Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio (2022, Guillermo del Toro & Mark Gustafson) with Caleb Tyson - Criterion Collection Spine #1201

"It's a perfectly imperfect film."

In this episode of Why This Film?, I'm joined by film editor Caleb Tyson to explore Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio (2022), the Academy Award-winning stop-motion feature and Criterion Collection entry that reimagines one of the world's oldest stories through an entirely new lens.

Set in Mussolini's fascist Italy, del Toro's Pinocchio follows a grieving woodcarver named Geppetto who, lost in sorrow after losing his son Carlo, carves a puppet from a pine tree grown near his son's grave. When a wood sprite brings the puppet to life, Pinocchio must navigate a world that sees him as either a miracle or a monster - all while Geppetto struggles to accept this strange new creation for what it is, rather than who he wishes it could be. 

Caleb Tyson brings his perspective as a working film editor and animator to the conversation. His background in pacing, rhythm, and visual storytelling gives him a uniquely technical eye for how del Toro uses stop-motion, shadow, score, and imperfection to build a world that feels entirely tactile and alive.

Together we move through the film scene by scene and discuss:

• How del Toro uses fascist Italy as a backdrop to ask: who is the real puppet?
• Guillermo del Toro's craft - his use of lighting, intentional imperfection, and stop-motion animation
• The Christ imagery woven throughout the film and what del Toro is saying with it
• Themes of grief, identity, disobedience, forgiveness, and the father-son dynamic at the heart of the story
• The film's voice cast, including Ewan McGregor, Cate Blanchett, Christoph Waltz, Tilda Swinton, and David Bradley
• Why a puppet who refuses to obey is more human than the people around him
• Why Pinocchio earns its place in the Criterion Collection as a perfectly imperfect film

Hollywood ManeStays - Not a pin, not a clip. Just Better.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_07 0:23

I think it's a perfectly imperfect film.

Ron 0:26

Hello everybody, my name is Ron and welcome to Why This Film, a podcast where we explore the artistry, cultural impact, and legacy of movies in the Criterion Collection. Each episode I sit down with experts in Cinophiles to ask, why was this film chosen for the collection? And why does it still matter today? In this episode, we're stepping into a dark fairy tale with Pinocchio. Criterion Spine number 1201, the 2022 stop motion film from director Guillermo Toro, co-directed by Mark Gustafson. Heart fable, war story, and exploration of what it means to be human, Pinocchio reimagines the classic tale against the backdrop of fascist Italy. When a wooden puppet is brought to life by a grieving woodcarver, his spirit sets him on a path through a world where obedience is demanded, but individuality comes at a cost. Brought to life through stop-motion animation and featuring voices, from Ewan McGregor, David Bradley, Kate Blanchett, Tilda Swinton, Finn Wolfhard, Ron Perlman, John Traturo, and Christoph Waltz, the film transforms a familiar story into something far more haunting and reflective. My guest today is Caleb Tyson, a multi-award-winning editor and a longtime Guerra del Toro fan. Caleb's work spans editorial storytelling and animation. His YouTube channel, Super Ammo, where he shares his editing work, has garnered over 10 million total views. He's worked with Animatics and most recently edited three episodes of the streaming series Great Battles for Boys for Angel Studios. As someone who spends his days thinking about how stories are constructed frame by frame, Caleb brings a unique perspective to a film like Pinocchio, a movie where every shot was built one painstaking movement at a time, and where the editing had to hold together grief, comedy, and chaos all at once. This makes him the perfect guest to help us unpack Del Toro's reimagining of a 150-year-old story. And with that, here's my conversation with Caleb Tyson. You actually went back and you read the original story? Yeah. How old is that story?

SPEAKER_07 2:16

That's gotta be pretty old, because the movie the Disney film's pretty old. It was written in 1881. It was originally published as like segments of the story. Um, and I think it was fully released in 84. 1884. But it's like Pinocchio's like 150 years old.

Ron 2:31

So why why do people keep coming back to this story? It keeps getting retold. I know Guillermo has his own way of thinking and presenting things. A la, the latest Frankenstein movie. Yeah. But why do people want to keep retelling this story?

SPEAKER_07 2:44

The way I think about it, honestly, I was not interested in Pinocchio until I saw Guillermo's film. I never saw the Disney version. I never cared to see the Disney version. You're killing me here.

Ron 2:55

You're killing me.

SPEAKER_07 2:55

Weren't you a child once? I was a child, but I never I never watched it in full. I've seen like bits and pieces of it, but I never really cared to seek it out to watch it. But once I mean, since then I I've watched the Disney Pinocchio, and I think it's just like any fairy tale or any myth, if you look at like the Iliad or the Odyssey or Pinocchio, or I'm blanking on other fairy tales, Alice Wonderland. You went with you went with the Odyssey in Pinocchio. That's because it's what I'm reading right now, so that's what I remember. Or Beowulf and the Green Knight, like these stories have like a lot of morals that are pretty clear in them that can easily be retold and like told in a new and fresh way. So I think it's just I think when you have a story like this that has a very clear uh message to it, it's it's a lot easier to um kind of add your own spin to it. And you know, how many times do people go back to the theater to watch the new Star Wars movie? It's it's familiar and you can and you can do something new with it. Uh I don't know. I think I think people are kind of drawn to that. A Christmas Carol is another one. Yes. That's true. Gets retold constantly.

Ron 4:02

You had a film for a living. So when you sit down to watch a movie like this that's made with this specific type of animation style, does your is your editor brain shut up or are you watching it different than us normies?

SPEAKER_07 4:16

Uh I mean, when I watch any movie, it doesn't really matter if it's animation or live action or stop motion or whatever it is. Yes and no. If the editor's doing a good job, then I'm not noticing it. I mean, the job of an editor is to not be noticed. They're the invisible hand behind the movie. A lot of what people say is movie gets written in pre-production, it gets written again in production, and then it gets rewritten a third time in post-production. An editor is very much like a writer. Um, and if they do their job well, you can't really notice that they're doing their job. Now, there are bad examples of that. But when I was watching this film, I can't say I was thinking about it too much because the storyline and the way it was animated was so kind of kind of just captured captured me. And I didn't really think about the editing much until afterwards, which is a very good sign when an editor does a good job like that.

Ron 5:08

The stop motion's pretty amazing. My brain was constantly getting distracted because I was wondering, wait, how'd they do that? How long did that take? No, Fantastic Mr. Fox is another one with a similar animation style.

