Anakin Skywalker

In this first of a two-part exploration, Andrew and Ellen delve into the rise, and rapid unraveling of Anakin Skywalker. Once the galaxy’s most promising Jedi, Anakin’s story is a masterclass in unfulfilled potential and emotional volatility. From his precocious brilliance and battlefield instincts to his catastrophic lack of emotional regulation, we unpack how the Jedi Order’s rigid system, flawed mentorship, and poor support structure created a perfect storm for his downfall.

Was Anakin doomed from the start, or simply failed by those around him? And could the right mentor (or executive coach) have saved him from turning to the dark side?

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Okay. Well, alright, I was gonna do the standard intro, but alright.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Well, do the standard intro, but do it awesome.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Welcome to the leadership that that was being awesome. Welcome everyone. Welcome, Andrew, to the Leadership Multiverse, the podcast where we explore the bold, bizarre, and brilliant leadership of your favourite sci-fi and superhero characters. We'll be asking, what kind of leader are they? Would you want to work for them? And how do they handle pressure, power, and a galaxy's worth of responsibility? And in the case of this week's character, safe to say, not very well, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Because this week Oh sorry, sorry, as you said it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

I'm sorry, was that so much post promise? So much promise.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Well, sorry, I just slammed down my laptop in anger. Because this week, dear listeners, we will be doing Anakin Skywalker. Yay! Is this gonna be another Batman episode?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

It could be, actually. It could be. Uh one of possibly I think he's possibly one of the most promising leaders.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Um promising.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

He was.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

He was, that's what I'm saying. And then he was gifted, courageous, and he ultimately, you know, spoiler, ultimately becomes undone by his own emotions. But yeah, I think he's one of the most promising. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Oh, sure. But obviously, what happens to him isn't great. I actually have really strong views on where whether Darth Vader is actually a better leader than Anakin Skywalker.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Well, that's why we're doing this is the first of a two uh podcast. Uh next week we are gonna get into Darth Vader. And that's an inter that's actually quite interesting. That's gonna be quite an interesting uh comparison to make. It's quite a bit of a schizophrenic comparison between the same person um but in very different contexts. But let's talk about yeah, Anakin Skywalker. Um do you want me to do a very quick uh Yeah, go on, go on, give us the bio, tell us who he is.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Cool. So Anakin was born on the desert planet of Tatooine, raised as a slave by his mother, Shmi, um, until he was discovered by well, Qui-Gon Jin and uh Padme and Jar Jar Binks when they almost well pretty much got stranded on Tatooine. Um Qui-Gon noticed that he was very force-sensitive, I think is the term, and thought he was the chosen one. Uh, he eventually freed him, but then Qui-Gon, spoiler alert, sadly died. Anakin was actually denied uh the chance initially by the Jedi Council to be trained as a Jedi Padwan because um he was too old because Jedi are typically plucked from their families when they're just a couple of years old, because then there's no chance for them to form attachment. Uh QuiGon died, his dying wish was for Obi-Wan to train Anakin, and Anakin uh sorry, and then Obi-Wan goes to Yoda and says he will train him where basically whether or not he gets Yoda's permission. Anakin then grows up, uh, he becomes a very skilled fighter. Arguably, arguably, is he a skilled Jedi? We'll debate it. Becomes a skilled fighter in the Clone Wars, takes on his own apprentice, uh, safe to say becomes manipulated by various people over time. Um he then marries Padme, which is a big no-no. Uh you're not meant to do that as a Jedi, and then ultimately falls to the dark side. Anything to add, Andrew? Or is that to sum it up?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Sums up basically three episodes of uh uh of of uh Star Wars. Seven hours of films, yeah, yeah, in two and a half minutes, yeah. Um yeah, I think that I think I think um that's it.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

That's that's the episode, really.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

He is he is um I think I think first off the bat, he is such an emotional human being. Jedi human. He 'cause he's human, isn't he? That's his yeah, he is human, yeah. He is such an emotional individual, and I think that that emotion is his I think is his overarching sort of characteristic. Um as yeah, as as human, as a leader, as a fighter, as as as just a you know that that for me, I mean he to say he wears it on his sleeve is an understatement. There is no there's no subtlety around um Anakin Skywalker at all, is there?

