Daenerys Targaryen: The Mother of Dragons

This week Andrew and Ellen enter Westeros to examine Daenerys Targaryen: liberator, revolutionary, symbol-maker, and ultimately a deeply dangerous leader.

They explore her journey from vulnerable exile to Mother of Dragons, asking when moral clarity becomes absolutism, when vision turns into destiny, and why charisma without accountability can become catastrophic. Along the way, they discuss trauma, founder syndrome, symbolic leadership, emotional volatility, weak systems, poor succession, and why “breaking the wheel” is not much use if you replace it with fire.

A fascinating, conflicted and occasionally scorching leadership case study. Literally.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Hello. How are we?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Oh, I am it's hot. I am so I am so hot. Oh, we record We're recording this in the middle of, you know, one of our British heat waves, and it's about 35 degrees in the shade at the moment. And what's that? 90 for our US listeners, that's like 96, 97 in the shade. And none of us have air conditioning, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

And fans that are just so pathetic that they're not even worth having on.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

I know. I know. It's like it's like it's as hot. We've I'm I'm segueing here. It's like it's as hot as a dragon's den. Oh, eh?

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Oh, I was thinking it would be nice to be on the wall right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Oh, it would it would be nice to be on the wall. Uh, but um but the person uh actually no, the person we're talking about does go to the wall, but only visits the wall. She does go everywhere, doesn't she? Who are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Daenerys Targaryen.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

This is our second. Is this yes, this is our second game of it? Yes, yes, yes. And what what a di uh divisive uh subject um the the mother of dragons uh proves to be, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Gosh, yeah, I mean she is every she goes through like being every leadership archetype there is, kind of. I was trying to think, is she a good leader, or I know you don't talk about bad leaders, but I was like, well, briefly, she's a bit of everything as the leader.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

It is it is incredible when you think about how her her her story arc, her character arc, which goes from being quite you know, her leadership uh uh arc reflects you can see it mid her in like a double rainbow, you know, as she develops and grows and grows in confidence and stature. Uh she goes from being this vulnerable, I would say victim. I mean she is a victim of quite brutal domestic violence um, you know, from her brother through to being strong, uh inspirational leader through to well, through to uh like almost authoritarian kind of authoritarian dionic um uncontrolled style, yeah. Yeah, uncontrolled. So her whole character, her whole leadership um journey very much mirrors that which is fascinating because I never really thought about it until you know in that in his context until I've been preparing for today. But yeah, yeah, what do you think of her? What do you think of her? I have such mixed feelings, I have such mixed views of her.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah, I no same. I mean, she kind of it's funny, she's probably one of the only ones who I could compare to every single one of our other episodes. The good, the bad. She reminds me of Anakin, she reminds me at times of Iron Man, of Captain America, sometimes Pike, even in terms of kind of being moral. So she I mean, I suppose so she's visionary, she's compassionate, she's massively traumatized, she can be charismatic, and she's dangerous, really dangerous towards the end. And I think all those nice traits eventually go to her head.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Oh I yeah, that's an understatement. That's an understatement. Yeah. Do we have a backstory for her? I get so I get so confused with the backstory around who is who um on on her on her family tree.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Um well, I've got a few sentences. She grew up poor um and um abused. Her parents died when she was very young, um, and she's been I don't know if she's brought up by her brother, but we see in the first couple of episodes that her and her brother are very close. The Targaryens, much like everyone else in Game of Thrones, are they not sort of incestuous as well?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Is she I think there's definitely there's definitely a hint of that, isn't there? There's definitely I think at this yes, there's very much a hint. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Um so from one of the more screwed up family lines in Game of Thrones, um, then obviously her brother dies, she goes off with Jason Momoa. Fair warning, by the way, and I don't remember anyone's names. All right, okay. Well that's Drogo. Carl Carl Drogo, is that the thing?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yes, right, yeah, Kal Drogo, and she becomes his Khaleesi. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Oh yes, of course, it's Khaleesi. And she gets the three dragon eggs that she sort of oversees when they hatch, and she then becomes the mother of dragons, and she believes she is the is it the ch is she the chosen one, or she is the one to bring about change in the realm, which to be honest, I think that belief is the start of her downfall.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yes. Yes. Yes. She she succumbs to the madness of her ancestors, I think, is uh is a fair way of is a fair way of of looking at it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, yeah. She thinks she's meant to change the world, which is a le I mean it's a quite powerful statement as a leader. If you stand up and say, Hey, I'm here to change the world. And she's she starts off really compelling because she's got that vision. She is so convinced. And at the start, she stands up for the little guy. She when she goes in, she liberates people at first. That is how it is sold. Like the unsullied, for example. She liberates the unsullied.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah. Yeah, I think I think her her shes, she she goes from she goes from the timidity and vulnerability, um, um uh and and and threat and violence of being the youngest sister um of in the royal uh line to then yeah, she she I think you know she becomes this visionary and she yes, she very much becomes, you know, I think her strongest early leadership asset um is her very clear sense of justice, justice around social justice, her moral clarity and purpose is is you know is ex is I was gonna say is extreme, and and I don't mean that in a bad way, you know. She has absolute clarity of conviction um around you know what her vision now s at the very what we well I suppose hindsight is always 2020, and I suppose by the time you get to see Nate you appreciate that actually what that what that vision at the very center of that vision is her having all-encompassing power. But but you don't know that, you know, you don't know that at the time. She is much more, you know, she's and I think you know, and the experiences that she suffers, um, uh particularly as she goes into, you know, um, you know, when she marries, or you know, when she yeah, well, yeah, when she marries, you know, Drogo. Uh it's quite uh hot hostile is is an understatement, but she demonstrates a strength of character, um, and a strength of leadership, particularly when he then becomes um when he because he ha what what is the I forget the accident that he has and they abandon them all, don't they? They abandon him and they abandon her, and you know, she then demonstrates this depth of before he dies, she demonstrates this kind of depth of of character and everything. So this resolve that is really sort of fundamental to her success, you know, as as just her success anyway, but her success as a leader, she never really ever falters, you know, she never falters from her vision in that sense.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah, true actually. No, that is that is true, but the road to hell and all that is paved with good intentions, is it not?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Wow, in terms of yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