SPEAKER_07 5:20

Yes, it's funny you say that because the the other director, Mark, I forget his last name. I should know it. Mark Gustafson. Yes, he worked on Fantastic Mr. Fox.

Ron 5:31

You're a big Del Toro fan. What makes him the right person to tell this version of Pinocchio?

SPEAKER_07 5:36

In my opinion, Del Toro is one of the best working directors today, and he is the best at making myths and fan or myths and fairy tales. I think that he just he understands them really, really well. Whether you've seen it recently with Frankenstein, you see it even with like with Hellboy or Blade 2, like all of these Pan's Labyrinth. I mean, the list goes on and on. Like he knows how to craft these fairy tale and mythical worlds, but still make them super relatable. Pinocchio is naturally that. It's a fairy tale, and it's a genre that he's perfected.

Ron 6:12

One of the biggest changes here is he set the story in Fascist Italy, and we have to bring this up because it's a major discussion point for this version of the story. So, what did you make of that choice to take Pinocchio to Mussolini's World War I era, Italy?

SPEAKER_07 6:28

If you think about anybody in that that lives in a fascist regime, they're basically brainwashed and in a way they're puppets of whoever is the leader. So I think it's really fascinating to put that in a story about a puppet, and they're also using puppets to animate them. So it's like layer on layer on layer on layer. I think it just says a lot about, you know, should this authority be obeyed? And I think Pinocchio directly challenges that.

Ron 6:52

Yeah, I'm a little upset right now because that seems like such an obvious analogy to make, and I didn't even think of it. I was like, oh, I guess I'll just ask about that because I'll let him do all the brain work for me.

SPEAKER_07 7:02

Yeah, no. I didn't I didn't think on my first viewing, I didn't think about it at all. I I mean it was only once I dug into it more, and then I, you know, it makes me appreciate it a lot more.

Ron 7:12

Are you correct me if I'm wrong, you were talking about that you were getting into animation? You're not you weren't getting into stop motion, you're just talking about.

SPEAKER_07 7:18

Well, I did stop motion as a kid with my Lego Batman, but that's a little different.

Ron 7:22

It wasn't on the Del Toro level of stop motion. No, can we see that anywhere?

SPEAKER_07 7:26

And I don't think Criterion picked it up either. You never know. There's still time. There's still time. What is the animation you're getting into now? I'm doing mostly cell-shaded animation, so I'm editing it. I'm not actually designing it. But so I work with like animatic boards, I sound designed the entire episode.

Ron 7:43

Getting into that, then did that change how you viewed this film on a technical level with how it looks and how it sounds?

SPEAKER_07 7:51

100%. I mean, yeah, I I think what when I was going through the bonus features, I mean, cell-shaded animation and stop motion are two very different animation styles. But what just really impressed me about it is, especially with the animation, is you know, one shot in this movie could take up to three months to make. In one week, they would get maybe get three seconds done. Like, that's insane. That's dedication. And Del Toro wrote this script 15 years ago before the film was made. So he's been like sitting on it for a while. Now they didn't start making it until, you know, I don't know, maybe 2018, 2019. But still, that's a long time to have something in development and not know if it's gonna ever come to fruition.

Ron 8:33

That's funny because I know that he had this his idea for the story of Frankenstein in his head. That was his passion project that he's wanted to do for a long time.

SPEAKER_07 8:41

Frankenstein and Pinocchio, I think he's mentioned, were his two biggest dreams to make.

Ron 8:46

Well, they did a hell of a job. Yeah. Lighting in the shadows on these characters, it doesn't feel like a traditional stop motion. When you have the lighting on characters' faces in a stop motion film moving as they move, I don't know. It you could get away with not doing that.

SPEAKER_07 9:01

Oh still it being great. There's so many intentional imperfections on the characters. Like Pinocchio only has one ear, and he like there's a bunch of characters that you know, when Geppetto gets up from being drunk, you want to check the ear first on me.

Ron 9:14

Yeah, no, I'm like, I'm looking for a picture of Pinocchio now.

SPEAKER_07 9:18

I believe you, but I'm gonna with Geppetto, like when he is drunk and he comes into the house and and he gets his hangover, he falls over, like you notice him getting up and then slip and falls down again. They didn't have to animate that. That actually probably took another week just to get that movement, potentially. I don't know. A few days at least. Um double check that ear for me.

Ron 9:41

Oh no, he does only have one ear. He's a Frankenstein. You gotta stop layering all this stuff in my head, alright?

SPEAKER_07 9:47

He is. Even when Geppetto makes him, the way that that scene is edited, put together, the lighting with the lightning and everything, it very much gives Frankenstein vibes with how he creates him.

Ron 9:58

Again, I feel like the big dummy because I'm like, yeah, obviously. God, like it's like watching was I watching this film with a blindfold on.

SPEAKER_07 10:05

No, it's I mean, that's that's the beauty of looking into films and looking into story.

Ron 10:08

Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_07 10:09

There's always something to find.

Ron 10:11

Yeah, and there's always something to learn from somebody else. Yeah, yeah. Which is, you know, the point of the podcast. Is there anything you want else you want to touch on for Del Toro?

SPEAKER_07 10:20

What stands out to me about how this film looks and sounds, I think everything feels so tangible. Like I could just reach in and grab them and just, you know, play play with them like action figures. Like they they feel so real, and I think that is because, like I mentioned earlier, they're purposeful imperfections and the lighting, like you mentioned. But also the score is amazing. Uh before we started recording this, I was actually listening to a lot of the songs on loop on my phone, and I I don't normally like musicals, and I wouldn't call this a musical. It's a it's a film that that happens to have musical numbers in it. Yeah, but they're not very long. They're they're not.

Ron 11:07

I don't even know if they're more than two minutes.

SPEAKER_07 11:10

Well, they don't play the full versions in the film. If you go on Spotify and listen to it, they tend to be like 30 seconds a minute longer. Free plug for Spotify.

Ron 11:18

I guess it would also behoove us to mention that this won the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature. It did. So who are we to ask why it's so great? The film opens in World War I era, Italy, as Geppetto lives a quiet life with his son Carlo. There's a point where Geppetto is telling Carlo a story where the character's nose grows when he lies. Is the nose-growing detail something that exists in all versions of the Pinocchio story?

