Natasha Romanoff: Black Widow

Ellen and Andrew step into the shadows with Natasha Romanoff, aka. Black Widow, the spy, the assassin, the Avenger, and, perhaps, the most emotionally intelligent leader in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

From her Red Room origins to her quiet command of the post-snap Avengers, we unpack how Black Widow’s empathy, adaptability, and moral complexity make her the unsung heart of Earth’s mightiest heroes. We explore her evolution from lone wolf to team glue, her mentor-like influence on Captain America and Hulk, and why emotional intelligence beats bravado every time.

Plus: what would happen if Black Widow swapped universes? Could she outsmart Homelander, survive on the Wall, or outrank Riker on the Enterprise?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Leadership Multiverse. Welcome, Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Hi, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Yeah, good to see you. I'm good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Yeah, good, thank you. Good. I'm very excited about uh this today's recording. Uh, because I I don't really know I don't know much about the kind of the backstory to today's subject. So I'm really keen to kind of learn more about who we're talking about and and why we're talking about them.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Basically, the point of the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Exactly. Basically, you need to give a monologue for the next 25 minutes just so that I'm brought up to speed.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Well, welcome everyone to the Leadership Multiverse, the podcast where we explore the bold, bizarre, and brilliant leadership of your favourite sci-fi and superhero characters. We'll be asking, what kind of leader are they? Would you want to work for them? And how do they handle pressure, power, and a multiverse universe's worth of responsibility? And today we are looking at Black Widow, which is very exciting. Woo!

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Super excited. I'm really pleased with this one. I'm really pleased. So much so that I put on my uh my my full black leather uh one piece, but then it was chafing, so I took it off.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Um a waste of dry cleaning, eh?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Tell me about Natasha Romanov. Who is she?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Well, so yes, that's her so her birth name, Natasha Romanoff, aka Black Widow. Um so her origin is she was born in the Soviet Union and trained from a young age in the Red Room, a top secret programme that turned girls into deadly assassins and spies, which we see the origins of that, don't we, in the Black Widow film, and she mentions it quite a bit in the Avengers films. She was enhanced with peak human strength, agility, and I I didn't know this in the comics though, slow aging. Oh, I didn't know any of that. That's that's in the comic books. Um but they don't I don't think they talk about it in the films, but it it makes her one of the world's most formidable assassins. Um and we first see her in Iron Man 2, where she is working with Shield, um, and she basically tells Tony Stark that he can't be one of the Avengers. Um, obviously, that changes. Her various skills and abilities, um, she's a master spy and assassin, highly trained in espionage, infiltration, and intelligence gathering. She's an elite martial artist, an expert marks woman. Um, she has peak human conditioning. She's a founding member of the Avengers in the MCU. Um, she's known for that very specific background, uh, her strong friendship with Hawkeye, which they talk about quite a bit in the films. Um, and obviously she's known for spoiler alert, her ultimate sacrifice on Vormir to get the Soul Stone when she jumps off the big cliff into the fiery pit of doom.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

On that positive note.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Okay, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Um is she in the Oh sorry, and one more and what sorry, one more thing that's probably we should mention is she does have so her family are around just you know, they're around, um, in in Thunderbolts, which we saw at the cinema together, is her sister oh, how do you say it? Jelina?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

I don't remember. I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

That's the yeah, the the Russian one of the Thunderbolts, and then um her dad is also in Thunderbolts and in the Black Widow film as well, uh played by Hopper from Stranger Things.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Brilliant, excellent. I'm glad it's glad we're not doing a part about her family because we can't remember what her sister's called and what her the actor who plays her dad. But apart from that, right, so that's who she is. I actually didn't she is she dead? Is she dead at the end of Avengers? Is she?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, because she's jumped, because yeah, because I'm glad you've done your research. Her and Hawkeye, they they fight, they fight it out because to get the soul stone, one of them has to die uh in Vormere. And they fight.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Oh, I guess so confused by her sometimes. Anyway, is she is she a leader? Because she's absolutely incredible, but is she a leader?

