Deep Cover (1992, Bill Duke) with Michael B. Gillespie - Criterion Collection Spine #1086

"There was a great moment in the 90s with noir films, and I think Deep Cover should always be a part of that consideration."

In this episode of Why This Film?, I'm joined by film scholar Michael B. Gillespie to explore Deep Cover, Bill Duke's 1992 noir thriller.

Deep Cover follows Russell Stevens, a Cincinnati police officer recruited by the DEA to go undercover at "John Hull" and infiltrate the West Coast's largest cocaine supply chain. As Stevens climbs the ladder, the line between cop and the character he's playing starts to disappear.

Michael B. Gillespie is an Associate Professor in the Department of Cinema Studies at NYU and the author of Film Blackness: American Cinema and the Idea of Black Film, which examines Deep Cover as a defining case study. His writing has appeared in Film Comment, Film Quarterly, and The Criterion Collection. He served as consulting producer on the Criterion release of Deep Cover, where he also wrote the accompanying essay. There's no one better suited to help unpack why this film is included in the collection.

Together we move through the film and discuss:

• Why "neo-noir" fails to describe Deep Cover
• The police department weaponizing trauma as recruitment
• Jeff Goldblum's and Larry Fishburne's interracial coupling

Whether you're discovering Deep Cover for the first time or returning to it, this conversation explores why a film about a man forced to play a role became one of the defining noirs of its era, and why it still matters today.

Michael B. Gillespie

Who'll Pay Reparations on My Soul?

Film Blackness: American Cinema and the Idea of Black Film

Hollywood ManeStays - Not a pin, not a clip. Just Better.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:25

The second time is the charm!

SPEAKER_09 0:28

The second time brings him back! Brings him back to the fold! He remembers who he is!

Ron 0:33

Hello everybody, my name is Ron and welcome to Why This Film, a podcast where we explore the artistry, cultural impact, and legacy of movies in the Criterion Collection. Each episode I sit down with experts in Cinefiles to ask, why was this film chosen for the collection? And why is it still matter today? In this episode, we're heading to the early 1990s Los Angeles into the neon and shadow of the war on drugs with Deep Cover, the 1992 film from director Bill Duke. Deep Cover follows Russell Stevens, a Cincinnati police officer recruited to go undercover as John Hall, and infiltrate the West Coast's largest cocaine supply chain. As Stevens climbs the ladder, the line between the cop and the character he's playing starts to disappear, and the film asks what's left of a man once everyone around him needs him to keep playing a role that was never safe to play in the first place. My guest today is Michael B. Gillespie. He is an associate professor in the Department of Cinema Studies at NYU. He is the author of Film Blackness, American Cinema, and the idea of black film. His writing has appeared in Film Comet, Film Quarterly, and the Criterion Collection, among others. And he served as the consulting producer on the Criterion release of Deep Cover. He wrote the Criterion essay that accompanies the film, and there's no one better suited to help me dig into this film. And with that, here's my conversation with Michael B. Gillespie. I've been dying to ask you this question. Actually, there's quite a few I have here. But the first question I've- Okay, all right. I might have answers. I might have answers. This one, this one I'm very confident you can answer this. You were the consulting producer on the release of Deep Cover. What does that job involve?

SPEAKER_11 2:10

So I have been a consulting producer on three releases. Deep cover was the first. That was with Issa Club. The second was the Shaft release, and that was with Kim Hendrickson. And then the third was Colleen Smith's Dry Longso, and that was with Abby. It essentially is about you were brought in as someone to be in conversation with the conception of the project. That can very well take different forms. On each project, I did a different kind of work. For the sake of deep cover, I mean, I knew Issa Club because he was friends with one of my best friends on a local football team called The Wanderers. It was good to like meet up with Issa and talk about things. I mean, Issa was not, I don't remember him being very familiar with Deep Cover at first. And so we began to think about what is the bread and butter really of Criterion of a particular kind of curation of the object, which is about being attentive to the supplements. In my mind, in my heart of hearts, in my full-on fucking devotion for this film, I wanted a conversation between Jeff Goldblum and Lawrence Fishburne. I wanted them to be able to look back and kind of, you know, be kind of shocked and amazed about what I thought of as a particular kind of radicality in terms of an interracial buddy film of its day. Lawrence Fishburn was immediately on board. But we were getting nothing from Jeff Goldblum. And it wasn't until much later that in the midst of of a post-COVID and the if we're going to believe that COVID is even over now, we found out that Jeff Goldblum was stuck in Europe. So that's why we were having trouble getting in contact with him. And so when he finally did commit to saying yes, and then we reached back to Lawrence Fishburne, he was no longer available. So that was kind of heartbreaking. But what became really wonderful out of that was I was always interested in the short film that Bill Duke did that won a Student Academy Award when he was at the AFI. So I got in touch with the American Film Institute and they sent us a link to the film. There was a guy at AFI who was like, you might be interested in this too. And it was the conversation that Elvis Mitchell had with Bill Duke and Lawrence Fishburn. And even though it was a little bit heartbreaking for me that we could not have the Lawrence Fishburne-Joff Goldblum conversation, it was just incredible that we at least had this. So that was a that was one thing in terms of the consulting producing. The other thing I felt was really important about Deep Cover was that this features the debut of Snoop Dogg on the song 187. It is the first song that Dr. Dre does after leaving NWA. This is the song that is the prelude to what is later the Chronic that comes at the end of the year and really significantly reshapes the landscape of hip-hop. I felt like you we have to have a conversation, and thankfully we got Oliver Wang and Claudrina Harold to do that. And then I felt like I want to talk about this film with someone, and uh Raquel Gates is outstanding and she's a dear friend. Yeah, she's great. She's she's a dear friend, and uh and I felt like that we had enough. Isa definitely felt that, and it was great to work with Issa throughout at every step. So even in spite of the fact that it wasn't a dream that I had, the release became a really nice manifestation. And I think what immediately became surprising about the release is how many people had not known the film. This was a film that was that was so that I thought everyone knew, you know. And and I think that was a part of what's really wonderful about Criterion's envisioning of the releases is that they're not really exclusively trying to satisfy an establish audience, but to build new audiences for whatever object comes down at hike.

Ron 6:18

As you were going through all that work, how did your view of the film change? I'm assuming it changed.

SPEAKER_11 6:23

It changed because I guess another interesting part of the supplements that Issa and I built was the actual conversation with Bill Duke. I did not, I and as a part of my own research and conversations with Issa, it became clear that it was important to talk about how important Bill Duke was in terms of his television work, that he had done such extensive work and the way that many black directors in a post-70s black exploitation moment were able to continue to work, especially people like Michael Schultz. So having that conversation with Bill Duke after doing some research and discovering a lot of shows that he did that I had never heard of, that was quite nice. I suppose I'd been so fixated on the film that in working on the project, I learned to appreciate even more how important Bill Duke is to any kind of conversation about American film and American television, but also in terms of the idea of black film engine.

Ron 7:20

I appreciate his story. I think it was Dallas. He was a director on an episode of Dallas. He tells a story of how he pulls up and has to explain in one way or another that he is the director of the episode. And he should be allowed into the it's like yeah, yeah. I feel like I've heard that. I can totally see that scene.

SPEAKER_11 7:36

I can totally see it. Or or him when he's walking, they're shooting the fucking killing floor, right? And they're walking in the streets of Chicago, and Harold Washington is just one. He's just become mayor of Chicago, and him getting kind of caught up in a party around that. It's like, oh my god, why has Bill Duke never told this story before? If you live long enough, you have stories, and I'm really glad that we were able to get some of those from from Mr.

Ron 8:02

Duke. Let's let's talk about Bill Duke for a second. He he performed in Miri Baraka's Slave Ship off Broadway. He played a black nationalist in Car Wash, and then he directed a Rage in Harlem right before this in '91. Do you see that history show up in deep cover? Like, do you see those influences and that work show up in any way in deep cover movies?

