Steve Rogers: Captain America

In this episode of Leadership Multiverse, Andrew and Ellen take on Steve Rogers, better known as Captain America, and ask whether he really deserves his reputation as one of popular culture’s clearest examples of values-based leadership under pressure.

The discussion explores his moral clarity, courage, calm crisis leadership and ability to build followership in moments of danger. It also asks harder questions about his rigidity, his difficulty with compromise, his loyalty to Bucky, the breakdown of the Avengers, and whether principled leadership can become destabilising when it leaves too little room for accountability, ambiguity and other people’s perspectives.

Along the way, Andrew and Ellen consider the Sokovia Accords, Civil War, sacrifice, emotional intelligence, operational command, and whether Steve Rogers would survive in Starfleet, Star Wars, The Boys, Game of Thrones or DC. Spoiler: Andrew remains deeply unconvinced.

A lively episode on moral leadership, wartime leadership, personal loyalty, and the difference between being worthy and being easy to work with.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Hello, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I am very good. I'm very good. Thank you. How are you?

SPEAKER_04 0:36

I am good. I am so ready for this one. I am so excited for this episode. Almost as excited. Well I actually think we're gonna have a major disagreement.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Well, I okay. Yeah. Go for it. Who are we talking about? Uh Steve Rogers. Helpful to Captain America.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

You're not his biggest fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

No, I'm no, I'm not. No, I I saw him described as one of the clearest examples in modern popular culture of values-based leadership under pressure. Well, I disagree.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

Clearly, it's done something to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

I have a real problem with Captain America. I have a real problem with Steve Rogers. So for me to be convinced that he is a high caliber quality leader is going to take some effort on your part today. I actually think Batman is a better leader. That's my opening game for you. Wow. Wow. And so I think I am biased against uh I know I am biased against uh Captain America. So I need you to I I'm looking to you to guide me and the listeners through uh this exploration as to why Captain America is is uh is a good uh capable inspirational leader. See, I can't even I can barely get the words out of my mouth. My mouth is gonna all dry. My mouth's gonna all dry. I feel like I'm spluttering the words.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Okay, well, I mean, I I just want to say I think he's a good leader. I don't think he's the best, but I I don't talk about him or feel the same vitriol that you lead.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

I do, I do, and you know, I don't really think about him until I start talking about him, and then it really builds inside me. So uh yeah, yeah, no, you I guess you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

So shall I all right? Shall I give a brief a brief bio of old Steve and then we'll go into so he was born in um 1920, he grew up during the Great Depression, and his early life was marked by poverty and adversity. Um then in 1940, as a frail and sickly young man, who we see, of course, in the first Captain America film, he volunteers over or tries to volunteer over and over again um to go into the army, but he just has a very, very long list of things wrong with him that prevent him from doing that. He regularly tries to pick fights with people who are bigger than him, which is most people, to be honest, at that point. Um, and then he goes again to try volunteer for the army, and he is visited by Dr. Abraham Erskine Erskine. Erskine um who has Erskine, who um again we see in the film, and he's got this experiment which is aimed at creating a super soldier. Um, Steve, I'll say this: Steve is picked not because of his physical caliber, if anything, he just has no physical calibre at that point, but actually we start to see from then what his values are. He's very moral. In the in um the film, we see him a grenade is chucked at troops and he jumps over it to protect them. So he's picked for those reasons. Um he's then administered with this administered with a super serum, um, which I think is actually helped developed by Howard Stark, Tony Stark's father. Um, and he is then morphed into this strapping young lad who becomes Captain America. Um and from then on he goes to I say he goes to fight Nazis. He actually doesn't initially, he's used in war bond campaigns, he's used um to kind of try get the troops um spirits up, tries to raise money, um, and then he goes on various missions with Peggy Carter, um, also known, I think, as Captain Britain in some of the comics.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, yeah, she is with a human Jack Shield. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:16

Yeah, yeah. And then there's a Marvel cartoon as well, um, where it's like an alternative reality where there is no Captain America, but there is Captain Britain. And anyway, she appears in that. Um, Captain America then goes on to rescue um Key Barnes, who is his friend, um, who has been in the army for a long time. And that's the start of him. And then towards the end of World War II, he uh is in a plane that crashes into the ice, and he's then frozen in time until decades later when he is discovered. And then at the end of Captain America, we see him paid a visit by Nick Fury. He understandably freaks out, runs outside, and he is in modern day New York City. Um, and from that point on he becomes part of the Avengers.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Great.

