Katniss Everdeen

In this episode of The Leadership Multiverse, Ellen is joined by special guest, Elisa Pratt to explore the leadership lessons of Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games.

Katniss is not a conventional leader. She doesn't seek power, status or a platform. She steps forward to protect her sister and becomes, almost against her will, a symbol of resistance, hope and disruption. That makes her a fascinating study in reluctant leadership, authenticity, personal brand and the uncomfortable politics of being turned into a figurehead.

Ellen and Elisa discuss Katniss as an imperfect but powerful leader: reactive, principled, emotionally driven, sometimes strategic, often resistant to being managed, and deeply shaped by the world around her. They consider what her story reveals about symbolic leadership, volunteer leadership, board dynamics, political performance, influence, empathy, rebellion and the limits of charisma.

Along the way, they ask whether Katniss belongs more naturally in Star Wars, Star Trek or the Avengers, whether she deserves more credit as a transformational leader, and why the messiest leaders are often the most interesting.

A thoughtful, lively conversation about the Mockingjay, leadership under pressure, and what happens when the person everyone follows never really wanted to lead.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Welcome to the Leadership Multiverse. So we have a fabulous guest online.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

So hi Lisa. Hello, Ellen. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Not at all. It is such a pleasure to have you. So today, unfortunately, my co-host Andrew couldn't be with her with us, but we've got Lisa here to discuss. I get enough, Andrew.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

I get enough, Andrew. Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Lisa and Andrew run another podcast. So they're um yeah. But yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yes, thanks for having me. I I like you, I'm I'm a nerd. I like I'm a star, you know, Star Wars person. I I I'm not a Marvel person as much, but I've been listening and and hearing how you're connecting things. So excited to be here. I I wore my my superhero suit. I'm ready. So thanks for having me. But uh for those who don't know me or don't listen to the Association Transformation podcast that I do with Andrew, my name is Elisa Pratt, and I am chief strategist of Brewer Pratt Solutions over here in the States. I'm in Washington, DC. And uh similar to Andrew and Ellen, I come from the Association Membership Organization, uh Trade Association space. So that's how we all kind of came to uh came to know each other, but excited to change hats and talk about leadership in this new exciting context.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yes, and we have a rather excellent character to talk about today, which is Artness Everine from Hunger Games.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yes, yes, you guys were when you had just started, I was looking at the list of you know heroes and and and I don't know how you categorize it, characters that um that you had covered. And not only was I looking for a way to feature female leaders, but I when I think of Katniss, she's there's just so much dynamic there to what you really want a leader to be. And it's not always the loudest person, it's not always the most ambitious person. It's um there there's just a lot there. And I I know given my my roses and my hair, I probably look like I'm a snow, a snow, a snow fan. Oh but I didn't I didn't mean for that, I just kind of thought about that. But um yeah, it's uh I will admit, as much as I love the series, I have not read the books, so I want to be true and transparent about that. I've seen all the movies um in order and otherwise, but um to my to my my purists, I want to admit I did not read any of the books. So I'm going based solely on the character as presented, you know, by um by our the actors and and how that was portrayed.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So no, that's fine. And um, gosh, I mean, with like Iron Man, we say we go off the films because Iron Man's in like 400 comics. Um so I've I I I read the books uh 12, 14 years ago. So I have watched the films much more recently. So I'm basically also going off of Jennifer Lawrence's portrayal. Um I think from memory they're fairly similar, um, but quite comp. Um but yeah, so in terms of patness, I mean, if we give a very brief biography, I mean she grows up in District 12, um, in poverty, um, you know, starving situations. Her father passed away when she was young. Um, and as a result, she is kind of the provider for her mother and her younger sister, Prue. Um, and then she uh enters her name in what is called the Reapings, which is when all the under 18s, I think, are the under 18 children.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I think it's more of a I think it's more of a draft. I think everyone of a certain age gets entered.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Oh yes. And she puts in extra entries, doesn't she?

