Batman

We turn our attention to Gotham’s brooding vigilante: Batman. From his trauma-fuelled drive to his obsessive need for control, Ellen and Andrew explore whether Bruce Wayne is a leader, or simply a micromanager in a cape. Is Batman’s servant-leadership really self-sacrifice, or just vengeance disguised as virtue? Does he inspire teams like the Justice League, or fracture them through mistrust and emotional repression?

Along the way, we debate Batman’s role as a situational leader, question if Bruce Wayne is really the mask, and ask the ultimate question: would you want to work for him? Spoiler - probably not.

Scathing, insightful, and occasionally sympathetic, this episode unpacks what leaders can learn from the Dark Knight—mostly by showing us what not to do.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Okay, let's do this thing, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Let's do this.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Are you who's doing the intro?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Do you do you want to do it? I think I've done the intro the last few times. Do you want to do it?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

No. You do it. Oh, we do it. Batman, I need you to do it.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Oh god. Alright. Um okay. Well, welcome everyone to the Leadership Multiverse, the podcast where we explore the bold, bizarre, and brilliant leadership of your favourite sci-fi and superhero characters. We'll be asking, what kind of leader are they? Would you want to work for them? And how do they handle pressure, power, and a galaxy's worth of responsibility? And today we are doing Batman.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I'm Batman. The Dark Knight. Oh, do you know what? The fella's we don't even need to do a backstory on Batman. You know, when when like with Jean-Louis Picard, we had to have like give his whole bio who is he, how's he got here? Everybody knows. Everybody knows Batman, don't they? Everybody knows where he's come from.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

We hope so. Yeah, well, yeah. Orphaned billionaire child becomes superhero.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I think that's kind of sounds a lot like my own biography, to be honest, thinking about it. Yeah, apart from being orphaned, a billionaire, and a superhero. Apart from that, boy, boy, boy becomes man. It's like it's like it's like we're the same person, honestly. I am Bruce Wade. Boy grows up, becomes man. So Batman. Right. Now we should clarify because there are so many incarnations of this character on screen and and arguably, you know, it in book format. Who are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Possibly should have discussed this before.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

We should have had this conversation beforehand. Are we talking about Michael Keaton or are we talking about umish?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

I actually watched Batman Forever the other day, but in none of my notes do I reference Batman Forever. I was looking mostly at like Dark Knight Justice League films. So like the the f so the latest films, but with a bit of Michael Keaton, God, George Clooney. Do you remember that George Clooney one?

SPEAKER_01 3:02

I remember it. I watch it every week. I watch it every week. Honestly, it's my favourite. I tried to think I've only watched it once when it came out, and that was it. I think which is true of everybody, I think. Okay, so we're talking.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Um well, is that what you want to talk about, or did you do a deep dive in the the 1960s TV?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Well, I was gonna say I've just done a big critique on Adam West. That was it, that's what I was. That was it, Adam West. Who quite frankly never seemed to have any emotional problems whatsoever, just seemed to be a happy go-lucky playboy who happened to solve some crimes. I mean, he was like, yeah. So, okay. Okay, so okay, that's who we're talking about. Right, okay. That's fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

If you want, if you want to, you can talk about Adam West or Michael Keaton. You're quite a big fan of the Michael Keaton ones, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

I love Michael Keaton as Batman. I loved Michael Keaton. Well, you know, when was that? 89? I yeah, okay. Yeah, and then with with Michelle Pfeiffer in '92, um, Batman Returns, and and they were gonna he was gonna do more, wasn't he? But then creative differences meant that he he didn't carry on the character. He he he was gonna he was in for the long haul, apparently. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but he was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then it all kind of just it all just stopped. And then it was the George Clooney one, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 4:24

