Captain Christopher Pike

This week, The Leadership Multiverse heads back to Starfleet to explore the leadership of Captain Christopher Pike.

We look at Pike as a servant leader: calm, values-led, emotionally intelligent and deeply trusted by his crew. We discuss how he creates psychological safety, invites challenge, humanises command and carries the burden of knowing his own tragic future.

We also ask where his strengths become risks. Does his empathy tip into paternalism? Does he carry too much alone? Can a leader who values consensus still move quickly when the moment demands command?

Expect comparisons with Kirk, Picard, Burnham, Sisko and Janeway, plus the usual attempt to place him somewhere improbable in the wider leadership multiverse. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Hello, hello. How are we?

SPEAKER_03 0:32

I'm very good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Yeah, good. Very good.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I think I've recovered from our little Comic Con law.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

I wondered if you were going to mention it. I wondered if uh, you know, Oh, sorry, I've outded you. So sorry. You outdid me to the audience. Yeah, no, um, that was a good we so we went to Comic Con in Liverpool um last weekend. And it was uh, I really enjoyed it. I've been telling a lot of people about it, actually. I've been people I've been working with have been saying what you do for bank holiday. I said I said someone who someone who doesn't like me made me go to Comic Con. And uh I had to drive I had to drive 19 hours to get them back. But um yeah, I really enjoyed it. I thought it was a really good vibe actually. I was I've been I've been telling people, I've been reflecting on it. I thought good energy in that place, actually. Lots of people just coming together, exploring their and you know, enjoying their their love of science fiction, fantasy, pop culture. I I really enjoyed it. I'm looking forward to uh London. Is that what we're doing next? London.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah. Yes, and like well, we could redo Southampton if we want to go on the the regional, the small regional ones.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, yeah, we could. I'm probably just gonna stick with London, actually. I think I'm just gonna stick with London in October. Uh build our way up to eventually, you know, running this podcast on a sound stage in uh in San Diego, maybe, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Um dream!

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yeah, let's just do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

The dream let's just do it.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

So what are we doing? I am I I'll say I am so excited about this episode. We are doing Captain Christopher Pike from Star Trek. Yay!

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Is this is this only our second? No, this is not. This is our third Star Trek uh episode, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yes, we did yeah, Picard, Kirk. That's Picard and Kirk. Although they were quite a while ago now.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

So so this is episode 18. So a sixth, a sixth of our C of our series is dedicated to Star Trek uh USS Enterprise Captains. It's correct.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

And the sixth is Star Wars, because we've got Leia, Darth Vader, and Anakin.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

You've you've a third is on yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

You've batted that away nicely. You've batted that away. Because I know that Star Trek, that's your first love, isn't it? Star Trek. So um it is.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, so Christopher's came flying. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Christopher Pike. Now, I don't I don't really know as as much about Christopher Pike. I've watched all of the Strange New Worlds and I've watched Discovery, so I kind of know I know him, but I don't really know as much about him until I started doing more and more research. I didn't really know much about his backstory about who he is.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

So tell us a wee bit about a biography because so Pike was born in the 23rd century on Earth, and he joins Starfleet, where he rises up through the rank, and by the mid-2020s, is that how you say that year? He becomes captain of the enterprise, and he's famously the captain before James T. Kirk. Now he jumps around quite a bit in the series, so he actually first appears in the pilot episode of the original series of Star Trek Age, um, where he encounters these powerful aliens called the Toulouse who create realistic illusions and he resists their attempt to manipulate him. Um and then he's only in I think another two episodes of the originals where his tragic destiny is revealed, um, which we do see in Star Trek Discovery, and then we see it sort of haunt him in Strange New Worlds. Um, he's exposed to radiation while he's trying to rescue some cadets from a training accident, and his injuries leave him severely burnt, paralyzed, and he only can communicate through a blinking light on a life support care. Um and he's then returned in the original series to Talos 4, which is where he originally met the Telosians, and they use their powers to give him the illusion of a peaceful, fulfilling life. Now, since then, he's obviously been expanded in the newer Star Trek series in Star Trek Discovery, where he comes on in the second season to captain the Discovery temporarily. Um and it's in that series where he is shown a vision by the Klingons of his terrible fate, which is to happen, I think, seven or eight years later. And then the Strange New World series is him captain, it's him as captain of the Enterprise, which is where we start to see the build of James T. Kirk's crew come along. So Spock is already there as science officer.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

I was just laughing that you say that James T. Kirk's crew, which is interesting because I actually think they're Pike's crew that Kirk inherits, but it's interesting that you've you've gone there straight away. But go on, Carrie.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Apologise to Captain all the Captain Pike fans out there, but it's where we start to see the build-up to the kind of crew that we know that Kirk has in the Enterprise. So that's kind of his backstory. I would say he stands out as a leader, he's incredibly symbolic, I think, of duty. He has incredible empathy, he's got a good balance of strength and empathy, empathy, and he's in a way quite a tragic figure. We'd see him grapple with his fate, which I think is absolutely fascinating for his leadership style, um, and how he goes on and lives his life knowing what will eventually undoubtedly unfortunately happen to him. So that's a sort of a summary of Pike. I mean, I don't know what your take on him is. Well I like him.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