SPEAKER_07 11:45

Yes, and in all of the ones that I've seen and the original story, uh it's in all of them, but to varying degrees. Some of them, like Disney, uh, uses that uh I don't want to call it a gimmick.

Ron 11:57

Well, it's what you remember. You remember that that's the lesson that your parents tell you whenever you're a kid and you're watching it is your nose is growing. That became part of the normal lexicon of it's out there now. If someone said your nose is growing, you would know that they're telling you that you're lying, and it's all because of Pinocchio.

SPEAKER_07 12:13

Pinocchio, yeah. Uh yeah, some stories use it more than others, but it isn't all the ones that I've read and seen.

Ron 12:21

This is a strange one because it's not they they use it at the end, which we will get to. They use it as a way for him to get out of trouble, which is a fascinating thing to think about. But it's not really it's not as prevalent throughout the rest of the movie. It's it's almost as if he stuck little scenes throughout to remind us as if we needed reminded that when Pinocchio lies, it's the house girls.

SPEAKER_07 12:41

Yeah, yeah. And it's it's similar to what I remember of the book, it's very similar in that, where it's not really it's not really emphasized in the book a lot. Like it it it happens throughout, but not as much as you would think.

Ron 12:53

Well, they are finishing a crucifix in a church. We are in the church a few times here in the beginning of the film, and there is a sudden bombing that unfortunately kills Geppetto's son, leaving Geppetto obviously devastated. There is something a little strange here. I'll I'll pause here for a moment because Geppetto doesn't age. Yeah, I did notice that. I did notice that. He's got this young son, and then it's supposed to be many years later whenever he eventually creates his Frankenstein Pinocchio, as we talked about. Anyway, there's not a lot of dialogue in this sequence with the church. He can hear the big storm coming, the bombing, obviously. So, from your perspective as an editor, what stands out to you about how they put this sequence together?

SPEAKER_07 13:35

Yeah, uh it's it's not so much the sequence itself, it's one small detail they add at the end that I really like. And I didn't have to do it this way, but I think it adds so much. When Carlo goes back inside the church to get his pine cone and you see the bomb drop, one, I love how they don't actually show the bomb dropping on the church. Like they they show it coming down, but like it kind of cuts. But the point I love is when Carlo goes in, he's looking up at Christ. And when the bomb hits, you know it hits because you see the enveloping white just like wrap around the crucifix. And what I love about that is they easily could have just cut from the crucifix to Geppetto going boom. What I love about that is it was almost like Carlo was being welcomed into eternity with that with that blinding of enveloping around. And it wasn't just like a fade to white, it was like it grew from behind the crucifix and like almost wrapped him.

Ron 14:28

I didn't notice that. I have to look at that again. The pine cone survives though. It's an animated story, obviously. The pine cone comes flying out of a burning building.

SPEAKER_07 14:36

Yes. And it but it also helps with uh, you know, Pinocchio can't die. Pine cone can't die. That's where he came from.

Ron 14:42

Well, Geppetto buries his son Carlo and he buries a also next to the where his son is buried, he buries a pine cone, which grows into a tree as he sinks deeper and deeper into his grief and isolation. Now that pine cone turning into tree, obviously eventually becoming Pinocchio, which we'll get here in the next section, is intentional. So what do you make of the idea or this theme that he's literally building from his grief and memory of his son Carlo?

SPEAKER_07 15:08

I mean, I think that I mean, automatically that shows the audience that, oh, well, Pinocchio in a lot of ways is Carlo. Or Geppetto at least sees him that way. And you know, because because that that pine cone came from Carlo, Carlo's on the picked it up, and that's all he really has left of him, in a sense, it makes sense that Geppetto is gonna kind of put all his expectations on Pinocchio to be Carlo. Are they fair? No. But also that's exactly why I love Del Toro, is because he takes these um these these monsters, these Frankensteins, and they always mean something deeper. They're never just a monster. They all represent something, they're not just there to be a monster or to be a threat. Like even the good monsters like Pinocchio and arguably Frankenstein, I would argue that Frankenstein is good.

Ron 15:57

Of course, is what you mean.

SPEAKER_07 15:58

He's a he's a monster, but he's a good monster. I don't think he's But it's Frankenstein's monster. Oh, good point. Look at that. Yeah, like the yeah, the monster I think is is good, and Pinocchio's good, but they always have a deeper meaning to them. And I think that's not just Del Toro, that's just mythmaking in general.

Ron 16:14

We get to see our next recognizable character from this story of Pinocchio, an anthropomorphic cricket named Sebastian J. Cricket, which I wonder what that J stands for. He takes up residence in the grown tree that was planted. And can you remind me how many years passed? Was it 20 years? I I can't remember how many. I mean, it the the frickin' pine cone grew into a big ass tree.

SPEAKER_07 16:38

I didn't know how long it takes for a tree to grow like that. I think it's a good one.

Ron 16:43

But anyway, yeah, I'm not sure. Geppetto is in a drunken outburst and he cuts down the pine tree and he carves a wooden puppet resembling a boy. And that night a mystical wood sprite brings the puppet to life, naming him Pinocchio, and assigns Sebastian, Jay Cricket, followed them home because he had declared the pine tree as his home. You're cutting down my home, I live here. And the wood sprite assigns Sebastian to guide the boy who's not yet awoken, in exchange for a future wish, which anytime you're watching any type of film and someone is guaranteed a wish within the first 15 minutes, it will come back in the last 15 minutes. That is a rule to movies. If you it's this it's just the same as if you put a gun on the table, the gun will be used at some point in the film. It's the same rule. You have a wish, you will get to use it, and it will save the day. Spoiler alert for anyone that hasn't seen any movie where they give you a freaking wish at the beginning. The next morning, Pinocchio's chaotic curiosity. He wakes up and just goes absolutely crazy. It almost reminds me of Bambi when Bambi couldn't walk. He has full grasp of the English language, yet he doesn't know what anything is. Yeah. Well, that's magic.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Good morning, Papa!

SPEAKER_06 18:02

What is this? What kind of sorcery?

SPEAKER_04 18:05

You wanted me to live. You asked for me to live.

SPEAKER_06 18:09

Who are you?

SPEAKER_04 18:12

My name is Pinocchio. I'm your son.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

You're not my son. You'll come near me! The boy's telling the truth, Master Geppet. He's full of cockroaches!

