SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to Lambs and Company, a podcast about life. We will feature guests and friends on the podcast to have quality conversations and wonderful fellowship. We hope you will join us. It's a life worth living and it's a life worth giving.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Welcome to Lambs and Company. We are excited today because we've got a unique uh controversial subject that we are going to be diving into. And we've got Dr. Audrey Hall, we've got Sam or Samuel Fryer, and um both of these men are wonderful, wonderful guys. And both of them, I personally appreciate their commitment and their discipleship to the Lord Jesus Christ and the body of Christ. So without any further ado, uh we're gonna pray and get started. Father, I just thank you for the opportunity to have Paul and uh Sam today is our guest on Lambs and Company. And I thank you. A life worth giving is a wort life worth living. Father, the purpose of and our desire is to help people navigate through things that have been sticking points and oftentimes cause fiery discussions and debate, disagreement, and even separation sometimes. Lord, we desire to speak the truth in love, and we desire that the truth would also bring freedom and open our hearts, open our lives to a greater dimension of life and freedom in Jesus Christ. We thank you for this opportunity and this privilege today in Jesus' name. Amen. Let me just read out of uh Acts chapter 2, beginning in verse 15. And the setting of this is the really the day of what we would call the birth of the church. And so you've got to understand that was a pivotal moment and a paradigm shift for everything that was going on uh in that day and time that had to do with both the old covenant, but also it's the introduction and it's the beginning of life and the way of life for the new covenant. And that has to be remembered and looked at. And I love the old covenant personally. I love the understanding it gives me. I love the background. Matter of fact, I don't believe you can understand the new covenant if you don't have a grasp on the old covenant. Some people have said the old is the new concealed and the new is the old revealed. Well, if you don't understand that and you take a position that, you know, I don't read the Old Testament, I'm just strictly a New Testament person and I'm a grace person, you're not really going to walk in the grace and appreciate the grace that you have unless you understand where you're coming from with the law and a lot of times with the ordinances that God established. And while I don't believe, as Malachi says, I'm the Lord your God to change or not, I don't think God has changed. I just think that God knew that he needed to do some things to make it possible for humanity to be able to be in relationship and family with him. And the real issue today is our faithfulness to the Lord and our faithfulness to the word. But in the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 and verse 15, one of the things that happens is it says, For these are not drunk. And Peter's having to say this because such an impact that the Spirit of God made that day upon the people. As you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day, it'll have been nine o'clock in the morning, verse 16. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel. And this is what I wanted to get to so we can dive into the real issues this morning. But it says, It shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams, and on my men's men servant and on my maidservants I will pour out my spirit in these days, and they shall prophesy, and I will show wonders in the heavens above, signs in the earth beneath, blood and fire and vapors of smoke, and the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord, and it shall come to pass that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The reason I wanted to read that is because I think it's interesting that when the Spirit of God was poured out, it was poured out upon both old and young alike. It was poured out among old men as well as young men. Artie represents one generation spiritually, so to speak. And Sammy represents another generation, but the thing that we all have in common is the life and the lordship of Jesus Christ. But the thing that you see that God did not pass over, he did not leave out, and he did not forsake, were both men servants and maidservants, both male and female, young men and handmaidens, both male and female. And God said that there was going, they were in both cases, they were going to prophesy. They were going to have an inspired word of God's life and nature at work in their life and through their life. And one of the things that we've all discussed, and we discussed this after the recording of another program, because it's been a bit frustrating and perplexing why there have been so many arguments and so many areas that ladies can be embraced and they can be heard and they can be received and they can be appreciated. But all of a sudden, when it comes to the church, that's like, no, you can't do that. And one of the things I know for a fact is if you look at the 1800s, early 1900s forward, it's interesting that most of the strongest, greatest missionaries were not the men. There were men that were great, Hudson Taylor, wonderful. I mean, there were different different ones that were, but there were a lot of women that were actually the ones that went to the field and discipled people for Christ. And we have a couple of texts in the New Testament, 1 Corinthians, also in Timothy, that people oftentimes use that women cannot teach. Well, I don't know if you want to call it teaching, but Jesus did say they can disciple. So that's part of what we wanted to get into. That's part of uh I'm going to kind of step back and tell Artie and Sam to take the gloves off and let's talk about this and let's hash this out or flesh this thing out and see if we can come to a place that reveals biblical truth and understanding that allows the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ to be upon the body of Christ. Because salvation is for everyone. Everyone, both male, female, young, old alike. And I just um um I just think it's interesting that we we've got so many areas that we pigeonholed, and we have defended these particular areas so strongly that we've actually become damaging many times. Now, let me say one thing about that statement. I do not believe in the corruption, in the priesthood, or in the priesthood of the believer, or in the priesthood of certain denominations or organizations today, that is actually a narrative that is being pushed, that is really not about the kingdom of God or the word of God. It's really about you've got to accept me and my lifestyle the way I am in the Lord. We don't get, we don't get to change God's narrative, we don't get to change God's truth to fit our lifestyles. None of us, male or female. So um if you're thinking that away, that's not what we want to talk about. We just want to talk about why it's such a struggle and a fight over these areas. So anyway, I want to welcome Dr. Hall. I want to welcome Samuel and Sam, and uh and just uh Sam, you brought up the question last week. And just you want to dive in and tell us what the question was, and so everybody else knows, because I know and already knows, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