SPEAKER_11 8:24

I think the easiest way of answering that would be to say that uh Bill Duke came up in a climate in which they were very rich and complex conceptions around the art of blackness. I think Bill Duke kind of came up on stage, particularly recognizing that sometimes what's really kind of vital and most enriching is to have black characters that are deeply complicated, if not ambivalent. When I think about some of the roles that you mentioned, these are not very easy roles that can be parsed out in terms of strictly positive and negative. There is some really stirring and upsetting and wonderful things about these characters. And so I think that came to bear uh in what I think of as one of Lawrence Fishburne's best roles.

Ron 9:14

Yeah, he is credited as Larry Fishburne. That's easy to catch right in the beginning in the opening credits. You're like, wait, Larry Fishburn?

SPEAKER_11 9:20

Who the hell is Larry Fishburn? This is well, that's right. This is last Larry because he goes on Broadway and August Wilson's Two Trains Running, which he ends up winning a Tony Award for. So this is the death of Larry and the birth of Lawrence. The thespian, the thespian is born, you know.

Ron 9:38

His career trajectory is fascinating to me because in the 80s he's Cowboy Curtis in Peewee's Playhouse, which you can't get more sanitized of a character. And then in 91, he's Furious Styles and Boys in the Hood. Yeah. Yeah. 92 at Deep Cover. 93, he's nominated for an Oscar playing Ike Turner.

unknown 9:55

Right.

Ron 9:55

And What's Love Got to Do with It. I'm just so fascinated with that trajectory. I was talking to a friend of mine, so we were talking about Deep Cover. He had never seen it. And I said, you know, I was trying to think of other films where Lawrence Fishburne is the lead actor. And I don't know if there's many more. I think this one, obviously, in What's Love Got to Do With It, he's been almost like the linchpin in a lot of these other franchises. John Wick, The Matrix, like you need him, you need this character. But the vehicle isn't through him. And I feel like we've missed out on some great performances by not giving him the reins to some more films.

SPEAKER_11 10:29

There are a couple of things that come to mind for me in terms of the arc of the career of his career that you just said. I I would definitely linger a bit on him lying about his age to be in Apocalypse now. I would definitely add 1988 Spike Lee's school days, and and I would not sleep on Hannibal, the NBC TV series, which might have been the which would have been the last it's it's the last major network series I gave a shit about was Hannibal.

Ron 11:03

You know how often we ask each other in this house, is anyone still watching these shows?

SPEAKER_11 11:07

Hannibal was the last one for me. I thought Hannibal was incredibly wonderful. And I loved Lawrence Fishburne's character. And and it's interesting that you bring up The Matrix because not to go too off the rails here, but my biggest fear when I went to go see the Odyssey was that I didn't know whether I'd be able to look at Matt Damon that long.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

But that's what you mean. You know what I mean. You know exactly what I mean.

Ron 11:42

But the way that sounds a little odd.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

But the thing about the Odyssey that I found so incredible was I found myself thinking about the Matrix a lot.

SPEAKER_11 11:51

Of Matt Damon doesn't really have to do a lot in the same way that Keanu Reeves didn't have to do a lot, because it was the supporting cast that was really what was doing all of the work. That's that's my quick hot take on that. But but to your point, yes, Lawrence Fishburne, he works in this kind of really interesting supplementarity. I mean, I remember reading about him processing when the crew stopped speaking to him when they were shooting What's Love Got to Do with It. That he that he had really inhabited that character so much that to to develop to when the crew hates you, you know you're really doing you know you're really doing something right. You know.

Ron 12:37

Well, in that case, maybe. Maybe in other cases you're not doing something right.

SPEAKER_11 12:41

Yeah. And and I will also add another thing about Lawrence Fishburne in the 90s. I always like to begin with Abel Ferrara's king of New York.

Ron 12:49

Well, yeah, it's yeah, yeah, it's often forgotten because he's he's not a you know, he's a minor character, but again, someone who's incredibly important to telling the story.

SPEAKER_11 12:59

Incredible, memorable character. So I think of this incredible arc as as really beginning with it goes from King of New York to Boys in the Hood to Deep Cover. And that's the Larry farewell tour right there before we get Lawrence.

Ron 13:15

So this is the point where I don't want to stir you up too much because I know how you feel about the term neo noir. But in in your essay, you say that it's I really feel like I should have read that.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yeah. What what did what what exactly did I say?

Ron 13:29

You'll be happy to know I wrote it down. You call neo noir an unten. Well, you also write about it pretty, I mean, extensively in the passage of your book as well. In the essay, you call neon noir an untenable and lazy way to describe what's happening. I said lazy.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

I did say lazy.

Ron 13:45

And in an email to me, as soon as I sent you, here's the rundown, the first thing you say is, This looks great, but I don't use the term neo noir. I mean specific line from your book, you say the critical function of genre, noir in particular, and the consequential ways that blackness as the animating force of noir refines our understanding of genre. So I feel like if you pair that line from the book, the line from the essay, you start to paint a little more of a clearer picture. But I was hoping you could unpack that idea of why you feel neo-noir as a term is is untenable. And lazy. And lazy.

SPEAKER_11 14:20

I'm clearly afflicted with cenophilia. I embrace it, I'm nose wide open for it. And my love and devotion to not only film, but the study of film is not exclusively bound to classical Hollywood cinema. And while I understand and appreciate that cinema studies institutionalization comes in this moment of late 60s and the 70s, in that moment, genre became a constitutive part of, say, curriculums. And my issue is that genre perhaps has been thought of too often in terms of a category of a stable category. And I understand genre is a discourse. And I appreciate that I actually the way that genre helps me most is when I need to find shit.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Back in the day, if you're in a video store or DVD store, you don't want to have like a debate with the person behind the counter. You're just like, where are your musicals? Where's your romance? Where's your thrillers? And that's fine.

SPEAKER_11 15:20

But I felt like I was a bit tired of the way the conversations of noir just were continually being had as though we had to kiss the ass of the 40s and 50s. And to me, what makes noir so wonderful is that it is always a conversation about the social contract and who is a citizen and what does crime mean. If that's the case, then it's always contextual. We have to be very precise about the moment that we're talking about without reducing it to whatever they were concerned with in the 40s and 50s. So it was more about, I love you guys, but but I'm please don't use this term. Please don't use this term. I don't want to have to uh bow down to classical Hollywood cinema to have a conversation about 90s noir. And in that sense, it does this this idea, this cheekiness on my part does come out of the fact that I've been teaching a 90s noir class for several years. And because the way that 80s noir films were so quickly dismissed as derivative, especially by way of figures like Frederick Jameson, seemed a bit unfair to me. That by the time you get to the 90s, I felt like these filmmakers are not as uh compelled by the classical model. So just for the sake of argument, in my 90s noir class, the last time I taught it, these are the films that I screened. LA Confidential, Devil in a Blue Dress, Cape Fear, The Limey, The Grifters, Deep Cover, Homicide, Bound, Clockers, Jackie Brown, Suture, Wild at Heart, Doom Generation, and Ended with a Big Lebowski. It's a good one. You're all over the place there.

Ron 17:05

Yeah, you're you're it's a wide range.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

It's a wide range. And each film is a very distinct conversation with the idea of noir.

SPEAKER_11 17:14

I'm not in it to come up with some kind of universal term because we need to be particular in every case rather than just saying, again, that everything is derivative of the 40s and 50s. I think that the golden age of the 40s and 50s of film noir, it's some of my favorite cinema. And of course, it is a cinema that's informed my love of things like deep cover and what I kind of understand as a 90s noir. But I understand this in the sense that the discourse should always move forward. It shouldn't go backwards. I'm excited for whatever noir is on the horizon that will continue to challenge me.