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah, well, and you'll recall her younger sister gets drawn, gets selected. Yes. And so that's really the first this this call to action, this this need to come in and uh protect and and step up in place of someone else who is not fit for it or not appropriate. Um I think of her in terms of a volunteer leader, maybe not necessarily uh a chief staff executive leader, but as a board leader or a volunteer leader, someone who is is called to a purpose and and wants to maybe protect someone who's not ready for it. Um in this case, it was her family. Of course, she didn't want her her sister going to the reaping.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Yes, no, I would agree. And I think she or she starts off at least as being quite reactionary and being very, very much a symbolic leader first. I know that that kind of that carries on through, but she's from the start. I mean, yeah, the purpose of her was that her sister does not have to take part in the hunker game. So she's kind of a one-issue, a single-issue leader at the start.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah, yeah. It's and I love that you use the word reactive because we take that as, you know, we can see that as inspired, we can see that as um passionate, we can see that as committed, but at the same time, it is it is um irresponsible in some ways. It is it is uh uh dangerous. It is, you know, there's other sides to this, and that's why I like her as a dynamic character. She does change very dramatically, as does the environment and the people around her. Um, but she does start as a symbolic leader, and I think that authenticity, that that shared suffering is what draws so many people to her, um, almost like a civil rights you know leader or or advocate. Um but uh then she gets in there and has to has to survive.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, and I I find her quite um almost ironic in a way that she she is she is the mocking Jay, you know, she is the sort of symbol. But she has she actually really hates propaganda and being politicized herself, um, to the point where I actually think that she needs to learn a bit more of a poker face because she just sort of every time someone tries, you know, when she's sort of paraded in front of people or to get sponsors, she just hates being up there, she hates being on stage, she hates being the simple, even if it is you know, to get she would get more sponsors, she would get more food in the Hunger Games if she sort of did, and if she twirled her fire dress around, but it's like if you smile as much as you don't want to be there, maybe maybe that would get you a bit further along with your strategy.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Yeah, she she hates the she hates the the politics of it, she hates the show, the game, she knows she's being manipulated, and she knows she has to manipulate um in in order to get through. So I think that's somewhat of her maturation through the through the the movies, is she learns how to play and and how to manipulate at a more strategic level versus just surviving and and um you know making it farther than than other people. But um I you know as as someone who wants to be an authentic leader myself, you do struggle with that, that being candid, being raw, being being honest, and and then when you should play it, play it a little more measured, and does that will that come off as fake? Will that come off as as scripted or overly crafted and therefore erode your ability to be authentic or be considered authentic later? Um so she um she finds a balance, but I think we that's what we love about her is that she is she is uh an un an unknown factor. They can't truly control her. Um and I think in terms of that board, that board chair, that's scary. You know, having a leader that doesn't stick to the script, um, and and maybe for for Snow, who is the I don't know, governor, president, President Snow, um, you know, having her be more beloved than him is really what eats at him. Um and and her the uncertainty and the spontaneity and the passion, um, you know, that's what draws people to her. So I I think of it both as someone trying to control, not control, but to put a board chair in a position to succeed. And to do that, you give them scripts, you you encourage them to follow a certain um protocol. And when they don't do that, it's it's very scary. Um, it may um endear them to to certain constituencies, but at the same time, it's um it's it's something that becomes un uncertain, uncertain and and uncontrollable, and that can be scary.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, no, I would definitely agree. And she she actually contrasts in a way with um Hamish, you know, Woody Harrelson's character, because I think you see him as being quite uh like you know, he's drunk all the time, he's really reckless, you think you think he is a loose cannon.