Being Real: Leadership, Trust, and Investing in People

In this episode of Leadership Quotient, Lindsay Guzowski, CEO of The Crucible, speaks with Uzair Bawany, CEO at Oii.ai, about leadership, entrepreneurial mindset, and why great businesses are ultimately built around people. Drawing from a career spanning executive search, fintech, and AI-driven supply chain innovation, Uzair shares lessons on hiring for entrepreneurial thinking, building cultures rooted in transparency and trust, and helping people operate at their highest potential. The conversation explores why ideas account for only a small portion of success compared to execution, how strong leaders create environments where teams can thrive, and why empathy and listening remain undervalued leadership skills. Uzair also discusses the evolving role of AI in organizations, including the rise of digital employees and why technology should augment human capability rather than replace it. Throughout the discussion, he emphasizes a simple but powerful leadership principle: invest your time in your people, because they are the true drivers of value creation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Leadership Quotient, a podcast by The Crucible where we explore how leadership teams in investor-backed companies are built, aligned, and scaled for impact. I'm your host, Lindsay Gazowski, and in each episode, we'll talk with the people shaping value behind the scenes, from operating partners to investors to advisors to C-suite executives about what it really takes to drive performance through leadership. On today's episode of the Leadership Quotient Podcast, I chat with Uzair Bawani, CEO at OII.ai about investing in your people, ideas only accounting for 10% of success, and the importance of being real.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Sure. So, I mean, I'll start by saying after university and up to university, I always wanted to be a banker. And I thought that was my future. I was very interested in economics and finance. Having worked in banking after university, I realized I didn't want to be a banker. And my first opportunity when I left was this executive search firm, which I ended up ended up buying and doing an MBA and owning and growing. And I think for me, the most important part is whether it's executive search, whether it's trade finance and what we're doing now in working capital, it's all about how you run business. I mean, even when I was running magazine, it's about running business. That's what really kind of motivates me is getting to actually creating environments where people can flourish and understanding what makes people tick, which I think is the most important thing. As working in executive search really helped me to understand people, I think. And it's funny, I kind of gravitate. Even at my previous company that I founded and we got out of series B, everyone used to come to me and say, Can you can you just meet this guy at the end? Can you just give us a view on the leadership guy? So they were always always always the backstop of you, you can we have a can you just do a check on them? And and you know, there's this whole concept, right? Within first five minutes, you know if somebody's right or not. Um, I would always try and keep an open mind when I meet people and try and understand what makes them tick. Um, so I guess that's naturally had a slant towards people, and that's actually put me in good stead for being a being kind of a leader in a business. It's about people, every business is about people. And I'll just say that you know, when I was running this executive search firm, a lot of the stuff we did was in trade finance. And having interviewed lots of people, I realized that why is there a big gap in this? Everyone is doing everything manually and there's an automated world we're living in. And that's really what spurred me to start looking at opportunity. And then I raised some money and I, you know, employee number one, and I eventually kind of you know built that business to now. I sit on the board of three 300-man company, and I company called TradeStream that I sit on the board of, and um, you know, that's been growing. There's lots of investment gone into that, and it's been building out. So I think the most important thing is the people asset and creating an environment for that, and and always keeping an open mind opportunities, right? I mean, you know, some things just knock you in the head when it's like everyone's telling you the same thing. The universe is saying there is a problem here, we need to deal with it. And how do you go about doing that? So uh, so yeah, that's kind of the story. And here at OII, which I'm really excited about, it's it's actually using, it's actually we've built technology to solve a problem rather than just building technology and trying to find a solution. It's very purpose-built for a very complex situation, which is very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

