The Royal Tenenbaums (2001, Wes Anderson) with Chris Cook - Criterion Collection Spine #157

"To me, it's a perfect film."

In this episode of Why This Film?, I'm joined by assistant director Chris Cook to explore The Royal Tenenbaums (2001), Wes Anderson's meticulously crafted family drama and Criterion Collection Spine #157.

Released in 2001, The Royal Tenenbaums follows the once-brilliant Tenenbaum siblings - Chas, Margot, and Richie - whose early promise has long since faded. When their estranged father Royal suddenly re-enters their lives under false pretenses, the family is forced into a reluctant reunion.

Chris Cook brings his perspective as an assistant director working across film and television, with credits including The Killer, Ted Lasso, and The Morning Show. He talks about what stands out in The Royal Tenenbaums not just as a viewer, but as someone who understands how a film like this has to come together behind the scenes.

Together, we move through the film scene by scene and discuss:

• Wes Anderson's visual style and early run of films
• The ensemble cast
• The film's production design, soundtrack, and use of montage
• Royal Tenenbaum as both a deadbeat father and an oddly compelling force within the family
• Themes of early success, failure, grief, and reconciliation
• Why The Royal Tenenbaums remains one of the most emotionally resonant and distinctive films in the Criterion Collection.

Hollywood ManeStays - Not a pin, not a clip. Just Better.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:06

This has only cemented the fact that this is probably my favorite movie of all time.

Ron 0:15

Hello everybody, my name is Ron and welcome to Why This Film, a podcast where we explore the artistry, cultural impact, and legacy of movies in the Criterion Collection. Each episode, I sit down with experts in Cenophiles to ask, why was this film chosen for the collection, and why does it still matter today? In this episode, we're stepping into the carefully constructed world of the Royal Tenen Bombs, Criterion Spy number 157, the 2001 film from director Wes Anderson, part family drama, part deadpan comedy, and melancholic character study, The Royal Tenonbombs follows a once brilliant group of siblings, Chaz, Margot, and Richie, whose early promise has long since given way to disappointment, isolation, and unresolved pain. When their estranged father Royal unexpectedly re-enters their lives, the family is forced into an attempt of reconciliation. My guest today is Chris Cook, an assistant director working across film and television. He worked as a second AD on The Killer and The Morning Show, and a second AD on Ted Lasso. His career spans both high-profile streaming series and major studio productions, where he's been part of the teams responsible for translating large-scale creative visions into something that can actually function on a set day to day. That means coordinating schedules, managing crews, and keeping production moving. Earlier in his career, Chris worked in the production department on films like Anchorman 2, Everything Must Go, and the other guys, building a foundation from the ground up and gaining firsthand experience in how sets operate at every level. That trajectory from production roles into assistant directing on major projects gives him a clear view of how films come together behind the scenes. That perspective makes the Royal Tenenbombs an especially fitting film for our conversation. And with that, here's my conversation with Chris Cook. You chose the Royal Tenenbaumbs. Is there a specific reason for that?

SPEAKER_05 1:54

The second you told me how to that I had to choose from a Criterion film, I instantly chose Royal Tenen Bombs. If I had to choose my favorite movie, I think I would choose the Royal Tenenbaum. And there's a lot of reasons why. You can argue that. And I know Wes Anderson has gone on to have these more and more amazing ensemble casts in all his films. Like he attracts the best of the best. But this is sort of the started out, I think. I love Wes Anderson because he's a Texas guy and he you know went to UT Austin. And I'm a big you know UT person because I grew up outside of Austin. In that time period, like Sanderson was getting really big, and I was starting to like the light bulb came on about wanting to work in the film industry. Now Conaghey and you know Owen Wilson and Luke Wilson and Wes were all kind of Rick Lake Clitter, they were all in his Austin mix. And I was in that too, and I was really just loving those movies. I mean Rick Lake Clitter is another one of my favorites, but West Anderson and all his movies are great, but to me this has always been his best movie because it's again the cast, the story, the characters, they're so well written. The music, the soundtrack is is one of the best. The sets, the humor the way you can relate to the dysfunctions of the family that I think everybody has in their life, it it speaks to the heart. I mean, Gene Hackman is one of the best actors ever, and a lot of people agree with that. I mean, you have Bill Murray, you have Glenn Paltry, you have Luke Wilson, you have Owen Wilson, you have Ben Stiller. I mean, they're generational jealousy Houston. Oh my god. Alec Baldwin as the narrator.

Ron 3:34

As the narrator. Yeah, Wes Wes Anderson's first four films, he goes bottle rocket, Rushmore, Rural Tenon Bombs, and the Life Aquatic. What an incredible start to a career. It's pretty unbelievable. I feel like Wes is, and you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, or if you agree. Is he a divisive type of artist where you either get him or you don't?

SPEAKER_05 3:54

I think there's something to that. I don't think he's for everybody. Like it's almost like looking at a pastel painting, all these beautiful things that he he builds. Every shot is art. I I don't know if he's divisive. I in my opinion, it's it's sort of like uh a band. You're like, I'm into the early stuff. So for me, I'm I'm more into Wes Anderson because of his early stuff, because it's gotten um I don't know, not not to say formulaic, but you kind of know what you're in for these days, and and I think his script and his stories, um they're almost cartoonish these days. It's more like you're gonna just go on this journey and be in this world and enjoy it. But again, it was sort of like um just having like a like a bowl of ice cream, it's great, but it's not it's not the real tin of bombs or wood life aquatic or or rushmore.

Ron 4:43

I learned a new term when I was doing my research for just Wes Anderson in general, planimetric staging. I've never heard that term because I know when I'm looking at a Wes Anderson film beyond just the colors, there's something about it that it feels two-dimensional. So I started looking into things and I found this term. I was like, okay, that makes complete sense to me, where everything in front of the camera, everything's set perpendicular, and then the characters and the camera will move horizontally or vertically, like it'll follow everything. And then I found an SNL skit that they did it, they created a fake horror movie trailer in the style of Wes Anderson. I'm like, damn, they got him. I'm like, did Wes Anderson direct this SNL skit?

SPEAKER_05 5:26

Well, because he's so unique in the way he makes his movies, I think it leaves room for a little bit of humor. And and if you if you get mocked on SNL, I guess that's a really big compliment. But yeah, he had this style, and I I worked on this show years ago and they tried to image it. And one of the things that you have to think about is in um blocking, you know, a scene. If you have two people apart from each other, a lot of times they shoot over the person and you get a you get a piece of their shoulder or their head and then you then you get the other side and you cut to the other's other actor over them to match. So what we always made sure of in our blocking of our scene and talking about our shots on the show was that there's no ogres. You just shoot straight on, like you said, and you've discovered that and and it's uh it's it's style. It's a choice. Not many people do it, and it but it I think to me it puts you in this sort of world. Like you're I was thinking last night, watching it for I don't know, like the 50th, 60th time. I don't even know.

Ron 6:25

You notice something different every time, right? I mean it's the production design, there's always something different that you catch. Because when he shoots it that way, they aren't static backgrounds, they're dynamic backgrounds. There's people moving, they're doing things. There's a shot at one point where Angelica Houston's having a conversation, I think, with Margot, and through the window you can see somebody's back there eavesdropping, but there's always something going on in other parts of the frame besides just the two characters that are having a conversation. I have not seen it as many times as you, but clearly we're noticing a lot of the similar types of things. There's a a line in the essay by Kent Jones that accompanies the Criterion release, and he writes that a lot of the shots of a Wes Anderson film are quote, like illustrations from a slightly risque children's book. Yeah. And I pulled that out because that's such a great explanation.

SPEAKER_05 7:14

Yeah, and I mean the people that write these things, they just describe it so perfectly, some of these critics and these movie historians, and it's just it's amazing. I'm not a writer, but but you know, I noticed this stuff, and it's so it's it's picturesque. And but what those those shots do is to me, I was thinking last night, it just it just pulls you in so so quickly. You're like, okay, I'm in this world now, and that to me is just it's it's just pretty cool. And like the gypsy cab company, which doesn't exist, but like it's just it's art, and art is so wonderful in that because it's Wes Anderson's mind. And then you have like the 147th Street Y, which there's not a hundred and you know, I forget the number, but the streets don't go that high, you know, in New York.

Ron 7:58

Are you so because of your background, are you watching films like this differently than I I don't want to say like us normal movie ego or people, but I don't I've never been on a set in my life. Are you looking at things from that production standpoint because of how involved you've been in the production of television shows and movies?

