Darth Vader

In this follow-up to last week’s deep dive on Anakin Skywalker, Andrew and Ellen step into the shadow of the Empire to explore leadership lessons from Darth Vader. Ruthless yet composed, feared yet strangely effective, Vader represents the ultimate case study in control, delegation, and emotional suppression.

They debate whether Vader was, in fact, a better manager than Anakin, how his place within a structured hierarchy brought out his strengths, and why emotional detachment can look like power, but lead to failure. Along the way, they draw parallels with modern leadership pitfalls: micromanagement, authority without empathy, and the illusion of control.

Expect some surprising praise for the Empire’s organisational design, and a few crossovers into Star Trek and The Boys. Leadership may not always be a force for good—but it’s certainly strong with this one.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:30

A long time ago, in a galaxy not so far away, a promising young leader has lost his way. Anakin Skywalker, the golden child of the Jedi Order, brave, brilliant, unstoppable, believed he could save everyone. But his fear of losing control turned him into the very thing he swore to destroy. Okay, music, music swells now, okay? Imperial March Undertones. Darth Vader. Thank you. That's it. That's it. Don't do it. Darth Vader rises. The ultimate enforcer, the CEO of the dark side. Ruthless, precise, and completely trapped by his own leadership style. Hey! Welcome to an oh part two. This is the our first part two of the leadership multiverse. This is so exciting. Part two, we are getting last week. We discussed at length the tragedy that is Anakin Skywalker.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

The mess. The mess is Anakin Skywalker. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Me more blunt. More blunt. The the utter car crash that is Anakin Sky Skywalker.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Skyper. This skyscraper. This week. This week we're we're getting into part two of his of his journey. Um when he becomes Darth Vader. You're very excited about this one. You're very, very excited about this one.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

I am, and I'm I'm scared how I might be perceived by the end of this because I've actually got quite a bit of a few. Well he has certain m if we took the killing away, the force choking away.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah, or the mood, yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

No, but his his uh managerial traits, not not so much as a leader, but actually as a manager better than Anakin. Oh, good, but I mean, well, the the bar was low with Anakin. So I would say Vader is actually an imp an improvement on him.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

And thank you for listening to Leadership Multiverse. We'll catch you next week. There you go. That's all you need to say. Drop the mic. Okay, let's get into it. I I I I I'm not I I don't disagree. I don't disagree. I think thank you so much. In a leadership context, in a leadership context, I think, yeah, murder murder uh and planet destruction aside. Uh actually Darth Vader is is a is is um a much better personification of strong leadership than Anakin Skywalker ever was. I think we need to just forget to take a moment, we need to forget that he's a bad guy. Um one one person's you know bad guy is another person's bad guy. So um Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:44

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Okay, let's get into it then. Let's get into it. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:49

Um well, interestingly, I think a big part of it is because of the system he sits within. Darth Vader sits within an organizational system, and arguably the Jedi have little structure, which we kind of talked about in the last episode, that you know, you've got masters and apprentices, and then they're kind of just sent on their way to train, and then you've got the Jedi Council. But within um within the empire, I mean, you do have, I guess it's it's kind of more like a military organization. You've got ranks, you've got governors, you've got what are they called grand moths. Um, so there is a clear hierarchical structure. And we actually see Darth the delegator at the very beginning of New Hope, he he says, Oh, we're going to delegate powers to oh no, I think it's Grand Moff Tarkin, Peter Cushing, whatever his role is. He says, Oh, yes, so the um regional governors have been delegated power, and we see Darth Vader in various meetings of his generals, of his leaders, and there is a very clear structure there, um, which he seems to respect. Anakin had no respect or little respect for the sh the the very few structures around him.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Uh yeah, I th no, I think that's a really good point, actually. He's interested, yeah, he ceases to be a he ceases to be a rebel. Um as a cog. As Lord Vader, he is, yeah, you're right. He's he's a he is a well, he's part of a system.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

