Ned Stark

In this episode, we leave the stars behind and travel north to Winterfell to explore the leadership of Eddard Stark, the man who tried to do the right thing in a world that punished him for it. Was Ned’s unbending honour a virtue or a fatal flaw? Andrew and Ellen unpack what makes the Lord of Winterfell such a compelling, and cautionary, study in leadership.

From servant leadership and moral courage to political naivety and strategic rigidity, they debate whether Ned was a great leader in the wrong world, or simply a good man out of his depth. Drawing parallels between Westeros and the workplace, they ask: can values-based leadership survive in a complex, shifting environment?

Expect spirited analysis, a few direwolf-sized laughs, and the occasional existential shudder as the duo decide where Ned Stark ranks on the Multiverse Leadership Matrix (spoiler: winter isn’t the only thing that’s coming).

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Dawn. A man rides out into the snow, his breath white in the freezing air. Before him kneels a deserter, trembling. But the man does not flinch. Because he knows what must be done. This is Edard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, a leader of honour, of duty, of unbreakable principle. His word is his bond, his actions match his words, and his people's trust in him is what keeps them alive. Yet in the Game of Thrones, honor can be a shield, but it can also be a trap. Today, listeners, we explore the leadership of Ned Stark, a man who proved that sometimes sticking to your values is the bravest thing you can do, and sometimes the most dangerous. Discuss winter is coming, and welcome to episode seven of the Leadership Multiverse. Ah, I couldn't even remember the name of the title. Just the multiverse. The multiverse. Just episode seven of the multiverse. Oh, I'm so excited. Now this is a complete this is a complete diversion. We've been like out in outer space and like galaxies far, far away, the future, and now and the past. We've been everywhere, except this now just feels like a this feels like a really radical departure for us, actually.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I know, and we've picked quite uh a left field person because we've not gone for the Daenerys or Tyrion or anyone like that. We've gone for Ned Stark.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Ned Stark, the man who, if I'm not mistaken yet, uh Varis the spider says he tried to do the right thing. He wasn't made for the Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

He wasn't.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

He wasn't, was he?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

No, just he just he wasn't.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Let's just try spoiler alert. He he really wasn't, and yet somehow the man manages to endure through the entire uh Game of Thrones um uh story. He enduers.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

He does, and he, I mean, jumping straight into it, he actually lives on through his children. We see his legacy through all his 25 children, or however many there are.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Five. I'm not even sure which ones are his kids. I honestly they all just keep changing. I'm like, yeah, okay. So let's talk like Ned Stark, what's his backstory? Do you know? Do you know his backstory?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Because if because um do uh uh no. Well, I've no, I read the book. I read the first book a long time ago and forgot everything that happened. So okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

So okay, so briefly, he's the second son of Lord Rickard Stark of Winterfell. All right, his elder brother is Benjamin. Yes, who was heir to Winterfell, and his younger siblings were Liana and another brother called Benjamin. Really? He's got two brothers called Benjamin, right? Okay. Maybe okay, okay, fine. He was fostered at a young age, uh, at the Vale under Lord John Arin, and this is where he forms his deep brotherhood with Robert Baratheon. Um, that veil upbringing teaches him discipline, chivalry, honour, and that is fundamentally it's the moral framework he carries throughout his life. Arguably it's what ends his life. Um, his kind of defining moment uh in terms of you know who he becomes as a man is Robert's Rebellion or the Define War. The rebellion begins when Crown Prince um oh heck, it when I was reading it, and it looks Welsh on the paper. I'm like, hang on a minute, I think I've been to that village. Uh the Crown Prince Rhaegar Tagarian allegedly kidnaps Liana Stark. This triggers a train of events. Ned's father, Ricard, and his elder brother Brandon. His elder brothers Brandon, not Benjan, were executed by King Eris II or the Mad King. And then as the new Lord of Winterfell, he marches alongside Robert and John Arin and leads troops in key battles, survives the war, ultimately helping Robert seize the Iron Throne. That's where we're kind of, you know, he's the Lord of Winterfell, he returns to Winterfell to rule as a just and respected lord. His leadership style in the North is built on stability, fairness, living according to the old ways of the North. Beloved by Bannerman for his integrity and reluctance to exploit his position. So then that's where we kind of that's where we meet Ned Stark.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

And do you think he's a good leader?