So I see this a lot of times on the internet, particularly on X lately. Um it seems like it's a very there's a lot of ministers of the gospel out there, particularly male ministers, that are very passionate about the subject of can women teach or can women pastor a church as they define it. I say that intentionally. And I mean, I don't it's not necessarily even the subject of the differences in men and women. I think there's a divine order to things and the way that we're made up, and there's a lot that comes with that. And I want to highlight something about that before we wrap this up because it's important to bring the balance to it. What I'm trying to communicate, what I don't get is why there's so much zeal and passion about this subject. To me, it's excessive, it comes across excessive. Like you have people that I've literally seen this statement. It's like, what's wrong with the American church is that there are women in leadership. And I'm astonished. I'm like, you went into your prayer closet, and that's the revelation you came out with of what's wrong with us. Like that was it. And that I just I can think of a few other things. Exactly. So that's it. And that's yeah, that's unreal.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

It is well, that's a that I mean that's a valid, that's a valid thing, and and that's there are too many occurrences, both Old and New Testament, and and and I know that we don't want to get stuck on this, but I mean it if you're thinking that women are not going to be involved in really obedience to the Lord, because that's what I look at, the obedience. We had a friend, Artie and I had a friend, John Carr. He was a part of the Welsh Revival, he was a part of an apostolic movement there, and they took the position that women could not be involved in leadership, and then the Lord, through the Word of God and through uh the New Testament, over the course of several decades, changed John's view and opinion on that because what changed it was he realized if there's an anointing of Christ that's in you, and then there's an anointing of Christ, the same Christ that's in your wife, the order of the home is that God established is the husband is the head of the wife. But who's the head of the church? That's what people miss. Jesus is the head of the church, and so every person that's born of the spirit that comes into the body of Christ is not male nor female. That's what Paul's talking about in Galatians 3. He said there's not male, there's not female, there's neither Jew nor Greek, Scythian, nor barbarian, but it's a new creation in Christ. So things changed at the birth of the church. The orders of God didn't change, but things changed as far as ministry goes. And I know that people have are real big on titles today and positions, and they say, Well, you can't have this position, you can't have that. And I know, and listen, I know personally certain women that operate in a greater, clearer anointing of Christ than most men I know. Judson Cornwall made a statement to me one time, and Judson's going to be with the Lord, but and Judson wrote he was a worshiper of the Lord, who really had a great grasp and taught and instructed the body of Christ tremendously on praise and worship. Wrote about 55 books. One of the things that he pointed out to me one day when we were having a conversation, uh, actually in one of the local restaurants here in town when he was here, is he said, you know, Lonnie, he said, what people don't realize, most women that really are called to the Lord have to normally be more effective, more attentive, and more disciplined than most men. Because it's just accepted that men are in, but women are out. And he said, but what happens when God has called a woman to do that? And that was the point that John had to come to. He could no longer deny the fact that God had put his spirit upon both, you know, men servants and handmaidens. They couldn't, and it was the spirit of God. Now, what you label it and what you position it as may be one thing, and you may get hung up on that, but what you better not deny is discerning the body of Christ. And I think the issue that you're looking at and struggling with, and a lot of people struggle with, is they're not discerning the body of Christ. And it, you remember what Paul said in Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 11, when they were coming to the cup of blessing and the table, you know, he said one of the reasons people were weak, sickly, and even some had prematurely died, is because they did not discern the body of Christ. And I just like, I'm not willing to, I'm not willing to go there in a way that some people have been willing to take a stand, and they're just like, you know, they're just aggressive, they're manning, they're hard on this, and they give you a couple of reasons why they're that away. But I don't understand the attitude that comes across with that. I don't understand the nature that comes across with that, because the attitude and nature definitely don't parallel with what Jesus is doing. And sometimes I think a lot of that is learn what I would say learn behavior. They've learned it in seminary, they've learned it in school, they've learned it, it was been handed down, and it's like, man, we're gonna we're gonna fight for this hill. And um, there are things that I think we stand for, but what happens if we learn like Priscilla and Aquila? What do they do with that? I mean, how do you how do you have a Priscilla and Aquila that are married and both of them are recognized as functional people that Christ was using and releasing ministry and helping the body of Christ transition and grow from Judaism to the new covenant in Christ? You better be careful at the way that you go after that stuff, the way that some of these people have done that. And I understand that men need to be men. Women are women. And you know what? I want men to be men. I want the women to be women. I don't want the men be into women, I don't want the women being the men. And that's part of the other struggle that's gone on. The whole movement that came out of the late 60s and early 70s and up into the 80s of that whole movement, the spirit of that was wrong. But part of that that was wrong because people were fighting over this stuff. All three of us that are sitting here today are married to wonderful women. Wonderful women. All three of those ladies are gifted women, all three of those women are very intelligent women. And I would tell people that, I would tell people in a heartbeat, look, I'm not in my house, but but my wife is not efficient, and she's not inferior in any other ways, other than the area that scripture says, or what 1 Peter 3 says, that husbands need to live with your wives according to knowledge. I'm aware that we're joint areas of grace together. I'm aware that she might be weaker in the areas of the physical aspects of things, but not that's not intellectual. That's not spiritual. That has to do with just the design of God and the whole conflict going on in sports today of guys wanting to be in girls' sports and competing is being lived out of why all the girls that have been in the sports say, we don't want the guys in here that are pretending they're a girl to compete in the sports. It's created a real problem. And you know why? They say they're much more stronger, and their build is different than ours, and we just can't compete with that. Well, you know, the none of that's new. God defined and said on that.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

That's not offensive, that's just science. Yeah, basic biology.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah, basic biology.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