He he he's part of a system, uh, and I think that's something we've touched upon in s well several of our previous episodes. We've spoken about those leaders who are more successful, are the ones who are usually products of a robust system. So they might be rebellious, they may push the boundaries, they may seek to break the rules, but it's always within the parameters of understanding the rules. And I think you I think you're absolutely spot on. I think Anakin's personality meant that he couldn't cope with the the loose parameters that the Jedi Order gave him. I think it was too it was too unrestricted for him. I think you're absolutely spot on when he when he trans when he transforms into Darth Vader, he's he's put within a structure that he understands. It's quite quite a rigid structure. Now, and granted, he's put near the top of it, which is probably helpful for him, because I don't think he actually it's interesting to say he's a cog, but uh he's a big murderous cog. I mean it's well you know he but he's a big decision maker, he's a big decision maker, and I think for Anakin for Anakin that was a massive headache was for him, and a big a big issue that undermined him was that he felt rightly or wrongly that he should be and he needed to be the decision maker, and he couldn't be always in uh as Anakin. Suddenly he's Lord Vader, and he is a decision maker, you know, on the ground. He's um and so that I think you know he leans into having authority. Some people really struggle, some people, when they get elevated into leadership positions, really struggle with authority, particularly if they're in an organization that they've kind of they've matured through, um, they and and they perceive themselves as as maybe part of part of part of the team, not separate from the team, not a leader of the team. They really grapple with having authority. I think because he's not actually come through the ranks, he's just been put into or put on at the top of the ranks. I think he he assumes authority and decision making comfortably.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Um I think because he's got that role, he knows what he can and can't control because he does he does take orders obviously until the very end from the emperor. So he knows when he needs to seek counsel, you know, when he needs to d delegate up, as we say, in the workplace or seek advice. And he he understands the parameters of his control and he doesn't actually particularly micromanage if stuff doesn't get done, then he obviously force chokes and kills people. But he doesn't you don't see him going around micromanaging the generals or trying to control them. Whereas with Anakin, because Anakin is so emotionally driven, and again, I suppose that's actually another difference, is on the flip side, Vader keeps his emotions very, very, very much under wraps, a sort of extreme opposite of Anakin. But I think Anakin, because he's so emotional, that would drive him trying to trying to get control, trying to, you know, understand everything. He wanted to be a Jedi master, he can't control the fact that he's not a Jedi master, whereas with Vader, none of that, that's none of that's an issue. He's got other issues, but those aren't it.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah, and I think I think, yeah, I think if you if you if you're just talking about ace I think if we just talk about Vader in isolation from Anakin, um because arguably he is complete, you know, they are effectively two different people, basically. Yeah. I you know, you can't you can't you can't forget that he who he was, but I think although you know when we when we first when we first meet Darth Vader in episode four, we have absolutely originally when you know when you think when Star Wars was first made, we didn't have any knowledge of who Anakin was. We only looked at him in isolation as uh as as Darth Vader. But I think you're spot on. I think you know one of his weaknesses uh is that he is his emotional suppression. Uh, you know, I think he mistakes emotional detachment for strength, you know, he suppresses his grief. I think he recognizes, and we do subsequently understand this, you know, in the narrative of in the Star Wars narrative, we understand that he suppresses his grief and his rage because I think he recognises that it it you know when he when he when he wasn't in control of his emotions, look what look where he ended up. He lost everything, you know, he lost everything. So for him, strength is very much in emotional detachment, you know, and and you know, when you see it, you know, I think when you see when he's dueling with Obi-Wan in uh Revenge of the Sith, you know, rage, when he allows rage to come to the fore, it blinds his judgment. You know, it costs him his victory, yeah. You know, it costs him his victory, and it costs him his limbs, you know. I mean, he ain't you know, uh, you know, so but I think you know, it's but what one thing I think Darth Vader never moves on from is he never appreciates that you know emotional literacy, being emotion, you know, having strong EQ isn't a weakness, and that's something that never ever that never evolves in that character ever. You never see that evolution beyond that.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

No, and he's I mean he's an extreme example, and we've talked about it before, but as leaders, you need to have a balance. You can't be driven by emotions like Anakin, but you can't completely suppress them and be a robot like like Vader does until a certain point. And I mean, draw drawing on the episode Sam and I did on AI, you know, we talked about will we take orders from AI and do you need AI to be sentient, you know, in order for it to be could it could it be a good leader that way? And it's kind of the same with with Darth Vader, really, because he's effectively shut himself off.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Completely, completely, completely, and I think as a result of because he shuts himself off emotionally, I think that's why he fits so well into the hierarchy of the empire. Um his authority exists because of the Emperor's endorsement. You know, he's so he's not he's not autonomous. Darth Vader is not autonomous, he's not at the top of the he's not he's not at the top of the pecking order. And I think his deference to Palpatine shows that you know even though he's feared, um, you know, he's still very much a pawn in the system of the empire and in the emperor's game. And I think and I think a lot of that is allowed to happen. Palpatine is allowed to control Darth Veda because Veda has suppressed his humanity, has suppressed his emotions. And and I think, you know, we talk about in in in our lives, you know, in our day-to-day, you know, roles, we talk about, you know, sometimes you see robotic behaviours in in in in in leaders, and you and and I think uh you can probably point to a lot of that. A lot of that is about the suppression or the or the or the lack of um perhaps not suppression, but the the lack of a of an individual's ability to embrace their emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Because it's perceived as weakness.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Because it's perceived as a weakness, absolutely, absolutely. What but go on, go on, sorry, you were gonna say.

