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DISCO DEI Podcast
Timbre and Seleana discuss DEI and other social topics in an unscripted stream of conscious tyle.
DISCO DEI Podcast
DISCO discusses LGBTQ Pride Month with their friend Sica
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DISCO discusses LGBTQ Pride Month with their friend Sica, their identity and how their business supports the LGBTQ community.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Disco Diverse and Inclusive Stream of Conscious Podcast. I am your host, Timber. And with me as always is my fellow host.
SPEAKER_01Hello, everyone. It's me, Selena. Welcome back.
SPEAKER_02Hi, Selena. Great to have you back again.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02These are turning out really, really well now for us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. Today's going to be another great one that we're discussing.
SPEAKER_02I have a very good friend with me tonight and you. Um, you know, we're tonight, we're talking about gay pride, something that's very important for the Twin Cities and for the state of Minnesota.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and actually, just in general, above and beyond, I think it's a great important uh topic to talk about and to highlight and discuss. Because uh listeners, if you have listened to us before, you know that we push for humanity and for our love and everyone and celebrating everyone. Absolutely. Today, our celebration is going on pride, and we're gonna be here with Sika.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, very good friend of mine, fellow collaborator.
SPEAKER_00Yes, what's up? Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I'm super stoked to be here and to kind of like tie some things together and help people better understand like the importance of pride and the importance of, like you said, humanity and equity and just being an inclusive place and people. So yes, welcome, yes. Excited to hear the story.
SPEAKER_02So tell us a little bit more about yourself, you know, how and how we met.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, yeah. So I don't even know. I've only I feel like I've known you for so long.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, so me and Timber Timber met through photography. Um, I'm a hair and makeup artist. I work on site, um, doing all kinds of stuff. I travel the world, I get to do fashion weeks all over the globe. I get to produce fashion events, and um, I've been lead at like New York Fashion Week and LA Fashion Week, going to Milan probably in the fall. I was in Tokyo last year. Just weird, just wild the things that happen for yourself.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, crazy.
SPEAKER_00Um I do that. And then I also uh I am a salon owner, so I've owned salons for 20 years now, uh commissioned salons, which is kind of an important part of like bringing up my community and showing up for my community, both locally as like client-based, but also as the styling community in the Twin Cities. And then aside from that, like I'm a mom, which is kind of cool. I feel like that's an important part of the story, especially in LGBT world. Um, but yeah, what else do you guys want to know? What else can I share with everybody?
SPEAKER_02Uh tell us about the journey of your identity and coming out, figure out who you are and how that developed.
SPEAKER_00Totally. So um, I know that's what we're here for. So I'm a I'm a non-binary person. Um, that can be kind of tricky for a lot of people. I use they, them pronouns, which I I love language. So being somebody that uses singular, they I know that can be kind of catch people off guard. But um, I live in a world where it's a lot of gender fluidity. Um, I typically dress a little bit more on the feminine side. And so I don't take it any kind of way if people say she, her, her. So don't don't feel like you have to say they them. But um, I always joke with people, I'm like, my my gender presentation is not your vocabulary necessarily. So um, but my story is kind of probably different than a lot of people out there. Uh, I come from a family that's really inclusive. I'm not even the only queer person in my family. Um, my mom was a social worker, so coming up with people with a lot of diverse backgrounds was something that that was always a part of it. We had a multicultural household growing up, we have multicultural family um in our extended family. And so seeing people that were different, it was never a difference. It was just people are people, and there's a lot of humanity there, and there's a lot just I was like say radical inclusion, but truthfully, it's like it's radical to be inclusive these days.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so I came from a family where uh it wasn't even, I have this kind of boring coming out story because there was no coming out. It was, I like boys and girls, I like everybody. And my family was like, yeah. I was like, I I go by the them. I'm non-binary, and they're like, Yeah. It was, it was never a big thing. And um, I didn't realize until I got kind of in the more broad world. I know that my brother and I, we were really tight, we grew up really close together, we're 13 months apart, we have really similar stories, and who doesn't have a bunch of trauma that bonds them with our siblings or somebody close from childhood? But so we came up and we were always a safe place. We kind of joked when we were in like college age. We're just like, do you ever notice like all of our friends turned out to be gay or trans or asexual or something? And I'm like, oh, it's really weird. And then as I grew up, I was like, oh, it's because I was too. Like, oh, that's what that piece was. Um, but we had such a safe home life. We had, I mean, in some ways, we had such a safe place and a safe, secure place to explore that stuff. That I think as I got older, creating a salon environment and creating like a world in the arts and in photography and all that, creating a manifestation outwardly that other people could feel safe in and feel reflected in. That's been kind of my goal. Like the salon that I own is called open. And the whole thing about open hairspace is it's open to everybody. It's it's radical in the sense that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity. Everybody deserves all that. And not only do clients love it, but we have a really um diverse staff because of it too. And they get to see themselves reflected in one another and in the clients that come in, and vice versa. So it's really, it's like those positive um kind of those positive intentions, once manifested and created, they just replicate and they just create more permission almost for people to be their authentic selves. So I'm I'm really lucky in my story, but being able to kind of weave like my queer identity through a lot of that and let it inform my practices outwardly, like that, that in itself is a privilege. And the arts are a huge place. I'm sure with photography, you know, it's like once you get the idea, so much of it comes to life because of all those little fingerprints that come into it.
