Is Cinco de Mayo cultural appropriation

Seleana and Timbre discuss Cinco De Mayo  and if it and other celebrations are cultural appropriation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Discord. Hello. Thanks, everybody. How are you doing today, Selena?

SPEAKER_04 0:23

I'm doing okay. Not too bad.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

How about you?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

I'm doing okay, you know. Um, I'm excited to talk about this podcast. Um, because I know it's a little bit little bit of con a little bit of controversy about tomorrow's holiday or maybe today when people are gonna be listening to this. Um single de mayo is around the corner. And there's been a number number of holidays uh that um is often addressed as cultural appropriation, and that's something I wanted to talk about today.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Whether it single de mayo is yeah, one of those holidays. Yeah, when we first I knew a little bit about single demo a little bit more, like it's not uh celebrated in Mexico, at least not nationwide. No, it's not actually. Yeah, and I knew that part, and I knew that it was mainly celebrated here in the United States, even though we we thought like growing up, you just kind of I thought it was part of Mexico, it was a Mexican holiday. So we just celebrated the same way. Uh, but I knew I I figured that out when I became an adult that it wasn't the case, mainly for my interpreters. It was great. I've learned so much from working with interpreters. But um, then when we decided to do this podcast on this subject, of course, I did a little bit more research and learned even more about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Uh where it it was interesting to hear.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Did you do did you uh I did I didn't do enough this time around. Um, I I have I have some websites out to kind of eyeball as we go along, but you know it's it's really just a military celebrating a military victory, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:26

It really is.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

The Battle of Puebla in Pueblo, Mexico, uh in 18 May 5th, 1862.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Correct, correct, yep, which is a state in Mexico. Um, and and it was a battle against France.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

And they're all outnumbered three to one.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

Yeah, but it goes and it goes, but it's deeper than that when as as I did the research on it, like for where how this battle became the battle. Uh so Mexico previously was in debt to Spain, England, and France. And after like the Mexico-American War ended up happening, and um they started getting back anyway. They're starting to get they were struggling financially, and their president said that he was putting a two-year hold on paying their debts, their international debts.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Well, Spain, England, and France did not like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Of course not, right.

SPEAKER_04 3:37

They weren't well.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

I don't think any country even today would like that.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

They probably wouldn't, no. Uh so yeah, they came to uh basically like shelter force to go to war to get paid. And so they they came over overseas, whatever, and they did start battling, but Spain and England realized that France had their own agenda, they actually wanted to conquer Mexico, and they just wanted to get paid, they didn't want to conquer it, so they left and let France go ahead and do their thing. Well, in the process of France of trying to take over for Mexico, on their way to Mexico City, they ran into the city, um Puebla, yeah, Puebla, Pueblo, Pueblo, Pueblo, and P Up. I was practicing all day, and I still my mouth can't be it right now.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

That's all right.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

Um, so yes, Pueblo, Puebla, yeah, right. Yeah, Puebla, uh, and I'm still probably not saying it right, but they thought yeah, they thought this was gonna be an easy battle.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

Uh to fight, especially because of the out I mean they were outnumbered. Well, they lost.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yeah, I think they got their asses handed to them.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

They did, they did. They they lost a few hundred soldiers, and Mexico lost less than a hundred.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