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah, he's cynical, he's been you know, burned by the system, he was chewed up and spit out by the whole machine, and he's trying to protect her but use her at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Exactly. But I would say he actually is more strategic and he thinks three steps ahead, even whilst he clearly absolutely hates it, he does charm people when he needs to. He knows when to switch it on and off, despite him coming across as across as quite reckless. But with catness, you never really get that. He just cannot stand the political performance.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah, no, she's she's paralyzed by her bias, um, by her own bitterness and her own uh you know personal tragedies and and and struggles. Yes. So she has that cloud, that filter of her own experience. She isn't always able to separate herself from what needs to be done. And and that's you know, that's that's selfish, that's that's immature. And you know, I think in this, she is kind of supposed to be a teenager when when the movies start. Um, but the other interesting character, especially in the later movies, is the Philip Seymour Hoffman character. Um, he is the game, the game maker on you know the bad guy side. Um, and he's very, very interesting because he is almost kind of that PR agent. Uh, he knows what is going to get the audience vested. He knows what's going to get them to like her or dislike her or or trust her or root against her. Um and that is it's a very uh it is a political satire is not the word, but it it is a very political commentary on uh on sadly a lot of what we see, you know, especially in American politics. But um there were a lot of handlers in her in her world, a lot of people trying to to handle her from how she looked to what she said to how she was represented to how you know she was received by by the masses. And I think we have to remember that in our volunteer leaders, we have to make it easy, but also let them feel and and be the leaders they want to be. Find what what their why is as cheesy as and sinusinic as that is, um, you know, find out what their call to action is and let that be their fuel versus trying to put them into a box of what a board chair is supposed to be or um or or what we what we need of them at that moment, as much as we need them to be what we need them to be in that moment, um we have to make it them and authentically them as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah, it's about their personal brand. And actually, as you were saying that, I was thinking about I think it's in the first Hunger Games film, when she's kind of going through, she's being dressed, she's getting the talk, she's already had the interview with Stanley Tucci with the nice the nice dress. And actually, for chief execs and even board members, it is about the personal brand as well. You know, me and Andrew talked on previous episodes, it's kind of not just about what you say or your leadership style, it's about your body language, your actual language, the language you use, the tone of your voice, how you dress, you know, we're not not in a not stereotyping or being a judgmental, but all of that contributes towards the actual character, which to be fair to um the game makers in Hunger Games, they understand that completely. And whilst we think it is a media manipulation or it's all about PR, actually, all of that stuff does matter in a kind of business sense as well, but we just don't we don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Yeah, I mean the the big unspoken character in the Hunger Games is the socioeconomic landscape. And and you know, Pan M is a have and a have not. Yes. And and so her coming from that have not side of the world makes you automatically root for her as the underdog uh protagonist. Um so we we like her from the beginning, we want her to succeed from the beginning. Um, and but I think when we extract these little elements of it, we can learn a lot from both both President Snow. I mean, imagine you're you're a chief staff executive or reverse, imagine you're a board chair and the membership love the chief staff executive. They are the most popular, everyone wants to be around them, and you're you're kind of on in you know in the shadows. You know, you know, how these some of it is ego, some of it is just human nature of wanting to be liked. But this struggle for popularity in uh a political context, um, trying to win the hearts and minds is uh is something I do see at the association space. Um, and I think a cautionary tale for chief staff executives to remember whose organization it is and make sure the spotlight is pointed where it should be. Um that uh you know you're you're you're not the character, you're not the hero in the story for the association.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah, and it's about putting the kind of the organization or the cause first as well, a lot, as Katniss is doing. And we talk a lot about leaders being products of their time. You know, looking back on, you know, Captain Kirk represents very much the sort of 60s Cold War era, um, to looking through at Katniss, who is in this sort of I don't dystopia the right, the right word, but like you say, the kind of extremes. They're post they're post they post-nuclear, I think, in Hunter.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