SPEAKER_05 8:17

It's it's a good question, and I think that it's fair to say that um if it has to be really good for me to sort of shut that part of my brain off to enjoy it, because if it's not, then that part of my brain turns on and I start to think about where are they shooting it, have I worked with that actor before, um, the dialogue, how tough it was to shoot that, or or how they could have done it differently. I look at the extras, I start to think, oh God, that must have been tough, or or that could have been, you know, great to work on. So anyway, to answer your question, is I do think like that constantly. And again, that's why, you know, if I if I really want to kind of turn that side of my brain off, I I lean in towards to sports. But a movie like Royal Tinder Moms, even on the 50th viewing, still makes that part of my brain shut off and and be able to enjoy it um and and just kind of relax. And it's it's it's a comfort movie for me on so many levels, obviously. Um, but yeah, it has to be really good, basically.

Ron 9:17

This film does have a lot going on, and one of the things you mentioned the soundtrack earlier, the needle drops are amazing. You have tracks by Nico, Bob Dylan, The Clash, Paul Simon, the Ramones, Rolling Stones, Velvet Underground, John Lennon, Van Morrison, and then in the beginning, I believe there's an uh there's an orchestral version of is that a word? Orchestral? Orchestra orchestra, whatever. Uh, version of Hey Jude. And that is beautiful. It's amazing. And he just drops them in there and they fit perfectly with every scene. They set the mood, the tone for what he's going for. It's when I'm watching it the first time, I don't know what I'm looking for, to be honest. I have no plan. I'm just trying to enjoy and take it all in, maybe from the story first. And then on these subsequent watches, I'm like, what the hell is that guy doing back there? Oh, there's a mouse. I didn't see that Dalmatian mouse before. It has nothing to do with the scene, but it's crawling around back there. And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute, is that Hey Jude?

SPEAKER_05 10:09

The songs are incredible. I mean, I remember like watching this movie in the theater thinking, like, I have to get this soundtrack. And I did, and I listened to it a ton because it's it's it's perfect. Absolutely perfect. I mean, like you said, the Rolling Stones and Dylan and the end with Van Morrison as they're leaving. I'd never heard that song until that movie. Amazing Van Morrison song. One of the greatest scenes is when he's with his grandkids, Gene Hackman Royal, takes him out on their little adventures where they're going to a dog fight and they're riding on the back of a trash truck. Paul Simon, me and Julio Down at the schoolyard, I mean, that's it's a classic song, too. It's kind of connects the grandfather that's wanting to spend time with his grandkids, and that song is such a fun-loving kind of adventure in itself to where it's it just fits perfectly in that scene.

Ron 10:57

Yeah, there's a lot of different themes that I think he's exploring in this one. And one of the themes he's trying to explore is that idea of failure. You think about all the children and how they peaked essentially at an early age, where they've all three of them. Well, I don't count Eli, I don't count Owen Wilson because he's not a he he wants to be a tenantbaum. But the three kids, they've reached this peak at an earlier age in life. And Wes exploring this idea of failure and always trying to top your greatest achievement. And that's only the first like 10 minutes of the movie. There's this economical way of filmmaking that he has in the beginning, and we're gonna jump into the movie here in just a minute. And then the kids peak, there's the aftermath when they're all estranged from each other, and then bringing everybody back together at theme of failure then changes to that idea of togetherness with your family to lift each other up, like having each other's backs and coming together and reconciliation and all of these great ideas. And I don't think I catch that stuff on first watches. And I think there's a lot to dig into with the Tenen Bombs.

SPEAKER_05 12:04

You get something different out of it each time, and you know, you notice these things because, like you said, there's always something happening in these shots, which is great filmmaking. And and then, you know, you notice the songs. I mean, so I think he probably got that from Scorsese because Scorsese has these amazing soundtracks that lead you on this journey, like Goodfellas and the departed. There are these epic classic songs that some people say it's distracting, but I don't think that. I think it's part of the the enjoyment of it. And again, it adds another layer, and you start thinking about that song and why they chose it and what is that trying to tell. You know what I mean?

Ron 12:42

It's it's part of the story. We could probably spend about I could probably spend about two hours talking about PTA and Scorsese needle drops and how badass they all are. I could probably I have had trouble with some films in segmenting them, like okay, I want to talk about this segment first, and then where does that end and where's the next one start? This film makes it really easy because it tells you prologue, chapter one, chapter two, chapter three. It just goes right through. Makes it really made it really, really easy for me to separate in where we go. So are you ready to jump in and start talking through it? Prologue. We get an introduction to the family and the house, which is almost a character in itself. Yeah. The whole city and the house. Yeah, I want to talk about the city because Wes went out of his way to hide skyscrapers. There's a scene down by water where he had one of the characters block out the Statue of Liberty. I never noticed that. Yeah, Gene, I guess Gene Hackman and Wes did not get along very well on this. You're right. On this I have a story about that.

SPEAKER_05 13:45

Yeah, please do. Go ahead. Bill Murray, who's another generational one of my favorite actors ever. He has several movies in my top ten. Uh, but he's actually known for being difficult. And my mom's worked with him. She loved working with him on a movie called Ed Wood, but he's tough to work with. He was friends with with Wes, and he basically had to defend Wes and stick up for him because Gene Hackman was giving him such a hard time. But I mean, again, he's he's an amazing actor, and I think he he probably had some justifiable questions and and and wanted to do good give his best performance. I mean, working with actors is is can be it's tough. And and if if if you're working with such a pro, there's a lot of baggage that comes with it in a good and bad way. But yeah, hearing that Bill Murray, who is difficult on his own right, say that Gene Hackman was I can only imagine, you know what I mean? If somebody's saying that they're difficult, then that's saying something.

Ron 14:39

Yeah, it's I think Wes said it's one of his regrets that he couldn't make this movie a more enjoyable experience for Gene Hackman because he only had so many movies left in him at that point in 2001, I believe this movie was. Yep. Which is crazy 25 years ago. No wonder I didn't understand it when I watched it. I was a teenager, so there's no way I probably wouldn't have understood what I was seeing. Gene Hackman does play the patriarch of the family, Royal Tenenbaum. Yeah. And then Etheline Tenenbaum, the matriarch, played by the beautiful Angelica Houston. Oh, yeah. Chaz is introduced as our little businessman. The adult version of him is played by Ben Stiller. Chaz has a BB lodged in his left hand, we learn, because he and the family were playing, and of course, Royal shoots him and he has that BB stuck in his hand. There's a story about that we'll get to.

unknown 15:27

Okay.

Ron 15:28

Margot is the adopted daughter. She is a free spirit playwright missing half a finger, the adult version played by Gwyneth Paltrow. And Margot is reminded quite often that she is adopted. I'm sure she looks like hilarious, but also sad. Richie, the champion tennis player, in love with his adopted sister, Marg, adult version played by Luke Wilson. All three are, you could describe them as Renaissance men. They are all highly accomplished before they, I don't know how old these kids are. They look like they're under the age of 12. And we get the voiceover storytelling by a very recognizable voice that you've mentioned, Alec Baldwin. And we learn all we need to know. I had to pause because I thought, wow, we got a lot of info here, and it's been five minutes. And the open focuses on all the children's strengths. The rest of the film focuses on all of their weaknesses. From a production standpoint, how difficult is it to pull off an opening like this where you're introducing the characters, the tone, visual language, you're setting the audience up where this is what you're in for, and it's been five minutes.