Ron 18:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's jump into the film. The film opens in there's a card, Cleveland, 1972. And as a boy, Russell Stevens watches his father die after a liquor store robbery. And he vows at that point to never end up like him. We come to find out that means is no alcohol, no drugs, no violence. He's not going to lead that life. And 20 years later, we're all of a sudden in Cincinnati. Yeah. And Stevens is one of three black police officer candidates that are interviewed by a man named Carver, played by Charles Martin Smith. And each candidate is asked the same question. What is he actually testing with that question? Is it solely meant to be provocative to the audience and to the officers to garner a reaction from them?

SPEAKER_11 18:47

I mean, there's the this kind of hypothetical scenario that's put in place where someone can use racial slurs in a hypothetical sense to test one's reaction. Of course, Russell Stevens uh brilliantly answers that question in a way that puts the ask of the question in their place. To me, that kind of hypothetical moment where one seemingly is allowed to use racial slurs, it was just so highly reminiscent of Jackie Robinson's interview with the Brooklyn Dodgers. That Branch Ricke is calling Jackie Robinson out his name. And this is all to test to see whether, you know, Jackie Robinson wasn't the best Negro League ball player, but in the eyes of Branch Rickey, he was the one who had the best sensibility to be able to stand the abuse of white crowds. So that's supposed to justify the racial slurring that happens. And I have always found that, and and as well, I think I also write about this in the book, that not only do I think of it in terms of what's allowed in these hypothetical scenarios with Branch Rickey and Jackie Robinson, but also thinking of Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor with the job interview scene in the 1975 appearance of Richard Pryor on Saturday Night Live. I'm just really fascinated by the familiarity of that kind of exchange and the ways that that then becomes a mark of him being savvy enough to be the right candidate. But of course, in my mind, I lean more towards the second candidate's response, which is when he's when he grabs the wheel.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Yeah, yeah. Reaches across the desk, grabbed by the collar, says, Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?

SPEAKER_11 20:27

Right. And it's like that to me is totally appropriate, too. I found it really intriguing that we start in that moment of when we're first introduced to him.

Ron 20:36

It's the first we see that of he's exerting his power over these men or whoever is going to be the who he deems as the right person for the job. Why is Russell Stevens, obviously played by Larry Fishburn? Why is his response the right one?

SPEAKER_11 20:51

So any kind of racial slur, it's an excuse to not have to think. These are terms of dismissal. It's like, I know who the fuck you are. You are this term. I don't need to think about you. His response suggests that there is an entirely different category that Carver does not know about. Okay. You know, in that sense of like, if this thing is the one that would answer that question, I am not that thing. It's very clever of the ways of thinking outside of the question, are not allowing the question to limit the scope of who you are. I think that's what's kind of playing out in the scenario.

Ron 21:28

It's definitely provocative. It gets your attention for I mean, even for just film-wise. Yeah, someone's father is killed, and then the next thing you know, you're being forced to watch this.

SPEAKER_11 21:38

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ron 21:38

I guess you can call it an interview.

SPEAKER_11 21:40

I mean, you're kind of you're kind of yeah, you're kind of dizzy after daddy dies in the snow, and then you're like, fuck, is hey, he was an American graffiti, and then he talks, and then you're like, whoa, we're we're someplace.

Ron 21:54

We're off and running.

SPEAKER_11 21:55

Yeah, we're off and running. Yeah.

Ron 21:57

Yeah, they do it differently in Cincinnati, I guess.

SPEAKER_11 21:59

Yeah, yeah. And they have shitty chili, too.

Ron 22:05

I'm a hey, I'm a Pittsburgh sports fan, so that's that's we can talk all the smack we want about Cleveland and Cincinnati.

SPEAKER_11 22:10

Yeah, yeah. Cincinnati has the worst chili in the northern hemisphere.

Ron 22:14

Isn't that what they're known for? Are they known for putting it on everything?

SPEAKER_11 22:17

Everybody from Cincinnati is always pedaling this damn chili. And it's like, it's not a chili. It's an abomination.

Ron 22:24

That's what it is. So Carver, he then he pitches this assignment, but first he's Reading off Stevens' psychophile.

SPEAKER_05 22:40

Rigid moral code, but with no underlying system of values, insufficiently developed sense of stuff. A little rage, a little repressed violence.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

I'm telling you. Undercover, all your faults will become virtues. You'll be a star there, John. You'll do a lot more good there than you ever would have in uniform.

Ron 23:01

And he reads that off not as though it's a liability. He's reading it off like it's the credential that is needed to do this line of work. He's he's, in a sense, I read it as he's weaponizing Russell Stevens' trauma as the qualification for the drug. So is this recruitment or exploitation?

SPEAKER_11 23:20

I read it as exploitation. I read it as a kind of typology exercise. And I read it by way of the blues expression that it's not what they call you, it's what you answer to. I mean, Russell Stevens isn't being read as a cop at all. Carver's basically saying, you know, you're really a criminal. You're you're you're you're a criminal who's pretending to be a cop, which comes up later in the film. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It comes up later. So Carver's asking him, you know, like, I don't even need you to do any fucking work. I just need you to be what you really are. Be yourself out there. You be you.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

You be you. That's basically what Carver said. Yeah.

Ron 23:57

I actually caught something on this on my latest watch that Carver calls him John while recruiting him, which is his undercover name, which is a little psychological trick that I feel like he's pulling. Because it's his undercover name will be John Hall.

SPEAKER_11 24:09

You would call it smart kinder than me.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

That's a continuity error. That's it. That's how I write it. I in my book, I write about it as like this is a straight up continuity error, but it's really fascinating that he's called a psychological trick.

Ron 24:26

He's putting him in his role already.

SPEAKER_11 24:28

All right. I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, it maybe he's that smart. Michael Tolkien wrote this with Henry Bean, I believe. Yeah, Henry Bean. Yeah, Henry Bean.

Ron 24:38

When they originally wrote this, it was with a white lead. Yes, it was. The studio executive suggested changing the character. I think I have the term to niche market the film after the success of New Jack City and Boys in the Hood. Am I right?

SPEAKER_11 24:53

Do I have that history correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. After the black film explosion of 91, the property actually began to consider it as something that could have a black lead. The ways that the initial screenplay and then when Michael Tolkien was brought on, to me, it's just this kind of very strange synergy moment of when I think of Michael Tolkien, I'm I'm also thinking of the fact that uh he writes uh that film The Rapture. He works on Robert Altman's The Player, he works on a film The New Age. He's doing these kind of funky anti-establishment genre films. So the fact that Lawrence Fishburne can so easily fit within this mold makes it a kind of accidental and important consequence of the black film explosion.

Ron 25:39

It is fascinating to see. You know, it's funny. I I heard that fact, I thanks to your supplements, by the way, from the consulting producer of the release. Uh I read that all about the supplements.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

All about the supplements. It is.

Ron 25:50

We're nerds, we're nerds for it. Yeah. I guess I read that as another kind of exploitation, too, of like, ooh, there's a market that we haven't tapped into yet. This is a way for us to I mean, I guess it's all the the whole point is to make money, I suppose. So I don't know. Sadly. Maybe I'm just too pure of a of I'm thinking too purely as opposed to the bank accounts of the executives of the movie studio.

SPEAKER_11 26:11

Well, I mean, here's the thing that any time that Hollywood has insisted on its measure of being inclusive, the most interesting and important films are not the films that actually succeed in the Hollywood model. I think it's the films that are made possible by this seeming new age of inclusiveness, but ultimately don't thrive and aren't the the blockbusters that that people hope that they are. I mean, that's the way that I kind of look at some of the most important films that came out of the 1970s. I think the most important film the in terms of the idea of black film, the most important films to me in the 1970s were made possible by the belief by studios that they were making a black exploitation film with a low investment, high return model. So when we think about what the 90s look like after 91, it's there's some really great moments throughout. And of course, I I feel like deep cover is a necessary part of that conversation.

Ron 27:15

I read Carver as the villain of the film. Not really a dramatic one, maybe, but a systemic. I wrote that he represents the apparatus of exploitation.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

You're giving Carver too much credit.

