really reinforces that.

Peewee believes in believing in something. And you don't know whether they're gonna like fall in love or what it means for Dottie or you don't know whether there's like how romantic this is. Obviously she's kind of in love with him because he's giving her permission to follow her dreams. But it's ultimately like a scene where we say, we see that like Peewee isn't just

impulsive, he actually believes in something. And the thing that he believes in is like doing what's important to you. And that being a dreamer is good. That being passionate is good. And that daring to be a, a storyteller in the way that the people who made Pollyanna is good, right? Like he didn't make

He didn't base the movie on Pollyanna because he thought Pollyanna was bad. He actually thinks that's wonderful, right? The same way that Tim Burton doesn't think Godzilla movies are bad,

Ron (54:04)
that's partly why I don't think he's soft because he gives her permission to go and chase what her dream is, but he's also willing to do that for himself. He's putting himself in harm's way. he's pretty much alienated himself so he can go get his, find his love, I suppose. And I think if you're, I keep using the word soft, but I guess if you're not tough, you may not be as apt to act as Pee has acted.

So he had to run away from Andy. So he jumps on a train Paul was not loving filming this scene with Jack who's singing the different songs with him. said, ⁓ I can't put it the way that Paul puts it obviously, but he said something about it smelled really bad. It just, he's like, I definitely wanted to jump off that train. And guess what? He lands right in front of, oddly enough, he lands right in front of a sign.

Welcoming him to San Antonio home of the Alamo Lovely and This is an excellent performance. I feel from the Alamo tour guide who's played by Jan Hooks who who had It is yeah, I think she what I think she did over a hundred episodes on SNL After this, I'm not sure the years exactly but she is so great as the tour guide in the Alamo and

Jesse (54:52)
It works out great.

Jan Hooks. Yeah. And this is pre-Saturday Night Live Jan Hooks.

Ron (55:13)
to our surprise, there is no basement in the Alamo, unfortunately.

Jesse (55:17)
I wanna, there's an article about Jan Hooks from like about a decade ago in Grantland that was written by Mike Thomas that is so great. I didn't know a ton about Jan Hooks. I sort of like caught the very, very end of her SNL run when I was a kid and started watching SNL, but

It's a really wonderful article that you can learn a lot from because, ⁓ she was such a genius on 30 Rock later in her life when she was essentially not working. And this is right before her Saturday Night Live run. And she never put together a career outside of that Saturday Night Live run and those two things, essentially. And she ⁓ seems to be an alcoholic among other things, but

It's a really wonderful article. And I do think that like, this is maybe the single best like straight comedy performance in the film. She's so funny. She's so great.

Ron (56:11)
It's so good. Even down to the gum chewing. Like she's created this whole character for herself and will not be interrupted as she's giving this tour of the Alamo.

Are you changing your focus at this point whenever you find out that the Alamo does not have a basement and marching near yourself right back to Madam Ruby? Are we going back there?

Jesse (56:30)
It really is amazing that Peewee's eyes just stay on the prize, right? Like it just keeps hurtling forward.

Ron (56:35)
Mm-hmm.

Well, but once again, when he's in trouble because he goes to the bus station and he doesn't have any and Simone is off to fulfill her dream and go to New York. think he's cool. She's going to New York city. He calls Dottie. Who does he call for help? He calls Dottie. He doesn't call his neighbor. I think it would be a different movie if he said, well, the person I know who has the most money, maybe he'll help me. Francis. That's a different movie. think. but

Jesse (56:48)
He calls Dottie for help.

Mm-hmm.

The stars

at night are big and bright.

Ron (57:04)
Bop,

bop, bop, bop, deep in the heart of Texas. Thanks a lot. Peewee has a future in bull riding, I think. I think he missed his calling. He could have just nixed the Peewees Playhouse and the Big Top Peewee and the Broadway show and just went straight to rodeo. Incredible skills.

Jesse (57:20)
It's such a,

this rodeo scene where he comes out dressed like a sort of Roy Rogers, Tom Mix cowboy, but also a clown and also.