SPEAKER_05 16:28

No, you're right. It's in my mind, it's so difficult, but it's the genius of Wes Anderson. That's the writing. It really is the writing. And when I start a movie or TV show, I read the script and I go, oh my gosh, this is special. If I was reading that script, I would say, goodness, this is amazing. Like the way he can wrap that up in five minutes is is uh unworldly talent. It's all in the script. It's like like you said, PTA Scorsese, Wes Anderson is in that category because of that. I mean, there's not many people that can do that. I mean, it it reminds me, there's a there's a bit of for whatever reason, I don't know. I was watching last night, I was thinking about the soundtrack and the way he does that in such a quick time. I think the departed does that so well because it it shows all these characters. Just it it just throws it at you right at the the right at the start. Obviously, this has so much humor into it be and it's so creative. A tennis player, a playwright, a businessman. They're all so different, but yet again, like you said, which I've never thought about, is they it shows how they peaked at a young age and now they have this dysfunction, and they're so eccentric, too. And Angelica Houston is an archaeologist, I think Danny Glover is in it too, is another just amazing actor. And again, I just go back to like the fact that he got all these people at that time. I mean, now it makes sense because you know, these actors see these movies like Royal Tenenbaums and Rushmore and go, Oh, I want to be a part of that. But then he hadn't really done that much. So the fact that he got these actors to sign up, it speaks to the script because from a production standpoint, you try to get the you know the biggest actors you can for the amount of money. They probably paid them less because they loved the script. So a lot of times you hear an actor and you see him on set, and I, you know, I hear these conversations and they say, Well, thank you for doing this project. And one of the first things that these actors will say is, Well, this script was amazing. How could I say no? It's so unique, so funny, so heartfelt. I mean, you feel sorry for these characters, but you're also immediately attracted to them because they're so interesting and they're they're they're they're all just really trying to get along, but they can't, you know, and then and there's so much complexity to it. It's but it's at the same time, it's so funny. I mean, I I was laughing out loud, and my wife last night was like teasing me because she's gone, you know, you're laughing, like you let me watch.

Ron 18:47

It's like well, what is preparation like for an opening like this? Because it seemed like a lot of setups. Every kid is shown that they're good at just more than one thing. There's little things like Chaz, we need to see his motorized tie rack, but we also need to see him on the phone as as almost as if he's a little real estate mogul. Richie, it's just it's not just he's he's an excellent tennis player. Margo, it's not just that she can write. So there's a lot of setups. So what is that preparation like?

SPEAKER_05 19:20

Um so yeah, you have uh the assistant director, uh the director, you have producers, locations, um, you have a lot of meetings, you have a lot of casting, which is big. So I'm sure they they spent months, months, and months trying to find these kids that look like the actor, but also they need to act like they need to they act and look like you know the actor. So that's tough. I mean, working with kids is tough because for a lot of reasons, but um, if you can find the right kid, it's so special. But yeah, so that there's there's a lot of that going, and you have to figure out the sets that helps tell the story. You have meeting upon meeting upon meeting about what these kids should look like, how they should dress, how their hair looks, how their makeup should be, you know, how the set should look. It's it's it's a fully collaborative thing. And a lot of times so many people are coming up with different ideas. Like, well, what if we made like I don't even know where that came from, that that mechanical tie rack. I mean, that could have been a Wes' idea, that could have been a production designer idea.

Ron 20:22

I think Wes's roommate in college had it or something like that. Is that right? Like it was someone he knew that had it. I don't I yeah, it was something strange like that.

SPEAKER_05 20:30

Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot that goes into it. And and I I just wish that people that enjoyed movies could see kind of be a fly in the wall and see these these analyst amounts of conversations going into it because it's it's way more than you can imagine. But somebody like Wes, I imagine, has has he, you know, a great director has a great vision. And so I think a lot of it was probably him being very specific because a lot of his shots are very specific, and so I think that just kind of speaks to his mind of of how smart he is and how talented and and genius he is.

Ron 21:07

Well, I think one of the shots that he throws in here after we get introduced to the characters, which I think shows that he has some balls, because oh yeah, it's the cast of characters. We have that planimetric staging camera shots of all the characters, but he puts the character name and the actor's name, which I found to be so interesting because they just spent all this time pulling us into the world. And whenever you show me Bill Murray, Angelica, he's you show me the real names, you run the risk of me not seeing Etheline and Royal, you run the risk of me seeing Angelica and Gene instead. But you're right, because there's so much shit going on in the background and he shows the way it's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

I mean, again, it gives that's a that gives me the chills because it's so ballsy and it's such a cool thing to even notice that he does that. But what that makes me, and actually my wife noticed it too. She goes, this is like a play. So what that says for me is you it's like you're sitting down, right, in the play, the lights go down, and then before the lights go down, you're looking at the playbill and you say, Well, Bill Murray as so-and-so, Angelica Houston as Etheline Tinemum, Gene Hackman as Royalton. I mean, it's it's a it's a cool thing. I mean, and I don't think it takes away from a play either. It kind of gets you excited to say, wow, we're gonna see these actors play these characters, and they're so famous that it's like I can't wait to see their their portration of these characters.

Ron 22:34

Yeah, it's funny. If it were people that I'd never heard of, I'd be like, oh, okay, cool. And it and on the other end, it's I've heard of everyone, and I'm like, oh, this is badass. All these people are in this movie. So it actually doesn't really take me out of it at all.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

You're like, oh my God, yes. They all have these cool introductions to like they're putting on a hat or they're adjusting their tie or they're smoking a cigarette. Or and again, that's just speaks to Wes Anderson's genius. You know, it's it's something else.

Ron 23:00

Chapter one, we then fast forward 22 years later, and Royal is living in the Lindbergh Palace Hotel. He's been there for the last 22 years, and he gets kicked out. He doesn't have enough money to pay his masseuse, I don't think.

SPEAKER_05 23:12

We learn about Sing Sing a hundred.

Ron 23:14

Yeah, that's right. We learn about the friend of the friend of the family, Eli, played by Owen Wilson. He's grown up to become a writer. I don't know if he's supposed to be some mirror to an actual author of some kind, but he's definitely his own character. He seems like we'll learn later on as the movie goes on. When you if you told me he really wants to be a tenum bomb, I'd say, oh yeah, I can see it. Well, besides the fact that he's sleeping with Margot, maybe he might not want to be a tenum bomb. Oh, I guess it doesn't stop Richie. So we learn Marg is married to a character named Raleigh, played by Bill Murray. Raleigh Sinclair is doing some sort of testing on the child, which is kind of strange, is like recreate the shape and then he can't. And it's oh, interesting. Interesting, how bizarre. It's the whole thing.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

That's that's that's something that I will quote with a friend of mine who when I work with him, I'll we'll set a scene and and if it's weird, we'll go, how interesting, how bizarre.

Ron 24:12

Well, so laugh out loud, funny. Bill Murray, classic. As the scenes carry on, and it's just coming at you fast and furious, that you almost can't catch your breath. You're like, oh my god, I can't keep up with everything that's going on. I can't keep up with who is who and who are these people. I I see Bill Murray, like, what is he to marry DeMargo? That's an interesting choice, considering she's probably 30 years younger than Chaz is training his sons on how to respond to an emergency in a scene because we learned that his wife, who what does how does Royal describe her? A terribly attractive woman? Is that what he says to me? Yeah, something like that. That's right. His wife died in a plane crash. Ethelene's working as an archaeologist. Her coworker Henry, played by Danny Glover, would like to marry her. Pagoda is the name of the person I couldn't think of. Pagoda. He's like the um the butler of the house. He tells Royal that Henry has proposed to Ethel. Etheline. That's right. What is it about it? I can't quite put my finger on it that allows us to not just hear the information, but I'm taking it all in. It normally takes me a lot longer than 15 minutes just to remember character names, motivations, but there's something about the way it's being presented that I can't quite put a finger on that allows me to, okay, I got it. I'm I'm in the world. I understand.

SPEAKER_05 25:24

It's so hard to do. And I mean, I think that's probably why I'm I'm intimidated to write, because how do you get to that point of telling these stories that fast and that that precise to get all that information in? And again, I think that's why it's such a great rewatchable movie, is is because of that. Um, because it is so fast, and then you end up noticing more and more because of it.

Ron 25:49

The kid, the adults, they're all dressed and looking like they're stuck in a time of their greatest successes when they were kids. From a movie-making standpoint, I understand, because you you recognize, oh, the boy with the headband is the adult with the headband. I get it. That's right. But I like the idea.

SPEAKER_05 26:05

That connects their their their timeline.

Ron 26:07

But I like the idea of they're stuck in a time where they were at their best. That's a great. That's why they have the that's why Margot wears the eyeliner like that. Even as a kid. Even as a kid. She's wearing she's doing the same as an adult. What is pre-production like on a film like this? That there's a lot of wardrobe, they're using a lot of blocking to do a lot of the communicating. Instead of traditional dialogue, that the traditional dialogue is there, but we're getting a lot more from wardrobe and blocking. So, what is pre-production like from that standpoint?

