The Mandalorian

Season two opens with a return to the Leadership Multiverse after a winter hiatus, and a shift straight into the outer rim. This week we explore the leadership qualities of The Mandalorian, a character who challenges conventional ideas of what leadership looks like.

At first glance, he's not an obvious leader but Ellen and Andrew examine how his journey from compliant rule-follower to adaptive, values-led decision-maker, reflects a deeper leadership evolution. This is the way.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Really good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

I am I'm good. Welcome back to the what are we? I don't even remember what we're called. It's been so long since we recorded a podcast, The Leadership Multiverse. Welcome back. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

You're good. It's been a minute.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

It has been a minute. We've had a little bit of a hiatus over the winter. Um since we since we put uh since we kicked, I was gonna say, since we kicked Wonder Woman out the door uh at the start of December, life took over, unfortunately, and we've we've had a bit of a break. But we are back. You're hibernating. Yeah, we were hibernating. That's right. Like all good supervillains. I've been hyper hibern hibernating. Um and now we're back, and we're we're back fresh. It's the spring, the sun is shining, the leaves are yeah, the leave, the buds are blooming. Well, if you're in the northern hemisphere, obviously in the southern hemisphere, you're now going in the winter. Hello to our listeners in Australia and and South Africa and and other places in the southern hemisphere. Yeah, so we apologize that we're talking about spring, but all new fresh, fresh, new leadership multiverse. We are in this you know what? Season two. Season two. We did season one, season two of them of the multiverse. What are we kicking off with?

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Mandalorian. I am so excited for this.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

You've been doing I think after after uh your um insistence on uh Star Trek icons, this one is the one that you've been you've been you've been banging on at me that we need to do, we need to do, we need to do. This was the second, the second, after Jean-Luc Picard. Um, this was like the one you've been you've been wanting to do first since we started the pod back last summer. So uh and I can be honest with you, I'm I've been doing my research. You this is this is when you're gonna have to you're gonna have to nurse me through this because I'm I'm struggling a wee bit with this one. I'm struggling a wee bit.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

In what sense? As in you don't think he's a good leader, or oh no, oh you so you say there's no such thing as a bad leader, it's just you're a leader or you're not.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yeah, that's true. I do say that. I do say that. Well, I'm just I was just I've been watching it, I've been like, right, okay. Well, yeah, not I just don't see help me help me see. I'm not sure I see the leadership qualities as explicitly as I've seen in other characters, and I'm looking at this and I'm like, okay, Ellen's gonna need to help me. This is so you're gonna need to talk me through why why why why are we doing Mandalorian? Why is why is why is he such a a a big a big icon, a leadership icon for you?

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Um I think because he starts off as a bit of a reluctant leader, would you not say? I mean he goes from just being a sort of part of the part of the guild, um doing a job, and he's got to get Grogu slash baby Yoda and deliver him to collect his money. That's that. That was always his job.

SPEAKER_04 3:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

But then he becomes this sort of what's the word? Like a breakout character, a breakaway character, because what he does is pretty extraordinary. Because Mandalorians are incredibly disciplined, they work as part of their guilds, they are the bounty hunter types, blah blah blah. And he completely breaks that. So he goes and rescues Grogu, he goes against that, and he becomes this icon, this quiet. I'm gonna call him a rebel. I don't know if we really call him a rebel, but he goes on to inspire others, do you not think? Which would make which is what makes him a leader.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

So remind me, remind me of his background. Give me his back, remind me who he is and who I yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Lord, uh well, he's he's a bounty hunter ultimately, isn't he? Much like Boba, like you know, Bobby Fett in the originals.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

Yeah, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Yeah, so like that. So he grew up on Mandalore without parents, I believe. Um and they grow up oh go on.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

No, no, go on, go on, carry on, sorry. You you yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I can't think of his biography off the top of my head. But he's just part of the he's a cog. He's a cog in the guild of bounty hunters, of Mandalorians.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

And then he separates himself from that when he rescues Baby Yoda.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