Ron 18:24

He has no clue what the hell anything is, and he's just destroying everything. And when he wakes up in this loud, destructive, and curious manner, did that stand out to you in a similar way of how they're introducing this character?

SPEAKER_07 18:35

I mean, yeah, but also like at the same time, it's just a kid being a kid. Imagine a toddler waking up in a five-year-old, six-year-old, seven-year-old's body. This is probably what it would look like. Just running around the house, and they don't know what they're doing. They're just having fun. They're just excited to be alive.

Ron 18:52

Yeah, and he's unpredictable. Geppetto is trying to control him. Once Geppetto figures out what is happening, because he is obviously very confused, and he can't control this Pinocchio. Pinocchio has some agency because there are times in this film where he's like, no, I'm not doing that. It's the opposite of what you would think of a puppet, which is you are controlling the puppet. Pinocchio's always pushing back. He's asking why, and always questions he questions authority quite a few times.

SPEAKER_07 19:17

Well, and that's that's I think that's also why he put it in Fascist Italy, is it's very ironic that the people are more like puppets than Pinocchio is. Pinocchio is more human than people.

Ron 19:26

I think you're spot on there. Do you how do you read the dynamic between Geppetto and Pinocchio this early on when they first meet each other?

SPEAKER_07 19:33

What I love about it is I really like how Geppetto goes from like to confusion to fear to annoyance to anger and then to compassion in the span of like a minute.

Ron 19:43

All in that minute. Using your editor brain from that perspective, they're selling all of that quickly.

SPEAKER_07 19:49

Yeah.

Ron 19:50

So and you're right, it's grief, comedy, it's all these things. So what stood out to you then about the pacing and the rhythm of how this how they put this scene together from an editing perspective, once Pinocchio does come alive?

SPEAKER_07 20:02

I did it in a musical number, which I thought was a really cool way to do it, especially a musical number that is constantly going like this. It's it's it's it's shifting along with Geppetto's mood. I mean, what what I noticed about it is I love when when objects hit on the beat of a song, you know, when the knives are coming down, they hit on the beat and stuff like that. Like that that's the stuff that I pay attention to. I guess it doesn't really have much to do with the emotion, but that's what I noticed.

Ron 20:26

No, I'm asking about how they are getting it across through the editing process. Yeah, does that make sense how I'm wording that?

SPEAKER_07 20:34

No, no, it it makes sense. I don't I mean, obviously, editing has a lot to do with it.

Ron 20:38

No, but I think you're onto something with the actions happening in waves. It's not just high energy all the time. They're going from high to low energy to singing to showing Pinocchio can't control himself, Geppetto is like just completely confused, Sebastian. Then they're cutting to Sebastian J. Cricket, he's trying to help and figure out what the hell's going on.

SPEAKER_07 20:57

Yep.

Ron 20:57

So they're they're showing you a lot in a little in a little bit of time, a little amount of time.

SPEAKER_07 21:01

And that says a lot about the music too, and just how they composed that. An interesting fact about the music is they used, I believe, only woodwin instruments because Pinocchio is made of wood.

Ron 21:11

Yes. I would you didn't have to yes, you'd don't may explain that shit to me. No, I was th I was trying to think of the music. I know I had the face of please explain this to me, but I was trying to think of the music and try to figure out if I could remember anything, but I can't, so I'll have to go back to it.

SPEAKER_07 21:27

Listen to it on Spotify, another plug.

Ron 21:28

Another plug for Spotify. Listen to it on Apple Music. Eventually, everything calms down, and Geppetto is going to attempt to integrate Pinocchio into society. Which watching it it's so funny because it's a wooden boy. Let's integrate him into society. It's uh ridiculous. Things begin to spiral. Pinocchio follows Geppetto to church, and rightfully so, he frightens the the people that are attending church. So this is our second scene at the church. He's later sent to school. But his first public appearance happens in church. Does that shape the way that the town sees him? I imagine what it would be like if he showed up walking down the street might be a different reaction than if he shows up as a wooden boy in a church, because that I'm asking a question and I just kept talking. Because, in a sense, that would be considered a miracle.

SPEAKER_07 22:13

Yeah, in a sense. And you would think so. We can get to some of the religious connections that Del Toro was purposely making. But also with that, I think the idea of him even coming, like being introduced to that in a church. This is set back in the early nineteen hundreds. A lot of people in that time were religious. So, like, I mean, you're a lot of these people from this town that are at that church, it's probably most of the town, or a lot of it at least. And when you're in that scenario, it's either, oh, it's a miracle or there's a demon. Like, there's only there's only two ways that this can go.

Ron 22:47

There's not and obviously the third option of a wood sprite showing up and granting a wish to a cricket. They probably say that's a demon.

SPEAKER_07 22:55

But also, Del Toro, and you're gonna see this later in the film, he purposely made Pinocchio a Christ-like figure.

Ron 23:02

You know, oh yeah, they have him on a cross at the end of the film and about two.

SPEAKER_07 23:05

Well, there's more yes, there's more than that, but like Jesus wasn't accepted by his own people. Pinocchio's not accepted by these people. You'll continually see it throughout the film. Geppetto does send Pinocchio to school.

Ron 23:15

Yes. This is the first hint that we get that he is looking to turn him into Carlo. Yeah. Where he really is treating him as if he is his son. He's trying to turn him into Carlo. I guess I should send him to school. I don't know. I assume Pinocchio doesn't have a brain. I don't know. Can Pinocchio get smarter if he doesn't have a brain? But along the way to school, he begins to navigate truth and identity because he this is when he tells his lie. Actually, that's not true. He's not on his way to school.

SPEAKER_07 23:44

He still says he's a real boy in the church.

Ron 23:49

Yes. Thank you very much. Rewind. While he's still in the church, his nose grows when he lies. But he didn't intend to lie because he says he's a real boy. Someone questions that he's a puppet or made of wood. I'm not sure what the line is, but he says he's a real boy and his nose grows. Now, he doesn't seem to be lying intentionally. So this is more of a philosophical question, because this is the direction I love to go.

SPEAKER_07 24:13

Yes.

Ron 24:13

Is it really a lie if he doesn't know it's a lie? Or is he just trying to understand what he is?

SPEAKER_07 24:20

I mean, everyone's going to have a different response to that. But I think that you can you can say something and truly believe it, and it's still a lie. So I think that's what's happening in this moment is Pinocchio, he thinks that he's a real boy. Like he doesn't, he doesn't know enough. He's been alive for what, 10 minutes?