But that was he was how many did he do? Two? Did he do one or two? No, one was it Batman and Robin or was it Batman? Batman and Robin, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Batman and Robin with the Mr.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Freeze character and Two Face and Um Ivy Poison Ivory?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Poison Ivy through they threw them all into oh wasn't that and the Joker was in that as well, wasn't he? The guy off Jack Nicholson. No, no, no. Jack Nicholson is the oh not the Joker, the Riddler.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Oh no, um uh Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey. So they're all in that film, they're all just thrown into that one movie. Yeah, they had a lot in that one. God, they threw that away, didn't they? Didn't Michael Keaton come back in is it Flash?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Flash going to come back uh two years ago, it came back as Flash a couple of years ago. It was good, it was good. I I thought it was a good uh cameo. Uh okay, okay. So we're talking about the the deep and dark um character that is Bruce Wayne, that is Batman, because rather than the happy go lucky, I'm wearing my pants on the outside of my trousers, Adam West character. Right, good, excellent check. Batman. It's interesting when you threw this one up. I thought, no, why are we talking about Batman in a leadership context? So and then I did some research. I'm like, ah, okay, I get a little bit of what she's talking about here. Talk me through why why Batman.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Um well, should we go into his leadership style? Because he does he does have a leadership style. And it's really sad.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Go for it, talk us through it. Tem let me and let me under let me understand. Go on.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

It's really sad. Like I feel sadness in my bones for him. I just want to give him a hug. That's his leadership style, needs a hug.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Great. Pity for pity. Is that even a leadership style? Pity for leadership. Yeah. Leadership by pity. Go on. Why do you say that?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

But he well, I mean, obviously, he's driven by the death of his parents, not dissimilar to Tony Stark, but I do, I have a little bit about why they are actually quite different. Um but I mean he leads very much from isolation, um, and you do actually interestingly see a bit of that play out when he's in a team dynamic. He doesn't really have charisma, not in the same way that say Superman does. He doesn't stand up and give great big speeches. I'd argue that he does inspire, but not by rallying the troops, so to speak. Um he is driven by fear, not trust. We see that throughout the films, um, even with the people he trusts the most, like Alfred, he still doesn't he doesn't bring him in to sort of his Batcave, should we say? Metaphor, the metaphorical Batcave.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Metaphorical Batcave, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Sounds a bit dodgy actually.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Um he's very he's very calculating, very tactical. Um but his just his motivation is it's dark, it's dark, hence the dark night. Um, but that's the point of him, that's his leadership style. Um it comes from control. So, you know, arguably he does operate alone for the most part, and that's definitely where he's most comfortable. But you see all these they're negative traits, but you see them play out in a group dynamic where uh and when he's with Robin actually as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

What do you think? Do you agree?

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Uh yeah, no, I see, I see what you're saying. I do, I do. Um it's interesting because yeah, he definitely has He definitely has a leadership kind leadership characteristics. I absolutely see that. I think his whole but if we talk broader than character, I think his whole oh I'm sorry, broader than leadership rather, his whole character is born out of trauma. Trauma. That that one significant uh event in his life, in his boyhood, then has this continual uh effect on him and an impact on how he is and with people and who he is with people. Uh and I think you know, actually, and and and how you see that, you know, it it manifests in things like hyper control, you know, preparedness, uh, you know, losing his parents. Obviously, you know, that that uh theme doesn't matter which iteration of the movies we're we're we're we're watching, you know, losing his parents makes him feel powerless, and his response is control. It's control over himself, control of his environment. Arguably he tries to control everyone around him. Um and then when and then you know and and you know and and to that to that extent, he's a bit of a micromanager. He's a micromanager.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Batman is a micromanager, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

He's not in that sense, he's he he's not a leader, he's a micromanager. There you go. That's end of. That's it, in my opinion. He just he he disempowers people.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

And when he can't go on no, I was saying when he can't control, he distances himself. So Batman Begins starts with him returning to Wayne Manor after he'd been away for however many years, you know, when he was in with that when he was training with Razel Ghoul, I think. And then after Dark Knight, yeah. And then after Dark Knight, when um Rachel dies, he then goes away for like eight years between Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises. Yeah, so he just shuts himself off, which arguably, if you were a leader and something didn't go your way and you were like, I'm off for a few years, guys, I'll be back when I feel a bit better.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