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Oh god, no. I mean we talk about leaders having emotional intelligence, but I think and what we mean by that is also having emotional regulation. Anakin has no emotional regulation whatsoever. His emotions get entangled, totally entangled in all decisions, situations, conflict he faces.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yeah, I mean to say he's emotionally volatile is an understatement. Um and and he has yeah, absolutely no uh emotional control. I mean, you think when he you know, after even you know, after his mother's death, you know, he slaughters the Tuscan tribe. Um you know, just because he can, you know, because he's because he's emotional. Um, you know, I think laterally well, yeah, or kind of well not latterly, kind of the big part of his journey arc is you know the nightmares that he has about Padme's death, which are constantly pushing him toward darkness, all of that, um you know, all of that builds, all of all that builds to demonstrate that the his lack of emotional control and having his um and his and his almost overriding emotional voluntary voluntarily, his inability to regulate his anger, regulate his fear, he's you know, he's not able to detach himself and and and from his circumstances, and rather than I think learning from his mistakes, which a true Jedi would do, um it just seems to intense his mistakes seem to intensify um his his emotions and to the point where that any sense of control uh as Anakin is is beyond is beyond his grasp. And I think for me that's that's why he's prom that's where his promise as a leader is lost. Because he's got you know, because he's he's got he's courageous, you know, he's he's he's fearless, um he's tactical, he's strategic, you know, even as a as a as as a young boy, you know, as a nine-year-old, when he's you know racing the pods in um what is it yeah um you know I think you know you can see his intelligence is uh supreme. I think you know he's one of the cleverest characters that we we come across in the Star Star Wars universe, I think.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Oh totally, and uh yeah, it's he is actually i it's sad. It is so sad what happened to him. I mean, because he did, like you said, he did have so much potential. He's bold, decisive, arguably, he could be or could have been properly a kind of natural wartime leader. He's got incredible instincts, he thrives in high-stakes situations. I mean, going from when he's racing the pods to at the end of Phantom Menace, um, he he hides in a Naboo Starfighter and he ends up he ends up going into space and actually like kind of almost well leading and making the difference for the Naboo Starfighters there. Later on in the clone wars, we see him again, he's a natural pilot. Like, you want the guy flying next to you if you're in war. That's where you want him. You make split-second decisions, he t I mean he's a risk taker. You know, we talk about being a risk taker as a leader, um, and he does win in many, many occasions, but then you're in the Jedi Council or you're having a disagreement with him, and that's that's where all of that crumbles, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah, yeah, he sees challenge, and I think this is and and this is interesting because I think you see this a lot in people who are in leadership positions, they see challenge, and he sees challenge as mistrust. He can I think he confuses questioning with criticism, and you know, you see that constantly, and ultimately that's that's what erodes his relationship with Obi-Wan. It's what erodes his relationship with the council, and it isolates him. And we how often do we see that where you know people who are unwilling to have engage in constructive conflict, constructive debate and challenge, um, that complete you know inability to um to see it for a positive experience, only to see it as uh a question of well if you're uh an issue of if you're questioning me, it must be because you don't trust me. Even though, you know, relentlessly Obi-Wan is saying, No, no, it's not that I don't trust you. But you know, and he it gives him the explanations. It may be that, you know, I think you're I think you're inexperienced, I don't think you've necessarily got the skills, I don't think you're necessarily, you know, you're aware of the whole situation. He never ever, he is blinded by this issue because he seems to have, I suppose, you know, to put it in contemporary terms, um, he has no he has he has no in his own head a psychological safety net.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

No, totally. And I mean, we look at so look at Revenge of the Sith, Anakin is on the Jedi Council, but he's denied the rank of Jedi Master. So I think he I think they even say he's the youngest person, the youngest Jedi, to sit on the council. And Obi-Wan says, like, oh, that's a great honour, but he still sees it as a great mistrust, and he sees it as like this big personal betrayal that he's not been granted the um the rank of Jedi Master. And instead of kind of trying to engage with that and understand and have a bit of self-reflection, or maybe understand that you know there is politics, and I think he doesn't read politics well at all. When I say politics, I mean the the politics of like the Jedi Council, the politics between even in the the kind of the clone wars and the politics between the Sith um or sorry, not the Sith, the Senate, he he does not even try to engage with that, he just sulks and then he lashes out.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Do you think is that something that is is that a character flaw that is inherent and cannot be rectified in an individual? Or do you think that it is something that can be coached out of somebody, can be mentored out of someone? I mean, was Obi-Wan was Obi-Wan just a bad mentor? Or is Anakin Skywalker just uncoachable?

