Sarah Connor

In this episode of The Leadership Multiverse, Ellen is joined by keynote speaker, former military officer, intelligence specialist and business leader Stuart Barker to explore the leadership lessons of one of science fiction’s most unlikely heroes: Sarah Connor.

From waitress to warrior, protector to mentor, Sarah Connor’s journey across the Terminator franchise is a masterclass in leadership under pressure. She has no title, no formal authority and no special powers. Yet she becomes a leader capable of influencing others, preparing for an uncertain future and making difficult decisions in the face of overwhelming adversity.

If leadership is ultimately about influence, courage and preparing others for a future you may never see yourself, Sarah Connor might be one of science fiction’s most compelling leadership case studies.

Listen now for a fascinating discussion about crisis leadership, resilience and the power of purpose.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Multipless. And today we are being joined again. Stuart Mamaker. Hi Stuart, great to have you on.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Hi, Ellen. It's an absolute pleasure to be with you.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah, great. And I'm so excited about our character today. But um before we get into the world of Sariconna and Terminator, um, do you want to just give a little introduction to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah, um, so as I said, my name's Stuart Barker. I'm uh a keynote speaker and uh company director of a logistics company, but uh 30 years career before that um was sort of forged in the military, starting my military education at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in 1989, commissioning as an infantry officer, um, having a career as a regular military officer before moving into law enforcement and intelligence work. So I've sort of worked around the globe, um mainly um sort of either on military operations or running human intelligence operations, so um running agents and undercover operations, and I also spent a spell heading up the UK uh diplomatic team at Europol in the Netherlands. So a variety of um operational experiences in both the military and intelligence and law enforcement um arenas. So hopefully I can bring some of that lens to today's discussion in the same way that I hope that my keynotes and workshops um help leaders um navigate their way through high pressure situations currently.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

I was gonna say, I think your experience of leadership and decision making under pressure, um, there's probably a few parallels with Sarah Connor, given hence the reason I'm the reason I'm so keen to talk about um this particular character and their their leadership arc, really.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yeah, I mean to I'll just I'll give a really brief overview just for listeners who who may not know who Sarah Connor is, but I mean she's been around for quite a while. I mean, she starts off as a waitress in Melanie in the first Terminator film. Um and her life, I think, is fair to say, is kind of turned side down when various people from the future, people including cyborg, travel back and tell her that her unborn son will change the the course of the future slash history um in humanity's fight against cyborgs. That's kind of her in a nutshell, really.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah, absolutely. The um the the sort of the the nightmare prediction for AI and the robot world.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, what type of leader do you think Sarah Connor is if you had to define her?

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Well, I think um it's difficult to put a single label um on her because, as I said, uh I alluded to her a couple of moments ago, she's got a very interesting sort of leadership arc, if you like, that takes her from sort of what I would say is reluctant civilian um through a sort of a time where she has to survive and discovers her agency. She's then obviously got a foresight that others don't have, which is a burden, and how that um forces her to sort of become um sort of forged um, you know, and prepared for the future. Um, that there's there's a bit on her journey where she loses her sort of moral way a little bit, but then sort of rediscovers sort of her humanity. And eventually, I think, you know, and this is the you know, you say she started the story as a sort of as a waitress um in a diner, but it sort of finishes as the mentor of the next generation of leadership. So, you know, a full-spectrum journey as a leader from this reluctant civilian to mentor of the next generation. So I think you know that this is why the character is so interesting because there's such a developmental sequence, including a time, as I said, where where she becomes morally lost, you know, and it's a demonstration that in really complex situations sometimes there are no clean um you know decisions, everything has moral ambiguity. So, you know, I I think it it's difficult to um to put a single label on her. Um, she's certainly driven by requirement, not ego. So a purpose-driven leader. Um she sort of you know had to work hard to become not just the sort of the warrior that she became, but um, you know, to become the leader that she becomes um by the end of you know um Terminator 2. So an interesting arc that sort of, as I said, moves from this reluctance person to um a truly transformational leader. So I think any any leader um that kind