I think I it's post-apocalyptic in one way or the other. There is a lot of there is a lot of gluttony on on one side of the equation. And what is it called? The capital, where everyone is just you know, they eat so much food and then make themselves nauseous so they can continue to eat more. You know, it's it's such over-the-top consumption and and gluttony and waste that it uh the fire in her, we can see why that there's that fire in her, and we're rooting for that. But she she falters. Um, who is the uh there's a who's the leader of the rebellion? Red hair, um it's in like the third or fourth movie. She comes in, she's kind of the leader of the rebellion, more matronly. Um and she wants to, she doesn't want to control Katniss, but she's more uh, you know, she's controlling kind of the military uh deployments and and allocations of resources. Um what is her name? She's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Let me get my eye on the case.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Yeah, and that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

But actually again, cat I mean, again, Katniss does not fit well in the kind of military structure, and I think we see we see her struggle with that. And I was yeah, I mean, it's funny because in our last episode we did Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones and we compared her to Princess Leia. I know you're a big Princess Leia fan. And again, I was I did I did think she fell. Oh, we can that's another episode. We'll we'll redo the Princess Leia. But um, but I was I was like, oh, you know, they kind of are um like leaders of rebellions, but actually Leia operates in a much more political military environment, which which she arguably thrives in and accepts, whereas Katniss does not. I mean Katniss is also very much a sort of almost a battlefield, battlefield leader, maybe not so much towards the end, but she get she gets involved. I mean, you would I mean arguably you would watch her go into battle and think, oh, okay, actually I will follow, I'll follow her.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Well, and you know, she that her her skill set, her strengths come from where she's from, come from the world that she was thrown into. She's not trained. I mean, they they make her go through training later, um, and and try to turn her into a warrior. But even in the end, it comes down to the skill set, the archery that she has has grown up with and that fed her family. Um so, you know, from the very beginning, that's her that's her superpower, is not only her ability to inspire people through her humility and her her authenticity, but she never truly becomes, I think, that tool of the machine, other than being their pretty face, which, you know, the sexual the sexualization of her um and the forced marriage and all the things, um, you know, that that's for a different episode. But in the leadership context, I I love that they never gave her a big old gun. You know, she was always kind of using the tools that she she had that she was comfortable with that um that you know she she was known for.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Yes, yeah, and I think again that adds to her appeal as the kind of symbol because I think is it the ones from like district one or district two that they're kind of very well off what district one is the capital, that's where they have like all the crazy hair and makeup. But that's district one, yeah. Because in in the first film, don't they say that they had so many volunteers from District One because they basically spend their lives craning to volunteer for the Hunger Games.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

I just which I just find yeah, I think there is, I mean, they get all the support, they they win a majority of the time, right? They are the Goliath to District 12's David. Um, yes, Julianne Moore. That's what I was thinking of. Julianne Moore. Oh, yes, oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Plays uh President Al McCoyne, um, the leader of the you know the rebellion. Um her frustration with Katniss at different times is I think more when I try to put this into an association context, is more similar to the chief executive board chair kind of dynamic in some ways. But um, you know, you also have to learn the motivations of your leaders. And she knows it's protect Katniss's motivation is protecting her sister, protecting her mother, um, you know, protecting her district. And so she plays on that. She they all use each other, they all use each other, and it's it's uh a commentary on humanity. And while we we can still do good things and achieve missions and advance good causes, um sometimes you know, we have to be different things at different times. Her relationship, um, you know, her, I guess you'd say romantic relationships are are also interesting in that they require her to be a different person with each of those those suitors. Um, but as a leader, I appreciated her maturation, her evolution while still staying true. And uh you know, her mistakes were her mistakes. And that, of course, in Hollywood terms, that that ended up all kind of working out for her. Um but it uh it would be interesting to see it rewritten from in a male as a male role, um, and how some of her characteristics would might be considered weaknesses, whereas uh as a female being a unique leader put in that position, um, some of her empathy and and sympathy and and uh you know, I think of Rue, you know, who she she saved in the games, um, and some of those those interactions would be considered a weakness if it had been maybe a male character. Um so there's there's a lot of ways to take it, but yeah, I it's just someone I wanted to make sure was kind of included in the the leadership uh within the multi-universe and uh make sure that even the imperfect leaders, even the unwilling leaders, even the accidental leaders get um get kind of their their time.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

They do. Would you say she is definitely a transformational leader?

SPEAKER_02 23:21

In that she transformed herself or she transformed others.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Um herself, but actually others. That's yeah, because we me and Andrew have this discussion, yeah. What what is it that makes a leader? Is it the fact that you've got followers? I mean, Andrew famously says he thinks you're a leader or you're not, you know, you're not a good or a bad leader. Um I mean, does she, I suppose, does she, but does she intend to build a followership or is it a happy accident?