That's yeah, yeah, he he has no emotional transparency at all. The block is I mean, detached is an understatement. I mean, you know, and actually, yeah, and and so I I think he has no emotional intelligence. He has no emotional intelligence at all. At all. I don't blame the guy, by the way. I'm not saying no, I'm not blaming the guy. This is not a critique of his of who he is, but I understand the way he is, but that that lack of of him of emotional intelligence uh leads to, I think, you know, you see that with people, you know, the you can't say it is if you think about not the Justice League, but if you just think about the Batman un um world, you know, I think the people he works with, um Batman uh works with Robin, uh Batgirl, is it Batgirl?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Oh yeah, Barbara Gordon, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Um because Robin becomes Nightwing.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

No, not Barbara Gordon, sorry, the other one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is Barbara Gordon. Is it Barbara Gordon? I'm sure I can't quite remember now, but no, Alfred's oh whoever, yeah, Batgirl. Whatever, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Selena Kyle, he works with Selena Kyle, he works with her. Um, you know, Alfred. Actually, not Alfred, but the rest of them, particularly Robin.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Actually, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

unknown 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

There's often a lot of resentment in the relationships. There's often a lot of misunderstandings. There's a lot and actually this is true of the Justice League as well. You know, he he he he isn't an empathetic uh leader. He's not an uh he's not really an emp th that's one of the one of the kind of paradoxes of of his character is that he's there to save Gotham and he sees Gotham I think this is why he's quite a good systems thinker. He sees the system that is Gotham, he talks about it all the time. If you gotta if we don't if we don't save Gotham, the city you know, everything, everything falls. But he's only a good systems thinker to a point. Anything sort of below first or second level systems thinking, as in the human level, you don't care. Not in yes, he'll save a human life. He sees the value of a human life, he doesn't see the value of human engagement and human interaction.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

No, well I suppose, and that's driven by his trauma, because why would he? Because everyone around him dies, basically.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's a stumbling block. I mean, fair enough. I mean that's quite a big issue.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

No judgment, no judgment to to poor Bruce, but yeah, it's what it's what drives him.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Um so I mean, arguably, he is a servant leader, he is a servant leader in so much as he puts Gotham's needs above his own. You know, he sacrifices, he sacrifices his reputation. We see that in the Dark Knight. He's willing to be the bad guy. You know, he's quite willing to be the bad guy to serve that kind of concept of greater good. So he does absolutely have moral conviction, but but that servant leadership leads to burnout, he disappears routinely, isolationism, emotional repression, a lack of any kind of transparency, over control, but micromanagement. The guy is he's just a textbook um yeah, textbook micromanager, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah, but but I think that servant leadership piece is important because whilst those are all very negative leadership traits, he is driven by good because his his his aim, right, is to like eradicate crime from Gotham. That's ultimately what his aim is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

But why? Because of self-interest, because crime is what?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Well, yes, because crime is what took well, yes, there is that. Crime is what took his parents from him. Um but then yeah, you say there is self-sacrifice there, or is that or or do you think that is still linked to vengeance?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

No, I think that probably I think that is probably more of an evolution of his leadership style. I think the reality, I don't think you would see that willingness to be the villain of the piece. I don't think you would see that uh in Batman Begins, you know, um you wouldn't see that. It's only when you get to the dark knight. And he has some really engagement with authority that he trusts. He doesn't trust authority at all, which is somewhat ironic for uh you know it given you know we're talking about him being in a in a leadership position. He doesn't trust authority, and actually when he meets um uh Gordon, yeah, that and he sees that there is some decency uh in the humanity in the authorities within Gotham that he begins to sort of I I think concede um concede to his own humanity, but it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a small gap in his armour, you know, it doesn't last long because then he disappears.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yeah, I think he trusts to a point, but then he gets sort of triggered and that triggering clouds his judgment. It's kind of like I suppose if you had a boss who suddenly started doing alright, and then one thing happened that put them into a blind rage and then they kind of reverted and flipped to how they had been. I suppose it's a bit like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think also, you know, um, he doesn't lead by example, he's a workaholic. He's a workaholic, uh he works all the time, you know, uh both as you know Bruce Wayne and as Batman. He's con you know, he models relentless uh you know, this concept of relentless self-sacrifice, uh, but he never ever models balance, recovery, you know, self-focus. He actually doesn't focus on self-care at all. At all.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