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Oh no. No, I don't think he is a good leader. Um I I think he's all right, we're just getting straight into it. I think he I mean he he's got massively amazing leadership strengths, absolutely. You know, leads he leads from the front, you know, whether it's delivering justice, fighting on the battlefield, you know, he's physically present, he shares the risks with his bannerman. So, you know, he's absolutely never takes a step backward in moving forward. Um he is he's definitely strong in terms of his servant leadership. Nothing is about personal gain for him, it's all about protecting people his people, upholding the responsibilities of the title, uh, you know, chief executive of the north. Um he's transparent, he's absolutely personal, he's he welcomes and accepts personable personal accountability, and he absolutely values sort of tradition and stability. So those, you know, that that kind of those those strengths of unshakable integrity, morality, duty over self, I th I think are unquestionable. But I think his rigidity and his lack of political acumen uh lead to all sorts of strategic blind spots. I think he's naive, I think he overestimates honour, and I think he is reluctant to use other tools that are available to him. In you know, um, and so and so as a result, I think that and that leads ultimately to not just his downfall, so many people's downfalls. Oh, a chain of events, yeah. Yeah, I mean that book may have just been called House of Cards, you know, if it hadn't already been stolen, but taken by someone else, he could have you could have used that and said it's the house of cards, and he is the foundation for all of that disintegration, I think.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah, definitely. And it's funny that I mean everything you just said about him in terms of servant leadership, he's very principled, he's authentic, those are his downfalls. He leads with such a rigid moral compass, which arguably is a very commendable trait to have as a leader, but we talk about leaders fitting their worlds. If you've got a rigid moral compass in Westeros, that ain't gonna get you very far when you see the other leaders around you when you've got the Lannisters. Um, I mean, likewise with being authentic, again, you want an authentic leader. However, he refuses to project any sort of not a false persona. Like what you see is what you get. And last week when we were talking about Captain Kirk, we were saying that you know, being a leader, it's not chess, it's poker. You have to have a poker face sometimes. You have to be able to read your opponents, you have to, you have to sort of sometimes bluff. Ned Stark has no he has no bluff. He's just blessed his heart, he's just who he is, and then he dies because of it. Well, he does know.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

You were who you were, and then you died as a result.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Bless his cotton socks, and then he was beheaded.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Yeah, yeah, I think I think it's interesting you said authentic. Uh in the within the context of Game of Thrones, he is, I would suggest, he is the most authentic leadership uh leader. Seconded only by um Jon Snow, I think.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, I think John John's got more of an edge, though, than than Ned. I think he get definitely gets the authenticity from Ned, but John reads relationships and politics better than Ned Stark, which is ultimately yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Absolutely. I think Ned Stark he he operates on, and I think this, you know, he operates on assumed shared values. You know, he he he sees that he assumes that everybody, you know, his rivals, they all share the same moral, basic moral lines that none of them will cross. And the reality is in you know, in the in reality, in the real world, the world outside of Westeros, um leaders, you know, we do see and we and we see leaders making that mistake, assuming that the baseline of fairness is the same that everybody will honour. And the reality is that well, that's just not true. That's just not true. Because people come to the table with so many different perspectives, so many different experiences, so many different backgrounds, so much different expertise, um, it stands to reason that you know we spend in in in in our world, we we you know we spend a lot of time when we're in the leadership environment talking about values and uh personal values are always a key driver to how we develop as leaders. But if we then don't articulate them explicitly and share them explicitly, then all that ever does uh is lead to conflict. It just leads to, and I think you know, um I think the the lesson there for us in the real world is we always need to, as a as a leader, you always need to verify, never assume the operating system of the people that you're dealing with, the value system that you're dealing with, because you may you may find up bumping into somebody who sees the world completely. Oh, you will, you will always bump into someone who sees the world differently to you. And if you've not had the opportunity just to go, right, you know, this is who I am, who are you, you're never ever gonna then work effectively with them. You're definitely never gonna lead them.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