SPEAKER_03 13:10

That is a question.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Um perhaps me phrase that another way, rather than a bad mentor, was Obi-Wan just the wrong mentor you know Perhaps Perhaps he was the wrong mentor.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

I don't know, I see I see it as a combination of things. Um I mean it's we could go into the debate about whether pulling two-year-olds from their loving families to train them in the Jedi Temple is the correct thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Scott My vote.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

But in Phantom Menace, um Yoda when when he's first crushing Anakin, he says, Oh, I think it's either either Yoda or Mace Windu, Samuel Jackson's character, they say, Oh, um, we sense much fear in you. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. So when that's your starting point, probably not great, and you probably need a mentor who is on the same page, and I I don't think at first Obi-Wan's heart was in it, because really he only did it as a promise to Qui-Gon when Qui-Gon died. Um, and I think he describes Anakin at one point, or Anakin describes him as a brother, and I think possibly there is too much of a blurring of the relationship between mentor and mentee, um, and maybe starting off with Obi-Wan not having his heart in it. I th I I do think they love each other, I do think they have a a relation uh some sort of respectful relationship. But maybe there's no there was no awareness on the part of Obi-Wan initially, and he and he was just blinded by his love for Qui-Gon, for his old master, that he just wanted to do right by him after everyone said the boy is too old and too dangerous. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, uh I mean I think I think a big part of it, you know, I think when you Yeah, I think he was he I I agree, I think he was Anakin's mentor for all the wrong reasons. Um you know, and and I I I think in leadership um I think it's really important to choose your mentor rather than to have a mentor um thrust upon you, thrust upon you, as it were, or um uh yeah, because I think you need somebody who recognizes you, understands you, and is able to um not change you, but to identify your strengths, embolden you to to to to use those strengths and to strengthen your weaknesses. And the reality is, you know, Anakin is decisive, he is action-oriented, he doesn't hesitate when a decision is made. He acts fast, sometimes by instinct, which is not the same as Jedi instinct. I'm talking about leadership instinct, and I think you know, in crises, when you think about um in episode three when he's rescuing um Palpatine, you know, um it just does it, it's just decisive, it just does it. There's no kind of planning for it. Now, Obi-Wan's got great Jedi instinct, of course, but Obi-Wan's not a leader, he's not a natural decisive leader, and suddenly you've got, I think, a weak leadership personality mentoring quite a strong leadership potential, and it just doesn't it it has the opposite effect. It actually it instead because how can somebody who is leak in their weak in their own leadership mentor and strengthen the capabilities and competencies and confidences of somebody who is arguably completely different to them?

SPEAKER_03 17:17

That's such a good point, and I think they see their different characteristics both as weaknesses. I think Obi-Wan Obi-Wan, I think he develops into being quite a diff I was gonna say a diplomat, but he's got he's got diplomacy, he's quieter, he's more thoughtful than Anakin, and I think Anakin sees that as a weakness, and Obi-Wan sees Anakin's uh passion and drive as being reckless, and that you know, and that I mean it goes with that misalignment that you were talking about. And again, I think Anakin also does not do well with different leadership styles. I think he sees calmness as being detached and cold. I think he sees structure as something he needs to suddenly fight against. He's also not good at agree good at agreeing to disagree, which as leaders, sometimes we just have to accept that we won't agree with everyone, and he always wants people to see it his way. If it's not his way, then you're wrong, and he'll probably chop your arms off.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah, yeah, which you know, um for some of us that is the true story, true story. Just yeah, are we still talking about Star Wars now? Yeah, and so I actually I think as and what what I think is interesting, and as we're talking about this, I'm thinking um if we think about the temperament of a Jedi, it's really interesting because I think in when you when Star Wars is first written, and when Star Wars is first written in you know episodes four to uh four to six and then three to three, I think there's the the journey arc or the development of the Jedi is is sort of portrayed as thoughtful, um Alec Gimmons. Yeah, you know, um but even in even in episodes one to three when you've got um you know the uh oh who's the one Liam Neeson plays and Samuel Jackson?