SPEAKER_11 27:25

I think of Carver as just a manager in the way that we should hate all managers. He's carrying out the directive of those above him.

Ron 27:35

Yes, yes, and he's he's looking at Stevens's Stevens's? It's an extra S there. His damage as an asset recruits him into this machine, and then whenever it comes time later down the line, about an hour and 15 minutes into the movie, he puts a stop to it because it's not in the best interest of the state. You don't think that's what Duke's Bill Duke's trying to convey, that the system is the villain. You think there might be something more to that?

SPEAKER_11 28:02

Well, well, yeah, I think that that Bill Duke is definitely making a critique of of of say American tendencies. I think one of the things that has really, in terms of thinking of what the film means after its release, the film suggests that the American government is colluding with Latin American drug dealers for the sake of beneficial policies for America and Latin America. And at the point of its release in 1992, it's completely speculative. But of course, by the end of the decade, we know that it is true by way of Gary Webb that yes indeed, cocaine trafficking became a part of funding the Contras in the battle against the Sandinistas after the American government, after there was legislation that was passed which put a cap on how much federal funding could go towards the funding of counterinsurgency groups. So the shit's not speculative anymore. No, it's a it's a yeah, it's almost like a premonition.

Ron 29:06

I was watching it and I had to go look at the dates of when that all came out. And I was like, oh my god, this is years before the deep cover was years before.

SPEAKER_11 29:16

Yeah. But of course, this is an argument that's been made for decades of why was there seemingly such a free-flowing pipeline of drugs into America, especially in terms of the conversations that were happening around heroin. The urban legend was that this had a great deal to do with soldiers that were coming back or some kind of trafficking channels. And of course, it's all borne out to be true. It's exceptionally disturbing, but I think that it's incredible that Deep Cover is able to seemingly have a minor plot point that becomes more consequential long after the film has has come and gone.

Ron 29:52

Deep cover, the borderline documentary. Yeah. Stevens uh he accepts the job and he arrives in LA. He is now John Hall. Yeah. And he starts buying a product on the street. There is a very quick scene that I don't think you're meant to know who all the players are. Obviously, if you watch the film a second time, you get a little more of a sense when they show the little pyramid of here are the street dealers and here's the next guy. And one of the people that show up there is a mid-level dealer named Eddie. Right. Eddie is played by Roger Gwynvere Smith.

SPEAKER_11 30:22

Incredible stage actor. Even when you think about his and the how incredible his improvisational sense of the character Smiley is and do the right thing. Yeah. So his character, the light-skinned fuck up that he is, it's hysterical. He is incredibly hysterical. Like him in the crack house with that white woman. Like, yeah, why are you gonna diss my newbian queen like that? And you're like, holy shit.

Ron 30:49

This is he's such such toast. John slash Russell, he reports what he's learned. He witnessed a murder. We saw a man named Ivy shoot a young dealer on the street. So he reports that he's witnessed a murder. His superiors are are pushing him to continue moving forward. That's a trope in in film that always gets me is hey, I witnessed a murder. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not worried about that. We're not we're not worried about people dying on the streets. We need to continue to move forward, and that's not really our mission here. We think that they're trying to do is get the drugs off the street, but we come to find out that's not not so true. But that I feel like that trope pops up in movies all the time.

SPEAKER_11 31:26

And usually when it involves some conceit of an undercover operation, yes, it usually entails having to use drugs or having to perform a killing. I think it's distinctive that in the case of Deep Cover, it's about his witnessing that he needs to be reminded that as an undercover operative, you you must circulate with a different moral code. If anything, he's being slapped across the face that you're not a fucking cop. You're a drug dealer. Be yourself. Yeah, again, be yourself. You don't have to do any work.

Ron 32:05

Just be your daddy died in front of you.

SPEAKER_09 32:07

You you're all good.

Ron 32:08

Yeah, that's to use that trauma. We need to use that trauma.

SPEAKER_09 32:12

Yes, yes. Instrumentalize your trauma.

Ron 32:15

That's oh that's see, I like that. Wait, I don't wait, I like the terminology, not not it, not it being not putting it to action. Uh John then sidles up to Eddie, but Eddie is soon arrested. That will come up here soon. After he's arrested, we get an inside look at David Jason. David Jason, never trust the man with two first names, by the way. David Jason, uh played by Jeff Goldblum. We get an inside look at his life. The he's the lawyer who launders money for for the cartel. How would you describe how Bill Duke presents David Jason's life at this starting point? Because we're going to see a major transformation from this point until the end of the film.

SPEAKER_11 32:52

It's really fascinating to me that at this point of Jeff Goldblum's career, that this is really it's a great opportunity for him to be a bastard. It's an incredibly perfect opportunity for that. I'm always really interested in thinking about the significance of Jewish characters who are seemingly performing a kind of whiteness. We could go back to the jazz singer about that. But particularly, I go back to Norman Mailer's The White Negro, of thinking about some tendencies or some aspirations of thinking about Jewish masculinity in terms of its ability to perform a kind of blackness. So when I first saw this film, that's what kind of struck me, of what made it so distinctive from, say, the lethal weapons or the defiant ones, is that I could not recollect seeing a character who was so marked as seemingly non-white, but bound to a black character. When we first are introduced to him, there's this radical juxtaposition of him with his Shiksa wife, of the blonde, blue-eyed wife in the sense, and it's almost kind of cliche, but he's so quickly marked as someone of a kind of aspirational Jewishness that I found really fascinating. I think as you've alluded to, he goes through a radical transformation. And I arguably think that his transformation is much more dramatic than that of Russell Stevens, John Hall. The interaction between Jeff Golblum and Lawrence Fishburne, I find it so incredibly refreshing. I don't like to be patronized by interracial buddy films that seemingly are working out the uh that offer some kind of resolution to the problems of the world in which we live. And that's that's a part of their social problem tendency. And and it's very fantastical and it's it's lovely to believe in, but it is fantastical. So I like that they have they have some really hard and rough exchanges, they're they're coming about about their differences that you know you can't walk away from that shit thinking that this is a happy, happy, joy, joy moment. There is no kumbaya between the two of them. And and then again, I find that kind of very refreshing.

Ron 35:14

Eddie sets up Stevens, he kind of has to give somebody up, and Stevens is arrested, and then David Jason gets Russell Stevens out of the jam. Uh his arraignment. He's acquitted because the bye he was busted for, they weren't drugs, it was a baby laxative.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

And so I find myself thinking the old baby laxative.

Ron 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Yeah. It's like the banana and the tailpipe of drug deals, right?

Ron 35:38

Another film about a black character and his relationship with his white counterparts. Is Stevens being used by yet another party here to expose Eddie?

SPEAKER_11 35:48

I think that really that he's more of a bystander. I mean, they don't really need him to confirm or deny anything. All they really needed to know was that a rat had made its made its presence known. So it was just the situation provided a way of testing. And and thankfully, or not really, thankfully, it doesn't really work out well for Eddie. It doesn't work out for Eddie at all.

Ron 36:10

No, no. That's where we meet Felix Barbosa, the underboss. He beats Eddie to death. Once Felix learns that Eddie's been talking to the cops, David gives Stevens even more product than the DEA can plausibly buy, and it forces him deeper into dealing. And this is where their partnership really starts to come together. And this is an exchange I've also been dying to ask you about because you do speak about it quite extensively or write about it extensively, in both the essay and in your book, is that uh Stevens goes to meet David in a hotel room, and David had just been with a presumably a prostitute? I'm not sure. It's it's suggested that it's it's his mistress. In the hallway, they're they're leaving, and Jason asks Stevens why he likes sleeping with black women so much.

SPEAKER_07 36:53

David, we gotta go, man. I don't know. Maybe you feel like you're fucking a slave. What do you mean like a bond? No, like a racist.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

What's the most intense attack thing you ever did?

SPEAKER_07 37:02

You ever uh been with two women at the same time? Yeah, your mother and your father. Wow, yeah, yeah. Why not we get a buck wild?