SPEAKER_04 13:35

Well no, I was gonna I was gonna say as well, he's Vader's sort of the face of the empire. I mean, if we think of the emperor as being the kind of puppet master sort of, I mean Vader's he's the enfor would I mean would you call would you say he's got a sort of enforcement role? He enforces obedience and compliance across the empire because as we see when people don't obey him, he just kills them. So whilst uh they are absolutely following his orders, they know that if they don't, then they die.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah, I mean he's not he's not an inspirational leader. Uh I'm not looking at I don't feel I don't feel compelled to follow Darth Vader because I'm inspired by him. Uh I think you know, he Vader equates leadership with dominance. Um, and and and as you say, he he quite literally as and figuratively suffocates dissent. You know, he he you know and and I think um you know so I yeah, I yes he's he's he's the face of the empire, but I don't think he he's an inspirational face of the empire. I don't look at him and think, yeah, I'm gonna join I'm gonna join the empire because what a guy.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

Yeah that the po the Uncle Sam posters, the Empire wants you.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yeah, no, it I don't I don't see that I don't see his that is not a he is not inspirational by any stretch.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

No, no, we don't see him sort of stand up and and do grand speeches, you know. I mean well, to compare to Anakin, I mean Anakin was slightly more charismatic. I mean, in I think during the the clone wars, you know, he was sort of I don't know if he was followed, but he was he was being and respected, he was a good pilot, you know, more personable than Vader. Yeah, you know, Vader's not gonna stand up and rally the troops, that's the job of the generals, and we see we see that more as Star Wars has developed over the last few years as well, um, particularly after the series have kind of come to an end, they leave that to their officers to rally people.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I I think and I think I I I suppose and and and our strength, I you know, because we've talked a lot, actually, we started off with saying we're really excited about Darth Vader, but actually we've all we've done is really highlight how what a terrible, what a terrible leader he is. But actually, I think I think initially, initially, and it does follow on from that piece, is that I think early in his imperial you know rise, I think um he he's he he he in I say he's not an inspirational leader, but I do think what he has what he does do early on in his imperial career is he inspires through purpose. So I think his his positioning as as the emperor's right-hand man promises order and stability in the empire, which has been distinctly lacking, and so he and so his position and his gravitas, I think, um inspires and it appeals to those who have been disillusioned by the chaos of the clone wars, um you know, who are wanting to see peace through strength in the empire. So I think I think his but again, you know, so I I do think early, like I say, early on in his in his imperial uh rise, I I do think you can you can see that. And I think that is a natural sort of progression from well, it's it's early on because it is a natural progression from when he was dysfunctional as Anakin and now he's trying to be functional as Darth Vader.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

Um I mean it's interesting we talk about the role of the emperor, and actually I didn't I didn't factor in the role of the emperor that much whilst thinking about Darth Vader, but actually he's got quite an important role. I mean, if we're saying Darth Vader is CEO of the Empire, are we saying the Emperor is the chair of the board?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

The chair of the board, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

The board of the empire, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Uh yeah, if the if the board is a board of one, but yes, yeah, he's a chair of the board.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

Pretty fitting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah, absolutely. I I think so, absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting you hadn't made that analogy, uh that that you hadn't because I I I think the Emperor, the Palpatine's role is so um not just in his manipulation of Anakin Skywalker, but in his continued manipulation of Darth Vader. You know, I throughout episodes four to six, you know, you see Palpatine constantly um for want of a better word, micromanaging a lot of the time. You know, micromanaging Darth Vader.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

I think I know who we're gonna be analysing on the next episode or a future episode.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

We can't keep we can't just keep perpetuating uh the dark side.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