True. Alf but but actually Alfred is that that piece, I think, the self-care. Alfred is there for the self-care.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

No, oh, I like that. No, I actually want to do a separate Alfred, uh, a separate Alfred, separate separate episode about uh Alfred Pennyworth because I actually think he is a far better leader. The characteristic the characteristics that he demonstrates are in complete, not probably intentionally, are like a complete juxtaposition to Batman. He is the yin and the yang, he is the ballot, he is the balance that Bruce Wayne requires, even if Bruce Wayne does never see it. Uh and all and in the in the story arc it's always delivered as you know um you know as you know the the butler storyline or the servant storyline or the you know the much more than that, it's far cleverer than that. And so I would like us to look at him in more detail.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Because if you not to go too much into the alphabet, but if but Alfred's background, didn't he serve with Bruce Wayne's dad in a war? I think so they have got that bond. I've seen that yeah, the show, I've seen a bit of it, yeah, yeah. Brilliant, yeah, that is good, yeah, that is great, yeah. Um yeah, no, but don't yeah, I'd agree. And we talk a lot about our our superhero type leaders and them having emotional anchor points. Um, I mean, I know we're doing Captain Kirk next week, but boat we always talk about bones being his anchor point. Yeah, um I mean when we looked at Iron Man, I mean he sort of had pepper pots a little bit there with the emotional side slightly, but I do think it's important, yeah, and spy oh yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

And actually, if we oh go on, I think we're about to make the same point. I think we're about to make the same point. Picking up on that piece, you know Batman and Robin, you know, everyone says, oh, Batman and Robin. But actually, Robin Oh right, he doesn't feature he doesn't feature in uh the um the the Dark Med trilogy, but and he doesn't swell s slightly.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

He's not not as he's not a superhero, like he's not yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

And and and so but in what movies does he feature as Robin?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Just bat is it just Batman and Robin?

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Does he want does the guy rock up as um Nightwing in any doesn't he turn up in the Justice League as Nightwing?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Oh, oh maybe. I can tell we've done our research.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Well, no, but my point is this, right? I mean it's is Batman a mentor in the Adam West version of Batman from the 1960s, hundred percent, hundred percent in the 1960s TV series. Adam Batman is a mentor to young Robin. But um really, you know, this whole concept of Batman, you know, dynamic duo, it doesn't exist. He's not a mentor.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

No, I think so. I think as time goes on, if we look at the Justice League films, I think there is a bit of growth, not to the point where I'm gonna say he's a mentor, but if you look at his relationship with The Flash, for example, um Barry Barry, I think it's called. Um, there is I mean, he doesn't trust him, and I he's not warm, he's not emotional. Um, but he does support him, um, and he does kind of support some of the others. Again, not not being a mentor, but with um what like with Wonder Woman, he kind of builds up something of a rapport. But is he a mentor? Um, I think he's got a long way to go to being an actual mentor. And I don't think he would embrace it. Um I mean, when he actually I've I've got the quote here, when he goes to visit the Flash, he says to him, I'm putting together a team. This is in Justice League, people with special abilities, I believe enemies are coming. And the Flash says, I need friends, and Bruce Wayne goes, Great.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yeah. Yeah. So he's quite practical.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

I think he's quite he's quite practical. He's very practical. I I think he's quite practical about not even mentoring, succession planning, probably, and the acknowledgement that you do need other people, but he's not doing it out of any sense of we need to work as a team.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

No, I don't think he's not a team, he's not a he's not a team, he's not a team leader because he's not a team player.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

No, he reluctantly participates in a team, but yeah, he's not a team player.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