SPEAKER_02And so absolutely, and collaborating with other artists, that's always I loved reaching out with you and uh others to help me develop my own graphic ideas, you know, and the sets and things like that and the costumes and yes, totally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um that's I I just I feel like uh especially in the Twin Cities, we have one of the biggest, most inclusive like trans populations in America. We're like we're ground zero for trans people. People come here for the safety of uh the policies that protect people and things like that from other states. And I almost sometimes feel like I'm in a bit of a bubble, which is part of even at my shop where when we talk about inclusion, it's not just including including people that would otherwise be excluded, it's also including people that are maybe more on the mainstream, closer to the right of things, maybe don't know trans people, maybe have feelings negatively about gay, trans, um, anybody in the spectrum because they don't know them yet. And so being able to facilitate a place where we can have open and honest conversations about that, where they can see our humanity, where they can bridge that gap, a lot of times those fences get built and people don't cross over them because they don't know how to get on top and see what's on the other side. And so kind of building those doors and allowing people to see both sides of it and know that like every everybody's just people, man. We're all just trying to survive, we're all trying to do our best. Um, I feel really lucky to be able to get to do that. And and the Twin Cities, like I said, Twin Cities is a great place for that. It's not without its problems. Um, but yeah, it's uh it's it's been I've been really lucky to be able to kind of have that bubble, I guess.
SPEAKER_01What a great way to uh what a great environment type to create for a salon. I mean, like let's think about it. When we go get our hair done, go to the barber shop. That's where a lot of conversations and personal things end up happening for years. People's stylist or barber was their therapist. Yeah, you know, and going to those uh going to the shop, you know, was their therapy. They would go and you'd be there for hours and hours and days. And so I think that was a that's a very great environment to create and to open, to have people to open up and hopefully learn and kind of like I say, have those conversations that change their mind, that make them see a different light and see people differently. Um, I think that's a great comfort environment. And I love that one thing I was discussing before with this story, one thing I really love sharing is that you you have the positive side of the coming out, not the not the traumatic and the sad. And um it's we we hear a lot, we don't hear a lot about that and and those experiences. And I love to hear that you had those experiences and to share that those experiences do happen. It is real, you know, people are accepting. Families do love and are accepting for that as well. And then you took that and went ahead and created the space for others who possibly did not have it to begin with. And that's just amazing and beautiful, you know. And by doing that, like I really admire that and I love it. And a lot of people I wouldn't invent that like the salon, but why not? Yes, of course. That's that's where us women therapy is, um, you know, and I know it is the same for men.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I I think I tell my stylist, I'm I'm my tailor, you know. I got a I got a unique body frame, so I'd like to go get my bespoke suits made and bespoke shirts, you know, because it helps me fit my frame better. But um, I tell him more than I tell anybody. And my stylist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. There um today I found out one of my clients is pregnant and she hasn't told her family yet. Oh I'm the only person outside of her husband that knows. Uh, three weeks ago, I one of my clients I was like, How's it going? How's your summer? You seen your friends, how's your hair going? And they were like, I just left therapy and um I'm a woman. And I was like, Oh, hey, way to way to go. That's amazing. And I was like, I wonder if they wanted me to give more, but I'm very cool. Yeah, that sounds great. And this person who's been presenting mail to me for the last two years is just by the way, I'm a woman now. A plus, like, oh yeah, yeah. I'm so proud of you. Right. I was like, holy, like, I'm the first person that people come out to. I'm the first, I'm the person that gets to plan what their new vibe is gonna be, that they get to talk about all the things that they're excited about in these new realms. And often they like wear their sounding board for that kind of stuff. Um, and I would say too, like, I uh I can't see the I can't see myself the way the world sees me. I'll be honest. If I'm wearing a button-up shirt, I think instantly I look like a lawyer, and everybody around me is like, really? Really? I'll be like, oh yeah, I'm an I'm an adult today with my giant monster chain boots. Yes. But I'm like, the part of the reason that I'm able to walk in the world like that is because of the bravery that I see with my team. Half of them are like half my age, and these kids are out there wearing whatever they want, being the people they want to be. And it is like it's that kind of positive feedback loop. They're doing it and they're showing up. And a lot of them live far away and they're driving out from outer ring suburbs and stopping at gas stations, wearing their dresses and wearing their corsets and coming into the city and doing stuff. And it it gives that space for other people to do it. And like, oh, we do uh we do the Fourth of July parade in the town, but we're technically in Richfield, which is a suburb just south of Minneapolis. That parade's big all the time. It is, it used to be the biggest parade in the state of Minnesota. Yeah. Um, they had one of the last remaining flag flag raisers from Iwo Jima. Um, so yeah, it's a huge big parade. And um, we our shop is just over the border on the Richfield side. So I joined the Chamber of Commerce and was like, yeah, we gotta be in the Fourth of July parade. It's huge to me. And my whole team was like, really? The Fourth of July in this country, like that's what we're gonna be doing. I was like, yo, we have our First Amendment rights right now for only who knows how long. So let's use them. And also, if you lived in a town like this, a small town, and it's not by by any means like a small town, it's the urban hometown. But like if you were a kid coming up in a town and they had a 4th of July parade, the last thing you're gonna think you're gonna see is a whole bunch of rainbow-haired, queer weirdos riding on a float, like throwing out candy and gift certificates. Like, that's something huge. That is that piece that like they might not know where their place is, they might not even know that there's language for the things that they're feeling. And to be able to see people that look, oh, I want to see what that looks like on me, that gives them a chance to try that out too. And so um, I feel like the salons are like kind of an I mean, even a therapist is gonna listen to you and help you process. A stylist or a tailor is gonna help you put on that identity and play around with it. And I mean, even in photography too, it's like you create these scenes and really what more, what more of a gift can we give people than to create a scene like on themselves outwardly of what they're trying to be on the inside? So right. Yeah, I was thinking about that.