SPEAKER_02 23:52

She she's unintentional, which makes it that much more magical, is that it's not her ambition. It's not because of what she will get out of it, other than the protection of her family. Um, I think she does help get the best out of people, and that's to me what makes a good leader is when you elevate those around you, either through what you inspire in them or what you help them magnify, or what confidence you give them, or or whatever it may be. And there are several characters that she comes across in the games, those who are meant to be her competitors, her adversaries, um, that she does um help heal and make better and and and give greater uh purpose to.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, that actually, yeah. I was just thinking because in um is it could she fire the second one when they have the quarter quell games, she um whilst I don't think she's particularly strategic, she is strategic then in her relationship building. So with is it? She comes in much more, yeah. Yeah, it gives in more to the fact that oh I don't like these snobby capital people would actually could all potentially die. So I think she may as well play the game.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Yeah, you don't have to like the game to know that the game isn't that playing the game is necessary. Um, and I think that's an important piece of maturity that thankfully she gains early in the movies. Um, and and while she's still bitter and pushes against it as the the movies progress and the story develops, she does get better at it. I mean, isn't she the one who has the idea for the dress to burn away?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Oh yeah, oh yeah, no, I think she yeah, yeah, she adds to it.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I know Lenny Kravitz, I know Lenny Kravitz, you know, was her designer, but um, you know, she contributes to some of this um brand and um image management as as it goes on. Yeah, you know, she's she I think doesn't, or maybe is it the proposal? Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah, no, I think it is the fire and the dress, but I think it is also the proposal. But I suppose that shows that really as leaders, even adding small as small memorable aspects to our brand can just make us memorable. Um and thinking about it in in that way, that it sometimes it is just the smallest gestures, like the putting of flowers on Rue. I mean, what you know, whether that was deliberate or that was I don't I think it was deliberate from her part. I don't think she did that to gain sympathy. But when if you see that when because you're when you're watching the Hunger Games, you think, oh my god, that poor that poor girl, that poor woman, look how empathetic she is. That is when she uses her empathy, whether she likes it or not, to gain support.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

What'll be interesting, I think there's a couple more prequels coming. Um, I don't know if you've seen the uh uh what is it, the snakes and um I've seen one of them, one from a few years. Which is uh, you know, it's it's the story of President Snow and the opportunity to, I guess, humanize him, give him more dynamic. Um, you know, how often does Hollywood want to they want you to fall in love with the bad guys, they want you to to like the bad guys, um, and and maybe they needed that pre-story um to do so. I enjoyed the ballad of song, birds and snakes. I don't know what else is coming next, but I think there are more more stories to unfold. Um what's the next one? Sunrise on the what is it called? I mean, I think these oh that one comes out this year.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Uh oh gosh, a month before doomsday. Sorry, that's the one.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

We're breaking news here. Sunrise on the reaping. Um, the next prequel of Hunger Games um will come out November 20th, 2026. Uh, let's see. Story set 24 years before Katniss Everdeens Games. So um it focuses on the second quarter quell. Yeah, so interesting. Oh, which Hamish.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Oh no, it's Hamish was there. But I think these morally gray characters, I mean, we love a morally gray character on the leadership multiverse, and not that I would say Katniss is morally grey, but she's not a cut-and-dry great leader by any means.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Well, would you like to be? Yeah, I don't know what you and Andrew use as your your metrics for that.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Um what we feel on the day.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Yeah, I mean, you said you didn't know what her her motivations were.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Well at first her motivation is to save her sister, correct? But after that, I mean, is it about saving District 12? Is it about bringing justice to the whole system? Or is she just a single now and it's gone too far?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

It does become pretty focused on on winning against President Snow, killing President Snow. Yeah, they become very um personal rivalries, one versus one um uh protagonist, antagonist focused on on each other, on the downfall of each other, because they know the the role that they each play as the the symbol of of each side. So it's bigger um do I think she's uh you know, she's not an unsophisticated leader. Um, she knows she she you know when having to doing that thing where they threaten to to eat the berries to force the hand of the game. Oh yeah, oh no, you know, I mean she's not an uns, she's not unsophiaching, she's strategic, she she gets more sophisticated, she becomes more capable of playing the manipulation game as it goes along, and I think for the right cause, is that cause somewhat self-serving? Sure, she's from District 12, her family's from District 12, um, and we as an audience are set up to see them as the good guys, and um you know the capital as the oppressors, the capital as the the um the the you know the gluttonous bad guys. Um so we're I think she doesn't get as much credit as a leader as she should, we'll put it that way. So, but on the scale, do I think she's a 10 on your scale? No. Um, she's definitely an imperfect leader. I'd be interested to see a book written about her as an adult, you know, where she has her own children or she's I don't know what becomes of her after all the movies they're doing are prequels. I want to see kind of, you know, what is she what happens to her at 40? What is she doing at 50? Um, and you know, now that they have collapsed the the uh the Pan M hierarchy, what what does she do with that? Um, you know, what does she and Hamich just go back to their their little houses in District 12 that they were given as gifts? And to me, that's the most disappointing part is that after all of this, given the symbol you were and this the platform that you had and the battle that you've won to just take your ball and go home? Yeah, I that to me is disappointing.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah, I was gonna say, what you know, I mean, I don't know if I mentioned it, but what is the her plans for succession, you know, in the rebellion? Does she, you know, does she have a a three-year plan? Does she know who she would want? You know, would she enter politics? What? I and I suppose that answers that's to yeah, to your point, exactly. I once had a boss who said, you know, he would feel he had been a successful chief exec if in five years' time everyone remembered what she had done because it was so important. So is that well, we're is that how pattern feels? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