And in those in those contexts of the Justice League. he is he is at his best when he is complimented by it's it's bizarre it's bizarre to talk about superman and humanity but when he's complimented by the humanity of superman um and the empathy of Wonder Woman you know which you know because without that you know he is so deficient of emotional intelligence he's so deficient in in any kind of strength of leadership character that without those to compliment him to compliment his skill set I mean he's not really recognised as the is he the leader of the Justice League I don't I mean he he plays a semi Nick Fury role in terms of trying to bring them together I wouldn't say I mean we could do a whole episode on Justice League I wouldn't say he's the leader really um who is then if it's not him Superman Superman's the face of them so like I said like I said I mean Batman doesn't give the speeches he sits in the corner grumbling going I'm Batman whereas Superman is the one who's who's charismatic and war or warmer and stands up and I'm laughing because I realise I realise through the this conversation and how we're talking about his character how right the uh how the the writers of Lego Batman how they got it spot on.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

They got his character so spot on honestly as did as did the writers in the film Super Pets which I've had to watch several times over the last couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yes absolutely yeah yeah he's yeah but yeah but that is yeah yeah um right oh so what I was gonna say before actually I wanted to ask you a question right are Batman and Bruce Wayne the same I think if Batman didn't exist Bruce Wayne would be a serial killer bold yeah I like yeah I I they absolutely are the same they absolutely are the same in the in fact I think Bruce in fact I would argue Bruce Wayne is the is the mask yes I oh yeah I would I would a hundred percent I yeah Batman is the real the real identity I think Bruce Wayne is his altered ego I think Bruce Wayne is the altered ego it's he's not comfortable in it he doesn't embrace it he doesn't want it it serves a purpose it gives him what he needs to be who he truly is I don't think yeah I think that is his alter ego and I I do think that if he didn't have an outlet uh that that was uh that is Batman I think Bruce Wayne would be I think you could see Bruce Wayne being a villain of the piece Batman is he's a bit of an anti-hero really um so I suppose you're saying if there was no if there was no Batman no no mask then Bruce Wayne would just be out of control yeah we we see it particularly in the Dark Knight trilogy Bruce Wayne is this sort of kind of flashy guy you know he buys restaurants he buys yachts with whole Royal Opera House ballerinas on it he's showy but that's that is a facade isn't it and I mean we see it even the way even the way he is he's a bit standoffish with people and I know Batman is a bit standoffish but he's more in a a kind of rugged grumbly way whereas Bruce Wayne is very much more of a well I'm Bruce Wayne I have 12 million dollars you know go go over there funny little poor person like they say like they say it's like looking in the mirror honestly looking in the mirror yeah um so yeah that's my that's my take on it yeah yeah no because I mean if and and actually that's a contrast between DC and Marvel because they we don't know the or you know people the public in Justice League in Batman and Superman they don't know the true identities of these people whereas in the Avengers they know that Iron Man is Tony Stark um they know Steve Rogers is strange yeah yeah maybe with the exception of Peter Parker although he is revealed as an Ian one of the Spider-Man that's right yeah but they we see their kind of personalities merge so they I suppose evolve as one whereas you've got Bruce Wayne who's trying to get over the death of his parents and you've got Batman who's trying to be the superhero and I don't think they're on the same traject trajectory as leaders. Yeah as leaders absolutely absolutely and I think as a result because they then are adopting these duo personalities yeah I think the result is that as a as a group they're they they're not uh rather as individuals they're not as coherent they're not as put together and therefore they as a Justice League isn't as put together as the Avengers no and that's maybe that's why we don't know who the leader is as well. Because we exactly because we don't know spot on we can't really genuinely articulate who is the leader of the Justice League because actually they're nowhere the the individual weaknesses or strengths of character are undermined by this their true selves.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