I like Pike. Uh I like Pike and I think he's I think he's one of probably the of everyone we've looked at or so far, I think he's probably one of the most balanced leaders that we've uh that we've encountered. I think um, you know, I th I I I do think and we'll come on to this in a we well, you know, he has a deep emotional attachment to his crew, and we see that repeatedly. And I think a lot of that is driven by yes, what he knows is going to happen to him, but also you know, part of his backstory where he's lost crew, you know, in the past, um young cadets, uh young crew members that he's lost. I think that that's that that that sits as a as an emotional burden on him, but I think it allows him to sort of I think he humanizes authority in in a far, far more consistent way than definitely Kirk, definitely Picard, and and definitely probably most of the other sort of individuals that we've explored. Um you know, I think how that manifests, you know, you see senior officers, they disagree with him openly, junior officers are encouraged to contribute, he uses questioning instead of declaring, you know, his decisions, you know, he he challenges his team in a constructive and a positive way um to challenge him, you know, and I think that is that's where I think the balance comes from in his style. I see a lot of that emotional attachment uh translates as you know, he's concerned about the emotional welfare of his crew, and I think there's a and I think it also manifests in a strong sort of ethical core, which I see, you know, which we see in all of the all of this all of the um Star Trek uh uh Marshall, we don't see in all of the Star Trek uh uh leadership, but you know, we largely see particularly in the characters.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Yeah, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Yeah so I think he's definitely the most I think he's definitely the most balanced uh or one of the most balanced leaders we've explored. And I really I do like him because of that. I like him a lot. I like him a lot. I think he combines servant leadership with distributed leadership, he's emotionally intelligent, but he's also values-based. I think he's got a high level of trust, and I think he's uh in his crew, and they therefore have a high level of trust in him, and I think he's calm in terms of crisis leadership. So on the surface, the guy is a shining beacon of you know exemplary leadership.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

I would I would agree.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Well, oh sorry, go on, no, go on, oh, go on, no, go on, go on. I was gonna say I can get to that.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah, well, I I would agree, and what I like about him is as well, he seems genuine. So, like you say, he wants to be challenged when he is challenged at various points, and if uh and he he will openly say, You're right, you're right, let's change course, let's change what we're doing. You know, he he isn't threatened by the challenge. And there's an episode of Star Trek Discovery where he's talking to Michael and he says to her, Oh, I don't mind dissent, really, I don't. And I think for a captain, he says that on the bridge, for a leader to say that in front of the whole crew, I think that's a really powerful statement. Because how many times do you stand in front of your team and say to everyone in such black and white terms, please challenge me in you know, like that?

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Well, I I do it all the time, but then but but well, but and I I don't mean to say but I do because and it surprises me that that's it. Well, I do as well. But that it is yeah, that it's a modern and I think what you're saying is really it is correct, but I think it's a sad reflection, however, of an awful lot of leadership that goes on that individuals don't feel that they're capable and confident enough in themselves to be able to say that openly and admit I want to be challenged. So it is such a strength of leadership. Absolutely. No, I agree with you, I agree with you completely.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

He means it as well, which I think you know you see follow-through with that. Because sure, every I mean the people say, I mean, people do say that, and then you challenge them and they say, Yeah, yeah, you're right. Anyway, actually, let's let's move on. But I just wanted to pick up on the team point as well, because I think when we look at leaders, we all have to look at how their team thinks of them, how their team responds, how their team follows them. And you're right, his his crew, they say they love him, but they respect him. They like him as well, they openly like him. Um and I I just want to go on, no. No, I was just I was just gonna drop in because you know I hate to mention it, Andrew, but um, I have spoken to Hansen Mount who plays Pike. You know, not that I I rarely I rarely mention it.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Really drop that into conversation. Uh-huh. Have you? Have you really? Gosh. Oh Anseen. Oh, have you really? Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I just listened to it back because uh I recorded it, because obviously they did.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

There's nothing, there's nothing there's nothing uh worrying about that at all, is there?

SPEAKER_01 12:04

We were in front, right? It was at a um conference, a convention, Star Trek convention, but I I asked him what he thought of Pike as a leader, and he said he thought it's greatest tool is his crew. Now, how many leaders would say that really? They'd probably say, Oh, it's my successes, it's what I've achieved. But for him, it's his crew, and he said he believed that Pike was a servant leader, which obviously we talked about, and that he wants Pike gives the people what they need to do their job. So he is enabling all of that. That's really powerful, and he's not he's not just there on the bridge to do that. I mean, we see him, I hate this phrase, he goes above and beyond. I mean, he hosts dinners for his crew. I mean, he openly wants to see them outside of work, which you know, sometimes I'm not sure that's true.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

Uh I think Yeah, I'm not sure he openly I don't sure he wants to see them. I'm not sure, but I definitely agree with you about you know that he's the end goal of it, yeah. Yes, yes, yeah. I mean, look, I mean let's not if let's not let's not paint him in you know such an angelic light. I mean if he's if he's a clever leader, he'll know what being an authentic leader requires. And I think he is highly authentic, and I do ag I do agree, you know, going back to the piece about um you know this deep emotional bond that he has with his you know, attachment that he has with his crew, it does and it it you know and and and I think the crew, those those dinner scenes, you know, he starts off on that episode one of um Strange New Worlds, you know, he walks in to a highly traumatised crew, you know, recent events uh have been you know significant, and and by uh rather than sort of just going in there and standing on the bridge, reasserting authority, laying, you know, laying it, laying his authority bare, yeah, you're right. You know, the fact that he cooks for his senior staff, it is a way of sort of I suppose exposing not vulnerability, but it's certainly exposing an a new culture of openness and honesty. Because he's inviting them into his home, that's a you know, that's a big step. You know, he's bringing them into his private personal space, that is a benchmark for his authenticity. I go, I would question whether you know that's I mean, I don't know. We we don't know. It's I think it's probably a level of amateur psychology that I'm not qualified in. But whether that he wants to do that or as an excellent leader, he recognises the value of doing that and the positive impact that that has on the team. You know, I think we can all learn from that, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yeah, agree. I suppose as well, it's it's a slightly different scenario because they live on the ship. I mean, they yeah, you know, I suppose it's not like going to a work dinner.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Oh my god. But I agree, it's can you imagine living with the oh the some of the people I've worked with over the years?