I mean, she's quite attra- I mean, I I would describe her as being quite revolutionary in terms of like with rev like if you look at history with revolutions, they're all well or most start with very good intentions, you know, people might be oppressed, and you get these revolutionary leaders, they fight the revolution, they win, and then look what happens.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Well, I think like all good Yeah, I think like all good revolutionary, and I agree, all good, but like all good revolutionary leaders, she knows how to use theatre brilliantly. Oh, she absolutely knows how to use theatre. In uh, you know, if we think um in the episode uh and now his watch is ended, you know, she stays it she stages the Astapor reversal perfectly. You know, the dragon, the Valerian reveal, the unsullied liberation, the d the destruction of the is it the Kras the Krasnes? I can't remember it's the Krasnis, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's all of it is you know she continually shows this master class in timing, in symbolism, um cleverly exercising power, but never ever done in a well until at the very last, as I say, until the madness takes over takes over at her. Her power is never exercised really but uh in in a Game of Thrones context, brutally but without reason. Yes, she can be brutal, but it's always a kind of um there's always a rationale behind it. Whereas you see some brutality in Game of Thrones, and you just I mean, you know, Joffrey, when he's gonna say Lannisters. Yeah, you know, yeah, the Lannisters more more generally, actually, the Lannisters, they just I think there's an element of enjoying the brutality that comes with being a Lannister. Um Tyrion is the exception, but uh yeah, you know, I think I think I think she understands theatre. She understands and I think that's where symbolic leadership is, you know, she that timing and symbolism of theatre means that she really really understands um symbolic leadership. So when she frees the people of Junkai, you know, they hail her as the mother, as their mother, you know, that shows her ability to embody hope in people, not just to issue commands of people. And I think her ability, uh and this is when we first see this, uh, you know, we first see this with the unsullied, she creates emotional followership, which is very, very different from obedient followership.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