SPEAKER_01Like they come and they confide, and then you know, when they're there, not only do you guys provide that space, but you provide for them to leave looking and feeling beautiful. Yeah, you know, and those two combined really changes and confident about themselves. Yes, exactly. Yes, yeah, yeah. If we're doing it right, if we're doing it right. I love the idea of going to the fourth to the Richfield Parade, and I like showing up in the most unexpected places because those are the people that we really do want to touch. Yeah, you know, those who are not expecting it and to to experience it for them to let's open their eyes and yeah.
SPEAKER_00When I feel like the world is changing really fast and we are getting so separated into for better or for worse, like I say, I live in a bit of a bubble, but it's a beautiful bubble, and I really love it. It's not a bubble of fear, it's a bubble about like what could be. And I'm like an elder millennial, and I am really informed by this is a maybe you've seen it, but there was this movie called Too Wong Fu. Thanks for everything, Julie Newmar. I've seen it, Wong Fuck. Have you seen it? Okay, so back in the day, there's this movie where three drag queens is kind of a Priscilla in the desert thing. Um, three drag queens are driving, their car has an incident, and they can't get to their destination, so they're stuck in this small town, and everyone's like, Oh my gosh, these drag queens. And then the drag queens just keep being themselves. They don't get smaller, they don't put away their drag, they keep showing up as the people that they are until the town starts to be like, oh, she told me that I would look better with this shawl. And it looks better, doesn't it? Oh, she did my hair like this, and uh. And by the end, they're having this huge festival, and everybody is just like lit up with the joy that these people have brought into their lives and they see the world so differently. And five days before, these drag queens were the blight of their existence. Oh, they're so different. Oh, they're so scary. I don't want any part of that. And then they saw the joy that it could bring and they started to be those people. Also, it's got John Liguazamo, uh Denzel Washington, and Patrick Swayze are the drag queens. Like that movie would never be made right now.
SPEAKER_02Very typical alpha.
SPEAKER_00Yes, very strong. Yeah. And so it's like, um, I came up with that was a major motion picture when I was a kid. I don't think that things like that are even coming into the mainstream popular culture. Um, but so it's like now I'm like, I'm the two wong fu, thanks for everything, Julie Newmar, for these kids. There you go. I get to be the weird little punk rock person.
SPEAKER_02What was the you was it you and McGregor and Jim Carrey? Um, the prison one where you meant Yes, uh Philip Morris.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love you, Philip Morris. I love you, Philip Morris. That was a great movie.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And it's like, yeah, more of the like just being your authentic self. Um, one, you're going to attract the other people like that. But and I always think I'm like, it's silly to say permission, but I feel like in a culture where so much is division and fear and things like that, we do kind of feel like we need permission for a lot of so many people are dealing with anxiety disorders or neurodiversity and things like that, that they get a little bit nervous to present anything or to be awkward, to be cringe, to be I don't even know what all the words are. Yeah, no. Chuggy, chuggy. I don't know. I don't know why that's to be coochie, to be whatever. Um, but yeah, it's like so many people are nervous about um about showing up in a way that might paint them in a bad light, that they don't show up at all and they don't show up for themselves and they miss taking those chances where they could really be that.
SPEAKER_01I think uh a lot of that strims from, sadly, where a lot of people say a lot of things is social media and a lot of those ages, because a lot of those, you know, let's think about the, you know, the mid-20s in younger ages or or even in the 30s, like you you grew up in an era that everything was everywhere and it still is out there somewhere, and it's more permanent and the things spread. I mean, don't get me wrong, when things spread around the school, I felt like my whole world was crushed, you know what I mean, and everybody knew everything. But um, we were able to go home and escape from it and not have it shared. We didn't have to share with our family necessarily if we didn't want to. I didn't tell my mom every time I was bullied, you know, or had a horrible day where those things are more out there. And I think so. Then people are so shielded and scared to share themselves because they're scared to hear all the opinions. Because, as we know, no matter what, you will never please everybody. There will always be somebody that has something to say, you know, just negatively because there's those people out there that feel like they need to put others down to build themselves up. And that's just a reality. There are people like that out there and knowing that and being able to accept yourself and to accept that there's people out there like that. And if you happen to run into them, you cannot let it get to you too much. But it it's drums, that's why people are so guarded, I feel like, is it's from not having the social skills to sit down and have those hard conversations like we used to have, you know? And then also the exposure is so much bigger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, and it's wild too. Like we have the entire universe in our pockets most of the time, and people are still because of algorithms, whatever, or just because of choice. It's you know, it's almost uh uh an intentional kind of ignorance about things at this point. If you don't want to know about people, if you want to continue to have bigoted beliefs, you can find a chorus that will sing back to you. Um, and I'm like, on the on the hand of those that want to walk in the life of authenticity, it har hampers them, but it also makes them very unsafe. Like we have tons of states that are passing laws around um, what is it, the the fear, something fear, queer fear. I don't know what it's called, but they I know what you're talking about. I don't really know. I haven't heard that. No, you can you can kill a person trans or something like that. Yeah, there's that, but you can you can kill a person, you can create, you can commit homicide murder on somebody if they make you afraid with their gayness, essentially. Okay. I think I overheard that.