SPEAKER_05 26:38

You have a meeting with the costume designer. That could have been a Wes thing. Wes could have said, I want her to have the same makeup as a child as she does as an adult. And I want Richie to have the same headband as he has as a child and he has as an adult. Or that could have easily been a costume designer idea, which again, that's the beauty of filmmaking, is that you have these collaborative ideas and you hire people that hopefully will bring something like that to the table. That's something that you don't quite know because you weren't there. But my guess is that it could have been a Wes idea, but you know, you never know. Like the makeup artist could have said, Oh, I have an idea. Why don't we make the young girl have the same eyeliner as she does as an adult? And Wes might have said, Genius, thank you. Let's do it. Or the costumer goes, I'm gonna give the boy the same headband. And Wes might go, Oh, this is why I hired you. You know what I mean? Wes could have said, Hey, make sure we want to match these kids' look to their adult look. So let's make her hair the same as when she's an adult. Let's make her eyeliner the same. Let's make um, you know, Chaz dress the same as a kid when he's an adult. So there's a lot of different things that that happen in in in prep. The better movies and TV shows that I've been a part of, you have the best pre-production going into it. So you're ready. You're it's like this podcast. You're prepared. You've done your homework, like anything in life. It's not luck that you just come across this movie. It's well written. They probably had an amazing prep. They had a talented crew, they had a talented group of people, and they they figure all this stuff out in in pre-production and or prep that when you start shooting, it's there. And then the magic happens because then these actors bring their own take to these these things, and then that's where the movie magic comes in. But you map out your shots, you do shot listing, which is something that some people probably don't think about. But the director and the director of photography will go to the location and then they look, they have a script, and then they say, This is this is the shot I want here. This is what we're trying to tell with this shot. This is where we want to have these sets built. We want to have these props, we want to have these extras, and that's when the ADs come in and say, Okay, we'll make sure that all this is there for West. As ADs, we make sure that that all the director has is support and all the things that he wants are there for him to kind of play with and paint with, and we we help with that process.

Ron 29:01

Yeah, I don't think people realize how much thought goes into it. There's so much that goes into making anything. The fact that anything gets made is amazing to me because of all the all that has to go into it. Like, even the detail that anyone that's reading a book in this film, they're reading a book that another character wrote. Or like in Etheline's like case, she's reading clippings that Eli sent her about himself. Richie's reading plays that Marg wrote.

SPEAKER_05 29:29

But it's it just adds depth to this world. And it's so incredible. I mean, it's just like I cannot say enough about this movie. I mean, it really is. It's just it's just incredible for those reasons, and I'm glad you picked up on that because it adds depth, it has it adds humor, it adds thought. Eli Cash, what a great character name. Is he's this writer. And he's he writes this book about If Custer didn't die. Little Bighorn. But did he die? That's what this book talks about.

Ron 30:00

This book presupposes that what if he didn't? That's so slight.

SPEAKER_05 30:03

What if he what if he didn't? You know, and then then it's this slow mo he uses slow motion so well too. And he's like walking through, and all these photographers are trying to take his picture and interview him, and then then it speeds up into regular motion, which is incredible. Um, but again, that's a choice that the director and director of photography make. But the fact that he is this writer and he's kind of down and out and he's getting interviewed, and he goes, Tell me, tell me about I think the book's name is Wildcat. Yeah, I think so. Which is a different book that he writes, and he's like, not a success. And he sits there and he's thinking about it, and he goes, And then he's just quiet, and then he just goes, Yeah, I'm gonna leave. And he walks out and they're watching it on TV, and they're like, He's on drugs, and it's just like so funny. And again, it's like this downward spiral, like he's on drugs, and you know, Royal is this kind of alcoholic smoker, and he's like faking his like cancer, and it's just again, it's just so genius, and you know, it reminds me of the scene when he's trying to get back, you know, in the family, and he's so desperate enough that he he says he's dying. I mean, talk about another like ballsy thing to do. Because a writer could have easily been like, he could just stay around and keep asking and and say, Oh, I just want to see the kids, I just want to meet my grandchildren. I just like in a normal life, that's probably what would happen. Like a grandfather that is realizing he's sort of the end of his life and he wants to see his kids that he's been kind of neglecting, and he just kind of keeps coming around saying, Please take me back. I apologize for my past. I I I'm so sorry. That's the easier arc. But the fact that he goes, All right, well, you know what I'm gonna say? I'm gonna have I'm gonna I'm gonna tell him I have cancer, even though I don't.

Ron 31:43

Like I like that they actually started to bring two of the kids back home before Royal approaches Ethel and lies about his cancer diagnosis because Chaz and his two boys show up at the house first. And I think they're having some sort of party. Looks like they think they're playing cards. Chaz is back, he's moving into the house back to his childhood home because he says their house is unsafe.

SPEAKER_05 32:03

Yeah. Which shows how neurotic he is because he's so worried that his wife has died and he's just he's his own their only parent, and he's just so worried about his kids and the neuroses that goes on with that. They had their bags packed, and Angelica Houston goes, Wait, but did you have your bags packed before you realized that you couldn't go back in?

Ron 32:21

And you go, it's just not safe. Ben Stiller asks Wes, why do are we wearing these red tracksuits? And Wes, there's something about these criterion releases that the audio commentary that accompanies these, it I've said this before on past episodes, that it's like my own personal film school because there's a variety of people that do these. In this one, it's just Wes. I've listened to others where it was I listened to the Thin Red Line commentary and it wasn't Terry Malik, it was two editors and someone a production designer or something. Like you get so much information from these. Anyway, Wes is asked by Ben Stiller why are we wearing the dread tracksuits? And Wes in the commentary says, I didn't really have an answer for him. Wes was thinking more in the lines of aesthetics. But what he said, he told Ben was that it was for safety, that if they were in a crowd, they could be spotted. If they were going walking along the road or crossing the street, they'd be seen so they wouldn't get hit by cars. And he's like, I thought that was a pretty good explanation. I'm like, what a freaking genius that you could think of that off the top of your head like that. Quick.

SPEAKER_05 33:21

You know, you you you have to come up with these quick answers sometimes because a lot of times these actors have so many questions about their character, and you do have to think fast as a director.

Ron 33:30

And being quick can save you big time. Well, Margot also decides to return home. She's locked in her bathroom smoking. She decides that she wants to go home because she's in a rut and she needs a change, and Raleigh, her husband, played by Bill Murray, is wondering what in the hell is going on here? And she returns home, and naughty naughty, Eli is in her closet wearing his underwear. And he puts his cowboy hat on.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Raleigh says you've been spending six hours a day locked in here watching television and soaking in the tub. I doubt that. I don't think that's very healthy to you, nor do I think it's very intelligent to keep an electrical gadget on the edge of the bathtub. I tried to the radiator. Well, it can't be very good for your eyes anyway. Taz came home. What do you mean? He and Arianusi are gonna stay with me for a little while. Why are they allowed to do that? I don't know exactly, but I think he's been very depressed. So am I. So are you what?

Ron 34:39

So this filming location, it's in an actual home. So when you have a lot of actors, all these actors are going to be in one location like this. What's a logistical challenge that you have to deal with? Because it's not like a set where you can say, you know what, this isn't gonna work. We'll just take this wall out, or we'll move things around. Like you can't do that in an actual home. I guess I just helped help you answer that question, didn't I? I didn't let you answer that. No, no, no, you're right.

SPEAKER_05 35:02

And it's tough. Like, locations are always harder than being on stage because it's a controlled environment. You you have the ability to move a wall, like you said, or you have all this extra space for all the equipment. That's something that I think most people don't understand is there's so much equipment and people involved that like if you're looking at a frame on a movie, just imagine that that outside the frame, within inches, is equipment and people making this movie. And with literally within inches, like I we were filming a scene on the morning show on Friday night, and I'm I'm on the edge of frame. Like Jennifer Aniston is here, and I'm just right there. I'm just on the edge above is there's lights, there's there's there's a boom that is picking up the dialogue just out of frame. And it's it's tough on location, and that house is probably tight, very tight. So uh on a logistics, what happens is is you you find a house, and then you have to figure out where you're where you're going to hold these actors when they're not working. So a lot of times you rent out a house next door, um, and it could be multiple houses. So, like one house is for the actors to hang out in when they're they're not filming, and you have to keep them happy, you have to make sure they're comfortable because if they get uncomfortable, then it it creates problems for for us. And then you have probably another house or another lot somewhere that has the trucks, you have the um the extras. If there's extras, they have to be kept in an area where they're comfortable and safe. Then you have another house probably that you have equipment there or they have equipment out on the street. So there's a lot of logistics that goes into it.