And I would say that word emotion that contributes to her downfall, she gets too emotional about things. I think she manages to start off having some distance between emotion leadership. I mean, given everything she's been through, you think that she would attach emotion to everything she does. But as time goes on, as she loses people, she loses Jorah Mormon, she loses, is it Miss Miss Sandre? Is that her name? Miss Andre the one.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Her right hand, yeah, when she when they're yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Um, and I think by that time she's got no trust, sure she starts to doubt people, and it's by then that she sees people questioning her as disloyalty, people challenging her, and she's she starts to not like that, and I think she's got a bit of Messiah syndrome as well. So when these people are hailing her as their mother, that's not actually doing great things for her psyche because it's just going to her head.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Well, I mean, and and in fairness, I think if I was able to walk out of a fire with three baby dragons, um I'd probably have a bit of a messiah complex as well. Uh, you know, I think I think her messiah complex is probably well owned uh in that sense, you know. I think she'll I think she can but I mean you're right. It is that that that yeah, no, you um yeah, her messiah complex. I think she's I think she's at her very, very best when her power serves as moral purpose. So free in the unsullied, uh and then latterly when she's opposing slavery, um, you know, that that that gives her leadership, real ethical, you know, moral credibility. People follow her because she appears to stand for something that is much, much bigger than herself. But she's at her very, very worst when moral purpose is entwined with her personal destiny. So, you know, and then it becomes um, you know, so in in the episode The Bells, for example, she no longer frames power as service, um, she frames it as necessity because only she can create the better world. That's the Messiah Complex you're talking about. Her leadership then becomes dangerous. It doesn't become leadership anymore, it becomes danger.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, and I mean some of that the moral high ground, the messiah complex, does sort of bleed into difficult decisions. This is what makes her a really interesting character. So um, I can't remember what episode it's in, but one of her dragons kills a child in is it me reen? Yeah, mm-hmm and she is she is openly devastated, and that's when she locks up um to the dragons underneath the city. So she does recognize things like accountability, um, actions have consequences, and that in itself is quite um, you know, given given her dragons are her children, ultimately, and her weapons, it takes quite a lot to recognise that because that's a sacrifice on her part. So she does, she seems to pick and choose, uh less so as time goes on, but she does she does recognise the kind of good from bad, even when it costs her.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Yes, yes, yeah, no, that's true. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

I do agree sometimes. She's such a confusing leader.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Oh, she is she is so confusing, she is so confused and confusing. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think she confuses, I think it's probably most obviously demonstrated she confuses liberation with lib. She confuses liberation with loyalty. She frees people. Yes. Then she expects their loyalty. You know, liberation, absolutely freeing the unsullied. I mean the thing is, it's really good because it when well when she first, you know, she frees the unsullied and she says, follow me or don't follow me. She gives them the choice. She says, if you want to follow me, you can follow me. I'll I'll I'll really appreciate that. And they do. They do follow her, they choose to follow her, she doesn't have to command their loyalty. But then latterly, you know, instead of using liberation to create agency, I think she then starts to interpret liberation as permanent indebtedness and therefore must be loyalty to her. We should forever more be grateful to our queen. And she cannot get her head around. She simply cannot get her head around um how how scary uh and frightening she is to to people. I think I think if you think about uh you know when she appears to the Westerossi people. Now, okay, the Lannisters are are batshit mental, that we know that, and the West people of West Ross know that. But she rocks up as the great liberator. All they see is oh my god, dragons, destruction, fire, and sh she just can't she cannot get her head round that she appears to be scary to people, and and I I think that really demonstrates that she actually doesn't have very much self-awareness, never mind awareness of other people.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah, no, it's exactly that. And again, I think she gets worse as time goes on, because you would think as she grew up with she grew up as an orphan, abused, etc. You would just expect that in those situations she would sort of take with her some awareness of of politics, of strategy, of other people's feelings, of perceptions, and she just seems to lose it as she goes on and frees more people. It's funny, I was I was thinking about the comparison between her and Princess Leia because I said that I think of Daenerys as being a sort of revolutionary leader, whereas Leia is more of a rebellion leader, and I was like, Oh, actually, they're really similar, you know, but they're not. Leia manages to come complementalize her emotions so well. I think we talked in the one of the episodes about you know, after Alderon um is blown up, she's their comforting Luke because his mentor died.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Oh, that's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Where is it?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

One of the many moments that uh Leia is having to put her put her own emotional feelings on on the back burner because of poor old Luke. Uh-huh. Sorry, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