We'll go through the structure of the empire. No, but that that is a good point, actually. If we if we're saying Vader isn't a micromanager and a fairly good delegator, which is apparently the hill I will die on, then yeah, the the Emperor the Emperor definitely is a micromanager though, and uh and Palpatine, and actually we do see that earlier on. Um, but again, I mean I suppose when we're thinking about Darth Vader and the Emperor, I see that as a different relationship in a way from Palpatine and Anakin. Because Palpatine's the poor, wouldn't you say, because but Palpatine operates within a political structure and so well when I watch the god one, two, and three, I'm seeing him as a manipulative politician. I'm not seeing him through the lens of manip manipulative emperor.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

No, but it's just but surely it's are Palpatine and the Emperor the same? Well, yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

So it's not an Anarch Invader situation.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

No. Oh, oh, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying here. Right, okay, I see what you're uh no, I don't think it is an Anarchy Invader situation. I think Palpatine and the Emperor, I think it is just a I think it's a continuation of characters. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because he's yeah, because he's yeah, no, I I don't think it is uh I I I see it as this I see it as a continuation of the same character. So actually I think he just I think his his his manipulation of Anakin continue his micromanagement, you know, his manipulation of Anakin turns into micromanagement of Darth Vader. But I think I think if we just take a step back, however, and and just think you know, where does where does Darth Vader uh you know where do his where do his leadership strengths lie? Um I think I think I think he he obviously carries significant authority and gravitas. And I think not just because, as we say, not just because he you know a fear. I think you know, as we say, I think early on he does promise stability and a lot of you know for for a lot of teams stability is is so critical. For all teams, stability is critical. And I think if you've been in the in the chaos of the Clone Wars, you know, suddenly the the promise of you know just uh maybe not peace, but certainly some coherence uh uh in leadership. Protection and protection is so important, and particularly if you're working in a in a hierarchical uh environment like the Empire, um, which as you rightly say it is a military, it is a military um esque organization. And I think if you if you lack leadership in that environment, uh then you will you will always lose. So, you know, I think stability is he he he offers that authority and his physical presence, I think, you know, commands instant risk respect. I think he projects calm under pressure, not just because you can't actually physically see his his features. But I think, you know, even I think everything is exploding around him.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

I mean his Sorry I was going to say on that point, his silence and his calm authority is actually louder than like a leader's shouting. You know, he rarely raises his voice, you know, I think occasionally he does, but when we see him in these meetings or even when he's up against Luke or Obi-Wan, it's he's always very he comes across as very measured.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah. And I think it's so important, you know, and you see loads of stuff on you know loads of inspirational messages on LinkedIn and everything about, you know, only you know only speak when you've got something to say, blah blah blah. You know, but actually actually often a leader's biggest impact is when is knowing when to talk and when not to and I think he is a guy of he is a guy who doesn't he's not particularly verbose. He doesn't talk for the sake of talking really um and I think you're absolutely spot on. I think when he when he enters into the the the debate you listen because he's not just screaming and shouting um and panicking and and pr and presenting an image of of chaos and and and I think and that that I suppose again does inspire people perhaps inspire is too strong a word I think it arguably maybe comforts people bizarrely gives them security. And if he's someone you're taking orders from I mean if someone's calmly giving orders like that you probably yes you are scared of him but you're more likely to probably do what he wants if he's just calmly explaining you need to blow up older on then you'll be like yeah actually I do need to blow up older on like yeah he didn't scream that in my face so maybe yeah no okay let's do it yeah but this button this button here is it this one yeah um but also I think you know let's you know he he also critically I think this for me is is this is the crucial piece of his leadership style he leads by example he gets into a TIE fighter and enters the firefight you know straight into New Hope he is he's fighting he's flying alongside pilots he's he's demonstrating that in he's yes he's part of the team but he is part you know yes he's leading the team but he is part of the team and you know again in that environment and and this is something that we see we we we mentioned this when we spoke about his daughter um as as general Leia is that you know she get she rolls the sleeves up and you know she gets stuff done and that is a that is a way if again if if if in those environments which are literally a matter of you know life or death environments if I see the person who's leading me uh is equally willing to um to to do as I say don't just do as I do uh rather do as I do don't just do as I say then you know that that is you know a that's a huge quality a huge leadership quality I think is often that we often see missing um in our environment you know people who are exerting authority without really understanding my role my job the context in which I'm working on a day-to-day basis and yet you're giving me orders you're presuming to give me um direction but really you don't how can you you how you're not you can't possibly be an empathetic leader if you don't really understand what on earth I'm doing. Well it's fair to say that he has a a full appreciation of what those pilots are doing because he he's doing it with them and and that I think is is something that really adds adds to his adds credibility to his leadership because he's not just about fear because I can chalk you with you know by twitching my you know my Jedi powers I'll also get in a I'll also get in and and and roll my sleeves up and that for me is such a strong I think for me that's the kind of central part of his leadership um character no absolutely I absolutely agree with that as well and I think when we've talked about the better leaders um on this podcast and I would like a medal for not mentioning Star Trek until now but when we talked about Captain Kirk for example and we said that about him he would go down on missions with his crew and his team and he would never ask any of them to do something that he wouldn't do himself like Darth Vader I mean in Empire Strikes Back as well when he's looking for Luke I think he's looking for oh no yeah when he's looking for Luke when he's on Cloud City he gets very I mean he goes to Cloud City himself and he speaks to Lando and he's there and and actually that's I mean again a another positive trait of Vader is he's very strategic.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