In that battle, and so that was a victory for them for that day. Now, France did not stop. I mean, they retreated, of course, they came back with even more power and force and more man power and supports and eventually, you know, there was a time frame that France did conquer and take over Mexico for a while. But so on May 5th, when this happened, though, it was a victory, of course, because it showed it can be done. And it was known that they had so many less uh soldiers and resources, but yet they still won. So it showed the strength that we the that it could be possible. The news of this spread all the way through the newspapers, like as much as it can, but it did all the way up to like San Francisco, and there was a lot of immigrants that were working that were miners back then because they did mining prior to this end up happening. Uh, so they were doing mining work up there, and then when the 49ers, 1849, um, came for the whole gold rush, they came over and started mining and basically kicking them out of their jobs of doing mining because they were so overwhelmed and started degrading them and so forth. Once they heard the news of this that it was happening, they found you know strength because they were also getting treated and pushed out here in America the same way that France was trying to do to them. The war did continue to go on, they knew that, but what they decided to do is on May 5th, Cinco de Mayo, they created a festival. Okay, and they sold things at the festival, and it was a huge thing, like in the raffles, and they made money. The money that they made from Cinco de Mayo, they sent back to Mexico, and um to help them with the war that they were fighting against France, and because France act, but but then France won it, and they just continued to do it every year, and eventually, like the group of people that started it, they started spreading out, they started moving to Southern California, of course, Arizona, you know, the Nevada area, and they all brought Cinco de Mayo with them, the celebration, and so they and that's kind of how Cinco de Mayo started.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Okay, but why why don't they celebrate it as much anymore in Mexico versus Mexican independence?

SPEAKER_04 8:31

Well, Mexican Independence Day is September 16th, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

It is completely different, it's not totally different.

SPEAKER_04 8:37

This was this so cinco de Mayo was a representation of a war in their strength that they actually could win, not a war, a battle, but you could win these battles, and that it was just a great conquer. It's one that was actually known as kind of like Haiti, Haiti lost. They didn't get that news spread out, so it didn't become because they didn't want other people to believe that they could do it as well and that it could be done if they became together. Well, the news for Cinco de Mayo and what happened in Puebla did get out and it showed strength, and they used that to unify each other and also to make a profit off of it to send back home to try to help homeland their homeland. And and it was that wasn't just Mexicans, it was people from um it was Peruvians, it was Chileans, there was a lot of that were up here mining and migrating, and it was of course their language that brought them together, um so closely, but yeah, they would so while we were doing a civil war, this is when the cinco de Mayo was celebration was happening, people who could were spending the money and they were sending it back to Mexico. Okay, not even used here while we're doing a civil war, but okay, so during the civil war, the civil war stuff was going on too with us prior, and of course, like the southern states didn't they didn't like Mexico, they wanted it more takeover, the southern the confederates as our civil war with the confederates, and then there was you know the north, the higher up. Um so anyway, our civil war we won, we got ours take over, and then the US decided, like asked Mexico, can do you need our help, and that's how they ended up conquering with France, because then France pulled out for a while there though, years they had that, but they also knew France's main it wasn't main, but next objective was to come and take over America through Mexico after they conquered it. Okay, so by the US helping them, it stopped that threat. Otherwise, that was what was happening next. So once again, the US didn't do it just just to do it, it also had some uh value for them in it. But yeah, that was France's original plans, was to come through Mexico then to try to take over America, and they had the Confederates that were pretty much on their side because remember America was fighting, it was a British in France and back in like Alexander Hamilton. If you watch that, you know, yeah, I didn't like Alexander the the the the play at Hamilton, but the Hamilton it tacho though a little bit if you if you knew the story and if you didn't it was the story's important um and it that yeah so because remember it was France and Britain over here that we were fighting mostly back then to discover land, but yeah, it was great to hear that it was through you know that's how single mayo.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

It's it just and it took off because it's because of money, sure, you know, so but the but single day mayo in Mexico is largely celebrated only in Puebla. No, my my other other other parts of Mexico might recognize it, but it's not widely I mean it's widely recognized, but not widely celebrated like it is there or like it is here. But why has it become such an American holiday to go out and go get plastered? Because you go out and you go get plastered, that means you spend money, so that means that there's a good reference to that, you know, spending money and giving money to Mexico to help support the commercial in the in the historical sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:16

Well, so you know originally it started with them sending money back home, which was to Mexico, or it to help them. Well, once you umce you do that, you they saw the profit, so we want to take over it. That's how it ends up becoming commercialized and becoming an American holiday. Instead.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

St. Patrick's Day in of itself is also has been culturally appropriated here in the United States. Now, there's other cities, New York, Chicago, and other cities that have a much broader celebration of it, and because those cities have a very strong Irish heritage, and they take St. Patrick's Day very seriously.