SPEAKER_04 6:08

Even that, even that, even that has pained you. I am sorry, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

It's like I'm playing the movies through my head, scenes of the movies through my head as you're talking, and I'm remembering all of it, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, okay, cool, great, excellent. We've all been there, Steve. We've all been super soldiers, we've all had, you know, yeah, we've all it's all happened. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Right. So I mean, shall I? I was gonna say, shall I, shall I say my piece and then you can dig into it?

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Yeah, just do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

Right. So I suppose what kind of leader is Steve Rogers? Let's say he's mission-led but human first, morally anchored, which can make him a little, well, fairly rigid, shall we say? Calm under pressure. Um, pretty exceptional, actually, at building followership, even amongst people who initially doubt him. Strategic, a systems thinker, and willing to challenge authority when the system doesn't work, which actually I think is what has somewhat uh turned me into a bit of a Captain America feeling.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Hmm. Okay. Right, okay. So I absolutely, yes, no, I absolutely um Yeah, he he I absolutely see the uh you know the moral clarity and the consistency in his um in his character. Absolutely. Um he has arguably an an uh an unusually stable uh moral compass. Uh you say you know, you really see uh that model compass um flicker. Um you know, he he he is almost I would say almost exc I think he is exclusively driven by his sense of justice, moral resistance and duty. And I understand that that you know that um that you know, driven by, you know, his his his upbringing, his background, the fact that he is, you know, uh a soldier during World War II, albeit a super soldier, you know, he I I I I totally understand that. Um I absolutely can see that he is uh calm in you know uh operational leadership in crisis. And I think uh I can I can definitely uh see how he creates you know his steadfastness that sort of generates trust in him and it creates followship because you know he followship that is generated through personal example example. He never ever ever asks anybody else to absorb the risks that he won't personally carry himself. Absolutely. Absolutely I think, however, why I've got a problem with him is not not the not the not the morality uh and the you know the sickly piety with which he wanders around the place. Um he in his holier than thou approach to life. Um it's actually I just think he is I think he is incredibly one-dimensional. That's the that's my beef I've got with him, is that and I'm not sure I agree with you that he's a systems thinker, that he's a systems leader at all. I actually don't think he sees the system. I think he is incredibly one-dimensional. He is driven, yes, he is driven by moral clarity and consistency, but it is actually moral absolutism, and it is a rigidity um to um protection and justice and moral resistance that actually I actually think that that is his both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. Um his certainty about you know i his mo the certainty of his moral compass is uh it trans transcends into inflexibility. I don't think he's an adaptable leader. I don't think he is um uh a sister I don't think he responds to the system in which he operates. And we see that time and time again. I think that's why he comes up against um I think that's one of the reasons he clashes so obviously with uh Tony Stark. Not just because they are diametrically opposed in terms of personalities, because they are, you know. I mean, good God, we know what's the yeah, you know, and Tony Stark.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Well they know it, we know it, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah, yeah, you know, and and Tony Stark does lord it over everybody with his intellectual um his intellectual superiority um and and his sheer force of personality Steve Rogers' personality He doesn't have one He doesn't have a personality He is so beige beyond uh you know throwing yourself on a grenade. I understand it. I understand, you know, protecting people, I get it, I understand it. That doesn't inspire me, it impresses me, it doesn't inspire me. I think he's so yeah, I just I'm really struggling. I really struggle with him because no he he actually isn't you know, he's not a man who's driven by vengeance, he's not a man who's driven by insecurities, he's not a man who he's not a man driven by ego, you know, in fairness to him. He doesn't have a beast of an ego at all. At all. He's not a Hulk, no, no, no, no. Thor, you know, he's not Thor, you know, Thor's got quite a cheeky little ego going on there as well, you know. And he is a god, I mean we gotta let him have exactly, exactly. Although even as even as the god of thunder, his ego still isn't as big as Tony Stark's. But um But I I just feel I am just struggling to see I just feel that all the examples when you look at him um it just feels very um simplistic. He is a very simple character. That's my that's my that's why I struggle with the assertion that he is uh uh a le a um well he's a leader. I can't deny that he's a leader because people do follow him and he leads by example and in extreme circumstances he's a f he is uh uh uh understandably somebody you know that they would that you know they want to follow. And the assault in New York in the Avengers, you know, um when he you know facing Thanos uh in Infinity War. You know, there's no denying that the chap's got uh courage, that he has got um you know leadership qualities, but I really, really, really struggle to see him anything more than a one-dimensional battlefield um leader.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