SPEAKER_01 5:31

I would say she becomes a leader, yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Okay, okay, right.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

From what we see in the in the Marvel cinematic universe, I think her initial role or the way we see her, she's she's not a leader. She's more of well, or she doesn't come across too much as a leader in terms of she's kind of she's kind of networking with potential Avengers.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

She's a networker. Black Widow, the ultimate Marvel networker. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

She's got her business cards in in the pocket of her leather black suit. Um, but as the Avengers go on, as they go on, and as I guess maybe as they're galvanized, she becomes more of a leader. Um I then think she steps up, particularly after the snap, because at the beginning of Endgame, we see her, she's kind of oh look at me, she's liaising with all the different the remaining Avengers. So there's that scene kind of at the beginning of Endgame where she's talking to uh Captain Marvel and Rocket the Raccoon and she's kind of organizing them a little bit, and then Captain America comes in and they talk about sandwiches. Can't remember if you remember that scene, but she's clearly the one who's keeping them all together.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

She's glue, isn't she? She's glue. And I mean that in a really positive way. I don't mean that.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

She emerges and she emerges as the glue as well. Um I think she's very adaptable as well. She around, so like for example, around Captain America, around Steve Rogers, she kind of balances his very moral rigidity with pragmatism. Like, I think she is actually very morally driven, but she is much more flexible than he is, because you know, I think he's very, oh, we must do the right thing at all costs. Whereas she's like, actually, no. With Tony Stark, she's very grounding, he's obviously very impulsive, whereas she's much more thoughtful. And then with Bruce Banner, which obviously is probably the relationship we see the most of with her, um, she's quite calming, she's really empathetic. I mean, we see her kind of almost talk him down, um, particularly in Avengers when you know he's gone years without becoming Hulk, and then he suddenly obviously bursts into a fit of rage, and she's sort of there speaking calmly to him, reassuring him. And that's rare, I think, to be able to be such a dynamic person leader that you can shift into all these different roles because those are very different roles. I mean, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah, no, I I think for me it's she's it's interesting. As you're talking, you know, a couple of weeks ago we we put the pod out about the boys, and we were talking about Huey's uh sort of transformation from being one of the team to being the kind of probably the most prolific, uh but quietly confident leader in the boys. And actually, as you're talking about her, I'm I'm drawing a comparison in my mind's eye here that in the context of the Avengers. We talk a lot in the workplace about you know, leadership can spring from anywhere in an organization, it's not hierarchical, it's uh you know, it should be encouraged to to develop and flourish throughout throughout you know a team environment. And actually, for me, she is your she's your archetypical um pragmatic, empathetic team leader who really emerges as a product of the team. Because she's she's you know, that's at the very start, before we see her, you know, her if you think about her backstory, I mean she's the ultimate lone wolf. She's an assassin who's supposed to be, by the very nature of her job, on her own. Um, stealthy, um, clinical, ruthless. And yet, I think over the again, you know, the her journey arc uh as a member of you know, in the MCU context, you know, her journey arc as a member of the Avengers. I think I think she's and and we don't know this, and until we get the writers of um MCU on the podcast, we won't have an answer to this, but she's written very much in um Steve Rogers and Tony Stark's Shadow. She's not really ever written as uh and presented as a as an obvious leader in the team, and yet I think she's probably the most consistent in terms of her pragmatism, her empathy, her emotional intelligence. Um, arguably all the things you need to be a successful secret covert assassin are actually the uh the the character traits, the the style that you need to be a really good, you know, leader for you know a team a team leader. And so actually I think she's I think her strength of character is probably one of I think hers is probably the strongest strength of character. We might have discussed this when we did the the Teams episode when we spoke about the Avengers. I think this kind of sprung, this kind of came to the fore, didn't it? Um how she actually is if you think about the continuity of that team, just like when we were talking about the boys a couple of weeks ago, and we're saying Huey is the continuity there. I think she's the I think she's she's not driven by there's not that she's not driven by ego. There's no ego with she doesn't need it. She knows that she's incredible, she doesn't need um um you know affirmation, public affirmation. She doesn't need to be um for want of a better want of a better phrase, you know, the center of attention. I think she's quietly confident in well more than quietly, you know, she's confident in her own skills, she's quite and her abilities, she's confident in what she brings to the team. She, I think, probably better than less all the men in the team. She recognises the balance, she recognises where she adds real, genuine value, and how she complements you know, Bruce's or Hulk's skill set, Thor's skill set, you know. Um they're almost I think compared to her, everybody is a caricature.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

She never demands authority.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