of plans beyond their tenure um is truly looking to deliver um transformational leadership. Um so you you know, and and I think I think in many ways um for those of us that have been on a leadership journey, um, we like to think that we're relevant and that it's you know a lot of it is driven by us and you know we can deliver change and and we we can do these things. I think there is a real maturity in a leader when they realize that actually they're preparing for the future when they're not in it. And and I think that's the the interesting place that Sarah Connor ends up in. So I don't want to get obviously right to the end of things, right at the beginning, but um you you know you're you're seeing this um you know wait waitress with no responsibility, no leadership, no management, to somebody who is truly transformational um by the end of Terminator 2. So it's it's uh you know quite a journey from that point of view.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, absolutely. And um, I think a lot of us as leaders as well, and a lot of the the leaders we discuss on the podcast, they they want power, they want responsibility, um, they want the title, the position, they want authority. She does not start off wanting any of that. Which I think again is why she doesn't have this ego that we see. So she doesn't have this, you know. I think at some at some point she's a little bit stubborn, but she doesn't have ego by any means by some of like some of the leaders we talk about. And I was thinking she also doesn't ever have authority as such. I mean, she's never really given a position other than she is Don Connor's mother, therefore she must protect slash train train him up.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yes. Well well let's I mean let's tackle that straight away because um in actual fact leadership is not about titles. And I think anybody who's truly um you know experienced leadership um will will tell you that actually it's nothing to do with the title, it's everything to do with behavior. So it's an interesting thing to note that whilst there's no hierarchical um authority as such, um you know, clearly she is acting as a leader. She is you know building a capability um for the future. She takes over this sort of mentoring um sort of type role. So um it's it's leadership in everything but title, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Or just all or leadership, if we're saying that you don't need a title, then it's still which I think a lot of people sometimes in the real world think that you need to have that title before you can be a leader, but like you say, you don't, even so much as do you just need to inspire people? Do you just need to have followers? Is does that make you a leader?

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Well, um that yeah, that that's an interesting um question. I mean, I always look at leadership through the lens of influence. Um so so so for me that that that defines um sort of leadership is is the ability to um take others on a journey, either with you or sort of a delegated journey. Uh and um you know, and and that can take a variety of forms, you know, that that could be management, um, you know, the the delegation of tasks, it could be command, you know, in in certain situations, um, you know, a good leader needs to be able to command. And then and then I think finally there's the ability to engage people in a truly adaptive process where actually you're giving the problem to the group, to the team to solve. And I think there's a there's a place for all of those different styles, and um, you know, and I think a good leader is an adaptive leader, somebody who can flex between the different different styles. And I think you know, Sarah Connor does that.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking, arguably with with John, she does that. Um, I mean, obviously her her role, she is his mother, obviously that does conflict sometimes with with that that we see in Terminator 2. I mean, everyone thinks that she's she's crazy. She's talking about knowing what's going to happen in the future, and she'd been preparing John, um, you know, teaching him how to fight, etc. And everyone thinks that she's a crazy woman, but actually she is doing what a good leader would do. It's just unfortunate that no one no one believes her.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Well, I mean, I and I think this is you know, this is the thing, is that um very often as leaders, because of our position, or maybe because of the way that we view problems and issues, we often see over the horizon, we see the threat before others see it. And that creates a burden and a certain loneliness as well, because um ultimately she's speaking um as a lot of leaders do about a threat and preparing for a threat and trying to prepare others for a threat that they haven't seen yet, and that can be incredibly difficult and also isolating. It's um I'm gonna throw a cliche out, but this is the loneliness of command, isn't it? Leaders take that responsibility, um, you know, the burden of knowledge, and and you know, having worked in sort of military and intelligence agencies, you know, um often I've been burdened with knowledge about a particular threat, and it's and it's and it can be isolating.