Ron 24:36

Right, but that's what I'm asking. If he doesn't know, then how is it a lie?

SPEAKER_07 24:39

How is it a lie? I mean, I think something something can still be untrue, but you can still believe it. I mean, there's plenty of things throughout the world people believe are true that aren't, or people believe that aren't true that actually are.

Ron 24:53

Right, but a lie would be knowing it's not true and then saying the opposite. Like say knowing something as a fact and then not and then saying the opposite. You think whereas Pino Yeah. That's the definition of a lie, isn't it? Whereas Pinocchio doesn't know he's not a real boy. You're right.

SPEAKER_07 25:08

He doesn't know that he's not a real boy.

Ron 25:10

Well, maybe well, if he we're going down the way too down the rabbit hole. This will go way too. If he knows he's a wooden puppet, and he says, I'm a real boy, that's a lie. And his nose would grow. Yeah. I guess the question is the real question, does he know he's a puppet? Because when he says he's a real boy, his nose grows as if he lied. I don't think he does know he's a puppet. Then why does his nose grow? Because he's not a real boy. Because at the end of the still key one goes back and forth. At the end of the film, he's saying things that he know he knows they're not true. And he gets his nose to grow to get out of the sea monsters. Right. So that's still lying, even though he knows it's not true. But in this case, he doesn't know and his nose still grows.

SPEAKER_07 25:51

Right. So you can lie whether you know what you're saying or you don't know what you're saying. I mean, it comes down to do you believe there's absolute truth and absolute lie? I mean, that that's ultimately what it comes down to.

Ron 26:01

It seems like the more we talk about it, the answer that I have in my mind is yes, but it seems like the answer you have in your mind is no. Yes. I'm just thinking of the innocence of the character.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Yeah.

Ron 26:12

Where he is this monster that was brought to life and he's given the gift of language and mobility, but he doesn't, he's not gifted the knowledge or self-awareness. He's constantly questioning everything. So when he says, I'm a real boy, and his nose grows, he seems just as surprised as everybody else. Which is a very fascinating way to tell the story because that shows that if you say it's not, it's not we were told from the earlier story, if you lie, this is what happens to you. But in this case, it's not necessarily a lie. It's if you tell if you say something that's not true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 26:51

Which which could be argued it's a lie. Which could be argued it's a lie.

Ron 26:55

Yeah. Which goes back to the original argument of is it a lie if you don't know the truth? I mean, he's not making up a story, he truly believes it. Which I think gives a different spin to the story. Is that lying without intent makes it a little more interesting.

SPEAKER_07 27:10

Absolutely.

Ron 27:11

I don't know. Maybe that's like diving way into the deep end, but it changes the way you might look at the character.

SPEAKER_07 27:19

I think all good stories do this. It makes you think deeper about these questions, and I think it's great to explore it.

Ron 27:25

Finally, Pinocchio is on his way to school. He's intercepted on his way to school by Count Volpe, who is voiced by Christoph Waltz. Yes. A manipulative showman.

SPEAKER_06 27:35

Ah, we have found him! Look, Spatadura! How a miracle! How a situation! How is it star Who? Me? Yes, mon étoile. I am Count Volpe. You have been chosen. Come partake in the fantastic, carefree carnival life as the star of my puppet show!

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Don't listen to him, Pinocchio! You promised your papa you would go to school.

SPEAKER_04 28:03

Oh yeah! I promised my papa I'd go to school. See? He gave me Carlos book.

SPEAKER_05 28:10

Carlos book? Yes. A classical canonical work. I can see you're intrinsically an intellectual. But now book learning cannot compare to witnessing the wide world with one's own eyes from atop the glorious stage.

Ron 28:29

And of course, his abused monkey performer, Spazzatura, who is by Kate Glanchette. Yeah, but what does she say? Does she just sit there and make monkey?

SPEAKER_07 28:40

The story of how she got brought onto the movie is they were filming Nightmare Alley. She heard that Del Toro was doing Pinocchio, and she's like, I you know, I just want to work with him again. I want to um yeah, I just want to work with it on his next project. She's like, I will take any role. And Del Toro, uh, from what I remember, he laughed and he was like, Well, all I have left is a monkey. And they showed it to her, and she's like, This is literally my spirit animal. So all she's doing is just making noises, and I think even Del Toro's laugh is in there somewhere.

Ron 29:08

Yeah, I saw her name in the in the credits, obviously, and I thought, well, I didn't hear her because she has a very recognizable voice, but she doesn't say anything. I failed to mention that the that Sebastian J. Cricket is voiced by Ewan McGregor, also an incredibly recognizable voice. And Geppetto, voiced by David Bradley. And if you've of course, if you're big Harry Potter fans, you would know who David Bradley is. Ron Perlman voices Podesta, and he'll come back. He was in the church. We did not mention him earlier. He is in the church with his son Candlewick. Is that his son? Is that his son's name? Yeah, Candlewick. Quite the we got Pine Nut and Candlewick. Candlewick voiced by Finn Wolfheart. Yes. Of Stranger Things Fame. Stranger Things Fame, yep. So quite the cast of characters and the Wood Sprite voiced by Tilda Swinton.

SPEAKER_07 29:56

So an incredible. Well, both both life and death is voiced by her.

Ron 30:00

Yes. Add that to the mix. Count Volpe's introduction is choreographed to the music. And you mentioned this earlier, whenever Pinocchio's movements were choreographed to music, because every gesture that he makes is locked into the beat. What are some challenges with that animation style and getting that to sync up that the way that it does? I imagine it's quite difficult.

SPEAKER_07 30:18

Yeah. I mean, you think about a film like Baby Driver, where there's entire sequences that are the cast is listening to the song as they're doing it.

Ron 30:27

It's almost like the whole film of Baby Driver.

SPEAKER_07 30:29

Basically, basically. I think it would be a little bit easier because you can stop mid-performance, make sure you're getting it on beat, and this then resume. Um so I would imagine that it would be easier in in this sense.

Ron 30:42

Pinocchio is lured away from school. He doesn't even make it in the building. He was lured away by that attention and excitement that Volpe and Spatatura is uh throwing his way, and he joins the traveling circus, becomes an instant attraction. So he went from, in the span of, I don't know, 20 minutes, he went from being feared in church to being cheered in the circus. What kind of attention does that do to anyone, whether you're made of flesh and bone or a pine tree? It's a silly question, maybe.