SPEAKER_03 19:34

Yeah, gone and mace when Mace Window.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah, you know, they're all contemplative, they're all strategic, they're all systems thinkers, they're all let's not rush in here. They're almost the conscience of um they're all they're portrayed as somehow the conscience of the what will become the reb the rebellion.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

Yeah, the republic is the yeah, the republic, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

But they're they're in the yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

At that juncture they're in the republic, but what will become the rebellion. Sorry, yeah. They're kind of portrayed as well, I'll actually um you know, uh, thank goodness for the Jedi, they're kind of they keep a they keep they keep things calm, yeah, they're action-oriented when they need to be, but actually they're a bit more sophisticated than that, than than Anakin is. But but if latterly you then look at the ju this Jedi's throughout episodes seven to nine, and then um the series that have subsequently sort of come on the Disney Plus and what have you, uh in the last sort of 10-15 years, you look at Ray, and you look at um oh I can't pronounce I can't pronounce it Ahsoka.

SPEAKER_03 20:53

Ahsoka, yeah, she's Anakin's apprentice.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

That's right. And you know, and if you look at those, and they're just two examples, but actually, they're much more Jedi's are suddenly much more action-oriented, and they're much more um they demonstrate much more decisiveness than I think Jedi's were uh portrayed in the first sort of half of the of the of the universe as it were of the of the Jedi story of the Star Wars stories. And I just wondered if actually Anakin is potentially a more tr a truer representation of the Jedi than Obi-Wan Kenobi and what is the Jedi Council in the first um six episodes.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

That's such that's a really interesting point, because there is I think it's Mace Windu uh in I can't remember whatever the prequ one of the prequels, and I think they say, Oh, we're we're keepers of the peace, not not soldiers or not warriors or Or something, and then obviously, subsequently, there is the clones who are the soldiers, but then during the Clone Wars, which I know they don't talk about Clone Wars that much in the film, there's the cartoons, the Clone Wars cartoons, and then there's a Bad Batch.

unknown 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Where Jed Jedi do get more involved. I think actually Obi-Wan Kenobi becomes General Kenobi. So potentially, whilst you say he's not a leader, perhaps if we did a deep, a deep dive, we could look at his leadership style. But but I agree with you, they are so you're saying you think Anakin is more of a representative of a Jedi than Obi Wan.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Latter, in terms of how the stories, in terms of how Star Wars writers have portrayed Jedi. I mean, although even actually if we go back to episode four and episodes five and six, uh gosh, I mean look at I I actually think you see more of uh Anakin in in Princess Leia than you do in um obviously because she's his she's his his she's his daughter, but in terms of how she I mean I know she's Jedi sensitive, not an actual full-on, full-blown Jedi. But you know I just wonder, I just wonder, you know, if if actually there's there's there's something here about the journey arc of the Jedi and Anakin potentially being ahead of his ahead of the curve on it. I don't know. I don't know. See me at Comic Con. I could be I could be leading a conversation about this, who knows? People will probably shoot me down in flames, but I think about if we're talking about um the uh the the leadership qualities that we see in Anakin, I actually think he arguably on some on a level on a level is almost a victim of the Jedi Order as it is written in those first in those first ep in those first six episodes.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Because it's too restrictive.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Because it's too restrictive, because actually, laterally that's not the same Jedi Order that we're seeing.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

No, true. But then I mean in the in the latest films then where we see Luke and Leia and then Ray. I mean, are they maybe if we if we focus on Leia, because Luke isn't uh Luke's not a good thing. Yeah, but we all know what we think about. We have strong feelings.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

I don't want to do him any more of a disservice than I already have, but we all know what we think about Luke, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

But so and I mean I guess this harks back to our Leia episode. Are we saying are we saying that Leia is the ideal Jedi? Because she's kind of got the good parts of Anakin, plus she's not super evil, obviously. Um like, but she's actually channelled the the traits of the Jedi, of those traits of the Jedi into doing something meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah. I I I think so. I I do think so. I think and I think that well and and obviously we can we we'll we'll have to do a retrospective on the episode we did of Leia, but I think if you look at all of the strengths of the leadership strengths in her character, I think you can directly link those back to the leadership, the leadership potential that we see in Anakin that actually the Jedi um paradoxically um suffocates in him. And I think you can and I think you can and that and I think you can link all of that back to having a the really poor decision of making Obi-Wan his mentor.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

So if we oh but well I was gonna so I I was going to bring in then speaking of Obi-Wan as a mentor, have you I I can't remember, Andrew, have you seen the Obi-Wan Kenobi series?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