SPEAKER_02Like if they hit on you or something, yes, if they hit on you.
SPEAKER_00It's like a gay panic device. So I think it's called a gay panic device.
SPEAKER_01Giving those like cis white men that are those, you know, the ones who have created this horrific society of division and racism and things, it's giving them permission to act on how they want to act, basically on an emotion because somebody actually gave them a flipping compliment. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like by saying anything. So, because that's what they want to do all the time. But if a man hits on me, I'm gonna fight him. I want to beat him up, I want to kill him. And now they're giving them permission. This is just so bad. I just I worry about all the different things and changes that are happening in our society constantly. That, like, how long? I feel like like my granddaughter's not even one, and I think that she's gonna be 18 and they're still gonna be unraveling things because they're gonna be like, wow, we didn't even know that happened. Oh, we gotta unravel this to try to fix things because there's so much happening, like these stupid laws that are getting passed, you know, and people don't remember, like it becomes normal, which is horrible.
SPEAKER_00Well, and on that same note, people are, this isn't who we are. And it's like, dude, if you've been paying attention, this is exactly who we are. Right. And one of my neighbors, when kind of all all of the protections started rolling back, and um Roe vs. Wade turned around, turned around and all these things. And it's like, you know, gay marriage is next. And I was like, man, I kind of wish things could go back to normal. And my neighbor, who is the most normal, is public school math teacher. I call her socks and sandals to her face, even she knows that. But um, she's just so normal. And she said, no, no, we could never go back to a system that enabled this to happen. Burn it all down. And I was like, whoa, she's more radical than I am on this stuff. She, and she's right, is the system that we had put our foundation so loosely in place that a couple of ill-elected amoral people can start unraveling it like that. Then a man from uh South Africa can grab a bunch of 20-somethings and go into government buildings and just fire people at will and admonish the work of all of these scientists, cancel grants, cancel, you know, research. What what kind of world was that, anyways? That was it was just fake. So I'm kind of it sucks, it's scary, it's whatever. But again, I'm on the side of believing what can be instead of being afraid of what is. So I'm like, cool, keep keep destroying stuff. We'll be here to build it back up. Well you're when she's 18, tell her to come join my side. Right.
SPEAKER_01We can be in the fight together. Right, right, right, exactly. You know, I you know, I just I worry with what's happening. Hopefully things start to turn around and we start to And they are.
SPEAKER_00They are every day. There's another judge blocked accord order of sink goodness. This and this.
SPEAKER_01There's still some sanity there. There is still some goodness out there, but it's like, you know, then that's another thing we talked about this before too. But those judges that don't, we need to know who they are. We need to remember their names and we need to know that they're voted in and don't vote them in. Like we have to take take hold of a lot of this stuff on our own, which is basically getting out there and voting um to change the get the idiots that are in there out that are creating this horrific world that we're creating the division and using such divisive language.
SPEAKER_00That's a um I have two small children at home. They are twins, a boy and girl. And they are gonna live in two completely separate worlds, even though they were born within a minute of each other, because one's a boy and one's a girl.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, they're they're my children are uh I'm I'm a white person, uh, but their dad is black and Mexico. Mexican. And so my kids have tan skin, and they are who knows what their melanin is going to look like as they get older. Who knows how that stuff is going to change? Right. That I know that their future is going to be different than the twin boy neighbors that live across the street that are the exact same age. And it's kind of like all that stuff. I'm like, the girls and the boys and the brown skin kids, every this is supposed to be America. This is supposed to be like country of many different futures, all everything possible, you know, like pursuit of liberty, happiness. What happened to all that stuff?
SPEAKER_02So um well, that's in another podcast of ours, is skin color and defining your ethnicity and America's being accepted for that too.
SPEAKER_01Selling a false dream. The American Dream was a false dream. It was an advertising. It was an advertisement to get people to come to this horrible place. Like at that time, it was to get people from other countries overseas. That's what they created. The American Dream. Have you come over here and be our slaves? And then we'll give it to you sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. You'll figure it out when you get here.
SPEAKER_00Well, and even within the LGBTQ community, it's look at how much of their labor, emotional, artistic, um name of musician that isn't either somehow affiliated with LGBTQ rights, or is you know, they're probably not very cool if they're not. Like, you know, like, I don't know. There's so much of our art, so much of the things that really make our culture palpable, um, make our day-to-day livable, are people within that community. And then they're shunned for something they ultimately have no control over. Our biochemistry, our genetics, our the spectrum of our gender and sexuality. That's not stuff we choose. Right.