You know, I I think Sammy hit on the uh a key to this is that there seems to be folks that are just really upset with women in this role, but it's the role as they define it. And so that's where a lot of the struggle is with this, because the early church you know, I taught church history for eight years. Um I'm familiar with the early church, the structure of the church, the way things work, and all of it. And and part of what our struggle is that we're comparing apples and oranges, and we got two different movements going on in here. Radical feminism, the thing you're talking about, essentially told women that you can do anything a man can do. Well, if you turn that around and say a man can do anything a woman can do, well, obviously that's not true. But I can't have a baby. You know, I can't do that. You know, uh uh women probably physically can't do some things that some men can do. It it's ridiculous to to say that. Yes, you could be an engineer, yes, you could be a you could be a doctor, you could be all kinds of stuff as a woman, but uh, you know, I'm not sure you want to go out and be the power lifter competing with a guy that's three times your size. You know, it there's just a physical difference there. That's kind of another thing. Where it runs into with the early church, the early church had no professional pastor leader thingy. They used to none of that existed. There was no seminary, there was no church. You were discipled in the early church, and the early church certainly had leaders. Those leaders functioned as pastor, prophet, teacher, apostle, etc. And all of it was spiritually driven. You know, and and and what you've got is that this thing has been created in various denominational structures where it's a title, the thing you're talking about, it's a title. And and you give somebody a title and they act like they know what they're doing, but they may not. And they may not even be saved. There are people that are called pastor, they're called bishop, they're called they're not even Christians. They're not even really saved. And so it there is where the apples and oranges comes in. So and just this week, a prime example of what these guys are gonna look at that gets so passionate about this, so upset, uh, I heard a audio clip. A lady out of California, she's apparently a bishop in one of the particular denominations out there. And essentially she said that we should that the Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible has the words of God, but it's not the Word of God. So we need a a third testament. We need another Bible and talk about pulling pages out and that kind of thing. And and you know, and so those guys go say, C C See, it's a woman, it's a woman, it's a woman. No, because I've heard men say that nonsense too. I knew one. Yeah. I knew one in Bible college. Yeah. You know, so so it that's not a woman problem. That's a doctrinal problem. It's completely different. You know, so I it the the early church had had a an uh informal structure, and it would it spiritual authority was spiritually recognized. I guarantee when Paul the Apostle, and he wasn't Apostle Paul, he was Paul the Apostle. This could be he could be Bill the pastor. It's not Pastor Bill, although we use that. It's fine, there's nothing wrong with it. But but it it is Bill the Apostle. You know, you're Lonnie the pastor. You know, it it because that's how you function, that's what you do. And there's nothing wrong with that, but to think that that's some sort of professional position. You know, you know, you go to seminary, it's like you get a union card. And you go anywhere, and then you go into these churches and you negotiate them with a salary and you know, all this kind of stuff, and then they vote you in, vote you out. I that that's just that was nothing to do with the early church. And and now part of it is what do we do? Because we got all this, and you have to function within it, and God certainly is not surprised by any of that. And and that's where Christians are, you know. You you can, you know, you know, my wife and I, we sort of stepped outside of a lot of organized Christianity for a season, and and it was fine. And there was a lot of good people out there. There are a lot of good people out there, there are a lot of crazy people out there too. And and there are a lot of rebellious