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Oh god, there wouldn't be a ship big enough.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

They couldn't be, oh my god, I'd be I'd be going over to the Klingons, honestly God. But yeah, I think he does he he intentionally reduces emotional distance between command and crew, between leadership and the team. I think he understands the cohesion isn't created through slogans, it's not created through you know manifestos, it's created through relationships, and that's a theme we come back to consistently through um the pod, which is because that's all leadership is about. It's all leadership is, it's all everything is, it's just humanity, it's just people having really good, positive, constructed relationships. And I think he he does he he is he he does exemplify that exceptionally well.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Definitely. I was talking to someone the other day about leadership, and he said, Well, it really, when you look at it, it's just psychology. Not to I'm not dumbing down psychology, but a lot of leadership is psychology, you know, relationships and how you are with people, and I think with Pike, he goes to understand the individual, which is really important. He gets to know people individually, and there's there's an episode where a deflector Klingon general comes over to the Federation side, and some of his crew have fought in the Klingon wars, and he speaks to them individually and says, You don't have to interact with him, you don't have to come to dinner with him because he knows the friction.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Yeah, yeah, he recognises that in yeah, we're all different. We some of us are not able to just get over it, some of us are not able to just move on. Some of them are human, some of them aren't, but you know, as as as human beings, we all process our experiences, our traumas, our challenges, our successes, we all process them differently. And and and that again is a significant, um, a significant skill that so many leaders, I think, um you know, miss. And I actually I think if we make a Star Trek comparison, um, you know, we've already mentioned it a couple of times. Oh, and I can't wait to do this one. Michael Burnham. Um God, I just can't stand it. Yeah, I just can't stand the way you know the way she is when she's on when she's on the bridge, you know, when she's the cap you know, and actually, hers is all intensity driven leadership. You know, and uh it's just exhausting. It's just exhausting, and actually, if you compare and actually if you look at Picard, Picard, I mean we love Picard, we we you know we we make no secret of that, but he's a form more formal intellectualism to brings more of that to the table. He's he's not his crew are uh supremely loyal to him, but he doesn't have the same level of emotional connection to his crew that Pike does.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

No, definitely not. I think Kirk does, but again, that comes from competent chaos, maybe not chaos, a lot of running around and you know, which he does which he pulls off, you know, my feelings on Kirk, but he does not exude the calmness of Pike. I think something else that Pike does is he manages to pull off like really high standards and get results without becoming authoritarian, without being too rudent courage, he doesn't humiliate people to get there. He's not performing, but he's also showing this kind of strong, calm leadership. And I think quite a lot of fictional characters, fictional leaders, but also actual real life leaders confuse command presence with this sort of emotional uh repression, this sort of roboticness, and he doesn't, he manages to pull off the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Yeah, yeah, he does. I mean, he's he he he does create uh significant psychological safety, significant uh trust-based environments, absolutely, but also the the fact that he bring he's calm, you know. When he you know you know, he temporarily takes command of the of Discovery, you know, back in Discovery season two, you know, the ship is fragmented, they are suspicious, the crew are operationally unstable after Lorcas. I mean, we should do an episode about Lorca actually, because he's just off the planet. Literally, you know, we talk about leadership, uh, or people in leadership positions, because you know my view, there's no such thing as bad leadership, there's just leadership or people who are not good at it. I think there's an episode, there's an exploration there about how he the shadow he casts across Pike's crew lasts such a long time, and it's worth it's I think it is worth in another episode looking at Lorca because you know, I think too often we're just so relieved to get rid of, you know, the you know, to see the back of, you know, bad. Yeah, yeah, a bad you know, a bad leader or a poor decision maker, uh you know, whatever they are. We're so glad to see the back of them that we don't take time to recover, we don't take time to reflect on was that leadership, or was that something horrendous in you know put um uh you know parading his leadership? And actually, I think we good to look at Lorca because it does it does then transcend Pike's um uh uh temporary command of when you know it uh in Discovery. So I think that's you know one to look at. Because in that in that scenario, through his because he's got this this this um talent for creating psycho psychological safety nets because he is calm under pressure, he immediately stabilizes the culture uh on that ship. He restores transparency, he invites challenge, we've already spoken about that. But he by doing so he reduces the paranoia that's pervading the crew and he re-establishes ethical norms, but he doesn't overcorrect through grand speeches, he doesn't stand there grandstanding on the on the bridge, which we know an awful lot of time in Star Trek uh that is that is sometimes there can be some real uh moral grandstanding, but actually he just changes the atmosphere of that crew through consistency, and I think it's worth exploring um that one down the line. But I think it's testament to Pike's strength of character that he can walk into that that that massively traumatized. And destabilized the environment and relatively quick it quickly pull it back. I don't think Michael Boomman could have done that.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Oh no, absolutely not. Um, I think that's such a good point as well, because he also acknowledges, he doesn't say it, but that team have got muscle memory. I mean, we talk about muscle memory a lot when you've been through something in a bad workplace or something that's traumatic or a traumatic environment. So exactly, they would be completely hostile to him. And I think his first introduction to them, when he is asking to he wants to know them, he says, okay, um, let's go round, say your names, don't use your ranks. And isn't it funny how saying something like that as the first impression, don't use your ranks after, you know, in a place in a ship, in a Starfleet ship where you are captain, first officer, science officer, etc., etc., he's just automatically humanizing them, which would probably probably might feel a bit almost unsettling after going from that environment, being like, oh, I'm just saying my name, not my rank. This new captain doesn't want my rank. Like it that's a good thing, I'm saying, but the kind of the the elastic band snapping of from being from one traumatic place to oh, he doesn't seem to care about the rank. And it also kind of that shows as well, setting the scene and the culture from day one, which is incredibly important, not going in and ripping everything up and saying, Oh, right, we're gonna do things differently my way, but just small symbolic gestures like that really make a difference in leadership.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