I'll so I I agree with points there. He a hundred percent struggles with things like compromise. I was actually thinking about him in relation to Pike uh last week's episode, and we said Pike is fairly amenable in terms of if someone disagrees with him, he'd open to it and he'll potentially change his opinion. Because we said Pike's fairly moral as well. Steve Rogers, he he would not do that. Um I think he's he's got his values, uh, but he defends things in terms of oh, it's black and white, it's right or wrong. And I think we I think when we did Wonder Woman, it was so long ago when we did Wonder Woman now, we said she is she was similar, but not as not as rigid because he because Steve Rogers is like, oh, you've got the good guys, you've got the bad guys. Sort of. Actually, that's not true. Sorry, I've said something that isn't that's not true because Bucky Bucky is a bad guy.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

A good guy. He's a bad guy.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

He's a grey guy, he's he's in the middle, isn't he? It's not like the name with him, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:42

Well, he is the grey wolf, is that what they call him?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Something they've got a name for him.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Um but when you say Steve Rogers is beige, I would actually say his relationship with Bucky is what makes him not beige. His loyalty to Bucky causes rifts, you know. He is whilst he has his own morals, I would say he is fairly he's morally absolute in terms of what he believes in and what is what he believes in. But actually, he withholds information from Tony Stark. He doesn't tell Tony that Bucky's the one who killed his parents. You know, that's not particularly uh that's not very moral. That is when that's what creates part one of the the many, many fractures that we see within the Avengers. Um in terms of being a systems thinker, I was thinking of it in terms of being a wartime, he's a very good wartime strategist. I mean, you mentioned the Battle of New York, and I think a lot of people see him as the guy with the shield, the big strong guy with the shield. But actually, in the Battle of New York and the battle in Endgame, we see him be really tactical. He's looking around, assessing everything, he gives orders to the New York cop who initially is like, why would I listen to you? And then he sees, you know, he sees him destroy something and then just repeats back what Roger said. Um, he coordinates people. He understands that every he understands and has emotional intelligence, I think, when dealing with the Avengers. He knows what Hulk is like. He knows he'll say, Hulk, smash. Because that's how you communicate with Hulk. He will not communicate that way with everyone. He communicates with all the Avengers very differently. And I suppose to clarify, just for listeners, when we talk about systems thinkers, that's people who look at problems and they don't look at them one-dimensionally, they look at how they how it links together patterns, systems, communication, all those sorts of it's looking at everything as a whole.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah, causes and effects and etc. etc. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, the whole piece of the system. Yes. And as a piece of the system, the system that is Avengers, if if if it wasn't for Black Widow, Avengers would be blown sky high because of Steve Rogers. In exactly the same way it would be blown sky high by Tony Stark. Those two, he is not a cohesive leader. He doesn't what I mean by that is he does he's on the again, as an operational commander, I get it. But you need immediacy, you need ex you know, exemplary um strength of character around you know, being calm and yes, strategic in in in the moment. But he is uh alongside Tony Spot Dark, the primary reason that the this team implodes or explodes because you know, so he he doesn't create cohesion, he does the complete opposite.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Yeah, I I would ag so I would yeah, I would agree in terms of the rift in civil war when they're having the argument about whether they should be regulated or not. But yeah, but you see, I I I think that's quite noble of him because that's what he that's what he stands for.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