people out there because they couldn't function in this system and they took all the problems they had with them all the way out here and had the same problems, you know. So so you discover that there's I mean, you can do that if you want. Uh and every generation rediscovers that. You know, it's I'm just kind of waiting for the 20 somethings and the 30 somethings now to rediscover that, oh, we're gonna do things like the early church. Those movements kind of cycle through about every 40, 50 years. Everybody does their little thing, and it turns into a domination. That's how that's what happens with that. It's just it might be slightly different than some of the others, but it turns into a domination. Because after you do something about three times, it it's a tradition, and it just, you know, it keeps going. But it but it yeah, I think that's and and I've studied the Bible for over 50 years. Seriously studied the Bible literally for over 50 years. And you know what? Their verses I don't know. I don't know, you know, because I got rules. One of my rules is I don't know everything. So that is rule number one. Rule number two is like it, I don't know what everybody else needs to do. You know, you need to figure that out on your own. And and those are at least I got a few other rules, but those those are, you know, and and I for these guys to just I and I think part of Sammy's frustration, it's been mine for years, is that these guys selectively apply verses to stuff and ignore other verses that well, what about that one? You're doing this over here. Yeah, what about this verse, the way it says all this? Do you got divorced people in your church? You know, or whatever. You know, a lot of ways you can apply those things. And and you just ignore all that. You know, it was like like like one of our one of our fellows was it was it Rick Howard who said, you know, I could, I could, I would divorce my wife and they'd throw me out of the denomination. But if I shot my wife, I could be forgiven. You know, it's just it's just bizarre. You know, and uh so you you just have this uh uh frustration, I think, when when folks pick this to be the big deal and make it the boogeyman. That you know, like Sammy was saying, like like this is the real problem with the American church is we got too many women involved. Well, we got a lot of women involved. That's fine. And and women probably do bring issues with them. And there may be some things women don't need to be doing. You know, I but there are probably some things men don't need to be doing. I I it and I mean here we are, we're talking about women and we ain't got none here. There's no women here that can defend themselves, you know. But at the same time, I I think we just what do you do? For instance, 1 Corinthians. This is what I'm well, this is a an example of, I don't know. You got the the passage in First Corinthians where Paul talks about women keeping silent in church to let them learn from their husbands, you know, all that. And then he goes, he goes into the issue of if a woman is praying or prophesying in church and he's had her head covered. Personally, I think that's probably her hair involved in that, but not really a little bit oily. But if you want one, that's fine. And I'm okay with that. Just go okay, put a hat on, whatever you want to do. But but uh the but look at how that was. We see that as verses and chapters and divisions and sections in there. No, that was a scroll, it was all written on the scroll, all the way through there. And here you have the verse where it says, Let the women keep silent in church and we can learn anything doing there. And then later on it says, if a woman prays or prophesies in the church, well, okay, you could say you can pray silently. Okay, I'm not sure that's all that valuable, but you could. I mean, I'm I'm mumbling to God all the time. But there's no way you can prophesy silently because it's speaking out. So you're reading through there and go, Well, Paul, what is it? Women need to be quieter and need to prophesy. Or if they prophesy, it's okay. So what do they have to do? Make an announcement and say, hey, hey, hey, I'm prophesying. And all the men go, okay. But if you say, hey, what's that over there? The men say, Oh, shut up, woman. You know, I I mean, it's what it in other words, how do you interpret that?