He will reach out to other people who he thinks will benefit him who he could form an allegiance you know with clouds um with Lando Cal Rizzi and the reason Lando shopped uh Han and Leah to the Empire was because I think Vader offered them a trade beneficial trade or there was there was something positive that he offered him in exchange for um sort of luring Luke there. And I mean likewise we see with you know he's very happy to hire bounty hunters as well so he knows how to get what he wants and he's not afraid to reach out to all these other different people Jabber the Hut for example as well another one in Return of the Jedi when they sort of I would say form an allegiance but again he's he thinks strategically and I think that comes from having a strong vision as well Anakin was all over the place. Anakin's vision was protect everyone which isn't a very effective or realistic vision. Whereas at least with Vader's vision it's kind of like you know enforce the em like the emperor's will you know protect the empire which because that's a structure with rules in place so to speak that's easier to follow than just oh protect everyone don't let everyone die.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah I mean he he absolutely is I I think tactically he's he has tactical brilliance sometimes I mean I think you know he anticipates moves he understands systems he executes you know with precision I think if you think about the campaign his campaign to locate when he's you know relentlessly campaigning to locate the rebel base after Hoth I think that whole that whole piece shows decisive strategic focus you know you watch him narrowing his possibilities he's delegating his intelligence gathering and the speed with the decisiveness with which he moves the fleet I mean it's pretty ruthless and that's what it needed it's effective that's that the circumstances required decision and he was decisive and I think I think you know and I I think that you know that focus and that determination arguably is a double edged sword with him because I think or double edged um lightsaber uh it is um you know because actually I think ultimately ultimately I think he he does become singularly focused uh latterly you know on on an issue go on what with Luke do you mean or yeah yes yeah and that blind and ultimately that blinds him um but but I think you know his persistence his persistence you know in you know in if you think again you know his focus and his determination he outstrategizes multiple commanders on the rebel side during Empire Strikes Back you know um and you know and and as I say you know and and the fact that he then personally pilots himself into danger uh really re you know reinforces his his strategic focus and his determination but as I say latterly then I think in Return of the Jedi we see that become his downfall because he becomes singularly focused on one issue rather than the big the the the strategic system yeah well I was gonna say yeah the big picture of the galaxy but the strategic you know the system of the empire which he understands and leans into and responds well to when he falters when he falls it's because of his again it's ultimately because of his inability and Anakin's inability to manage his emotions would we say the culture of the empire is a success I was gonna say positive but it's probably not the right term how do you mean in what in what way what way would you or in what way do you mean a success well I was just thinking that again I mean subsequently over the last few years we have seen so many Star Wars well we had the the sequels the Star Wars shows and the empire survives I mean in uh in Mandalorian for example you know we see still the sort of remnants of the Empire um we see I can't what's he called oh the guy who's in Breaking Bad the chicken guy from Breaking Bad I mean John Carlo Esposito John Carlo Esposito He's also in the boys anyway you know so the Empire is still surviving with uh and then obviously it kind of survives with Kylo Wren in the sequels but I suppose maybe it's not to do with culture but is that not a testament to Darth Vader that the Empire has survived for twenty five years after he died I don't think that's anything to do with Veda is that not his legacy no or is that the st is that the structure is that because there was a structure in place and not Yeah well that's a testament to the Empire then as an organization absolutely and arguably I would say it's testament to the Emperor I mean you know we'll do Palpatine in a future episode but actually the Empire is testament to Palpatine's leadership I don't think it's to do with I don't think it's I don't think it's Vader's legacy. I think I think Vader is used lat you know latterly as a as you know as a poster boy for the Empire as we said he's the face of the Empire long after he's dead um and he's almost you know he's used as a kind of a a focal point you know a rallying point for um the Empire but um I think that's more to do with uh I think that's more to do with um Palpatine manip again manipulating um Vader's character even after he's dead but you know using him for for his for his own purposes yeah well I suppose with Kylo Wren I mean Kylo Wren is he has the the chard helmet and I can't remember he says something I will live up to you grandfather I can't remember what he says exactly but it's something like that but I sp yeah but I suppose it's not actually the grandfather it's not Vader's legacy it's Palpatine. Palpatine's legacy yeah yeah yeah I would say so absolutely Palpatine's a great leader I can't wait to do him he's uh but we'll do him next year let's do him in 2026 I I need to do something else and st I'm Star Wars out I've watched all I've watched everything in in just to build up to this episode I need a break you see you see I felt like I didn't need to because I've seen Star Wars seven million times um so so where does where does Darth Vader sit in in in our ranking we haven't still put it together don't we? But what is where does he score? How does he score as a leader? Good thing is I can't remember how we scored Anakin which is probably good so I I don't think we scored not very high I mean I mean I think he was our lowest ever I think if I'm not mistaken we I maybe didn't even I think we went I didn't even score him yeah um yeah I think we scored him point five for sometimes he was awake so therefore he had he wasn't evil once um I would oh my god I'd give Vader a four to a four or five maybe what would you give him yeah I think I think I was probably good yeah five five or six actually I think didn't we give Tony Stark a six yeah um because Tony Stark's not a great leader we had that we we he's not a good leader force choke people yeah but yeah okay but yes okay except oh so now we okay so now we have to contextualize now we have to contextualize all our scores on the basis of who does and doesn't murder people because if that's the case we have to go right back through all of them.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