SPEAKER_01That's the frustrating part. It's people assume that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a choice.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. It's who you are. You know, it's who you are. It just talks.
SPEAKER_00My joke is the way that you know it's not a choice is if it were a choice, there wouldn't be all these girls with these ugly ass white guys. No, I'm sorry. I'm totally kidding. Sorry, Timber. It's all right. It's all right. But I'm like, yeah, there wouldn't, I mean, some of these straights would be playing for the other team if it was a choice. Come on, guys.
SPEAKER_02Well, isn't pride about being not only comfortable with who you are, with who you are, and learning that and feeling confident, but also having society comfortable and confident with who you are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, and it's also about celebrating the legacy of what it took to get here. Just like anything. Like there's a whole pride started as a riot. I actually, because I get to travel for work, I was in New York um just before I was in New York on the anniversary of Stonewall um last year or two ago. And I got to go there before they started taking on the flags, before they started removing the monuments around it. It was ah, and I spent a lot of time in Gay R's, uh, because that's just the kind of person I am. So to be there, I was like, oh, this is yeah, it's a monument to this thing that happened, but it's also just a community hub. It was like me hanging out, just kind of like ear hustling, which is what I do when I go to the bar. Um, but so I'm like sitting around ear hustling, and the gal next to me just starts being like, Do you know what this word is? And she's just playing a crossword on her phone, drinking her red wine after work. And I was like, as much as this is a touchstone and a pilgrimage that a lot of people make to get to that place where such amazing history happened. It's also just a place where uh a trans woman is just gonna hang out and do a crossword and drink red wine. It's also a place where people are regulars and hanging out and playing pool. And it was that was just to me something where I was like, oh, this is the through line. Like these people did all of this, they threw bricks, the Marsha P. Johnson's, the, you know, um, all those people did what they did so that we could have that normalcy so that it was not just celebrated, but also commonplace. Like that's the kind of some of that ultimate goal. And even nowadays with um Pride in the Twin Cities one, they've got a huge kind of focus on removing cops from pride because guess what? That's not what the idea is, not to have police there.
SPEAKER_02Um pride was against that before. Do we want them there for help, for protection, or re worry? Because I mean there could be retaliation.
SPEAKER_00Retaliation, I could see, but also but police are uh, and this is my opinion. And I mean, don't don't at me for this if you're not again not with it. But I'm like, police are here to protect property nine times out of ten. Um, police are not there to protect people. Like, name one single crime that's ever been prevented because a police officer showed up. Like, no, they come after the fact, they come after something's already happened, and a lot of times they're instigating violence. And in the Twin Cities, we saw that a ton during the ice raids that were happening this winter is protests are happening, people are standing there advocating for their First Amendment rights, and the police show up in full riot gear. A bunch of people, a bunch of people are standing there with their cell phones and a whistle, and they show up with riot gear and pepper spray. What are we supposed to do other than feel threatened and start to potentially react? Our lizard brains can't handle that. So at Pride, when people are seeing those kind of oppressive forces coming in, it doesn't make us say, oh, cool, good. The police are here. We're safe against those January 6th mafia-looking mouths over there. No, we're like, they're on the same side. Like they're not here to stop them, they're here to continue to curtail our First Amendment speech, they're here to erase our history. So um, that's something here in the Twin Cities that is a very big touch point. We've got some just exclusively queer security forces, like Sequity is one. And that's nice.
SPEAKER_02I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, I actually know the person that started it up, really cool human being. And she also uh does gun safety classes because that's the fun part is if you go far enough to the left, you get your guns back. Um, so she does gun safety and then runs to Queery. Um, and so there's just like there's things like that that altern there's alternative ways of being and doing that people might not have thought of or they might have been too scared to pursue. And it's like maybe a 20-something might not be able to do this, but these old ass lesbians, they got a crew and they're able to throw down and get a bunch of people in it. Um, and so it's yeah, it's it's cool to see what alternative ways of doing things could look like. And then it's possible. And if it doesn't work, try something else, but don't just keep being like, well, let's just get bring the police back. Um, and also it's you know, oh, if this crowd is making people come and show up to be uh like ill-will agitators, that's the agitators that need to leave. We don't need to minimize pride to make it safe so that the agitators can be there. Like they can go have their own thing, they've got oh have another month of the year to do stuff. We get we get one one weekend in the park. Come on, let us let us have our boobs out. But I don't know, that's that's a different park.
SPEAKER_01That's a different park. Yeah, I you know, I actually I've I've heard uh speaking of that talk about let's let us have our boobs out, effort pride on there. I've heard both ways, like you know, the free, the freeness and being able to do that and walk around and to um be able to express yourself freely, but also there is some nudity that ends up coming along with that. And then I've heard other people talk about how for family type where they're like it's gotten too out of hand. Like I'd like to be able to have a be able to bring my family as well to it. And I think sometimes it, you know, it could be you have kids. Yeah. What's your opinion on this?