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Oh yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it's such a it's a challenge, it's also a communication challenge because you have to convince people sort of and talk to them about a threat that they can't yet see. I mean, it's almost an impossible task. I mean, we look at it a bit maybe with with AI, I'm just speaking from my experience as a as a chief exec, you know, AI is fantastic, but we do need to be careful, we need to put what data we put in, we need to heed all the warnings because people can just get over excited. So having to rein people back and say, actually, the future isn't all bright, that's quite that's quite a feat because then you could feel like you say lonely, people start to resent you. And you have to sort of not get into almost conflict with them about it. But I think we we do see in Terminator 2 there are sort of flips between um, you know, maintaining, oh, these people travel back, these cyborgs, I had to fight with them. And then she sort of starts to say to the doctors, oh no, well, actually, you know, oh, I didn't mean it. I was I was being crazy, and she's sort of trying to manipulate the situation, but there's such a fine line to take, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's uh that there's an interesting distinction as well, because I think one is seeing or knowing a threat and communicating it, the other is then getting people on a pathway of preparedness. And it's interesting that you choose the example of AI, but I could equally you know choose something similar, which is a cyber attack. Um is that you know, very often people don't want to see the you know that it's likely, um, probably almost certain in reality. Um, and so trying to you know explain that in terms of crisis and preparedness, not only is this threat likely, but actually we need to be preparing for it. And and and you turn, you know, sort of non-crisis moments, you you have to use them as preparedness, not comfort. Whereas, you know, mostly people think, well, everything's great, we're sort of sailing along quite nicely, it's very comfortable. Um, it's being the leader that actually says this moment is for prep preparation, not for comfort. And that's really, really difficult. So it's not just explaining it, it's also then getting others to embark on a course of action which is about preparedness. Really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no, completely. And um, I think because Sarah has got that knowledge that she well, she I'd say she definitely knows it's going to happen. Obviously, there are various different timelines in the Terminator world, but it impacts how she leads because I think a lot of leaders want to feel that they are, you know, positive and hopeful. And I'm just thinking to other leaders, I mean, in in Star Trek, for example, you know, then the captain's missions are to explore strange new worlds, which is a very positive and hopeful thing, whereas Sarah, she's leading through fear because she knows what's going to happen. Um again, that can kind of take over your leadership style. You know, it could kind of make you a really negative person, it could make you, it can make you very isolated. And I think with Sarah, it makes her really hard to it makes it hard for her to trust people, which we see, I mean, we see throughout the films.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think what's interesting, um, you know, sort of throughout the the Terminator films is um her her leadership and influence is constantly in crisis. That there's there's not a single moment where it's sort of particularly rebalanced as a leader. It's it's crisis leadership. So we we never get an opportunity to kind of have a look at you know how do I now exploit this era of stability that I've delivered? Because you you know, maybe towards the end of you know um Terminator 2 um there is that kind of moment where the threat seems to have been um you know um averted, um, and and there's a sort of reflection that you know leaders can shape the future, you know, fate is not absolute. So there is that kind of moment, but that's the only insight we get because the rest of it is is frankly a kind of roller coaster of crisis leadership with you know elements of command, delegation, um, you know, um I mean I mean adaptive um adaptive team building, you know, sort of um she sort of is able to you know work with the sort of you know the Arnold Schwarzenegger sort of um T800, I think it is, sort of, you know, Terminator model in Terminator 2. And you know, if you want to draw parallels, say with Star Trek, you know, I think you know, Captain Kirk constantly showed the ability to work with unlikely allies. So, you know, that there is some team building, some adaptive team building, um, and sort of emotional intelligence you've alluded to her, sort of you know, um trying to convince the doctors that she wasn't crazy and that she could um be released from the institution and see her son. And again, you know, sort of quite high emotional intelligence, um, you know, able to build alliances and and sometimes you know to um to to try to get her way through convincing sort of others on her behavior. So so quite quite a sophisticated character, actually, I think for a you know a fictional piece, she's she's quite sophisticated.