So is he not just a rebel then? Is he not just, does he I mean, you know, I don't know, but this is this is what I was thinking about. I was thinking, no, because I don't mean a rebel with a capital R. I don't mean like using that. I mean, is he not just I mean you say, you know, is he a does that make it because he breaks from the you know the the discipline of the guild? Does that does that mean does that's not why he's a leader? That's not why he's a leader.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Isn't that just yeah, it's a contributory trait, I would say, because then he goes on like in season two and season three and he gets sort of um he gets followers, so he's got uh what's she called Bokatan? Is that her name, I think? Yeah, the one he's played by Katie Sakov, yeah, um and the droid, I oh god, IG is it IG 11. I don't remember what it's the droids called. Yeah, so he and he gets a sort of group, yeah, a group of misfits. I think has he got a former Jedi in there, a former Imperial trooper? So he sort of collects the group in from Star Wars, yeah, but he goes and he leads them.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Okay, yeah, alright, okay, yeah, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

It's quiet. What I really like about Man, though, is that he is very much about being the quiet, reluctant leader. He's also a mentor to Grogu, and I think this is I mean, it's something we touched on, and I think something the Star Wars universe does fairly well.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

He what yeah, what I really like about him, which differs from the Jedi, is he is a really great mentor to Baby Yoda, and I think he exemplifies the fact that you don't have to be the same sort of person or have the same sort of knowledge as the person you're mentoring. Grogu's obviously force sensitive, right? Mando ain't got a clue about force, he doesn't even know what species Baby Yoda is, but he still mentors him, he still teaches him how to behave, he still has incredible patience with him, and Mando is actually inspired by samurai's in Japanese legend because they would go around with sort of young, like young kids who would follow them around and they would have the same sort of relationship with them. And just going back to the fact that Mando doesn't, like I say, Mando's not a Jedi, he doesn't understand the force, he puts Baby Yoda's development kind of bef you know at the forefront of various episodes. He takes him to Luke, he takes him to Ahsoka because he knows that they are force experts, you know, and then then spoiler alert, then he leaves him with Luke, which is just so sad. He knows that's what's best for him. But again, that's leadership qualities putting your followers sort of before needs before your own, because he would have loved to just fly around with baby Oda. Would you not you still disagree?

SPEAKER_00 8:16

I don't know. I'm still I'm I I see it. I I see I see I definitely see, yeah, in what you're describing the qualities in of of him, uh the leadership qualities in him. I absolutely see that. Um you know and you're right, a mentoring, it's really interesting. I just I listened to uh I'm trying to think what I listened to. I listened to another podcast recently, uh and they were talking about um samurai in Japan. Um in fact it was uh you know the rest is history podcast, we're doing a four-part role. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. And there was some chat in that about I'm trying to think actually if that was linked, but there was some and then I I was doing some reading about it, and somebody was talking about how samurai uh the history and culture and principles of uh samurai has had a massive influence on the stu uh Star Wars storytelling, yeah, yeah, yeah. Star Wars character definition. Um I hadn't put two and two together in that. They were actually talking about it in the context of Darth Veda. Um and and and to a to a lesser extent or to a wider extent in the context of the Jedi. Um but I hadn't really put two and two together that perhaps in the in the character definition of Mandalorian or and the wider Mandalorian guild, I hadn't really put two and two together that the samurai has has had such a big influence on that on that character definition, subtly perhaps, but I hadn't really worked, I didn't made that link until you just mentioned it. Now you're talking about it in those terms. I'm like, okay, I'm beginning to see, I'm beginning to see because you're right, mentoring is such a big theme anyway, in the Star Wars um universe is universe is a Star Wars piece, mentoring is such, and I think loyalty and trust building are a big, big part of that piece. And I can see that you know yeah, he kind of earns, I think, or he builds what you might call earned followership, so they align with him. People align with him because his because experience tells them he won't fail. He's not um he's not a vociferous vocal um speech making, yeah. You know, a glitzy, glamorous leader. He's not, oh my god, you know, look at me, it's incredible. You know, I think his relationships rev evolve from sort of transactional experiences to sort of more trusted partnerships. Um I you know, I I think you can see that with am I saying this right, with grief carga, I think is you know one of the relationships that you know you see quite a transactional piece. Becomes a long and I think and that's true. Yeah, you see, others are choosing to stand with him because he's proven and he's dependable. And so I think arguably his leadership doesn't grow out of his sense of self, but it grows out of others' sense of who he is.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Yes, yeah, I would agree, I would agree with that. I think yeah, and you see his leadership style develop over the seasons because he does go through quite a transformation from this lone wolf operator right through to kind of leading this, you know, group of misfits being a mentor. You know, they have a debate about whether he should be the leader of the Mandalorians, but ultimately it goes to Bo Katan, because I think it's her family, yeah, who uh originally the kind of I don't think they're the royal family, but are the ones who who led the Mandalores. Um I mean it's so you to you talk about his style in terms of he's not sort of vociferous and loud, something that really struck me, and I can't remember if we talked about it with Darth Vader or not, you obviously don't see Mando's face. So, what you're going off when you're following him, potentially you know, looking at admiring him, is his body language, his voice, actions, uh you know, and what he says, but uh but arguably he doesn't actually like we said, he's not one for big speeches or words, and that really struck me. And I I don't really know how to translate that because obviously in real life we don't wear helmets when we're leading.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Speak for yourself, speak for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Actually, see behind you, you've got you've got some American football helmets.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

