Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse

This week Andrew and Ellen swing into the Spider-Verse to examine Peter Parker, Miles Morales, Gwen Stacy and Spider-Man Noir: heroes, emerging leaders, reluctant mentors, and different versions of what responsibility can become.

They explore whether Spider-Man is really a leader at all, asking when responsibility becomes over-functioning, when sacrifice becomes martyrdom, and what happens when talented young people are used but not properly nurtured. Along the way, they discuss mentoring, reverse mentoring, burnout, succession planning, kindness, cynicism, emotional honesty, and why “with great power comes great responsibility” is not much help if nobody teaches you how to carry it.

A layered, multiversal and surprisingly human leadership case study.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Well, hello, and welcome to the leadership multiple. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Oh, Eddie, I've been away for ages. I've I've missed I I've been away for ages. I missed uh well, I I say I missed, I missed recording two cracking episodes, but I enjoyed listening to them. I think what you did uh the episodes that you recorded last couple of weeks were were brilliant. Well done. They were excellent. I really enjoyed them. I really enjoyed them. Yeah, I thought I thought the the episode with um Elisa around Katniss Everdeen was was was was splendid. I really enjoyed it. And I thought what what you did was with Stuart Barker and Sarah Carmer, uh again, I really enjoyed them. So yeah, thanks for recording those. I appreciate you doing them without me.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

No, not at all. Thank you. You were very much missed though. Um Stuart even said it was like he knew you after listening to several episodes. So you were very much missed, but I am very excited for this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Well, what can I say? Do you know what can I say with with with great power comes great responsibility?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Getting out of the way. Get out of the way now.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

It's like this, it's like this podcast, really. It's like it's how I view this recording this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Oh, so we are doing uh Spider-Man, Spider People, Spider-Man's, men, all of them.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

I found this, I find this one incredibly complex. Yeah, this is why this is possibly when I'm you know doing the research into this and just sort of gathering my thoughts on it, it's like it's it's as complex as any of the ensemble pieces we've done because there are just so many different versions of the same character or spin-outs of from the same character. I found it really challenging to kind of get my head around um who who who we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

I know, and and is is he even a leader? So I found myself asking at various points.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Well, that's a really, really good question. And I think I think the short answer is yeah, I think Spider-Man is a leader, but I think it depends on where you're looking, where in the Spideyverse, uh, and who in the Spideyverse you're look you're looking at, which version you're looking at. I don't think, I mean, I don't think if we get right into it, I don't think the Tom Holland um version of Spider-Man is a leader. In fact, I think they've deliberately written him so to be the mentee. Well, they they haven't explicitly written him to be the mentee, uh not the mentor. Uh, you know, that and that we've explored that relationship several times, you know, the one he has with Tony Stark and Iron Man. So I don't think he particularly, particularly in the Marvel um, you know, in the Avengers ensemble pieces, he is he does not demonstrate leadership uh particularly well. That said, I think if the the standalone Tom Holland movies, he's probably a stronger character, but I still don't think he's got quite the leadership credentials that you see with um Toby McGuire or with you know Andrew Garfield, or indeed, or indeed some of the other um, you know, uh characters, you know, like the Miles Morales or the Gwen Stacy characters. It's it's it's a really interesting, it's quite complicated, the dynamic in the whole Spideyverse.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Gosh, I know. And then if we introduce the various Peter Parkers in the Spider-Verse films, there's obviously different versions of them. So there's the sort of grown one that interacts with Miles, who would you say arguably could be a bit of a leader?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yes, yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Um but no, I would agree, and I think it touches on a point me and Stuart discussed in the last episode about do you need authority or a position or do you need a person to be in a position of power to be a leader? Because at no point is Peter Parker in any authoritative position.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Uh no, but that's probably true of an awful lot of uh a lot of the characters that we've explored. Um you know, I'm thinking of um well in the early sort of in the early seasons of um The Boys, you know, Huey's not in a particularly strong leadership position, but his lead strength of leadership character just shines through. So I know I think it's a fair that's a fair point. That's a fair point.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah, like with Mando, actually, I think we had that conversation around the Mandalorian, didn't we? Because he's not in any elevated position, particularly, he just seems to pick up followers. Um, and I would argue that in I think is it oh the last standalone Tom Holland Spider-Man film, this is gonna get so complicated, the one with all of them. Yeah, I would argue we do see him start to become somewhat of a leader, yes. Um, with you know, even within his friends, so with Ned with MJ, he is sort of, I mean, they are following him and he is sort of leading them, and he he does coordinate with um Andrew Garfield and Toby Maguire. I would say that I would see we see him as an emerging leader, maybe in I don't know, the next film, which I think is out in July. Perhaps we'll see that develop more, but I would totally agree with you in terms of the timelines. In the early ones, he is not a leader, and actually, I I take some beef with how he's treated. I was thinking about this. Um I'm probably gonna go on a bit of a rant.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Go for it, go for it, you do you, it's cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