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah, definitely. And I think you make a good point about the sort of almost building coalitions because we see in Terminator 2, which I actually personally think is a better film than the first Terminator film in terms of seeing what she's like as a leader. I mean, she um she refuse at first, she really refuses to trust 16800 monodulas amega. We see John, who's 10 or 12 at the time, he actually has a lot of empathy towards Montawartenega, despite him being slummyborg, and he's teaching, he's trying to teach him how to smile and he's kind of fleecing and he's teaching him slang whenever it's slam, if anything, stuff is a bit of a robot herself, which understandably, she understandably does not want to the slimybog who tried to kill her 10 years before, you know. I get it. She watches John. And you know, I think in in these worlds, people pay attention to children in a bit of a different way, and she sees how John is with T 800, and she mimics that emotional intelligence, whether or not she is because she actually believes it, or she sees credibility in building the connection with him, which we do see later on in the in the much later films.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah, and I actually see it in that Terminator too as well. Um, there's a moment where you know the Schwarzenegger Terminator, so um the T800 is sort of sacrificing themselves into the sort of melting pot. And there's a moment where they sort of you know touch hands um before you know the terminator descends into the melting pot. So, you know, I think I think that empathy thing lands, but but here's the thing, and I think it's really interesting you've raised it. There is a moment, there is a period um in that film in particular where the task begins to obscure the kind of um the humanity side of it. So there's a sort of moral abyss, I would call it. Um, and in particular, um, where she sort of takes it upon herself to um to go and murder the scientist, you know, the very good-natured scientist, um Miles Dyson. Um you know, she she sort of embarks on this. So I think there's a moment where she's where she's lost, and I think you're right, that sort of all-consuming task mission focus means you begin to lose that kind of moral decision making. And and it's interesting because you know, I've been in leadership um positions operationally, in particular in Afghanistan, um, where there are no clean, easy decisions. Everything has a moral ambiguity. And um, you know, there's a particular model that we use in law enforcement, in particular, of a decision-making model, which actually has ethics and values right at the centre of the decision-making model. So, what it enables under pressure, where mission focus becomes everything, it enables you to use a decision-making model that actually makes you consider ethics and values as part of it. So, all of my keynotes and workshops, you know, focus on this model that leaders can use in situations of uh moral ambiguity to actually make the right decision. And of course, you know, we we all know morally that wasn't a great decision of hers, but you know, she had that mission focus. And it's interesting, I think it was the the sort of you know, the John, the human side of John, and actually to a certain extent, you know, ironically, the sort of T 800 Terminator that actually brings her back to humanity. So so there's a there's an element where she's lost morally and then sort of returns back to kind of humanity, if you like, and gets the kind of the value sense of what it is that she's doing. That's incredibly real. Uh as a leader in positions where there appear to be no clean, clear, unambiguous moral actions. Everything has a downside. Um, it's really important to have mechanisms that allow you to stay focused. So I mean, I mean, for her, she didn't have a model or a tool, but what she had was people around her that readjusted her. And there's a parallel there, I think, for leaders. you know, have a model, have people around you that are your, you know, kind of check-in point that what you're doing is the right thing and you haven't lost your focus on the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

No, exactly. And yeah, I was going to say it's it's until she has a team around her that she is quite throat. Again, based on her understandable experiences from before, um I always say to people, oh, you need you need your Spock and your balloons. You know, this is the much reference because you do need those those anchors and you do need the velocity of thought around you. No, I'm not spending a bit of my money into her Spock or John into Spock. But you know, when I talk to people I emphasize the importance of having different thinking around you because you don't want a load of yes women and men around you. And when you see these personality quizzes going in for teams, you know, to understand if you're a red thinker or a blue thinker you don't want everyone to be a red thinker. You don't want everyone to be a blue thinker. And I was always very skeptical of these things. I thought they're a waste of time, blah, blah, blah. But actually it is incredibly important to have those, the different colour wheel of people around you, which I think we've seen from from Sarah, just from the brief period of time that she spends with John and with T800.