When I need to have negotiations, I stick my bears helmet on.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Actually, I do I have a Mando helmet, it's not here, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Of course you do, of course you do. Oh dear me, you and all the 10-year-old boys. Uh-huh. Go on.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

That's your Christmas present not that long ago. But anyway, um, yeah, so I was trying to think what can we draw from that in kind of as leaders now that it's you know, our faces say a lot about leaders uh about how we respond and react. But actually, we should probably consider other things like body language, like the way we carry ourselves, the the tone of voice you use. He's very calm, he's calm in even when there's been like a shootout, his voice is still, I know it comes through the helmet, but he's not shrieking around. You know, he still commands authority. Yeah, go on, sorry, go on, go on.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

No, it's true, it's true, and and and you're right. We talk a lot about emotional intelligence on the podcast. I think we also talk a lot about emotions, and you know, your face, your facial expressions are, you know, that number one source of uh emotional recognition. And I think you know, arguably, yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting sort of um interesting sort of juxtaposition in terms of the the helmet acts as a literal barrier, you know, it removes all facial expressions, um, so therefore takes the heat out of emotional exchanges. It almost takes the humanity out uh pardon the punk, because not everyone he he communicates with is a human, but it takes that it takes the heat out of the exchange that he ha the exchanges he has with people. Well, I suppose on one hand it removes that connection, it removes the connection you have with somebody, but actually it also has the has the kind of the the the effect of sort of um yeah taking the sting out of out of uh what could be highly charged communications, highly charged you know, highly sort of contentious uh engagements with people because we know people react, people react, and when people react, yes, they react to what you say, but they also react to how you sound and they also are react to how you look. Um so I think that's an interesting one. It's it's a it has the effect of narrowing, he has quite a narrow communication style as a result. Uh he can only communicate through or or well or not, let me rephrase that. He primarily communicates through action. Because he has quite how he speaks is quite short, sharp, um functional exchanges. He's no, you know, there's no there's no monologue, there's no diatribe with him ever. It's always a really succinct um but I think then what we see is which is totally fine in those kind of in those moments of that require action and immediate response. Cool. Excellent, brilliant. When it then comes to more complex uh engagements, more complex negotiations, uh conversations, I think that's where he is less effective. I think that's where this physical barrier of the helmet really comes into play. I mean we only ever see him, do we not? We only ever see him with his helmet off once, is it? The end of season the end of season two. Um it's the only time you ever sort of see I can't I don't think you can say emotional openness. Because just because he's got a helmet on doesn't mean he's not emotionally open. But it's the one of the it's the only time you ever see him with the helmet off and you see a kind of a different a different aspect of of who he is, a different angle of who he is.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