SPEAKER_00Oh goodness, don't let my mom hear this. Um, so okay, I do believe, and there's again to each their own. Uh, don't even at me about this, but uh pride is also there is that element of celebrating kink. It is where people can come out and find their community and find their family in that. And just like dressing a certain way and presenting in the world in a certain way is how you can attract them in those kink communities. It's the same thing. They are behind closed doors a lot of times. They might have message boards and stuff, but that anonymity can also lead to a lack of safety. When you're in the park, dressed as a dog on a leash, wearing nothing but um, you know, some kind of leather apparatus on your bottom. Um, you're vulnerable in a way, but you're also safer in a way because your entire community is around you. You're not meeting some random person at a bar and being like, yo, you want to go back and do puppy play or whatever your thing might be, or be a furry together. You have the safety in numbers in that moment. So, yes, I do think that there's, I think that there's a huge place for kink and pride to live synonymously. And I think there's also a lot of family-friendly things in our family. While my child body shades me, my story before we started was uh Thought Harrow, he was like, uh mom, you need to cover up your butt before you go to work. Cool. Um, but we're a very body positive family. And I every child, every person gets to develop on the path that they are. Some parents are more vocal about that stuff and laying it out in a way that kids understand. My kids very much understand that some people have two moms, two dads, whatever, and might be into something. My kids understand that body parts exist and things like that. When they see, let's say, puppy play, that's just one that's on my mind. I have a client that does that. And um, and when if they were to see something like that, they wouldn't see it as a sexualized thing. They would say, that guy likes dressing up like a dog. And like, yeah, you know what? Yeah. Oh, that girl isn't wearing pants. Yep, that girl isn't, hey, that girl is a man. Yep, that girl is a man. Like they, it is just so normal. Um, because we're meeting them where they're at on their understanding. I'm not gonna be like, yes, and he likes to bow, no, no, it's you know, finding where it is. And so I think there's a way to talk about it with kids. And I think that each, every child is gonna have their own boundaries around it and their own understanding and um mental capacity and emotional understanding for it. But I definitely am like to stigmatize the kink aspect of pride or to remove that entirely because it makes it feel unsafe when in in the true nature of being into those things, they are unsafe regularly. Like, this is the one time where they get to kind of be that person out loud in the world. Um, we need to make it safe for them, not not practice victimhood ourselves and center ourselves around that. Um, if it's not our cup of tea. And especially as parents, like your kid might be into puppy place someday. Let them arf, arf in the park. Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_02Well, as kids, we get taught the bill of rights almost right away. And that's a freedom of choice and freedom of expression. I mean, wouldn't that cover what you're talking about? I mean, that's that's that's absolutely what if the if a kid asks that, yeah, what it what's going on here is well, they're that it's their choice, it's it's their freedom to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And they have every right to do it.
SPEAKER_00And they have out of the autonomy, like they get to make those choices. And it's not for us to judge. Right. That too. That's part of the Bill of Rights as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So it I mean, I think that it comes from the parenting, from the home. It comes from that, like to to for those who really develop that, not everybody, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everybody, but that develop that deep empathy for others and that compassion for others, it's because they were taught at home from the beginning that, you know, no matter what, if they're look different, act different, are different, whatever, they're still the same.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they're still, you know, you still be nice, you still be kind, you don't be mean, you know. Um, like I said multiple times, you know, you put a group of three, two, three-year-olds in a room, they don't care what anybody looks like. No, you know, that's up as long. No one's born racism or not.
SPEAKER_02No, where they're all friends, they'll play together. They don't they're not. Right.
SPEAKER_01They just need a friend, you know, and someone to play with. And I think that's where that that does start to have those conversations to say, you know, no, they're okay, everybody's fine. Yeah, so what? And not make a big deal out of things. That's where it gets really traumatic. Like, is when they make a big deal out of it. And that's what changes for kids.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think a lot of parents maybe don't have language for it. And I I'm a different kind of person. I was uh my mom was really close to us, and she went back to school to get a degree in psychology when I was a kid. And one of her classes was a gender studies um sexuality class, and I'll never forget, I probably I want to say I was like second or third grade, but we knew the birds and the bees. It wasn't like too far off. Most parents will be like, Your mom was watching what? Um, but we one of her assigned movies was to watch the crying game. And she wasn't like, hey, let's all sit around and watch it, but we were poor kids. We had one TV, our playroom was down there, so it was on while we were on, while we were playing. And uh, so the crying game is what is on. We're seeing it casually. And if you spoiler alert, there's a scene in which somebody reveals themselves to not have female genitalia after dating somebody as a woman for a long time. And I just remember going, Mom, that lady has a penis. And my mom, matter of fact, she goes, Yep, some women have penises, some men have vaginas. The world is filled with all kinds of different things. It's just how it is. And she just kept watching the movie, and that was it. And it was so just matter of fact, not a big deal. Um, that's how it is, kind of a thing. And that was unbeknownst to me. That's not how the rest of the world learned about trans people.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, but it was very, and uh, some of my friends growing up were intersex. So when they were, oh yeah, I was I I feel like I'm a woman, but I was, you know, I was, I grew this penis. Right. Um, and now that per one of them particularly lives as a woman completely far away and grew a whole new identity and everything. But I always remember them like kind of grappling with this of like, what if I was supposed to be a girl? And I'm like, it was cool that they had the ability to talk about that stuff. But at the same time, how many people are don't even get the familiarity with the concepts of it of intersex or trans because their family maybe doesn't have the capacity to talk about it? Like I'm super I say all the time like I'm really privileged with like emotional uh communication within my family. But um, but yeah, I just I when you're talking about it too, it's just like how many kids don't get exposed to that stuff and in a healthy way.