We talk a lot about you know character journey arcs and it evolutions, and I think what's significant about Pike's character is that you know when he finds out in um uh Through the Valley of Shadows, when in Discovery Season 2 he finds out and he accepts, you know, quite a horrific future that is you know that awaits him. Um although to be honest, uh sometimes I think, oh, if I could meet somebody who could just make me imagine that life was amazing all the time, I I'd probably get to be good friends with them. But you know, that that that future and the knowledge of that future is is central then to his leadership identity. Um because he could he could choose to be selfish. He could say, Well, do you know what I'm not gonna do that, I'm gonna choose not to do that. But he doesn't, he doesn't instead he chooses duty, chooses his obligation, he chooses his his own sense of loyalty and connection to his crew. And actually, you know, he is a that transforms him into this he is into a leader who is carrying an extension existential burden, but he doesn't become bitter, he doesn't become authoritarian, he doesn't become nihilistic about it, he still maintains his core identity as a leader, his his core values as a leader, and I think be able to be able to do that in the s in in the face and we talk about you know the strength of character, the strength of leadership, when you know, we've spoken about I'm just thinking we've spoken about it in all different all the different contexts when in a crisis you know uh being able to keep calm under pressure, ostensibly when you're involved in a circumstance, but actually you may be on the bridge when there's fighting going on on a planet, or you may be, you know, yeah, you know, in the midst of I'm just trying to think, you know, in in the midst of one of Avengers very many destructions of you know um cityscapes, but you might you know yes, you're involved, but you're not involved. Yeah. This is only this is distinctly unique to him, and it's directly going to impact only him. It's not gonna have any impact on anybody else, but he still sustains and maintains his values, and I think that that that for me is that's what makes that that what's what makes him score so very highly for me as a as a leader. But right, we've spent, I don't know, 25 minutes talking about how incredible this guy is. Let's not like but I you know we do need to I think we do need to acknowledge and we should acknowledge he's not perfect, he's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Let's talk about some of his flaws because actually, you know, he he's not flawless. He's not flawless at all. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 26:25

What do you where do you think that he's well I think you said he's highly empathetic, and that is obviously a great trait to have. I think that can have a tendency to come with things like overcarrying emotional burdens. So I think he I think he internalizes stress a lot to protect his crew, um which we see I mean senior leaders do or can do quite frequently. Um and I think he probably thinks I don't know, I'm suspecting he thinks that if I take it, if I absorb it, means everyone can get on with their job, which maybe in the moment, maybe if they're doing something life where lives are at stake, then it would work, but down the line it does not. You know, I mean grant here you go.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Well, I was gonna say, no, I agree. I think when we see it a lot, don't we? We see a lot of senior leaders um who believe that yeah, they if they carry the burden of accountability, then yeah, it put it somehow protects the team, it protects circumstances, but all it leads to is an unhealthy personal ownership of almost everything, and which is unbearable for anybody to to hold on to for any length of time, and invariably has you know will have a detrimental impact on their leadership style.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Definitely, and it just delays it anyway. I mean, we're talking about you know, he so he doesn't let his future define him, but it definitely impacts him. I mean, in the first episode of Strange New World, you know, he sort of isolated himself initially in his cabin in Montana or somewhere. Um we see a reluctance to when he's when he's got the long hair and the beard and he's fairly unrecognisable. Um and we do see a reluctance, and I know that's to do with him, but to talk about it, he gets he get as the seasons go on, he does get much better. But we do see that. I think he thinks, oh, if I can just be quiet about the pain, whether it's his own pain or someone else's pain, then it will be okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Um, you know, and I think sometimes we talk a lot about self-awareness and and how that is you know such a core component of emotional intelligence. Do you think do you think he's simply in shock or do you think in in that and that it's just taking him time to process, or do you think he's not a very self-aware because he's so acutely aware of everybody else, is he actually quite inhibited in terms of his own his perspective is is his keep calm and carry on approach around his own future is that does that actually demonstrate a reluctance to address it?

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Oh, good question. Um I think he has to force himself to address it. I think he's kind of I'll say go go with the adrenaline. I think when he's being captain and he's with the crew, I think he's possibly not massively self-aware, and then he has to almost shut himself out.