I definitely, and I mean great leaders, both in Westeros and in the real world, they adapt their style to the context. So Ned applies the the sort of northern the the loyalty of the north and honour to King's Landing, and that ultimately costs his life. And I mean, if we look at business and politics in the real world, you need leaders to adapt. I mean I was trying to think of current political examples, but I can't. But look at the Cold War, look at the the thawing of the Cold War. We saw leaders in both the West and the East slightly adapt their leadership styles, the way they communicate in order to kind of grow relationships. And I think you need to have that. And again, that's that brings the question, you know, are leaders are leaders born or are leaders made? And do you think because Ned Stark just seems to have been born?

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Oh, I don't think so. Oh, I no, I I no, I I think he was made. I think he was made, well, like we said at the at the head of the at the top of the of the episode, I think he was made in the veil, you know, that really developed who he was, and I think his leadership probably was developed, you know, when he's fighting Robert's battle, um, Robert's war. I think um otherwise, you know, he's and again if you think in the fantasy world of Game of Thrones, which isn't technically medieval, but it is based on medieval, um a lot of medieval sort of principles and systems, yeah. Systems. And actually, systems are sort of continued well into the you know, the the well into the arguably into the you know Edwardian times, you know, in the early 20th century. This principle around the second son, um the second son being you know, you make your own way, you know, you're not the heir, you're you're not going to inherit, you're not necessarily then expected to lead um whatever that community looks like, whatever that that um that that land or or or or or tenants or or whomever it is that you're that you that you own or that or for whom you are expected to lead. Um so the second son sort of mentality, I think, you know, which like I say went right through into the early 20th century, uh arguably right up until World War II, um, which was you go find your own way. And I think had had his had Brandon not been executed, I don't think you would have seen a natural leader in Ned Stark. I think he is made by the circumstances. So that's my just what is what I know I wasn't there.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

No, I mean I agree to some extent, but I think there are limits. I think if he if Ned had grown up in King's Landing, I don't think we would have seen him as an aggressive Lannister type. I think he would have been eaten alive.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Oh no, that's fair. Well yeah, which is why I think he was made. Because I think if you if you were if you were naturally part if you were naturally if if your leadership naturally develops and evolves because of the environment in which you are living and working, well, isn't that you're just you're just born. You're just born into it and you just are moulded into the world. That's what I mean, though.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

That's oh, but I mean that Ned was kind of Oh, I see what you mean. Well, no, I meant that Ned was kind of born as he is, like a bit of a naive Oh 100%. Goody goody. 100%, I mean he executed someone not really.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Yeah, you know, yeah. Oh, you're such a goody goody. I said the man looking.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

But he manned up and executed whoever it was himself.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

I think he's I think he's absolutely a what I would kind of think of as a kind of culture clash leader. Yeah. You know, he he thrives as the Lord of Winterfell because the cultural values match his own loyalty, directness, honour. You know, when he moves to King's Landing, that cultural code, those values are entirely different. You know, subtlety, alliance building, plausible deniability, you know, those are all you know, the key, those are the val the moral values, or probably the best moral values of King's Landing um characters. And so he and I think that that yeah, I absolutely 100% agree. He only he's a leader who is not adaptable, he thrives only in one environment, and it's one he recognises and one he values, but then he can't adapt to any addition any different environment.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

And he's not forward-thinking enough, just picking up on your point on coalition building there, to build up kind of a good group of stakeholders, for want of a better word, um, of key stakeholders, because they potentially don't line up with his values. I mean, he doesn't really get buy-in from like Littlefinger or Renley or is it the Tyrells, you know, before he moves against the Lannisters, which arguably is a very dumb move. Um because because he is so blinded by his value system that he cannot see beyond that.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Yeah, I think I think absolutely. And and then if you if you translate that into our world, I mean you're never ever gonna survive, you're never gonna thrive, and you're never going to be a leader. Um if you cannot reflect and respond to the circumstances in which you are required to lead.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