SPEAKER_04 14:23

I kind of wouldn't mind looking into that because you gotta think about the history of the Irish um here in America. They've been they actually came over as slaves, we do a lot of them. Yeah, and so I'm sure that once again a population that was being degraded or considered less that uh actually celebrated their culture was found to be profitable. Okay, I mean I don't know. I I didn't do the deep search, no, but kind of makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah, we we we we we rushed this podcast to record today's the fourth. Um I want I wanted to get this out ahead of uh May May 5th because uh because usually we we record later in the day, and I didn't want to get it out at the end of May 5th. I wanted to get it out ahead of time. Uh um so we we can't we're coming into this a little unprepared, but we but we both have feelings about the holidays and cultural propriation and our familiarity with that subject and the holidays themselves, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:39

Right. I just didn't, I mean, we were talking about single de mayo, so you're right, I didn't look for Saint Patrick's meeting to look at that one.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Um but I did learn a lot and more because like I knew already it wasn't uh quote unquote Mexican holiday, but a lot of people do think that it is independence day, Mexican Independence Day, and it's not, and it's more important than just going out with your cervezas and your tequilas and your um and and go getting hammered. Now there's there's a sense of community about it, about Cinco de Mayo and St. Patrick's Day, and I was gonna talk about briefly Oktoberfest as well. Um Oktoberfest is actually really broad, a broad holiday, and is not as far as I I've read, is not considered cultural appropriation. Um there's it's a it's a much more inclusive and broader holiday, even though it's I thought it was even though it's a it's a large it's actually the world's largest folks folk festival. Um and uh uh it's not only locally recognized but also on on the world stage as well.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

It is, I know. I I remember learning more about that. It did come from over on the other side of the pond, Oktoberfest, and it is widely celebrated over there.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

But is there anything maybe inappropriate about let's say um the Anglo-Saxon white or other races that are non-Hispanic or non-Mexican, um overly celebrating such a day like Cinco Day Mayo without actually recognizing its origin.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Well, in that opponent, you would think you would have to say that for anybody to celebrate a holiday without recognizing their origin, the origin of the holiday, and if you feel that way, then the answer is yes. That also means the answer is yes to that question that nobody should celebrate a holiday without understanding the origin of it. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

And let's just be honest, that's not what happens, and but is it overly celebrated here too much when it's really a look just a local holiday to Puebla, Mexico?

SPEAKER_04 18:23

I I mean on another sense probably, but it also doesn't signify the the war in that part of Mexico stamping up to help us. But yeah, I don't know. I mean it's it's it is nice to have a day of celebration. It I wish they would when they advertise it, advertise it more about the meaning instead of saying we're celebrating cinco de mayo, tacos are too far, da-da-da, margaritas are on sale for this, like yeah, but not ever saying cinco de mayo. What is that? Like, why are we celebrating it?