Ron (57:29)
And the music,

the music then contributes to what we're seeing too, that dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

Jesse (57:35)
I keep coming back to this, but it's like such a querying of the idea of the Western on film. And you'll notice that like the other elements of this cowboy part are relatively.

verisimilitudinous. They're relatively literal, right? It looks like a real rodeo. It doesn't look like a cowboy movie, which I think is to kind of help highlight the way that the Peewee looks in that context while he comes out as basically RuPaul doing Roy Rogers, you know?

Ron (58:10)
That's a visual.

Jesse (58:10)
Like if there's a drag

king, Roy Rogers, that's what he's doing. And this also is like a sequence that establishes Peewee's, know, reinforces Peewee's courage and steadfastness and toughness. That this is this most insane situation ever, but all these masks

pretty literal Marlboro man, all respect him because of what an amazing job he does riding a bucking bronco.

Ron (58:37)
And you know what else they respect him is because what's the only thing he can remember. He remembers the Alamo. There's a lot of genres here and I didn't really clock it until I really started listening to Burton talking about the there's a Western section. This is a road movie. This is a rom-com kind of, this is a children's movie and action movie. We have chase sequences. It's pretty incredible that they fit everything that they did into.

Jesse (58:43)
Yeah, exactly.

Ron (59:04)
think it's about 88 minutes, it's not even quite 90 minutes. That's pretty amazing. It's amazing not just that they did it, it's who did it. The lack of experience did it is incredible.

Jesse (59:06)
Yeah, that's why.

You know,

this is a first time feature director. This is a first time screenwriters. Like they had never written any movie. It's not like they had sold three movies and this was their first movie being produced.

Ron (59:24)
I think that speaks to the genius that was, is all those guys, all three of those guys that were writing.

Jesse (59:29)
Yeah.

And also the genius of that screenwriting book they read.

Ron (59:32)
Yes, maybe we should maybe I should plug that in the description In true peewee fashion He upsets an entire bar full of bikers by playing dominoes with their Motorcycles, but then he turns it all around. That's the true peewee fashion is that they he turns it around and they absolutely adore him and The name of this motorcycle club in the bar that he's in where he upsets. These bikers is Satan's helpers Which I like

This is a fun, random fact, but the one Satan helper would, is that how it would do that singularly? The one helper of Satan with the eye patch actually played the security guard and repo man, which was on my last episode that I covered. So that's kind of strange, isn't it?

Jesse (1:00:08)
One of those guys, I met his kid at the flea market and he told me all this different stuff about it. But the most distinctive of the Satan's helpers is the beautiful woman played by Cassandra Peterson, AKA Elvira, Mistress of the Dark, who was lifelong lifelong friends with Paul. they were close friends. I mean, I interviewed her five or 10 years ago and we talked about her time in the groundlings with Paul.

Ron (1:00:24)
That's right.

Jesse (1:00:36)
And she's just incredible. She's just so smart and funny and cool and just a really amazing person.

Ron (1:00:42)
She only has one line and it hits pretty hard. She says, you should, I think you should let me have him first. And everyone laughs.

Jesse (1:00:45)
Yeah, I mean the...

I this

might be the most...

iconic part of the entire film.

Ron (1:00:52)
I have that written as well as my favorite sequence. But here's the weird part about that is the dance isn't great. I mean, if this is not like a, you think you can dance kind of performance here, it's silly. looks like Paul's up there just kind of winging it. He's got these weird shoes on, but it just, it's an iconic scene. works. He hits his head at one point. I don't know if you ever noticed that he hits his head on one of the beams.

Jesse (1:01:12)
Well, it's because

But

this story here is that like it's Peewee's Kutzpa. It's his driving passion for upsetting the apple cart and following his dreams that charms everyone ultimately. Like everyone just wants, you just see it you're like, well, I want to be part of that. That's what happens to the bikers. Like he destroys their thing, but he's so compelling. He's so amazing. He's so himself that you're just like, well.