No, no, go on, go on.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

I say when you surround yourself with yes people as well, that really does nothing for your leadership style. Because you, you know, when we talk about building teams, you don't want people who have got exactly the same values or think exactly the same way around you because you need to be challenged, and he doesn't have that consistently enough to the point where he thinks, like, oh, maybe it's not a good idea to rise against the Lannisters when I haven't got anyone on my side.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yeah, I think probably the I pr I think probably the closest that who comes to that in terms of challenging him is probably Caitlin Stark.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

You know, and because she's got a different, but she has a different cultural background. She's come into his, she understands his, she adapts her communication style with him so that she can she can challenge him because she does see it differently. I actually think as a as a again, you know, we we'll do Caitlin Stark, you know, in in a future episode, I think, because she's uh I think she's a massively underrated leader within uh within in in the north, uh, and actually within the within the brick bigger Game of Thrones. Um, but she demonstrates how she can adapt. See she knows she and he is completely that's why I think you know, going back to that question, is he a good leader? No, he's not. He's a good leader if you're one if you're in the middle of a fight, proverbial fight or real fight, and he's up there and you can see that he's giving you cover, he's giving you space to breathe, he's you know, literally one for the team and you know, going out to bat, all those different cliches, he's doing it all in the moment, and this very much, I think, if I ref remember rightly, when we re when we spoke about Tony Stark, you know, uh hang on, Tony Stark, Ned Stark. Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, we're the first people to think of this.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

They're related, they must be related. Step aside, Jon Snow.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Oh yeah, maybe maybe this was the Liana secret. Imagine I'm oh actually we could do Ned Stark, and well, when we get to our multiverse question, we'll do but you know, we would when we were talking about uh Tony Stark, we were saying, yeah, in the moment, in a moment of crisis and I mean immediate the immediacy of a crisis, a guy who's just gonna deal with something to resolve the danger. Yeah, easy, man.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

But uh yeah, yeah, and he he's quite he's quite a calm figure as well. I mean you know I mean when he he confronted Cersei about um was it um Joffrey's Geoffrey's dad, which I mean it's pretty pretty awkward conversation to have, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

So I've been looking at that boy and I'm wondering, hmm.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Doesn't have the same accent as his dad, does he? He also looks exactly like his mother's brother.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Just saying. Yeah, awkward. We've all had those awkward conversations at the Christmas dinner table. I'm looking at my nephew now and thinking, hmm.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

The Monday morning staff huddle, we always go through it. But you know, he um I mean he very I mean, and actually his his calmness also, again, another one of his downfalls, because he confronts Cersei and says, Oh, by the way, is Joffrey's dad uh your brother? Um instead of using that knowledge and that information as leverage, you know, he sort of lets her know that he's on to her. And then yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Yeah, and I think I think if you think about leadership, uh obviously now obviously what you're in in pr practical terms, in Ned Stark terms, we're talking about a reluctance to use deception as a tool. But but in leadership terms, we're talking about broader leadership terms. We're saying, look, actually, there was knowledge that he had that he didn't that he wasn't w willing to utilize or didn't know how to utilize, one of probably the the the former. And actually, you know, when You know, um I think I think it just again just demonstrates that if you really want to be a successful leader, you've got to maximize the tools that are available to you. And within the context that he's down in King's Landing, he's complete he completely refuses to to use any other tool or mechanism or or or or or expertise or skill or person or whomever. He refuses to capitalise on any of it.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Um it's about well, another poker analogy, he shows his cards way too early. Like it's not necessarily it's not about deception, but you know, it's about reve yeah, revealing um and giving ultimately giving he gave Cersei the opportunity to run as well. So it's about that again, about that forward thinking. He doesn't seem to understand the house of cards that he could potentially create or or avoid.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Or that he could bring down. He could have brought that down, but was but uh well deliberately as in uh with direction and purpose rather than the way he did bring it down. But and I think that goes back to he's not yeah, he's not strategic, he's not a systems thinker, he's not a strategic thinker, he doesn't understand, he doesn't, he doesn't see the system that um that he's that he's been brought into, and therefore he's a terrible hand of the king. He's a terrible hand of the king as a result.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