This the the masks that they're constantly wearing yeah oh yeah yeah yeah because we see I mean we see bat well I'm gonna call him yeah we see Batman is he doesn't trust anyone he doesn't trust anything he even is so mistrustful of Superman that doesn't he start building the suit because he's scared that Superman's gonna turn on him in one of the Justice League yeah films. Yeah now that is the paranoia from Bruce Wayne seeping into Batman because he's not dealt with it. Whereas if you look at like the Avengers Tony Stark slash Ironman just behaves as one you know there is no conflict within him because he is one yeah he regardless of who he is he's he is comfortable with who he is in the sense that he does yeah yeah and arguably I think to be a leader you need to be completely comfortable with who you are um I mean from my personal d development as as I say as as a CEO over the last few years the more I've become comfortable in my own skin I like to think the more I've become a more comfortable confident leader.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah and that's absolutely critical that's absolutely critical because uh you know again Batman is a and we spoke about this I think last week when we were talking about or the week before we were talking about situational leaders uh you know he he adapts he's adaptive he's responsive to situations to circumstances um he's happy in oh I say happy but let me rephrase that as I think it's the wrong word to ever use a Batman he's content to defer to Superman or to Wonder Woman um in the heat of the moment you know when there is an issue or you know a significant issue in front of them then he will you know respond you know he's responsive to circumstances that and in those sense as a situation leader he is versatile he is pragmatic in those those moments he is probably the most that is when he is most deeply aware of team dynamics in those yes in those urgent circumstances but like all poor leaders that then doesn't translate to those uh those moments of calm when you need to be a transformational leader through uh emotional intelligence rather than simply through influence uh through action he's he's action driven he's um circumstance he's situational uh leader so you know I think and I think that that echoes a lot of what we were talking about last week when we were talking about the Avengers they're all situational leaders they can all respond extremely well in circumstance but then as soon as that urgency is is over the team begins to disconnect again yeah because there is no strength of leadership to hold them to bond them together um in those moments uh of of I guess as I say calm I think we called them a task force didn't we the Avengers task force the Avengers task force amazing Batman is a micromanager and uh micromanager with a chronic mistrust of everybody and everything um he's a workaholic like we said he has this sort of rigidity this moral absolutism which I think we see really come to the fore during you know with the with the Justice League um and and I think he alienates people as a result and he has conflict with with his you know with his team as a result he he's un he's unbended which makes him authoritative uncommanding and controlling none of which are I believe good leadership styles no no I'd fully agree would you want to work for him oh good god no oh my god no no no oh my god 100% no hundred percent no I don't know why Alfred sticks around I honestly don't know why Alfred sticks around honestly as I must be out of loyalty to Bruce Wayne's father because good god you would just honestly Bruce Wayne is a face you never get tired of slapping honestly you'd be come on fair like get over yourself would you would you want to work for him no I'd give him a hug and then I'd leave that's interesting that you're you're you have empathy for him I don't yeah normally I'm not particularly empathetic as well so I don't really know where it's coming from but he it's just so sad like it's like aw like if that hadn't if that hadn't happened imagine the sort of leader he would be he'd be like a happy Batman a happy Batman can you imagine? Like Adam West Batman I suppose I'm empathetic to Michael Keaton's Bruce Wayne much more than I'm empathetic to uh Christian Bale Christian Bale I was gonna say Christopher Nolan but yeah Christian Bale's same films than his Bruce Wayne and that lad in those in that last uh iteration what was what was his what was that last iteration oh the Batman oh Robert Pattinson yeah I mean his his his Bruce Wayne we forgot about that geez forgot about that I would I'd be looking for job adverts to join the Jokers crew wanted wanted bad henchman to join crew to beat Batman actually speaking of jokers what they called um oh what they called the group the group that Harley Quinn is in Suicide Squad there's an interesting team dynamic they're much happier than Batman I mean arguably that might be why they do get a little bit of success but we should we should do it we should do we should yeah yeah let's let's not say anymore because that is that's another team one right there that we're gonna do that's a brilliant one I really like that idea Suicide Squad never thought about those guys I like that excellent uh brilliant but if you contrast the way they operate uh versus just looking back at the Justice League Justice League feels so messy and a lot of that is because of Batman take Batman out of Justice League I mean Batman is I mean he's very tactical you know and that arguably is that a leadership characteristic I don't know but he's very very strategic well I mean that's what he brings to a team but take him away um actually you probably got quite a nice team yeah and doesn't that speak volumes but his leadership style remove him and we will function and we will function better as a team I think and you know there's a benchmark to anyone who's listening looking at you looking at your teams looking at your leaders looking at them thinking if we if you weren't here would we be a better team if the answer is yes that's a massive red flag that you've got to respond to you can't just let that one flutter in the wind you've got to get you've got to respond to that issue likewise to boards of directors if you're thinking oh actually if we didn't have the CEO here we'd be quite productive probably time to find a new CEO yes yeah or if you're looking or if you're a CEO looking at your board and thinking am I working with the Justice League is that who this group is um who is the batman who is the Batman of my board of directors yeah oh my god it's the person who has is emotionally repressed it's the person who is a micromanager it's the person who demonstrates chronic mistrust in teammates or in you uh and then denies it profusely it's the person who refuses to delegate who is absolutely rigid in their worldview and uncompromising and has little to no interpersonal skills that is your team Batman right there they are not a leader and if you don't know who it is maybe look in the mirror look in the mirror I feel like we've learned quite a lot from this episode I really feel like um yeah we've torn Batman apart which is just what he needs I'm sure and uh we've learned not what not to do in the real world well who not who not to be who not to be yeah like we said I'm empathetic I'm I'm I'm I am empathetic and sympathetic to the lad's uh origins you know I understand completely why he is so emotionally guarded where this overdeveloped sense of duty comes from where his distrust of people of humanity comes from where my empathy ends is that if you want to be a leader you have to recognize the need to invest in yourself part of investing in yourself is recognizing that self you know self-development is not a luxury it's an absolute necessity and he hasn't done that he has he has assumed a leader you know a servant leadership role because again nobody asked him to be Batman no but Gotham didn't say do you fancy being Batman we've got this we've got all this leather and PVC kicking around do you fancy we'll let you we'll let you define it he has assumed this role which is okay brilliant good for the people of Gotham but he hasn't really ever invested and we said this in self-care he's not done any real analysis of where he what his problems are and what his weaknesses are and what his strengths are he's deeply damaged deeply troubled and he actually does nothing to reinvent himself and and that's despite people Alfred first amongst them leaning on him and saying you you yeah you're great but you can be better and he doesn't listen so my empathy stops there my empathy stops there because he makes no and so how am I supposed to follow somebody why should I follow somebody who has so little disregard for themselves true well they do say you need to love yourself before you can love anyone else and it's the same sort of thing for leadership and actually something we didn't we didn't talk about is his communication style as Batman or lack of uh does he's not one for long emails he's not one for uh you know I'll put I'll drop this in a text for you um he'd be quiet on the WhatsApp group but but that's the point he drops in he drops by uninvited I mean we see it with Commissioner Gordon he'll just drop by and scare you half out your skin the only way they can get him is when they shine a big bloody bat in the sky and hopefully turns up and half the time he doesn't. It's all about control with the guy it's all about control with the guy. Yeah and and him being uncommunicative he would be the he would be the bloke who reads his board papers on the train you haven't heard from him for the last three months since the last meeting he reads his papers on the train then he walks in and asks a few really awkward questions thinks he's being clever and then disappears again for the next three months in Dark Knight is it dark night or Batman begins he falls asleep in a board meeting maybe it's Batman begins he's there in a big Wayne and Wayne Enterprise board meeting snoozing okay let's let's I think we I think we I think we got a measure of of where Batman sits in the whole in the whole scheme of things but what are our remind me what are our questions how do we wrap these we've done we've well um we've pretty much we would would we want to work for him no um we've we've we know what we can learn from him in the real world I think we've done that with yeah yeah um how does he score out of ten uh one yeah one it's a leadership scale now we're talking about the leadership scale yeah I I wouldn't uh god I wouldn't even rate him to be honest though I'm being unfair because he is a situational leader he is a servant leader you know what uh so uh I'd probably give him maybe uh I'd maybe give him a three tops I'd give yeah a two I'd give him a two because well again it depends which iteration of him because Robin sticks round I mean uh or Nightwing or whoever it's called I mean they do stick round and they do I think they do work together but obviously on the kind of on the big screen we're seeing different versions of Batman so a two I'd give him a two yeah two two three I mean I'm not yeah it's god yeah this is the wor I think he is the worst of all the ones we've done.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