No, she doesn't demand.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

She doesn't make no exactly people just naturally trust her. Um, you know, she doesn't make grand speeches, um, and she just I suppose she leads by be like you said, by being consistent, by consistently doing the right thing, and that is what earns her loyalty. I suppose we when we did our Picard episode, I can see some parallels with go on.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

This I've got to I I don't know how you've done this, so you've segued to Star Trek already. Go on.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Well, no, because well, because Picard leads by doing the right thing consistently and earns loyalty. I mean, we talked a lot about the loyalty of like Riker and the other members of his crew to Picard. Yeah, I just I think there's a comparison there, given we're doing well comparisons, but d do you know what I think it I think it I think again it points to let me how how best to say this.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Uh when we spoke about Picard, uh and when we spoke about Kirk, um, you know, we emphasized that they are products of this, they're successful leaders because they're products of their system, they understand the system, they've they've been trained in the within the context of Starfleet. So their confidence, I think, springs from the the the the environment in which they are trained. She is you know black widow of all of them. Um Steve Rogers uh is probably you know the closest, but she's she's been trained. She's been trained, she hasn't just emerged because she's like, Ta-da, look at all this incredible stuff I can do. I'm amazing. Um she's a product of, albeit you know, a secret covert assassination death squad, but she's still a product, and so she's trained, she's confident in her own skills and abilities. I think you know, as leaders, that's always gonna be the foundation for successful leadership. Is if I'm not feeling cut adrift and awash and and should you look at why is Bruce why is Bruce um and Hulk then he's he's you're never ever gonna point to them and say they that he's a leader, then there's only one person, but they're not a natural, you know, because I think Hulk and Bruce are until latterly, until very late on, and probably not until we see, I think, until we see um Hulk in oh what's the what's the one um where she's his his cousin is the lawyer and she's the Hulk as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

She in She-Hulk. She-Hulk, she hulk, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Until you see him in She-Hulk, until you see him in that, he is not truly comfortable and confident in who he has become. And as a result, he just I think he just he deals, he's dealing with himself, whereas Black Widow, I think, she's so comfortable and confident in who she is. Admittedly, admittedly, she has drivers in terms of you know her need to constant, you know, she's she references quite a couple, you know, quite a few times throughout the throughout her journey. She talks about you know how she has red on her ledger. Uh, you know, so she feels she I think she grapples with guilt. I think she grapples with those issues. But my point is, my point is, because she's trained and she's confident in how she bec got to where she is, she's that then is a brilliant foundation for her to really uh like I say, spar emerge as this really strong leader.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

That's actually a really interesting contrast with Hulk that I hadn't thought about at all in terms of being confident in yourself as a leader, well, not even just a leader, just confident and comfortable in yourself as a person. Hulk and Bruce Banner, no shade on him. He's got his own issues. When he's angry, he turns into a great big green monster, and he has to deal with that. So when you're dealing with that, how could you on the flip side manage a team?

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

You know, like you and like completely fair enough to him, he does need to deal with it. Whereas with Black Widow, and I I find her a bit of a really interesting paradox. I mean, she grew up in the red room, so she was kind of conditioned to see people as disposable. Relationships were like manipulation tools, trust was weakness because you operated pretty much by yourself, but she actually turned her trauma into empathy. She knows what it's like to be used, she becomes almost hyper-attuned to the pain of others, and I think that combined with her scar her spy skills, means that she can really read people instantly, which is what gives her this ability to kind of swap between the calming influence on Tony Stark or trying to get Steve Rogers to not be as you know morally rigid as he is, um, and that is what makes her such a good leader and almost also an excellent mediator, because don't forget the event just split as well. Uh-huh. And she actually, and I was trying to remember what what she did, but I think I think she does she swap sides. I think but I think the fact that it doesn't matter. Yeah, she does. She does swap sides. Yeah, she does, doesn't she? Although is it swapping sides that she she kind of well but but she's fairly neutral, and I think the fact that she still gets respect from both sides eventually is so telling. I mean, Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, they hate each other until until um Infinity War, when uh they obviously need each other. Whereas Black Widow, no one talks about any sort of animosity between them and her within the Avengers when they split.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

And I think that's because people know where they stand with her.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