Ron 37:10

You wrote that Hall's line reflects the dynamics of power and racialization that shadow Jason's desire, and that it ruins any possibility of social problem solving. I was hoping you could you could unpack that and just that exchange. Because that's another one that if I'm not I'm not prepared for that exchange, it's a most shocking.

SPEAKER_11 37:30

Yeah, I do want to say first off that you know, when I saw for when you when I know when I first saw Felix, Felix Barboza's character, you know, beating to death Eddie with a pool cue. The whole time I was immediately thinking the fact that, wait a minute, that's the guy from Barney Miller, because that is Gregory Sierra, right? Because I mean, I'm a I'm a product of my age. I mean, when I saw him, I knew him already from Barney Miller and Safford and Son. It was it was quite incredible to see him in in that moment.

Ron 38:05

So quite shocking to see him beat Smiley for in Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Felix, Felix! Yeah, that is like what the fuck?

Ron 38:14

That's actually a pretty good impression. That's pretty good. You've been working on that one. That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_11 38:18

Yeah, yeah. I was I was saving that for you. Monitored. So yeah, there's not going to be any ebony and ivory holding hands and skipping down the hallway between the two of them. What's left hanging in the air is a lot of unresolved things about a history of race and a history of power that we just as the audience are left to acknowledge and observe. There is no placating it. It's shocking that the the kind of ease with which they can have that kind of conversation. Understanding it is about us carrying the consequence of that exchange. I mean, there is there's a history of America that's happening in that exchange. As much as there is not said, there's a hell of a lot that is said. And I think that's what I find really so important about that exchange and also a great relief that this film is not going to condescend to me, that this film is actually going to pose some very hard things. And this film is very much about fuck your trigger warning. There's there's some very rough things that it has to say.

unknown 39:24

Yeah.

Ron 39:25

Yeah, they don't tiptoe around each other at all in in the entire film. Even in the very beginning, when they first meet, what does David say about Russell? He said, Oh, he's a cop. Like even that is not there's no hesitation, like whatever's on your mind, they just come out with it. They're not tiptoeing around each other.

SPEAKER_11 39:39

I think what's what's a real testament to their bonding on screen is that Bill Duke was very receptive to Fishburn and Goldblum improvising. So they they develop an incredibly wonderful rapport. And I had not realized how extensively the improvisation went until I mean we're we're not there yet, but definitely in the final sequence, there was a lot of improvising that was happening and the and down there on the docks, and it ultimately ended up being quite wonderful.

Ron 40:14

Victoria Dillard plays Betty, and we are Betty the Beard. Yes. We are introduced to Betty. She runs an art gallery. They're using that art gallery to launder the cartel's money. And while flirting with Betty, Russell Stevens slash John Hall, he holds a wooden mask in front of his face during the conversation. So he's performing John Hall for Jason the whole film, but here he's performing behind an actual mask while he's flirting with with Betty.

SPEAKER_11 40:41

The things women make you do. Yes. Women make you go make you go Balinese at the drop of the dun. Yes.

Ron 40:48

I was hoping you could talk a little bit about the mask, what it represents, or what it represented to you whenever you watch the film.

SPEAKER_11 40:55

Well, I have to say that I initially overthought it. I overthought it in the sense that I reached out to a scholar of the Ramayama and sent him a screenshot of the mask. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Yeah, and I got all this history about this particular character and all of that.

SPEAKER_11 41:11

And then that's when I kind of realized, yep, I have overthought this. I need to be, I need to keep it a little simpler. It's not that complicated. That when you think about mass and performativity in American culture, it's quite significant that uh you have a black character quite explicitly performing a sense of self. It also alludes in my mind to a sense of the tradition of passing literature as well. It's interesting to see how the film kind of intersects with some degree of thinking about the idea of passing. I think also it is a testament to the fact that uh Lawrence Fish, Larry, sorry, Larry Fishburne. Get it right. You gotta get it right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He has not crossed the Rubicon yet. He is still Larry. That uh it's also a testament to the fact that Larry and Victoria were a couple at the time. Did not know that. Yes, they were a couple at the time. Love is fleeting, but yeah, at the time they were they were a thing, yeah. But I also find that there's a certain an argument can be made that she isn't the most fleshed-out character. She's certainly not the most complex character, but I like that she has a kind of unconvincibility to her. And I and I mean that in the sense that there's a lot of unchecked desire, I think, between Lawrence Fishburne's character and Jeff Goldblum's. And I and I say unchecked because of perhaps the ways that Victoria Dillard's character is not as strong, which is why I jokingly call her the beer in the film.

Ron 42:46

I love that analysis. I look at it completely differently now.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

I mean, what's the strongest relationship in the film? It's Jeff Goldblum and Lawrence Fishburn. Yeah, it's the two men. So in like Victoria, it's like, okay, all right. Sure, sure, this is what you want. You know?

Ron 43:01

Well, it did we did just establish that they're getting along really well. Yes, yes. The violence is going to start to escalate now because, well, as if it hadn't already. One of Stevens' uh street dealers is killed by a rival named Ivy, who we'd seen earlier, a big muscle-bound man who shoots a teenager in the street earlier in the film. And uh David tells him that if he doesn't retaliate, the street is going to read that as a weakness and that he's likely to be next. So Stevens kills Ivy. I mean, he he commits a murder. Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 43:30

It's it's what every good undercover it's what every good undercover operative has to do. They end up in a situation where they have become so fundamentally convincing of the city.

Ron 43:41

Is this the point where he crossed the line? Did he already cross the line before? Like, is this the point where he stops being that cop undercover and starts being a criminal who happens to be a cop?

SPEAKER_11 43:49

No, I think he's still a cop. I think he ultimately wants to follow through on being this kind of righteous character. But when he discovers that he's dealing with unrighteous people, which is the American government, that's when he breaks. I mean, what's the fucking point of being ethical in an unethical world? We could very well be asking ourselves that question today, every day. Why do we bother to be ethical in an unethical world? And I think that Lawrenceburns' character eventually reaches that breaking point when he realizes that, yeah, they they don't care. The government doesn't care about what I'm doing. But it At this point, he's still, I mean, he articulates regret, right? Which is also a sign that he is not completely crossed over into being a yeah.

Ron 44:39

I get I think you're well, okay, yeah, I think you're right. You just made me think of when we get to this point when he shoots Glegos, there's not a lot of regret there. That's a necessity to get to where he wants to go.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Right. Right.

Ron 44:49

This this feels like it it breaks him emotionally that he felt like he had to do this thing. Now his boss, Carver, our favorite character, asks him point blank. He says, What was it like popping ivy? He calls himself God about the multiple. I told you I was God. I told you I was God. Yeah. And then he needles him, and this is where I thought, you're such a prick. He needles him about, oh, I went to Princeton. So I went to Princeton to avoid that kind of violence. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Is this a commentary where black cops sit in the hierarchy of law enforcement? Carver's calling himself God.

SPEAKER_11 45:22

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Ron 45:23

Like I went to Princeton, so I didn't have to do what you just had to do. So I'm curious how it felt doing it.

SPEAKER_11 45:28

I think that this is really the more I watch the film and the more that I spend time in the academy, the more I just see Carver as just the embodiment of the managerial class. There are greater evils, but he is the manager. He is the messenger of the greater authority of messages. I just think of them as as a really shitty and weasley vessel of those that are far above all of our pay grades.

Ron 45:56

Yeah, there's nothing really the most satisfying second of the film is at the end, whenever Stevens punches Carver in the stomach. But we didn't get to that point yet.

SPEAKER_11 46:05

But yeah, I you know, and a successful Iran Contra trial, a premonition of a successful Iran Contra.

Ron 46:13

Stevens and David, they they go together to Felix and they're trying to buy a large amount of product. And this is a this is the scene when Felix starts to verbally attack David, and they play a game of hot hands that that ends with David's hand bleeding. This is one of the scenes where David has his being Jewish thrown in his face. Right.