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Well, I heard I heard something interesting. Uh yesterday. Um, I went into uh uh into the city uh to go to another celebration, another another event outside of Cinco de Mayo, and uh Portland was celebrating. They had their own single either the whole weekend or cinco de mayo celebration that was yesterday, the third on Sunday. And I I think they were doing it because it was the weekend that was instead rather than rather than doing it in the middle of the week, you know, on a on a work day, they would they'll they'll transfer it to the weekend and yay, let's celebrate today. Um when everybody's free to do so. Um my lift driver was um had immigrated from Mexico nine years ago, and I asked her opinion about it, and she was actually quite positive about it. And she was she appreciated it for the fact that um it is essentially America, the United States recognizing in a positive manner Mexican heritage, right? And I think it's in a positive light to what's been going on lately with immigration. And and I thought that was okay, that that's a good way to put it. You know, yeah, yeah, it's okay. It's not really about what we're not really celebrating what it's about, but we're celebrating a heritage that is not our own in a positive light and recognizing it positively.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Yes, I think rather than suppressing it or yeah, festivals like that that that show that show the culture, not instead of just the advertisement of the food, you know. So that is what helps and and is a positive thing, and that helps does drive the purpose of the holiday. We had one here, they had a huge parade here on Sunday as well, but I think they called it uh they kind of combined it May Day.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah, there may I was gonna say that there's a big May Day celebration, especially in Prosper not Prosper um Powderhorn Park, excuse me. Um or at least if it's been there before, that maybe it might move around the city depending where you know permissions, but um it could have still been there. Um I should have brought that up on my screen to talk about May Day too, because I mean that's sort of I because I I think it gets often confused locally, especially Minneapolis, but also nationally, that what is May Day, you know, May fifth or is uh or Mexican independence, but no, May Day is a completely different holiday.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Yes, it is. And I because they're so close, I think they do. Sometimes combined like that.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Right. But where do we, as we, you know, kind of close up here, maybe. Um, and we um where do we talk about things like that? And uh and what's been got me thinking about this as we've been discussing this is how we've moved Thanksgiving to Indigenous Peoples Day, haven't we?

SPEAKER_04 22:25

No, I think it's still that. Um Columbus.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Oh Columbus Day, okay. Thank you very much. Yeah, Columbus, thank you very much, you know, because I because I know there's there's controversy about celebrating Thanksgiving. Let's oh yeah, okay, yeah. This yeah, this one group helped one one group of our ancestral settlers, but we massacred them otherwise.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

Right, that's what I was gonna say. I can't I have a hard time celebrating a massacre, right? Which is exactly what it is. Uh but so since we're kind of forced or get the opportunity to celebrate that day as a holiday, I think we've all flipped, not all, but a lot of us have flipped our mentality to having it being just a thankful day, a day that we are thankful for each other, a day that we're thankful for life and the things that we give and to be kind to each other, which is a really good way to twist that. And you know, and it's a beautiful way to celebrate to have a day to turn it into something positive of something that was so horrific. It's not Thanksgiving Day because it was the feast and the day that we became. No, it was a massacre. But since they're forcing the day upon us, we're deciding not to celebrate that, but just to take it as a day, as a reflection, and we appreciate each other.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah, and and I think that we use that for almost any holiday now, Christmas, you know, um, and I think we're probably more a little bit more emphasis on indigenous peoples on Columbus Day, formerly Columbus Day, and now Thanksgiving, but also uh now the cultural heritages of Cinco de Mayo and um St. Patrick's Day.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

Yes, it because I I try to look at it. Columbus Day wasn't changed to Indigenous People's Day nationwide, it's only by states, so like our state, Minnesota, it is um indigenous day.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

There's no longer Columbus Day, no, but thank goodness Minnesota and uh granted the northern states, I think, have a little bit stronger Native American presence, but I mean, even though they're I mean the Native Americans exist all over the continental and all over in Alaska, Hawaii, and all all over the US. Um, but we we have some significant populations um in Minnesota and Wisconsin, where I originally grew up. Yeah, well they were pushed to spots in the areas, pushed around.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

And of course they're gonna push them because it's cold up here.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

And the weather changes, you know what I mean? Whether that was really their I'm sure that wasn't. They didn't think that it was too habitable. So they wanted the southern land where they could have sure their crops year-round to make their money and not to be freezing, having to worry about the elements and keeping themselves warms and so I mean yeah, but there's still presence, they're huge presents though like in Nevada, like those southern, like the southwestern.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Is it is it is is the um is the is the resistance of certain of these holl certain holidays around the commercialization of them. Even though I mean you're celebrating, you're spending money like uh single day Maya was you know getting resources and money together and sending it to Mexico. So there's that, but I wouldn't really associate that uh positively with modern commercialization. But um, I think some of my animosity about some of these holidays is is the the commercial advertising and commercialization of it. Is that where a lot of this resistance comes from?