And again, when when you experience a when you experience somebody who you're uncertain around, you're i it just it just um it makes you feel uncertain of, you know, if you if you don't know, um I was gonna say when you experience a bad leader, but as I've said in the past, there's no such thing as bad leadership, there's just leadership, and then there's people who can't lead. And I think well when you experience somebody who's struggling to be a leader, because they're because you can't predict them, because they're unpredictable, then you don't know where you stand, and so the team then is off is on shifting sands. I think everybody knows where they stand with her because she's confident in who she is, um there's never any question about uh where you know where do I stand in relation to that? And I think that then makes her a much a much more respected leader. I am much more likely to want to follow her and to and to follow her lead, her example, and to respond to that strength of character than than I am than I am Tony Stark. Uh and let's face it, who is the one the one person who religiously follows Tony Stark is Peter Parker. And I don't think it's I don't think it's it it's too much of a leap to suggest, yeah, the teenage kid who has no experience of the world is the one who follows the maverick uh with the shiny toys. With the shiny toys. You know, I don't think it's I don't think it's a coincidence that it's Peter Parker who's most comfortable and confident because he knows little he knows nothing else. He's been in school, he doesn't know another example. It's interesting when you spoke about trauma and you were emphasizing how she's used that to her to to her you know to to to influence to influence her style. I was gonna say to her advantage, but no no but to influence yeah, she's used it because and she's and she's used it and she's developed her emotional intelligence and I think her empathy is is driven from her trauma. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, yeah, what who else were we talking about with trauma as being the guiding influence on his decision making, you know, and he's in you know Batman. Remember that episode where based, you know, it's it's in complete contrast, complete contrast. Batman only uses it to fuel well, he uses it as fuel for himself, not for any, not for any, I would argue, any sense of you know, team cohesion or leadership. We had that long conversation about Batman. Don't get me started. But I think the comparison is is significant, you know, I think, in and genuine. She's a she's a person who's gone through trauma, she's exercising it, she's still exercising it. Look, you know, when she goes back and she, you know, she takes apart the red room, you know, she destroys the red room, but she doesn't just destroy the red room, she makes sure that all the widows are also freed. And you know, I think that that guilt and and her childhood trauma. Drives her, but she uses it for good, and she isn't just as as not in fairness as Batman does as well. I mean, Batman does use it for good. I'm not uh I'm not suggesting that he's not, but but she actually channels it in a far more productive uh manner than I think Batman ever does, Bruce Wayne ever does.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Definitely, and I guess just continuing that comparison as well. I mean, Black Widow for the most part, she's not got family or close family. I know she's got a dad and a sister. Actually, no, no, her mum appears as well in the Black Widow film. But I mean, they're you know, they're obviously not had a big involvement in her life, and she feels like I think she's got no true home, I think it's fair to say. And the loyalty she develops, it's kind of out of choice, I guess. You know, she sort of chooses uh Hawkeye as they have a very sibling relationship. She chooses the Avengers as her family, and she sees whatever you choose as being something she protects fiercely. And I think in Endgame, she actually refers to them as her family or something like that. But it's just interesting the comparison of she had no one, but she chose to have people. Batman had no one, thought, screw this, I'm not having anyone, I'm just gonna continue fighting for the cause. And the contrast between them as leaders, because of that one choice to detach himself from everything. And don't get me wrong, she uh she can detach herself as well. I mean, arguably when she sacrifices herself on Vormir, that is because she's choosing the Avengers, she's choosing Hawkeye, because Hawkeye's got a family, because I I think he even they they reference it because he wants to jump off and I think she says, Oh, you've got a family, something like that. You know, that is the ultimate sacrifice for the people she loves.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Yeah. She's an all-round, she's an all-round good good person, I think basically is what we've what we've concluded. Yeah, yeah. How would how would we describe her style? I mean, I think she's definitely, you know, I think there's definitely servant leadership. Um I think you you would definitely describe her, you know, I think um transformational would you say transformational leadership as well? Uh yeah. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

But not in any kind of I don't think it's uh it's more develop a development maybe than transformational.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