I think that last point is absolutely critical in these spaces because you see a lot of people with great ideas that are ideas about the technology or about what can I do with this fun thing, as opposed to saying, what's the pain point? What is the problem out there or what is missing in the market? And then addressing that with the fun, cool technologies that present.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Well, it's funny. I was at a Gartner event last week, and you know, they were saying that, you know, the idea is only 10% of success. Everyone thinks that's the magic, you need the brilliant idea. But actually, even brilliant ideas don't work without execution and proper planning. And, you know, my current, my co-founder, who I who I've kind of running this business with, Bob Rogers, who's my chief product and tech officer, he's a PhD physicist from Harvard who did his PhD on using digital twins to solve supermassive black holes in other galaxies. So he's brought that huge complexity into supply chain, which is what we do. But by his own admissions, he said, just give me technology. I don't want to run a business, I want to run technology. So actually, what is really important is people understanding where their strengths lie. This is not, this is not a good or a bad thing. Everyone's got, I haven't got a clue about how he how he programs in whatever he whatever he uses in Python. So he builds the tech stack, but there's a trust amongst each other that he does his bit and I do my bit. And I think too many people get caught up with wanting to be, I want to be this, I want to run this. So you should run what you're good at. And as a team, you all benefit from that. And you know, what we've built, OI, is a really good, I'd like to believe a really good example where you give people the room to develop and grow. And my implementation head runs his business, no one interferes. I'm here to support if he needs it, and I create the environment and the tools for him to do it. Same with Bob, same with our sales team. I'm always available. I don't ask anything, any anyone to do anything that I can't do myself or can implement. And we have some very important values in the company around really important to be completely transparent on everything we do. And I know that's very corny, but genuinely it is. Say what you do. So if I commit to something, I make sure I do it. Everyone has that ethos within them, and that's very important. And we innovate with purpose to your point in the last one. We don't just innovate, we innovate with purpose and meaning. And those are three very important values that we judge people on, we interview people on, we assess people on.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Speaking of assessing, so when you think about helping people identify their strengths or understanding whether they're going to be a good fit, how do you go through that process in what sounds like a high growth, highly technical construct?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question. And you know, my background probably helps me a little bit, and I cheat a little bit because I've kind of got a feel for people. But but obviously, you know, you look at someone's background and the the story doesn't lie. If they've worked at big organizations, it's just hard for them to adapt. And I would be, I'm not saying I wouldn't take them, and of course we've got people from very large companies, but you need people who've got the entrepreneurial mindset to work in in an organization like ours, people who have, I mean, we've just hired two guys from a very large FMCG business, but they one of them had a side hustle where he was he was building a tech business on the side, which didn't work, but he has that, he had that in him that he wanted to do something. And those kind of things are really good for me, indicators as someone who's got that mindset of being more entrepreneurial. Also, I think you know, we have a very particular process on how we do things. So you go through two rounds of interviews, and then there's always a panel interview with four or five leaders and they present. Um, and the quality of that presentation, you see have they done the effort, have they made the research, do they understand our value, do they understand our proposition? You that that get kind of gives quite a bit into the individual's psyche and whether they're really focused on or is this just a job and they want to do it. And we don't want people who just want a job, we want people who really want to make a difference to the world. We're a 35-man company, actually, 33 and four digital employees. Um, we've actually named them. We have Mark, Omar, Clive, and um Steve, who are our pre-sales operations and marketing people. And they have their own email address, their agents, they've been trained by us, and we we use them as part of our process. And we we want to scale through technology as well. But in a small company like ours, people have to want to really see what we're doing and get excited because what we're doing is something that I think is groundbreaking. And we need people who who really subscribe to that journey in view and believe in it really.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