I gotta get in on this.

Ron (1:01:44)
Yeah, I guess I wondered in the sequence too, if the film

was saying something about the idea of belonging because he's an outcast and you're these bikers are, I wouldn't call that mainstream at the time. They're all they're they're outcasts, but they're in different sections of whatever that would look like.

Jesse (1:01:50)
interesting.

for nothing, bikers are obviously an expression of gay masculinity as well. They're a very iconic archetype of 1970s, 1980s gay male-dom. And I definitely knew

gay bikers who looked like these guys in San Francisco when I was a kid. Like if I saw guys like this in San Francisco when I was a kid, maybe in the 1960s, they might've been the guys that stabbed somebody at Altamont.

Ron (1:02:38)
he earns his reward and his reward is a motorcycle. So we think for about three seconds, Peewee is going to get home. And his experience looks similar to what my first time on a motorcycle was. I didn't crash through a billboard, but it wasn't pretty. And there's a deleted scene. Actually. We see the bikers escorting the ambulance to the hospital, but there is a deleted scene where they all come in to see him in the hospital room and they're all very sweet.

to him and they're checking on him. That ambulance scene where he's, well, I get that he's at the hospital and he's having, that's the dream sequence that did startle me, I think, as a kid. This is the scene that reminds me a lot of the Beetlejuice aesthetic that we're gonna get with the black and white checkered floor. And the stop motion with the dinosaurs in this scene as well.

Jesse (1:03:19)
really intense. That's a really intense scene.

And it's so bannered, but it's so real to Peewee, Like it's such a vivid expression of like this really is the most important thing in the world to him.

Ron (1:03:25)
And while he's in the.

He's seeing it even in his dreams. He can't stop thinking about it. He's on a mission, an impossible mission that he chose to accept. While in the hospital, Pee sees that the bike is on the Warner Brothers studios lot because they talk about it being, this is like, the movie has to be 90 pages and 90 minutes. So we have to, we have to hurdle to the conclusion at some point. So how will he find his bike now? it's on the TV that he's, when he's in the hospital.

Jesse (1:03:51)
Yep.

Yep.

Ron (1:03:55)
and he dresses as a nun and gets his bike back. Should we read into that? Should we, should we read into the fact that he was, he dressed himself as a

Jesse (1:04:00)
A flying nun.

No, there's nothing unusual about that. I just described that as just, that's just classic Americana.

Ron (1:04:10)
I think this is my, besides the, I think the tequila dance scene is probably the most famous. And when you think of the film, you might think of that and maybe the Rube Goldberg machine opener. I think this chase scene in the WB lot is my favorite scene in the film. He's getting chased through all he takes the bike. he takes off his.

Jesse (1:04:32)
Wait,

hold on. I've been on a couple of sets and I just want to say that it's really important to me that when he gets on the site with, when he gets onto the set in his non outfit, that the, the brother from growing pains, wherever that is, wonder years, when he goes, I have been, am I ready? I've been ready since first call. I am always ready. Roll.

Ron (1:04:45)
Wonder years. was wonder years, I think.

Jesse (1:04:56)
I think of that anytime I'm on a film set. Anytime. It's not a thing that comes up for me. I'm on a film set every three years, but like every time I just think I have been ready since first call. Roll.

Ron (1:05:07)
Have you tried to say that out loud on a set?

I think if I was with you, I would be laughing and at least we would both be kicked out together. So we would at least have that bonding moment. I think I've said, is there a quote that you say that sticks with you that is something that you.

Jesse (1:05:24)
I think that's probably the one

that I'm most likely to say in real life, I think. I'm not going to say, know you are, but what am I, but...

Ron (1:05:28)
What's weird is like,

it's weird because you have no reason to say that quote. Just as, just as if I have no reason to say you'll be sorry, Pee-wee Herman.

Jesse (1:05:37)
Well, I mean, I do. I'm a professional broad.

People sometimes ask me if I'm ready and I can say I've been ready since first call. I'm always ready. Roll.