SPEAKER_04 29:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

I mean, we see him quite a bit. He might he might do it with Una, his first officer. We see them sort of having, you know, at the end of a day, they have whiskey and sh and he will talk to her. And I think it's after some of those conversations, perhaps the self-awareness dawns on him. But I think he's running on adrenaline so much calmly, and maybe actually maybe it's taking all of his energy to be that calm presence, but it's only when he stops that he becomes more self-aware and does the inner work. I mean, when we when we do inner work as leaders, I'm just I'm reflecting on my sort of experiences. You know, you'd say self-development is important, going on courses, you know, doing lots of reading around subjects, actively working on yourself. Well, that tends to fall down the to-do list quite a bit when you've got twenty-five other things going on. I wonder if that's the same for him.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Yeah, I mean, yes, yeah. Well yeah, well, it must be. It must be because I mean self- and also self-reflection is really hard. It's really hard to, you know, to um you know, we talk about standing in front of people and saying, you know, I'm I'm I'm cool with uh challenge. Um I'm yeah, I I I I welcome it. I welcome that. Actually, I would argue, and this is just my perspective, I actually think admitting that shows it that demonstrates a real you know vulnerability, a willingness to learn, a willingness to be open, uh, an acceptance that you're not your C and I and that actually you need other people to you know and I think that's that is a strength of character in leadership to say that out loud. I actually think it's harder to admit it to yourself in private. Because we tell ourselves stories about who we are, we tell ourselves stories, we paint pictures of who we are to make get ourselves through the days as leaders. Of course we do. He is doing that. We know that he's we have the unfortunate luxury of understanding what he is dealing with, um you know, on a on a personal level. If you didn't, if you had no idea, which his crew don't, if you looked at him, you'd be like, you know, is he uh is he does he have the strength of personal character, not a leadership character, but personal character to actually challenge how he sees himself and reflect on who he is. We don't know, we don't know, and we won't ever know.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

But I just wonder when I look at him, I think, you know, I you know Yeah, and I'm just I'm thinking actually now about his relationship with his first officer, Una Chinreilly. She knows, yes, she she does know his fate. She does but he doesn't he doesn't seek her out to talk about it. It's normally her going to him, saying, Oh, Chris, come on, let's talk. Because there's one episode where his future self has come to visit him, and then he's sort of transported to a different to one of the cadets who would be in the accident. Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Oh, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Yeah, yeah, I can't I can't remember the name. Anyway, and he he has to rush out because he's overwhelmed, and Una follows him. But you know, it's only after she openly says to him, Oh, Chris, let's talk. And there's various other points as well, um, like with his relationship with Captain Battel later on in the latest season, where many unfortunate things happen to her, and he has a drink with Una, and she says, Oh, do you want to talk? And he says, Oh, not now. But actually, it's like, well, maybe if it was now, maybe you could do a bit more work on yourself. Um, although interestingly, he does he does know the role of the first officer. I mean, a quote I love that from hit, or that someone says to him is every good captain needs a first officer to tell him when he's wrong, which he said he lives by. So he does hold Una, I think she is the one person on that ship who could potentially get for him to be slightly more self-aware, but he does resist, and again, it's that holding it in. I think I need to be strong for everyone else.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Yeah, and I think you can then I think it edges that edges toward paternal leadership rather than professional command, and that is always a risk because yes, you've got an extraordinary culture, uh, extraordinary strength and depth of team um culture there, but it can distort judgment, it risks distorting judgment, it also risks um well it it it you know uh uh not just judgment, you know, it can have such a detrimental impact on decision making if if you are stepping into that paternal paternalistic view of your role. Um, and that is not leadership, that is not leadership. Protecting people is not leadership, it is just protecting people.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

No, no, exactly. I'm just thinking, are any of the other captains like that? Do they border on paternal leadership? I wouldn't say Kirk does. I mean Kirk Kirk loves his crew, but would we say he's a paternalistic leader?

SPEAKER_03 34:56

No, definitely not, definitely not Kirk is No Kirk he he definitely I think he definitely uh trusts well actually we had that we did have this conversation because he's always this gun, oh I'm gonna go do it before you. I I remember this, have us discussing this actually. There is a level of trust, but there's not I he I he's still he's still a buccaneer at heart, and it's like I'm gonna go and do this, you know. So he's definitely he's and I don't think that's driven by paternalism, that's driven by a supreme self-confidence in his own abilities. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yeah, he has that I mean he has their respect, and likewise with Picard, he's got the respect of his crew, and I he Picard does trust him. I mean, he seems to trust Riker.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

What about Sisko?

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Benjamin Sisko or Silence's very different from no no I to be honest, I haven't watched East Face Man for a long time. He he's very much wartime leadership though.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

He is, he is, absolutely, and it's sort of um very, very moral.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

I think Pike Pike has got values and morals, and those do drive a lot of his leadership. But I mean Cisco's is you know, he's all about sacrifice, being pragmatic, and I mean and he is captain of it's like a C9 is like a base, isn't it? It's not a ship, I think.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

That's right. So it's it's it's different.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yeah, so he's slightly different. Yeah, we oh yeah, he's on the list, don't you worry? He's on the list.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

He's on the list, is he? All right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

A list of 700, yes, yes, he is.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

I think so. I think, yeah, you know, he's yes, there's the 700, yeah. Uh I think no, I think probably the closest I mean Kirk and Burnham are all about they frequently become the solution. That's not paternal leadership at all. Um that's a there's a different this whole issue.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

That's a good one, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

Pike uh sorry, Picard. I think Picard is is about trust, I think he is about delegation, I think Picard is about um generating loyalty and admiration from his from of and from his crew. His intellectualism puts him above the paternal. Um he's he's more I think he's far more emotionally disconnected from his crew than say more formal, yeah. Yeah. In fact, I'd say he was probably more emotionally disconnected than Kirk and Burnham from his crew. I think he's probably the most emotionally distant.