But he is he's 14 in the events of Captain America Civil War, which is when we first see him in the MCU, and he is given this incredible tech, he is thrust into a battle with superheroes ultimately, which you know Tony Stark's quite happy to do. And then when he messes up, they all say, Oh, actually, you're a kid, oh we forget you're a kid, oh we'll take this away from you. So it's like it's all well and good, you know, they want his powers, but then when he messes up, as a 14-year-old would do, it's then held, it's then used against him, you know, and I think that's really unfair. And I was thinking about sort of younger people who want to move into those sorts of positions. It's like, well, they want fresh people want fresh thinking, they want fresh insights until things go wrong and your age gets used against you.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

I think that's no, no, I think that's really I think that's really in insightful and fair. I hadn't really thought about it from that perspective. But yes, as you're talking, perhaps the case study that is Spider-Man, the case study that is Peter Parker, is the potential leader, the emerging leader. And actually, you know, he does embody that. He does embody potential, probably the same way that Anakin, Skywalker, embodied potential. Yeah, and the Jedi threw it away, they didn't guide him, they didn't support him, and he went, you know, completely uh well off the rails. I suppose it depends. Depends if you're on the side of the empire or not. Um but but but actually, you know, I think probably the difference to it is that there is there is a definite mentor in relationship between Tom Holland, Spider-Man, and Tony Stark. But I think you are spot on. I think there is a lesson in nurturing or how not to nurture the leadership qualities in young people. Because I I think Spider-Man took Peter Parker across all of the Spidey verses, he is probably, I think he's the most distinctly human um superhero. Uh, you know, he is because he's an awkward teenager. He's he's, you know, and I wouldn't wish being a teenager on anybody, you know, it's just the most awful time of your life, and he's bumbling through it and he's trying and he's dealing with all his all his human hormones and emotions, and then all his spider hormones and emotions. I mean, he is the most distinctly human and uh of of any of the well, latterly the Marvel universe, but you know, back in the day, this well, there wasn't really that many in the Sony uh universe, but you know, and I think actually so I that that makes him utterly relatable, utterly relatable. You know, he's he's awkward, he's he's he's tired, he's broken sometimes, you know. I mean, he's clearly he's clearly impacted by the death of his uncle Ben. You know, he carries a burden, he carries an emotional burden, a personal burden, and we've spoken about this, you know, about lots of different leaders in in the multiverse, um, in the leadership multiverse. You know, Pike, I'm thinking about Captain Pike, you know, he carries a really strong emotional burden, a secret that actually strengthens his his his character, his leadership character. And I think with the with the you know the right evolution of Spider-Man's of Peter Parker's character, that actually that emotional burden, that that guilt that he carries should be, could be, should be, you know, turned into you know his his real strength, you know. Um because he is resilient. You know, I mean, good God, uh he gets beaten up physically, he is absolutely battered. Um but then you know emotionally and reputationally, he gets he he is you know he is beaten constantly. You think in you know Spider-Man Norway home, you know, the amount of personal loss that he he absorbs and yet he still chooses not to become cruel. You know, he still he still chooses not to be um or not you know not to be you know mean about it, which you know you know, and so I think you know you know, coupled with the fact that he has a really strong moral compass, I mean, good god, he's almost it's it's not quite as nauseating as uh Captain America's moral compass. But there are there are moments when you think, oh come on, fella, be a teenager, stop being a superhero. But but you know, I think if you look at those, you know, combine those from strong moral compass, resilience, relatability, he absolutely doesn't worry about his own image, you know. He he's emotionally driven, but you know, after you know, but he doesn't worry about how he looks or how he is in front of people. He wants he he wants to relate to people. Those are really distinct, you know, we've identified these over and over, distinct leadership strengths. And actually, uh in in in a case study of mentoring those those characteristics, is he done a dis is he did is he done a disservice?