But when Daenerys suffers That's my point. But when Daenerys suffers, the world shakes because her grief just it takes over her strategy, it takes over her policies, the governance of things. She unleashes her dragons as weapons. You know, she's incredibly volatile. She's fine until she's not, which is one of the scariest types of leaders.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah, I mean, they they to say that they tiptoe around her is an understatement. Um, particularly because the thing is, I suppose the thing is, she's really, really good, right? She's really good at attracting talent. Now and I I I and I suppose this is I I'm saying this with a you know, take this with a pinch of salt, because I think also circumstances drive people toward her, other circumstances across, you know, uh Westeros, uh particularly West Ross, but also, you know, um in the north, you know, it drives people toward her. But actually, when you think about you know um the people who who end up following her and serving her, you know, Tyrion, uh Baristan, Grey Worm, uh Jon Snow, Latterly, uh Spider, you know, they're all um they all are uh you know talented in in different ways, talented, strong um characters who bring you know who who who and she surrounds herself with a really uh um effective and efficient leadership team for want of a better you know one of a better phrase, you know. She you know she's not you know one of you know she's got a senior leadership team there of of complementary skills and talents, and and and she's really really you know really good at uh drawing that talent and pulling out like I say some are drawn by loyalty, some by belief, some by political calculation. But either way, she builds a coalition across cultures and classes, which is you know phenomenal, phenomenal to be able to do that. But She's she's well she's really really good at forming arguably quite good at storming she is appalling at norming. She is useless at putting together institutional or creating institutions or an institutional leadership. She can overthrow unjust systems. She absolutely struggles to build a legitimate successor system. Even if it's her at the at the heart of it or not. She cannot, you know, the I think if you look at the Sons of the Harpy insurgency, that shows that moral victory, you know, doesn't automatically create civic stability. And you know, so she's excellent at creating followership, but she's really, really bad at translating that into stable government. And she wants to be, you know, she thinks she's the queen of everyone, you know. Um uh what you know, breaking of chains, mother of dragons, rightful queen. She believes it, but she has absolutely no idea how to put it together and for it to be sustainable. And in fact, I would argue it bores her.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yeah, that's such a good way of thinking of it. I didn't think about her in the context of the team, but you're so right. Because I mean, she's ultimately she's a very effective short-term leader, interim leader. You know, she goes in, she frees people, she can do tools fairly quickly. She hasn't got a five-year plan. Unfortunately, to be a leader, you need to have vision beyond the next fight, beyond the next revolution, and you have to have emotional discipline as well. I mean, she believes that in order to form something new, you have to completely tear down the old version of it and the old thing. I mean, in um when she finally does conquer King's Landing, she absolutely burns the city, kills thousands and thousands of people, even after the bells have rung to signal surrender. Which hor which is part of the problem because that horrifies people like Jon Snow and Tyrion and the others who are around her. You know, that's not playing fair. I think she thinks that she is above fairness.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yeah, yeah. I think it's really interesting that she talked, you know, for probably now again, I'm I'm mindful of the probably the majority dissent in opinion about the quality of s of season seven and eight and the conclusion of Game of Thrones. So I think I think when you look at her I don't I agree that the you know the the uh the Tigerian madness grips her. But I think the speed with which it happens is probably you know in in season eight. Uh it's like one moment she's like, Great, I love everyone. Next minute, you know, she's like blowing everything up. Uh it it's a bit you know. Um but I think so. I think you have to take it, you know, again with a pinch of salt. But I think she talks probably for the first five seasons, we see her talking about wanting to break the wheel. You know, I'm gonna break the wheel, I'm gonna be different. I'm gonna be different from these all these men that have gone before and caused nothing but destruction. And yet, when we get to the very end, she is using the very oldest tool of the wheel, which is terror. That's it, it's just terror. That's not decisive leadership, it's just annihilation. And she dresses it up as destiny, and I have no idea why. And I don't think and which is why it's the why which is what which is why it's the madness, because what use is destroying the you know uh the capital for which you want to lead from? You know, this you know the madness is is by then gripped her to the point where um I think her identity is just fused with entitlement to the point where nothing else makes sense to her.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