I suppose we haven't discussed our criteria all right no no well again we don't have to agree you want to give him a six I I would give him a six actually because I think because uh because he leads by example uh which I think is so important he provides stability I think he is a str he is strategic he is a systems thinker um and I think and I think you know he at the time when the time when the Empire obviously within the context of what Palpatine wants to achieve with the Empire um at the time when the Empire was Tartarin I think his his uh Darth Vader's strength of character strength of character albeit it's a very dark character but his strength of character gave the give uh gives the Empire exactly what it needs to to to s to stop that that that Tartarin so I I think he lets himself down because he kills some people agreed agreed um and he's not very nice um but I would I would give him I would score him a six personally yeah yeah yeah he's also fairly self-aware I think he knows his strengths and his weaknesses whereas Anakin I don't oh go on oh go on yeah go on yeah go on yeah go on I don't think Anakin did I don't think Anakin did at all I mean if we talk about strengths Vader knows when to get involved and when not for example getting in the um getting in his TIE fighter he knows he's a good pilot he knows he can get involved there and he doesn't wield his force powers around yeah he's not he's not wild constraint no he he uses them when he needs to which again I think shows self-awareness self-control whereas when Anakin got angry he would literally just go around murdering children as he did sometimes whereas with Vader at least he's sort of as we said before calm sits there then yes he'll use the force but he doesn't just like he's not got a pile of papers that he's suddenly using the force and throwing the pile of papers away like he's not he's not really constrained.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