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah. I mean I think what's quite interesting, I think for a lot of leaders um when they're having to make decisions under pressure, they tend to engage primarily with their sort of you know system one thinking. This is your automated flight or fight um system. And actually whilst that's important so it's relevant, what's really important you say about the spot, you need to engage your system two thinking which is your logical thinking. But what's quite interesting in the case where Sarah's going after Miles Dyson is actually she's thinking incredibly logically. What she's actually thinking is there's a utilitarian argument for this. I kill one scientist as good as he is, you know, in terms of characterization, he's a good character, you know, an altruistic individual looking to do good who's you know beyond his knowledge that what he's doing is actually doing something bad. So she's from a utilitarian point of view going well I sacrifice one person to save millions. And so it's an incredibly logical actual decision making. And what's kind of weird is that the system one thinking the more emotional thinking is actually bought in by others by John by the Terminator. So it's a kind of reverse of what I tend to see in leaders under pressure is that they tend to be more emotional and not logical. They do need the Spock in their in their phone. And in actual fact you know in in in the workshops that I deliver the Spock is actually the decision making model. That turns you momentarily into Spock and the ability to apply a kind of a logical sequence of thinking but um you know it it's I I I think any leader who's led operationally in really complex and contested um you know arenas will recognize the moral ambiguity of the situation that Sarah finds herself in.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Definitely and I think because she's so mission led I mean I was thinking she's quite strategic and in in a part she is very strategic and she makes sense. But what she doesn't account for I think in that situation is if she did kill miles, of course you know ethically morally an issue could someone else emerge who would create something even worse in the future because I think in one of the Terminator films is it Dark Knight I think it is someone comes back and kills John then another rebel leader um sort of takes his place in the future so to speak. So I think sometimes she is so mission driven and she's strategic for that mission it's clouded everything else around her she's not measuring up all the different scenarios.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah it's um I mean it's interesting because I often see uh what I call paralysis by analysis. So you you you very frequently see leaders prevaricate on making decisions that need to be made in a relatively timely manner because they are overanalyzing um you know sort of what is I just did that yeah so so you you know and and and you can contemplate a whole set of circumstances and uh you know um consequences the military have a great term second and third order effects so this is the impacts beyond the immediate one. So you do try to look at second and third order effects but largely you know as I always point out in in in like my workshops a decision making model is about making a decision not about paralysis by analysis and just analysing it to the point where the opportunity to make the decision goes because you've just missed that opportunity. So um yeah it it is possible to overthink things but sometimes you've just got to act with the information that you've got at the time and and move forward.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Well I was going to say and Sarah doesn't have all the information at all. She has the knowledge of how it all ends so to speak but everything in the middle he has no idea so that which is why she makes decisions like oh I need to kill Miles which again as leaders you know whether it's in business or the military a lot of the time most of the time we have to make decisions where we do lack key bits of information.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah I I mean I mean completely look listen I I you know of all the operational deployments I've done a lot of operational deployments in you know non-permissive countries in very very complex um hostile um both you know physically and diplomatically hostile environments um you know incredibly difficult to to have a kind of full understanding of the total picture and and and I think here's the thing from a leader's point of view is that from a leader clarity beats certainty in those situations. You simply cannot be certain of everything and what people look for is a leader who's got clarity. And I think you know that's the thing about sort of you know Sarah's predicament is that she doesn't has got no certainty about exactly how it ends or where it goes but she's got absolute clarity about what the mission is and how people can deliver as part of that. So you know I think I think from that point of view that's a strong leadership um trait to understand that there is no certainty that you're not going to get there but what you need to do is be clear based on the information that you've got and that's that's very real.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah and I was yeah I was thinking as well I mean that actually makes Sarah Connor she's probably one of the more realistic leaders in the science fiction world compared to a lot of others she doesn't have special powers she isn't in a position of authority she's not military trained I know she sort of over to the moment she does become very snavy so much more psychologically real than a lot of the others like whether she captained or your princess because they've also got this sort of support around them. Whereas December she's got almost whiplash you know she gets people from the future intermittently coming and telling her things and then leaving and she's expected to fill the gap in the middle. Just to go back to what you said about clarity relative certainty and that sort of took me back to my I became a CEO in February 2020 which was obviously a fantastic time just before COVID and I had to make many decisions quickly based on not knowing what would happen you know whether it's financial decisions or operational decisions. But I do think when you explain to people they are a lot they are understanding when you say based on what I have I am making this decision.