No, and having alienated, as you call them quite correctly, your senior leadership team and your sort of key followers, I'm thinking Jorah and Miss Miss Sandre, were dead. So it's just her and her dragons ruling through fear, which, as you've said, was kind of the point of her was to not.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah. She was supposed to be a fresh start, and when you want fresh leadership, you fresh leadership isn't just a change of face. It's gotta be something, you know, it's it's gotta be something completely different. Fresh leadership can be the same face. That's the thing, it can be the same face, but with a different approach. But I mean she is not really by the end of it, she's not really any better than Joffrey.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

No, no, and actually whilst uh think about it, she is, I suppose, a fresh face in terms of she's not the Lannisters or she's not ruling the North. But the Targaryens they ruled at some point a few hundred years before Game of Thrones is set. So she's not from some outlying family who have never had power or never had No, and she's looking to take it back. Absolutely, yeah, exactly Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Which I think says a lot about also like drivers. I think we talk a lot about leadership identity and knowing kind of your say leadership traumas, and if you've not dealt with them, they will come out in your leadership. And I think this is a good example of hers.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Yes, yes, absolutely. I think when she's and and I think it what Dep I think how that sort of manifests itself is she's really when her when she listens to her advisors, you see her developing as a leader. So Tyrion, Varis, Jorah, Bariston, you know, uh Missande, you know, they they act as breaks, they kind of pull her back a wee bit on occasion, but but but also they are good sounding boards, and when she listens to them and she and she absorbs it and she digests it, she takes her time, reflects, she makes a decision, you see that she improves, she improves. That's when she makes the most progress. She makes the most progress when she's listening, not doing what people tell her, but absorbing information, listening to people. But then I agree, she when she stops listening, and I think you know, her judgment then just narrows. I think she stops listening because of her past traumas, because you know, she has been a victim, she was a victim of abuse. I can imagine it's extremely difficult to want to trust anybody. Um and um and then she's obviously feeling, I think, as she gets closer and closer to the the the throne, she probably feels more and more vulnerable. It becomes harder and harder to trust. But you know, I think Varis's execution in the bells, I think for me, that probably that for me is the absolute final collapse of any legitimacy she has at all. Because he is he dissents, he's not disloyal, he dissents, she interprets it as um a threat, and that for me then is the complete collapse of of her leadership, of her credibility. That for me is the moment, not when she decides to post bells, destroy um King's Landing. It's when Varis is executed.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Isn't it funny? Because as you were talking then, and you said she gets more and more vulnerable as she as she goes on throughout the series, she stops listening to people. And I was thinking, well, is that not because she's getting more and more confident? But it's not, is it? The opposite. It's the opposite because she is feeling more, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I think we do see a lot. As people get more and more power and responsibility, they feel more exposed.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Yeah, they do, and I think as exposure, and this has happened, you know, to both of us in our careers, you know, we've been both of us chief executives, we understand, you know, it's lonely at the top, it's it is you are exposed, you are yeah, you are vulnerable. It is easy to it is so easy to interpret questioning as a personal attack. So easy to you know misinterpret uh a challenge about systems as a personal political affront. You know, it does you know, but when you are under so much pressure on many different fronts. So I understand, yeah, but you know, I don't yeah, I think you're spot on there. It's nothing to do with in fact, I would say her confidence is probably diminishing.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Yeah, because at the start, what has she got to lose? Which is probably where a lot of her confidence comes from. But then, yeah, but then as everyone proclaims her mother of dragons and her messiah complex grows and grows, she's got that to lose.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