SPEAKER_03 28:19

I don't know, really. You have to mention it just real quick, not to cut you off, but this is the this is the same church where earlier the guy's sleeping with his stepmother and they're celebrating. Yeah. So obviously there was some degree of dysfunction going on in this place.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

There was some some problems going on there.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Some issue. So obviously, Paul probably had to address that. Maybe there was an issue with the women. Who knows? And it's the same thing with the and one of the verses I have a bigger problem with where is is this saying, I forbid a woman to teach her usurp authority over a man. And and uh uh I you know, okay. I mean, it kind of says what it says. So so I've I've I've wrestled with that through the years, but at the same time, I'm going, where do you one of the things Sammy talks about? Where where do you draw the line? At what point does the kid that the woman can teach become a man? Right. You know, that that's a it it it it varies in cultures and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Well, you know, I know that you're already your background is you know, in the Hebrew, you know, you got a doctrine in Hebrew, an earned doctrine in Hebrew. And my understanding, because we got we got the the whole thing where God covenantally worked with the Jewish people, and Jesus said, you know, salvation is by the Jew, you know, in John 4 22, um, which our our Savior and our Lord is Jesus Christ, who happens to be Jewish. Well, in the old covenant, it was responsibility of the mother to teach the Pentateuch to her child, our children. She was doing that in the home, and then they had to know it enough to be able to recite it and to repeat it. So if she wasn't able subject to teach, then what was she doing?

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Interestingly, lineage, Jewish lineage is traced through the the mother. Uh if your father's Jewish and and and your mother is is not Jewish, then you're not automatically considered Jewish. If your mother's Jewish and they the mother can know who the father was, that's probably why they they trace that through the mother. Uh but uh you know it the situation in Timothy, was there a cultural situation where where uh you know Paul uh Timothy apparently had been influenced by his mother, by his grandmother? Paul's a good point too. And he mentions that specifically. Exactly. So was there an issue with Timothy where women were pushing him around? You know, I mean, is that something that was going on with that where that needed to be corrected?