I've seen it. Yes, I have, yeah. Yes. I have, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Um well we obviously see a young Leia, and I know this episode is about Anakin, but looking at Young Leia, she obviously went on that adventure with Obi-Wan. I mean, maybe we're thinking Obi-Wan is a very different person in the series. It's whatever, 10, 15, no, 10 years after Revenge of the Sith. He's had time to contemplate in his cave in Tatooine. But the other the mentor father, well, I mean, he's he's after her father, is Bale Organa, who's the politician. Um, Leia the Yeah, uh the guy, the guy from West Wing, the guy who plays where it's Santos from West Santos from West Wing.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah, it's it's Santos from West Wing, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Um is having that calm, self-reflective mentor, parent figure, is that why Leia was managed to kind of channel these Jedi traits and use them for good? Whereas with Anakin, Obi-Wan and him just pushed and pushed and pushed against each other, despite there being love there, they still couldn't see eye to eye. And is it that kind of political appreciation or nuance that Bale Organa had and gave to Leia that's why she turned out the way she did?

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I wondered if Baylor's gonna is probably just better at nurturing Leia's strengths than Obi-Wan Obi-Wan is in nurturing uh Anakin's.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

I guess thinking about the Jedi, like and the mentor piece. Obviously, we don't obviously in the real world when you're being a mentor.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Beg your pardon, I beg your pardon. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 28:12

You've not been dragged from your family. But for a Jedi, it must be quite hard that you are told you're not meant to like create any emotional attachments, like you've got no family, you're then trained, you're trained up, and then you're given a child, because they are they do go off as as children, you're given a child to mentor who you will probably form some sort of friendship relationship with, yeah. After you've been told to suppress all your emotions, and I guess in defense of Obi-Wan, what the hell do you do when you've got this fiery child who has been told he's the chosen one? And I do think that rests on Anakin's shoulders a lot, that he's got these huge expectations.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Unbelievable absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

You know, how how like how do you how do you kind of get through that when you've got this sort of rebel child who's meant to be the one to bring the balance to the force, and then you're like, Well, I've been told to not love anyone, so what do I do?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah, no, I mean it's a really good point, and it does have serious consequences on uh for everybody because Anakin does believe he's special, uh, he's got that chosen one syndrome, and I think um, you know, and we see that a lot in leaders, uh uh and those those people. Oh, let me rephrase that. We see a lot, we see it a lot in people who are in leadership positions. I think I I want to reiterate again that you can be in a leadership position but not be a leader. Um and often people who think they're they're special, uh, but with the kind of ego and sense of entitlement that Anakin displays are invariably not uh not leaders. And you know, and I think that that ego and entitlement um it feeds that resentment, it feeds that mistrust, it uh he resents authority, he has that then he that leads to this sense of being underappreciated, and then it leads to him you know rejecting what is legitimate uh oversight, you know, legitimate criticism, uh legitimate sort of uh guidance. He he he in the end resents all of it and will accept none of it. And uh yeah, I I and and and again I think I think you could I think as we're talking, I think, yeah, you know, really the whole Jedi order is is ultimately I think to blame for this, you know, we brought it upon ourselves really, you know. Um and then and then they go and give a guy who is um you know got all this this volatility, this emotional volatility, uh quite a lot of arrogance. Um combine that with impulsivity, some was someone call it decisiveness. I think elements of this are impulsiveness, which are not necessarily the same thing. Uh, and then you go and put him in charge, you go, you know, he's 20 years old and you put him in charge of an army. Uh you know, he's got you know, and that is that that that point, that point where he is put in charge of um uh you know of a for of a force. I think that that then I would have said, well, that's when you really see mentoring should really be the the tool that that really guides him and supports him and underpins his success. But at that juncture, they just walk away. Off you go, fella, get on with it. And it's like, right, okay. All they've really all they've really done, sorry to interrupt you, so all they've really done is they trained him, and training is completely not the same as mentoring, is not the same as coaching. So had they then said, right, you're trained now, but now they were gonna mentor, we're gonna coach, now we're gonna give you that, then yeah, yeah, he still would have been successful as a commander, but on a different side of the galaxy.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah, and that's probably a turning point for the Jed for the Jedi in general, because they've gone from being keepers of the peace to commanding armies. And I think aspects of what they do, you know, they're driven by doing what's right ultimately. Um they are sort of well, anarchy in his gut or instinct driven, but they're not used to giving orders, issuing orders. You know, he inspires loyalty, and I think he gets loyalty from troops, from other Jedi, from Ahsoka. He does. But he doesn't but I think it's I don't I don't think he truly understands how you inspire loyalty that sticks because he's so emotional. He thinks that their loyalty is to him as a person. So if they disagree with him, and he then he he then takes it very, very personally, which you don't it's not that's not the way it is, you know. If people at work, if people disagree with decisions that you know that you make or that I make, it's kind of like, well, that's it's not a personal reflection on me, and you discuss it and you talk about it. Um whereas with Anakin, it's like, oh, right, you disagree with me, you clearly hate my guts.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting because that loyalty piece, I think that that loyalty is what he values probably above everything. Um and he because he is loyal to a point until he snaps his loyalty to Padme, to to Obi-Wan, um to the Jedi initially, you know, that loyalty it is is his overarching sort of driver. That's the val that's the value that he puts on everything the most. And um, when that loyalty is then betrayed, uh, or there's conflicts in that loyalty, trust just collapses, and I think if fair to say it collapses, sort of you know, cat catastrophically, it collapses. But um and that devotion is powerful, but I think it's ultimately ultimately proves to be extremely fragile as well, and that's why, as you say, in terms of the people that he leads, it's he's very he's super one-dimensional. I think he's a highly transactional leader as a result, because he has no emotional intelligence. Uh it he is a very one I think he's an extremely one-dimensional leader. This is what I want, this is what I'm gonna get. If I don't get it, then that's on you, and I'll chop your arms off.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

