SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to Lambs and Company, a podcast about life. We will feature guests and friends on the podcast to have quality conversations and wonderful fellowship. We hope you will join us. It's a life worth living and it's a life worth giving.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Welcome to another Lambs and Company. And um we've done a part one and and we're just gonna kind of pick up where we left off. And I want to ask uh I'm gonna do two things in this session. One, I want to pick back up with uh uh Judge Russo, and you know one of the things we kind of wrapped up with in the first session was the difficulty that you had when you had to um preside over a death penalty case and the effects that personally had on your life and all. But Tommy, how do you balance mercy and justice into your decisions? And how does your faith and your beliefs impact how you do that?

SPEAKER_04 1:24

It's a good question. It it I don't know that there's a single thing that that uh drives that. I if I could, um I I want to just if you don't mind, I've written down two verses of scripture that that really moved in my heart and and when I became uh a circuit court judge and had to make the decisions. Um the first one because well the first one's out of Psalms. It's it's it's uh Psalm 119, uh verse 165 through 168. And and there in scripture it says, Great peace have those who love your law, and nothing causes them to stumble.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

Lord, I hope for your salvation and I do your commandments. My soul keeps your testimonies and I love them exceedingly. I keep your precepts and your testimonies, for all my ways are before you. And then in Proverbs verse 3, verse uh three through seven, it says, Let not mercy and truth forsake you. Bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart, and so find favor and high esteem in the sight of God and man. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths. Do not be wise in your own eyes, fear the Lord and depart from evil. Every day when I became a circuit court judge, I started every day asking God for guidance and for wisdom in the task that lay ahead of me that day. I did not know always what was going to be coming, but I did know that I didn't want to lean on my own understanding. I studied the law for years, um, and I think I understood the laws of our land, but I wanted the laws of heaven to guide my decision making. And so every time, and the the hardest part of the job, I think, without question, was the criminal side. Uh the circuit court in South Carolina handles both the civil as well as the criminal side. Um and you are you you have guidance in the law. You have there are usually sentencing ranges and and and things of that nature. Um but I didn't want to rely on my own understanding. And so I began every day with with that prayer and my request to the Lord to whatever was on whatever was on the plate that day, whatever was coming, and I didn't know what it was, but I just asked that you know, God, please um don't allow me to uh rest on my own understanding, but give me the wisdom. And and so that was the beginning of every day. But there were many times when something actually did hit me, and it was something that was very uh difficult. Uh that's the beauty of being the when you're the circuit court judge, you you have control over the courtroom, you know. When I was practicing law, if if I really needed a moment to regain my focus and and look at something, I could ask the court for a recess, but I may or may not get it. But when you when you're the judge, you get any recess you want. So, you know, if something would hit me and it was something that was uh heavy, I'd say, folks, we're gonna take a short recess. And I was able to go back into chambers. Um, and oftentimes, you know, obviously went back with my law clerk and we discussed things, but many times I'd take that recess and I'd go back into my office, close the door, and just pray.

unknown 6:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Um and so I hope that all the decisions I made were were appropriate. I I certainly um am not perfect and and I know I made mistakes uh throughout my time, but um I certainly didn't want to rest on my own understanding. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Well, I I uh listen, I want to thank you for the way that you represented the 12th district. I want to thank you for the way that um as a brother in Christ you you've walked, um even what you read out of Psalm 119, um, that whole psalm basically, if people didn't read anything else and they just read Psalm 119, it'd give them great influence, great instruction, and and remind us that we're not God, you know, we're we're not the Lord. He is, and we're not, you know. And but I appreciate the fact that you um your transparency of your dependence upon the Lord's uh influence into your life and decisions you were making. And for the fact that uh I I know that you were very diligent in researching things and studying things about different cases, and um you know, and I I know that uh for a number of reasons, but um I I just I think that the fact that you would take a recess to go back into pray. And I know there were a few times I actually over the years got a text and I didn't know what you were in the middle of, but you would just say, hey, could you join me in prayer? I've got a very uh I've got a very important decision I'm having to make. And could you just take a minute and join me in prayer? And you know, that says a lot to me about a person and what their what their core is and what their center is. And um, you know, the book of Colossians is really a book that a lot of people, and and Marty can help us with this with his background, but the book of Colossians is a book that was written because of Gnosticism. And, you know, Gnosticism in that day was about having superior knowledge and superior wisdom, and and it was kind of mixed with a lot of different things, and it had a lot of different rules and regulations. But what it missed was the supremacy of Christ. And when when Paul was writing that, he was trying to let them know this might be important, this might be important, this might be important, but the supremacy of Christ is really the thing that's got to be supreme over my holidays, my holy days, my everyday. You know what I'm saying? And it's like the work that I'm doing, I can't do it just because I want y'all to be impressed. The work I'm doing, I need to do it because it says unto the Lord, you know, the way that I treat people, the way that I act, and everything, you know, no matter what level of life that we may be in. But I was thinking of something as you were talking from a judicial standpoint, and I was thinking Artie, maybe you could go back, but um I think in Exodus, if I'm not mistaken, Exodus chapter 13 and maybe verse 9 or 10, uh the when Moses was giving the word to Israel when they were coming out, getting ready to come out of Egypt, the thing that was highlighted was the importance of God's law. And the word law there is Torah.