Ron 36:46

Um but does having one primary location like this make things a little simpler or more pressure because hey, this is our main location. We can't screw anything up here because if we screw it up here, it's gonna be screwed up for any other shot that we have down the line. Or does it make it easier or simpler? This is our main spot. We're gonna be doing a lot here.

SPEAKER_05 37:07

Less locations is usually hard um better. And if that's your main location and they probably spent months there, that makes it easier because you get to know it. But again, that happens in pre-production. You spend weeks figuring out these locations and you location scout. They may have had five or six other houses in mind, but they've chosen this one because of the ease that it would be to film in, but also it does tell the story. You it starts out with a location manager taking photos, and then if the director likes it, then those, oh, let's go see it. Then they go see it. It depends on the project. It could happen a year before. And there's also cost involved. So this house, they want eight hundred thousand dollars to film here, or they want a million. So then you go, Well, maybe we'll do the cheaper house because we can add more money to this part of the story. It's a whole production, as they say. Since it was a real house, that that makes it harder, but it also gives it more of a feel and it's a character rather than building it on a stage and just shooting like the exterior shot of it and then building these sets inside of it. Wes is probably a guy that probably likes the realness of it.

Ron 38:18

So the next scene is actually when Royal approaches Athlete on the street, asking for the family back, tells her that he's sick and he's gonna be dead within six weeks. But we know Royal's actual intentions because he has nowhere to live at this point when he's kicked out of that time. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 38:34

He's desperate.

Ron 38:35

And that's huge in storytelling. You want your protagonist to have this desperateness. He's so desperate that he has to lie and say that he's going to be dead in six weeks. Which makes me wonder like, what was the plan? Was the plan to have a miraculous recovery with your fake doctor? He's giving himself only six weeks to win the family back after 22 years of being away from Well, he didn't have a plan, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 38:58

He and then that that's that makes it funny. She starts crying and she gets super upset, and then he realizes, oh no, I've upset her. I don't know what to do. How do I react? And he says, Oh, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not dying. And then she she hits him hard. Yeah, she hits him pretty good. And it looks like she really hit him. And then he goes, Oh, wait, now what do I do? Because now she's pissed, and now I'm really not going to be able to come back. So he's goes back into his lie and says, I am dying. And she goes, Well, what's wrong? And then he just he just pats his stomach. What's wrong with you? And he just kind of goes, He pats his stomach. He doesn't really describe what his ailment, his his cancer is. It's just genius.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

What'd they say? What is the prognosis?

SPEAKER_04 39:44

Take it easy, I don't know. Hold on. Wait a second. But I need some time. A month or so. Okay. I want us I want us to Are you crazy? I thought maybe. I am dying.

Ron 40:22

The last person missing is Richie. And there's another use of slow motion that you mentioned earlier because off the bus comes Marg to greet Richie. And that slow motion, the use of that, I mean, he's already said I'm still in love with Marg because he sends that letter to Eli. But now the use of the slow motion of him watching her come off the bus makes it even more clear that he is in love with her. And now all the children, they're back under one roof. That's right. So are are ensemble scenes like these when we get everybody together, are those difficult days on set?

SPEAKER_05 40:52

They're so difficult. Well, because you have to think about it. So you have to get all these people ready. People ask me, what is an assistant directory? We're sort of like a logistical person in an army. We're like there to make sure everything goes smooth and the that we have all our equipment, we have all of our troops ready to go. I always kind of joke because there's so many people on the set that have their craft, and I go, Well, I don't really do anything. I just sort of stand here with my walkie-talkie saying, This is the set, this is the, you know, let's go, action, roll, cut, moving on. This is our next scene. But we watch everything happening, but we are like a conductor. I always say we're sort of like a maestro or like an orchestra leader. We're making sure all our instruments are in tune and are playing the same song. When you have a big ensemble, it's very difficult for many reasons. One is making sure that they are happy for one. They know what scene we're shooting, they know what time they're there. We have to add extra hair makeup people, extra costumers. Sometimes they have their personals that they will not work on a film without them. Getting these people ready is a challenge for us, um, and and making sure that they're there on time and then making sure that they are comfortable. But then blocking these scenes with all these these actors is tough because you have a lot of different coverage. So rather than just shooting a scene with one or two people, you have six, eight, ten people in a room. So that's extra coverage. You have to spend extra time shooting these actors, and and then it takes time.

Ron 42:26

There's a scene where Royal, we're not there yet, but when Royal is in his hospital bed or whatever it is, regular bed, I don't know what it is. Yeah. But uh almost every character in the movie's there, save for maybe Eli. But this scene where Royal is chapter three, when Royal wants to mend his relationship with his children, and Chaz having no interest in that, you have just Ben Stiller's character, Chaz. He's on his own. Gene Hackman is shot on his own, and then Marg and Richie, Luke and Gwyneth. I like to refer to people as their first names, like we're buddies. Yeah, it's good. That's right. I love it.

SPEAKER_05 42:59

They're sitting on a couch together.

Ron 43:00

So not they're not all necessarily together. For all we know, those are all on separate days. But those big ensemble group scenes like that where Henry calls out that Royal's full of shit. I'm not gonna jump ahead yet. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna bookmark this and we're gonna come back to that point. Yeah, because I don't want to get lost jumping around. Sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_05 43:20

Yep. You're the you're the director here, my friend.

Ron 43:23

Yeah, but I gotta keep the train on the tracks.

SPEAKER_05 43:25

So And I'm the actor. You know what I mean? This is this is little, this is your vision.

Ron 43:31

That's I gotta I gotta get my practice in. That's right. You're doing great. Uh Margot's with Eli, and Eli spills the beans that Richie is in love with her. Right. And it's a second hint that's really subtle that Eli is abusing drugs because they have this nice car in a back alley, graffiti everywhere, and he's knocking on it or he's using an intercom system or buzz system, whatever, to get in and out of this really shady spot. So fun. Yeah. He's like, Oh, I need to I need to pick something up. It's very strange. So Eli, he is an outsider. He's kind of forcing his way into this fame. We'll learn later that Margot has not ever been starved for affection. So the fact that she's with Eli, it's a little bit of a surprise now, but later, I'm like, oh, right. Right. She's, you know, she's a little promiscuous, I suppose. Do you ever treat certain characters in how you stage them differently to show this person is an outsider? Or just a way to show more about this character without actually saying it using dialogue.

SPEAKER_05 44:32

Well, you know, thinking about this character, I just think that they did it so well. He's a writer, he's dressed differently, he's on drugs. Those are all the things that are different about him than than the Tennin Bombs. That's a way to show it. Um they the drug use, he drives his crazy car, he's a writer, probably the influence from the Tennembaums growing up with them, but he writes different things and he's you know, he wants to be with with Margot, probably to get in the family, right? Because if he's with her, then you know he's now the son-in-law. And so there's a lot th those are those are great reasons right there.

Ron 45:06

Some of the camera choices are really interesting that Wes and whoever the DP is, because Royal approaches Ari and Uzi, those are Chaz's kids. Great child actors, by the way. Oh, yeah, they were great. And Royal's using the kids as a way to weasel his way in with Chaz, because Chaz seems to be very anti-Royal. He wants nothing to do with Royal. Right. And he and Royal is going to use the kids to get his way in there. So when Ethelane and Royal are speaking on the street back in chapter two, I believe, there's a s there's a segment there where they are on the right side of the frame and the whole left and they are just taking up maybe a quarter of the frame, and the left side has a big tree in it. That's funny. I I saw that, I noticed that last night. Yeah, it's great. I so that long dolly shot, which is you know, great dolly shot. Yep. Like the idea of Royal speaking to the boys and there's a fence between them, that I artistically understand. We're representing that Royal is separate from the family. He's not yet, you know, he he's literally on separate sides of the fence. The the random tree in the frame, I just can't hammer down the reason for that.

SPEAKER_05 46:09

You're so right. And it's so cool. I just think that they they came up uh upon it and they decided to just to to use it. A lot of times when you dive deep into this stuff and then you're on set, it's like very much like it probably just came to be so organically that they they just went, Well, we like it. And Robert Yeoman is the DP and he's done a bunch of his movies, and he's a genius in his own right, because all these movies he's done are just gorgeous. Sometimes things just come together like a recipe, um, you know, in in in a in a great dish. This is this just came together so wonderfully, but it can also go the opposite way, and it can be really great on paper, but it doesn't come out well for whatever reason.