So he doesn't stand as a leader then, he doesn't stand for his team. He stands for moral justice, he stands for protection of a principle rather than demonstrating flexibility and adaptability and responsiveness to circumstances. He saw absolute it's that moral absolutism, which just in the rigidity that even when he has valid concerns, I mean his concerns around the whole Sokovia Accords are valid. They're valid, it's fair. Yes, yeah, and actually it is personal tension between him and Tony Stark that over overflows and and blinds everybody around this situation. Because actually I think if they were all on the same page, we would never have had civil war. Um but but I think um I think you know in that scenario, even though his concerns were valid, instead of um instead of demonstrating a maturity, emotional intelligence, uh uh self-awareness but awareness of others, his his certainty around his position generates so much inflexibility that equal to Tony Stark. And I you know, I I I see I mean you know, and we did not rate Tony Stark particularly highly, you know, our first episode.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

No, we did not. We were fairly scathing.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

I put him squarely on the same on on a par with him. And I think that's probably I mean, you know, that's probably why the writers have done that, you know, because it creates that, you know, entertaining intentions. But if you look at uh as a team member, my god, it'd be an absolute nightmare working with him. An absolute nightmare.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Yeah, but whilst we say he doesn't compromise, and on the most for the most part he does not, he does come back, they do reunite in Infinity War. They do come back, so there must and I I actually think possibly Tony ring him first, I think. But but uh they both they both they both have had to bury the hatchet, sort of, and put their feelings behind them. I am not disagreeing with you, by the way. I I agree that they are both they are both stubborn, but I and it takes a long time, but they they do semi-get over it. Actually, I've got I have a quote here, it's not long at all. It was said by Peggy Carter originally, but I think in the comics it's Captain America, and this summarizes him completely. Oh sorry, compromise where you can, where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right, even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say, No, you move. Which I think sums him up quite well. But on and on the face of it though, I would agree with that quote. If you believe something is right, why should you? Move from that.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yes, and you know and and in terms of moral leadership in terms of moral leadership, then you can't uh you can't yeah, you can't touch him. You can't touch him for moral leadership, absolutely. But that's that's still quite a one-dimensional perspective of the world, isn't it? Because actually, you know, I agree, just because everyone's doing something d doesn't mean it's the right thing to be doing. Absolutely. I agree, I agree 100%, and I've written articles around that piece just because just because everybody's doing the same thing, doesn't mean they're all doing it right, and then it's the correct thing to do. Absolutely, and that does take a strength of character, it does take you know a resolution, um uh to and courage to to stand your ground, but in an Avengers context, at what cost?

SPEAKER_04 23:00

Yeah, and I suppose if we were to translate that to the workplace, if you've got a board or a a team, you blow everything up realistically, yeah. And that's what you want to avoid. I suppose if you totally disagreed with what was happening and you weren't being listened to, you would resign, I guess, which is kind of semi what happened. I know it was more of a split in half um in the Avengers, but I guess ultimately that's what happened. He said, Well, I don't like this, so I'm not I'm not going to engage with it anymore. Except obviously that had the chain reaction of the Avengers basically splitting in two for several years.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he he he really struggles to acknowledge legitimate concerns that are on the other side of an arg of the argument. He really, really, because he is so you know, because again, compromise doesn't necessarily mean you know it compromise isn't about victory and loss, it is about solutions, it is about and it doesn't it's not always middle ground. Sometimes you can still you can still um you know achieve your objective but by a different route. But actually, I think um you know his his habitual his habit rather of always framing issues primarily through his personal conscience um you know that works really well um if it's just you know if it's me, myself and I, that's absolutely fine, but I do not think I do not think that he uh that you know he his principled autonomy actually has such a destabilizing uh influence on the Avengers. Which is ironic and sad because actually, you know, and to give him credit, you know, teams do gravitate towards people who reduce uncertainty. And as an operational commander, he does that. He remains calm, he simplifies priorities in the moment of crises, he delegates clearly, as you said, you know, Stark, take the north, thaw, work on the portal, hulk, smash, you know, he's quite clear, succinct. Um, you know, he sees in those moments the whole field and he makes quick decisions without panic. You know, in even characters with much, much stronger egos, and I think, you know, uh uh Tony Stark, you know, as I'm thinking of primarily here, you know, they they they fall into alignment around him in those moments. They do, they do, and so you can't and I could not I would not want to discredit him for for you know for the strength of leadership that he demonstrates in those moments of crises. But but if we're talking about, you know, the the Avengers exist not just in the moment of battle, and in fact they exist more often than not, they exist not in the moment of crises, and that is where leadership really, really uh pays dividends. It's not we talk about you know because those moments of crises are so few and far between relative to the moments of where you should where cohesion really matters, and and in those moments he doesn't he doesn't in uh for me he erodes trust he fractures those alliances and you know as an institution the Avengers just breaks down, they effectively collapse, and I think it's one of the uh I think it's one of you know MCU's strongest demonstrations, in fact, I would say probably not just MCU's, I think if I think broader and the other leadership multiverses, I think it's one of the greatest demonstrations of where unresolved personal loyalties and um uh uh destabilize a leadership system, not just personal loyalties, actually um yeah, I'm gonna say one dimensional leadership character destabilizes leadership systems.