And I think that ultimately, I think that brand, her brand, traps her. It traps her, she's trapped. Um because it's it's like it's some kind of sacred brand that becomes and it's it's it's hard then for anyone, you know, to say, actually, the whole mother of dragons thing, it's not really working anymore, you know, because it's like but I'm the mother of dragons, you know, I'm the new messiah, I'm the second, you know, it's it is this messiah complex. And actually, but she just gets stuck in it, it she gets stuck in it then, and and again, when you become isolated in the most senior leadership position, to try and then reinvent yourself when you have built what you think you have done, is built all your credibility on one persona or one, it doesn't matter how depth of what the depth of character is, it's one significant you know, one significant persona. For you then to turn around and say, actually, yeah, that doesn't work anymore, does it? Well, then you start getting into identity issues, you start getting into you know how you perceive yourself, how others perceive you, then it it it it knocks your confidence. Absolutely, and then I you know the whole house of cards could you know perceivably begin. No, it shouldn't. It shouldn't. If you're a good, strong, stable leader. Actually, if you're a if you're a strong, stable leader, you don't get to that point, really.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Gradual as well. You would have a plan, you'd have a strategy, you'd be you'd be forward-looking, you would take it step by step, you wouldn't fly around with your dragons and then be like, mmm, this isn't working. Yeah, tomorrow I'll have a new persona. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

So is it a cult of personality? I was gonna say, around her.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Oh, I think so, yes, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Because actually, if you looked, I mean, because again, if you looked at her track record, she doesn't actually she frees a lot of people. She follows up with no stability for any of those people afterwards. Hmm. She's a let me think, hmm, she's a lot like Western governments that I can name now, um, going into um, you know, uh places in the world. Destroy a system f free inverted commas a people but then leave nothing in her wake. Actually, her she doesn't actually have a particularly good record of success, really. Which means I think it is a a personality, a cult of personality.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Yeah, she is not a systems thinker.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Good god no at all.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

She doesn't she doesn't link things.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Um and I don't think she's a particularly strategic thinker either. She understands symbolism, we said that. She understands theatre. She she can put those she can she can put together micro strategy that enhances her position or but only in in I would argue in the very you know she's real short-term is um even though she's got this long term vision, I've got to get to King's Landing, declare myself queen, have all these followers, you know, overwhelm the status quo. But actually, strategically, I don't I think a lot of it is she a lot of it is luck rather than design.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

To a degree, and I think overall, I think she begins to understand the politics and the geopolitics, and but at the start, when she's not so clouded with grief and emotions, she actually uses that to her advantage, and like you've said, it's luck. The fact that everyone is fractured all across Westeros, she uses to her advantage at first, but then when she as she becomes more emotional, more driven by grief and upset, it clouds the way she sees the politics, which is why she ends up with no one around her.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Would you want to work for her? Would you want her to be your boss?

SPEAKER_00 36:12

No, not at all. Not at all. I think I think it's interesting because I think um You know, yes, she inspires people to follow her, but she struggles to let them disagree with her. And the two the two men, uh certainly the the I can't remember his name. Um who's the chap who's like her first um her first advisor?

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Oh, um Sir Oh oh um the one before Jorah.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah, the one before Jorah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Sir Baristan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Oh, Sir Bariston, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