And slaughter all the little Jedi kids.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

And yeah, slaughter the slaughter the little Jedi. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

He believes in, I guess it's ego, isn't it, above all else. It's his own brilliance. And also he doesn't he doesn't believe, or maybe he chooses not to understand the kind of systems and frameworks that that operate within the galaxy.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Well, it his is a very binary view, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

It's it's right or wrong, this or that, black or white. Um there's little in terms of um there's no nuance within, there's no subtleties with uh in terms of his worldview. And and he never tries to develop that. He he sees no value in developing a worldview that isn't binary, which is really bizarre given that Padme is probably, you know, is such a such a sophisticated political thinker and an operator. You'd think some of that would rub off on him, you think, you know, but yeah, that actually that's you would think actually that's a really good point.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

I don't know if we've got have we got her on the list?

SPEAKER_01 36:35

I think we will do, we will do.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

We should have.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

We can't we can't do one without the other. In fact, we'll do we'll do we'll do Padme, Anakin, and Leia, but we're not doing Luke.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Oh no, we don't do Obi-Wan.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Oh, I think we'll do him at some point, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

But he doesn't take feedback well at all. I suppose if she were to give him feedback, he'd probably just shut down.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Um, I think he's I think Well, I think early days, early days I don't think I you know, before he's lost uh before Palpadine get Palpadine gets his um his his sight set on him, I think he probably is a more malleable character, and I think she probably could have um helped him develop.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Maybe I'm just I'm just trying to think. There's a scene in Attack of the Clones, I think, where they're on Naboo. They're in a field and they're they're skipping through a field being all in love and it's disgusting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Uh skip that bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Um but Ananakin, I think he says he says something derogatory about politicians, and she says, oh well and I think she she sort of defends politicians a little bit and say that they try to do the right thing, and he's quite dismissive. But that actually is probably the first signs we see of him automatically dismissing someone who he or the types of people who he don't believe would think like him, um you know, or he thinks that all politicians do wrong. And I mean, you know, in Star Wars, I suppose right it is very much a sort of right or wrong universe. You've got the light side of the force and the dark side of the force. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which is what drives this universe. But I was just trying to think that, you know, Anakin always wants to do, well, most of the time, until you know Yeah, until he doesn't. Until he doesn't, he wants to do the right thing. And I was just thinking, I can think we had a discussion about Captain America in the last episode being very morally driven, but how different those two are. Captain America's all, oh yes, you know, we must do the right thing, but then he kind of uses words to try get his point across. And even though he's obviously bigger and stronger and he could just punch everyone, he chooses not to. Whereas Anakin wants to do the right thing, but then has no emotional regulation whatsoever. But they've both got the same drivers, and I just think that contrast is quite interesting.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Would you uh I I I do agree, I do, and I think what it does, I think it further demonstrates that our theory about uh I can't believe I'm the gonna be the first person to talk about Starfleet today, but uh I am gonna talk about I think it reiterates our point, our theory about structure and being developed in the correct system. Uh Kirk is is equally, you know, I think equally no impulsive impulsive, Kirk's an emotional guy. Um uh he's far more sophisticated than I think Steve Rogers, I think, uh as a as a human being. I think you know, obvious obs. But um, but he is nurtured in a system that a lot that he can push back on. Steve Rogers equally, I mean, you know, he's a military man, he's come up through a system. He he feels secure in his system. Anakin has not been nurtured correctly within his system. No, right, he's late to the system, he's not a two-year-old, he's what nine, ten coming into coming into the Jedi. But I mean, that's still