SPEAKER_04 27:42

That's well, I would agree with you I was gonna say I would agree with you in terms of him um doing well on the battlefield. I mean, that's what he's that's really that's what he's built for. Well, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

I mean, yeah, I mean he's a lives are absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can't fault him for that.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

I mean he says, Oh, we we don't trade lives. And you know, I think let's say if if say Tony Stark was about to be killed, he would jump in there and save him because he's saving a life. That's what you do. He's built for war. Whereas when you've got the discussions about the Sokovia chords, and it's more of a philosophical take, that's where morals can or yeah, morals and opinions can become more heated in a way, because you've got time to think, you've got time to argue with people, you've not got to make those split-second decisions like you do on the battlefield to save lives.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Yes. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Do you think he do you sorry, no, no, go on, go on.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Well, no, go on, it's cool. It's cool. No, uh go go for it.

SPEAKER_04 28:53

Do you think he's old fashioned?

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he is absolutely a product of um well of of 1930s, 1940s. Um actually, you know, if you think about when you know that how that character evolved when he was written, he he very much reflects um a a leadership concept. Uh understandably, understandably, you know, that type of leadership literally wins wars, you know, um, you know, or did, you know, back in the mid-20th century. He he absolutely um but I think uh but although interestingly, you know, what I was gonna say is his relationship with power uh is positive, I think, you know. Uh what you know, one of the most interesting things about them is that he doesn't seek power, influence, leadership for status or for dominance or for recognition. Yeah he seeks responsibility, and you know, that is a you know that is a rare distinction because like we say, many, many characters in all the different uh multiverses are driven by maybe you know all sorts of complexities, you know, guilt, ego, vengeance, insecurity, legacy. You know, he is driven by that sense of um response or sense of duty and responsibility. Arguably that makes him psychologically, it makes him quite a stable leader in that sense, you know, and again, it can't um you you know you you can't um you can't you can't fault that and actually I think it explains you know that that you know what it it does explain that stability, I suppose is one of the one of the characteristics that generates a trust in him amongst the Avengers and amongst others who follow him. And in the fact that um, you know, in in Endgame it's quite symbolic that uh you know he's able to pick Thor's hammer up. That's quite uh that's quite a symbolic sort of um indication of his authority. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So um But I think yeah, I think he I yeah, like I said, I don't agree that he's a systems thinker, but I do bec I do understand and do recognise that he believes systems matter but I but he believes that values matter more. And that I think s we see him moving from you know, early on, quite quite I think quite quite a good demonstration of collaborative leadership when the Avengers are in that forming and storming phase, you know. Um he's quite collaborative, but then but then and this is what tips us into civil war, is he le he moves towards sort of protective secrecy. I think because he can't you know because of this um this sense of responsibility and duty, I think he internalizes that a lot. He carries that burden quietly. He very much then you see him sort of going down this this path of people are put onto a what you need to know um sort of uh uh relationship, and then that creates this subtle paternalism, I think. I think he demonstrates a uh in fact I think it I think it's less subtle as time goes on. And he like I say he moves from this collaborative leadership towards this sort of this this kind of protective secrecy, you know. He hides information, he acts independently, he does make unilateral judgment calls, and and the irony is you know, the guy who distrusts you know, the the man who distrusts unaccountable systems, the Sokovia Accords being the kind of indication of that, he actually becomes unaccountable himself as a result.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Or he well, that's the debate though, or he wants to protect um the Avengers as a private organization, not be unaccountable, but not be accountable to the wrong people, because as they say in civil war, everyone has an agenda.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Indeed. But I mean they do.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