No, Jorah. No, Jorah. I'm thinking of Jorah. I'm thinking of Jorah first. I'm thinking of Jorah first, because Sir Bariston follows Jorah. I think um Yeah, I think the way that she treats him I think is unforgivable. I think because she wants she's unforgiving. And that I think is yeah, okay, so he's he uh yeah, he's been he's been spying. Yeah, that's pretty that's pretty horrendous. But she doesn't account for I mean alright, she doesn't execute him, but she lets him go, she lets him walk free. But I actually think, you know, she fails to recognize that his evolution and his uh loyalty is uh uh uh unwavering, and I think she she does herself and sh a disservice and she does him a disservice. Um I I think that's awful. I think it's terrible the way she treats him. I think it's terrible the way she treats him.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Yeah, I that reminded me of um in again just going back to when she's in Mereen, I think it is. Yeah, yeah. And um the masters I think the the slave slave kids were murdered by some of the masters there. So instead of just killing the ones that did it or looking into it, she kills all 163 of them, even though many of them oppose the killings. Yeah, it's like she's kind of like, Oh well, one thing happened, that's it, you're gone. And it's the same with Jorah, like, yeah, all yeah, exactly, all or nothing.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah, it's all or nothing with that. It's it's absolutism. I think her conviction at the start, which her moral clarity, her moral certainty, is compelling, it creates followership, it attracts talent. Um, it allows her, you know, that certainty allows her to confront the slavers, it allows her to I think that that certainty allows her to give the unsullied a choice to follow her as free men. I don't think by the time we get to season six, season five, I I can't see her offering the unsullied that option. By I think I think I think by the time we no, by the time we get there, I think it would be as it goes back to this piece about well, this this absolutism. You're either now, I freed you, therefore, you f you know you you you you don't just follow me out of choice, you follow me because you are loyal because I expect it. And I think that absolutism, yeah, it's the pivot that goes from purpose-led leadership to ideological rule.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 39:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Because she could be she could be um she she should be, and I think we as viewers, as readers, uh see her as the most credible and best option. And right up until until we don't, as it were. Until we don't. Um but again, I think I think we I think the immediacy, I think that's more to do with the write-in of the final seasons. Because I think had we gone on for maybe two or three, maybe four more seasons, I think I think her evolution would have been as uh her journey character arc would have been a more sophisticated piece, I think. I think we would have seen that.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Uh well I wonder if um as George Aurora Martin finished them, yeah. Because they finished the series before he finished the books. And so I wonder if he had finished the books first, then perhaps it might have been more gradual. I mean, the books are mammoths to read, that they've missed so much out of the shows. So maybe we would see something different if if it had happened um in a different order.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Yeah, I think it was a I think it was a convenience of script writing. Who um yeah, who rushed who rushed, yeah, her sudden sort of um descent into the Targaryen madness. Um yeah, because you were seeing signs of it, you were seeing the subtle changes, and then all of a sudden it was like boom. So but I think I think she really is, I think, you know, uh a useful warning about founder syndrome. You know, and we spent a lot, yeah, you know, we spent a lot of time working with groups who are whose leader, who's president, who's chair of the board, whose chief executive is the founder, and you know, she uh she exemplifies, you know, she builds a movement around her charisma, her trauma, her shade trauma with these people, uh, and her vision. But there is no succession plan, there is no strategic plan, there is no shade governance, there is no independent accountability, and there is no safe route for challenge. And I think that makes the whole project that is uh you know the mother of dragons, it makes the whole thing dependent on her emotional state.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

So if she had some terms of reference or articles of association, this might be very different.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Well, there you go. I I there you go. I mean, yes, indeed. The terms of association articles of association for the game of for for the King's Landing. Um, yes, indeed. But yeah, I think she is. I think, and I think, and I uh I think yeah, actually, and you see that quite a lot with oh, I think I'm thinking for charities I've worked with, um probably fewer membership bodies I've worked with, but certainly social enterprises that I've worked with, where somebody has a strong vision, but then uh family businesses that I've worked with, you know. Um, you think you you need to move on now. You need to you your vision was perfect in and of its time, but it's not and she actually, when you think about it, she was perfect for for goes back to your point about revolution. She was the revolutionary, she was the revolutionary leader, but not the peacetime leader.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

No, that that's yeah, that's a really good way to put it because your your vision will get you so far until it won't, then you need to formalize things, you need some form of structure, which I think is to be fair to Tyrion and Jon Snow, what they try they understood that. Yeah, Tyrion, Tyrion, definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Yeah. Jorah, not so much. Jorah, I think, just wants to see her on the throne. You know, he just and he, I think and he loves and there's love there, and it messes things up, and he's blinded by all that. And but uh likewise, uh Grey Worm as well, you know. Ultimately, Grey Worm loves her, he's like, you know, he

SPEAKER_02 44:00

love he's loyal to her, he loves you know and and Yeah yes but I think um she yeah I think you you're right you need you need shared leadership singular accountability absolutely but shared leadership yes no exactly so where how how how do we rank her I'm gonna give her four three and a half three and a half four I was gonna go three there are times when she's like a six or a seven at times which is why it was this has been a very confusing episode.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