I think she's transform. I think how she tr I think you can say that she transforms, her journey arc is one of redemption. I think she goes from being this lone wolf assassin to being, as you say, you know, somebody who sacrifices themselves because for love, as in the love of this family that she now feels that she has and she is part of. So I think, but I actually think I think, and it's interesting, we talk about transformational leadership, and I think it conjures up images of you know great, um great change, as in big, obvious, massive, all singing, all dancing, lots of fireworks type change. Everything's gotta be sparkly and amazing, and only then if it's only if it's huge is it transformational. But actually, transformational leadership is can just take you from A to B, and B can look very different from A, and it doesn't matter how you get there, doesn't need to be all sparkly and all fun, make all amazing and and all you know bells and whistles like uh like Tony Stark does. And I actually do think she's a transformational leader. I think she is. I think if you look at the I think if you look at the journey arc of the Avengers, uh, you know, right through, I think you I think she's central to their evolution. I think she is central to their evolution, more so, again, more so than any more so than any other um member of the of the team. I actually what I really like about her is I mean, I'm saying that she's pragmatic, uh, and she is, she's a hugely pragmatic leader. Um, and again, you would want that from a trained assassin. You want them to be pragmatic.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

It's like the top quality when when you put the job ad out.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

But what I really like about her is actually I think she's more than that. I think she I think she's morally complex, and being morally complex is not a bad thing, it's it's just being human, and I think you really see that when she actually challenges um Steve Rogers to be more uh morally uh complex, less black. She challenges him to be less black and white. I think she she helps him, her leadership helps his character to evolve, and his leadership style evolves because he is just black and white, he is you know right and wrong, and the reality is the world in which we are leaders is so morally complex, um, that there is no such thing as black and white, and we know that it's all shades of of many different colours, not just shades of grey. So um I I really like how you see her at a human level challenging her teammates. Um, and for me, that's to it to evolve, challenging her teammates, teammates to evolve and to develop. And for me, that is that's the essence of leadership, is if you're having a really if you have a really positive, constructive impact on somebody else's evolution of their character, so that they're confident, capable, competent. I think that's true leadership, and I think she just has it in spades.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Would you say she is Steve Rogers' mentor? Oh because I was just when you were talking about Tony Stark and Peter Parker and they're they're quite those two are quite similar in a way. Like you were talking about, of course, the the teenage boy would look up to the the maverick with all the gadgets, and and to be fair, Stark does give um he does give him a nice new or several nice new shiny spidey suits. But actually, if you look at Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanov, in the Venn diagram of them both, they are morally driven. And Steve comes, I mean, don't forget, Steve comes from the 40s, doesn't he? When it was good versus evil for very obvious reasons, but the world has moved on. Whereas Black Widow, her focus when she was in the red room was the mission above everything else. But obviously, as time went on, she kind of realized, well, it's not always mission above morals, which is why we're in the why she is the way she is.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

I think that's fascinating. I think that's fascinating. Yeah, I think she probably. Yeah, I think probably in a more in a far more subtle manner than than you know Tony Stark or Peter Parker. I think she absolutely is a guiding influence. Yeah, I think she is. I think she is, and yeah, I think she really is. I think you I think she is the executive coach there. I think you're right. She is because she does she does challenge him constructively. She does she does question when needed, uh, and he responds well to that. You know, he does respond well to it. He doesn't respond well when Tony Starr questions him.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Not to conf he's no, neither of them respond well to sort of aggressive confrontation. Is that I guess that's the word?