That's fair enough I think that's probably fair enough I mean he ain't no Jean Lu Picard is he well could he could he could Batman work in Starfleet oh my god I think he would thrive in the world of the Federation not in the Federation he would be I he would I think he he would be like some kind of lone bounty hunter warrior type thing on his own little he'd basically be a Star Trek equivalent of Boba Fett yeah yeah yeah that's who he is that's who he is so likewise I think he'd probably he'd be alright in the galaxy far far away yeah yeah he could be yeah he could totally do that yes he definitely wouldn't be a rebel he definitely wouldn't be part of the empire he would just be this lone sort of just a hired hired gun he's a hired gun mercenary muscle he's the muscle yeah yeah in Marvel in Marvel world god I think him and Tony Stark would clash I think he would be so confused by like the dynamics of the Avengers like Thor he just wouldn't know what he'd probably try pick the hammer up and and then there's Spider but there's Peter Parker trying to talk to him and he'd probably you know I think he'd just be really he'd try micromanage the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Well the thing is right he comes up with loads of he creates loads of different tech or steals lots of different tech depending on where you're watching he's got loads of you know he's a clever guy he's a clever guy but he's actually not that intelligent in the sense that he doesn't connect to anybody he has little little common sense he has little world experience and it shows yeah is that is that because he was a sheltered little rich boy exactly exactly although yeah but I also think it's broader than that goes back to my point about not looking you know and I mean he goes to discover himself up in the Himalayas or whatever with what's his what's it was it's Roselgul Ram Neeson. Liam Neeson it's yeah and uh what's that all about it's not about self discovery it's about vengeance yeah it's about making himself stronger which arguably if you contrast that to Dr