We will have a legacy, there will be a history. I don't know that that matters to her. Um no, okay. Her boldest action in the end, and I don't are do we do spoilers on this part?

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Yeah, you can do. Yeah, do spoilers spoiler alert. There we go. So turn off now.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Spoiler alert, spoiler alert. So I mean her boldest action, I wouldn't even say is her victory over president. I would say it's her killing of President Alma Coyne, the Julianne Moore character, who is the the leader of her side of the rebellion, but she knows doesn't have pure intentions, is is just going to become a new President Snow. Um and I think they make their hair color the same on purpose, you know, so you can see them almost becoming interchangeable pieces. Um, but her, that's the bravest thing she does as she is when she's they're putting her into dresses and they're trying to make her into this symbol and keep her as a pretty, pretty face, a pretty symbol to inspire people. That's the boldest and bravest thing that she does is change the trajectory of ultimately the winning side, um, the rebels, by um preventing the leadership of President Al McCoin.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah. And I suppose that in itself is very strategic. I feel like I'm going around in circles. I'm like, she is strategic, she's not strategic, she is strategic.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

I gotta win you over. I gotta win you over. She's strategic, but reactionary. She's imperfect, she's impulsive, she's passionate, um, she is motivated, she sees the bigger cause. Um, you know, when when when she's in that kind of not the arena, but she's in that like amphitheater, and you know, the guy does the the whistle thing and then they come out and beat him. And she knows she knows the weight of this, she knows what's at stake. Um, and I I her humanity and her anger, you know, the balance of that, I think are are really, really powerful. Um but I would, I mean, I would argue that she's at least a seven on the leader scale. Okay. I don't know if you guys are like hard judges or or easy judges, but um, if you're talking about impact, ability to inspire and and change people and transform people, if you're talking about her ability to to you know to win, um you know, she she and I think her her self-awareness, while it may be limited, I do do think she evolves um as her, you know, she matures, she gets more strategic, she starts to listen more, she plays the game better.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Um, so I think that all all improves. Um, and I think her imperfections are are part of her superpower.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Yeah, I'd I'd probably I would agree with that overall.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

I think I'd give her a five and a half, I think. What who is your like who else have you given a seven or above two?

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Uh huh. Interestingly. One woman, black widow, princess Leia. So seven. Um let me see. What did you give to Tony Stark's Iron Man? Oh, like gosh, that was our first one.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Three, maybe four. As long as we're on the same. I just want to collect I wanna um I want to calibrate my my scale here accordingly. Yes, I would. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Yes, no, I appreciate that. Yeah, we we need to get a big list of our ranked ones so we can see our arbitrary system.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Um then we can do a then we can do a leadership cup and have like a bracket, you know, and they they go against each other and then we end up, yeah.

unknown 35:52

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

That's another thing to add to the list. Yeah, that's a good idea. Oh my god. I mean, World Cup season is a perfect time for you know for some bracket play.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

A lot of good bracket play, good pop culture bracket play, that's my thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Yeah, very good.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Um do you see catness?

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Well, sorry, no, I was gonna say, did you see her in a Star Wars universe or Star Trek, did you see her having a role in thriving, or would she not?