Ron 46:54

There's so many reasons it's it's it's like a high wire act in some respects, because Royal is a weasel, and but he's also immensely charming. Is that something that is Gene Hackman performance? Is it writing? Is it direction? Is it all those things kind of wrapped into one? All those things wrapped into one. Very, very well said. It's um I think like that's I don't want to like I don't want to like Royal because he's kind of like a sh a freeloading absent father. I don't want to like him, but god damn it, is he charming?

SPEAKER_05 47:26

I think most great films, the main character has flaws because we as humans all have flaws, and we can relate to this person, then start to care for him. And without a leading character, without those qualities, your movie cannot be as dynamic. With Royal, the charm comes from that, you know? It's something that you can relate to, and that's what's makes him lovable.

Ron 47:52

The next scene they're at the Maddox Hill Cemetery. We learn that Richie's meltdown as a tennis pro, which the scene is kind of I'm a big sports person, and it makes me laugh. A tennis pro would be served a ball and he would send it like out of the arena, and his return shot is just ridiculous. But he was pissed because Marg had married Raleigh. There's a scene with Eli and Richie back together again, Lucano and Wilson. For some reason, they have great chemistry. I wonder why that is. Yeah. Chapter four, Royal calls Richie and convinces him to talk to the family about Royal coming to stay at the house. And of course, during that family discussion, it comes out that Royal's already upstairs. He's already weaseled his way.

SPEAKER_05 48:33

He's already upstairs.

Ron 48:34

He's already up there. And Chaz goes up and he tries to throw him out. And the bellhop, if you're not paying attention, you think it's an actual doctor, but it's actually uh bell oh shoot. See, this is a great actor, and I should have written it down.

SPEAKER_05 48:47

He's a character actor, and he's a character actor. He's the um hotel elevator operator, and so he's his he's his buddy because he was staying in that hotel, and and he kind of brings him along and says, you know, you have to fake like your adopter, although they don't say they don't show that. But that's again the genius of the movie. It's like all of a sudden you see him as the as the elevator, you know, bellhop, and then he's all of a sudden at the doctor, and because they showed him so clearly earlier, then you immediately go, Oh, this is hilarious because he's yeah, and if you've watched Phil Oh, Seymour Castle.

Ron 49:22

So if you've seen Seymour Castle, yeah, yeah. So if you've seen any movies with him in it, he's a very recognizable voice, it's a recognizable face. So it's a perfect person to put in that role to be like, oh wait, I've seen that guy before. That guy's not a freaking doctor. What the hell's he doing? Hilarious, absolutely hilarious. Uh Royal catches Eli sneaking out of the house.

unknown 49:39

Yeah.

Ron 49:40

Royal calls I know you asshole. I know you asshole. Yeah. And Royal calls Margot out over her infidelity, which Margot is like, get the hell out of here, man. You haven't been in my light for 22 years, and you're going to have the guts to come in here and act like my father. Are you crazy? Raleigh then can Oh, and then but Raleigh's then on the roof with Richie confiding that he thinks she's having an affair. Richie explodes in anger. There's so much happening.

SPEAKER_05 50:05

Punches the whole punches punches the window, which is not so funny.

Ron 50:09

It was not scripted. It cuts really quickly afterwards because Wes was like, oh shit, is he okay? Because that wasn't supposed to be something that happened. So he had he ran over and checked in with.

SPEAKER_05 50:19

Thanks for telling me that. That's so great.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

I believe she's having an affair. I'm utterly devastated. I don't know where else to turn. Will you advise me? I don't know. What do you want to do? I don't know. Perhaps find the guy and get him?

Ron 50:40

Well, no, I probably there's arguments, there's secrets, people are coming and going, and it never feels confusing. No. So is this something that you watch differently when you have all this coming and going? Or is this just like another day on set, this is another scene? Because I guess you don't really you're not cutting the film together. Like you may not have that editor's eye in mind, but when you see this after the fact, have you ever seen something come together and after the fact meant, oh man, it just all clicked for me. This is so cool.

SPEAKER_05 51:08

A good director and an AD actually thinks like an editor in a way of, oh, you can use it this way or you can cut to this. That's the beauty. It's like you see these actors do these things that you're not expecting, and you're like, oh, that's so cool. You then you watch the final product and you're like, they didn't use this, or they decided to go this way with it. That it just speaks to the cast in this movie, and they're all so talented, and they've had these amazing careers for a reason.

Ron 51:33

There's another there's a lot of montages in this movie, and we get one here with Royal and Arianuzi. They're having fun with uh grandfather and grandkids. They jump in a pool, there's horses, there's go-karts, water balloons, there's shoplifting, there's riding a garbage truck, there's dog fighting. This feels pretty chaotic, but do you feel like the movie is letting Royal win us over, even though we probably shouldn't be feeling this way? Because the sequence changes how I felt about Royal as a character. Did that work on you as well?

SPEAKER_05 52:06

100%. It just shows that he actually does have a good heart, even though he's taking him in places that he probably shouldn't.

Ron 52:11

But dog fighting and shoplifting. It's not just like showing he's connecting with his grandkids, they're doing illegal shit.

SPEAKER_05 52:21

Yeah, and the shit they're doing, though, it's so important because these kids, well, there's so many reasons why it's such a great scene. One, the montage works perfectly. Again, the music with Paul Simon's song, they are doing stuff that I think you don't want your kids to do, but it's important for kids to kind of go out and do that kind of stuff. And they're not getting that from their dad, has them working out. I think he's I think the kid says 16 times a week or something.

Ron 52:48

Yeah, and he has them very sheltered, very guarded. He's very guarded. Like, I'm gonna prepare you for bad things to happen, even though I'll never put you in a position where something bad could happen. Although at the end of the film, he doesn't have them in a position where they could get hurt, and they almost do get severely hurt. So no matter what amount of protection he's trying to put on them, he can't protect them from everything.

SPEAKER_05 53:08

That's right. And it just speaks again to something that you can relate to growing up. So maybe some of these the people in the audience have have parents like that. I mean, who knows? Maybe Wes's parents were like that, and or maybe he knew someone that had that, you know, going on. Gene Hackman says that in the movie. He's like, I'm talking about going out and cutting it up and and and and being out in in the streets or whatever he says. I can't remember the line, but it's it's just like his way of saying, like, all right, these kids are so sheltered, I want to show them a good time in my way of of uh of relating to them. And it just it also makes him more lovable because it shows that he cares. Even though he's taking them to these crazy dangerous places, he's spending time with them and showing them a good time.

Ron 53:52

And Chaz is not happy, Chaz doesn't even know why what they were doing, and he's unhappy because the kids were gone. And this is when he pulls Royal into that closet full of board games. He's clearly not happy with Royal. And Royal actually calls Chaz out on not recovering from his wife's death. So even though Royal is kind of a deadbeat dad, he was right to call out Margo for infidelity. He's right to call out Chaz on, look, you need help. You have not recovered from something incredibly traumatic that has happened to you. And what you're doing with your kids is probably not the best thing for them. You're doing what's best for you. And he calls him out on it, and he's right. And this this confrontation in a closet full of board games was obviously a deliberate choice. That stuff doesn't happen by accident. What thought goes into choosing a space like that for a scene? It's very small, it's a very intimate spot.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

Yeah, well, that's the thing. So they they thought about it and said, you know what, let's do it in the closet with board games. So then that that brings him back to childhood. One of the things that's so special about this movie is these kids needed a dad and they they didn't have it. They needed him for their guidance. And they're slowly starting to realize he starts to become sort of the voice of reason, and he he kind of ends up being a good dad in a way of like, you've obviously not recovered from your wife's death. He starts to tell Gwyneth, you shouldn't be cheating on your husband. He starts to talk to Richie, you know, Luke, you know, what happened out there with your meltdown on the table.

Ron 55:19

Yeah, that later conversation on the roof.

SPEAKER_05 55:20

Right.

Ron 55:21

Richie Farmer confides it in like, I'm in love with her, you know?

SPEAKER_05 55:24

Yeah. And then then he he he's there for them in a way that he hadn't been. And so it's special.

Ron 55:31

But at the same time, it's a guy that's faking stomach cancer. Like, what the hell? You know, it's like taking the shortcut to get back into someone's life instead of actually doing the right things to get back into their lives. God, but he's so damn charming.

