Ghostbusters

This Halloween we dive into the supernatural world of leadership with everyone’s favourite team of chaotic academics turned entrepreneurs, the Ghostbusters! 👻 🚫 Ellen and Andrew explore how Ray, Egon, Peter, and Winston built a spin-out startup that somehow saved New York (twice), and what their ghost-catching antics reveal about team dynamics, charisma, ethics, and emotional intelligence.

Who really leads when egos, ethics, and ectoplasm collide? And could the Ghostbusters teach today’s exec teams a thing or two about situational leadership and psychological safety?

Tune in for spirited debate, sharp insight, and a few spectral laughs.
👻 Happy Halloween from the Leadership Multiverse.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Do you want to keep singing?

SPEAKER_01 0:40

I can't have um do something weird in your neighborhood. Who you're gonna call?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Who are you gonna call?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Who you're gonna call?

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Busters!

SPEAKER_01 0:53

It is the Halloween episode. I'm so excited. I've been waiting for this one. This is like this is this is like my it's like a whole team of Captain Kirks for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

It's also very fitting we're actually doing this in the evening when it's dark.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Oh, spooky the witch in our. Although nobody can actually tell that because we're on an audio, but well, so everyone knows it's night time. What day is it? Oh, it's Wednesday, isn't it? This goes out on a Wednesday, so Halloween's a Friday. This is two days before Halloween 2025. I'm just marking time just in case we don't make it through the night.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

What's that behind you, Andrew?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Well, we could just be we could just pretend we're pantomime on a podcast. Hi, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Hi, hi Andrew.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Hi, hi, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Good. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm really good.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Good. Well, we've got a team of your the equivalent of your Captain Kirk's to analyze, because it's a very special Halloween team episode. So we're gonna not just gonna be looking at one hero, we're assembling a whole team asking how do they lead together, what makes them high performing or not, and what happens when egos, ethics, and world-ending stakes collide.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

You know what I want to ask?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Who are you gonna call?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Who are you gonna call it?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

It was yes, yes. I another one of these teams with its innovation in the in the face of chaos, team dynamics, um built on contrasting personalities, and uh although not so much priorities in this one, but definitely a misfit group of academics. Um spin out for spin spin-out company found us again. It wasn't didn't we just do someone else who was a spin-out company?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Yeah, who who was that we just talked about? I mean, they're kind of like a they're kind of like a startup. I was when I was uh working with them. They are they are actually they literally are a startup.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

They are they yeah, they basically they're doing all this research in university money, then university doesn't know how to deal with them, so they say, Do you know what? Off you go, make some money with it. You you just go be you, and they do, and they end up saving New York, New York City. So good, they named it twice. So um yeah. Oh wow, let's well go on. Do you want to go on? You kick us off. Go on, go on, you kick us off, get us into it.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Uh okay, well, I mean, well, I suppose should we go through very quickly who who is in the team to start off with? Um so I don't I don't have bios prepared, but if we just go through them, we can't.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

People don't listeners don't need bios. Listeners don't need bios about the stuff. They're not they're not Captain Kirk.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

They're not Captain Kirk or Tony Stark, are they? So we've got Dr. Peter Venckman, um, who is Bill Murray. I know I know them better by their actor actor names. Uh Dr. Ray Stance, who is Dan Aykroyd, Dr. Egon Spengler, Harold Ramis? Ramis. Ramis. Ramis. Uh, and Winston Zedmore, who is Ernie Hudson. So they are our Ghostbusters. Although, fair to say that uh Winston is he joins kind of in the middle of the first film.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, he's a bit of a he's not part of the original, he's not part of the original three, although he is he is an original Ghostbuster, but he doesn't um he doesn't kind of join the team. An OG, no. He's not an OG. Um although I still think he's one of the he's still a GOAT as far as I'm concerned. He's part of the he's he's still a goat.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Look at us in the Gen Z words.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

I have no idea what goat stands for. People just say it when they when they when they want to be nice about things, so I'm like, okay. Greatest of all time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yes, so I I think I think yeah, it's kind of funny, isn't it? Because um what the the other teams we've we've explored, Avengers, um, we did the boys. Boys. Um we did somebody else, or is it just those two so far we've done those two teams?

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Just those two, but I mean we have talked, I mean we've talked about plenty of teams.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

We have, haven't we? Justice League and what have you. I think these guys are are are different in the sense that, yeah, I mean, they are they are somewhat chaotic and they they certainly rise to a chaotic occasion. Um and they have a they have a a chaotic l leadership journey um journey arc. Um but actually, yeah, they're not they're not born out of they're not born out of immediate immediate uh the immediate um trauma that I think you know the boys are born out of, for example, or or then they're certainly not uh they're certainly not they're not superheroes in the way that the Avengers of the Justice League are. They are they are literally a you know the three of them are misfit academics who now obviously you know Ray, uh Ray Stance, Dan Aykroyd, who is very much the heart of the team, um, you know, his research begins to identify um strange going on goings on, and it's really you know, they are actually born out of the Ghostbusters are born out of a university research project, which I just think if you pitch that to somebody now. I mean, the original the original is 41 years old, it was 1984 it came out. Um, and you you blew my mind the other day when you said, Oh, yeah, I've watched it maybe a couple of times. I'm like, my god, I must have watched Ghostbusters. I must have watched there was a point where I was watching Ghostbusters a couple of times a week, um, waiting for the VHS tape to wait out. Um, yeah, you know, these these guys are you know, it's 41. You mentioned pitching that now. So I've got this group of academics, and and they're not very good. Um, and they they they think they're ghosts, and uh what about that for a film idea? I mean, it just wouldn't fly, would it? It just wouldn't fly at all. It just wouldn't fly. But somehow um they made it work, they made it work.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