SPEAKER_07 31:10

I mean, naturally, you you're gonna have uh a positive connection to wherever you're accepted. Pinocchio, he doesn't seem to mind because he's not really paying attention. He doesn't seem to care what people think about him at this point. Um, and I think that's kind of the beauty of kids. Like most of them don't really care how you see them. They're just they're just being them. Now, if this was an adult, I think that there would be a lot more of a uh negative connection to, in this case, the church, and then positive connection to the circus. But Pinocchio definitely feels the positive connection to the circus and wants to be around it more because people are paying attention to him.

Ron 31:43

Geppetto is searching for him, obviously, looking for him. He finds there's some good, there's some nice comedic moments here with Ewan McGregor's character of the cricket when he's getting smashed under all these different things.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah.

Ron 31:54

Geppetto is searching for Pinocchio leads to a confrontation with Count Volpe that ends in chaos because Pinocchio is thrown into the road and run over by a car and killed.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

And dies.

Ron 32:05

Yeah. The crowd, though, when he's back at the circus and he's lying, the crowd is cheering him on when his nose is growing. The thing that's it's supposed to expose dishonesty or maybe lack of knowing the truth. And that's becoming part of the act. So what does that posit you talked about positive reinforcement. What does that then do to him?

SPEAKER_07 32:24

I mean, he sees it as as a as a good thing. Like he's gonna do it more because he's getting positive uh positive attention, and kids just want attention whether what they're doing is good or bad. Um, and if you get attention for it, they're gonna say it more.

Ron 32:37

The wooden boy dies after he's be hit by a car. And he awakens in the afterlife where he meets Death, who is the sister of the wood sprite. I took it.

SPEAKER_07 32:46

Sister of life, yeah.

Ron 32:47

The afterlife seems pretty chill. The rabbits are playing cards, Death's just hanging out explaining the rules. Pinocchio is just waiting for the hourglass time to run out.

SPEAKER_04 32:56

I am Pinocchio. I'm a boy, and I think I'm dead.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Ah yes, I see. The wooden boy with a borrowed soul. My sister's folly. The sentimental fool. She gave you life, Pinocchio, when you were not supposed to have it. No more than a chair or a table should. As a result, you cannot truly, truly die.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Oh boy, oh boy, and and that's good, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Well, it means that you are not, nor will you ever be, a real boy like Carlo. The one thing that makes human life precious and meaningful, you see, is how brief it is.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

Oh.

Ron 33:52

Is Del Toro shining through here with the way that he depicts death being routine?

SPEAKER_07 33:58

Yeah, I think I think it's two things. I mean, one, I think putting someone as naive as Pinocchio in in um in the literal space of death, it's naturally funny because he does it like he has no conception of what death is. Like he not yet, he doesn't. So he's just acting like it's another day. And that's naturally funny. But also, uh, Del Toro uses a lot of his Catholic roots in this film, but he also uses some of Mexico's beliefs too. And from what I've I've heard in the interviews, I don't know if it's that they celebrate death, but they normally sing songs about death to kind of normalize to take away the fear, fear of it. So I think that's also what is influencing this scene. So it's kind of a combination of those two things. But mostly I think it's, you know, Pinocchio just he has no idea what death is or the severity of the situation.

Ron 34:46

She explains that he can't truly die, and of course, he's okay. Like you're saying, he doesn't understand anyway. There is a waiting period that's marked by an hourglass, and every time he dies, that time he has to wait to come back is lengthened with each death. So Pinocchio knows he can come back to life. He doesn't understand what death means to people who can't. This seems like a stupid question because uh answer is obviously yes, but does that limit how he understands Geppetto's grief about Carlo? I guess the better question would be how does that limit how he understands Geppetto's grief about Carlo? Because Geppetto's Pinocchio is a surrogate, he's not a replacement.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yeah.

Ron 35:21

Carlo can never be replaced. But Pinocchio does not understand that grief that Geppetto is carrying with him.

SPEAKER_07 35:28

Yeah, I mean, Pinocchio doesn't understand that grief, but he but Geppetto he's trying to put Carlo's expectations, what he expects of Carlo, what he wants. He wants Carlo back, so he's putting all of his expectations on Pinocchio to be Carlo. But also at the same time, Pinocchio has I don't think he's really developed empathy yet.

Ron 35:45

No. All right, you know who I think gets absolutely mistreated this entire film until the very is is Sebastian J. Cricket.

SPEAKER_07 35:52

Yes, he does. And in the original Pinocchio story, Pinocchio kills him at the very beginning.

Ron 35:56

What?

SPEAKER_07 35:56

Yeah.

Ron 35:57

Wait, he's he doesn't feature in the whole story?

SPEAKER_07 35:59

Well, he comes back as a as a ghost cricket. Oh my god. So him constantly getting smushed is kind of like calling back to that.

Ron 36:07

Oh, that's funny. That's really interesting, actually. So Pinocchio finally wakes up, he's back in the living world, and his choice is to return to the circus because he wants to earn money for Geppetto. There's a there's a point here where Geppetto says he's a bur asks what is a burden. Okay, well, he feels terrible. It's it's it's actually kind of heartbreaking because he's trying to be useful.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Yeah.

Ron 36:29

Is he trying to be selfless with leaving and trying to make money to send back to Geppetto? Or is he is this just the storyteller's showing us yet again how this is just an innocent child who just has no frame of reference and does not know any better?

SPEAKER_07 36:42

I think that I mean, honestly, I think it is him trying to be selfless. I really do. I you know, I I mean any I don't think you really need to teach kids to always be selfless. I think uh a lot of the times they naturally are. Um and in in this scenario, like I I think he's trying to be useful for for Geppetto, but also he is an innocent child where he doesn't know where he's going, he's being taken advantage of.

Ron 37:07

Yeah, well, if only he had Sebastian J. Cricket to help him. True. Perhaps that'd go a little differently. Yeah. So he's performing across Italy, and Volpe is exploiting him with all his earnings that we've established. And here comes our our good buddy. Well, I shouldn't say that, Benito Mussolini, who they have depicted as being this short, fat, cartoonish leader. Yeah. And Pinocchio rebels. He turns this patriotic song into a parody about farts and poop.

SPEAKER_06 37:36

Oh, your excellency. I wrote this number just for you. I like a puppet.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yes, hoop your activity.