SPEAKER_05 55:46

They were missing out on that type of advice and father leadership and love. And then he shows back up and he kind of just steps in in his weird way, but he's kind of guiding them and helping them. And and I know it's out of the timeline, but even when he's in the the the ambulance, Ben Stiller, who's the kid who had the most resentment towards him, he is there and he says, I love you, my boy. You could cry in that moment. I think I I have. And you know, it's just a father-son bond that is there that so many people can relate with.

Ron 56:22

Well, chapter five starts, and Royal again is turning on the charm as he's on his walk with Etheline. And Henry and Royal have a confrontation here in the kitchen. Royal's being being overtly racist. He he says some things to Henry throughout the movie. He calls him Coltrane in this scene, which obviously he's he's you know, he's he's not being kind to Henry. He's a bad guy in a lot of ways. But the film makes him likable.

SPEAKER_03 56:47

Are you trying to steal my woman?

Ron 56:51

I beg your pardon.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

You heard me, Coltrane.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Coltrane. Did you just call me Coltrane?

SPEAKER_01 57:01

No.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

You didn't.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

But if I did, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, would you?

SPEAKER_02 57:16

You don't think so?

SPEAKER_03 57:17

No, I don't.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

Listen, Royal. You think you can win.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

You want to talk some jive?

SPEAKER_02 57:23

I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you never heard. Oh yeah? Right on! Sit down! What? What did you say? I said sit down! I heard you! I want you out of my house! This is not you! Don't talk somatics with me. No, that's just not you! What's going on here?

Ron 57:40

There's something about the willingness to forgive family for wrongdoings. If this is a random person that acted this way, you would have to do a lot to redeem yourself. But if that's a family member, you don't have to do as much for redemption because the you know blood is thicker than water.

SPEAKER_05 57:57

Yep, you're right. And I think that that is so funny in such so many wrong ways, but it shows that the this guy has Yeah. I hate to say this guy he calls him cold training.

Ron 58:07

I'm like, oh my god, Royal.

SPEAKER_05 58:08

Well, also when he looks at him and he goes, Look at that old black buck, it's like, oh my God. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like it's it's racist in a way that you still want to give him a chance because he's this 70-year-old guy who's like probably an alcoholic, and again, he's faking his own debt, like cancer, and he's been this like derelict father. And so again, it's relatable. People in other generations have this, these, these idiosyncrasies. Maybe they're racist, maybe they're alcoholics, maybe they're sexists, maybe they're they they they ignore their kids and they're not stand-up father. And so there's he has all these qualities that you just normally go, Oh my god, this guy is terrible. But then you have these scenes where he's bonding with his grandchildren and he's giving fatherly advice and he's calling out his kids for not doing the right thing. So it's a balance of humor and things that are offensive, but at the same time, it balances it with the his good qualities and his charm.

Ron 59:07

Well, it all goes to shit because Henry has had enough of it. He spies them walking and and then he finds a tic-tac instead of medication. He's like, Is that a tic-tac? Yeah. Which is over. And Henry calls him out about the stomach cancer in front of the entire family. So it's not a confrontation between Henry and Royal. He gets the whole family up there. And to me, that changed the impact of all of it coming out at once, as opposed to it being a private moment. And Royal is packed and he is out the door again. And this is when Pagoda, and that actor, I don't know his name, he actually passed over a decade ago, I want to say. And he stabs him with a pocket knife. The real stabbing of Royal is whenever he says to Marg about Henry, he's not your father, and Margo says, Neither are you. And that has a double meaning because she is adopted, he really isn't her father. And also when he had an opportunity to be her father when she was a child, he never fully accepted her as a tenanbaum.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:07

That's right. Without those confrontations with him being racist and calling him names, and then they start to argue and scream at each other. Without that, then I don't think the Danny Glover character would have called him out. Yeah. So those scenes are critical because of that. So if they guys just got along, or maybe they had some weird awkwardness to them, they take it to another level. And again, it's humor, but it's also conflict. So without that conflict, I don't think Danny Glover's character would have called him out.

Ron 1:00:40

Yeah, that's a good point. We jump, we jump then next where we get in chapter six, we get more of a focus on Margot. A private investigator was hired by Raleigh to see what Marg's been up to. And another montage on Margot, and this is this one is on Margot Tenenbaum and for whole her whole life. And what Raleigh takes from it is that she smokes, which is a great comedic timing line from Bill Murray. And Richie's pissed. And Raleigh reads Margot's, it's essentially her sexual history, plus that she smokes. He focuses on something so small, and then Richie reacts with emotion. What do you think that says about how these two characters see Marg?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:15

Yeah, Richie loves her, obviously. She's like the stepsister, and she's not blood, and it's weird still. Weirdness in this movie is so perfect because it's just weird enough, but at the same time, you go, well, she's adopted.

Ron 1:01:28

Broyle finds his way back into the hotel. Turns out that he's now working at the hotel. That's how he found his way back. And we get another really quick cutting montage when Richie is cutting his hair and shaving his beard. He's thinking of Margot, and he attempts suicide, which Dudley, Dudley's the little boy that Raleigh was running tests on at the beginning of the film and kind of always seems to be in Raleigh's sidecar. This moment really caught me off guard because it's pretty raw. It's it's pretty graphic compared to the rest of the film. It's disturbing. Yeah, it's very disturbing. And it's it's I don't know, because you've seen a little bit of everything, does that change how you experience when you experience heavy material on screen? Does that change how you experience that as an audience member? Because this definitely caught me off guard. And because I'm thinking these pastel colors, this unique Wes Anderson style, there's comedy. Well, what's going on with this absent father? And all of a sudden, a pretty bloody suicide attempt here near the tail end of the film.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:29

It's very disturbing and graphic, and I think that it just takes a dark turn, which is interesting for this movie. And I I kind of came out of nowhere, but it again it keeps you on your toes as an audience member. Um and I I think working on a film, it's very much like if the tone of the movie is a comedy, you're like happy, go lucky, and you're having fun with it, and you're laughing, and it's still very, very hard and stressful. But then you get these these scenes that are dark like that, and and then you you feel the mood change within the crew and the actors and everything. I I try to avoid movies that have these kind of dark undertones, but it's real because people take their lives and it's it's something that happens, and it kind of reminds you of wow, life's delicate, and he's doing it over love, and he's he's doing it over his family crisis. And um, yeah, it's it's it's very, very heavy and and and sad. And the fact that he lives, it propels him and Margot together because then he escapes the hospital and then sh comes back home and she's in his tent listening to records, and again, another great song. And so that that is another moment that sends you into this other m important moment.

Ron 1:03:42

Yeah, Royal shows up at the hospital. He does this feel like a different royal at this point. He's starting to change, even though he's trying to insert himself into hey, look, you shouldn't be cheating on Raleigh. Hey, look, you're not over your wife's death. But this feels this felt different to me when he showed up at the hospital.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:00

Well, again, they've they've kicked him out, he's desperate, but he also loves his son. He's the one that really wanted to accept Royal back into the family. And so he has this part of his heart that loves him maybe a bit more than the others because he's been accepting of him all along. Um so he when he hears that he's in the hospital and attempted suicide, he rushes there to his side because of that that bond.

Ron 1:04:28

Whenever Margot and Richie are in the tent, he admits that he loves her and they kiss. My wife had was not watching the whole movie. She just caught she was kind of in and out catching pieces of it. And she sees that scene and said, Wait a minute, I thought they were siblings. I did learn from Wes Anderson that in the original script they were supposed to be just straight up siblings. And they changed it to adopted, thank God. And I said, No, she's adopted, they're not blood relatives. And she said, Still weird.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:53

It's totally still weird, but I think I didn't realize that that that was in the original script, which it would be too weird. I think.

Ron 1:05:00

But this doesn't come across, like for me, I guess I've seen it, I've seen the movie quite a few times. Yeah, I don't know why. It doesn't come across as shocking or uncomfortable to me for some reason.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:08

No, it doesn't, and again, that's why it's perfect. It's it's a little it's a little weird, but it's not that weird. And they have this weird kind of again, eccentric family, dysfunctional family. Um, that's again, it doesn't really surprise me, and it's just part of the the um nuance and and and um you know strangeness of this world. Definitely strange.

Ron 1:05:31

Yeah. Royal's had his mentor moments with two of the kids, and now to start chapter seven, he gets that with Richie on the rooftop. Richie confides in Royal and says that he's in love with Margot. And Royal comes around and I mean he he's not on board with it at first. He's kind of like, isn't that your sister? Uh he does come around to support him eventually. Richie spots Mordecai. Yes. Mordecai then lands.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:54

I'm so glad you're saying that because I have it circled in my notes, because that is so great to me.