So yes, they've got a joint belief, haven't they? Which is to catch ghosts. Yeah, they do like that's lit literally their their only goal, kind of.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Well uh no, I I'm not sure I agree with that actually. I think three of them are absolutely grounded in well I definitely Ray. Ray is uh, you know, the Dan Ackroyd's character, Ray Stance, is all about, you know, um is all about the the research aspect. He he he is driven by wanting to understand um the afterlife, wanting to understand the spiritual uh energy that is sort of being registered uh under the streets of New York. He is driven by a thirst for knowledge, he's driven by latterly, you know, driven by kind of um a moral compass, if you like, to to save the city of New York. He's very much I think he very much embodies the kind of humanity of the Ghostbusters. I think to a lesser extent, uh Egon Spengler is also driven by the research side. Actually, no, I think yeah, he is driven by the research and the science behind it, and I think he's less interested in catching ghosts. I think he's more interested in wanting to understand ghosts and and what's happening in in the world, but he's not quite as um he's more of a new what he's more of a nude academic than uh than a than a he's kind of the the CTO, if you will, the chief technology officer.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

You know, he hates he hates the admin in the meetings, but he can he can make the impossible happen.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

100% strategic and he's highly precise and he's rational because of his academic background and his technical background, you know, he brings a sense of realism to um to the the team's sort of environment. And I think you've got Winston who is pragmatic. I think he's you could probably say he's a grounded practitioner, he brings a real operational reality if you for want of a better phrase to um uh to the Ghostbusters, you know. Um I think I think he like Ray has you know he he's got a moral and sort of he acts as a kind of moral and cultural bridge between the ghostbusters and the public that they serve. But Peter Venckman is just not interested in catching ghosts at all. Peter Venckman is a charismatic opportunist. He is in he is he is he is, I'm gonna draw immediately draw an immediate comparison with Billy Butcher. He's he's highly highly charismatic he's highly charismatic. Um he inspires he is and as a result he inspires confidence.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

He inspires confidence when he is wholly unqualified to do so a lot of the time. Um and I think you know he he's great at that kind of stakeholder engagement, stakeholder management management piece, he's pitching investors, he's handling the mayor media, he's charming the mayor of New York, and the EPA, yeah, yeah, all of the pe all that piece. But but he is fundamentally your chief communications, he's your chief marketing and communications guy. He really is, he really is.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah, but but so as a result, in order to have good marketing and a good story to tell, he does want to catch the ghosts, even if, even if it's for sort of purely selfish boasting gains to sell it. I mean, he's like you say, he's there to kind of sell the dream of catching ghosts and to motivate everyone. So in order to do all in order to sell the dream, you have to be successful and you have to catch ghosts. Whereas I would argue the others do it from a more scientific moral sort of perspective, whereas his is like yeah, to show off. But but he still wants to catch the ghosts.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Uh yeah, no, I I think I think that's totally cool. I agree with you there. I agree with you there. I think he's uh I think I think he is initially why I draw the comparison with Billy Butcher, not only because the charisma piece, I think you inst you I think when you see the his character uh and the evolution of the Ghostbusters only really it's an idea, it's Ray's idea, and and Egon is on board with it, but they cannot, they are they can't lead the development of that idea any further than the kind of scientific side of it. They have no understanding of how to how to uh how to turn this idea into a successful spin-out. And it's only really then when Venckman is brought into the piece that it starts to get momentum, and that's all about the media side of it, and it's all about the charisma, and it's all and so you instinctively look at that and you think, well, clearly Peter Venckman is the leader of the group.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

I was about to ask if you think he's the leader.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Completely not. Completely not. But he but well I think um I well, I mean I think what I think why do I think why do you think he is? Why would why why do you why does one look at them and think, well, clearly he is, because and I think it is because he ans in inspires that confidence. I think um and he does have some credibility as well. I mean he is also an academic. I mean he's he's got um you know he does he you know he he has worked in the same world as these guys, so he does carry uh credibility uh you know of with his you know with his with his academic credentials, etc. But um you know, I think uh realistically though, when you get into when you when you look at him, when you look below what is quite a superficial you know, superficial um character characterization of him, um I think his drivers for starting the Ghostbusters are actually pretty flawed. I I under I hear what you're saying about he's got different drivers, and he absolutely does. Yeah. And and to a degree, when we're leading teams, hey, I don't really care why, you know, on on a level, why everyone's doing it, as long as we've all got our reasons and we're all pulling together. Brilliant. But actually, he his he has got questionable ethics uh as a starter for 10.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

The first I think it's the first scene in the first Ghostbusters film where he's doing um I think it's like mind reading tests with the guy and the girl. And the guy he keeps like electric shocking the guy, and then the girl keeps getting she keeps guessing the cards wrong, yeah, and he's like, Oh my god, yeah, that's right. And the guy runs off because he's like, clearly this is unfair, and then Vengman goes around to the girl and comforts her, and he's interrupted by Dan Aykroyd, I think, then yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