Ron (1:05:43)
Okay, I take it back.

I guess I'm less likely to say the line that sticks with me, which is you'll be sorry, Peewee Herman. Like, why would I say that to them? I'm going to say it this weekend to somebody. And if they get it, I think we have made a friend.

Jesse (1:05:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it doesn't come up.

And that's when they start their, like,

traipsing through cinema. And I feel like this is, this is like the most harmonious match of Paul Reubens and Tim Burton. Like you can really tell this is like what they both love. No one is, it's not like a matter of them conceding things to each other. To some extent, they're taking turns. Like I'm going to presume that the Frankie and Annette Beach movie is Paul's and the Godzilla movie is Tim Burton's. But

Ron (1:06:02)
Yeah.

Sure.

Jesse (1:06:26)
It's just that they both love the imagery of cinema and not great cinema, but good cinema. Like they probably also love the imagery of great cinema, but for them, is like this idea of all these heightened worlds that cinema can let you visit.

and how special it is to visit something that is bigger than the real world, even if it's silly, that they don't, it's not a problem that it's silly, And putting Twisted Sister in this sequence, making a hair metal video, like that's similarly silly, right? ⁓ But it, yeah, I mean, the whole thing is, yeah, the whole thing. It's just a freaking joy.

Ron (1:07:03)
Well, you get a Wile E. Coyote gag in the middle of all this as well.

It's fascinating. I can't imagine being in a writer's room saying, here's what we're going to have. We're going to have twisted sister, Godzilla, the North pole, Santa Claus, a Wile E. Coyote cartoon gag. And you're going to be escaping on a bike that was clearly modified by Q from James Bond. It's like, I'm in like, sign me up for that scene. That's why I think I like it so much. And the boomerang, the boomerang bow tie payoff is supposed to be here. I don't know what they were going to do, but I learned that it was supposed to be in this.

Jesse (1:07:18)
beach party.

Yep. Yep.

Ron (1:07:36)
Chasing and dare I say we were robbed. It's not in the deleted seeds either. I think they just did not use it When he does escape he lands in front of a bunch of kids on their bikes and I love that piece of writing too because it's a callback to when he crashed his bike in front of the kids and now he lands the trick and a kid says the most 1986 thing ever and he says radical

Jesse (1:08:00)
radical.

Ron (1:08:05)
Peewee comes across a, but this is like, when I say these things out loud in sequence, it sounds so ridiculous. Peewee has won, he has earned his love back, and I say earned because he did earn it, and he comes across a pet store that's on fire. But it does force the character to choose between moral responsibility and.

something more personal to him.

Jesse (1:08:27)
It's, and his selfishness. Like it's, this is the moment when we realize that like him inspiring Simone in some ways is the first expression of this, right? But he's inspiring Simone as he is inspiring Simone, his own mind is still on his own mission. When he saves the snakes from the pet store that he hates to save.

and risks his, not just his own wellbeing, but the bike in so doing, that is the moment that you know that he is willing to give something of himself to something bigger than him.

Ron (1:09:00)
So is that

a growth in the character or is that who he's been? Has that been his identity all along? It's unanswerable perhaps, but.

Jesse (1:09:08)
It's funny, it's like

a, it's, mean, speaking of screenwriting books, like it's such a, reverse save the cat, like he saves the cat last. Like the whole time it relies on us believing that it's worth watching a selfish person because of how exciting he is. And then he finally proves that he's more than just a selfish person.

Whereas, you the idea of saving a cat is that if you're going to have Vin Diesel go through an entire movie killing people at first, he's got to do something nice so you know he's a good guy.

Ron (1:09:36)
Yeah, but Pee-wee's not really a jerk to anybody except for really Francis. So he's not unlikable to the point of, I understand what you're saying. You're saying the character is going to do some bad things. Yeah, you're right. It all works out for them though, I think. Well, who knows?

Jesse (1:09:42)
Kind of.

He's a jerk to Dottie.