Ron 38:16

Volpe is really counting on Pinocchio here because Pinocchio is nothing but a tool for Volpe to earn money. The root of all evil, some may say. Mussolini's looking at Pinocchio as this major attraction that could feed the propaganda machine. Is he has he been treated well by anybody to this point in the story?

SPEAKER_07 38:36

I would argue the only two I can't even really call them people, life and and Sebastian J. Cricket, I think, are the only people that have really been treating him well. And it's very ironic that neither of them are people.

Ron 38:47

Yeah, but but the cricket has a different motive. So Volpe is money, Mussolini is propaganda, and Cricket's motive is I just want my wish.

SPEAKER_07 38:56

Yeah, but I think he actually cares. I think he cares more than the people do at the very least.

Ron 39:01

Candlewick sets his feet on fire. Yeah. Podesta thinks he's I don't even know what Podesta's thinking. Geppetto is confused and lost and grieving.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yeah.

Ron 39:10

Pinocchio has come across all these different people so far, and we're well over halfway through the film.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Mm-hmm.

Ron 39:16

And he feels alone somehow. He will make good friends with Spazzatura though. Yes. He will because he will stand up for Spazzatura here soon. That Mussolini scene is ridiculous. I mean, it's it's poop and fart jokes.

SPEAKER_07 39:29

It really is. But it also but it also shows that it's another reason why I think he put it in fascist Italy. I think he's showing that like these types of regimes, they shouldn't be obeyed. And in a way, disobedience is a virtue when it comes to situations like this. And I think that's what's so cool about putting Pinocchio in it, is he's not afraid to stand up to these dictators. Where the people would be. He's executed on the spot.

Ron 39:55

Yeah. Solehini's to kill him, and he's he's assassinated on the spot. So he dies again. So he's been hit guy by a car and shot. He's revived. He obviously has to wait a slightly bit longer of a wait with the hourglass because he's been killed again. And he's taken to a military camp for boys. And at that camp, he then comes across Candlwick again, voiced by Phil Finn Wolfard, the Podesta's son, voiced by Ron Perlman. And Candlwick struggles under his father's expectations. They make that abundantly clear. Candlick's a real boy. He's trapped by a father's idea of what he should be. Does that make him a mirror to Pinocchio?

SPEAKER_07 40:35

Yes, absolutely. I think he is Pinocchio if Geppetto was an abusive and arrogant father. Like they're mirrors. They're absolutely mirrors.

Ron 40:44

The boys are pushed, yeah. The boys are being pushed toward violence. I mean, I know it's a it's a fun game of paintball. They're they're training, but it's also I mean, the game ends, and Podesta hands his son a gun and says to shoot him, to shoot him.

SPEAKER_07 40:58

Yeah, shoot the puppet.

Ron 41:00

So the boys are pushed toward this violence, and Candlwick then questions authority, which as we already know, Pinocchio has absolutely no fear to do that, be it be it Volpe, be it Mussolini, be it Podesta, be it Geppetto. He does not see authority in the way that maybe most others do. Pinocchio gets called out for being disobedient, but it helps Candlick stand up to his father. Tough question, maybe. Is the film starting to redefine disobedience as a virtue? Yes and no.

SPEAKER_07 41:29

Um I think it's just showing in scenarios like this, when when you're you're trapped in a fascist uh country regime, I think disobedience to those who are abusing power, I think disobedience to those who are abusing power that they are given, I think that is a virtue in that sense. I think that people that are are abusing the power that they're given to have their own selfish gain, to do evil, you know, you think about Hitler and Nazi Germany. No, he like he need he needed to be disobeyed. That absolutely was the right decision. And I think it's no different here with Mussolini. They're both fascists. And, you know, can't uh Kendallwick's father is an extended arm of Mussolini.

Ron 42:09

Yeah, and he is an asshole. And I think sometimes when someone is an asshole openly and is asking you to do things like shoot your friend, kill your friend. There should not be a tie in games. Yeah, I think like we don't need to go down this rabbit hole, but like Pinocchio doesn't know what school is or maybe how to read, but for some reason knows he has a feel for morality, which is really interesting to me. It is of like Del Toro making the argument that being moral is a virtue you are born with and not necessarily something that you can learn. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe that maybe that's a topic for another day. Another bombing destroys the camp and kills Podesta, scatters survivors. Padocchio goes flying because God knows he probably weighs 30 pounds. He does escape. Volpe reappears. Yes, he does. Which, by the way, that character, what a face.

SPEAKER_07 43:02

The hair, the nose. And the reason they make him look like that is in the original story, he's a fox. Now, in this story, they're blending the fox with the devil. Very much supposed to with those like pointy things. Like they want him to look like a mix between the fox and the devil.

Ron 43:17

There was a scene a while back that I skipped over, and that was whenever Pinocchio stood up for Spotsatura. Yes. Spots Toro was being abused, and Pinocchio stepped in and stood up for him. The payoff of that is coming now. Yeah. Because Volpe captures Pinocchio. They have him up on a cross.

SPEAKER_07 43:37

A cross.

Ron 43:38

Would you like to would you like to talk about that?

SPEAKER_07 43:40

I mean, I mean, it's I mean, yeah, I mean it's it's just another callback to Jesus like imagery that Pinocchio is also Pinocchio is made of wood and the crucifix is made of wood. I mean you know Volpe means in Italian. I'm Italian, so I should know that, but no, I don't.

Ron 43:56

It means fox.

SPEAKER_07 43:58

My word. Of course it does. Of course it does. Why wouldn't it? Why wouldn't it? So much sense.

Ron 44:03

Lordy. Anyway. What happens to Pinocchio if he burns? Like we've seen him hit by a car. Yeah. And then we've seen him.

SPEAKER_07 44:10

I thought about that. Does he just cease to exist? Because I mean he burns his he b he burns his feet. And that happens in the book as well, where his his feet get burnt off and Geppetto needs to make him uh new feet. But yeah, I thought about that when I was watching it. I'm just like, he that's like the surefire way to sure fire. That's funny.

Ron 44:26

Surefire way to kill him. Good God. Dad jokes. Yeah. Because Pinocchio stepped in and defended Spazzatura. Spazzatura means garbage. Are you serious? Spazzatura in Italian means garbage. Oh my word. It's all making sense, honestly. And we see how Spazzatura is treated. Yeah. Pinocchio, pine nut, steps in to save garbage. Pinocchio steps in for Spazzatura and defends. So now here we have Pinocchio about to be burned at the stake, and Spazzatura turns on the master of Count Volpe, leading to Volpe's death. The part of this scene that I actually laughed out loud, the crunching noise when Volpe hits that rock.