So yes, yes, so he he's his ethics are are questionable to say the least, and you think, well, actually, you know, um if if if that's how the guy is on on something as uh something as I suppose, yeah, something as superficial and as and irrelevant as that, and you think, oh my god, and he's and he and he's willing to abuse his position to and I know it's comedic, and I you know we mustn't, you know, uh we mustn't uh forget that, but the reality is you know that for me is is it just demonstrates that his charisma wins sort of short-term engagement, but always charisma if is if if if it fails to be backed, if it fails to be underpinned by anything other than a poor moral compass, you know, uh that spins wildly out of control, then always that will erode long-term trust. And you can't have somebody leading a team whose credibility is fundamentally propped up by their personality. Um, you know, and and I think that ethics piece, I think that then filters into um uh you know why he convinces the team because he does convince the team to start the business. I mean, I know it's driven by Ray and um and Egon, well, the Ghostbusters as an entity, not as a business, but as an entity, are driven by Ray and Egon. But it's Ray who then says uh not Ray, it's it's Venckman who then convinces them to start the business, but it's only after he's been fired from the university because of his questionable ethical behaviour. So um, you know, again, you could call it a visionary opt opportunism, but um, you know, and he's turning their failure into a rallying point for success, which on the face of it, hey, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

He's a risk taker. You could I mean if we're spinning it like that, but then I suppose he's a risk taker across the board in terms of he doesn't seem to know when to take calculated risks. Yeah, um which obviously is a as a leader, it's fine to take risks, but you have to realize the um repercussions of that. Um whereas with him, I think when and I think he's he's the kind of sort of a bit of commod like comedic relief as well. And when things go wrong, instead of taking charge then, as he has done at times, you know, he's very much like we were saying, he'll take charge of the media, or if he's kind of in the room trying to persuade people, be charismatic, he's fine being in charge, but when things go wrong, he just makes a joke.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he's all he and and and I think you know, this this quote I've got in front of me here. He says, you know, when he's trying to negotiate with um the mayor of New York, you know, and he says, Look, if we're wrong, nothing happens. We'll go to jail peacefully, quietly. But if we're right and we've stopped this thing, Lenny, you will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters. And I think, you know, he's and you think, yeah, which is really clever, but but you know, but uh you think yeah, it takes a chancer to know a chancer.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

And that's that's how he sees the world, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah, it's exactly how he sees the world, and so that's that to my mind, his shallow, he's is he's ego-driven, he's ethically f flexible, is an understatement. But I think you know, yes, he inspires belief, yes, he's quick on his feet, and he is, and in a and in when we get to those those crisis moments, like when the you know the stay-puffed marshmallow man is uh is is roaming the streets, um, you know, uh, then yeah, he um then he is he is the person again, just like Billy Butcher, he is the member of the team you want, making quick decisions, reacting, um positively, decisively, uh with skills and and and and inspiration. And absolutely you want that. But I think fundamentally his drivers are all wrong. And and look, you know, you get into Ghostbusters too, uh, and I think you know, he's running the occult um bookshop, isn't he? Or no, he's not, no, he's not, he's he's not the bookshop he's doing, he's doing the the world of the psychic, isn't he? He's on television, leveraging, and and again, it's all just this shallow sort of reinvention through another commu communications media. No, it's not credible, might be highly effective in the short term. Basically, Peter Venckman is the 1984 version of a TikTok star, is how I kind of see him, which is why he's to my mind he's not not the leader of the group. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

No, and uh and I'd I'd agree, and I I will give him this he is an okay team player, actually. Kind maybe not as um what's the word not as kind of hostile as Billy Butcher. However, I was just thinking of um in Ghostbusters in the first one when they're catching, oh my god, what's he called, the first ghost in the hotel. Um slime, yeah. When they're catching slime, it's um Venkman and not Egon. Who's his other one? Ray. Venkman and Ray have got the guns, the blaster thingies, and Egon's shouting, don't cross the streams. And they but they respect that and they know and they respect his his intellect and they all work together as a team. So I actually do think when it comes down to it, as a maybe not as a leader, but as a team player, he respects when someone has got the technical knowledge and listens to them. Like he doesn't bark back with questions or anything, you know, he's just sort of well, he'll die if he doesn't do it. I mean, he needs smart enough to know that.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah, yeah, he's a smart guy. He's a smart guy, absolutely a hundred percent. And and I think and he but he's a pretty lazy guy as well. Really? Because if he d if he you know, as is always the case with really smart people who never really reach their potential, it's because they're sometimes they're a bit too smart and they're just not really you know, he'll get his hands dirty though. Well yeah, because he's a Ghostbuster. But no, but that's my point. He he does he does do it. Oh yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do we think of Ray then? Ray stance.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Ray is if we're gonna go on a boy's comparison, is Ray the Huey of the team?