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah yeah I I mean look I as I you know I was out of my uh military and intelligence work um by COVID and I think as an ops director of a logistics company um the decisions I needed to make in the context of COVID was the closest I've got to to operational decisions that I needed to make um you know in military or intelligence environments. Because you know sometimes you you were balancing things or intention you know the um the the welfare of your staff versus the ability for the company to keep functioning. You know one of them has to give some space because the way to keep people safe is is to tell them to stay at home and not go out but the business collapses. So that so there's a balance so there's nothing clean about the decisions that we as corporate leaders needed to make um in COVID. And I think that is the closest as a corporate leader that I've got to the ambiguity and the lack of certainty that I've had in those military and intelligence environments. Yeah no definitely so would you say go on sorry no go on no so so so I think so I think you know that that that's the realistic part you're you're you're right um you know uh Sarah has no special powers in actual fact she comes from a very humble place in terms of a sort of warrior leader type um but but she sort of gets there sort of through relentless hard work through preparedness as a mission she's sort of forged in the crucible of um you know her foresight so you know she she's built herself I'm guessing in the same way although she's come at it with different resources in the same way that maybe some of the Batman characters have it's been this relentless pursuit of you know no superpowers I mean obviously you know sort of Bruce Wayne had uh a seemingly endless supply of wealth but I mean you you you know he's still built um you know his preparedness and his response um you know um himself so in in many ways maybe a similar type character no no superpowers but no a relentless work ethic yeah and and like we sort of said before but finding people who are useful I mean in Terminator 2 towards the end she goes to a guy I think his name's possibly Diego I can't remember his name but he's got loads of guns like absolutely loads of guns and John even says oh we used to come here when I was little or something and again in one of the later films she goes and I think she clips out with someone someone and it was a it was a connection she had made to help train John.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

So yeah you're right she is sort of the the the common man just without the money but she yeah yes but she is so driven that she finds a way to do it because with with the dog and the Jeep.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Yes exactly so you know there's there's as a finding a way in less than perfect scenarios and operational leadership looks like that.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yes yeah she doesn't let it paralyze her as well I mean if if you knew that your basically you and and the fate of the world based was uh relied on you and your someone or else you know the humanity could be one per 10.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

I mean that could be enough I mean they think she's crazy that could be enough to terrify you to think God it's too much but she steps up to the challenge very quickly I mean she goes through a lifetime of trauma in three days in the first terminator so yeah I mean I I look it's it's difficult I I suppose to sort of bring it into any parallel into into the real world but but in truth um you know she's completely isolated sort of professionally socially you know she's lost the care of her son um into a foster home she's institutionalized um you know she still remains that sort of same driven individual and I think you know the resilience and if we talk about the resilience of a leader the ability to still believe in the mission to still be committed to the mission to you know despite everything being set against you and people being prepared to take away everything is incredibly resilient. So I think yes I mean look it's a fictional piece there are you know heaps of layers of pressure that that no individual in the real world would necessarily be up against but I think it is an object lesson in in in resilience to keep believing in yourself believing in the process and to keep preparing for the process you know there's a there's a scene in isn't there in sort of the Terminator too where she's sort of doing pull-ups on the bed frame to sort of you know ensure that she's physically prepared. So you know to to keep doing this conditioning not knowing whether your moment will ever come let alone whether it's a day away or a year away or whatever to play that you know I think the conversation with the doctor is you said if I behave for six months that I could you know I could see my son. So you know I've behaved and I believe this. So you know what what we what we don't see the narrative tries to sort of guide us in that direction is the amazing resilience to play that long game and keep preparing and not become soft and be ready for that moment. So I mean you know there's a there's a lesson in there isn't there for leaders um to to be looking at the long-term game to have self-confidence in the vision that they've got um and sort of work hard at preparedness um and then