quite young. Uh not so young that he would have been a complete disaster. And yet I think they the the system failed in nurturing him and through all the things we've just discussed, the mentoring, the too much too soon, etc. etc. And I think you've got to a point where he he's not comfortable in in the system that he's been raised in, and so he can't he doesn't understand the boundaries and the parameters and the limits of that system for him to push against. And I think and so in the end, he just is out of control, and nobody can control him, and he cannot control him. And and I think you know, and so you get to the point where you've got this classic sort of high potential leader syndrome, he's too talented to be managed, and he's too insecure to be trusted. And and and the system has let him down, the system has created that, whereas you could you know you could see a scenario where Kirk would have gone down, could have ended up as being too talented to be managed and too um uh too insecure to be trusted in a sense, but the system nurtured him, gave him a structure uh to push against that I think the Jedi failed to do for Anakin Skywalker.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Yeah, because I guess Starfleet, they've got all their directives. I mean, they in all all of the many of the seasons, there's this massive big rule book of Starfleet rules. It's absolutely enormous. Whereas the Jedi have got the Jedi Code, which I think is a very nice moral book, which but I think that is potentially the only guidelines they have. So it's kind of like you've got this Starfleet, which are like a very established corporate, like a big corporate structure within an or which is like a big organization, versus the Jedi, where I'm trying to think of some sort of comparison. It's like it's like an SME that's not got all these, or a startup that's not got all these rules, and it's just very people dependent.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

So it's it's a university people. It's a university spin-out. Oh, oh, oh that's what Jedi is, it's a university spin-out of the republic.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Oh, I like it, I think.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Yeah, well, it's the people who they kind of they kind of belong in the system, but don't really don't really belong, but we don't want to lose their talent, don't want to lose their energy. So we'll give them we'll give them keep them at arm's length, and then they can fail fast, fail often, and learn.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

But they will actually pull them in when there's a yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

But we can still control them if we need to. Won't damage us if they go uh bankrupt. Which is basically you know what what what spin-outs are, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So are we saying Anakin would have thrived in Starfleet?

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Yeah, I actually think in another universe, I can't believe I'm saying this. I think Anakin Skywalker would have been, could have been, I think, with the correct with the correct guidance, support, the correct mentor, I think he could have I think he would have been a pretty competent and confident and successful start fleet captain.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

With the right executive coach, he would be.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

I would have put Bones in charge of it. I would have given him Bones as his uh mentor.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Look at you. You're on fire.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

But yeah, I think I think he would have I think he would have been pretty good in uh Starfleet, actually. I think so, yeah. Yeah. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 45:11

I don't know. I don't know, because I could have seen someone, some Admiral, being like, okay, Anakin, you've got to go on a three-year mission over there, and he'd be like, no, I don't, and then go break the prime directive somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

But that's assuming all of the same circumstances, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Well, yeah. I suppose if he'd gone into the Starfleet graduate scheme from the appropriate point, then no, maybe he would have maybe he j did just need structure.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

I think he needed I think he I'm a big fan of Obi-Wan Kenobi, but I actually think he did he is he disservice. And I think the Jedi's the Jedi Order did him a disservice.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

You know, I love our podcast, but it's also making me realize that some of my favourite characters aren't actually like great. Yeah, they don't really buy it. And now like I love Obi-I really love Obi-Wan Kenobi, but he failed poor Anakin.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

I think he did. How does Anakin get on in um Marvel World?