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Oh we are going down this boy's this boy's route.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

No, alright, no, no, no. Well he's more of the part, the conscience of the team.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yeah, I would say so. I think he's I and actually I think he's he's I think he's highly emotionally intelligent. He is acutely aware of even when you think he's not, because he's you know uber distracted about his science and his research.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

He is still in he he still demonstrates a humanity that probably none of the other three uh demonstrate um in moments of crisis or just in terms of in quiet moments. He is, I think he's very much the heart of the team. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Especially when you contrast him, I think, with the other two in terms of having high EQ. So obviously, because um because Venckman is fairly ego driven, I don't think we see much EQ, um, like emotional intelligence. And even with Egon, is it Egon Egon? Egon. Spengler, Egon. Yeah, he again he's kind of so purely scientific. And I think I see this having worked with a lot of like engineers and in in manufacturing, yeah, yeah, yeah. With a lot of technical people who they'll say a lot of technical things, and then you're like, okay, I don't have a PhD in science. So I think he kind of lacks that he treats everyone as if they know everything about the tech. Um, whereas I think with Ray, Ray has got enough emotional sense to kind of pick up on what people's roles are and how to talk to them and treat them much more than the other two.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Definitely, definitely, a hundred percent, hundred percent. I think um I mean he's almost childlike uh in some of his kind of um and uh you know in some of his kind of uh behavior, uh, you know, but he yeah, and I think you know you're right about Egon, he he is sometimes uh you think he's actually quite even though you can tell there's a genuine uh love um for Ray and and probably for Venkman as well, uh to a degree. Egon generally you you you see this character, he's coldly detached from people, he's very much uh about technical systems, he's he you know he overvalues intellect and he undervalues humanity. Um, you know, and and I think as a result, he's pretty torn-deaf to fear, um until it's right in his face. He actually isn't as good. Uh even bizarrely, because you look at Ray and think he's so childlike, you think he's just he's rushing into rushing into chaos without thinking. Actually, I think Egon is more um unaware of his team's surroundings, risks, than Ray, and actually than Vinkman is.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Well uh and going back to that for the first ghost capture, I mean you would have hoped they would have briefed each other beforehand because it's only when they're they're shooting slime that they're I think it's I think it's Egon actually. Egon shouts, don't look directly at the box, because you know he's gotta open the box. And it's like, could you guys not have had a pre-meet? Like even if it was five minutes just to say don't look at the box because your eyes will explode and don't cross the things.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Like I got a great movie idea. So we've got these we've got these three scientists, right? They're failing academics, they want to chase some goats, and they always have a health and safety briefing before they chase the before they chase ghosts. I love that idea. We're gonna make that movie.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

I don't think the EPA would have been as harsh on them if uh they had had a pre-brief. Pre-meet.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

But I think I think it is um it is Ray's emotional intelligence and his optimism that really binds the team together. Because actually, I just think you know Venckman isn't strong enough, isn't strong enough a leader. Um well he is he isn't, I don't think he's a leader in the sense that um he certainly his his character is not a glue that would bind this team, and I think um Egon is simply too detached and too heavily involved in the detail of the team's work to focus on the the the collegiality and this the spirit of the team. Um Winston, even though he is an original, he's not what he's what do we call him? What do we say? The OG. He's not one of the he's not an OG. What does that mean? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Um original generation.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Okay. My eight-year-old daughter says it, but I don't really you know, I pretend I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

I say OG like I know. Yeah, I but he's not one of them.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

He's not one of them. So he's he's kind of he's kind of on the periphery a lot. Certainly in the first um movie, he's on the periphery a little bit. So really it is Ray's uh emotional intelligence and his energy, I think, that that is the glue um that keeps this team together. I think, however, um his real Ray's real fail-ins are, you know, um that actually his optimism can go too far um when unchecked. I think the team doesn't balance, it's not a particularly balanced team because he buys a firehouse. He doesn't talk to anybody, doesn't discuss it with anybody, and he buys a firehouse and just says, what a bargain! And you know, I mean, you know, that and okay, it works out, but that could be such you know, for for a spin-out company just starting out, the last thing you want is a bit of real estate in down, you know, in downtown Manhattan that's falling apart. Uh that you've got to pay for the upkeep and the on costs and the running car. Oh my god, you know. Um, so I think there is that risk as well. That is that risk that is that, but and nobody actually, until Winston comes along, actually, Winston probably is is the guy who keeps him in check, keeps the team in check.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

I was gonna say, I do think Winston brings um a balance of not being from that Ghostbusters world initially. I think we always talk about with teams having like diverse backgrounds and diverse experiences and diversity of thought, because you don't want people, you don't want the whole team who's had pretty much the exact same experience, similar roles. I know they kind of had different different roles at the university, like Venckman was psychology and the other two are more technical, but Winston is pretty much an outsider, and like you say, I do think that helps balance it because you can just get within your own sort of you you say you're an equity chamber, yeah. You stay in your equity chamber. Yeah, exactly. Even though they are very different, the other three are very different people, they're still from the same world. And actually, I think I think that's Winston makes that selling point when he comes in for an interview. Well, I think interview's a strong word, he comes in and speaks to the woman who's working on reception for five minutes, and he's like, Yeah, I've uh I've I've seen a lot of stuff, man. And then and then they're like, Okay, you're hired. But it's that and I think it's that in the first film, it's that scene in the mayor's office, like the showdown with the EPA, where you see how they function as a team. Venckman uses his charisma and his words and his communication style, and he's like a politician. Egon uses technical facts to kind of back it up. Ray's there being like the sort of sincere emotional member, and then you've got Winston, who's there bringing kind of ex like experience or sort of showing the moral like the moral gravity, like when he said, like I think it's then he says, Oh, I've seen some stuff, and it's like, okay, these are people we respect.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