SPEAKER_11 46:30

This is where it's this is where, yeah, his Jewishness is in introduced in a disparaging way. Yes. And it's it becomes a part of it's a very interesting mark that his character is not allowed to be white. His character, it's almost as though you're not white, you're just Jewish. It's this moment of a not only this whole masculinist anti-Semitic discourse, but we're also coming off of what is the fucked up homophobic moment in the bathroom as well. Right? It's right. I didn't even mention it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, I don't know if there's a there's a whole lot we can say about it. It's it's not a perfect scene. It happens. Yeah. And it's just like, really? Did we have that to do that?

SPEAKER_02 47:19

That's not even top shelf homophobia. That's just like, that's there's there's lazy. If Neo Noir is lazy, this is a different level of lazy that ends up happening in the bathroom. But I digress.

SPEAKER_11 47:33

I find it really interesting how he's not allowed, as I said, to be white.

Ron 47:38

Yeah, the question I actually, you're answering the question without me asking. Yeah, I was gonna say, is David having being forced to wear a mask in this world, but a different one than what Steve Stevens is wearing one for the sake of I'm undercover. This is not really who I am. But David is a my question, I guess, was is David also wearing a mask in this world?

SPEAKER_11 47:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think David thinks that he can pass for white, and then he says, fuck that, I I'm gonna be black. I think he leapfrogs and it's like, fuck it. I'm going, I'm going for the gusto. I'm I I I want to be better than white in his it just it just hit me just now.

Ron 48:13

So the beginning of the film, Carver is using that, he's launching that slur to see how people react. And the person that's selected is the one that has not just no reaction, but he has a reaction in a way that Carver deems is the right one. But David is having his being Jewish thrown in his face. It looks like he's holding back rage.

SPEAKER_11 48:31

Yeah, yeah.

Ron 48:32

Almost like the second cop reacted. Yeah, except he doesn't actually grab Felix.

SPEAKER_11 48:37

That whole goddamn sequence where it's it's where it's almost like I I think of it as Jeff Goldblum is serial killer moment where he's just sitting on the couch, he's I want my cake and eat it too. I want my cake and eat it too.

Ron 48:52

And you're like, Yeah, this you're you're you're really taking this hard, my guy. Some of it is on himself because he is the worst hot hands player I've ever seen in my life. I've played hot hands with children that have better reaction times than Jeff Goldblum's character in this movie. No, no, no, no, David.

SPEAKER_11 49:09

That's one. This is two.

Ron 49:11

It's awful. It's awful. Felix gives up Stevens as he Felix gives up Stevens and David to Taft. Taft has is a police officer that we haven't mentioned yet, comes into contact with with Russell Stevens earlier in the film. He's the original resting officer, whenever.

SPEAKER_11 49:28

Yes, Clarence Williams III, a great dad, uh a great father figure, a sub father figure, even a better father figure than he was in Prince's Purple Rain, that's for damn sure.

Ron 49:40

So his his partner is dirty, he goes to Felix, Felix gives up Stevens and David, and Stevens exposes Felix wearing a wire during during the bust. And the chase ends, they're they're all all of a sudden in this car, and Russell Stevens is driving like a madman. Betty was with them. It's a wild scene. And the chase ends with uh Felix was shot in both hands and in the buttocks, and then he's run over by a police car. I mentioned of course he is. Uh you mentioned Goldblum sitting on the couch with that, I'll have my cake in the car. I'm watching this like almost laughing a little bit. It's like he's going for broke. It's like, yeah, is that it's very Shakespearean.

SPEAKER_09 50:19

I he it's almost like put a skull in his hands.

Ron 50:24

I want my cake and eat it too. What does he say when he leans out of he shoots him and he goes, gets Felix falls out of the car? Barbecue shrimp! You'll come over and barbecue jumbo shrimp. That's what he says. Yes. Like it's almost like it's tipping close to camp. Yeah, we're not.

SPEAKER_11 50:40

Felix is like, I'll see you in hell, and he's holding his his hand. It's not only is it a scene and where Jeff Goldblum's character has really crossed over into a different level of the kind of masculinity that he wants to pitch. It's also Lawrence Fishburne's character is directly defied orders. He has put his own moral code above the direct orders of the government. And I think this kind of alludes what I was saying to you before. It's building up to the moment in which he discovers it's not worth it to be ethical in an unethical world. Meanwhile, Jeff Goldblum is he's completely lost it. I mean, he's he's gone from he's he's become a sociopath.

Ron 51:25

He kills somebody that I think I viewed as his rival, which is Felix. And his his reaction is he kind of loses it. Whereas when Russell Stevens kills Ivy, he unravels, but in an emotional inward way of I can't believe they both have their own version of unraveling.

SPEAKER_11 51:43

Right. Because when Lawrence Fishburne's character reflects on I've killed another black man, that we get a shot of him looking through his family photographs. And we see a picture of his father, but we also see a picture of a woman who we can assume is his mother. And that's the only mention we have or any gesture or suggestion that there was a mother, right? You're right. So his sense of committing the murder is to reflect on the loss of his family. It's it's a rather twisted processing, but it also shows that again, he articulates a kind of regret that again, Jeff Goldblum has gone too far.

Ron 52:22

Yeah. Yeah. Well, too far in many ways. His overact. Yeah. This then prompts for Jason and Stevens to finally have a meet with Gallegos. I really appreciate the voiceover. I know that's a more staple is to have voiceover, but when they had that meet with Gallegos, the delivery that Fishburne has of, you know, finally. Yeah. I found my head. We have our, you know, he finally gets to Gallegos, who was at the top of that pier, not the top. He was just down one rung from the top of the pyramid, which was his mission. And Gallegos claims that since Felix owed a debt, David and Stevens now inherit that debt. And now we have finally have that scene when Carver tries to pull Stevens back in, revealing that the State Department now wants Gallegos' associate, Hector Guzman, who was the top of the pyramid, they want him installed as a foreign head of state. And Stevens quits. He starts drinking, tries drugs for the first time. And you know, Carver, he used he's using Stevens, or I guess Carver and whoever's giving Carver orders. It's they're using him until it becomes politically inconvenient. And Stevens is a disposable, you said earlier, you think this is it, this is the turning point where Stevens realizes that he's he's being exploited and he just he's over the edge now. That's this is the powerful line.

SPEAKER_04 53:40

Yeah, they're bringing me to Washington.

SPEAKER_05 53:42

Come along with me, man. We'll go to Washington, we'll have a budget, huh? We'll have some clout. I didn't get into this for that. Well, neither did I. But that's all there is.

SPEAKER_08 53:50

If the fucking spoils of war, you might as well enjoy it. Well, if that's all there is, I've been wasting my motherfucking time with you. I can get more clout and more money on the street than I can get following your ass to Washington. Knowing this whole fucking time. I'm a cop pretending to be a drug dealer. I ain't nothing but a drug dealer pretending to be a cop. I ain't gonna pretend no more, Jerry. I quit.

SPEAKER_11 54:24

He's a character who is deeply laden with a lot of regret. Our sense of his personality is to be in service, to be righteous, to fulfill the codes of the law, his worship in some ways, of the of being of use to the American cause. It just it it's a slap in the face when he's saying, like, I've done all of this work, I've done what I thought I was supposed to do, and he's met with bureaucracy, he's not met with justice or a reward for executing the law and a kind of moral authority.

Ron 55:01

And I think as an audience, we are totally on board with his reaction to being told, no, it's we're gonna stop now because because you know, who unless you work for the government, I can't say that I'm uh I'm the most trustworthy of the government. Yeah, and so we empathize with his reaction of just like, no, fuck this, I'm done. I'm not I'm not doing this. I'm not coming in. I'm gonna see this through in my way. Right.

SPEAKER_11 55:22

And he becomes he becomes his father's son.

Ron 55:25

Fulfills that prophecy that was laid out at the beginning when he says, I'm never going to turn out like him.