SPEAKER_02I got exposed to it when I was really young. I remember that was uh in the movie the another movie, Kiss of the Spider Woman.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Classic movie. Now like it's been years since I've seen it. All I know is it's a prison movie, and I think one of the inmates is trans or going through transition, um, or is identifies in a different gender. But to me it was normal. It's like there was no question, like, mom, did that exist? No, it's just how it is. I think I was just brought up in an inclusive enough family that you know I it was accepted, or we kind of talked about it, but it was it uh I mean it's a drama, it's a very, very serious movie. Um, but it wasn't making fun or light of a situation or critical of the situation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it was I think it exposed me to that in enough at an early age that make it make it a a social acceptance and awareness of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it feels like we're almost like going backwards as a society on that kind of stuff about um like making it a spectacle, like uh the genner family situation where i I feel like everybody just because you can say something online, just because you have the ability to use a voice, does not mean you have to. Right. Like your hot take is not is not some something I need to see. And I feel like so many people they want a grandstand about whatever thing they have. Where if something like that came out these days, it would be, can you believe this thing? Like, dude, no, like you don't need to talk about right, right.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that's also, you know, from back in the times, once again, horrible social media and all of that as well, because people are they can say it and run and not say anything else, you know, before they can block you, they don't have to worry about it, you know, they can be as mean as they want to be to people without having to do it in someone's face. It's totally different to be rude and to be mean to somebody's face than to just send a message and call it a day and you know, and cause those those damages that it does and impact. But um, that's why I think a lot of yeah, where a lot of it comes from, sadly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That anonymity.
SPEAKER_02Isn't it important to continue to educate yourself too? I mean, uh for the for a person on the outside of that group.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, I was educated not too long ago because I I made a whole lot of assumptions about the LGBT community, not nothing negative or anything like that, but everything that I got taught, everything that I knew, ended up being complete most of it was completely wrong.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_02And I had to completely rewire my brain and reform my thinking, even an acceptance of a of the new situation that I was put in. And it was really gratifying.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say, and you don't know what you don't know.
SPEAKER_02No, right, and so you can go in with misconceptions and then yeah, and I acted on my misconceptions and and my incorrect thoughts and incorrect knowledge, and that hurt the person till we actually we we came we we came together and we actually got much closer on it. And I'm very, very grateful for that situation because I completely, completely changed my mind.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was uh experience that enlightened you.
SPEAKER_02It it really, it really, really did.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's awesome. Um, that is uh one of the things like you were saying, uh continuing education in my industry. Uh there's been a big shift because again, I've been doing hair for 20 years, and we had uh 20 years ago, it was there's men's and women's cuts. There's salon and barbershop. There's not a lot of crossover in that. Right. Um my salon, my former salon, Foxden Salon in Uptown, we were the first salon in Minnesota. We were one of the first salons in America to be like, we do non-gendered language in our space. We do non-gendered pricing. Pricing is based on hair length, the time of appointment, what type of appointment. It's not based on if you're a guy or girl. Um, and that was something that was different. And I tell my staff that, and they're like, that was like what, 20 years ago? I was like, that was like 10 years. Like, this is new. Right. Um, but we have within my industry, there's a there's the dress code project, which uh works within hair industries for there's safe in my chair, which is exclusively a trans rights organization for elevating knowledge about um providing services to trans people and using inclusionary language. There is Hair Has No Gender, which is out of uh Chicago. There's a Logan Parlor salon. It's um led by Jamie Garcia. She's uh they're a non-binary person that does styling and trains all over, and you can get ongoing education, not just about the language, but also about um some like non-binary cutting things, things that are in trend for people that maybe don't live by the binary or just be like, I want long layers, I want this. Um, so that you can not only learn language, but also learn haircutting around it and learn to advance our skill set in our skills. So there's all these cool programs that are coming out. Um, but again, they're five, 10 years old and trans people and gay people and non-binary, they've been around for a lot longer than that. So thinking about what people are up against and also uh going back to like representation at Pride when people are, oh, I don't want to see all that, thinking about seeing like gay men particularly who participate in all that stuff. And uh, like this is their these are reminders about our history. And so it's like even when we're doing that kind of stuff, knowing that it's only been five or 10 years, thinking about how many trans clients I have that are much older than that, that have been getting hair services and had to maybe um mask or you know, pretend to identify or aren't out even to their stylus and at work or in their families, is wild. It's wild.
SPEAKER_02Well, I like that you teach that in your salon too, and you teach people how to have the business that does that as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And oh, run their business and how do accept that that's what you're telling us earlier, right?