But yeah three ish overall I think that's I think confusing pretty much sums her up it pretty much and and that's another you say would you work for her I think that's another reason why you wouldn't want to a confusing leader a confusing personality is not a leader it's just a confusing personality it's just chaos it's just chaos you're just like oh my god you don't know who you're gonna get on the Monday yeah yeah no stability no no consistency therefore no credibility yeah so I okay uh yeah three three and a half she's she's right down there she's right down there she's with Anakin pretty much although although actually what do I don't remember what we gave Anakin we need I don't know but I remember us saying that you know we you know Anakin was let down by the system I'm not sure what system has let her down not latterly not lately I understand that way back in the day you know she starts off impoverished because a system has let her down and she ends up in the circumstances she's in but but as she operating in a system really no no so within that context I I actually think that I think she probably ranks lower than Anakin I mean would she survive would she survive uh in in a galaxy far far away well you know what she'd she'd she'd put she'd give Senator Palpatine a run for his money that's for certain I couldn't see her in the empire in the formal management structure of the empire I could not see her working though unless it's as the emp Empress yeah either at the top I could I could see her being a Jedi Padawan a Jedi apprentice who goes off and becomes evil yeah I could see that yeah yeah yeah I could see that yeah yeah yeah yeah the emotional suppression gets to her like like Anakin God she is like Anakin sort of you're having a moment you're having a revelationary moment I do an article coming on yeah um the Avengers how was she doing the Avengers uh she would uh she would rival Thanos Oh my that's honestly I can't I can't see her uh she's so hell bent on one destiny she's so hell bent on one destiny she's so singular in her objective latterly and I just think well alright in in the in the Marvel universe she's not a team player at all she's not you see that because she she believes that she I don't understand she believes that her destiny is to be the uh the supreme ruler therefore she can you know yeah no likewise in Star Trek she'd just be like she'd be a Klingon she'd be a head of one of the Klingon planets or fortunes she'd be the borg oh my she would be the borg That's what she would be she would be the borg yeah absorbing people yeah resistant resistance is futile yeah she would be the oh god I mean the irony isn't uh normally I always just say that everyone would be pretty good on the wall but she wasn't any good on the wall dear yeah she'd leave cap and pike and whoever else you put on the wall yeah so she'd ultimately be a villain in pretty much in most of these other universes I I can see her in the seven I can see her in the seven challenging in fact I can see a I can see a whole storyline where she and Homelander come to grief um yeah I could see a whole yeah I could see her in the seven yeah there you go so uh the mother of dragons the freer of what do we what do we call it the freer of oh the breaker of chains the mother of dragons Khaleesi Khelsey I Khaleesi um actually pretty pretty um pretty poor really sad though she had so much potential at various points although now I'm thinking she didn't have the ripping her apart I I think she did have potential no I agree she did have potential and had she just listened had she listened leaned on because nobody nobody who's with her wants to challenge her nobody wants her job she's not surrounded by people who are looking looking and thinking conspiring to think oh I want to be the chief executive so I'm just gonna bide my time not one of them except Jon Snow and even they come to an agreement only sort briefly towards the end. Yeah but you know so actually she that's that I think the big tragedy of her um timeline is that she she she fails and I understand like we've said I understand it's her vulnerability it's her experience it's her trauma I get it I'm I'm sympathetic to it I understand why she doesn't but she doesn't trust or feelish and feels and but actually she her tragedy I think is that she doesn't use the talents that are around her yeah she doesn't build her team no not specifically an effective sustainable team yeah okay well there we go another I feel like we've done a few recently where we're like oh oh well that's another one uh because we did Captain America last week and what did we do the week before Pike was alright the week before Pike was good Pike was good the week before yeah yeah yeah Oximus Prime was a bit a bit of a bummer too oh god yeah who are we doing next week I I've lost track of who we've got a couple of guests coming on so we've got I don't know what order we've got Katniss Everdeen from Hunger Games who and catnip from Hunger Games oh right right yeah okay yeah cool yeah yeah and then after that well I'm not sure what order but then we've got Sarah Connor from Terminator oh that'll be a good one that'll be a confusing one whenever I watch Terminator I'm always massively confused about who's talking to who and when so that'll be a good one. Yes same yeah same um yeah but yeah so three very interesting uh female leaders excellent right awesome well visit us on our website everyone we finally have a website leadershipmultiverse.com leadershipmultiverse dot com and and give us a five star review if um help other listeners find the podcast because uh actually I've noticed uh I just actually I should start looking at our stats because we've got listeners now in like a hundred plus different countries which is I think phenomenal which is amazing so I'm gonna start giving shout out I think we should start giving shout outs to people um where they are in the Hanoi I see you that's one of them Hanoi I see you'll the next time it's a book title right there see ya.