SPEAKER_11 55:30

That's always a good giveaway when a character says, I'm never gonna do that.

Ron 55:33

It's like, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna do that, my guy. We're just waiting for that turning point and what's gonna push you over the edge. There you go. Start manifesting. Jason's it's like a shitty dream board. Jason and Stevens uh murder Gallegos after being unable to come up with the money that he demanded, even though what is the who is the character that plays the one of Felix's right hand men? Um, what the hell is his name?

SPEAKER_11 55:57

He has a weird name. It's not clear to me whether they're lovers or not. Or I I I just don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's I don't know why he's there.

Ron 56:07

I really don't. He's kind of a whiny bitch. He's very docile. He's not an intimidating figure at all.

SPEAKER_11 56:14

No, he has some kind of really interesting relationship with Felix. Gopher. That's that's all we've got is gopher.

Ron 56:22

Yeah, it's like Prince and Madonna. He's he's gopher. Oh, wait, that's his character name.

SPEAKER_11 56:26

That's his character's name is Gopher. That was his real name. So wait a minute. No, no, no, no. That's the only name that we have for the character played by Sidney Lassock.

Ron 56:35

This character, it's again, it's like this is a serious film, but anytime he shows up and opens his mouth, I'm just like, yeah, this guy's in the wrong movie, but he's great.

SPEAKER_11 56:43

I mean, I I think I think that there's something about his relationship to Felix that it's just a lingering kind of stick, which is already uh a bit of a hyper masculinity wet dream as it is.

Ron 56:57

Well, this well, gopher, yeah. He tells them Felix didn't owe them that much money. My read is Jason and Stevens already kind of knew what they had to do with Gallagos and paying him his money. He's going to kill you. He's gonna kill him. Yeah, it's it's never going to stop. So they do kill him. And we talked about this before, how the reaction's a little bit different this time from Stevens. And Gallagos was the original target, and Stevens murders him and takes the money. So is he fulfilling Carver's prophecy? He said from the beginning his criminal nature was his qualification.

SPEAKER_11 57:26

He has to some extent, but there's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ron 57:30

But there's also how Carver lined up, right? Kind of saw that psych profile and as like, are you gonna live up to this or not?

SPEAKER_11 57:37

And yeah, I'm thinking maybe he just didn't think he's lived up to it because he wasn't given the option to actually be the moral avenger that he wanted to be.

Ron 57:45

It's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point. They asked him to shut it down, right?

SPEAKER_11 57:49

When he was getting somewhere, and he was prepared to do all of that, but yeah. Instead, we have the venture capitalist kind of pitch that ends up happening, and it's a beautiful pitch.

Ron 58:00

It's a beautiful pitch that the well, elsewhere, we have not mentioned this. The neighbor, uh Stevens' neighbor, when he first moves out to LA, yeah, she tried she at one point tried to sell her kid to Stevens, and she dies of an overdose. And that neighbor story the the boy loses a parent to addiction. It's similar, not the same, but similar to the wound that Stevens is carrying from losing his father, who presumably was a abuser of drugs and alcohol. Are Duke and the writers drawing a direct parallel between Stevens' childhood and this neighbor's child?

SPEAKER_11 58:35

I I think just more generally of he he's bearing witness to the destruction of the family in the same way that he experienced it himself. But to also feel complicit, he can't wholly divorce himself from his feelings. Even though we in we get that incredible moment out on the sidewalk where he's reciting this really incredible poetry from the 70s, which I think is a part of his general way in which Lawrence Fishburne's voice is access to his consciousness, whether it's in the voiceover, whether he's speaking in general. It's again, it's a part of the more general poignancy of there's a there's the expression that no one gets out of here alive, that there's just no way that he'll be able to achieve what he dreams without there being some casualties along the way.

Ron 59:25

There's also this entire subplot of synthetic cocaine that they're trying to make and sell, and this is where we end up on the docks with with Jason and Stevens. They invite designer drugs to designer keys. Yeah, what is a time traveler made this film, apparently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jason and Stevens invite Guzman, he has diplomatic immunity, to buy into their new synthetic cocaine operation, and Guzman accuses them of racism.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

You racist Americans, you just want to cut us poor Hispanics completely out of the market.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

No, Mr. Guzman, I think you know there's no such thing as an American anymore. No Hispanics, no Japanese, no blacks, no whites, no nothing. It's just rich people and poor people. The three of us are all rich, so we're on the same side.

Ron 1:00:12

See, I I wrote constant tension, but I'm not so sure that's accurate. Because of how well Jason and and Hall slash Stevens get along with each other. I think there's an underlying racial tension there.

SPEAKER_11 1:00:24

Yeah.

Ron 1:00:25

Obviously, the fucking a slave line, how Stevens is moving through the hierarchies of his job. And then David Jason stands up there and just erases all of that with this these few lines. Yeah. I'm gonna I hate now I feel guilty doing this to you by giving you another line from something that you No, no, no. I mean, I'm looking at I you you you made me open my fucking books. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You describe the moment as post-racial solidarity meets the way of capital, is the way that you so eloquently put it.

SPEAKER_11 1:00:54

I think one of the most interesting lies that Americans often want to tell themselves is that race doesn't matter, or that race is strictly about looking at someone who's black or brown. And one of the things that I understand and appreciate and am frustrated by in terms of American history is that America is founded by an idea of race. Race is always already a constitutive part of so much of our lives. And that includes having a conversation about whiteness, that includes a conversation about blackness, it's a conversation about power. So, what I find so lovely about Jeff Goblin's speech is that it's yet again another gesture towards as long as we all have money, race won't matter. That this is how you deal with the problem of race, is that everybody has to be rich. And it's a very sexy claim. It's a very sexy and exclusive claim that's being made. And it almost, it almost works. It almost works, except the father figure shows up.

Ron 1:02:02

That's where I'm going next. Detective Taft, our guy, he shows up to make an arrest and is shot dead. I don't think Russell's going to shoot this man. Yeah, and he and I don't believe he will, and he doesn't. And and David Jason shoots him. He shoots Detective Taft.

SPEAKER_09 1:02:19

Yeah.

Ron 1:02:19

You've mentioned this many times. Of course, I I write, is Taft a stand-in for his father? Well, obviously. So Taft is a stand-in for his father. So then Stevens has to see his father die twice? Yeah. His actual father, and then the stand-in for the father. He has to watch him die for the five.

SPEAKER_09 1:02:33

The second time is the charm. The second time brings him back. Brings him back in the full.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

He remembers who he is. No bloody dollars in his hand. It's but it is a van filled with blood.

Ron 1:02:43

It is a van full of them, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:45

A van filled with blood money.

Ron 1:02:47

This does change some things with where Russell Stevens, John Hall, planned to go after after this meeting because he kills David Jason in self-defense. I say self-defense because Jason is raising his gun at him and Russell shoots him.

SPEAKER_11 1:03:00

It's a breakup. It's a breakup.

Ron 1:03:02

It's over.

SPEAKER_11 1:03:03

It's a total it's it's uh yeah, a gunfight slash breakup.

Ron 1:03:08

But it's a breakup, it's a breakup that's different than other films, as you've mentioned in a lot of your writing. You've you've mentioned the rejection of the interracial pieta.

SPEAKER_11 1:03:20

Yes.

Ron 1:03:20

And I was hoping you could dive into that.