SPEAKER_01 31:08

But whatnot wasn't Timothy also the place that Paul assigned Timothy was Ephesus. And Ephesus, if you look back in the book of Acts in chapter 19, you realize that Priscilla and Aquila had gone there, kind of passed through, and went on to Corneth, or you know, and and but Ephesus they had some real serious stuff going on there that was not a part of the Jewish culture, but it was a part of the pagan world of its worship and expression of worship to idols. But there was a word that Paul used, he said, women should not usurp the authority of a man, but the word usurp there is the same thing where the devil tried to usurp God. So obviously usurping is not good for men either.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Okay. But I I tell you, the the one of the most powerful people I ever heard in my life, this thing goes back to John Car saying he's just looking at the anointing of people, Justin Carmel's sister. I've heard a company would would she she's hands down the most consistently prophetic teacher I've ever heard. And every time the woman teaches teaches, and and she does a good job, she handles the Bible real well. There God challenges some in my heart. I mean literally every time. And uh and I've heard a few other people like that, but uh and they're uh men like that, not it not really quite to that level. But I you know what am I gonna say? Well well, God, what's up with that? Yeah, although Iverna never really saw herself as a pastor, she never particularly took that role. You know, she functioned in ministry quite effectively.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

She she actually did she actually when Judson was pastoring in Oregon, she actually was his associate. Associate, yeah. Yeah, but she also worked, she also worked in um uh like would be like the uh uh uh DSS. Yeah, with troubled ju uh juveniles and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

And so but just uh incredible teacher. And I, you know, I okay. And at that point, I just kind of say, Lord, maybe, maybe I don't understand that verse. And I am willing to say, you know, I'm willing to say that. I I that verse seems to say this, but I look at that, and I mean, that looks like you to me. And I mean, maybe I'm crazy, but I, you know, so I I am okay with just saying maybe I don't have a full understanding of that. I also am uncomfortable and don't like people on either side who go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify their position. There are people over here that radically want to defend women doing anything men can do, and there are people over here that want to have women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. And and I I I have a problem with both of them because no, you're not being honest. You you're pulling what works here, what you know, and and trying to defend your position.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

What you were gonna say something. Yeah, no, I think it's because you're big on what I'm big on, which is letting God be God. Yeah, and you know, it's God conceals a matter, and there's a privilege in creation for us to search out a matter. And I'm also big on data, and so scripturally speaking, you've got Anna, you've got Hilda, yeah. That's Isaiah's wife's name. Yeah. I'm correct. You've got Deborah, you've got Phoebe, uh, you you've got Priscilla, you mentioned, you've got these women in scripture, yeah, um, that are directly influencing the people of God and culture through some leadership capacity, specifically prophetesses is an actual term, yeah. That doesn't get talked about a lot. And then you've got these other verses that you mentioned, like Galatians 3, but then even through church history, and Jesus says that wisdom's vindicated by our children, wisdom's proven by the results. The NLT says it that way, and I like that. Meaning that, well, let's see how it plays out. Yeah, and you've got all these women throughout history that have positively influenced the church, men and women alike, and have a legacy this way that's untarnished in a lot of cases, as much as it can be with a human. And so, my only question is are we coupling zeal without knowledge? And according to Paul and Romans, this is literally, if you really boil it down to the heart of the issue from practical terms, this is what had the Lord of Lords crucified was men that were familiar with the written word of God, and it what they were seeing didn't match their interpretation of what was written, and so much so that it was an offense to them in different ways, and that led to his uh criminal accusation and crucifixion. So, like, are we are we so vehement about the subject that we are going to stifle the work of God? I just think that it's it's a it's a risky proposition. That's that's my whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