And it sounds like there's a lot of qualitative information, you know. Even back when you were in executive search, how did you understand the quantitative side of what people are good at? I I think one of the things, and the reason I'm asking this question is a lot of times people like to think they're good at things because they assume that's what's valued, as opposed to actually being good at them or understanding what where their best and highest use might be.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah. Well, I think I think there's there's two really simple answers to that. First of all, is the fact that you know you leave it to the people who are employing them, your team members, to make that assessment because they would have the quality of experience. So you trust the people to do that. And I would always get the hiring manager to make the decision. I will support, give my view, but ultimately they always make the decision, not me. It's not about me, it's about the team. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is we we we do have a bunch of questions and assessments when we need to of people that are reasonably good or how they how they check out. And and finally, and I'm not saying we make we don't make mistakes, but at the end of the day, if they don't deliver, then we immediately think they're not the right guy for us, and we'll cut our losses when we need to as quick as possible rather than delay. We'll give them every opportunity to succeed, but if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, right? So you you accept the fact that you're not going to get every single every single hiring decision right. Um, and you just and and and also, you know, one of the things we always try and do is where we can check them out with people we know or someone, you know, we're all in our 40s and 50s, we have networks, and normally there's someone who knows somebody who can give us some view on them. So where we can at least just sort of get some kind of uh read on it if we can. That'll make sense. And on the qualitative side, sorry, I should also say when you talk about technology. I mean, in Bob, you've got a brain who will ask five questions and you'll know in 20 seconds if they can answer any of those questions and if it's the right answer or not. And we have another guy who's one of Bob's team members, who's Bob says is even brighter than him, who can read 20 lines of codes in one minute and memorize it, who will ask four questions. And if that guy does, and we've we've just hired someone in our AI engineering team. We interviewed six people, five of them couldn't answer his questions, one did, and he's like, he's the guy. So it's you know, we're quite binary about some of those things as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Good. It's talking about solving a problem. The reason we started the Crucible was because we were seeing that there were too many groups out there that were trying to evaluate people just on residents. And especially in the executive search space, it's well, they've done this and this and this, and they were successful with this other fund that doesn't necessarily function like ours, but is a fund or other components without looking at to your earlier point, what makes them tick. And so Oh, go ahead, please.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

I was gonna say sometimes it's not even about the ability, it's about the environment. I mean, a trade stream, we hired quite a bunch of quite a lot of bankers in the past who had worked in trade finance, but the the the the you know, they're used to kind of a one-year sales cycle, lots of relationships. But this is we need something done in three months and we need to move quickly. And sometimes it's not that they can't do it, but they just have a different mindset. And I think often it's not even about the quality of ability or even their ability, it's about the ability in the environment they're working in. And understanding that environment and whether they can adapt or not is actually the big challenge. And that's where I think as an executive search person, it's thinking about can they fit into that environment? They can do the job, can they fit into that environment and be successful in the time they want it to be? That's always a challenge that you have to try and understand. And that's why I said things like he did a side hustle doing something else. It's kind of this is a guy who's itching to wanting to do something a bit different, a bit more, and he's the kind of person you want in the team.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yeah, it's it's very difficult to teach an entrepreneurial mindset. It's also, you know, you talked a little bit about being completely transparent internally. That's also something that sense of authenticity is almost impossible to teach. People can be more and less aware of it, but it's not something that a lot of people are able to lead with if that's not inherent to who they are.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

It's funny you say that. It's not even about um the transparency about whether they know, it's actually there's a political angle that comes in, right? I mean, I I always tell people, you know, on any call at any time, if I've said something that's not right, tell me. And I'll tell you. This is not about we can't, we must help each other to do better. It's not about I know more than you. Everyone's got their own skills, and and we'll listen to each other and we'll because we all got the same goal. I think if everyone's working the same way, the other point I didn't mention, which I should have said, is that background is very important, right? So you talk entrepreneur, you know, my father used to import skins from Italy and he used to import them from Italy and then sell them to the leather trade and the manufacturers. So dinner tables were always about trade finance and documents. And I've even gone and documented, export documents, and helped him with uh with ships coming in and and consigning goods. So that entrepreneurial mindset was there on the dining table from age seven, you know, and I think that also helps to kind of make you feel like this is how and it's funny, all my my two other brothers are also running businesses, right? None of them, I mean, one of we one worked for Bank of America, the other one worked for they all left banking like me and all went into into running the running business and being a master of their own destiny. And I think that comes if if you come from a background where every your father and grandfather and uncle were all bankers and you've come as a bank, it becomes harder because you don't appreciate the nuances, right? Of of what this is. And having the entrepreneur, we're literally, you know, we didn't make the money on this or we lost the deal. We we knew everything was was always talked about on the on the table at dinner. And I think having that makes you more aware. And things that come naturally to me, people say, How do you well kind of just know that because that's what we've always done? But some people, I appreciate, have not had that exposure, so don't feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point because I I don't think people take into account enough the milieu in which we were raised, formed, very important, developed. Um that speaks to my sociologist's heart.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah, but it is I I really believe that. I mean, I you know, there are people I know who run businesses with bankers, they still don't get how to run business in the way in the way it should do because they've never come from that. It's not it's not criticism, it's just they've never been exposed in that way.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