I would I would agree with you though, in terms of the sort of taking the personal responsibility to heart, and he d he 100% has tendencies towards being a martyr, absolutely. So what happens with Bucky, even with Stakovia, I don't think he's comfortable with what's happened. I don't think he would change anything with the Avengers split, but I don't think it sits well with him. So the snap. I mean, at the beginning of Endgame, you know, he runs that sort of the group.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Yeah, support group work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

Yeah, exactly. And like you say, it's almost a bit of a bit paternalistic, but that's what happens when you've got these leaders who are very moral, they've got very, very high integrity, they make decisions like hiding information because that's what they think is right, and they almost become emotionally isolated because he thinks I must carry the burden because I am the one responsible.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Which isn't a healthy way to be a leader.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

No, no, not at all, not at all. No, no, I think he he very much picks and chooses his good le his good moments for showing leadership qualities, and it depends who he's surrounded by. I mean, we see when um at the beginning of civil war when Wanda, when you know Wanda Maximoff, she sort of throws the the guy into a building and makes him explode and the building falls down at the very beginning, you know. Then and then she's on sort of how to rest. She's on how to rest.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:11

And then Steve goes in to talk to her and she says, Oh, it was all my fault. And he says, No, it wasn't. Actually, that's a and he says, No, it wasn't. I should have noticed you had a bomb vest on. That's show he's showing a lot of empathy in that moment. He's showing emotional intelligence, he's also taking some accountability, and and the the flip side of that is I don't think he would behave that way with someone like Saw or Tony Stark. If Tony Stark felt bad about something, I don't know if Steve Rogers would go and say, Oh, it's okay, Tony, it was my fault too.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

No, I don't think you would. I think he does let personal, there's a personal, an obvious personal tension there. That um because actually, you know, I think, you know, I do understand, I do understand the thing that I don't want to you can't blame the guy for how he you know his loyalty to Bucky. I understand it. I understand that is a completely in my it is a legitimate emotional um response. He loves his friend, he doesn't he wants to protect his friend. I understand that. And I you can't blame I don't blame him at all for that. But but it it compromises his broader judgment. You know, he withholds that critical information from Tony Stark. Um like I say, it's completely understandable emotionally, but leadership wise, it's utterly catastrophic. It's utterly catastrophic. And I think I think it does demonstrate, like you've just demonstrated, he picks and chooses. He is able, he is able to pick and choose when he wants to capitalise on his emotional connections.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

Yeah.

unknown 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

That that's quite sinister. That's quite sinister. If I can just if I can if if I'm again I I'm on I'm on the fence, I'm not even I'm on the fence about whether he has really got any depth in terms of emotional intelligence. However, if I accept that he does he is emotionally intelligent, that is deeply worrying. That he is so self-aware and in control of his emotions that he then can choose when to capitalize on them or not. That is and I don't think that yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_04 37:46

Well, I was gonna say, and well, we don't we don't know yet what's going to happen in doomsday, but the fact that he travelled back in time when he was returning all the stones at the end of Endgame, he travels back in time to live with Peggy, marry Peggy, have a life with her, travel back, which I think it's being hinted towards that that has had catastrophic implications for the multiverse, all because of his personal feelings towards being with Peggy. He has put the universe at risk. And I mean, there's leaders who have had those sorts of opportunities. There's an episode of Star Trek where Captain Kirk could change the future by stopping the woman he loves in an episode dying, but he doesn't because he knows if he doesn't do that, if he doesn't allow her to die, there will be no Starfleet, there will be no wars, but there will be no future. So he puts the future and the universe ahead of his own personal feelings. Map doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Compared to Pike last week.