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Um, I reckon he'd be like part uh part of Guardians of the Galaxy or something. I don't think he'd fit with the Avengers. I think he's I could see him being like, what's he called? Quill? Peter Quill? The guard the Guardians, the guy who leads the Guardians of the Galaxy. Quill. Quill.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Yeah, I know who you mean. Um but I can't think.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't think he'd get on with I don't think he'd get on with Tony Stark. I think him and Tony Stark would really clash.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Um hundred percent. Hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Same with Cap. I think I don't think you'd get on with Captain America particularly well. Even though even though I would argue they've got the same drivers in terms of doing what's right, like you say, Steve Rogers is more disciplined. So even if he truly believes he is correct, he's not gonna like fly off the handle.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

But I think it just goes to I think then if you think about those conversations about balance and team balance, uh you know, one of the reasons that Stark and Rogers bump into each other constantly is there's no balance there, there's no balance between them. But actually, I can see I can see an Avengers with uh Anakin Skywalker and the Hulk and Thor, I think, and and Black Widow, I can see that working really well.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Really?

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I can.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

But I think but I think that speaks more to Black Widow um than it does than it does to Rogers and uh Stark.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

Yeah, I suppose. I don't think he'd I don't think he'd get on personally. I'm trying to think. What are the universes? The boys, how would Anakin do in the boys?

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Um I think uh well this is it. And I think he would become a victim of uh what the heck's the company called? Um Vort. Vort. Vaut. He would he he would be an he would be a victim of Vort.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

He would totally be manipulated by Vort. I actually think he would be a bit like Homelander.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 48:35

Not justifying anything Homelander does, but Homelander has a very tragic backstory, actually. No parent. The parallels between Homelander and Akin. No parents, the or chosen one, used for their powers, kind of.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Exactly. And Homelander is an is is a is an appalling leader as a result. Um so uh or is no leader as a result. So yeah, I think he would be another victim of vote 100%. 100%. I actually think where this lad would probably be the best is up on the wall. I think they would put up on the wall, let him see out his watch up on the wall, I think would be where he would probably do like Jon Snow.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

Oh, I think he'd get bored on the wall.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

You think? I think it's probably I think for the sake of his sanity.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

Oh, yeah, but I'm saying I think he'd he'd just like jump down and go wreak havoc with his lightsaber.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Well then maybe he would end up running with the um gosh. Yeah, you know, the the people who live beyond the wall. I can't remember not the white walkers, obviously, because the white walkers are the frozen people, but um the other ones. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Yeah, actually, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Yeah, I can see him living that kind of um that that kind of um itinerant lifestyle.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

Yeah, just Lord of the Rings would be so dull for him. I don't think he could walk all that way with them.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Have we done any Lord of the Rings yet?

SPEAKER_03 50:19

No, we've mentioned it a few times. We've not done anyone from Lord of the Rings. Maybe that's after after Darth.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Maybe we do a Maybe a lottery, maybe. Did you just say Did you just Lotter? Ah god. Right, okay. Right, so out of ten. Oh he's a one. I mean he's a ten. Has anybody turned into a Sith Lord? This guy, this guy I I think if there was an alternative uh galaxy far far away where he he actually is nurtured and I think you know, I I think he would be a a strong I think he would be a successful rebel Jedi. But I think I th and and and and then you could see all his leadership potential coming coming out and having really positive impact. But because of the circumstances I think he is I think he's a victim of circumstances, and I think as a leader he's a solid one. I wouldn't give him on that. Personally, I wouldn't give him on that.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

I'd give him a two just because there were glimpses of potential.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Fair enough. Fair enough, okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

And I do, and I do think, I do now think he is just a massive victim of circumstance, which is actually making me feel a little bit bad for him, and also realize the importance of nurturing our leaders generally.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yeah. Um because I think of all of every all we've done so far, this guy is this he just he just screams um uh poor I can't think what he screams. He's just screaming, he's just screaming, why me? No, um I lost my trailer thought there. Yeah, I lost my trailer thought. But the guy he just encapsulates missed opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

Yeah, yeah. Fully agree. Obi-Wan, it's your fault.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

So next week, we then see we then are going to explore what happens, what does happen what when he becomes Darth Vader.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

Who operates within a system, arguably.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

And I'm gonna argue right now, spoiler alert, is a bit more successful in a system that nurtures him.

SPEAKER_03 53:09

Me too. For various reasons.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 53:19

Awesome. Well, whether you're on the bridge or in the Millennium Falcon, we will catch you in a galaxy far, far away.