Ron 1:05:59

What does that represent? For Richie, that when he set he sets Mordecai free, and then now at this moment where he's having a redemptive moment with Royal, and now Mordecai lands and returns. What does that represent for Richie?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:12

Well, I think that the the hawk is so amazing in a lot of ways. And I was watching this last night, and I said to my wife, I said, God, what don't it be so cool to have a hawk? Those birds are so powerful and they're so um amazing. But the fact that he let the hawk go was a moment in his story, like letting go of the past. And then the fact that he's up there with his dad, who hadn't been around in years and years, and they're having this heartfelt conversation. The fact in that moment that the bird comes back is a is a powerful moment. Like, wow, this bird actually cared for me and remembered where it lived and traveled who knows how far to come back. Is is this and again, it's just such a special scene.

Ron 1:06:57

This is where I really started to buy that Royal is changing. I just feel uh feel the genuineness. I don't even know if that's a word either. I'm making shit up as we go here. I feel the genuineness from Royal at this point. I'm starting to buy that he's changing. Because then they both go to Eli's and they offer to help him with his drug abuse. That's right. And then Royal shows up to Ethylene and offers finally an official divorce. So there's now the sequences of redemptive acts from Royal. Yeah. That I start to think, okay, he's he's starting to get it now. It's not fake being sick, so my family comes around to caring for me. It's show support, show your love in what you say and what you do. I'm starting to buy Royal is changing, even though I still think he's kind of an asshole. I still I still start to buy that he's changing.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:44

It's so well done. The fact that he starts this progressive steps to move on and do the right thing. So that's one of the steps. He says, Here's your divorce papers. And then the cool part is he goes, you know, always love you. I think that's something like that. He's not gonna ever stop loving her, but he's gonna do the right thing because he realizes that she'll never have him back. And then it just it just starts to all come together at that moment, and that's kind of one of the starting points. And um, you know, and it all starts to come together and get wrapped up in this chapter.

Ron 1:08:18

Well, he has his last redemptive act that we see or at least hear about is in chapter eight when Henry and Etheline, it's their wedding day, and of course they're getting married at the house, because why wouldn't they? And Eli, on a bit of a drug bender, it seems, crashes his car in front of the house, and Royal saves Arianuzi. They can't save the dog, unfortunately, which again is like another one of those, oh my god, to leave the dog alone. I know. That's the worst. And Chaz he realizes what happens, and that Eli almost essentially killed his children, and he goes after Eli. And what I thought was a pretty fun chase scene throughout the house, which I imagine is not easy to stage and plan. No. And Chaz throws Eli over a wall and they lie down in a Zen garden.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:03

Did I hit the dog? Yeah. Is he dead? Yeah. I need help. So do I.

Ron 1:09:25

Royal saving Arianuzi, that feels like the closest thing that they can give to redemption for Royal.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:33

Yeah, he saves them, and then I think that really puts Ben Stiller in a point of like, you know what, I need to forgive him for his past and move forward. Saves my son's lives, and really cool. And then laying in that Zen garden is as perfect, and they both are laying there realizing, like, my life's a mess. I need to change.

Ron 1:09:51

Yeah, they both they both say they I think uh Eli says he needs help, and and Chad says I do too, or something.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:57

Exactly. And it's so perfect, and it the way it's shot, and they're just laying there, just like, all right, we fought and we realized we need help.

Ron 1:10:05

There's a there's a panning shot that we get where it's it's when Royal's on the he's talking to the Dalmatian in the fire truck, and we pretty much have all of our characters here. Yeah, and that that that brings almost everybody back together. So what are you doing on set? Because that's not like that's not like looking at your call sheet being like, all right, we need these people at this time and these people at this time. You're getting everybody in one panning shot to bring everything together. So I imagine that's pretty stressful. Yeah. But it but the way that it's thinking about it. Yeah, but the final product looks effortless.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:38

Oh, yeah. I mean, these are pros. I mean, they're these are these are pros and they're genius and they're so everything's coming together. But yeah, getting those people ready is tough. I mean, um what what happens is is you usually start, it just depends. Like sometimes you get them all ready and rehearse and figure out your shots, then they go back and finish getting ready, then they come back, and then you start piecing it together. Or you start your day with a smaller scene, maybe with like you know, Ben Stiller and Owen or whatever. You start with that shot, and that gives you an opportunity to get the rest of the cast ready and dressed in through hair makeup up there while you're focusing on your few hours with those other other casts. So it's it's just it's it's such a crazy puzzle. And I still like you, like it's it's shocking that it all comes together.

Ron 1:11:24

Um it's wild. I've gotten to the movie nerd level, whatever that whatever if there were levels I'm nearing the top where I look at that stuff and I'm like, god damn it, that's cool. Because yeah, he's using so many different techniques, and one of them I noticed on the latest watch is all the different montages that if you watch it again, you're like, oh, montage, montage, montage. There's one here at the end, too, where they bury Buckley. Finally, Etheline and Henry get married. Margot, we see her next play that is mirroring their lives as Tenabom children. Raleigh and Dudley are on a promo tour for Raleigh's new book, which is great. Eli is in rehab. Richie is teaching tennis to children, and then Royal's Royal's death, but you know, he died fight. What was it? He's on a battleship or something. I can't remember what the what the head said.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:12

Oh, right. Yeah, they put it on his gravestone that he like died in battle in a battleship or something like that.

Ron 1:12:17

Even though he just had a heart attack. It was uh tragically died tragically rescuing his family from the wreckage of a destroyed sinking battleship. Yeah. And then the epilogue is just, you know, Royal is leaving behind his his set of encyclopedias, which feels like a pretty strange choice. And a BB gun and a BB gun salute to Royal at his funeral, which feels very fitting. And, you know, not for nothing, everybody's there at the funeral. You know, if if if you have an estranged parent that's been absent from your life for 20 plus years and then they end up passing in another five or six years, is everybody attending that funeral? Right. I'm not so sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:55

Yeah, you're right. But yeah, it just it goes to show he he did leave his mark, and with all that chaos and those montage pieces show is even though he was the this deadbeat dad, his last chapter was so important to that family. And and again, that's why that that's where the heart comes in because it's not just these beautiful shots and this great music and these great casts. This script shows and it comes together perfectly at the end and shows that his impact helped these his kids and helped the family.

Ron 1:13:30

It helped them get their lives back on track. Right. They've been off track for a long time, and it showed that his selfishness, which then became selflessness as the movie went on, helped kind of get them back on track. I know. So it's a it's a brilliant that's it's so well repeated. It's brilliant. You know, doing these things, I literally look at the films that people select and say, Nope, don't get it. And then I start to really watch it, watch it multiple times and do the research and be like, oh shit, now I get it. Yep. And then have these conversations and be like, now I really get it. Whatever the next stage is as getting it. You know, having these conversations shed so much different light on how the movie was made and things that go on behind the scenes and how it's all put together and the themes, it's all I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:10

Oh yeah. That this has only cemented the fact that this is probably my favorite movie of all time because of all these layers and all the emotion and all the humor. If you start to dig in a movie and you realize, well, maybe this isn't like worth the criterion, or maybe this isn't something that I love, but it's only made it even more in a in an important piece of art in film.

Ron 1:14:34

Well, in my mind. You're gonna get your opportunity here to sum it up. So we close every episode of this podcast where the guests they get to give their answer to why this film. So why the Royal Tenenbombs? Why does it deserve its place in the Criterion Collection? It's a perfect film.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:51

The cast is probably the best ensemble cast I've ever seen. The music is fantastic, the characters are so complex, the humor is fantastic, but there's so much heart to it. The way it's shot is impeccable, the production design is top-notch. The way the script was written to show these people, and immediately you're in this world, and the fact that we're still talking about it was shot in 2001, and it's a movie you can keep watching and you keep noticing these intricacies and um this depth and these layers is the reason why it's in the criterion.

Ron 1:15:38

Thank you again to Chris Cook for taking the time to speak with me about the Royal Tenon Bonds. If you'd like to support the show for as little as $3 a month, you can do so by selecting the support the show link in the episode description. You can follow the podcast on Instagram for updates and subscribe on YouTube for full video versions of each episode. Links also in the description below. Next time, I'll be joined by President of Darkstar Pictures, Michael Rept, to discuss Kagemusha. Thanks again for listening. Please be sure to follow, share, keep an eye out for the next episode.