SPEAKER_11 1:03:23

Yeah, so the the the paeta is uh it's uh it's a trope of that goes back to Mary holding Jesus when he's been he's dead and taken down from the cross, cradling him, and it always has these kind of maternal comforting connotations. But it is also something that seemingly pops up in a lot of these uh interracial male coupling moments, especially in social problem films, whether we're talking about Home of the Brave or especially in the Defiant ones when Sidney Courtier is cuddling Tony Curtis. But what becomes especially interesting about them is that in this moment of male intimacy, of two men comforting one another, that there's usually some dumbass joke about how one of them is really a woman, which is supposed to kind of diffuse what is this intimacy that's happening. In the case of the Defiant ones, Tony Curtis, when he's being cradled, has to look at their and like, you know, you're a really beautiful woman. And then they exchange the kiss by way of him lighting his cigarette and giving it to him. And then, of course, the most egregious yeah, the most egregious weapon. Yeah, yeah. I mean, where they would tell you it's what a beautiful woman, beautiful man you are, and then give me a kiss before they get here. And of course, my favorite is as we're panning all the way out. Where did that bullet hit you anywhere? Ha ha ha. And it's just it's amazing how much we have there's always there's there's a whole legacy of trying to diffuse what perhaps is a kind of anxiety that'll be uh generated by just having unchecked male intimacy on the screen.

Ron 1:05:01

I love the choice though to end this differently. I mean, you mentioned multiple times in this conversation of how Betty's the beard, you know, like these two men who knows there's there's affection there. And it doesn't end with Stevens cradling him, sorry for what he's done.

SPEAKER_11 1:05:16

No, it's he stands there and he cries. He fucking cries over him. I mean, that's a really, a really precious and important moment in terms of what distinguishes this film from a lot of the more male-oriented action films or buddy films that came before or or that have come after.

Ron 1:05:36

I feel like that was one ending, and you could have ended the film there, and we don't really know what happens to Stevens. We can see him drive away with the money, whatever, but we do get something a little satisfying. I was satisf I was satisfied with what comes next that months later Stevens is is coerced into testifying in favor of the DEA because they're threatening to punish Betty, who is his love interest, and he comes up with a different plan with his semantics.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:02

He signed an agreement that he would in no ways disparage the correct operation, which he he did not disparage it. He did articulate that he wished he could have gone further. That's when the videotape comes out, and I think as I write about it in 1992, to have a film where a videotape exonerates a black man, it's kind of it's it's yeah, yeah, it's kind of. special. I will I also I have to shout out Isa Club, the the criterion producer I worked with, because he's the one who caught that one of the congressmen, his name is Ojan Bazelli, which is a shout out to the cinematographer of Deep Cover.

Ron 1:06:47

Very cool. I love those I love those fantasies and Easter eggs.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:50

But to have this kind of again a that justice is served, which is a part of I think the wonderful fantasy of the Yeah and you know what I failed to mention whenever they pull up to the docks, gophers with them.

unknown 1:07:03

Yeah.

Ron 1:07:04

And it it's a blink and you miss it, or he's holding a one of those big ass camp quarters from the early 50s. Yeah, and they send him away and you don't hear anything about it again until they get to the courtroom and they're playing this this tape of what's going on with you know they're exposing Guzman and basically ends that whole idea of the US government having somebody in place where they want in a government in a foreign country.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:26

I mean it's definitely a moment of also thinking about I suppose it was Eisenhower who initially introduced the the the a kind of foreign policy panic around the possibility of communism spreading like dominoes which I think was was Reagan was definitely of that ilk in his concern for by any means necessary to quell communism in Latin America. So it's again the a film in which the government is actually the the kind of outrage when that videotape is played. And then of course of course Russell's John Hall's response is copies of the tape have been sent to all of the major news now tell me that's not an incredibly satisfying end.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

It's incredibly satisfying it's awesome.

Ron 1:08:13

It's incredibly satisfying yeah as a as a as opposed to the the crane shop pulling away from one man cradling another making jokes.

SPEAKER_11 1:08:22

That's way more satisfying it's very very satisfying it's certainly more satisfying than what happened to Gary Webb in the wake of publishing his stories in the San Jose Mercury. It's it's a kind of fantastical vindication.

Ron 1:08:36

That's the word that's the word you feel you you you feel that vindication along with this character. Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:08:42

Yeah.

Ron 1:08:42

Because you've been along on this ride with him the whole way from whenever he was a kid to to now.

SPEAKER_11 1:08:47

Justice has now been served.

Ron 1:08:48

And we get one final or I guess maybe the second to last little bit of satisfaction when he punches Carver and then has a callback to the line that got him the job in the in the first place.

SPEAKER_11 1:08:58

Which is uh yeah it's very satisfying you know Carver's a small man but yeah it doesn't mean he can't be punched um small men can be punched too yes I mean every short king should be punched once in their lifetime I think is the is the moral of that scene maybe maybe that'll be the tagline for this episode every short king should be punched at least once every short king you know you gotta knock those short kings around so he walks away with $11 million in drug money.

Ron 1:09:31

Yep and not really clear what he's going to do with it. We also see that the neighbor boy that was across the hall from him is in tow and he ends the film as neither a cop nor a nor a dealer. He's yeah you know how how does how does that final voiceover leaving us in ambiguity saying you know what would you do?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:51

We took 11 million in drug profits out of the van the money doesn't know where it comes from but I do. If I keep it I'm a criminal if I give it to the government I'm a fool. If I try and do some good with it maybe it just makes things worse. Either way I'll probably just wind up getting myself in more trouble. It's an impossible choice but in a way we all have to make it what would you do how does that work for you love it I love it I love it.

SPEAKER_11 1:10:33

It's not neat it's not it not everything has been resolved. Not uh now you're making me read my shit sorry I almost I feel bad now yeah yeah I'm like oh yeah I did write that what would you do? There is a more obvious point to be made about this moment of closure and reunification. The noir protagonist lives this reconstituted character is revealed to be neither dead a la sunset boulevard nor dying i.e double indemnity or d or or DOA also in contrast to the Hood film the black protagonist survives in the end. Will he be a black avenger charged with saving a crackaddle generation of the unborn? Will he become Superfly, a missionary man or a crusader? Can he be the cultural nationalist ethos of an organic intellectual met with a talented tenth? I'm a black star. I'm not a gangster. Yeah I mean it was to me there was like I was really thrilled by thinking about all these possibilities that the film kind of leaves open. I mean of course I was also mourning the death of David Bowie at the end there, but it's all it's all a part of the process. So when it comes to black protagonists, they are often framed in such definitive ways where there's seemingly a clear moral outcome or answer that's provided. I'm just relieved when I I really don't know what the hell he's going to do. And the film does not give me a sense of what the hell's going to happen to him.

Ron 1:12:00

So we close every episode where the guests get the chance to give their answer to why this film. So why deep cover? Why does it deserve its place in the Criterion Collection?

SPEAKER_11 1:12:08

One of the things that I've always appreciated and will continue to appreciate about the Criterion Collection is that it was often an opportunity to discover. And often the nature of that discovery is caught up in a kind of high is is sometimes it's caught up in this sense of a film's obscurity it's it's it's it's aesthetic loftiness it's it's art cinema aspirations and sometimes it's just a really wonderful American film that isn't thought enough about. So for me the my experience with deep cover is is very particular. When I graduated from college I I graduated from Morehouse college with a DA in English and the thought that I was going to write the great American novel so I went to Japan and taught English for two years. I was in a small little town called Nejime in in the prefecture of Kagoshima and nearby was a video store that had an exceptionally limited selection of English language films. And one of those films was Deep Cover. So in my two years of uh living and and and thriving in Japan I watched deep cover way too much and of of being in a similar situation if I had known that I'd be if it I don't think I would choose another film to be stuck in a small village in Japan with to watch over and over again and constantly find something new. It's not a perfect film but it's a film that I think is quite compelling and challenging us in terms of thinking about genre, of thinking of our expectations of of of race and representation and also of understanding there was a great moment in the 90s with Noir films and I I think Deep Cover should always be a part of that consideration.

Ron 1:14:06

Thank you again to Michael B. Gillespie for taking the time to speak with me about Deep Cover. If you'd like to support the show for as little as three dollars a month you can do so by selecting the support the show link in the episode description. You can follow the podcast on Instagram for updates and check out whythisfilm.com for additional resources. Next time I'll be joined by Pamela Hutchinson to discuss the Red Shoes. Thanks again for listening please be sure to follow share and keep an eye out for the next episode