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Well, uh Star Trek, no, because she is too reactionary. You know, Star Trek comes from a structure, there's a military protocol there. Yeah, Starfleet's very hated. Yeah, all the things she hated once the rebellion, once the rebellion became professionalized, that's when she she wanted to sneak away and just get it done herself. Um, I think she would be much more appropriate for the the vibe and and the the aura of of the rebellion in in Star Wars. But um, I think given how spread out that that universe literally was, it would be harder for her to inspire people. Um across planets versus just districts where people rally and and come together and just you know, crowds always, you know, it's it seemed easy for people to gather and um her to you know have a message without anything too high-tech.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah. Yeah, no, that's true. No. I could actually see her in the Avengers because they're all kind of solo operators until they need to save the world, which is kind of how she operates. Yeah. So you know, she'd just she'd she'd come in, then she'd go when no one needs her, and she could do her own do her own thing, go back to District 12, and then yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

She's an anti-hero. She's an anti-hero because she didn't choose it, she's an anti-hero because she doesn't enjoy it. Um, and you know, it does become personal. There's vendettas in there, there's um, there's manipulations in there. You know, it's not a clean story. No, no leader's story is is that linear. Um, if we're being honest about it, whether it's a board leader, whether it's a a staff executive, whether it's simply the mission of your organization, nothing's that cut and dry. So I think her leadership is I like this the messiness of the story. You know, Star Wars gets a little simplified. Um, and when you yeah, it's always hard, you know, we live in an era where the movies were released at a certain time, and now if you go back and you want to watch them in story order, it it's a little a little challenging to suspend disbelief. And yes, you know, there's just a lot tied up in neat bows, and that's why I would enjoy having uh follow-up Hunger Games where we see her later, we see what what Pan M has become. And I don't know that it's necessarily become any better. A lot of times these leadership vacuums lead to something worse. Um, and rebellions are great at fighting, but they're not always great at governing. Um so it's uh that would be my request to um who wrote this book?

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Suzanne uh Collins?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah, I guess we should give credit to the the authors, but um and the request, please, for follow-up. Put that in the uh suggestion box. Um, but I'm just glad we get to talk about her. Um I'm glad she's she's in consideration. Um, I think when when really looked at at all the possible angles and and layers and and imperfections, I think that you know people do underestimate her.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

No, I fully agree. And she's been a fascinating one to kind of tear apart and look at because none of these, none of these leaders are um straightforward, which is what makes them so interesting and so much easier to connect to as someone who you know we're chiefly like you know, I was a chief exec, so it's you know, um seeing them struggle with decisions, etc. It it's um it makes you realize you could be a superhero, but it doesn't make you a concept leader.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

So well uh sorry, just one last thought. Even as a even when you are winning, it's it you're never gonna get the appreciation necessarily that you you might uh you might deserve. So but with that, I do I do appreciate you guys. I'm so glad you guys um are are keeping keeping these conversations going. I love the new podcast and uh thanks for having me. Thanks for considering the mocking Jay and uh and taking up taking up the discussion. I appreciate it. And hopefully I'll I'll try to think of someone new um in all my new movie watching and in my old movie watching. Um I think finding leaders where we don't expect um is is really what what I hope to do in my work with volunteers and and in industry groups, um, you know, helping identify and elevate leaders when they may not think they're leaders, um, or or when they're they're not comfortable. And that's kind of the the catness. Um, you know, the yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

It's her almost her reason to be, sort of. Yes. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been a really fascinating discussion. So thank you. I love the Hunger Games films. I always have. I would just whistle the random whatever, you know, what she whistles. Just yeah. I'm not good at it. It's the pitching, like I get I don't get my up down, up, down. Yeah, and you see everyone will know. Now I've said that, everyone will know what I mean. But um, thank you so much, Elisa, for coming on. Um, ask if everyone could please check out our website www.leadershipmultiverse.com. We now have a website with a newsletter uh where we also host a podcast on there as well. Please give us five stars on whatever you're listening to us off of and tune in next week because we've got another guest coming on, and we're going to do Sarah Connor from the terminator.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

I'll let's definitely listen to that one. Well, thanks so much. Good luck with this. Thanks for having me, everybody. Thank you. Catch you in the next timeline.