SPEAKER_04 37:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Um so actually I think yeah, I think Pike probably is, you know, he's the one who exemplifies or demonstrates that and risks that deep emotional attachment. Um risks that moving into um you know i i it potentially impairing his objectivity. Um and I think it's something that he does need to be pulled back on, and we do see him being pulled back on it.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Yeah, definitely. I'm wondering, does he but does he attach like that because he knows his fate?

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Well, not to begin with, he doesn't know his fate to begin with, and he's still like that.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Well, I suppose he s he sort of does create emotional bonds with them. Um I'm just thinking, is do we see his emotional bonds intensify in strange new worlds versus Discovery? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Yeah, yes, yeah. Well, also in Discovery he's he knows he's interim. He's interim chief executive, you know? He's like that's I mean a fraction, a fractional C you know Yeah, I'm gonna keep this I'm gonna keep these guys alive, but I you know I'm moving on, you know. Um so yeah, I think I think also and this is kind of connected not not the not distorting his judgment, not at all, but I think that that emotional connection to the crew I think it lends itself to consensus-driven decision making a lot of the time. A lot of the time he seeks consensus, which is cool, yeah, which is fine. I'm I'm I'm you know, that's good, you've got to bring people along with you, absolutely. What that does risk is it slows down decisiveness, it slows decision making, uh, can risk operational delays. Um, you know, particularly when you think you compared it to Kirk's instinctive decisiveness, Cisco's strategic ruthlessness. I'm gonna throw another mix name into the mixture we haven't spoken about. Yeah, Janeway's Jane Way's command certainty.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Love Jane Wayne.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Yeah, Jane Way, Janeway. You know, I think if you compare it to those three in particular, Pike sometimes appears reluctant to quickly impose his authority, and I think that's because you've got this circumstance where all right, we're not friends. He never gets to the point where we're all just mates and we're all just bumbling along together. You're always aware of his authority, but the lines are spec the lines are blurred, and in then and in stable environments, that's cool, that's a strength. It's in stable environments, it's okay, but in rapidly deteriorating situations, and suddenly you have to assert your authority in your decision making, that is a that's the shock to the collective system of your leader suddenly being a completely different personality, that that can have quite a lot again long-term ramifications. Yes, it can it can achieve immediate results, but the long-term implications of of that what is perceived as this sudden you know schizophrenic change in personality because you you know you've not been that person and suddenly you are. I think that's where his balance, you know. I I spoke I sp I I I I I spoke a lot about you know about my admiration for his balance, but actually it's in that balance can tip into um I think uh yeah, I think that can tip into problems, you know, down the line.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Yeah, and it's a fine line to tread. I mean, don't they say for leaders a friendly fri a friendly face needs a friend? It's ultimately what you're you're going for, right? So no, you look at me like say it again.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

I missed I I a friendly friend is a friendly friend.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

A friendly face, not a friend.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

Right, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know what? If it's not the quote, it's a good one anyway. We're gonna use it.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Thank you. Copyright now. Um but yes, and that's a as a I think oh as a leader, that is a really fine line to tread.

SPEAKER_04 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

You want people's opinions, and I mean we talk about this a lot with Star Trek captains, you know, they don't have the expertise of everyone. He's got a science officer for a reason, he's got a pilot for a reason, they all have different skills. So, you know, he's on anything science-based, he would defer to Spock. So you have to try to really fine line between when is the right time to ask for everyone's opinions. Because I think we do see quite a few times. He'll say, like, right, what do we do, Erica, who's the pilot? You know, and he'll get everyone's opinions, but it's it's when there's a situation where that, like you said, where there is not time for that. You need to be able to maintain everyone's respect, you need to get everyone to cooperate, and you need them to understand that that was not the time for challenging.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

And I think sometimes it is it it is as easy as, or straightforward rather, I shouldn't say easy, it is as straightforward as just having that you know, in the quiet moments, in the stable periods, just saying to people, listen, we are invariably, inevitably going to come into a situation, a circumstance where I am not going to consult you.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Because leadership is about managing expectations as well. So when we're in that moment, I want you, I don't want you to think, oh, how dare he? He snapped at me, he didn't consult me, he just taught me what to do. I think if you explain to people in advance, look, when we're gonna we're gonna get into a moment, it's gonna be pretty tough. And this is true, and I'm I'm not just talking about you know deep space military situations or whatever. I'm talking about just you know, when we're working on, you know, up you know, in our own projects or whatever, in our day-to-day projects, wherever. We're up against a deadline, got to make an instant decision. I've got somebody breathing down my neck, correct X, Y, and Z. We're up against it. Money is and time is running out, resources are short-lived. I'm not gonna consult you in those moments. It's not because of you, it's because only one of us is in this position. It's me. I will be accountable for those decisions. It's not because I don't want to hear from you, it's not because I don't respect what you're saying, it's not because I don't value what you've got to give. But in those moments, I am gonna have to be the person to make that decision. It will need to be quick, it will need to be immediate, it will need to be long lasting, whatever. That's on me. And we'll come back and we'll I promise you, we'll come back and we'll talk about it to help you. You know, but I need you to understand that so preparing people and managing their expectations is. So important as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

That's such a good piece of advice as well, because I think sometimes you can just end up as a leader being really isolated because that people perceive oh he or she just decided to do that and not even ask. And I think sometimes as leaders we assume that our crew or team just know, just know that we have to make snap decisions like that and that sometimes we won't. But actually, you're right. We should just say it. It does not harm anything by saying it. I think it's the opposite the opposite.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