He's not a guy, and I think I think silence is often gross is a is a is a let me rephrase this holding your holding your own counsel and taking time to reflect and only really speaking when you've got something to add, you know, to to add to a conversation is a grossly undervalued and underrated um skill and characteristic of a leader. And I think he is he he does actually he doesn't you you on the face of it, you think, well, he doesn't contribute a lot, but when he speaks, it has effect. Yeah, because he he holds his counsel close to his chest until he needs to speak, and I think um and I think you're right, and and and and that's I think a pragmatic leadership characteristic that I don't think we value we as in you know the the non-Ghostbusters world. That we is there is there a non-Ghostbusters world? If there is, I don't want to be in it. Um there's um that that's a that's a skill that people just don't don't don't appreciate enough, actually. That's that's that's a characteristic of leadership that people just don't appreciate enough. Um Venckman talks a lot, charms a lot, does he say very much? Probably not. Ray talks a lot to the point of when I'm bored, because it's like you just say the same thing over and over and over again. Egon cannot communicate. He cannot communicate. He is far too um he is a really poor communicator, and he just and he ends up alienating people through jargon and through his kind of detached style. Um I think Ray, uh not Ray, Winston actually, um less visible, arguably, less prominent, but gets the job done, speaks with confidence when he's when he has to, and has impact. Has real impact. Yeah, hadn't really thought about that until we kind of talked it through and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, no, I'd agree with that, and I think we're always we're always told at work or when you sort of start working, you know, it's like speak up, speak up, you know, make sure you get heard in meetings. And um that's not always the case. I think instead of just saying speak up, it's like, well, if you've got something good to say, say it, but don't just speak up, don't just have a voice for the sake of it.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Having a meeting for the sake of having a meeting. Oh, how many of those have we been? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Oh, when I say we, I mean society.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Well no, I was thinking us, you know, just well both are both. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Okay, so where are Winston's weaknesses, however?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Because actually we've spoken about his strengths, but you know, and we've said he's the grounded practitioner, but you know what I mean I I think I don't know if well I don't know if this is a a weakness on his part, but I think he's I do think maybe and now thinking about it, because he's so quiet, he has to kind of displace in a way. Yeah, because I see them having having sort of looked at them, rewatched the film, they're a pretty flat structure. I mean, I know we talked about Venckman coming across as the leader, but really they are in different scenarios, they all kind of rotate between being a leader, and I think because they've got very specific skill sets, whereas Winston is, would you call him an all-rounder? It's possibly harder for him to find his place, and because he was a late comer.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

I mean, is that did you see other weaknesses or well I think I think because yeah, because he's a late comer, he's I think the others overlook him. He's an overlooked voice in decision making. I actually think he's not not actively excluded from decision making, but he's not actively engaged in the decision making.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Um, and and and because he doesn't advocate for himself, that problem perpetuates. And when there's only four of you and you're trying to save New York, um I would have thought leaving out 25% of your team in a decision-making process is actually that's actually really, really bad. Uh it's really bad teamwork, it's really bad decision making. Meaning 25% of your intellectual capacity is not being uh utilized. I mean, that's unforgivable. When it's you know it's unforgivable in a crisis situation. I I I think that's uh and so I and I I blame I blame all of the team for that, but I think his weakness is that he doesn't he whilst whilst we whilst we whilst we applaud him for holding his counsel and speaking when he only wants to add value, I actually think he's pretty poor at advocating for himself.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Particularly in more informal settings. I think like when they're at the the mayor's office or when they're sort of when they're talking to others, he finds it easier to find his voice. Whereas when it's the other three, I think he finds it harder, probably because they speak a bit in sort of techno ghost talk, is that what we're calling it? Well also he got it on.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

But I was gonna say also, I think, you know, um you know, Winston's if you think about the professional profile of the Ghostbusters, you've got three white-collar academics, and then you've got Winston, who's a blue-collar, who's a blue-collar worker. And they make no they don't really make any um allowances for that. And you know, their recruitment of him into the team is a capacity, but it's only at one level. It's for very it's a very specific capacity they're looking for. And I think that that that reflects poorly on the team on the team because actually um again, ultimately they're successful. They spoiler alert, 41-year-old spoiler alert, they save New York and they do it again in 1989. Um, but I think that that reflects really poorly because actually what happens then, you know, he's grounded, he he's he he offers grounded, pragmatic leadership, but without confidence, that leader that just simply then becomes servitude. Not servant leadership, servitude. And you know, restraint is admirable, but only to the point when it then stops limiting, it's it starts to limit rather his influence.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Yeah, it's he brings I hate this term, soft skills. I think we call them essenti- I think there's a movement to call it essential skills.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

No, do you get what I mean by soft skills? I do get what you mean. Yeah, I do know.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yes, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

You looked confused.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

No, no, no, I didn't. I was I didn't. I was just um no, I was thinking, I was just essential skills. It's interesting how they call it essential skills.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

I'm not sure what Wow, things like being able to communicate, is that not an essential skill?