And I think as well, because oh god, no, well I was just gonna say, so I suppose the real I suppose now going back to your piece about you know why I'm child why you know I uh they say actions speak louder than words, and actually ac in in his case, actions are his are how people he's building confidence in people who want to follow him, who want to be led by him. He's not seeking to be a leader, he hasn't sought out leadership, but his actions and he has de he demonstrates trust, he demonstrates credibility, dependability, uh, it generates loyalty, um and and uh yeah, so I can see why people uh want to follow him. It's interesting though, as I'm saying that I'm thinking just wanting to follow someone doesn't necessarily mean that they're a leader, though. Being followed doesn't mean that you're a leader.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Well, I was gonna ask when we were talking about uh leadership qualities in Mando, I was thinking what what is it that makes someone a leader? Because presumably you could have leadership qualities, but that doesn't make you a leader. Yeah, no, essentially vice versa as well. You could you could be put in a position of leadership, but you could not have any no, no, exactly. It's just the the position you're put in is you have follow because he is reluctant to lead.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

He is reluctant to lead, you know. He he repeatedly he I think you see him, he repeatedly, repeatedly defers uh you know, um uh leadership decisions, I think. Even when he's holding the dark saber, you know, he doesn't step into what that represents. He doesn't do that, he doesn't want to do that, he's not interested in doing that. Um people like uh Bo Khatan, they are more comfortable with political leadership, they're more comfortable with symbolic lead symb symbolic leadership. He is really focused always on the immediacy of the task in front of him, and I think what you see in group settings he lets others frame strategy. He he executes, he will lead in execution of the strategy, but he's not a he's uh he's not the he's n he's really the individual who's setting uh the agenda and I think that sets a real seal in for him in terms of how his leadership can uh can develop because he kind of has created his own uh perhaps uh subconsciously, he's created his own sort of parameters for what his leadership style is. It's fine, it's cool, because you can't.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

That's a good thing, yeah. Yeah, he's confident in what he's good at. So he obviously knows he he knows that he isn't good with big speeches, for example. He doesn't overexplain what he's doing, he doesn't he never dominates you know situations, and I think by doing that he creates space for others to feel comfortable to step up in what they're good with, which actually is paradoxically makes him in a way more central.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yes, yes, I get that. Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

I think also not Tony Stark, like to contrast, you know, Tony Stark is kind of the opposite in a way. Loud, we'll do speeches, um, we'll dominate.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah, whip you up into a yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I I see that completely. I see that completely. And I think and I think he's calm, that that sense of that sense of calmness, which you want in a leader, you want calm, you want clarity when you're in a chaotic situation, and is always the case in all of the people that we talk about, there's invariably chaotic situations, the characters that we we talk about. I think his quiet competence, uh, you know, uh, you know, i it steadies situations, it it keeps things manageable, it keeps things uh it stops it stops you you know being overwhelmed. I think if you think about um uh the mudhorn fight in chapter two, he's totally outmatched. His plan completely fails, and yet he continues to adapt to the immediate sort of step-by-step rather than just collapsing under pressure. Um, yeah, you see it again in season two, uh, in The Believer in season two, you know, infiltration of the Imperial refinery that shows him working under a different kind of um pressure, and actually, he does remove his helmet in the believer, and that breaks his code, but that makes sure that he remains and even though he's breaking his code, he's still remaining composed enough to complete the mission. And I think that kind of being composed, that calmness, that um I you know, again, I think those are yes, leadership characteristics that make people want to follow you. Um that lack of theatric he's not theatrical, that lack of theatrics is really, really important to his his character and to whereas, yeah, talk like someone someone like Tony Stark, theatrics are absolutely central to your trust in Stork Tony Stark. If he wasn't, you'd be like, what? Do I believe this guy? He's so over the top, he's so blatantly self-confident, cockedly so, that you um that you believe him, you trust him. I think if the if the man if the if Mandalorian, if he was if he was demonstrating this, you know, this gung ho cowboy attitude, uh you you just wouldn't people wouldn't want to follow him. They wouldn't want to follow him.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