SPEAKER_00Yep, yeah. And we, yeah, we do uh so mine's a commission salon, so we do ongoing education to help build people up in that and um to help, I mean, broaden broaden the horizons of like what salons could be, I guess, in that realm too, because it is something where everybody that works there at the time, they're they're commission stylists, a lot of them are coming right out of school. And it's a huge draw for them that it can be a place that's safe, but it's kind of a bigger one that they can continue to get educated about these issues in a safe, meaningful way too. And that it's not, we're not doing it to be on trend. It's genuinely something that we really care about. It's something that we identify with, it's something that we've been harmed from. It's something that a lot of us, I mean, how many people have gone into a place and been like, I want that cut? And then you get not that cut. But when it's something that you go in and you say, I want that cut, and they say, Oh, but you would look really better with something so much more feminine, and they give you a completely different kind of gender cut, that's a whole nother ball of wax. So um, being able to like train people to that and to not even say, like, oh, this is this is gonna make your face look thinner, like the um, it's like, oh, you're saying masculine, so more square shapes.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you're saying feminine, oh, so more rounded, maybe, you know, and like using that kind of like I got taught that I was I went to ASOP for getting some cologne and stuff like that, and I asked for more masculine scent, which is usually more musky or sandalwood, even on the lighter side, but I don't and I hate saddlewood for perfume. Um, but but I was corrected very sternly. No, you don't say that one.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. And that's and and that's the other is like when you're corrected with like a gentle nudge of like calling in instead of calling them out.
SPEAKER_02It was more than subtle, but it was gentle.
SPEAKER_00It was yeah, as I talk a lot to at my team, I'm like, we're we're gonna be high communication, we're gonna be um assuming positive intent, and we're gonna be calling people in instead of calling them out. It's never like, oh, don't say masculine. Uh it's always like, oh, we actually don't say that. Here are some words that we use instead. Or, you know, modern language has evolved. Let's do it like this and see how that feels.
SPEAKER_02So why does representation matter for society and with everybody?
SPEAKER_00Why does representation matter? Let's absolutely I was gonna say, do you guys like that?
SPEAKER_02We got a couple tough questions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it matters for everybody, no matter who it is. Reputation, it I mean, because we all are different but the same. And if we're not recognized, which is exactly what that is, then people don't understand and they don't then they don't accept it. And that's where the divisions and things end up coming, you know. Like there's people who live in towns that don't have any, you know, LGBTQ community that are out. And um, because most of them are out that I love that yeah, asterisk. Yes, yes. And uh they have no idea what about it. And it's like a shameful language to tell. Well, that's why we need to get it out and have representation to show.
SPEAKER_00And something uh you had touched on earlier, if I can paraphrase what you were talking about earlier, we were having a chat about this, but when people are being divisive, using divisive language, especially in the major media, it's putting everyone in these boxes. And I was like, that's so so true. Is like when we have that representation, my whole thing is like, yeah, you can put me in a box, but I'm in a lot of boxes. Right. And when we see that representation, I came from I'm like again, elder millennial where like queer is just, I'm just queer. I'm not, I don't need to be a pansexual, gender flu, blah, blah. Just call me queer and it's fine. Um, but we got really, we wanted to get away from all those labels and all that little teeny nitpicky stuff. And then I watched these Gen Z kids come after and really identify with those little teeny labels. And it drove me crazy. But then I realized that like within all that, they were able to find these niche communities and kind of band together. Whereas the queer people were or people, you know, that were kind of anti-labels, a lot of it was about banding together in just a big, broad, big tent thing. And so I think that that representation of being able to find your hyper specific thing, it also you're still in a lot of boxes and you're still finding a lot of different people. And it's all about creating like that interconnectivity. So it's like if you're not having representation, if you're not being that person, showing up for the world and attracting that, you're never gonna find it. And you're not gonna find people that will stand up with you when things kind of go to shit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, what would you like our listeners to take away from this conversation and then uh any advice for any LGBTQ plus oh man individuals or even allies.
SPEAKER_00Um closing off here in a little bit. Yeah. Um, what do I want people to take away? Um be be the person that you wish that you had in the world because you are already probably are that person to somebody and you might not know it. And be that person for yourself because whatever you say in your mind becomes who you are. So when you say it out loud, when you say it in your brain, your words become your actions, your actions become who you are, and that is all you have. So be that person, be authentic to it, and be it all the time and love yourself. Um, and if you're an ally or you're an LGBTQ person, especially teens, man, it's hard. Um, I know there are so many people out there that are doing the like, it gets better. It doesn't get better unless you work it and unless you like show up for yourself in meaningful ways and take rest when you need to take rest and not take things super seriously. The world is gonna try to get you down, but like, yeah, it gets better, but it gets better because you did the work. And so my thing is always gonna be like manifest that life you want and then actually take steps towards it. So that is my that is my oh and get and get your hair done by fabulous queers in my shop. Give us all your money.
SPEAKER_02We'll make sure to put your the link for your salon in there in our feed too. But thank you, Sika. Thank you so much for what you shared today. That was really beautiful.
SPEAKER_01I hope it was coherent. It was fantastic, great, yeah. I I really appreciate it. And I love, like I said, I love that the story is one more about bringing people together and for people to have an understanding. And it's not always uh trauma bonds that bring people together necessarily, it's just people living joyfully that brings them together. So, yes.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you again. Thanks, Selena, for hosting with me as always. And thank you, everybody. Please be sure to check out our website, discopodcast.com, and disco.podcast on Instagram. You'll you'll find all the links for for where you can find our podcasts, both in audio and video format. So please like and comment and everything. Remember, love is love.
SPEAKER_01And yes, and be kind, and we can't wait to see you next time.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, everybody. Have a beautiful day.
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