And I think one thing leaders are particularly guilty of, you know, we say it's lonely, leadership is lonely, you know, and I think leaders are guilty of Well, no, let me rephrase this. It's not just leaders, everybody is guilty of not wanting often to understand what leadership is about. And so I leaders are guilty of presuming either A, their teams understand. Which if you've never been in a leadership position, how are you going to understand? That's a ridiculous concept. How would you even begin to understand? Two, uh they either they they they already understand, or B, well, you know, it's not my burden to share, they're not in the role, I they don't they won't have any empathy or sympathy for me. And and it's like and I hear that a lot, and it's like, look, Chief Execs, for example, are not looking for sympathy or empathy. They're in the road, they took the gig. They do, however, would they will, however, appreciate some understanding. And I think likewise, if I'm sitting in the team, I think the team members have a responsibility to understand not the ins and outs of the job. I don't they don't need to know everything, but I do think that is a responsibility. We talk about emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence isn't just a leadership uh characteristic. We uh as team members have an obligation to appreciate that that individual is in a distinct role, it's different from my role. I don't fully understand it, I don't need to fully understand it, but I understand that they are dealing with circumstances or situations or conversations or relationships that may be stressful, maybe difficult to deal with, maybe hard to handle, may carry degrees of accountability that uh thankfully thank goodness not me dealing with that. And I just often see the tension in leadership when you see tensions in leadership, it's often because we don't have a conversation within the team about what is leadership.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

That's a really good point. And in terms of support and understanding, if it was a friend telling us about a big work decision that we would have to make, we would understand. I mean, obviously it doesn't affect us directly, but it's using the same skills to understand whether it's your friend or your boss, because it's the exact same situation, it's just a different relationship.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's just the dynamics of the relationship. So I think I think, and that goes back to the point there we we were you were saying earlier on about um you know, Pike often has this kind of unhealthy personal ownership of everything. He doesn't share with the crew as if well the crew mustn't know my burden. And it's like, well, they don't need to carry your burden, but knowing your bot is something different. Yeah, you know, that's not the same thing. So but look, I think if overall, however, overall, for me, for what it's worth, and and and I do not profess to be the same follower of Star Trek that you are, but I think for me the what really exemplifies the strength of um Pike's leadership character is is the manner in which well i in one in one version uh of um Pike's final fate. So um in the original series, there's a two-part of the menagerie, but in that story, Spock effectively commits mutiny to return Pike to Talos 4 where they create that illusionary reality reality for him so that he gets peace, freedom, and companionship. Now the reality is if you can get Spock right to commit mutiny, then you must be a good leader, a great leader.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

That's the bar. Yeah. That's it. And I think you know what? I think he f Pike feels so relevant to now we talk about leaders being a product of their time. Yes. I think we're all a bit exhausted by leaders who tend to posture or perform or be aggressive and just lack emotion. Whereas I think Pike, you know, he's emotionally competent, he's authoritative without being cruel, he's confident without putting you down, without being narcissistic. And actually, that represents sort of grounded masculinity, which I know we've talked about too much, but I think is particularly relevant in the world, especially now.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Yeah, I think so. I think so. It's interesting, yeah. Uh with with the client I'm working at the moment, we're talking about the challenges of the man, the so-called manosphere. And I I agree, I think he does, I think you're right, within the context of modern a modern context, emotional fatigue, leadership loneliness, um, burnout is it, is, you know, is is is is an epidemic that we're dealing with. Uh I I I think he is a healthier I think he represents a healthier leadership aspiration than we are than we're seeing elsewhere in uh on television uh at the moment. Absolutely 100%. Yeah. He's principled without performative morality, he's emotionally intelligent without becoming sentimental, he's authoritative without being dominant, and he's competent without the ego. And you know, that that goes going back to your point about you know what what was the phrase you learned? What was the phrase you used? Something masculinity?

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Grounded masculinity masculine.

SPEAKER_03 50:15

Grounded masculinity. I love that. I love that very much, and I think you're absolutely right. Right now, he is very much a as we reach as we're on the quarter quarter century mark of the 21st century, he is very much, I think, the what we should be looking to, absolutely 100%. So, where does he score? Wait, I mean, I think we I mean I don't think we've got a scale big enough for this.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Give him an eight.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

I give him a nine. I give him a nine.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Whoa, what Anson, I'm sorry. Wow. Nine, really.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

Oh, what's that, Anson? I'm sorry, I'm not your biggest fan, Andrew is. I I would I would I I I think if you look at the whole picture, if you look at the whole um I mean of course it's not over yet, is it? There's more. You know, we we two yeah, it's two seasons, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah, two, there's two more.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

All right, okay when they're done. So we're not we're not we haven't finished seeing that. I mean we know what it ends up eventually, but um but no, I I would struggle to go below an 8.5 if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Oh well, okay. All right, well ramp it up to an eight. Well, ramp it up to a nine then. Or I mean no, we we don't have to agree. We go through this every time. We don't have to agree.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

Ever.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Actually, no, I stick with my eights. No, I'm sticking with my eight.

SPEAKER_03 51:35

You stick with it. I'm comfortable with you. I'm comfortable. I didn't I didn't try to move you. I didn't say it was you. I don't know. So but okay, so where does he then land in other universes?

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Um Revengers. I think they would try to walk all over him. Do you imagine in the Tony Stark? Tony Stark.