unknown 10:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

It's Torah in the Hebrew, I believe. And so can you explain or can you maybe give us a a capsule? I I I know that's a big subject, but it it yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

It in in the Old Testament, the the general concept of law, the the Torah, is is sort of um the fancy word they use is apodictic law. It's is sort of this one time applies to everything, like the Ten Commandments that we see, which is a sort of this universal thing, that there's not really any whole lot of leeway in that. And then there's the there's case law. I think they call it casewistic or something like that. I don't remember the fancy word. Uh that uh that all of those examples, if a man does so and so, this is what you need to do. And we have both in in the American system. Uh just in in passing, it just delights my heart to have men like you that were that were on the bench here and and still serve in some way, because I I lived out of the country for 13 years in a different system. You know, the American system is adversarial where you've got uh the burden of proof on the state, the uh client is considered innocent till proven guilty, and you can have a jury trial. Nicaragua, totally different. It is an inquisitorial system where there's only a judge and the burden of proof is on you. You guilty. That's what they decide. The policeman prove you're innocent. Yes, and they have they have preciun preventiva, meaning they throw you in jail. Generally they throw you in jail, beat you up, and then take you to court. But if you're an American, they won't beat you up, they'll just throw you in jail. But you you gotta prove that you're innocent, and the corruption of the system is just off the chart. It yet we uh in our in our uh ministry, we had property. We you know, we had schools, we had some, we had a farm, had orphanages, church property, all this stuff around the country. And literally not a single piece of property we own wasn't challenged. Somebody would find a lawyer on the corner, he'd drop some paperwork, they'd go to a judge and say, This is my property, it's not yours. And we had constantly, just constantly. I mean, it's nonsense. There's nothing to it, it didn't matter. Just make it up. Well, none of it was true, they just made stuff up, and and we would have to go to court, and no one would ever make a decision. You know, so it would just go back and forth, back and forth. That this judge is oh, we're gonna see some more. And and the lawyers made a lot of money. Yeah, so I think it was kind of a racket. Yeah, but the judges just so you just never knew. And if you if you got to the judge first and could bribe him or her, some ladies, then maybe you you would do that. But I see, I think the scariest thing I watched while I was out of the country looking at the United States was the horrible corruption that was creeping into our system. Because I started seeing some of the uh law enforcement acting in similar ways to third world stuff that I was dealing with. And and not only that, just and of course, recently you've seen this with all of the judges and all that was there. And uh it's just scary. With when there's when there's no one to call, somebody's breaking in your house, because that's what it is with the cops, you don't want to call the cops because you never knew what they're what side they were gonna be on. They may have been the ones that had the guy breaking in your house. They were all in on stuff. I mean, it was awful. And then then if you did go into the justice system, you had no idea where how it was gonna go. So you'd try to find well. I mean, we had a couple of really good lawyers that were with church, they knew they knew the game. And I mean, it was just and we'd pay them. And and they'd said, oh, don't worry about that. We'll do that always, you know, and and I so but it was a it was just a tough way to live. And you know, when when I started seeing that kind of thing happening, some of these corrupt folks we seem to have in the system now that just seem to do stuff out of randomness or whatever, uh, it's just scary. And and you know, we we really don't want to live that way in the United States. And you know, and and even this this lady that wanted to get you in, I hope she's getting a lot of others in, just all across the country. And because the system is no better than you. You know, whoever whoever is the guy, and well, whether the jury and the lawyers and whatever, but but the it it that's and that that is an old testament concept that you've got a righteous judge. That the the very thing you had in Isaiah. This and and mishpat is the because there's the word the word for commandment is mitzvah, and it sort of applies to the idea of these universal laws. And the other concept is justice, it's mishpat. But the root of that word is judge, it is shafat, is to judge something and to look at it. And it's it's the same Chuck Colson used to always say, you know, anytime you have rules, anytime you got a system, anytime you have laws, you always have to answer one question says who? You know, where did the law come from? You know, and for Christians, we believe the law comes from God, and that's the root of our justice system, and and so much, even the roots of English common law and just all that system is here. But uh if you take that away, if the culture becomes secular, then there's no answer to says who. It it's like it could be anything you want, you know. It's sort of like the accountant when he does your accounting. You know, two and two is four, but what do you want it to be? You know, because they could make it add up to anything. And and uh uh it it is a scary place to be. So I I I just pray that as a nation we we get back to just just to be able to answer that question says who and that important aspect.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