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yeah, the phrase rather. But I think she's I think, yeah, I think I can see that.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Oh my god, I think oh my god, we've just disc we've just no one copyright, copyright, copyright widow the mentor, black widow the executive coach.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Oh, that would be an awesome comic. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Oh, I was gonna say we could set up executive training and call it black w calling it black widow might not be the best.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah, I gotta be honest. That's I'm not sure the branding really works for me on that one. Black widow executive coaching. But yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think she does, and I think it's you know, as as is always the case, it's easy to when you look at a team superficially, you see the strongest voices, and look, and this is always the case, uh, you know, when we're in board environments, for example. Uh, the strongest voice is all usually the one, well, it's always the one that everyone hears. The loudest voice is the one that everyone hears, usually not the one that's making the most sense. Uh, usually not the one who's the loudest voice is usually not the most competent. Um, and actually, I think, yeah, I think within the context of of the Avengers, she absolutely is because he doesn't need a model compass, far from it. Uh, but what she is, she is the voice, I think she's the voice of reason, which he needs. He needs a voice of reason, and I think you're right. I think she does over time coach him away from that um one-dimensional perspective on the world, good versus evil, you know, black and white, right and wrong. I think she actually does coach him through his transformation here. His, you know, his he's really uncomfortable with espionage. You know, we see that in The Winter Soldier, you know, he doesn't like spy in, and she's kind of like, come on, fella, right? Come on. You know, it you gotta, you know, you gotta grow up a wee bit. Um, and in many ways, in many ways, I would argue, Steve Rogers' naivety around a lot of of issues probably reflects much of Peter Parker's as well. Right? I think in many ways they're both teenage boys. You know.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Yeah, well, no, that's God. So, I mean, I'd say I have when watching them, Captain America arguably does become less naive over time and and more hardened. And I totally did not really appreciate that Black Widow probably had a major influence on him changing that way.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yeah, he goes from this moral absolutism to being a far more complex character, and again, you want your leaders to be complex people, complex because in in so much as you need, you know, to have an appreciation of the complexities of the world, to have um internal challenges between yes, right and wrong, but also to feel uncomfortable, but to still be making decisions in an uncomfortable environment. You want your leaders to be doing that, and I do think that she, in the same way that she kind of coaches Bruce Banner, I think she, you know, she coaches him to get you know through his he's having, my god, I mean, he's having a hugely traumatic time, you know. Um, talk about and then some god talk about talk about failing your GCSE science exam. Oh my god. Uh he's having quite a traumatic experience in life, and she coaches him through that. And I think I think she's I think she is a far I think that's where her strength of leadership um really I think is exemplified. She is a strong, strong leader because she too she helps to influence the evolution of these these these the the these these people in her team, Captain America, Steve Rogers, the Hulk, Bruce Barner, absolutely the two of them are the obvious ones.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

And just looking at relationships around her as well, I mean obviously we focus kind of on Hulk, she's got a very good relationship with um Clint Barton, Hawkeye, but actually, because she starts off with SHIELD, with Agent Coulson, with Nick Fury, and she maintains those relations well, obviously R.I.P. Phil, but she maintains the relationship with SHIELD throughout the Avengers, she's maintains a relationship with the other Avengers throughout the MCU. Even Clint's family, she is very close to. So she can insert herself into all these different situations, whether it's with, I mean, are we going to call SHIELD, I don't know what we're calling them, management? The board, what what are they the board of directors?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

The board of directors, yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Yeah, and Nick Fury's up there on Company's house. But again, that's what you that's what you want from your leaders to be able to insert themselves into different into situations where you're dealing with different types of stakeholders. Even when Hawkeye is under the um the spell of Loki in the first Avengers, she actually shows a little bit of empathy. Even though he's trying to kill everyone, she still shows a shred of empathy because she knows that deep down inside there he's in there, and that's because she's got confidence in him in their relationship. She deals with Loki, she actually has a discussion with Loki in Avengers, she doesn't just go out and try shoot at him. Um God, she is a really good stakeholder engagement thing going on.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

I think interestingly, yeah. You know, I mean when Tony Stark and Steve Rogers are going at it, she actually doesn't demonize either side. Uh, you know, she she's trying you know, she I think and that you know, and yeah, you know, and I think that's really important, is again a really strong characteristic of of team of leadership, and this is why she's the glue. This is why she is the glue. It could be very easy to not say anything and just let it all play out and watch the team fall apart. It could but it could be very easy to tick a side. I know she does, you know, I know she does, she ends up um well say without without but without but without demonising the other side.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah, without she manages to do it, which is a very unique skill set, and I would love to learn how to do this as a leader, but she manages to do it kind of without majorly pissing the other side off.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's clever. She's yeah, it is, it is. No, she's a highly emotionally intelligent, uh, and empathetic leader, and probably the most out of all of them, out of all of them, she is, uh, without without a shadow of a doubt. I think she's also highly adaptable, adaptable. Um, you know, and I think again, if you think about you know, in a leader, rigidity is always a problem. Uh, you know, you need to be flexible, adaptable, responsive, um, agile. You know, she and again, you know, again, I think this goes back to this piece about being trained. She has to be all those things to be able to be a silent assassin. So, you know, she's she's trained and therefore is confident and comfortable in being agile, flexible, responsive. Um, and actually, you know, in in and and in a way, probably that someone like I think if you look at because of the issues he's dealing with, you know, Bruce is nowhere near as comfortable with change as she for obvious reasons for obvious reasons, uh, but you know, she she absolutely is it always you know, like you know, if you think in Black Windows, she's you know when she's reprogramming the red room control port protocols mid-battle, you know, she her she's able to adapt her strategy to just switch, you know. And again, you know, I think that's that's a phenomenal skill that so many leaders don't have or or unwilling to lean on or lean into. So yeah, I think I think she's I think she you know I think she's up there as one of our she's she's certainly oh god, I think she's well this well I think she's one of the better ones we've spoken about.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Oh definitely. I mean well I I would want to work for her a hundred percent I would want to work for her. Um and I think she creates a safe space, so if you f fail or if you don't do something right, she's not gonna make you feel bad at all.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