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Strange, who I know originally he goes to isn't it? I think it's Nepal as well, Doctor Strange, to learn his magic, and I know he's trying to get the feeling back in his hands, but ultimately that does change him because he's sort of trying to use this for the greater good, he's protecting the timestone, he has gone through a transformation and more self-awareness. Um not a huge amount, but much more than Bruce Wayne did uh when he went to train with Rosal Gul.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Bruce Wayne, I would put him up on the wall. That's what he's gonna be uh that's what he's in another universe. Are we doing? We're doing uh we've got to be.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

I need to talk to you about it because we need to figure out um which stuff.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

But we are doing some gimothrons. Yeah, yeah, I've got to do that. He would be he'd be up on the wall, probably quite effective on the wall, actually. In some lone outposts.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yeah, those things, yeah, yeah. I think he could be Gollum. He'd be quite happy being Gollum in Lord of the Rings. He'd just sit in his cave grumbling, waiting for people to come to him.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Like a sexy golem.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Right, okay, right. So basically, basically he's he's he's he he he basically is he he has no role to play in any other universe.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Um he only fits in his own, he fits in the jazz, he fits in the DC world. He doesn't fit comfortably anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

And even then he's not fitting in particularly well in his own world.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Yeah, yeah. Okay, there we go. That's Batman.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Well scathing, scathing Batman. I really like the Dark Knight trilogy. And now I feel bad.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Sorry. Anyway, who are we doing next week?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Oh no, I know I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Oh god, no, which captain Kirk?

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Well, both. I have yeah, I'll prep you. Both, both. I've got a whole I've got like a I've written a paper on the different Kirks. Don't worry, I'll send it to you. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

My lord. All right, okay, brilliant. Well, I have something to look forward to next week, dear listener. Although, let's be fair, if you're listening, it probably is something you want to look forward to.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Don't pretend you don't love it.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Uh Captain Kirk, I've got to be honest, he's not one of my favourites.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Oh, he's he after, don't you worry, after next week he will be.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Alright, okay. He's one of my favourites. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

He is, yeah. He is my Picard. You like you love Picard. I love Picard. That's yeah, he is my Picard.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Cool. All right. Remember, whether you're on the bridge or sat in the Batcave, we will catch you in the next timeline.