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Uh for which holidays are all of them. Thanksgiving I don't think all of them have resistance.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Okay. You know, I don't think well when we're when we're talking when we're talking about cultural appropriation, when when there's I mean certain groups, you know, I um you know, are more as like, hey, you know, it's single de mile is actually not about you know Mexican you know Mexican independence or anything like that, and it's just about drinking drinking. Um those discussions in a resistance sense. I mean, we're not out fighting in the streets over it and we're not you know vandalizing things to try and or petitioning um to try and stop the celebration. I'm thinking of, you know, when we start considering the cultural appropriation of it or other holidays.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

Well I I don't know, I I think I mean it has become more commercialized, but they still are doing, like you stated, events that show the cultural to give the exposure to children since they did take it. So and that's what they originally started with festivals showing their culture, like within their culture, having their food, like their places, their clothes and things, and inviting people there and making money. So yes and no, I guess. I don't know. I don't hear too much pushback about Cinco after mile. Anything I hear is it's really only celebrated here in America, right? Which it really is, mainly, and then one state in Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:53

So it really is. I don't know. I don't know. I don't hear about too many people being offended about it.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Not to say there's not, because there's people that are I guess I haven't as much. But I just I just know or understand that it's um thought of as cult cultural appropriation.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

Was it thought of that? As far as I know, I thought I thought I read something where they said it was not considered cultural appropriate holiday.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

But I don't know. I mean it seems like it it seems like it is.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Or is it the white society that maybe has adopted it, but now but also there's an other other whites are trying to counter that and be more and change change our ways that you know white America has adopted and commercialized other holidays.

SPEAKER_04 30:09

I think it's my it's all about the money.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 30:13

That's that's what it all comes down to. They found a way to profit it, and so they gotta make it and continue to be profitable.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Sure. But but I guess I'm I'm in a way I try to be positive about it. Hey, I look at the community side of it. I'm going I'm going out to celebrate Cinco de Mayo at a friend's house tomorrow night. Yeah, yeah. Um, I sort of think about it. I'm like, wait a minute, did I know they're not Hispanic? And um what's was why why is it significant to them to celebrate it, other than just a day that to get together and have fun.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

See, and I I don't think you have to be from a culture to celebrate their holidays.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Okay, that well there there there that that could be another discussion for another day. It's like it's I I don't think that you should.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

You're celebrating cultures. I don't think that that's a requirement.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

I I think I think that's been an argument about Cinco de Mayo and St. Patrick's Day, that you should you know, in order to really thoroughly appreciate and celebrate either of those holidays, that you you should have some more connection to it. I think that's been one of the arguments.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

I haven't heard too much to be honest with you, arguing a lot of people, especially St. Patrick's Day, they just love to drink. Um, I haven't heard too much like same with like Juneteenth. You don't have to, it's not just black people to celebrate that. Sure, everybody can celebrate that. Okay, you know that yeah, I don't think single demand, I don't think you need to be Mexican. Yeah, so forth. I don't think that you have to be Irish to do that or German to do Oktoberfest, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:03

So well those those are all really good points. So I I'd really hope that if any of our listeners want to uh give us uh give us your input. What do you think? Is it cultural appropriation? Is it not? And how do you celebrate the holiday or do you not? And why?

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Right. And did you know where this holiday originated? What it meant?

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Exactly, or any of the other holidays that you celebrate.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

The origin of them.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yep, do you understand and appreciate the origins?

SPEAKER_02 32:38

But exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Well, thank you, Selena.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah, thank you, Temper.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

This has been a really thought-provoking uh uh session today. Really glad we did it.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Yeah, I'm glad that we did too. I learned a lot more too.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Well, and thank you everybody for listening. Thank you everybody for listening.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

Yes, thanks everybody.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

And we're discussing. And we wish you all well.