He's not wild. But he does but then until until he until he is until he is I suppose he gets as as the films go on then yes I mean as we said when he gets when it it blurs yeah yeah and that's when it's interesting because you say you know because being self-aware is such a such a central component of emotional intelligence I think he's aware of his capabilities his practical pragmatic sort of skills and but I don't think he's emo he's he's not emotionally self-aware and I think that's why I think that's where he as a leader you know he's on he's actually if I suppose you he's actually he's on the edge constantly on reflection if you think about him and you think about him as a whole from Anakin the teenager not as a young lad not when he not when he's shooting about like fancy menace no no but if you think of him as a young as a as a as a late teenager young man into into becoming Lord Vader to his death he's constantly emotionally he's on even his suppression is is a conscience is a conscious effort by Darth Vader to suppress his emotions he's constantly on the edge and you know as a team you can tell when a leader is constantly on the edge. Oh god yeah and I think where as a leader where he where I where I where he for me where he drops his where he drops his points his score dips significantly not that he's unpredictable because you're right he does control himself he you know you're not thinking oh god if I say something wrong he's gonna kill me but you are thinking if I if I say something wrong he's gonna kill me so you know he doesn't actually follow through with the threat very often but his control through through fear which I think is m driven by the fact that emotionally he is just so unstable um that's for me is is is is fundament is is his fundamental flaw and and you see it right through you see and like I say you know when you know when you're working in a team and a leader is not in control of themselves not in control of their emotions um I actually think that you know for me thinking about what constitutes strength of leadership or or or or or or lack of of good of leadership is is all built around that emotional piece. And and whether somebody is is approachable uh or not or in control of themselves or not and that for me is is is where he is quite a terrifying character.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

Yeah yeah isn't it funny though you can have all these other fairly positive attributes like with Darth Vader as we've just said he's very strategic he has some self control he's a good um good at stakeholder engagement and I guess it's the same stakeholders engagement I love that yeah oh dear me imagine doing a stakeholder engagement strategy with Darth Vader I know I know you're busy but can we just have an hour to sit down and talk about it can we do the mapping I just want to work out who are our primary stakeholders in this exercise okay yeah cool is Jabba the Hut a green or a red when we rank him yeah and could you could you just update this report just let me know what what's the latest on that conversation you had with him I've lost sorry I interrupted you sorry I didn't know that was that was so much fun doing that how could somebody that you could be good at everything else but if you fall down on that one thing which is emotional intelligence which is linked with having a lot of self-awareness that could be your downfall as a leader with Darth Vader it's quite a grand scale because of who he is but but I do think that you could replicate that for most leaders across the board like I think we're wait I think I think when you see people fail when you see leaders fall I would argue it is invariably invariably that's a strong statement but it it feels more more often than not I'll temper it more often than not they fail not because of the substance of their job because of the substance of their character and it is they are if they are not in they are not aware of and in control of their emotion their emotions and then and their emotion intelligence that is where they fail and I when I'm and I say control not meaning suppression but I mean control.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

You know understanding when you can be emotional when you can let loose when you do need to pull back when you do need to restrain when you can be honest that's control. And I think again people misunderstand the term control means rigidity and that's not what it means at all. Control means letting your emotions your character your strength of character Letting your emotions breathe. And I think people really struggle with that. And to my mind, that's where Darth Vader really, you know, really falls down. And it's interesting because his journey arc might be different as Darth Vader than Anakin Skywalker, but ultimately each concludes in exactly the same way and for exactly the same reason, which is his lack of emotional awareness and his emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

But with extremes. But extremes. Extremes.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

But ultimately they end exactly the same for exactly the same reason.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Oh, interesting. Yeah. I hadn't thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

So where does he so does he survive? How does Darth Vader? I love that. How would Darth Vader? Let's do the obvious one first. Would Darth Vader be a successful um what is it? A general in um Starfleet.

SPEAKER_04 45:00

So you're gonna roll your eyes with what I'm about to say. You're gonna really roll your eyes with what I'm about to say. There is an episode in the original Star Trek series with Shatner in.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Already rolling my eyes. Go on, already doing it.

SPEAKER_04 45:13

The mirror universe. Have you seen it? Where they have there's a transporter malfunction and they end up in a universe where they're all really evil. Spock's got a beard. It's really funny. They've all got beards.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Because facial hair equates to an evil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:28

No, because because they're in that universe, it does, but they're all they are all gen genuinely evil.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

He would fit in well in an evil Starfleet, which I guess would kind of be like the Empire, because we said the Empire is a military-esque organization, and it's up for debate. Starfleet can kind of sometimes operate that way. So in an evil universe of that, sure. In like regular Star Trek universe, I I don't know. I he would probably like the structure. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 46:07

I think I don't think he would survive in Starfleet. They wouldn't I I mean they wouldn't have him in Starfleet, would they? I think he would survive.

SPEAKER_04 46:18

That's why I'd be an evil Starfleet.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Well or maybe I should have rather than saying Starfleet, this is my my miss. Maybe I should have said within the Star Trek universe, rather, because actually I think you'd be really good in the Romulin Empire.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Oh, oh, check you. Very impressed. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:38

Sorry, sorry. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Well, how how low have we sunk?