No, there's no judgment there. No, there's no judgment.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

No, there's psychological there's psychological safety from her as well, which we don't get from a lot of leaders.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

No, absolutely. There's not much psychological safety with uh Tony Stark, for example.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Oh god, when they're all grouped together. I mean, as we discussed, it's a horrendous psychological unlike the boys, ironically, which is actually a weirdly psychologically safe space to be in.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Yeah, absol it absolutely is. Yeah, go back and listen to that one and have a have your eyes opened.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Um yeah, no, I think I I would I would she as a leader gives yeah, she gives psychological safety. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Because you know where you stand with her. Because she's also not impulsive. She's not impulsive, she's not, she's not, she doesn't react, she responds, and there's such a difference, it's such a subtle difference between those two, those two, you know, she doesn't react to circumstances, she responds to circumstances, and again, it's about you as a leader, her confidence as uh as in her own abilities. And yeah, anybody who is who I would gladly work uh in her team, absolutely, 100%, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

And we talk when we talk as well about I can't remember who it was with might have been with Captain Kirk, possibly. We talked about showing weakness. Um, and she, I mean, as a spy and in the red room, she was taught to not show emotion, to not show weakness, but actually, she manages to do it in a way that doesn't it it doesn't sort of make others feel uncertain, you know, she's always the calm in the rooms. Like, for example, at the beginning of Endgame, when she's um when Steve Rogers comes and talks to her, and he says something like, Oh, there was a pod of whales in the Hudson, and she goes, If you've come to tell me to look on the bright side, clearly at the end of her tether, but I think her just showing that not weakness, but almost like a little bit of a sense of humor, a little bit of like, look, I'm really fed up with that. That makes her more human again, and that's what we want from our leaders, right? We don't like we appreciate that our leaders are not our leaders are not perfect at all. I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, exactly, and she does it with grace and with humour. Sorry, just to throw it in, you're not perfect.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Well, that was you didn't need to need to say it out loud for the record, but you did. Okay, fine, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

But she does it with grace and humor, which is the way it should be, I would think, yeah, the way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

It should be, it should be, even in the face of significant significance.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

When half the population has been wiped out, she can still laugh about it.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Didn't we all? Didn't we all? So, does she survive in another universe? Does she thrive in another? I think go on, go on.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

I so I've been thinking about this. I actually think she would be well in Star Wars, I think she could be a rebel leader.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Oh god, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Like she'd be kick-ass. I mean, she'd be good. In Star Trek, I actually think she'd be a really good first officer.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah, God, she's head and shoulders above Riker. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Whoa. Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah, you guys said it. I said it. I said it, you guys said it. Yeah, 100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Um think where else would she just oh god, Justice League. Uh would she whip them into shape? Batogra and Batman.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

I mean Well, I mean, I don't think I think Yeah, Justice League.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

I think I think her Superman and Wonder Woman might get on. The rest, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Well, I mean I mean, arguably, Batman is no more of a challenge for her than Iron Man or Captain America.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Really?