SPEAKER_07 45:06

I know, because you're not expecting to see that.

Ron 45:08

Just a crunch that he hits that rock and dies.

SPEAKER_07 45:10

Yeah, it's such a brutal death, but it's it's also like since you don't expect it in this type of movie, it's it's funny.

Ron 45:16

In the original, in the in the book that you read, are they swallowed by a whale?

SPEAKER_07 45:20

Yes.

Ron 45:21

Okay, because in this in this version, Pinocchio and Spatsatura are swallowed by a giant sea creature, which it's like Tolturo couldn't help himself by making this a giant sea creature and not a blue whale or something.

SPEAKER_07 45:34

No, I I don't I in the original book I don't know if it was a whale. It was a sea creature.

Ron 45:38

I don't know if it was a whale or well Pinocchio and Spazzatura are swallowed by a giant sea creature here, and they reunite with Geppetto and Sebastian, who were swallowed by the Geppetto and Sebastian were also swallowed by this sea creature. And the whole time I was distracted. This entire last 20 minutes of the film, I was so distracted because I couldn't help but I kept staring at the water.

SPEAKER_07 45:58

Yeah.

Ron 45:59

And how they're animating this water. Yeah. It looks unbelievable.

SPEAKER_07 46:02

It looks good.

Ron 46:03

Is this CG?

SPEAKER_07 46:04

Are they mixing CG with CG with practical? If a character's limb touches the water, they'll animate water droplets on the on the limbs to make it like kind of blend well. But the rest, to my knowledge, is CG. It looks amazing.

Ron 46:20

It looks like stop motion water. It looks amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It looks great. I'm not going to go down this path again of Pinocchio lying on purpose. They use Pinocchio's power. I guess we can call it a power.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Yeah.

Ron 46:32

Because he uses it for good. His growing nose, he starts telling lies or untruths, if we want to put it in that way, to grow his nose long enough that they can escape through the blowhole of this creature. It sounds so funny to read things like this. Yeah. Because or to recap things like this, because it sounds ridiculous if you're not watching it. Pinocchio ultimately he sacrifices himself. He detonates a naval mine to save everybody and kill the sea creature. In the afterlife, he chooses, I will give up my immortality to return immediately because Geppetto needs to be rescued. So his choice here, he's he makes a cognizant choice that he's giving up his immortality for Geppetto. Is this the moment he now understands what Geppetto lost with Carlo because he's afraid he's going to lose Geppetto?

SPEAKER_07 47:24

Yeah, I mean I yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. And another very interesting part of this scene that I did not notice until later when he wakes up on the beach is he loses the same arm that the crucifix loses. Oh that's interesting. So Del Toro's not he's not trying to hide the connection. It's it very much Jesus beha die on behalf of others, Pinocchio die on behalf of others, him giving up his immortality, Jesus coming to earth and becoming human. Like it it's just keeps on getting heaped on. And then he loses the same arm.

Ron 47:54

Well, and he's gonna be resurrected.

SPEAKER_07 47:56

And then he gets exact exactly. Exactly. Because it just keeps gone.

Ron 47:59

Because they he does come back and end up saving Geppetto, but then when he dies, he the immortality is gone and he is gone for good. But of course, remember at the beginning of the film, someone's given a wish, lest we forget when someone's given a wish. It must be used. Those are the rules. Always comes back. And Sebastian uses his long promised wish to bring Pinocchio back. In the end, Pinocchio lives on. Eventually, he outlives Geppetto, Sebastian, Spatsatura, and he sets off in the world alone. My wife did not sit and watch the film with me, but she did come in at the end, and the line, what happens, happens, and then we are gone. That that hit us both pretty hard, actually.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

That was hard. Will he eventually die? I think so. And maybe that makes him a real boy. What happens happens.

Ron 48:53

And then we are gone. The ending leaves Pinocchio outliving everyone he loves and walking off in a world alone. Yeah. And then and then you add in that line of what happens, happens, and then we're gone. What do you take from that finale?

SPEAKER_07 49:12

I mean, I don't it takes a lot for me to get emotional during movies, and out of all the times I've seen it, that the ending still hits me every single time because it's so bittersweet. And what Sebastian J. Cricket says, what happens, happens, and then we're gone. It's true. And there's nothing we can really do about that. But I think what Del Toro's saying through this is, I mean, he said this film is about imperfect sons and imperfect fathers, but also ultimately the film is about forgiveness. He even mentioned with his own father, um, you know, you see the father and son dynamic a lot in his films because he likes to touch on that. Um, his father died before he could see Pinocchio. Uh I think the last film he saw was Shape of Water. Del Toro mentioned how he was able to forgive his father and they were able to reconcile. And that's what this film's about. And I think honestly, what Crookett's saying through that is make sure you're using this time that you're given, this little time that you're given. One, make the most of it, but also reconcile yourself with others, forgive others. I'm an imperfect son, I have an imperfect dad. Gonna be an imperfect dad whenever I do have a son, and it's just important that we that we forgive each other.

Ron 50:22

So we've talked about grief, immortality, disobedience, forgiveness, Del Toro's craft. If you had to make the strongest case for why this film belongs in the Criterion Collection, what is it? Why Pinocchio?

SPEAKER_07 50:34

I mean, there's so many things that I could mention about the intentionality of every shot, just practically how they had to make it, or the music. But ultimately, I think when you have a character that is 150 years old, and there's been over 30 feature film adaptations of the character, I think the fact that Del Toro was able to craft a version of the story that felt wholly original and to his style, but still respected the source material of an almost 150-year-old character is more than enough to earn its place in the Criterion Collection. I think it's a perfectly imperfect film.

Ron 51:08

Thank you again to Caleb Tyson for taking the time to speak with me about Pinocchio. If you'd like to support the show for as little as $3 a month, you can do so by selecting the support the show link in the episode description. You can follow the podcast on Instagram for updates and subscribe on YouTube for full video versions of each episode. Those links are also in the description below. Next time, I'll be joined by Garesh Jambu to discuss La Serumoni. Thanks again for listening. Please be sure to follow, share, and keep an eye out for the next episode.