No, no, definitely not. I mean, because Tony Stark is also incredibly smart, like he's an engineer, but that's almost a secondary thought. The first thought is, oh, it's Tony, he's loud, he's gonna be the loudest person in the room, he's gonna do a um riling speech, but you don't actually think about his expertise. Whereas with Mando, I suppose because when we came into this, you said you wanted me to explain Mando's leadership because you see all the other aspects of him.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, it does make sense.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

I think part of all of it as well is he really empowers people, but he doesn't do it by I don't know, by sort of, I suppose, by swooping in and saying, I'm gonna empower you. He makes people capable. There's that episode, I think it's Sanctuary, where he trains the villagers. Um, I can't remember what the village is called now, but he goes in and he doesn't go in to sort of save everyone, he doesn't go in to fight the battle on their behalf, he makes them capable. Yeah, and that's surely the act of a true leader, is to give give people the tools so that they can do whatever it is themselves under your sort of guidance, but you're not there to fight the battle on their behalf, which I think some leaders do. They sometimes absorb everything on behalf of their team, rightly or wrongly, and for whatever reason, you know, it might be done sort of because they want to protect their team. But what Mando's doing is he knows that he's equipping them for the long term.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah. Empowering people. We talk a lot about empowering. What does it mean to empower people? Well, you've got to give them the skills, the confidence, uh, the capacity, the space, the time, the resource. You've got to give them you, yeah. You gotta give them space to fail. It's interesting. I had a I've been having a meeting this week about failure. Um, sorry, I've no, I've been having meetings this week and I've been talking about failure, leadership development, and I've been saying you've got to give people space to fail. Um, I think we saw, yeah, you know, uh, and part of that, part of that space to to fail is to then be adaptive to in your response, is to learn from that failure. And I think one of the things that he we do see in his sort of journey, his character arc, his journey arc, is that his leadership evolves. He he is adaptive, he is an adaptive learner, he goes from rigid doctrine to interpreted values. Because I think if you you know early on, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, his mantra, this is the way, that is absolute. It's absolute, this is the way. He doesn't remove his helmet, he never questions the creed. Um he's quite and actually that's quite the way through, actually. Um quite a long way. He's quite rigid, and and that reluctant that um sorry, that um over reliance on doctrine is it really limits his effectiveness. But then we start to see the first cracks when I G11 um saves him, that challenges his deep bias against droids, and you begin to see those first cracks of light emerging in actually, and he start you can even behind the mask, you can see processing, you can see the processing in his body language, and actually then you know that first major shift comes when in in The Believer in season two when he removes he voluntarily removes his helmet, he chooses to overcome the rule, um sorry, he chooses outcome rather over the rule, uh, and then by the time he gets to interact with you know Bo Katan and her faction, uh, and he realizes his version of Mandalorian identity isn't universal. Um, and then you're really starting to see him then that forces him to reinterpret what it means to belong, and I think that then um is when you start you you've seen his trajectory from you know the movement from compliance to judgment, and actually leadership compliance isn't leadership, compliance is leadership, sorry, compliance is compliance, judgment is leadership, um, accountability based on that judgment is leadership, and so he stops asking, you know, what are the rules? You stop saying this is the way, and then he starts asking, well, what's the right way to do things in this situation? And I think you do see that adaptive learning, and a lot of that is based around accepting that failure is part of leadership, and so often we don't see that the rigidity to success, the sorry, the the rigid the rigid sort of um uh what's the word uh holding on to uh success at all costs. That's not leadership either. That's that's in fact that's that's just inflexibility. That's that's the computer. Unrealistic as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Yeah. So I it's yeah. Yeah. One of my one of my favorite lines ever that I use in most aspects of life is from I think it's from Dark Knight or Batman Begins, but um, I think, God, who is it? Is it Alfred? One of them says to a young Bruce Wayne, you know, Batman our our favourite leader ever, why do we fall, Bruce? Yeah, and it's so we can learn to pick ourselves back up, which I think is a great mantra to have, because it's like, well, you'll fall, you'll fail, but actually, it's how you recover from that. That is what it is, not the that's the real thing, not the failure itself.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah, leadership is all about learning, it's all about learning, it's not about telling people what to do, it's all about learning. You learn, but it's creating the circumstances. It goes back to the point you were making, it's creating the circumstances where the your team, the people around you, they learn as well. Um that's all it is, and so I I okay, okay, you're starting to win me over. You're starting to win me over. Uh I can see that he has certain he definitely has, you know, yeah, leadership. Yeah, more than leadership qualities. I'm I'm beginning to see that he's he's a quiet leader.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Yeah. And I think we underestimate the quiet ones sometimes. Um shout and dominate. But actually it's the quiet ones we should listen to, the ones who only speak when it's relevant, like Mando.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