SPEAKER_00 43:56

In the sense well, in the sense that he's equally I think he's equally chaotic. um I mean Steve Rogers and Tony Stark are chaotic they're chaotic I don't you know they they have yeah Steve Rogers has this has this uh I think presents a you know a a this this this perception of this you know steady hand you know confident quietly calm it's chaotic but she's she manages to navigate that quite well um I don't know whether the I don't know whether the Justice League are actually as productive as Mar as um the Avengers that's the thing um we haven't done Justice League yet have we we haven't got come on to those yet as a team we haven't no no we just did Batman which was scarring enough for everyone involved yeah we're t we're waiting a waiting waiting a while before we get into the Justice League I actually think she'd be really good um oh she'd be incredible on the wall in uh in in Game of Thrones I think she'd be amazing oh yeah taking on the White Walkers she'd be uh she'd be fantastic actually yeah she would be really good with the White Walkers yeah I don't I don't think there's any I don't think there's any other um uh multiverse that she wouldn't be no I think she would find because she is so adaptable there would be a role for her in most like even in the boys I think she would hate I think she would absolutely hate it living in the boys but I reckon that she would be able to kind of outdo Homelander I don't think she'd mmm now that's really interesting hmm I'm not sure about that actually because I think she definitely I I don't think she would be she definitely wouldn't be any good in the seven oh no no no no I just mean going up against Homelander oh going up against it sorry sorry my my mistake no sorry I don't even know if she would I don't know if she would fit in the the board like the group of the boys but I think she would be able to like she's just so much smarter than Homelander like I don't think Homelander's very smart I think she'd be able to like outmaneuver him kind of a lot of people are smarter than Homelander actually most people are smarter than him I mean news flash yeah you know um yeah I don't think he yeah I don't think he'd relies much on his uh on his uh his his IQ to to get stuff done eyes anyway yeah yeah okay so what's she scoring what's she scoring on the on the leadership scale I think a nine whoa whoa I also was gonna say a nine actually I was also which I think is is I know I know I'm thinking no I've got to be sensible about this are we over are we over egging the pudding on this one is she truly a nine you know she's she's definitely up there I'm trying to think of definitely up there of bad I mean not bad but we've not really gone into any negatives about her or is that because there are none well she's an assassin reformed also it's not really her fault ish kind of yeah yeah I mean I don't think anyone could be a ten no one could be a ten uh well that's a challenge because I know we've got a few lined up uh over the autumn and the winter and I think there's a couple of tens in there but we'll get to those in due course. But uh yeah I'm gonna put her a so a definitely definitely a solid eight probably a borderline nine if I'm being conservative about it but that's how good I think she is and I think she's so understated and of course the obvious comparison that we've not made um is with Princess Leia um general Leia and actually and I and we've not you know we spoke at length when we recorded the Leia episode about right the writing and the journey arc of you know female characters in Star Wars and was Leia a product of you know the late 1970s yes she was the writing of the character in terms of she sits within the shadow of two completely useless uh leaders um but actually interestingly you know when Avengers first came out in what twenty twelve uh Black Widow is still written you know the the lead the female character is still written in the shadow of these male these male characters who quite frankly are are really awful leaders they're terrible leaders yeah I mean we could do we could do a whole episode on women in the multiverse I do actually think it's quite telling though that we haven't talked about her particularly being the only woman at that well sort of being the only woman in the Avengers I know the Avengers are kind of have an extended yeah they're a bit bigger but initially she is the only woman there isn't she but she's there aren't many more to add to it are there I mean there's Wanda um yeah and I suppose they're sort of um auxiliary members like so yeah uh uh yeah yeah she is very understated yeah yeah I think we do we should do that we should at some juncture not in not too distant uh future we will do an episode about uh the role of of women in you know in in the multiverses um yeah something to be something to be taken apart further definitely she's far and away the best leader in the Avengers oh my god like miles ahead of yeah any of them I mean I don't even think we could particularly analyse Hulk Hawkeye as leaders no those aren't episodes Captain America I think we could do obviously we've done I will we will we will do Steve Rogers we'll do Steve Rogers I have a sneaky feeling Steve Rogers is like going to be a Batman episode it's gonna be like I quite like Steve Rogers I can't I can't deal with I can't deal with doing a 180 on these heroes that I really look up to and then we rip them apart. Who are we taking apart next week?

SPEAKER_01 50:42

I can't remember I don't we've not this is very well prepared um who should we do Darth Vader no Darth Vader Vader Vader next week brilliant unless we change our minds and cancel Darth Vader or Anakin Skywalker which are we doing oh because actually this could be a two parter because it's quite a distinct there is because uh yeah um I think we do Anakin Skywalker oh right okay no no no we could do no let's do an we could do Anakin we're gonna do him as a two parter we'll do him a chronological two parter we'll do anakin next we could do half a week after awesome brilliant okay amazing okay take us home all right well that was truly fascinating so whether you're on the bridge or sat in the Avengers compound we will catch you in the next timeline