SPEAKER_03 51:55

Tony Stark would try and dominate him. I think Tony Stark would fail.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Yeah, I think he would calmly he'd say a like a one-liner, a really calm one-liner that would just destroy Tony. Yeah, I think he'd get on with Cap, actually. I think Cap, I think him and Cap would have some quite nice conversations, to be honest. Because they're both quite calm. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

You know how I feel next episode, next episode we can get into Cap, but uh you know how I feel about him. But yeah, no, I I can see that. Yeah, they're they're more aligned, they're far more aligned.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Yeah, I think he'd do I think he'd do alright. It would just be a bit chaotic because I do think like Thor, I think Thor would just I don't know what Thor would think of him. I think strange spaceman and then just blast off back to Asgard. Yeah, I don't think uh I think I think they wouldn't know what to do with him.

SPEAKER_03 52:45

I plus I when I when I think about the Marvel universe uh if we think about uh guardian he's you know guardians of the galaxy. Right, it's so it's so unbelievably chaotic the world. I just don't think Pike could call I just don't think he would know where to begin. Because again, and we we spoke about this when we talk about Kirk and Picard, but Pike is still a product of a really structured system. Yeah and you put him outside of the structure, I just don't know how particularly the chaos uh in the Marvel universe.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

So do you think he would do well in like the Empire?

SPEAKER_03 53:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

But on the Empire side when we stick these lovely leaders into the Empire just because there's a bit of structure, because didn't we put Picard in the Well yeah, and we you know it's the you know they and they would just be following orders, wouldn't they?

SPEAKER_03 53:48

Uh could I don't well no, I think actually, actually, actually no Clisness, I think I can see him being leader I can see him working really well with um Leia, I think uh General Leia and you know I think I can see him I well you know uh not with I know I know I know but no it is General Leia, but you know in that context I can see him.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Yeah, I'd agree, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

As one of her captains, I could totally see him working really well in that in that context, absolutely. Uh but he's not a the thing is though, he's not a wartime captain. He establishes enterprise bitter about that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

It's really bitter they didn't send him to fight, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

Yeah, you know, he he establishes enterprise as a vessel for discovery and exploration, yeah, but not for war, you know, and so actually that's why I can't necessarily see him in the Marvel world, or I can't see him in the fight for the galaxy because yeah, you know, it's just I think he probably would fit quite well I could I could see him. Go on, where do you go on?

SPEAKER_01 54:53

What if you just see he'd be like uh a non exec for Vort in the boys? I could so see him like chairing the board of Vort Yeah in the company. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:06

I think also um I can also see him um see him as the hand of the king, actually, in uh in uh Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Yeah Yeah, actually. Not not the king, actually, yeah. I could see him admiral, yeah. In one of the versions. There's an episode where the cartoon Star Trek, have you seen that? When they travel when they Oh god, years ago. When they mix well, they mix with um Boimler, obviously called Boimler. Yes, anyway, anyway, he does become admiral. Yeah, I could see him sort of regulating the king.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

Yeah, well he's a bit like it kind of bit like Ned Stark. Or more competent Ned Stark, a more competent Ned Stark does handle the king, I think. So yeah, so I think um yeah, he's I don't think he could bring the balance to the other universes that he brings to you know to in in in in the context of both Star Trek Discovery and Brave New Wheels. I don't think I can see him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he doesn't have the structure, yeah. But there you go. But overall, I like him very much and yeah, he can stay in the leadership multi universe.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

Good, he can.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

We need to have our ranking of leaders, he's quite high up in Wonder Woman, I reckon he and Wonder Woman are probably joint joint first, I think.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

She they'd get on. Oh, do you know what we should do?

SPEAKER_03 56:27

We should do. Um we should do. Have you ever heard on uh the rest is history podcast where they have done a couple of times, they have done a history love island where they have Oh my god coupled up coupled up characters from you know, his people from history and worked out which of them would be best together. Eventually we're gonna have enough of us enough of a stable of um subject matter that we could we could do our own leadership multiverse love island.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

We could do a love country with the size of the amount of people we're measuring. I thought you were gonna say we could do our own leadership quiz. So we make people take a quiz and it will spit out, oh right, you're like Captain Pike.

SPEAKER_03 57:11

Well, you just took that to a level of geeky nerdiness that not even that I just can't cope with that.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

That's just we don't know how we do it. And if you if you got Batman, it'd be like, oh well. Batman you'd be like, oh god, Batman.

SPEAKER_03 57:24

Can't I have Anakin Skywalker instead? Right, okay, so next week, who are we doing next week?

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Oh Captain America. I know you can't wait. You cannot wait.

SPEAKER_03 57:35

Okay, well, I look forward to that one. I look forward to Captain America, and then who have we got lined up? What have we got lined up coming after that?

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Fellowship of the Ring, and then we've hopefully got our guest on to do Patner 17.

SPEAKER_03 57:47

Right, okay. I may have to see I may have a guest for Lord of the Rings actually as well. Um do that.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

I need to rewatch this god. I need to.

SPEAKER_03 57:55

Yeah, but I think and I think you know, anybody else? And yeah, I was thinking if any any of our listeners want to join us.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Yeah, any th all three of you, you can all come on.

SPEAKER_03 58:03

We can all yeah, we can just have a big geek out together. Let's do it. All right, brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Cool. Well, sign up to our newsletter, follow us on socials at leadership multiverse, and and give us a give us a like.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

Give us a like if you like listening to us, just give us a five-star rating on Apple Pods, Spotify, whatever you get in the pod, because it'll help other people find us. And you know, we just want to spread, we just want to spread the word. Um, spread the leadership love as wide as possible. So yeah, thank you. Take care.