I'm sorry, I'm just being silent because I'm only speaking when it's relevant.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Just have 40 minutes of silence for our episodes.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Just have a so you can outphy each other on not saying the next words. Yeah, okay. So we're saying um he's okay, so we're saying he's calm uh calm execution in chaotic environments. He's adaptive, he's a learner, he empowers people. He bit he through his action, he creates loyalty um and builds trust. Uh you know, he has clarity of purpose under pressure. We see that time and time and time again, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Um he's actually quite values-driven as well, which sort of goes back to what you were saying about questioning the rules of mandalore, and I think we see it more and more, particularly with his relationship with Grogu, that it's about values, not the rule.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Yes, and that's interesting, isn't it? Because uh arguably on the face of it, you he seems quite naive. Um you know, his what you could argue, you know, you know, his strict adherence um to you know to to the creed is uh you know you could argue it seems quite naive, but then I guess what I think it does is it's I think it demonstrates that if you're not exposed to other ways of thinking, of of of doing, of of perspectives, of backgrounds, of um ways of being. Well if you're not exposed to that and you don't have opportunities to first of all, if you're not exposed to it, how are you ever going to develop? So, you know, you you can but I think often you see people who are exposed to it and then refuse to re respond to it. Um they're so sort of um they're so steadfast in their beliefs, and their values are so um rigid that they don't evolve. And again, leadership is all about evolution, and and you're right, I think his values he is extr he is values driven, but I think he has a maturity of character that that he that shows when his because his his values evolve as he evolves, as his experiences, as he's exposed to new ways of thinking, of doing, of being, you see him and his va and and his values evolve. And again, it it doesn't it doesn't and if anything, it reinforces his integrity and it reinforces, I would argue, it reinforces his sense of self.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Yeah, I was gonna say it's kind of ironic because he starts off operating individually, as the Mandalorians do, as the lone wolf. Actually, as he meets more people, builds a team slowly and somewhat over time, he actually becomes more of an individual in a way. So he finds his place more. The more he's surrounded by different sorts of people and species and gets different exposure to things, he develops his own individual style, which I think is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah, yeah. I think part of his style is he's never paralyzed by uncertainty. No, he's never paralyzed by uncertainty. Once he decides once he decides what matters, he moves, he gets on with it. Now the tension, the interesting tension in that is that his clarity isn't always right at first, but his clarity is always strong. And and and that link and that links back to this piece about adaptive learning, because actually, you know, and and I I guess thinking about his action and how that embeds a sense of trust and credibility and uh in him, then I guess the fact that he has the you know, he has conviction in his decision making, but also in in he also demonstrates a willingness to be adaptive in in that decision making. And actually, when things are not playing out, changes. We change course, change course of action. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

So all right, you've convinced me, you've convinced me he is a leader. Okay, and he and he is uh but he he he has a narrow communication style. He has a reluctance to lead. That doesn't make him a bad leader, just because you're reluctant to lead doesn't make you a bad leader. But he has, you know, he can be reactive rather than strategic a lot of the time, but again, not every leader is. He recognises that, I think, as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not every leader is strategic, absolutely, you know. Uh you don't need to be, you don't need to be um you can still be a superb tactician. Um and if you let strategy emerge around you rather than from you, that's that's still that's still a really, really good, you know, good way of being, you know. But he's also I think he's he's yeah, I think okay, his willingness to be his clarity of purpose, his accountability and ownership, his calm demeanour in in chaotic circumstances, and his willingness to adapt and and learn I think yeah, out they outstrip, they outweigh the w the the character the leadership flaws in him. So okay, go on. I alright, you've won me over, you've won me over. Alright. How does he score? How does he score on our leadership uh spectrum? Which bear in mind now, it is now four months since we last did this, so I'm struggling to remember where anybody is on our leadership spectrum.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

So didn't we give someone a zero or a one? Oh I mean, I was Anakin.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Oh, I think it might have been no, I d I don't think it was.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Um Ned Stark?

SPEAKER_00 37:12

I can't remember. We'll have to go back.

SPEAKER_03 37:15

They were both quite low. Give him a seven, eight, seven, seven, uh. I would I would be I would follow him.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Um, I'd go with that. I'd go with six or seven, yeah. Puts him puts him, I'd put him on the upper upper quartile, and or maybe middle quartile that is actually, isn't it? Six or seven, but yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Yeah, if we've got Wonder Woman, I think who's the top? Is it Wonder Woman and Princess Leia and Blackwomen? All the women at the team.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

He's not yeah, well exactly. He's not he's not he's not in he's not in Princess Leia's uh league. He's definitely not in Princess League.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

No, gosh, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

But neither is he but neither is he in Batman's league either.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

And I because there's the film, the Mandalorian and Grogu film, is coming out this summer. So I don't think he's done in terms of his leadership. You know, I think it's this he's a slow burn in terms of his style. So I wonder if the film comes out, we redid this, whether that would change. I mean, it might not change, but I I think he's been such a slow burn over three seasons.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Three seasons, yeah, yeah, three, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

Um, because he has gone through quite the transformation, so yeah. Oh, it's yeah, mid mid-tier. Now, would he survive the multi the multiverse test? Would he survive in the Avengers?

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Uh uh Yeah, he'd survive. Would he thrive?

SPEAKER_03 38:53

Um, actually, I reckon he'd thrive in Guardians of the Galaxy. Yes, in the Guardians, I reckon he'd do really well there.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah, but then that's yeah, yeah, okay. He'd survive there, would he survive more than in the Avengers? Yes, wouldn't he? Yeah, definitely. I actually think he'd survive on the wall.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

I think he'd be really good on the wall, uh up in uh up in uh West Ross. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Yeah, yeah, around there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

I think he'd be really strong.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

He's got that kind of Jon Snow vibe going on, hasn't he? You know?

SPEAKER_03 39:34

Yeah, he sort of attracts people, people follow him, and he's like Didn't want them originally.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Have we got Jon Snow on the list? Are we doing Jon Snow?

SPEAKER_03 39:45

We should do.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

We should do, should we?

SPEAKER_03 39:48

We should he must he's probably on the list of 700. It's been growing over the last few months. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, um would he go Star Trek Star Trek Star Trek No He wouldn't survive in the Federation, he could probably be on some random planet doing his own thing, but he would not.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

He'd be vilified in Star Trek on the bridge. Yeah, yeah. Well, he would never really pop out of being a bounty hunter. That would be it, he would just be a bounty hunter, that'd be it.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

Yeah, you can't, yeah, yeah. Um Justice League Avengers, these team, these team ones, I don't think he would say when there's structure. I mean, there's vaguely more structure to Avengers in Justice League than there is Guardians, but I don't think if he was thrust into a team, I don't think he'd do very well.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

What about in the boys?

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Oh, actually, he'd probably do alright in the boys. With the boys, not with the seven, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Uh yeah, yeah, with the boys kind of reminds me of um oh which is the one in the seven who doesn't say anything.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Um Black Moir. Yeah, it's a bit like why should you actually can't see Black Moir's face? It's a good comparison, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

So I actually can see him in the seven and in the boys. I think he'd be quite good. I think he'd be quite good at both of those.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Okay, so alright, okay, you convinced me. All right, now I'll I should look forward to when are we gonna see when is that film out? When is that film out?