wait for the moment absolutely the mental strength she must have I mean over the course of from that first moment right through to when she's older when John even when John dies still committed to the cause and to protecting the the future leaders yeah would you want to work for her or serve under her? Well well I I I think I think it I would be in in total crisis. I think the circumstances in which I'd find myself a foot soldier um working uh you know to Sarah Connor would be a pretty backs against the wall kind of scenario. I've had enough of those in my career. I'd much prefer not to but if I had to I would much prefer to be led by somebody with authenticity with the ability to navigate their way through decision making with a with a moral reference even if they take a moment to get there and is relentlessly you know sort of preparing but also prepared to sacrifice themselves as well. That's the other thing is you know that there's a protector element within this and again you know I'm I'm gonna refer to one of the few genres of sci-fi that I that I know um from from my childhood which is Star Trek um a trait she shares with you know Captain Kirk um to put themselves in jeopardy for the team she puts herself in jeopardy for the future and for others. So to answer your question I would prefer it if the circumstances never occurred where I had to be a follower of Sarah Connor but I could absolutely get behind a leader like that if I had to good well hopefully we won't be in that situation but um no that's good and she is authentic isn't she doesn't pretend no you know she is she's kind of you get what you see which is always what we want from our leaders really. Yeah it is and it's why I like the genre that that you do of um looking at leaders because you can strip away some of these organizational politics and then just look at the behaviors of the leader. And I think it's it's such a good way to be able to sort of drill down without the background noise into actually what what the traits of leadership are and um and and the flaws of leaders as well. So you know incredibly um you know incredibly powerful but also you know and we've had this conversation previously it also links into a much more established genre at looking at lessons of leadership and history through mythology and you can find the parallels with Sarah Connor you know Cassandra had foresight but um you know nobody would would believe her. Atalanta you know abandoned to the wilderness and sort of be you know built themselves into a formidable warrior through kind of necessity um you know Demeter is the is the mother turn protector you can you you you know you you take a character like Sarah Connor and you think well you know is this a big leadership figure but then you you look at it in the context of leadership being about influence um and then you look at it you know through a a a genre of of leadership much more established like mythology and it all sits in that it's really powerful. Yeah especially because Sarah doesn't have any organization behind her in Star Trek you have Starfleet in Star Wars you've got the Empire even the rebellion I mean I know there are rebellion but they do have a bit of structure whereas with Sarah he's just there much like sort of the gate the great Greek heroes yeah I mean I you know it's interesting what she likes a leader I think is um I would say I could get behind that leader. Now there's a different question is what would she be like as a manager? And that would be a different answer wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_01 40:51

I don't think she'd ever trust people we think she'd take a long time to trust people if she was a manager.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah I mean you know they're totally different skills on the I mean there's a yes there's a there's a leadership academic Keith Grint who talks about um that leaders should adapt their style according to the nature of the problem so um critical problems you know time timely you know sort of time critical problems need command you know you basically shout at people and direct them um that's great Sarah Connor can do that um can she collaborate and influence others and build teams yes she she had you know eventually when she decides she wasn't going to kill miles harrison um miles dyson sorry she she gets him on side by convincing him of the future she sides with you know the T800 um sort of terminator so yeah she can absolutely lead can she manage i i don't know I don't yeah I don't yeah I don't know you see if she was put in a sort of a proper structure whether it's military or and I suppose this is about to lead on to our our questions where else she might fit would she would she do well in a in a sort of hierarchy could she take orders yes I think I think she could but I would say that she's you know um let let let let's in a way I'm not comparing Sarah Connor to Churchill but Churchill was a wartime leader um so was a leader oh she was best in crisis so I would say as long as you've got a crisis and you're a wartime leader she'd probably be pretty good don't know how good she'd be in a kind of peacetime environment I don't think there was a career for her back at the diner no no I think safe to say she's moved on from the diner and we have said weirder sentences on this podcast than Sarah Connor is a bit like Churchill um okay just throwing it out there.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Okay. Would she how would she do in a universe this is our multiverse test would she do well well in Star Trek I think I think she I think she could look listen I I I think on the on the one hand you might think Kirk and Sarah Connor are different ends of a spectrum but there is some commonality around them.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