Yeah. But

it is, it's such, it wouldn't be the same film without that. It would still be a joy. But the fact that it has this moment that is such a visceral, vivid illustration of this odd thing. ⁓

Ron (1:10:06)
And

Paul Rubin's hated snakes for real, did not want it. He wanted to do this with fake snakes. And the morning they were shooting, Tim went to Paul and said, listen, it's not going to look right. We need to go with the real snakes.

Jesse (1:10:09)
⁓

So happy to hear that.

Ron (1:10:21)
he is then caught because he passes out he's brought back to Warner Brothers. And of course, because he redeemed himself and Warner Brothers sees an opportunity to.

profit off of this situation in story. Whoa, that's weird considering what's going on right now. And the film ends at the drive-in showing his story that was made into a film. Is there anything more Americana than the drive-in, I ask you.

Jesse (1:10:31)
profit.

Thanks

Absolutely not.

Ron (1:10:46)
And the film within the film stars James Brolin and Morgan Fairchild. They tried to get Connery. Paul was not happy that they couldn't get Connery, but said later that he could not imagine anyone else other than Brolin starring as P.W. in this film. I always wondered what was the name of the film within the film? Did it have a name?

Jesse (1:11:05)
I don't know if it has a name, that's a good point.

Ron (1:11:07)
Can

we come up with one on the fly? Damn, all right, you win. That's lazy, Jesse. You're good, you're good.

Jesse (1:11:08)
You know, call it Pee-wee's big adventure.

I came up with that just now. Yeah, just now I came up with that.

Yeah, thanks.

Ron (1:11:17)
this film within a film, Paul plays a bad actor, not like a bad person. mean, like a literal actor who's very poor as the bellhop or the front desk worker in this hotel. And Paul said it's the most fun he's ever had filming anything was acting poorly on purpose in the, does that sound like something Paul would say?

Jesse (1:11:38)
I can only imagine how fun it must have been for him. I can only imagine.

Ron (1:11:43)
It ends with Pee-wees handing out snacks and we get everybody that he's met in his journey along the way. And I love this because the film ends and it's depicting all these people being together. All the characters are back. Is there something to be said then about this outsider now having a community?

Jesse (1:12:02)
Yeah, and I mean, I think also it is about the way that.

I'm usually a guy that hates movies about movies. Like I hate the idea that a movie should be, like I was like rolling my eyes out of my head at Inglorious Bastards. But like it ultimately is this affirmation that like the shared experience of storytelling brings people together and like that the, the absurdity of it is part of what makes it

good, it's this, it's the silly mannered thing is part of what makes it such a joy, and that if you, if you look at, if you can see it from different perspectives, if you can understand it in, in new ways, if you can pick out what's special about it, that that is in the ways that, weirdo goth Tim Burton did with,

Vincent Price movies and the art gay in Florida, Paul Rubens did with Frankie and Annette movies, that it can be this kind of community ritual.

Ron (1:13:01)
Is it too meta to think this way that Paul Rubens himself was a bit of a rebel? I'm a loner, Dottie, a rebel. And in the credits, we see Pee Wee Herman as himself. I mean, he's almost like casting himself out by connecting himself as I am not Paul Rubens, I am Pee Wee Herman.

Jesse (1:13:09)
I mean, he certainly

Yeah, think sometimes I think maybe that was an art project that got out of hand for him. I don't know how much he, how good he felt about that. Ultimately the decision that he made to conflate himself and Peewee as it played out over the next few years. But,

Ron (1:13:24)
Ha ha ha

Jesse (1:13:36)
But yeah, I honestly think that he just liked the idea of...

living the dream. Like he loved the idea of performance and reality being one.

Ron (1:13:47)
Well, we've come to the end, Jesse. We have made it through.

Jesse (1:13:50)
⁓ Two

stars, two stars out of five for me. How about you? The movie, the movie, Pee-wee's Big Adventure, I'm giving it two stars out of five. feel like it's kind of a low rent. It's kind of like a low rent Buster Keaton to me. Don't care for it. Don't care.