It's truly awful. I mean, no an interesting episode actually would be comparing him and Tyrion as hands of the king. Tyrion's incredible, far and away, incredible. Yeah, and again, I mean that talks about the importance of having strong, I was gonna say good people, but arguably no one in Game of Thrones potentially is really good, but of having strong people around you as a leader who understand the context in which you are navigating your leadership. Because Tyrion is great for that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Yeah, because actually, yeah, Tyrion cultivates a team around him, he cultivates a team of expertise. He doesn't necessarily like the people, sometimes he does, but you know, if you think about Latally in Lat uh, you know, he brings, you know, uh the spider into the mix, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

He knows he knows all too well what the spider skill sets are and sees that as a as well as an asset. I'm gonna be able to utilize that. Brings that even you know, even though they've had their own uh confrontations and their own um tensions to say that it is an understatement, you know, and and have sat on very opposite sides of the table, he still recognises a skill set there that as a leader, oh I'll be able to lean on that to be able to advance the the the work that I am doing as as you know, in this instance, you know, the hand of the king, although actually that was the hand of the queen, because it was when he was well different, but yeah, but I mean same same role though, but yeah. But yeah, so I think I think Ned Stark prioritizes short-term truth telling over long-term positioning. And when I talk to people and I say you need to be, you need to have political acumen, it's not about being underhand, it's not about being deceptive, it's not about being um untrustworthy. In fact, it's the complete opposite, it's about understanding perspectives and being able to respond to and position yourself in such a way that you are recognized by all perspectives as uh as a consequential leader, whereas I think Ned Stark is a consequential failure.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah. I mean, interestingly, I do think he's one of the few leaders who, whilst arguably is not say is not a good uh not the sort of leader perhaps who would be an example to strive to be. However, he does have respect from his people. He is very much loved in the north. Well, at first at first, at first, yeah. And I think he's probably and I think but but this is what happens when you have a leader who's just driven by their morals and their values. I mean, would you want to work for him? Because I was thinking, I was thinking about this, actually. I'll just answer the question then I will ask you because I was thinking about it. You know, if you worked for Ned Stark, he'd probably be a very nice boss. He wouldn't do much for you in terms of developing or being an example to show, you know, political acumen, etc. But he would probably care about you.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Yeah, I think he I think I think it within the right context, he would be a highly empathetic um leader. I can see him absolutely being a you know, fostering a sort of collegial, collaborative environment. Uh and again, it goes back to that strength of servant leadership. You know, I think he would absolutely position himself. He recognizes his obligation to the people that he leads, you know, the people of the north. He recognises his obligation to protect them, to promote their interests. Um, I think he would be an appalling delegator. I mean, you can see that he he's actually he, I think he, if you think about um, and I think you know, this goes back to some conversations that you and I were having last earlier this week or last week about the difference between leadership and management. And I actually think the his boys he he and he raises them to be exceptional managers, not leaders. Not leaders. I don't think the irony being that the two girls um are are exceptional leaders, leaders because of circumstance, but also I think you know the courageous leadership that they both demonstrate is phenomenal. But I don't think that he is purposely sets out to to develop his his boys as leaders in the north. I think he sees them just as really good managers, and um yeah. No, but again, that could be a cultural thing of what it's you know of because if you think about who's the um oh in the battle of the bastards, uh the guy who um fights Jon Snow.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

People are screaming at us.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Yeah, you're gonna hate us now. Do a quick Google. My point is though, you know, if you think about the relationship that he has with his father, it's exactly the same. Ramsey Bolton. Yeah, so you know, Ramsay Bolton's father, he doesn't doesn't rear him to be a leader. He rears, he expects him to be a good manager under his leadership. So I I'm not sure that you know, and for me, you being a you know a good leader is about empowering the people who are in your team, and I don't think they I don't think Ned Stark does that.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

No, I think he teaches them the importance of having certain qualities like integrity. And I mean as a result, integrity does earn you trust. But again, that's you can't be a leader based on integrity and just loyalty. You need to be able to operate within your system, you know, being a nice person, you know, and in I was gonna say inspiring people, but you're not really inspiring people. Getting people to like you does not make you a good leader. No, you know, and again, I think we see that in with some people who think that you know that you know, I think some people probably think, why won't my staff like me? Like, you know, you bend over backwards for people, um, for your staff, and sometimes, you know, being a good leader is recognising that you won't always be liked and you have to make tough decisions, and I don't think Ned Stark appreciated that at all.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Not when he became Hand of the King.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

No, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

In the in the North, well, I think in the North, you know, because he is he is the guy who he is prepared to wield the sword, you know, and he does say, doesn't he? He does say, um, oh uh I can't forget the direct quote, but basically, you know, he who passes the sentence has to wield the sword. So, you know, he he you know, I think, but again, he's so I think he's so one-dimensional, he's so one-dimensional, you can and as a result, within one context, the north, you can trust him, you can follow him, you can rely on him, but as soon as he is in a different system, and and that and a system that he refuses to engage in, he refuses to learn about it, and he refuses to engage in, he immediately becomes a leader that you cannot trust. Because you cannot trust a leader who is out of their depth, not because they're gonna be vindictive or nasty or full of malice, but if they're swimming to keep their head just above water, if they are just about treading water to keep themselves afloat, you can't ever trust what direction that leader is gonna take you. And so immediately out of the out of in a different system he becomes a completely actually uh he is, I think you begin to see his irrelevance in the Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, no, I completely I completely agree with that. And I think again, it goes back to also you know, when you look up to your to a leader, again, he wouldn't engage with others in the same way. So, like we said about Tyrion, at those what what were they called? Is it the council meetings, you know, where they'd sit around the big table? You would never see Ned Stark doing that, or he'd sit there being grumpy.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Oh, you can absolutely yeah, he's not because he's not a collaborative leader.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

No, no, he's not at all.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

100%. It doesn't really matter if you like the people who are around the table with you. If you're working together, you gotta lead that team. And then I think this is where personalities and politics take over, and then we begin to see ego and you know drive uh action and decision making, and that's exactly what we see around when he's the hand of the king. Is you know, they know he doesn't trust them, he knows they don't like him, trust him. Well, he probably thinks they do trust him. Actually, he certainly knows they don't like him in a naive way. In a naive way, he probably does think because again, it's not about he's not political with a lowercase p. He doesn't have that acumen, he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't afford the time. So I talk about him being empathetic, but I think again he's only empathetic in one context.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned ego actually, because that's just made me think with a lot of these characters, so like Tony Stark, Batman, uh Captain Kirk, to an extent, we talked about ego. And Ned Stark, thinking about it, he has got ego, but in a very different way to those other ones. Oh, his ego is kind of being subtle. Yeah, it's a sort of quiet arrogance of having the moral high ground.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

So ego doesn't always have to be you shout, yeah, yeah. You don't always have to be shouting the loudest or jumping out with a gun or to to have ego. This is a sort of snooty. Oh, I'm a better person than you are, ego, so I don't need to engage with you. Which again we see from plenty of business leaders.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Oh god, yeah, yeah. And and it all it does is and it and all it does it literally is alienate the people who are around you because they look at you and think, well, I can't work with you. So I'm instead of working with you, I'm gonna circumnavigate you. And at best, I'll circumnavigate you. At worst, I'll now make it my mission to get rid of you. And everybody ceases to be focused on results, and everybody then bec it all just becomes a big bun fight, uh, which is exactly which is exactly what we see materialize. Now, obviously, he's not he's not to blame for um the the you know he's not to blame for his death and the subsequent events that happened. But I I think it's fair to say well, you know, because because it's far more complex than that.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

It wasn't like they were all a really nice group of people. This boat from the north turns up and they're all like, ah, right, we're all gonna become complete horror horrors. And um, you know, they they they're pretty I mean he's a pretty horrendous working environment that he's been parachuted into. And I you know, I would love to see what the HR meetings are like. Um crying. What so uh I've got a complaint about uh Ned, but um Oh really? Right, okay. Well okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

God, he'd be awful in a startup. I mean he would not survive in a startup, could you imagine him?