I think they're both um good decision makers. I think um Captain Kirk's decision making is very much influenced by his gut reactionally makes quick decisions Sarah's by foresight but I think probably the the biggest factor they they share is that ability and I've alluded to it already um to build alliances with unlikely allies and the role of protector and ultimately you know prepared to pay the ultimate personal price in that so I think you know as long as the um you know as long as the mission remains sort of quite difficult um and you know crisis driven I think should be quite good. will say um and and you know i i know this is more your genre than mine but what wasn't the sort of um uh that there are sort of a a dark force i forget what it's called within Star Trek sort of directing their activities into some fairly sort of grey areas um is it the directive or I'm I'm I'm oh the prime well there's so there's the prime directive which yes the captains all break so that's you you are not meant to interfere with civilizations that don't have what what speed what capabilities every single Star Trek captain at some point decides to break because whether it's to save people or yeah so so you you know I I pulled that from my 1980s memory so I think you know congratulations um from that point of view so so look I you you know there's then that that's moral ambiguity it's yes oh exactly what at what point do you have to look at the rules and say actually the rules have got it wrong I'm the commander on the ground and nothing actually you know this is from there so so there's some great parallels so I'm gonna say she absolutely could step into the sheets of Captain Kirk.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

I think yeah I think overall she would I think it would take her a bit of time maybe to adapt to having a crew because I think she I do think she's used to working alone so I think that would take time but like you said with the mission at the heart of what she does I think she would think well I've got all these people here I need them and she would sort of she would use them as as needed what about Star Wars would she do well?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

She'd probably be quite a good rebel leader I think fighting against the Empire I mean I mean in a way the parallel's there isn't it well yes yes yeah no exactly yes a well well resourced rebellion and I'm just thinking would she be all right with superheroes yeah yeah with superheroes I'm just thinking of the Avengers they've all got such massive egos she'd probably be quite refreshing yeah yeah I think there's almost as close to zero ego I think in Sarah Consider yeah I think she'd be really refreshing I think they would and I think she's so I mean she's quite um like you wouldn't want to mess with her I think when they would if they would see what she's capable of they would step back and say okay actually yeah let her get on with it I think they'd be quite yeah I think they'd be quite happy with that what would you give her out of 10 our famous leadership multiverse ranking if you had to mark her as a leader out of 10 well I mean I've I've heard some of the tough marking that you and Andrew have done previously and um you know sort of uh I yeah look she's she's a as I said a wartime break break in emergency break glass type leader isn't she so she's she's not for all times um incredibly strong in a crisis um good command and control good collaborative leadership probably not a great manager in a kind of non-crisis situation so from that point of view I'm gonna have to go six um but ultimately I I can live with a leader who's not great in peacetime if they can absolutely nail it when it really matters. So yeah I'm I'm gonna go six.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yeah I was thinking six yeah six six and a half I think she um I think she's very tough um but I do think underneath she does say soften she doesn't really softening she does if if she like when she was listening to John about being slightly more empathetic towards T 800 like I think she initially would have a very very tough outer shell but as you would work with her I think she would I I say soften it's not a sort of negative word but I think she would soften yeah yes I'm certain yeah great well Stuart this has been really fascinating it's been such an interesting discussion about Sarah Connor and hearing about all your different experiences as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Fantastic I've really enjoyed it well it's a such a refreshing lens to look at leadership um so different I'm really enjoyed it and uh look forward to hearing your other episodes I'm uh I'm an avid listener now so um I look I look forward to um to learning more about leadership through this fascinating lens.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Oh well thank you so much and um yes andrew will be back next week next week we are doing Spider-Man and we're calling it into the Spider-Verse so we're gonna be looking at the different Spider-Mans Spider-M out there because there are many different forms um so yes we will Andrew will be back next week um to listeners please keep listening um we have a website leadershipmultiverse.com and please rate us um wherever you get your podcasts so thanks Stuart again great to see thank you enjoyed it