SPEAKER_04 46:45

Tables have turned. Because I was thinking Klingon, but I was like, no, they'd probably just like literally tear his robotic limbs off in the Klingons.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Yeah, I think he's too I think he's he's too controlled for Klingons.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

But I think it'd be really good for the with the Romulans.

SPEAKER_04 47:06

Yeah. Wow. Stunned. But yes, yeah. I because I was actually when you were talking about emotional control, I was thinking about Spock, because obviously Spock, everyone thinks Spock's got no emotions, but actually Spock just keeps his emotions very much controlled.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

Anyway, that nugget.

SPEAKER_04 47:24

Um Marvel?

SPEAKER_01 47:30

No. No. Um I just I you just you know, he's just he's the type of I mean I can't even see him I can't even see him on being on Thanos' team. You know, he just doesn't he doesn't he doesn't align with anybody.

SPEAKER_04 47:51

Is it they've both they've both got fake arms, but Bucky you know Bucky Winter Soldier.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:03

If Bucky never went good again because Bucky obviously becomes evil maybe a little bit he's got kind of the tragic story of Bucky ish.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

I just it just not res none of it's resonant. You know when some this is the first time we've done a character that I just cannot I cannot picture him I can I can't even sue I can't sue doesn't help it doesn't help but I tell you where I would like to see him I would like to see him go up against oh go up against Homelander for leadership of the seven I just think Homelander would just slice him in half and that would be that well there you go there you go where well so he doesn't fit there's only one place for him there we have to go onto the wall What about we've not done them in X-Men is he not a bit magn like Magneto? Oh yeah okay yeah yeah yeah he could be part of that crew I can s yeah yeah he could be part of that crew yeah I can see that maybe it's the helmet maybe it's they both got helmets maybe maybe yeah maybe it's uh maybe we're we're being tripped up by the helmets maybe but I could I I understand what you're saying I I can see that I can see that working I can see that because yeah yeah because Darth Vade is not the ultimate leader Palpatine is the Emperor is the ultimate leader and he's come he's quite happy if I say happy content to work in the hierarchy so arguably maybe I'm looking at this all wrong actually maybe yeah maybe in in maybe in that crew he would he would fit quite well and maybe maybe he would be in the seven but not not as under homelander yeah under homel yeah there you go he could yeah yeah he's a cog he's a he's a big he's a big scary cog but he's still a cog that's a good point actually so maybe he is part of the seven but not as not challenging supremacy just being because who's the other one who's the one in the seven who never speaks oh um I can't remember you know you know the one I mean and the listeners you know the one you know the what I mean so he's kind of like that he's kind of like that he's really really dangerous really dangerous but not so dangerous that he can't be that he's not not part of the team now well we'll look at look at it afterwards not during the not during the middle you can't go googling during the middle of the report black noir black noir noir black noir my god I don't even that was too quick to google I actually think maybe you've just got massive posters screensaver on your on your computer with just pictures of the of everybody it would be the seven it would be the boy don't make me get my Carl Urban photo out who Billy Butcher of course you met him you met him you met him a couple of weeks ago at Comic in London after the disappointment of Anson Mount who I'm still haven't forgiven who didn't come to Blackpool I did manage to meet Billy Butcher and Bones in Star Trek and Thingy in Lord of the Rings Omer Ema can't say it. Brilliant amazing cool who are we doing next we uh big departure we're going back to DC next oh of course of course we're doing Wonder Woman I am actually very excited about doing Wonder Woman yeah I'm gonna have to I I think I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to rewatch yeah I have seen the I have seen the films but the films I'm gonna go back to the 1970s and watch the entire series do we need to differentiate again like we did with Batman I knew when we agreed that we were going to do Wonder Woman which Wonder Woman you weren't thinking of no we can do the we can do OG Wonder Woman I do not mind.

SPEAKER_04 52:31

Uh no no we'll do the the the more recent iteration yeah she's in Justice League as well I mean I need to watch all of them now between now and next week all right okay cool excellent that's our homework for next week go on take us home awesome oh uh okay uh you can't remember the M The Empire I was I was gonna make it up the empire just because the empire is messy doesn't mean the boardroom has to be is that it no that didn't work I changed it no it didn't work also the Empire's not very messy I I really respect the Empire as an organization so we'll see you next week may the force be with you by the way