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Well, it depends what job you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Well, all maybe the Ghostbusters would have done a better job if uh they could all communicate.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Well, indeed. Indeed.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

They don't But my point But my point is the other three are kind of the the academics, the technical scientists, and they they don't recognise as a team that I mean, like we're saying, that Winston brings that pragmatism, which is almost probably just as important as having the technical skills to understand what it is your blaster gun does to suck the ghost up.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Well, when you're chasing yeah, when you're chasing um poltergeists through the streets of New York, uh there's only so much uh academic theory that helps you. You need practical, you need practical experience and knowledge that Winston brings to the table of the streets of New York that Winston brings to the table.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

But I I still think that that that white collar, blue-collar divide, um, in fact, it's not even a divide, yeah. I think it it's more than that. I think it is. Yeah, and it's and it's such so heavily weighted in favour of um the three of the three academics that I I think it does reflect poorly on um on them in recognising recognize being able being able to recognise some of the limits within their team and doing something about it. He only really comes to the fore in moments of chaos.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Now in our world, if we only waited for moments of chaos for somebody to to to shine, we would quite rightly be held out um and and criticized for failing to to to develop members of our team to you know to to meet our responsibilities. Now, Fenckman is ostensibly sees himself as the leader of the Ghostbusters, whether he is or not, he sees himself as the leader of the Ghostbusters, but fundamentally fails to do anything to develop any member of his team.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

So yeah, so I was gonna ask that. So if say they had an actual structure or hierarchy, say they had a CEO or an appointment, you know, or they they appointed one of them actual leader, would that change things?

SPEAKER_01 40:56

That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Because that the white collar, blue-collar thing, you've just blown my mind with that thinking about that, because it is a hundred percent true. So if if say Venkman said, guys, I think I should be the leader, and they were like, Yeah, okay, fair enough, fair enough. Yeah, would he step up and take responsibility?

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Uh I don't think so. I don't think so. Well, the thing is as well, I think he's not working in a leadership role in the university.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

No, no, true.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

You know, so he just he has uh uh he has a really high opinion of himself. He's not actually he's not an he's not a natural leader. He's not he's charismatic and he's a communicator, but he's not a leader. I actually think if you you know you need to look broader than the four Ghostbusters, I think, you know, um uh I think probably uh you know if you were gonna yeah I th if you were going to if you were gonna set them up in a if you were gonna set them up in a Ghostbusters corporate structure, um I think you'd probably put uh is it um I know how does she pronounce the Sigoni Weaver card? The Sigoni Weaver card. Oh sorry, no is it Dana or Donna? Is it Dana?

SPEAKER_00 42:24

She Oh yeah, Dana, Dana. Dana, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

She actually is, you know, uh probably you'd look you'd look to that character and say, Oh yeah, I can see her as the ghostbuster, as the the chief exec of the ghostbusters. You've got your chief communications officer in Venckman, you've got your chief technical officer in Spengler. Um you've got your chief creative creative um um officer in in Ray. Um and arguably you know you're chief operating officer in Winston.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Um, we're missing someone, we're missing someone key. Janine the receptionist.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

I was gonna say Janine, yeah, no, yeah. Oh my god, yeah, she's just the best.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

She's the the backbone of the goat.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

She really is, she really is, and let's be honest. She she she would put she would do really well in any doctor's surgery, in any any NHS practice in the UK, she would fit in delightfully.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Uh congratulations, you've just alienated all doctors who listen to this. All everyone who works for the NHS who listens to our I've just alienated all the doctors, no, I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

I've just alienated all of the people who work as receptionists in doctors' surgeries, is who I've alienated. Um but yeah, I think you'd probably I think that I think I wouldn't I wouldn't elevate any any four of the Ghostbusters to the role of uh of of of chief executive. Uh I don't think there's actually. On reflection, I think there's definitely a lot of team dynamics. I think there's a lot of situational leadership. Much like the boys to a l to a m to more or less uh degree. I think you know, as different circumstances arise, you see different strengths, different skill sets come to the fore, and each takes a role, and you're absolutely spot on. You know, peep the rest of the team is happy to follow. But um it's very much situational case by case leadership. I there's nobody in this in the four of them that I would say is a natural um a natural leader of the Ghostbusters.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

No, I would agree. And I but I but I mean in terms of being a team, I do think they are better than the likes of Avengers, for example. I think they've got more psychological safety than the Avengers.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Not that that's hard um really to have given it doesn't exist really well within the Avengers. Um But they do, I mean, to be f as a team, if we if we take the kind of lack of leader or leadership person out of it as a team, I do think they don't operate too badly.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Oh yeah, I mean I think you know, leadership just having leadership flaws, or indeed having a lack of clear uh you know, of a lack of of clear leadership doesn't make you unfit, it doesn't make you a terrible, naturally a terrible team. Um it it just makes you human. And I think they are uh they are they are um they compensate, I think, for each other's deficiencies. Yes, um you know Venquin's charm sort of sells the mission, raise optimism, sustains it, Egan's um intellect powers it, Winston's uh groundedness, you know, redeems it. You know, they they they they all uh are the complete team, which is what you want. Which is what you want. You want to lead a team that complements, not competes with each other, and they absolutely complement one another hundred percent, hundred percent. But they do spend a lot of time getting in each other's way when they're not in the in the midst of in the immediate an immediate emergency, they do bump into each other because there is no natural um energy coming to the fore, only supernatural energy that they're trying to put in a box. See what I did there, see what I did there.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Um, I mean, you need the board of Ghostbusters to put someone above them, really.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Oh my god, wouldn't that be a cool job?