SPEAKER_03 35:37

I don't think oh I can't I I don't think he would and I think it's interesting if he has if he had lived, I think we would have begun I think you could reflect and say, right, in an alternative uh history where he lives, I think you begin to see that his reputation uh falter because uh he uh he was not able to it was obvious that in King's Land and he was not going to emulate his success that he had had in uh quite frankly, just one context. The north, well two contexts, the north, the cultural context of the north, and the immediate crises of the battlefield. Yeah which is an ext which is a highly one-dimensional context, the north less so because that's a cultural piece, so it's it's multifaceted. But with outside of those two environments, those two systems, I think you would have begun to you would you would have seen him fail. Um course we were never ever gonna know because that was never the point of the story, but you know, had had the net had season two been Ned carries on as Hand of the King It's a yeah, I mean it's a not to not to proliferate the what ifs, but I wanna as well, what impact would him surviving have had on his children as well, and their paths, and their paths as leaders, I wonder. Well, what would it have well actually his loyalty?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Well his presence because I because again, I mean they were they I mean he was a mentor to them, they obviously loved him very much, and he did I mean he taught them various life lessons that we we talked about. But you know, take take Aria for example. Aria has a grim time of it in Game of Thrones, you know. I mean, she's ultimately a lone wolf and she has to find her way, and I mean I think a discussion about her as a leader will be very interesting. But she is incredibly I was gonna say negative, but pessimistic, understandably. Um I mean, put to put it an understatement, yeah. Well, yeah, but I mean she does have a sort of moral compass. Is it a moral compass? Like she's driven by justice, which arguably she probably gets from Ned. But would she have a softer side if he had survived?

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Maybe, maybe, but what I really do think is interesting as well as he will not adapt. She's she is more than happy to literally literally and figuratively stick that stick the knife in. Um you know, she she absolutely uh can adapt to her circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Um she chops all her hair off and she doesn't she pretend to be a boy, or yeah, for a while, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

She does, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when she's when she's running when she's kind of brought into that band of merry men who are being dragged along. Yeah, yeah. Uh with the butcher's with the butcher's son and uh and with uh the young lad who turns out to be Robert Baratheon's um son.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Oh yeah, the uh Gil Gil G Gill Gilly? I can't remember his name now, but yeah, I know I know what you mean, yeah. Again, sorry, Game of Thrones fans.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

Yeah, they they've they've they're not listening anymore. True Game of Thrones, true Game of Thrones Game of Thrones fans have gone, you must be joking. Ned is a god, you people know nothing. Um so I think you know, I think if you it's interesting, probably his style is probably what we would now call, you know, he's closest to values-based leadership, but you know, where principles are not negotiable even when the stakes are high. I think his story shows immense loyalty that such a style can generate because he does generate a huge amount of loyalty, and that persists. His story, I mean, he is put on to say that he is put on a pedestal is an understatement. He persists, he hangs over the entire story right up and right up until the end. Um, but I think, you know, I think, you know, and and so to not you know, I don't want to no, he he does lead from the front. He is a courageous leader in the sense that you know that that feeds his servant leadership style. Transparency and accountability, absolutely, tradition, definitely. But my God, I think he is his rigidity, his rigid morality in a flexible world, um, his inability to operate in a as a systems thinker, as a strategic thinker, in in in a and good God, you know, King's Landing is such a complex environment. Westeros is such a complex environment. Uh I think you know, all of that taken together, I I just think the lad I I wouldn't want to work for him.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

I think he'd be if he was in the real world, I think he'd be really good running like a small family-run business, like a bakery, Stark Stollers.

SPEAKER_03 40:51

I knew you were gonna say bakery Stark Stallers. I knew you were gonna go with that.

unknown 40:56

Did you?

SPEAKER_03 40:57

I did. I did, and it's because he's from up north. I'm just picturing bread adverts on TV, you know, playing the hove's cubes.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Arms round his kids, yeah. They could all work there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but no, but but yeah, but I think he would really thrive in that sort of environment. Um but nothing, nothing else. There's no the little well, I was gonna say there's little politics in family-run bakeries, but I'm sure all the family-run backs are bigger.

SPEAKER_03 41:25

Oh, I'm sure all the bakers listening are gonna go, you have no idea. So, okay, where does he score?