So I just like to ask questions, and I think we're supposed to think, you know, it absolutely you know, when I went to Bible college, I learned kind of one line of thinking, but then in a pursuit for the Lord in a personal way, um, you know, I my life was influenced by a lot of different older writers. It wasn't just the current guys, because uh I don't know why it turned out that way, but you know, I ended up enjoying Andrew Murray and I enjoy ended up A. B. Simpson, and um, you know, I liked A. W. Tozer, and these were people that uh the one thing they were really all seemed to be after was the Lord. You know what I'm saying? It's like they weren't they weren't trying to get into the gymnastics that the mental gymnastics that Artie referenced earlier, and one of the things that um uh really affected me was because of that, it caused me to to pause on some of the general thinking that was around me and look for does this person know the Lord? You know, does this person really have life, the life of Christ in them? So the the reference of our verna Tompkins uh without question had that. Uh the the person that was in our life, part of our advisory board, Mary Ann Brown, definitely carried and walked in that. Mary Ann started out in, you know, um Dallas and Fort Worth in the you know, working in the Baptist Theological Seminary there. And the Lord got a hold of her life and completely changed her whole life in the direction of that. Um fuchsia picket, not a fuchsia picket. Um all these people, you know, when you meet these people, when you were around these people in a personal way, their ministry of what they were releasing, the real heart of it was always about knowing God. It was about knowing God. It wasn't gender-driven, it was about knowing the Lord. And, you know, so they were really about new creation realities, they were really about new life in Christ, they were really about what God said to Joel, who Peter stands up when he sees the outpouring of the Spirit of Christ, and he talks about how the impact of the Spirit of God on the church was going to affect both male and female. It's gonna affect everybody. And the real thing God was after there, he wasn't their gender, he was after their flesh, the carnality many times that people end up living. And I think some of the arguments that we make, if we want to go back to Timothy, the very place that we were talking about that verse, what did he say? Don't get it caught up in foolish disputes and arguments, and we get caught up in foolish disputes and arguments over stuff that do not lead nor lend itself to promoting the life of Christ and the Lordship of Christ as well as the fatherhood of who God is as a father. We know he's God, but knowing him as father is a whole different thing. And a lot of people don't have a problem today. That's why everybody can hug a tree or go out and look at the stars and all this sort of stuff, and they're just saying I'm getting closer to God. Well, I guess you are. But you don't get to him except by me. And even that aspect of the gospel is being sidelined, and we want to take the gospel today and take the salt out of it, which is a preservative, and we want to sugarcoat it because we want everybody to be able to swallow it and like it. And so we just adjust it to fit what the culture wants. Well, if we adjust to what the culture wants, the culture never changes, you know, and I just think that we've got to have uh, you know, uh, what Dr. Piggy used to say, we gotta have a 10-killing, gully washing, old-time revival. And she was a lady, you know, but she was a well-spoken, well-polished woman. Yeah, and and had her earned doctorate degree. And that's the other thing that I'm watching. I think people have been able to go through the different steps of education and achieve things educationally. And what I already said early on in this, a lot of people can do that and never even be born again.