SPEAKER_04 39:01

Well, quite quite, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Yeah. And it's interesting because that whole personal sacrifice piece is a really, really strong um thread amongst, you know, uh through through through Captain America's story, Steve Rogers' story particularly, more than Captain America, Steve Rogers' story, it is about personal sacrifice until that until that moment where, as you say, you know, he then opts for his own happiness. But I don't equate leadership with personal sacrifice. Self-care is important, but not personal sacrifice.

SPEAKER_04 39:47

So when Tony Stark puts on uh Thanos' gauntlet and dies to save the world, yeah, is that is that personal sacrifice? Is that what what is what where is that on the scale? Because that to me, he's doing the opposite of what Steve Rogers has done when Steve went back in time and lived with Peggy. He put his personal desires, relationships above everything else. Whereas actually, the way it ends for Tony Stark, he has done the opposite. Is that leadership? What Tony did? Is that personal sacrifice? Where is that on the scale?

SPEAKER_00 40:33

No, it's not leadership, is it? It's not leadership, it's just sacrifice.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

And it's for a good cause.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

It's for it's yeah, it's just sacrificing.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

There's no denying that it's for a good reason. I mean, absolutely, I'm not saying you know, I'm not saying it's a it's a it's a pointless gesture, far from it. I'm not saying that you know sacrifice isn't pointless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's not but it's interesting that there's this sort of equation that um that somehow sacrifice equates to strength of leadership. I don't think it does at all.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Sacrifice actually is quite selfish, potentially, you know, if you think about the wider system, you know. It's uh you know, it can I I don't think the two are natural bedfellows, leadership and sacrifice.

SPEAKER_04 41:19

I don't really oh no, no, nothing. Um I don't know, I've only just thought about it.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Hmm. Something for something for the listeners to reflect upon me.

SPEAKER_04 41:36

So how dare I ask? How many or few or into the negative points would you give Steve Rogers?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Three.

SPEAKER_04 41:53

Oh, that many.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Two point nine.

SPEAKER_04 42:04

Five and a half.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Fair enough. Fair enough. I mean he is a leader, you can't deny he is a leader. I just you know, and it is a leadership quality.

SPEAKER_04 42:17

In my view, he has he can. He has he shows good leadership qualities. That's not to say I disagree with any of your criticisms, because I don't, and I you know, but then we we don't want do we want our leaders to be perfect?

SPEAKER_01 42:33

No, but I'd like them to be more than one dimensional.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

People are fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

People are complex, people are complex, leadership is complex. Steve Rogers is not complex at all. At all. There's no layer of there's no depth to him, in my opinion. There is no depth to that character at all. And it shows, because there's no depth to his leadership. That's my summing up. Where would he would he would he would he s survive and thrive in Starfleet? I think he might actually, because Starfleet is the structure that's you know gives the the structure that um the system that that you know that he that he respects.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

Well, until he doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Until he doesn't respect it. Until he doesn't respect it, and then it all goes patient.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Yeah. Star Wars, I I think he would love the rebels in terms of moral absolutism against the Empire. Yeah, absolutely he would love that that aspect of it, but where would he I don't think there's a natural place for him to fit in terms of role.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

You know, I mean you see I mean the tensions that he currently has that or currently that he has with Tony Stark, can you I mean they would be Different personal different individuals, but can you imagine Steve Rogers and Han Solo? They would just be absolutely I can't even see Steve Rogers. I mean I Yeah, I maybe with maybe he would imagine.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

Oh actually.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

In fact, I think he'd be a really, really good bounty hunter. He'd be a r because he'd be capturing the bad guys and he would just be all very, you know.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

You know what? He would actually, yeah. He'd have Grogu and he'd think, oh, I can't give this little green guy, I must save the little green guy, and then go off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Yeah. Yeah. I think he'd be a really good bounty hunter in in in uh in Star Wars. Yeah, yeah. Because it's just black and white. It's just black and white. You know they're doing a job. Just do it. Uh beyond that uh boys. No. Well, he'd be one of the soups anyway.