So let's get a little more specific about some of the traits that you saw when you were in executive search that made for really amazing leaders that may not be obvious from a resume or from a background.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Yeah. I mean, I think you know, people who have passion in what they're trying to achieve, who have a lot of belief, uh self-confidence and belief. Um, people I I think the other the other, I always joke about this to my team. I say, but there's a reason God gave you um two ears and one mouth is because you have to listen more and people don't listen enough. And I think that that is a that that that desire, that empathy. I rarely see real empathy in salespeople, in leaders who really understand how the other person, when you talk to them, when you communicate with them, when you interact with them, how do you think they really feel? It's and and I don't think we think enough of that. And even I don't, you know, when sometimes I my tone when I'm upset or angry or whatever, it's it comes across as being, and I'm like, but the poor guy's doing his best. We should absolutely understand that and give them every chance to succeed. And then if they don't succeed, well, we've we've done our bit to help them. So I think there's an element of communication, listening, having empathy, those are skills, soft skills that I think I like to see in leaders. Um, and I don't see enough of that, to be honest with you. There's ego tends to take over in a lot of places, and uh it becomes very hard for people, even if they say they're listening, often they're not. And actually, listening and understanding and making decisions based on team decisions is very important. And I and I understand there's a balance because you're a leader, so you've got to make the call. Uh, but I think you've got to listen and hear and accept that you know you're not always gonna be right. And I I and I'm the first in them to say, I'm not, I'm not the one who's gonna be making the decision here. We're all, and you guys have to make that decision, not me. You're the expert on tech or whatever it is. Why I'll give you my view, but ultimately that is just to be made by you, right? Because you're the expert. That's why you're here with us, right? So it's important to think that way.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, that's that's really interesting. Most of our work is in the private equity and venture capital space on our side. And empathy is one of the critical elements we test for, but it's something completely undervalued. And my argument is you can't understand your customers, your team, or your stakeholders if you don't have strong levels of empathy, because what you think is important is not necessarily going to resonate, nor might it be what's actually important.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

You know, I there was a guy who recently became this is a couple of years ago, he became the CEO of this business. And I said to him, I said, just remember, as the CEO, you work for them, they don't work for you. If you can take that approach, you'll do well. It's not about what you want, it's about helping them to get what they want and supporting them to get what they want. And I see too many CEOs who spend all their time trying to run the whole business rather than employing really strong people and saying, You're gonna be my next person, one of you are gonna run my, are gonna take my job, but I'm gonna support you. And and all the emphasis, my entire is on my diary reports, making sure they're happy, they're supported, and they're getting what they want, and I'm helping them with any problems they have. That's what a CEO's focus should be. Out to the market and supporting the team under them, not trying to be everything to everyone, which is how I think a lot of people tend to think, which is, in my view, completely the wrong way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

So, what are some of the other attributes or pitfalls that you see leaders making that hamper their ability to lead great companies?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