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Being a non-exec director for the board of Ghostbusters.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

You'd have Slimer, um, the stay puffed um uh marshmallow man. You'd have uh oh the ghost in the library, you know, the the purple one that comes through the walls, she'd be on it. You'd have the the terror dogs who are the gargoyles on the side of the building, they'd be on it. Um and then oh, and then the guy who lives in the picture in Ghostbusters 2, you know, the uh the 17th century um uh guy who comes out and wants to marry Dana or whatever and have her and her have his babies and everything. He'd be on it, he'd be the chair of the board. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

It's good. It's a small board, that's what we like.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Small, efficient, effective, flexible, and adaptable. Yeah, responsive, not reactive, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Although conflicting um values, given their ghosts and their boards, members of ghosts.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

We'd have to do a lot of governance trick. Yeah, fundamentally, we're existed to get rid of ourselves. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like all good boards. We're like all good boards. We exist to make sure this organization turkeys voted with us.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

So the Ghostbusters, do they survive? Do they thrive? Do they just collapse into the uh underworld in uh in any other universe?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

I'm gonna well I'm gonna start obviously with Star Trek. I think Egon and Spock would be best mates. Like they're so cold and logical.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

And Kirk and Venckman would be best mates.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Oh my god, they would. They so would. Winston and Picard. Winston, oh Picard could be Winston's mentor, that'd be nice.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

I'm not sure I see that. I don't know if I see that. I I thought I was gonna go with um uh Ray and uh Scotty.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Um oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm going with I'm going with the original stuff.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

I mean you you threw in next generation to the mix there, and I'm like, well, hang on a minute now. That's you oh yeah, I'm mixing up.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yeah, this is the this is the multiverse.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

So confused now. My god. Okay, so um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Individually, I mean, as a team, like what are they gonna do? Like that are they gonna remove ghosts from the Star Trek universe? I mean, are they gonna be hired by Starfleet? Like what they're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

You can't apply that logic. You can't apply you've not applied that logic to it. When we when we discussed uh when we discussed um Ned Stark uh being in the um the uh Avengers multiverse, we didn't you didn't then qualify it by saying, Well, what's he gonna do? Is he just gonna like you know stand on the wall and uh you know keep his watch? You didn't you you can't so you can't apply, you know.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Alright, I'm very sorry, I'm very sorry for being so ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

So ridiculous in your analogies, my gosh. Um I don't think they I don't I don't think that anybody I don't think that anybody in Star Trek were in Star Trek uh any generation of Star Trek.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

I think they'd be friends, they'd be friends with a couple of them, but I don't I can I don't think they'd actually like work as part of a crew.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

They're not part of Starfleet at all.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Um, oh my god, no, no. Maybe if Starfleet had like an a research branch, they could they could all go there.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Oh, who's the guy I tell you who who I what I can see Oh, what's what's the one what's the oh god, I lose track. They've got so many Star Trek uh seasons. I'm sorry, Star Trek fans. I can't remember them all off the top of my head. The one with Michael is um Discovery. Oh, um the the science officer in in um the the blonde one and he and he he ends up Oh yeah, the one who has the thing in his arm, the one who's got the hyper drive. Yeah, yeah. I can see I can see I know this is a terrible, terrible if you know, you know. If you don't, you're going, what are these two talking about? My god. Um I can totally see uh uh that environment where just that Discovery Um world that that universe Discovery's universe, I can see the Ghostbusters occupying because that is quite a it's quite a radical universe in terms of all the flipping and everything and um bouncing around. So I can see them working there.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Marvel No, I don't I don't think so. They could develop some tech with Tony Stark, but I don't think they couldn't be part of the Avengers. I don't I don't see them. They'd be trampled on by like Thor.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

They wouldn't equally I don't think they'd be any good in DC. Um not no superhero no super hero universe uh I can see them uh taking on the seven. They could be instead of ghostbusters, they could be super busters.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

I like it. Yeah, I could yeah, I could see that. They're like a a very, very tame version of the boy. Well they are I mean they are a very tame version of the boys.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

I guess that's kind of what Yeah, I think you could probably I think you could probably yeah, I think you could you could you could totally link the boys back to the original Ghostbusters in itself. In in the same way as you can link the boys back to the A-Team. You know, ultimately.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Wait till we do the A-Team.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

So yeah, I mean it's just another the boys are just another iteration of of these same of these teams. So I can totally see the Ghostbusters in that world taking on um Voigt. Is it Voigt? Ven Voice, Voigt, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

I see them in like zombie worlds, like um Walking Dead. Um also what's that one? The last of the last uh Fallout, those sorts of like apocalyptic zombie virus thing type worlds. I think they'd be they'd fit in quite well there.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Well, for obvious reasons, yeah. Zombies and dead people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Well zombies and ghosts, they're like cousins, right? Yeah, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Okay, so but really, really is Lower Manhattan is basically where they only really exist with any degree of success. Yeah, any degree of success, it is lower the streets of Lower Manhattan. Um so then uh as a team, how are we how do we uh there's no leader, there's no natural leader, so they don't really score on the leadership scale. I don't think as a team seven, six seven yeah, I go with that. That seems seems fair. Yeah, it seems fair, six, six, seven, six and a half, six and three quarters, six and five eighths. I don't know, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