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Oh three?

unknown 41:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

A generous three. Yeah, I mean I don't want to detract I don't want listeners to think that I'm that we're not saying that having integrity isn't a good thing, because it absolutely is. Being empathetic and having a strong sense of receptive, even no, absolutely, having a strong sense of moral and social justice, uh, natural justice, absolutely, those are all strengths, being transparent, being uh will, you know, embracing accountability. Absolutely, those are incredibly important, but only when they are combined with you know a more you know, into a more complex character, and uh he is there's nothing there's nothing complex about him at all.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

No, and I am now starting to think of him as having quite the quiet ego and lack of self-awareness.

SPEAKER_03 42:35

Oh yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. When you talk about leadership, uh number one is self-awareness. He has none. He has none.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

No, no, would he survive in another series, cinematic universe?

SPEAKER_03 42:54

No, I reckon I reckon I can see a scenario where Captain Kirk is um shooting him out of the bridge of the Enterprise in a coffin. Honestly.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Um okay, that that's quite extreme.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

Jean Jean-Loup Picard would be having a summer summary execution of Ned Stark for being such a pain in the ass on the in on the bridge. I don't think so. I can't see him. He can't even survive in his own in his own world.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

So he'd get eaten in The Walking Dead, they would just munch away. He'd try, he'd try to say hello, fellow zombies fellow zombies, hello zombies.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Yeah, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 43:34

And then they'd just eat him.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Yeah, I think he would lead. I think, yeah, I don't, yeah, if you compare him to Rick.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Um oh my god, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Oh my god, we need to do we need to do Rick as well. Yeah, we've got Rick, we've got Rick. We got him on the list. Have we yeah, we've got Rick, excellent. Uh I uh yeah, I oh my god, can you imagine um Ned Stark coming up against um oh god with the baseball bat uh Oh yeah yeah yeah Ned Stark coming up against Negan Oh my god Um yeah no I I I I think he is such uh such he lacks he lacks re lacks such complexity I think he's I think he I think he would probably survive as a leader. He would probably really thrive as a leader only in one period of history which is medieval. I think the lad would be a champion.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Yeah. I mean if we think as well about like cap say Captain America who is driven by morals and values, at least he is slightly more vaguely more of a political animal. If we think of leaders who are driven by their morals. I mean, and also he you know he doesn't get killed, so that kind of elevates him above Ned Stark.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

Yeah, that's an interesting one. How does Captain America survive but Ned Stark doesn't? That's a really good one. Maybe we'll do that. I wondered if I think it's about who you surround yourself with.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Oh yeah, that's a good point.

unknown 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Captain America. I mean to be fair, Captain America is more colla he is more collaborative. As much as he we uh as much as he doesn't as he clashes with Tony Stark frequently, they do eventually always reunite, as we talked about in our Avengers episode.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

Yeah, I think it's I think it's about who you surround yourself with. And I just think Yeah, yeah. Let's not do any more, let's not talk about it anymore. Let's just save that one for episode 400. Brilliant, excellent. So he's not gonna he's he doesn't survive in another any other universe or realm. Um and uh he scores, I think possibly scores the lowest on our uh on our uh on our he definitely scores the lowest on our on our matrix.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Yeah. Trying to think who else was low. The Avengers we didn't rank very high as a team, but they're a team.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

Batman. Batman was low.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Oh, oh please let's not talk about Batman, don't bum me out. That was such a great.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

It comes to something when Batman bums us out when we're talking about Ned Stark. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. No, so I think so. I think I don't think he survives anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Um that's uh lovely note.

SPEAKER_03 46:38

Who are we doing next? Who are we doing next week?

SPEAKER_01 46:40

The boys. We're doing the boys.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

The boys aren't we? Oh my god, are we doing the boys or we doing the seven? Which are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Let's do the boys.

SPEAKER_03 46:52

As in okay. As in the good guys.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Well, yeah, I mean good is relative, but yeah, the good guys.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. Yeah, cool, excellent.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

All right. All right, take us one.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Cool. Whether you're on the bridge or in Westeros, we will catch you in the next timeline.