When I when when I was on the bench and we'd have terms of court, um, whether it was civil or criminal, we'd have a jury panel come in. People of you know, you get your jury summons, so you have to show up. And we usually you know, we would usually summons, we we probably summons about 170, 180 people for the hopes of getting because people get excused for various reasons. Uh, but you usually end up with anywhere from 75 to 80, 100 people um there, and you qualify the jury panel before you start the term of court. And I used to tell uh my every time we had a jury there, because that that's the public, this is an opportunity you have. And I would tell every time we tell them this system of justice that we have in this country, yeah, it it is not perfect by any stretch. But you need to trust me when I tell you it is there's no better system on the planet than what we do here. And and I would tell them, and and and I'm was very serious about this, you'd be shocked. You know, you think about jury trials and the the press will only put in the media where there's issues and problems. But you would be shocked at the percentage of cases that are tried before a jury, that the jury gets it right. The vast majority of the cases that are tried, at least that my experience has been that the jury got it right.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

You know, my my understanding, and of course not my understanding uh about much of the constitutional law and even the law of the land, so to speak, a lot of that was handed down from Black's book of law. And then um I understand that Black came from England. I I think a lot of what he came to terms in developing in his in his literature and his his writings and everything, a lot of that, if you go back, you can actually find the origin of it in the book of Exodus, the book of Leviticus, the book of Deuteronomy. And in other words, the word of God was what influenced him to be able to develop and craft a lot of what he put in his law books. And, you know, I don't even I'm not even sure if a lot of attorneys today realize that a lot of the law they were using was actually God's law because they sure are not acting like it, you know what I'm saying? When they're handling it. And you know, but I know Paul told Timothy, he said, we need to rightly divide, we need to study to show ourselves approved, that we need to be workmen of God, that don't need to be ashamed, rightly dividing and rightly handling. And so, you know, a lot of people have learned to use the law for personal benefit or personal advantage and things of this nature, but I don't think that's the way that the Lord gave it. He intended for it to be something that brought justice, and it actually many times created an atmosphere that was healthy and was peaceful for people, you know, and and um you know, and today, unfortunately, with the media and other groups that have been actually organized in many ways to protest or to be loud, you know, in a lot of businesses and all that you hear the term, it's the squeaky wheel that gets degrees, you know. And so a lot of times people have learned certain uh patterns and certain behaviors and and and they've actually taken it on the road, so to speak, and they've actually put it in the public market and the public square. But yet, when you look at it, you know, when you look behind the curtain of what's really going on, it it is so far off of what is supposed to be happening. And yet people want it's almost like that people want people to go with public opinion more than actual truth and fact and reality. And that is leaning more into an emotional situation, and a lot of the emotion that people are operating in is very fragmented, very broken, and damaged. So that is definitely not that's one of the reasons why I think we need laws of the land. And um, and you know, even a lot of Christians don't understand, you know, a lot of Christians have this mentality. Well, that's old testament, and I'm a New Testament Christian. I'm thinking, well, yeah, but look what Paul said in Romans. He said, the law of the spirit of life in Christ. He called it a law. I said, there are actually things that God has given us, whether it's for practical and natural, or whether it's spiritual, that are actually governmental. They're laws, and you know what? They were meant to be embraced. And if you embrace it, it's a blessing. If you try to fight it and reject it, it can be painful. And it can cause pain and hurt. And there's a lot of there are a lot of areas today, I think, in our culture and society, both from God's word and from, you know, the the judicial side of things that we don't have to, shouldn't be going through. If people would just go back to the orange and go back to the basics and and you know, in the Isaiah 126 thing, if we could get righteous judges that are on the benches and things of this nature, that are not being governed by maybe I shouldn't even say this, but you know, they're not being governed by the, you know, a particular party, they're not being, you know, it's not a particular lobbyist group that is influencing them. You know, that's not what's swaying them. Other words, that are not swayable because of that. They they're aware of it, they know it's there, but they're not for sale. Other words, there's too many people seem to be for sale today.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