Ron (1:13:53)
Are you rating yourself or me?

Don't do that. Don't do that.

Don't hurt me that way. You know how much I love it. It is wonderful. So as we close every episode, the guest has an opportunity to answer the question of why this film, so why Pee Wee's Big Adventure, why does it deserve its place in the Criterion Collection?

Jesse (1:14:07)
Literally my favorite movie of all time.

I think.

There's no greater.

explanation of why movies are good.

that.

reflects the way outsider communities can find themselves in.

dominant myths that.

It's not just an argument in favor of.

movies are good because movies are good in a sort Steven Spielberg sense. I don't mean to diminish Steven Spielberg, total genius, obviously, but most of those kinds of movies are.

are very literal in their celebration of how great movies are, right? They're very on the nose. And

huge big adventure makes the argument, I think, that...

the regular world still has something special for someone who is weird. And that the dialogue between a weirdo and the regular world is in itself a work of art. And I also think it belongs in the Criterion Collection because ultimately it's crazy funny. Like it is crazy, crazy funny. Like it is so spectacularly funny.

I don't think there's really a funnier movie. there's movies that are similarly funny. But like, I don't think there's a movie to me that's funnier. And ultimately, I do believe in my heart that funniness is a self evident virtue. Like I think that being funny is good.

And I don't think that in the world of cinema, that is often recognized. And, I don't think that funniness has to be satirical. I don't think that it like, I think funniness is in and of itself good. It is one of the greatest parts of being human. So the fact that it is just bananas funny is.

incredible.

Ron (1:16:08)
Thank you so much for taking the time. know you're a very busy man.

Jesse (1:16:12)
I'm grateful

for the invitation. I also want to tip my cap to Anna Thorngate at Criterion, was the editor of the piece that I wrote in the liner notes there. And I am not a film critic. I want to be clear. I've never written film criticism in my life.

I had written some essays for, like I used to have like a closing essay on my public radio show. And some of those were, guess were about films, but like, I'm not a, I'm not a film critic. Like my friend Alonso Duralde, who's a, is a full-time professional film critic and has been for 30 years and whatever. I know that I'm not him. I'm not, I'm friends with Elvis Mitchell. Like Elvis Mitchell knows, has forgotten in one day more about film than I've ever known, right?

and certainly more about criticism than I've ever known. However, I was like, to be invited to write this was incredibly intimidating and such an honor. And I was so, so excited that I got to do it. And I also got a lot of help and encouragement from my friend Elliot Kalin, who's a

who was, among other things, head writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000 and The Daily Show. And Elliot happened to be in the middle of writing a book about writing comedy. But he's also just a really insightful film mind who really knows comedy. I talked through a lot of the ideas in the essay with Elliot, and I was really grateful for his help. But Anna in particular, like I didn't do this for the thousand bucks they paid me. I was grateful to get the thousand bucks, but...

was a lot more work than a thousand bucks for a guy that had never done this before. So ⁓ I did it because I just can't imagine a bigger honor. I do hope that when they finally make the a thousand clowns 4k that they'll bring me back.

Ron (1:17:53)
Well, I have no connections or I would help you.

Jesse (1:17:56)
Okay, put in a good word anyway, write a letter. Don't be lazy, man.

Ron (1:17:58)
Thank you

Yeah, I know sorry email exists great. mean I know that's free I can email but now I really do want to thank you The essay thank you for sharing that about the essay because it is beautifully done

Jesse (1:18:02)
Get it together, Ron.

Ron (1:18:11)
Thank you again to Jesse Thorne for taking the time to speak with me about Pee Wee's Big Adventure. If you'd like to support the show for as little as $3 a month, you can do so by selecting the support the show link in the episode description. You can follow the podcast on Instagram for updates and subscribe on YouTube for full video versions of each episode. Links are also in the description below. Next time I'll be joined by Jared Frederick to discuss the Thin Red Line. Thanks again for listening. Please be sure to follow, share, and keep an eye out for the next episode.