I think getting too too stuck in the weeds is one. Yeah. I think you've got to focus on the big the big vision and the broader picture and trust your team. Trust is a really important one, trusting the people in your team, genuinely trusting rather than thinking, what are they gonna? I don't I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't have the confidence in their ability. So trust is very important. And sometimes you know what, they're not gonna do it as you want, or it may not be perfect, but actually they've learned from it and you've trusted them, and they'll get better and better rather than just saying, I'm gonna do it my way. Um, so I think that that is very important. Trust, communication, and support. I think they're critical parts for anyone who wants to lead a team and not getting too stuck into detail, not thinking too much about things that don't always go right. Um, and also what's very important, and I don't see enough of this, is really learning from mistakes. People don't learn from mistakes. They repeatedly make the mistakes, they repeatedly scream, or they repeating actually, there should be some self-respection, self-self-inter into review and saying, what did I do wrong? Why did it go wrong? How could I have helped them better? How can I make sure I help them next time get better? There's no retrospective view in terms of looking at yourself in a reflection saying, what could I have done differently? It's always very easy to blame someone, but actually looking at what you've done wrong or how you could have made things better is a much better way to sort of develop and improve because it's not you're not going to win every deal, you're not gonna, you're not gonna keep every person, you're not gonna keep everyone, but it's about learning from that. And I think that learning is something that people tend to struggle with. They go into that one mode and that's just the way, and sometimes that's important, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

It's clear that you have an incredible self-awareness and commitment to being a supportive leader. Where did you develop those skills?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

I think it comes from my business background as well. I mean, interviewing so many people in the past where you've heard and you think, why did you say that? Why could you do it? Why wouldn't you? And you kind of realize that all you you learn from all the things they've done. That's the first thing. The other thing is, you know, if you realize people really are your biggest, and and genuinely, I say this with all my heart. The most important thing in my business is my not the tech, not the patents we have. I mean, it's all important, but it's the people that make all that happen. If you genuinely really believe that is the case, I think you will succeed because the people around you will be there, you know, and and and and and wish you well and give you good karma and and achieve something. But I think that's really important is that you really believe in the people and the people see that you believe in them. Because I mean, I, you know, there's a guy who's now running my one of my client implementation team, and I see him, he thrives in the environment. I mean, he just the guy's just like, I mean, I he's actually surpassed my expectations of what I was expecting. When he listens this, he'll probably know who he is now. But I just say, yeah, it's been phenomenal. Why I mean I've been so impressed with what he's done and the stuff he sends me, the output and the way he leads client calls, it makes me proud. I'm like, wow, this is amazing. So I think if you give people that opportunity to thrive. And focus on, as you said right at the beginning, what they're good at, what they enjoy, and make sure they enjoy it, right? I mean, it's really important that you enjoy it. You've got to create a culture of enjoy. I mean, it's work, and I love what I do because I'm running a business and that's what I love doing. But people genuinely love, you know, it's it's um, you know, uh we've got a marketing lady and we had a call a few weeks ago. And it was a Sunday night. I said I told her, I said, look, don't worry, I'll take the call on Sunday. And she says, No way, I'm not missing out. I'll get FOMO if I don't. And I'm like, but it's only a Sunday call with this too. She goes, I'm gonna be on that call. And I didn't force them, I don't force anyone, I don't want anyone to work weekends, but actually most people do work. Often I'm speaking on Sunday to people, but it's because they enjoy it, it's because they actually really thrive and are happy and not because they're forced to do it. And it's it's actually that's those are the kind of signs and things you see that make you realize that you're creating a culture where people can be happy, enjoy, and be positive about what and and and believe in what they're doing. And obviously, incentive-wise, they're all everyone I've made sure people are well looked at from an options point of view, so that if we are successful, I don't think people do it for money, but it certainly helps that they've got those options and they can feel part of the skin in the game or you know, part of the success of the business, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

That's fantastic. Um what in closing, I'm curious about your digital employees. And so in this you know, new world of digital employees and real employees and people using uh hybrid technologies and the ability to use AI to improve supply chain operations, etc. Um How do you see the skills needed for leaders and for managers changing as this world continues to build and unfold?