But if you look at if you look at our our government, and this is this is where the corruption creeps in, you you hear about one party wants to expand the court to get more folks to their political leaning on the on the bench, and the others, you know, want want to keep it, you know. You have you have liberals, you have conservatives, they want to get their folks on there because they want the court to go in a certain direction. When the truth is the court should be completely apolitical.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:43

And and and we're seeing that. We saw that this past week. That you know, the people who are so critical of the Supreme Court, and don't get me wrong, I'm they're not perfect. And and there's some of the justices that I disagree with, some of them that I that I agree with, but you know, right now the court is supposedly a right-leaning, conservative leaning body, and you have people who make accusations that all they do is the bidding of the president. Well, that didn't happen this week. And you know, that gives me great joy in in knowing that uh, you know, maybe those nine justices on the court, maybe they really are being apolitical. And maybe they're not trying to uh allow their personal politics to influence their decisions.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Well, you know, because you were part of the judicial branch, you know, at one time we we used to teach in the earlier years of education about the three branches of government that made up, you know, our country and the reason for that. You know, that it was a reason behind that. It was kind of have a built-in accountability from each group. It's a check and balance. And and it, you know, you take that away and it gets way out of whack and way out of balance. And and I think we've we've been on the on the just right on the edge of lady justice and the scales were supposed to be balanced. And I we've been almost getting to the thing where uh you know there's been a real push to get it out of balance.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

And uh you know, I I I told the the judicial screening committee when I first uh came up, um, and I I told them that if what I hope you're looking for is someone who and I I relate a lot of things to sports because I just love sports growing up. And and I told them, I said, if you elect me, if you put me into this position, I'm I'm a baseball umpire. Okay, I'm gonna call balls and strikes. I don't care who's at bat, and I don't care who's pitching. If it's over the plate, it's a strike. If it's not, it's a ball. And it doesn't matter who's throwing it or who's trying to hit it. So it doesn't matter for me when you come into my court because we have a lot of legislators that are lawyers as well. If you come into my court, if if you're a powerful legislator, don't don't look for uh a decision simply because you you're who you are. You you you may be right, and and and I will I will, but I'm gonna rule according to the law. Yeah, and if the law is on your side, you're in good shape. Yeah, but if it's not, the fact that you have certain power isn't gonna influence my decision. That's what we need on the bench. We need judges that are, you know, when I say apolitical, I by nature I I'm I'm I'm more conservative, okay? Every judge on the bench is gonna have they're gonna lean in some direction politically. But you've got to set that aside, and you have to look at the law. You have to make your call based on the law.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Well, you know, Tommy, it I I'm I would be viewed conservative at this point, but what people don't understand before I was a Christian, I wasn't. Right. I was very lawless, very liberal, and and very uh driven by what I wanted. It didn't matter what anybody else wanted. Then I come to Christ. Now I'm in a different kingdom, under a different government, under a different rule. And you know, instead of being selfish, I'm called to be selfless. Instead of being, you know, self-centered, I'm I'm I'm called to be able to walk and embrace whomsoever. And, you know, so when people want to kind of keep using the political parties as a reason of how they align themselves, when I don't think if you're a follower of Christ, I don't really think you can do that. I I think you have to realize that transformation and the formation of the life of Christ is going to change you, at least it did me. You know, I can I, you know, it it has in my own life. I'm, you know, I know what it was, kind of like the man said I was blind, but now I see, you know, that when Jesus healed the blind man, it's like I was lawless, but now I really feel governed and feel the necessity to be governed by the Lord, governed by the word of God. But you know, I see the the help of that with the Holy Spirit in Galatians 5 of being the fruit of the Spirit. I mean, so self-control is actually, you know, it's a type of law of the Spirit. Yeah. Are you gonna say something?