SPEAKER_03 41:25

I think it's the summer. It's got um Sigoni Rebra in.

unknown 41:28

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Does it? Yeah, as the trailer's out.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

The trailer's out.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

We'll be released. As we're talking, I'm just gonna find it so that uh any listener who's thinking, yeah, when is that out? Uh oh, May 26th. Oh, next month. All right, okay. It's out. It's out like almost almost next month. It could be depending when you're listening to this. It could have been yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

It could have been yesterday's release, but yeah, or tomorrow, like or tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

It depends, yeah. It could be, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

May 20 yeah, May well, May 26th in well, presumably it's a global release, date, is it? It's May 26th in the US.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

May 22nd. Although we have we have global we do have a global following. So hi to our US fans, if that is, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

So it's May 22nd global release. Okay, so uh let's now everybody nerd out and listen to this podcast again and then walk into the cinema and go see it and then uh and then yeah, and then tell us what you think. Tell us what we think. Now, before we wrap up, tell me about this Substack thing we've got going on. Uh, because I have been swamped by at least three emails from Substack just this morning telling me that there's a a leadership multiverse newsletter on Substack. Tell me about it. What's going on?

SPEAKER_03 42:55

There is indeed. Well, we are gonna be I say we, really, I need to tell you, tell you about it.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

When I say tell me what's going on, I mean tell me what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Well, we are gonna be having a monthly newsletter. Um it's not gonna be pages and pages long, so no one needs to worry. Whereas a short article talking about something to do with leadership, relating it back to a character. Um, in the first month's case, we talk a little bit about Jean-Luc Picard and the power of language and culture.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Of course we do, of course. We couldn't not do Jean-Luc, could we, Oves? Uh uh.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Um and then there's a bit about what I am watching, relating that back to leadership, and I am watching the boys because it's in its final season now. Have you been watching it?

SPEAKER_00 43:47

See episodes are out? See no no, not yet, because I have a real problem with with waked in a week, uh so I for the new episode. So I'm just waiting until it's all done. They're all out, okay, and then I'll watch it in Like a day. Um nice in a healthy way. Yes. Sunshine couldn't. Absolutely. Okay, so how do I get onto this? How do I get onto this substack? Um there's an app, isn't it? Substack app.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Yeah, app, uh, website. Just type in leadership multiverse substack, or you can go on our LinkedIn page or our Instagram, which is just the Leadership Multiverse, and there will be links there. And all that note, follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn and TikTok. But I apologize, I have no idea how to use TikTok, so please, I'm sorry. I sound like a boomer. I'm so sorry, everyone, please.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

You were gonna say please follow us on TikTok. You were gonna say you sound like a Gen X, is what you were gonna say, and then you realised you've been insulting me.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

So you were like, oh boomers, yeah, I'll talk about boomers instead. Okay, I didn't I don't I don't think I remembered we were on TikTok. All right, cool, excellent.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

We're on it, yeah. So give us a follow, everyone, please.

unknown 45:05

Who will we?

SPEAKER_03 45:06

And our next episode.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yeah, who are we talking about next? Oh, I can't, yeah. Who are we doing next?

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Well, I think this is one of yours, Optimus Prime.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Oh, yeah, this is gonna be awesome. Oh, Optimus Prime.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

I'm gonna be out of my depth with this one. I do I have seen Transformers, but um, I've not I I'm gonna have to re-watch some of them because I'm particularly familiar with I would like you to go old school.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Um, between now and next week, I would like you to watch all of the 1980s uh cartoons that I grew up on. Uh I want you to watch all of those. Forget the movies. Forget the movies. The real real hardcore stuff is in the the 80s cartoons, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

I've seen the Bumblebee film.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Okay, you might need to do a bit more research. Might need to do a bit more research. Uh cool, excellent. I'm looking forward to that. Brilliant, fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah, it'd be a good one. Yeah. Awesome. Cool. Do you want to take us out? That is in the episode.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Do you know what? I would, except I can't remember the script. So you take us out.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

Um if you're on the oh, if you're in the back cave or the boardroom, listen to us.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Oh, we gotta we gotta rewrite this script. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

I'll I'll I'll uh yeah, I'll think of I'll think of some others, don't you worry.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yeah, good ending. All right. See you next week.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Thanks. Next week.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Bye.