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Uh it's a question that's asked a lot, and it's an it's a it's it's an ever-evolving answer to that. Um, I mean, you know, I was having a I was speaking to a very senior leader in a big consulting business, and and and the question was, well, we don't need to have, we we need half the number of employees now because we've got technology developing a lot of that. And I'm like, well, that's great, but who's gonna take your job in 10 years' time because you haven't got the train, the people coming through. And it kind of stumped to me, so well, well, what's gonna happen, right? Because you're gonna have less people. Actually, arguably, you know, you'll have a lot of people that will be lying around and doing overpaid or underperforming. So I said, how how do you deal with that? And he didn't he didn't have an answer for that. But but I I think that the the point is that you know technology today, and I'm very fortunate we have in Bob our our founder and and chief product tech, obviously, an absolute genius of a man who uh who's he wrote his first book on AI in '92 when I was still at college, and he's writing about AI, you know what AI was. Um, and you always know man's really understands AI when they describe technology without using the word AI. And the first time he talked about it, I'm like, well, where's the? Because this is all AI, Uzi. I'm like, oh, okay. Because he it was like he just doesn't even explain what what what what the value is. But to answer your question, I think if it needs to be used to supplement and support and make life easier for the people around you rather than substitute. It does mean, for example, our Steve, who's our pre-sales agent employee, he today will do a lot of the work that I would have hired two grads to do my pre-sales for my sales team. So he is doing that job, and but the intelligence is even better than any grad. So actually, what it means is that my sales team are armed with really, really good information when they meet a when they meet a client. Now, is that a good use of technology? I think it's a really good use of technology. But when you talk about replacements for the sake of replacements, which you know, there are operations where people are just reducing it for cost and not anything else, you get a lot of hallucination. You get a lot of so Steve has got his own mailbox. He was pitched by a recruitment business as an employee because he had Steve at at at uh at uh OII.oI AI. So you've got probably an agent emailing another agent trying to pitch business, and maybe that's going too far, right? But and but if you talk to Garner in that meeting I had with him, they said by 2030 agents will be selling to agents and you won't be people won't even be in the loop. So who knows what's going to happen. I mean, it's ever-evolving world.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Well, you've got to make sure that Steve doesn't actually get recruited out.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

That's a security issue, which brings a whole different subject. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Good. Any any last words for listeners on No, I think you know life should be kept simple.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

I'm a big one into simplicity, right? Make things really simple, dumb it down and just make it as high level and simple as possible. And and what I think is really important for anybody who works in anywhere, it's subscribing to the view and the ethos and creating the culture for that. You know, we are we don't just, you know, do things for the sake of it, we do it because it means something to people. We have a monthly all hands call, and that all hands call is 25 minutes presentation and 30 minutes ask any questions about anything to anyone. And it's like it's just keeping everything open, keeping as real as we can, keeping everyone updated, and getting people to believe in the mission and the and now it's easy when you're 30, 40 people and much harder when you're 250 people. I get it, but you still have to create that environment where people see and say, I can call the CEO, I can call this person, I can deal with this. And I think the other key point for any leaders today is invest in your people and time, not the whole business. You've got five diary reports, seven hours, just spend your time. Your life should be your job as the CEO is how can I make their lives easier? That's all you should focus on. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen, but if that's what they did, then I think they'd get a lot more value in the business.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

And that wraps up another inspiring episode of Leadership Quotient. I appreciate you, Zair, for contributing a clear, experience-backed perspective to the conversation. To our listeners, if you found this conversation valuable, be sure to subscribe to Leadership Quotient wherever you get your podcasts. You can also learn more about the Crucible and how we're helping investor-backed companies align leadership teams for scale at thecrucible.com. We'll see you next time for more real conversations on leadership, talent, and value creation.