SPEAKER_01 29:15

It it part of dealing with just looking at the law, sadly, in our culture, we've just saw we've lost contact with reality. And it's almost like words don't have meaning anymore. And and in in 30 years ago, you could look at what the law said, and everybody in the room says, oh, okay, that's what the law says. Now, because of all the shenanigans we got going on intellectually in the academic world, it's like, well, maybe it doesn't really mean that. You know, well, I mean, you know, what's a woman? Well, I don't know. Maybe a woman is, I don't really know what a woman is. You know, 30 years ago, everybody knew what a woman was, usually. And and so now we just we bring to that that whole decision of what does it say? It, you know, it is and then and then you know the argument lost sometimes is well, the original intent of the founders and what did they really mean when they said this. And I I I mean we uh that's almost like asking the question, what would Jesus do? Well, we don't know, we're not Jesus. Right, but we do know what he said, you know, and we can base it on that so we know what these guys said. And so you have to go back to that, but it it has put us in a dilemma where if stuff, if there's no truth, then it nothing matters anymore. Really?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Yeah. Well, I want to I want to thank both of you for your time for you know uh your your feedback, your input. I I felt this was very important, and both of you understand it way beyond me. I really mean that and and respectfully, and and that's why I valued your your your involvement today and all. Um, you know, either either Tommy or Artie, whichever one, would y'all pray for the folks that are listening today and close us out with that?

SPEAKER_04 31:10

All right, Father, we just uh we come to you now and uh we're just so thankful um for you. We're so thankful for the law. Lord, um it is not always uh crystal clear to us at times, but that but you're there, and that's why we need to take the time uh when it's not crystal clear, when it's not um uh obvious to us what direction to go, you're there. And Father God, we just are thankful to have uh a God who is always available to guide us and to lead us. Um and Father, I just thank you uh for this ministry. Uh Lord, for those who will listen to this uh podcast, that uh that they will be um influenced to turn to you during these times in their life as they uh maneuver through life. Uh you know, we have laws, of course, we're a land of laws. Uh, but we also, uh Lord, as we navigate through our personal life in into this world, uh, and we have to navigate through these laws, uh, there are decisions that we have to make. And Father God, I just ask and I always pray, Lord, that you will give us wisdom as we go through life, as we see the uh challenges and we see the the directions that we go, that you will be guiding us and that we will be open to that guidance. Father, you are such an incredible resource for happiness, for contentment. And there's so many people who go through this life struggling because they're not looking to you. They're looking in other directions. They're their attention is somewhere other than where it should be. Father, I just encourage uh anyone who's listening to these these words that that if you're struggling, if you're uh having difficulty, look to Christ. Look to the God of your salvation for that guidance, because he is there and he will guide you. Uh all those years as I worked as a practicing attorney, as as a sitting judge, and even now as as I as I work as a mediator, Father God, I'm always seeking your wisdom. And we can't go wrong if we keep our ear to you. And so we're thankful that we have a God that is always available to us. And we just ask that you continue to be there, that you continue to give us the guidance that we need. And we're just so thankful for that. And we just thank you in the name of Christ. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Amen. Thank you, Tommy and Artie, and thank you, folks, for uh being a part of this today. A life worth living is a life worth giving. And, you know, just closing thought, James 1.5 tells us that if any man lacks wisdom, let him ask God. And so that's available to all of us. So I pray you're blessed this week, encouraged, and strengthened, and whatever your responsibilities are, go do it. Thank you.