unknown 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

That's how we've ended up with a lot of professions. The character flaw that creates the problem with the woman pastor is the same character flaw that creates the problem with the man pastor. It's a character flaw. They're either overly ambitious or they want to be in control or they want to be a little tyrant, or they whatever it is, they're men that are like that, but they're women that are like that. But on the other side of that, they're good, decent men, good, decent women who may function in those roles. And they don't want to be a tyrant, they don't want to be a little king dictator in their in their kingdom. You know, but they don't want to steal money, they don't want to commit adultery, they don't whatever it is. But those those are character flaws that could be there in either one. You know, and sadly. That's the flashback. Yeah. And sadly, I think we ask people by putting them in in the position in a professional position of pastor, it's rough life. You're lonely, it's hard to make friends, people look at you like you're you got a halo around your head or something. Uh you know, I a bubble drinking beer on the side, just mm-hmm. You know, it it nobody's a preacher. What am I gonna do? You know, and and it it it is we have put people in a position that they probably never should have been in, either. Men or women, really.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Well, you know, uh, and I know again, you because you taught church history and all, but current events, um the whole idea of professional ministers being professional did not really even begin to come, it came out of the back side of the 20s, and then we went into the depression, then we had World War II, and kind of on the really back side of World War II, everybody felt like, you know, if we're gonna be important and we're gonna have a reputation, then our our pastors got to have a doctorate degree, and and but in that there's nothing wrong with the education, of course not. But the problem came where you could acquire the education and never even be born again, yeah. You could never even have a relationship with the Lord, and and that it was one. of the guys that had done that uh was uh and I could call his name into either denomination he was a part of and somehow he ended up in a a a a modern day tent meeting back in the 30s and he was a had his doctorate degree and was pastoring in a denomination and realized I'm not saved it it shook his world and buddy but once his world was shook and he got saved he he came out like a lightning bolt I mean he was just the real deal and he really was about letting people know uh the importance of knowing God and knowing the Lord Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

Yeah you know um well Sammy any any uh final thoughts or no that's it I just I see this a lot and I always ask the questions I'm just like and I haven't gotten an answer yet so I'll ask them now if anybody watches this this on that position but where's the line drawn what a woman's allowed to teach. If a woman's not allowed to usurp authority to teach over a man what can she teach and what can't she teach? Can she teach middle school kids? Can she teach high school kids? Can she be a counselor at a church? Can she lead worship or can she just not pastor in a Western contemporary pulpit? I don't yeah and I haven't gotten an answer because I think that it's this is the last statement I'll make but the issue that I fundamentally have is I don't believe for one second from being familiar with scripture myself and having a high reverence for the word of God that this is as clean cut of an issue as it's made out to be. And I think in my opinion the answer is we don't really understand fully the capacity that God can use a woman at least as this is being defined in this context. And I struggle with guys that are so dogmatic that they've got this figured out and this is what it means.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

I have trouble with people that have stuff so well figured out period because I I just I have had the experience in my life where I would take a position I figured it out and you know what I was wrong. Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Yeah yeah well uh obviously this is this is something that's gonna be ongoing but you know I um I appreciate both of you I appreciate your your time today appreciate your input and um you know I'm sure we're gonna be continuing to look into things of this nature but you know I'm like you sammy it's like I had to notice that most of the time in my 52 years of being a follower of Christ most of the people that were first to step forward and to be involved in helping train or our teach our children and minister to our young people they weren't the guys it was the it was the girls but all of a sudden they get to a certain point and then they they're like cut off you can't you you can't pass this threshold here and you can't see the problem is that's not written anywhere. No so like no now we're supplementary and interesting that if they went to engineering school they could turn around and be asked to actually teach engineering.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

My wife was uh an instructor in nursing for uh about eight years and she taught other nurses both male and female and I'm with her many times in the community when people that were her former students both male and female will come and start talking to her and after I said who's that I was one of my students and um and of course a lot of life has transpired from there to now and they're they're always thanking her and saying you know what you were one of the best teachers in nursing I ever had you know so if you can't if you if you can't if you if you can't teach one thought on that if God forbid but if my son was out in the world struggling and lost in darkness and God used some woman to reach him all I'm gonna do is be thankful. Absolutely that's right absolutely I think that simplifies absolutely well so generational you know old and younger and also why don't you close us out in prayer today Sam absolutely so Lord we just thank you for your creation we thank you for all the women that you're created and all the roles and abilities that they possess and obviously the wives that are represented in this room and I just thank you that you are God and we are not and so we just yield ourselves in submission to your wisdom and your creativity and your design and plans. Thank you for this podcast that's actually blessed for the listeners and to the glory of your name in Jesus' name a life worth living is a life worth giving God bless you.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Thank you so much