Six point three two. Uh yeah, yeah. I mean as a team, because also I think what's also important is they like each other. We've not actually talked about that. Like in the boys, you've got like butcher hate soup, so like with Kimiko and with Starlight, there's a lot of friction there, and there's a lot of friction when they do stuff. In the Avengers god, like Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, they have serious clashes and don't speak for years. Whereas in Ghostbusters, you don't have those sorts of huge fallouts, do you? I've not had a lot of things. No, not really.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Not really. No, no, no, not really. I mean, they kind of um you know, when you when in the opening of Ghostbusters 2, they've kind of fallen apart, but it's not because of personalities, it's because maliciousness or anything. No, it's because of financial realities. They have been able to afford to keep going. And we I think we all appreciate and understand that. Um it's because yeah, they're like like very many uh spin-out university spin-out research spin-out uh companies, they don't necessarily have the business acumen. Um but also they've been extremely successful and caught an awful lot of ghosts, so you naturally your business uh big does begin to wind down. Um so no, they're not uh they're not when when Ghostbusters 2 opens, it's not because they've all fallen out and they all hate each other. No. Although latter, latterly, there is a there is a hint toward it, isn't there, in the newer Ghostbusters movies. I've not seen the new ones. Oh, see, uh people purists are just so like, oh my god, it's not Ghostbusters if it's not, and I'm like, oh whatever. It's a movie about four grown-up blokes who chase around the streets trying to kill a giant marshmallow. I mean, come on, guys, you know, how purist you wanna be? Uh I actually think you know, it's but they are what they are, and they're fine, they're good. They're alright, they're good. You know, I've enjoyed I enjoyed them. They're not they're not gonna be they never ever it doesn't matter how many times you reinvent it, the original is always gonna be the best because it was the original and it blew people's minds because nothing had been done like that before. Yeah, you know, we're like, whoa, what is this? But there is latterly um there are hints that Venckman uh and Ray and Winston have all kind of fallen out, or they've all fallen out with Venckman. Um although even then I he ends up coming back into the fold.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

So you know um but generally I'm saying there's no big animosity, we don't see huge clashes in terms of like fights that blow them apart, and I do think there's a lot to be said about that, and how if you've got a team of people where they clearly respect each other, which again Avengers don't have, then you kind of and you're all nice to each other to a to a point.

SPEAKER_01 57:33

Yeah, I think you're right there. I think you're right, because actually it's not trauma that binds them together, it's not it's not fear that binds them together as a team, it's you're right, it it is their personalities that that keep them together. You're spot on there, you're spot on, absolutely. It is just the collegial, the collegiality of the group that keeps them together, and sometimes, hey, that's hey, what works works, you know. You don't have to do any more than not even more sophisticated than that. That's what works. Um, because goodness knows they've they face their own level of trauma and fear as a team, you know. Um the stuff they have to deal with is pretty terrifying, you know. Not least uh you know, a ghost, a ghost um um I was gonna say tube train, but it's not a tube, is it? They don't call it the tube in um in in New York. What do they call it? Subway. Subway, the subway, the ghost subway coming at them in Ghostbusters 2. Um, you know, it's pretty terrifying stuff, but they don't need that to bond them together, they don't need that shared experience because they're actually pretty pretty tight-knit anyway.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Cool. So a decent team. Okay, it's a decent, a decent team. Would you want to lead them? Yeah. I'd go in and for the laughs, for the bants. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Would you be CEO of Ghostbusters?

SPEAKER_01 59:01

God no.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

How cool would that be? You stand up at an event and you say, hi, so I'm uh Chief Exec of Ghostbusters Limited or Inc. or whatever they are.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

Being able to go down that fireman's pole every single time there was a call would be enough, would be worth it. Would be worth it. Um no, I don't think I would want to uh I don't think I would want to work with the Ghostbusters. No, I I I would find them too uh I don't I actually don't think that a team that can be led just you wait till I get in there. Nice. Okay. Happy Halloween.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Oh yeah, happy Halloween, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Yeah, and uh da digga. Can't play the real music. We uh we'll get done for copyright.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Um we also tried and we could we could sign off. Oh, um well Darth Vader, because this was a bit of an impromptu one.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

No, no, no. No, no, no, you're you went out of you're out of order. No because this is this is the Halloween.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Oh my god, it's Anakin.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

No, it's not. It's not Anakin.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

No, it's not. You know what? I'll shut up. What I don't know. I why I don't know why I was asked. What is it then? What is the next one?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

Sam's next week.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Oh, oh, Major Major Sam McAvoy talking about AI and sci-fi. I'm I am so sorry for being so out of whack. This is what happened to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

You really are, you really are. And then we've got Black Widow, and then we've got Anakin, and then Darfita, you're about five weeks, you're about five weeks out of sync at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

Sorry everyone for just spoilering the next month of our episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

No, we're not spoiling it. We're getting people excited. I'm getting people excited. I'm super excited with um to hear which one of the men all of them, but particularly Sam's episode. Uh, I'm really looking forward to to that episode. And then getting Black Window, uh, I'm very excited about that piece. And then the two-parter, Anakin and Darth Veda. That that that was a it's not a spoiler to say we've already recorded recorded the first part of that and it blew my mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

Well, I've just revealed it. It blew my mind. It was yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

The the Anakin one in particular, I was like on reflection, I was like, oh my god, actually, wow. So who knows what we're gonna do after the Darth Veda? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

It's like Christmas then we've got Well, yeah, we've got a special Christmas one, but we've also got a list of guests. We've got three guests who want to come on who we need to get on.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

You know who you are, sign up now.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Yeah, or if anyone else wants to come on, we're desperate.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

So just No, we are not desperate. How dare you say that? We're not desperate at all. I'm joking. I'm joking.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

We're not desperate.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

What a thing to say, my god. But okay, sign us off. Come on, take us one.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

All right. Remember everyone, the multiverse is messy, but the boardroom doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

Oh, I like it. Uh Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween.