Optimus Prime

What can a giant transforming robot teach us about leadership? Quite a lot, it turns out. In this episode, we take on Optimus Prime as a leadership case study, exploring moral conviction, burdened leadership, executive isolation, succession blind spots, and whether principled leaders can become too rigid for the worlds they lead. From 1980s Cold War symbolism to modern questions of adaptability and team culture, Ellen and Andrew ask whether Optimus is the heroic leader we remember, or a more flawed commander than nostalgia admits. As ever, expect serious leadership analysis, geeky detours, and the occasional truck-sized heresy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Hello, how are you this week?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Oh, I am good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Good, good. Back in the studio, loving that we're back recording. Um, doing so I've got do you know this uh we've got so much lined up. I there's just not enough hours in the day to to to to rewatch all of this material to remind myself.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

This one for me, I am in new territory because I I did not appreciate how much Transformers stuff there is and how little I paid attention to the films when I'd watched them over the years.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

So, did you think that Transformers was just like a couple of uh a couple of movies from the early 2010s? Is that what you thought Transformers was?

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I knew I knew it was a cartoon, but I didn't appreciate the debt. And actually how much more helpful the cartoon was for this than films. I started re-watching, didn't I? I know, I know, and I did after watching half of the first Transformers film, and I was like, okay, Optimus Prime has been in this for 20 seconds because he's not in it, or the first one he is not in it until much later.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

No hardly, and even then I and that movie, I think, excuse me, I think that movie assumes a lot of viewer knowledge. I think it assumes a lot of it it it doesn't really do any it yeah, it doesn't do any justice to any of the backstory around uh around why the Autobots are um even on Earth. It it does assume a lot of prior knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Yeah, I watched the first I watched several of the first few episodes of the cartoon, which was so educational. My god, I was fascinated. I get why U80s kids loved it.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I really it's all we had.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I'm so late to the party, but that that actually gave me much more quick story and understanding of the rivalry, why they're here, what happened four million years ago, why oil is so precious to them. It was yeah, it was very helpful watching the cartoons.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Oh god, see, this is it. Now you've got a depth of knowledge that goes beyond any reasonable persons, right? Now you're getting into like I knew you would do this. I knew you would do this, I knew you would. Okay, so Optimus Prime. Okay. I think it's worth I think it is worth just sort of mapping out a bit of the the kind of the core origin stories of uh Optimus Prime and the and the Autobots because because I think maybe some listeners, some listeners may not have may not be 80s kids like me, and may not have like and may not be fully kind of up to speed and may be thinking that or maybe their knowledge of and experience of of Transformers only sort of kicks off with those those those movies. When were those movies? When were those movies first?

SPEAKER_02 3:50

The first one was 2007.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, first one.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Like I didn't I thought they were 2010s, but I agree because I went into it thinking they are robot cars from outer space. That was the extent of my knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Oh my god. It's like it's like a dagger to it.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Boil it down.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

It's like an oil change to my heart, honestly, God. I thought they were a bunch of cars from outer space.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Robot cars. I knew they transformed, like it's in the name, I knew they transformed, but yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

So let's let's do some backstory. Let's do some backstory, right? For the for I was gonna say for the listener's benefit, but it's really it's as much for yours as it is. So so before he's optimus prime, before he is Optimus Prime, and and we know who we're talking about here now, big blue and blue and uh red truck, right? That's what we're talking about, Optimus Prime. Thank you, thank you very much. Okay, before he's Optimus Prime, he's Orion Pack. This is the common canon. Okay, I'm gonna this is the call because there's there's there's like variations in um there's variations depending on the cartoons and and then it's that newest food. There's that newest uh cartoons just come out as well. So there's some variations, but the common canon of his sort of his trajectory, this is kind of what is generally accepted. So he's before he's Optimus Prime, he's Orion Pax. He's well, depending on the version you're looking at, he's either a dock worker, an archivist, or a data clerk uh on the planet Cybertron. That is so random, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 5:29

In the robot city on the planet, on the robot planet.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

This robot planet of Cybertron. He's as Orion Pax, he's curious, he's thoughtful, he's idealistic rather than any sort of um semblance of powerful leadership or or you know, he's more interested in knowledge and fairness than in status, than in many tellings. He's a Ryan uh is defined early by a belief in cooperation and order. He is in no way is it suggested that he is a warrior, and I think that is I think that is significant when we see how the character evolves and how his leadership evolves. Um he encounters Megatron before the war escalates. Uh Megatron, we kind of see him as a a revolutionary figure arguing against a rigid caste system, and Orion initially respects or you know, or is intrigued by Megatron. And I think what's really important again, this relationship between Orion and Megatron is important because it reframes laterally, then it refrain it frames the central conflict between the Autobots and the uh Decepticons as a as sort of as a response between oh as as two responses to injustice. Megatron chooses domination, Orion chooses principled reform. So in central in several versions, um notably you know the aligned the aligned sort of continuity and early lore around uh Orion Pax or you know Optimus Prime. Orion is critically injured during a conflict with Megatron. He's saved, he is rebuilt by Alpha Tryon or similar elder figure, and this is the moment that Orion Pax transforms and becomes Optimus Prime. And and and this change isn't just physical, it is moral and it is symbolic, and I think this is that kind of that key um that is this that is the key sort of gateway into his his his um his matrix of leadership for want of a better phrase. So Optimus is chosen to carry the matrix of leadership, which is a physical artifact, but more importantly, it is a symbol of wisdom, continuity, and responsibility, and it represents the accumulated guidance of the previous leaders. Um in the Transformers of the movie, this is made explicit when leadership is passed on through the matrix. So he is selected, he is not self-appointed, so he is not a you know an a na well he is not he is a natural leader, but he isn't it his his evolution doesn't ha as as as the chosen he is the chosen leader, not the he doesn't evolve into the leader uh it isn't conferred. Yes, yes, it isn't conferred simply because of character. So then in terms then of the rise of the Autobots, as war erupts on Cybertron, Optimus becomes the leader of the Autobots, which is a resistance force. He positions them not as conquerors, but as defenders of freedom, and his leadership style is set early on, which is to protect life, to resist tyranny, and to accept personal cost. Cybertron becomes uninhabitable due to prolonged war. Optimus leads the Autobots away in search of resources for survival, and they eventually arrive on Earth, uh, in many versions famously via the Ark. And from this point on the conflict between the Autobots and the Decepticons becomes interplanetary, and humans become part of the moral equation. That is how we get to in various forms, we get to our you know our our introduction to Optimus Prime on the screen. Did you know any of that? I presume you knew all of that actually.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

I knew the kind of over overarching, I knew about the rivalry. No, but the I I didn't know about his kind of humble beginnings and archiv what do you say is an archival?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Archivist, data clerk, archivist, or or or dock worker, and let's be honest office manager. Yeah, all all all robot planets need their archivists and data clerks, just like the rest of us do. So you know it makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot. It's humble beginnings.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

So yeah. And I think that is important, and thank you, because I think that actually really helps set the scene and understand his leadership style more. Because as I said earlier, he's not just some robot truck car thing, actually, he's much more complex than that. And the rivalry goes deeper between him and Megatron.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah, absolutely it does. And I think you know, I've been reflecting a lot, you know, on uh because obviously, you know, right, Optimus Prime, you do think, you do think. I mean, you know, my one of my oh, I remember ooh, Christmas 1985, getting oh, it was just incredible, getting this Optimus Prime Transformer for Christmas, and it and it was just incredible. And I and of course, it's as is always as with my Star Wars figures. I look back now and think if I just kept it in the box, it would now be worth tens of pounds. Um, but I didn't, and I played it to death, you know, and I loved it, and it you know, and it was just like on the on the on the face of it, you think, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you said, right? Old joke and a site, you think, yeah, it's about a bunch of a bunch of cars from space, bunch of trucks from space, and there's not much depth to it other than they're having a bit of a bit of a fight with some other robots. But my god, actually, when you get into the the the depth of leadership character in Optimus Prime, he's actually he's far more complex than the on that he first appears. Because he first appears, he's pretty one-dimensional. I think if you just look at him with face of value, he's pretty one-dimensional. But subsequently, when you get into him, he is so layered, it's mad, it's just bonkers how layered he is.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

When you look at his decision making as well, I'm just I'm thinking more of in the films now. I mean, he he is so uh moral and values-driven, and he he puts saving human lives up there and saving the Autobots as well. And I was kind of going through it, are they sentient? Because he treats like the Autobots like they're sentient. But are they? I mean they're robots, right? But they feel is that correct?

unknown 12:42

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

They are sentient, aren't they? And that's probably captured most obviously in Bumblebee. Oh, oh more than more than the extent of mine is such a yes, which when I play which when I was watching Bumblebee, he was little Volkswagen, a little Volkswagen Beetle, not some crazy souped-up Ford Mustang. But um, but yeah, I think you know they are. Absolutely they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Um and I think and I it's interesting because I when I say that he's one-dimensional, I actually think that moral compass is the piece that on the surface makes him feel and look one-dimensional. Because actually he seems so values-driven, he almost has a piety about him. You look at him, you go, Oh, come on, fella, have a sense of realism, right? You know, it's all it feels on the surface. He's quite he's as black and white as Megatron is, you know, uh when you because it's it's good versus evil. Bad, you know, good versus bad, good versus evil, you know, it's it's um it's quite sharply drawn, um and and it's got quite a an easy and obvious moral frame in. And actually, if you look at and you think you know, when I first when I reflect back on particularly in the movies from the yeah, 2007 and then the the follow-on movies, um particularly the ones with oh, who's that? What's the what's the lad who's the boeuf? Yeah, him, yeah, those ones be, yeah. Yeah, because Latley, isn't Mark um uh Warburg. Warberg. He's in them, isn't he, then Latley. But so those ones with um LeBoo. What's he called?

SPEAKER_02 14:36

She she sheer labour.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Shea LeBeuf. He fell from Grace, didn't he? As a complete decide, he fell from Grace in Hollywood circles, didn't he? He's like he's he's like toxic these days. He doesn't no one goes near him, apparently. Um because he's really hard to work with. But that's what happens when you work with Optimus Prime. That's the that's what happens when you you know you become really, you know, black and white. But actually, forced to own a bumblebee car.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Indeed. I think because what what I thought was oh his moral clarity almost feels like moral rigidity. Um he operates from a fixed moral code. It's quite narrow, uh it narrows his room for manoeuvre. And um and I and on the face of it, you think, well actually it it limits your options, it limits your decision making, and is he therefore is he flexible, adaptable, is or is he just black and white? And that's that was that was my kind of start in that was my kind of start in point on him, and and of course then you're gonna get into it, and he is much more complex than that.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

He is, but I think that's a good point because with the morals, and I think we've touched on that with other movies like Captain America, I'm just thinking it's probably the main ones. Um and whilst I think Optimus Prime is moral and it stands him in good stead, it does create situations where he is maybe too trusting or too forgiving. So I'm thinking of I think it's in Transformers, Darker the Moon with uh Sentinel Prime. Now, Sentinel Prime used to be leader of the Autobots, yes, and then he uh by the way, I'm I'm sorry to all the 80s kids out there if I'm not on Canon or I am on Canon, but when he goes to the other side and he teams up with Megatron, but then they kind of they all at the end they have a big fight, and then Sentinel Prime, spoiler alert, is actually killed by Uptum's Prime, I think. But he goes into it with the benefit, it gives him the benefit of the doubt, and I think he does that on several occasions, and he spares um the Decepticons at various points throughout the cartoon. So I was watching one of them last night where there is a robot dog who's a Decepticon, I can't remember what he's called. Ravage, Ravage. They and they keep him alive and they talk, they reveal various big secrets in front of Ravage, and then they they drop the keys and Ravage gets out. And it's like you could have done more to stop that. You didn't have to keep him alive. Like, you know, the Decepticons are quite brutal, and whilst Bottom of the Prime doesn't have to be as brutal, he's very forgiving, he's very lax when he knows perfectly well what the Decepticons are capable of. And I think that possibly comes from being too moral and too forgiving, and assuming everyone is like you, which I think we've talked about before, which sometimes can be leaders can sometimes assume, not rightly or wrongly, that everyone has got the same moral compass as them and everyone should be as forgiving.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Well, yeah, because one of the challenges of leadership is that leadership is uh we when we we've we say this a lot, you know, leadership is lonely. And and w when it's lonely, you often end up in an echo chamber of one. You know, and so you know uh you know, and so uh it's difficult then to maintain perspective and and to challenge your to challenge your perspective. And one of the character one of the strengths of character is a willingness to challenge either to to challenge your own perspective or to be challenged. I mean it's interesting, I think, you know, that the Captain America parallel is the obvious one, you know, uh two moral leaders. Do you think though that which of them is more willing to challenge the system that he serves? Because to begin with, neither of them are. Neither of them are. They both come out quite their moral rigidity is almost you know is is exactly what Tony Stark pushes back against with um with um and actually what with with Captain America and what Bumblebee pushes back against um uh against um Optimus Prime as well at certain points is that actually his moral rigidity is um is prohibitive sometimes for them actually performing uh you know to the to the to to their optimum uh capacity. But which do you think of the two of them, Optimus Prime or Captain America, which one is more willing to challenge the system?

SPEAKER_02 19:33

I'm wondering whether Cap is. Whilst I think he Optimus Prime I think he inspires confidence, here the Autobots listen to him. I don't know if they are strong enough to challenge him when there might be a situation uh where they don't agree with. I know you talked a bit about Bumblebee, but I'm just I'm just thinking of the Autobots while you don't particularly want a Tony Stark type all the time to have that in your ear, surely will make you question things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

There is not one of them in the um if you yeah, if you're thinking about Transformers through to Transformers the Last Night, um there isn't as they're not the Avengers, there isn't there isn't strength of character, leadership character in that in that group of autobots. They they are all followers. And I think they are and and indeed what's interesting, because you know last week when we recorded we were talking about um Mando and we were talking about you know his his um almost you know religious following of the creed uh to begin with. I think we see that throughout throughout the Transformers narrative, there is almost a religious there's almost a religion around Optimus Prime for his followers.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah, I would fully agree with that, and I think also because Optimus Prime has got say one main opponent, I mean it's Megatron. I know kind of the humans hunt the autobots in various points in the film, but Megatron knows him, so he's not actually Optimus Prime doesn't use that to his advantage in terms of he doesn't really do sneak attacks. Megatron is quite predictable to Megatron, I think, in terms of his moral rigidity because he's predictable.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yes, and predictability whilst the strength in leadership, because they when we've said this before, you don't want your leaders to be oh I mean good, I mean imagine being a Megatron team. Oh my god, it would be I mean to a degree sobs. Yeah, you know my God. But um yeah you want yeah you don't want you don't want leaders um to be so unpredictable that you as a team member don't know if you want you know to be still on shifting sands because that makes your whole experience of their leadership unpredictable unnerving uh uncertain uh and and and and and invariably it means that you you will not perform as a team. However, yeah I think um yeah I think I think Optimus is prime his Optimus Prime's moral rigidity makes him I I don't think he is I don't think he's a particularly adaptable leader. I don't think he is a particularly um what do I mean by that? I mean he yeah they go into battle they create yeah he's he's strategic but I don't see him being particularly responsive to circ to him to the immediacy of circumstances which you again which you do see through Bumblebee Yeah that's true. I mean I suppose yeah if we think of it in real world times you know leaders who are if they're too principled and they don't have that flexibility they're gonna be outmaneuvered by competitors who may be more aggressive want to do things differently I'm just trying to think of the parallels in yeah in the real world and I don't think he's a particularly emotionally intelligent leader he speaks with he speaks with authority but I don't think he's um I don't think he he absorbs risks and he shields um he shields his team and I and he carries loss personally but he never ever outsources the emotional burden and I don't think that's a healthy way for him to be for any leader um he he absorbs all of that and and I think that perpetuates this kind of executive isolation that um executive isolation you like that you like that just copyright under but yeah it perpetuates it it perpetuates structure it maintains um it maintains authority um it gives clarity I don't think any of the Autobots feel like they're on shifting sands at all they often express frustration because they feel like they're not able to be uh as adaptable in s to immediate circumstances as they need as they should be or need to be but I think a big part of him is that he a big part of or one of his character flaws is I don't think he's a particular he's highly intelligent he's highly perceptive of others but I don't think he's particularly self-aware no I'd agree on and I'd agree when you said he's not particularly emotionally intelligent I was thinking and he's not you're right he's not but he does feel or he feels too much which arguably isn't emotionally intelligent that's just yeah emotional he doesn't want others in his team to feel you know you when you shield people this is not and it usually it usually isn't by it isn't by design but it is a consequence of shield when you feel you need to shield people shield your team from circumstances you stop them from feeling and if you don't allow them to feel they don't develop if I'm not feeling something I'm not learning something if I'm not learning I'm not developing it's not and so actually constantly protecting being the paternal protector of your team is really unhealthy it's really long term I totally understand it and I don't criticize anybody for doing it and I don't criticize um Optimus Prime for doing it oh my god is the is I even is these even words that I'm saying I don't I don't know what to go I don't criticize you never thought you'd say oh my god when I was in school I never thought I'd be having these these conversations but but um actually you know we've spoken about this uh many times uh you know uh and again if we think about what when we've talked about mentoring as being a kind of big part of the Star Wars um uh experience of leadership there's no mentoring here there's no mentoring at all here he don't mentor anybody oh gosh and I was gonna say I was gonna push back a little bit when you said you think he's strategic I think he's quite operational so the autobox they they they function they all know what their roles are I don't think he is unclear about that when he gives he gives orders but he he doesn't he doesn't say I order you to do this you know he'll just sort of say okay we need to do this and this and this and and they all know so in that in that sense I think he's built a team that can run but in terms of strategy being agile being forward thinking looking at succession planning looking at mentoring I don't think he does those things you know he's created like you said I think patern paternalistic is a very it's a really really good word because there is a dependency on him as this singular leader when he's gone there's a bit of a vacuum yeah and I was just thinking about succession planning and I'm sure I'm sure it's probably somewhere at Transformers but you know is he moulding someone to succeed him or is he just too focused on protecting his team and doing what's right in the moment and not I know that I know the aim is to kind of get the Autobots back to Cybertron and to get Cybertron up and up and running but it's kind of the big he looks at the big picture the very very very very big picture and the very very very small picture he doesn't have range in between there was um I once did a leadership training course years and years and years ago and it said that if you look at the elastic band of leadership and you've got sort of small things on one side and big things on the other a good leader flips on the elastic band and they can move and they've got range and I don't think Optimus Prime has got that range. No I don't think he does uh I think on his elastic band I think his elastic band would snap quite quickly actually I think it would I think the jolting between yeah but I think what's interesting I think one of the things I was I started particularly Transformers and maybe because it was such a it it it was forefront of my childhood it was a big part of my childhood I was a massive fan of Transformers and then it kind of went away and as you know I'm a historian I love history I love understanding you know and we've spoken in the past about particularly in the Star Wars context about when when things were being written when when were these when were these stories being written and actually I started to think about how do you understand you know because Star Star Wars sorry Transformers was big in the 80s it kind of then just disappeared and then came back and came back then in 2007. It kind of just went off the radar generally speaking um and then I thought well actually how does what does the presentation or the representation of um Prime's leadership look like within the context of when it's being written and actually when you think about it it's pretty i i i it his his trajectory really and his partner and his style of leadership really does reflect the time that it's that that character's being written because you know they came out in 84 um we are 1980 early 1980s we're at the height of you know cold war tensions yes there are shifting tones but the early 1980s is still defined by the Cold War confrontation by the US and Soviet Union Ronald Reagan takes a hard line against the USSR in 1983 calling them the evil empire uh nuclear anxiety is real across the Atlantic in the US in the in Europe we're seeing mass protests over missile deployment by 1984 we're seeing signs early signs of a thaw but public consciousness globally is generally shaped by this existential threat Autobots USA Decepticons USSR good versus evil war is constant which by the 1980s it had been we have felt like basically the 20th century in the Western hemisphere had been defined by war for sp for its entirety the entire century basically so it mirrors when they write in they write in you know that that those cartoons in the early 1980s it very much mirrors a world that is thought about in blocks and absolutes and that moral certainty and that paternal leadership that we see uh across Transformers um and and particularly in Optimus Prime it very very much reflects a world that is comfortable with binary narratives of good versus evil order versus chaos um you know the US versus the USSR and us in Europe stuck in the middle and I thought yeah okay that makes a lot of sense because you see it you see it and I think and you see that in his and and I i in how he leads and that very much that paternal uh approach to his team leadership but then actually then I thought well yeah but what does it look like then um as we kind of progress then into the 90s into the noughties and then when the when the Bay films you know the the 2007 to 17 movies are come are are released and we've seen then the tone of the leadership um which previously was cert was about certainty stability clarity around right and wrong where leadership becomes much more about it's combatitive it's defensive it's burdened by constant conflict and Optimus Prime in those earlier movies is much more aggressive and battled hardened you know um violence is more explicit and personal than it had been when it was written because violence wasn't explicit and personal during the Cold War that was the whole purpose of the Cold War we had this massive this this Iron Kurt it was cold with this iron curtain between us all absolutely so um and of course they're writing those movies in the context of a post-911 media when we are in the midst again though of prolonged conflict moral fatigue blurred ethical lines um the tension it is more controversial um version of the Transformers and of Optimus Prime than we had seen in the 80s and the 90s and it stretches the original sort of moral frame of Optimus Prime and the autobots and the matrix of leadership and it raises the question about them you know should should Prime's or Prime's leadership model is is is is rewritten effectively and and presented I think in a more complex view in a complex narrative it's probably more reflective and it recognizes that we want our leaders to be to be more human and not just heroic you know Transformers was coming out the same time in the 80s as Superman uh Raiders of the you know Indiana Jones Star Wars um Rambo um Terminator these movies were all about heroes good versus bad good versus bad evil you know good versus evil and and good always always always coming out on top that was Hollywood's benchmark for a successful blockbuster by the time we get to the the the the the the 2010s then the late 2010s well then audiences are wanting yes they want in nostalgia but they're also wanting credibility and leaders need to be more principled than simply naive and I think early representation of Optimus Prime is naive that what I can complain about his piety I think it's actually naivety that frustrates me with that representation of the early 1980s Optimus Prime and and we start to see in those late in those last movies and and also in the and let's not forget the film Bumblebee as well um it's not just but you know because that was a spin-off movie you know Optimus returns to be a more yes he's still values led but I think he's probably more composed as a leader and I think actually the very fact that that up that Bumblebee movie was made tall reflects that actually we were starting to see a narrative around leadership that said it can't all sit with one character in the team yeah yeah so it's interesting yeah you are no you are I hadn't thought about it in that way the only to be honest when I was in my research when I was watching the cartoons in I think the first or second episode they drill for oil and I was like ah this is such an 80s thing drilling for oil in the first episode because they need oil to power their jump things to get back to Cybertron. But you're right and I think with Optimus Prime you see it's the weight of leadership and I think in the 80s the weight of leadership was something to be more proud of that you could stand with it that you could take the weight of leadership on your shoulders and you could come out being the good guy um and you'd see at the end you know just trying would give his orders and then there's something might happen he would get involved he might get hurt but he would save the day whereas in the films like you said he is more worn he is more tired and that is a much more realistic depiction of leadership than late's polarity so to speak again and again like you said that's a product of the time um yeah I mean he is lit he is figuratively and literally broken you know yeah you know Mark look not Mark Wahlberg's character is fixing him you know he is actually you know um so yeah I think um yeah I think and I and you would not we that was no part of the narrative the leadership narrative in the early 80s good could not be broken good just leadership was about perseverance it was about um it uh resilience was only understood in terms of sacrifice not in terms of sustainability no and and I think he uh I mean watching it he inspired I think he inspires hope I do think he is this symbol of hope but actually looking back for well for me and I don't know about you but for anyone who's led when I look at leaders I am inspired when I see them sounds harsh when I see them struggle but when I see them actually when I see you know with Optimus Prime you see this war torn robot who is broken physically as you say and it sort of it sort of shows that even these super robots are alien things they can be just as broken as humans and that to me inspires me more than watching this great Optimus Prime who absorbs everyone's feelings and comes out of it being okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

I mean in Age of Extinction um I can't remember which one that is one of the middle ones the humans turn on the Autobots and hunt them but Optimus Prime he he doesn't turn on humans he doesn't give up he fights for what's right despite it being really hard and messy and and he comes through it and the humans stop hunting the Autobots etc etc but that's yeah it's not a black and white that's not humans good Autobots bad it's just a very messy situation it's resolved which again is much more reflective of business of leadership of real life than the right wrong from the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Absolutely absolutely and I think you know latterly then we begin to sort of understand him he is very much about conviction he is uh he the he is not a he is bizarrely he is not a charismatic leader he's not but charisma not in the way that Tony Stark is charismatic no no he's confident though he I mean he's a confident leader oh absolutely he doesn't give huge speeches but you know when he talks he speaks I suppose like you said with conviction and yeah yeah confidence but yeah no no no I get I get what you mean he won't yeah yeah yeah I don't think he's I mean he's not charismatic in the way that I would say Jean Luc Picard is a charismatic leader um in fact I'd probably say you know Jean-Louis Picard probably sits between is equidistant between Tony Stark and Optimus Prime but you know um but I think it is I know again my God all those years in university all those degrees and for what he's you know he's yeah he's he gives he gives he he absolutely I think builds confidence through his conviction. He builds stability through his convictions he creates um clarity of purpose through his conviction and I think that is where the complexities are and moral rigidity begin to falter because then you begin to understand that he's not is he's not rigid. He simply has a style of leadership that is the foundation of which are his moral convictions which are s which is different to being a moral morally rigid individual I still don't think he is um I actually don't think I I don't think he's a great I I don't think he's a great leader I think he is I think he creates sensible conditions for his team but I don't think it's on purpose I don't I think the boys have more psychological safety than the Autobots absolutely which is saying something which is saying something the boys have more psychological safety than the Autobots I agree I agree because actually the they don't blindly follow um Billy Butcher they don't blindly follow Billy Butcher positives no I think while for all Billy's swearing expletive fault you will listen to them eventually whereas with Optimus Prime I mean they say we've got two ears one mouth for a reason I do think that leaders do need to I don't know the ratios but I I think they need to listen just as much as they talk and I don't think he does Optimus Prime and I don't think that's because he doesn't listen to his team I think it's because his team don't challenge him that's not out of fear that's out of comfort which is equally wrong. And culture he hasn't cultivated a culture that says I need to hear something I think he feels the weight of the burden of responsibility is uh for the matrix um matrix of leadership is so so heavy on him I think it it actually Actually it crushes it it's crushing him to the point where he isn't able to I think that's what that's yeah he isn't able to or doesn't know how to create a culture because you know of of constructive conflict within his team. Arguably he is exactly the same as Megatron. Oh but they uh which which then goes back and approves the theory about it's good versus bad. He is a he is a he is a product of he is a product of the 1980s and he looks he feels to me he feels like a bit of a dinosaur in those in those 2007 2017 movies. He feels archaic.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

He's quite reactive, which I think is his problem. He gets and it's probably why he doesn't develop his leadership style or think possibly more about how the Autobots could operate as a team. He's reactive to Megatron, arguably Megatron is quite strategic. He uses um Optimus Prime's um call them character flaws to his advantage. He is Megatron is thinking ahead somewhat more. I mean, I see Megatron as a somewhat of a bit of a Darth Vader type. We actually didn't think Darth Vader was too much too a bad leader. Um I do think Optimus Prime, if he was less reactive, going back to my point about him being more strategic, slightly less operational, or if he delegated the operations of the Autobots, then he could take a step back.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

And of course, when you're a Decepticon, one of the joys of leadership in being you know Megatron is that when you know the ends justify the means, you don't have a moral compass, therefore, actually you're far more willing, he is probably far more willing to give the Decepticons uh uh you know uh freedom to be creative in their decision making in their uh in their response to the immediate circumstances. We frequently see Optimus Prime chastising Bumblebee in particular, you know, but off chastising his team. Whereas I get a sense that you probably could go quite far with Megatron if you rocked up and said, Oh, actually, you know, I did this, that, and the other. I didn't ask your permission, but by the way, I had these results. Megatron feels more results forecast than um than Optimus Prime, which is but then we're getting back into this world then of um I think it's the same challenges we've we've had. I mean, we we haven't done have we we haven't done Steve Austin yet, have we properly? We haven't done Captain America. Steve Rogers, sorry, Steve Austin's innocent. No, no, he's Steve Austin's is actually the million six million dollar man. Yeah, so we're going back to the 1980s. I'm just flipping channels now between uh I'll be talking about the A-Team and Alf next.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Um yeah, um the A team on the list, but um no, we've got we've got Steve Rogers, I think in four or five weeks we've got Steve Rogers on the list because we could talk about him quite a lot.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Um I think we have exactly well when we do when we do Steve Rogers in detail, we'll have the same issue here, which is um although perhaps less no, but maybe less so, same issue, but less pronounced, because we've we agreed that actually Steve Rogers is more willing to challenge the system he serves. Whereas I think Optimus Prime is so he is really we talk about I talk about the kind of religio religios is that religios religiosity, is that a word? The religion that that surrounds a word. We've made it a word. Optimus Prime. Well, obviously that reflects his religious um commitment to get him, you know, to to to return into um their home planet and you know and and return in the matrix of leadership. So I think Yeah, I think we end up but we we end up in this same kind of challenging in vi challenging place, which is because he has a moral compass, because he better understands the consequences of good versus bad, because he has a bigger um or is uh a more sympathetic and wider perspective on humanity. Um and I mean and I mean humanity with a lowercase H as well as a an uppercase H. I think he's probably more restricted than than Megatron is.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Definitely. And I think thinking about Steve Rogers and Megatron, Steve Rogers, like I said, like we said before, he've got strong characters challenging him frequently. And I mean we talked about this when we did our Avengers episode. You know, the Avengers, they kind of have different leaders at different points. Now, I know the Sentinel Prime was the leader of the Autobots before Oxtimus Prime, kind of in Octopus Prime's team. So he doesn't have the loud voices, he doesn't have the challenges, which probably actually means he loses perspective in a way. Megatron, on the other hand, is challenged. I was reading, there are various points, I can't remember which of the um Decepticons it is. He's challenged for leadership quite a bit. And Megatron says, well, bring it on. And actually, having that challenge reinforces leadership in a way, it probably keeps you on your toes more than if you're not challenged, even though I think he's challenged in quite a physical and violent way. Whereas Optimus Prime, that's probably not even in his head.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

No.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

But he could potentially be challenged and he needs to be more agile and better himself.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

I don't think we've painted a particularly positive picture of Optimus Prime, and again, it's one of those ones where on the face of it you look at it and you think, oh yeah, he's you know, an obvious lens to look at leadership, but actually yeah, I I drill down to him, he's not he's not he's not mean. Not that No, he's not no, no, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

You know, he treats them with like I was watching the the contrast between Megatron giving orders and Optimus Prime giving orders. Megatron literally would say, I order you to do this, and he would do it. Whereas Optimus Prime would be like, We need to save the mine, Timmy, or whatever. And um they would kind of Timmy Skippy. Is it Skippy, the kangaroo?

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Anyway, yes, uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