SPEAKER_04 45:15

He'd be one of the soups that uh Well, I was gonna say he would be a soup, yeah. Yeah, no, he'd be a soup, but either uh might give him structure though. We Game of Thrones, you'd stick him on the wall, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 45:31

They're all on the wall. Honestly, the wall is getting busier and busier, the wall, you know. Um yeah. I I can't see him as a character and uh DC. No.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

If I see him as well, he'd clash with Batman, I think. Him and Batman would because I see Batman as very similar to Tony Stark. Batman is a Tony Stark with inferior leadership skills, in in my view.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Um, completely, completely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

So I think they clash. He might like Superman, even Superman might get on.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

I think even Superman's model compass wavers more than Captain America, honestly. I think Superman has more humanity than Captain America. Um Wow. There you go. But they're all red, white, and blue, so they probably would get on really well, yeah. Yeah.

unknown 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

I I I as a character, I actually as a character and as a leader, I can't see him really, and other than being a bounty hunter uh in Star Wars, I can't see him as a character thriving in any other environment. He's a man of his time, he's a man of his universe, that's it.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

Yeah. He is a war very much a war a wartime character.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Um, yes, which is true of Wonder Woman.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Yeah, that's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

But she evolves. Well, she's an extra. She evolves, and she's a tremendous leader, absolutely. She was one of our most one of our highest scoring, wasn't she?

SPEAKER_04 47:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh actually one of our most popular episodes as well, interestingly. And she actually she can deal with Bruce Wayne and and Clark Kent and Superman. She can deal with these difficult characters and still get on with them.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

In the same way Black Widow does.

SPEAKER_04 47:21

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, good parallel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:28

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Right. So next. You didn't show just for a second. You didn't move you didn't move my you didn't move the the the the compass at all on that one for me. In fact, I think I might even dislike him more than I did at the start. But I've got it off my chest, so that's a good one.

SPEAKER_04 47:46

I should agree. You did. And and you know what? You weren't you weren't a hundred percent scathing about him. You did acknowledge some of his non-flaws, let's say.

unknown 47:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Yep. There you go. Who are we doing next?

SPEAKER_04 48:01

So yes. Well, I think it's the fellowship. The fellowship of the ring, or that's not next.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

I thought we were going to be able to do that. Or get a guess to that. I thought you wanted to watch like all of the all of the directors. Oh my god, I all of the directors' cuts of everything that go on for 25,000 hours.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

Yeah, well, the fellowship of the ring, the non-directors cut is three hours forty minutes. I'm not quite sure. No. Oh my god. I know. I think I could read the books faster to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

So how did he manage to eke out another 40 minutes of it? Oh my god. It's like another 20%. Oh no, it's it's um Daenerys Tagerian.

SPEAKER_04 48:46

Oh, Daenerys, yes. Oh, she will be a good one.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

I'm looking forward to going back to uh Westeros um or or you know Game of Thrones other than you know it'd be good to kind of uh because she's not in Westeros, but you know what I mean. I'm looking forward to going back to the first one. Well, she's in the universe. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:04

Yeah, no, same. Awesome. Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Excellent. If you love the podcast, give us a five-star rating um on Apple Pods, Spotify, uh, YouTube, whatever you get your pods, we're on everything. Um, it helps other it helps potential listeners find us and it lets us know that you're listening and you're enjoying it. And you know, that's important because it's nice to know that we're not just speaking into the universe.

SPEAKER_04 49:30

Exactly. We've also got a newsletter, so just search on Substack and we will very soon have a website. God help the internet when I when I when I design the website.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

It's like your super webmaster. They'll be talking about you. They'll be like, yeah, she was of her time.

SPEAKER_04 50:01

Catch you on the flip side.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

See you later on.