But yeah, but whereas Optimus Prime would say, Go save, go save the mine, go rescue those guys on the oil rig. And they would kind of just go do it. So in that, in that sense, he's got he's empowered them to know in those situations when they need to kind of you know what they need to do. Um, so he treats them with respect. Not again, not that that's the only thing that makes you a good leader. I'm trying I'm trying to rescue poor old adopters.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Look, I think he's got moral authority, he he does lead under pressure, but I think the burden of command is I think it overwhelms him. The burden of command overwhelms him. He anchors decision, his decision making is clear. Uh, he's you know, you're never left in any doubt as to what's expected of you. Um as you say, his style is far better, far more constructive than it's not it's not driven through fear. And how often have we seen leadership that is driven by fear? Or or responses to leadership that are driven by fear? So there's none of that. There's none of that. So clearly, you know, his you know, his followers, you know, people, you know, the team follows him through his behaviour, which is again, which I think speaks volumes about about the value of him as a leader. But I think um the cost of leadership is significant to Optimus Prime. He fails to sort of design any sort of infrastructure around him to alleviate any of that, those pressures. Um so for you know, he and you know, whilst he I think he probably sees himself as a steward of this team rather than the owner of this team, which is good, which is healthy. Stewarding them rather than owning them. I still am not seeing um I I think he is so fundamentally flawed that I I would I would hate to work for him. He would not inspire I would hate to work for him. I I he would he is just the the source of far too many frustrations.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

He needs a deputy, I didn't think about it. He needs a second in command. So they've got a flat structure, don't they?

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Oh, yeah, everyone else.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Yeah. So so so where do we score him? Where do we score him on the uh I mean yeah I he's gonna score quite low for me. I think that's obvious he's gonna score which breaks my heart because you know I love Optimus Prime, you know, I love Optimus Prime, but I think we're just ruining all our favourite characters. He's a solid he's a s he's a solid two and a half, maybe three for me.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Yeah, I was gonna say three-ish. Better than Anakin.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

I mean my god better than Anakin, yeah. Um would he survive? How would he do in the Avengers?

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Oh, he wouldn't survive. He wouldn't, he wouldn't. I don't think Can you imagine Optimus Prime facing off against Thanos? Oh my goodness. Honestly, it would you know, and and trying to outmaneuver, it would just be a per I think there you go. One of the reasons why this you know this interplanetary war goes on and on and on and on and on is he's not a ruthless leader.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

No, he no, he's not at all. And you whilst whilst you don't want to be a ruthless leader, you have to make ruthless decisions at times.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Yeah, you don't have to be evil to be ruthless, you know, far from it. And so uh I think I think I think in the in in the world of advan in the universe of of of Marvel, he would no the only place the only place in my mind's eye that I can see him having any sustainable success and authority is if he was put in charge of the wall.

SPEAKER_02 55:07

You like sticking people on the wall, don't you? Why didn't we stick Mando on the wall as well?

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Mando would be on the wall as well. Mando Mando would be on the wall. Although I think Mando would be full of frustrations as well, having to work to uh Optimus Prime. He would be alright, he would be leading the wall, but that yeah, I can't see him thriving in any environment. He barely survives in his own.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

Yeah, I'm just thinking the Star Wars universe, it moves too quickly. It would move too fast for him, Star Wars universe, when you've got rebels in the Empire. I couldn't you know, yeah, I can't place him in Star Trek. God I mean the Federation would probably bring Cybertron in, and that would be that. You know, they would say, okay, welcome welcome Autobots, join join Starfleet.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

It's brutal, it's brutal. All I can see him as is is actually just uh as a really good logistics team, literally as a truck. That's that's that's uh it breaks my heart, but that's where he's at for me.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to ruin him for you.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Uh but he's ruined. He's he's absolutely ruined for me, but um I still love him, but yeah, he's he's not great for me.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

He's not great, which it's sad because he kind of well, he's he's seen as the hero.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Wow, but yeah, but that's it though, isn't it? And that's it.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

Oh, we've we've torn that apart.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Yeah. Uh I don't want my leaders to be heroes. I don't want heroics. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

It's true. Right. Right, true.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

This feels a lot like when we did um was it Batman when we finished Batman and we were completely depressed as well.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

Um Yeah, spoiler alert, next week is so we're next week we we are releasing Professor X, which we actually recorded several months ago. Yes, yes, he was an interesting one to do as well, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_00 57:17

He was, yeah. Yeah, I was listening back to that actually, and and of course we must have recorded it on my birthday. So we recorded it back in December because I was like, oh yeah, my god, we did record this a long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

Yeah, that wasn't the cheeriest either. God.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

One to look forward to next week. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

Yeah, but then but then the one after that we are doing is Captain Pike, who is a much more No, there is a charismatic leader.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

There is a charismatic leader, Captain Pike.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

I'll I'll talk about my anecdote when I spoke to him in that episode, just to drop it in there.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

You're just gonna talk about your dreams, and then I woke up and it was all a dream. Okay, there we go. Well, that's what so Professor X next week, and then we're doing Captain Pike. Is that what you said? Yeah, okay, cool. Excellent, excellent. Well, I'm looking forward to it. Good, brilliant, excellent.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

Yeah, awesome. I haven't thought of a new way to say goodbye, other than I'm sorry, Optimus Prime.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

All right, right. Well, we see you next week for um Professor X. Professor X, brilliant. Okay, take care.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Alright, bye.