SPEAKER_00 12:25

I was just thinking, I mean, as I was reviewing everything that I know about him, I never think of him like until now. I did not think of him like that. I just thought of him as you know, the kid who got bitten by a spider, swings around, fighting crime, that's it. But actually, there is so much more depth to him than that. He, I mean, and he says it himself, he is the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. That is his MO, and he sticks by that throughout all the films. And you're right, he's you know, we I mean, I think we think of leaders as influencing huge groups and millions of people, but actually he is changing the world one person at a time, you know, whether it's the woman he stopped getting mugged, the guy he stopped stealing the car. You know, he and he doesn't care. Well, I think he I think he slightly sometimes does care that he's not part of the bigger picture, but he still does it, he still does those small acts of kindness, he never thinks he's above them, and he really wants to be part of a team, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

And that's actually true of the Marvel world, but also the the Spideyverse as well. He actually wants to be part of you know, he operates alone. His whole origin story is you know, you know, as you say, the the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. But actually, he's chomping at the bit to be part of the Avengers. You know, he wants to be part of that team, he wants to be part, you know, he wants to contribute, he wants to work in tandem, he wants to partner up, and I think that's again, you know, it's uh you're right. The the piece about the way they uh he's all he's sometimes belittled, I think.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, yeah, no, completely. I mean, yesterday I was actually watching uh the the first Tom Holland standalone one, so it's after the events of civil war. I can't remember the names, and um, you know, he's he's back going to school and he's texting Happy, you know, Happy Hogan, and um it's just a stream of hey Happy, is there anything I can do to help? Hi Happy, I'm out of school, and that is not nurtured by the Avengers again. It's like they all they use him, and as a result, is that why he tries to take on too much when he does? Because I do think he takes on too much responsibility at times, and I think it does not help with the guilt that he sort of carries around with him. Um, but like you say, oh go on, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

No, go on, go on, you finish off, go on.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

No, I was gonna say, you know, but if that had been nurtured and encouraged and fostered, yeah, you know, he might be not such a burden to Peter Parker.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

You gotta look at the role models that he's working with, and actually, you know, I yeah, uh the uh so often we oh my god, this is resonating so much because so often, you know, this I mean, for years now we've been banging on about you know multi-generational workforces and the difference between you know Gen X and Boomers and Gen Z and Millennials, and you know, it'll be Gen Alpha coming in soon enough, and you know, and you talk about it. Um, I I find that you know, in leadership context, people talk a good game, and I've seen this, I've seen this when really, yes, naive, but positive energy comes into and what I mean by naive, I mean inexperienced, inexperienced in the workforce, but positive energy comes into the space, it meets deep cynicism. Um, you know, that's it's such a tragedy, and I actually think that is one of the uh I think it is testament to his strength of character that he avoids that that particular tragedy, that he doesn't get subsumed into the culture of the Avengers. Because actually, the culture of the Avengers is deeply bloody cynical, it is deeply negative. It's yeah, it's sapped, it's sapping. And um, and actually, and and and and I think again, as a case study, so what they could be learning from him is that look, you know, they and I think maybe this is as much to do with the writers as anything else. You know, I don't like how he's sometimes portrayed as this, you know, apples puppy dog, you know, because actually he's a highly talented, skilled, strong, clever individual. Because actually, he's a really clever school kid.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, he's really intelligent across all of them, all of the various versions of Peter Parker. Yeah, I mean, that's part of the point of him. He's incredibly smart. He interns with um is it Norman Osborne, Green Goblin, or that's right, yeah. That's how that's how he gets written in the first place, isn't one of those uh laboratories? Yeah, exactly. No, absolutely. And actually, as you were saying that, is he possibly the kindest Avenger? I mean, I'm just thinking I wouldn't say and I wouldn't say like Black Widow's not unkind, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that about her, but you know, if we're talking about kindness and sort of goodness, true goodness, even Captain America is not like Peter Parker.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Good God, no, good god, no, not at all. Not at all. No, I I I get that a lot of that is to do with experience, and it is to do with um yeah, it is to do with, you know, uh people's you know lived experiences, lived backgrounds, what they've gone through, etc. It does, it does shape you, it does, it does mould you. It's true, that's what that's what shapes you into becoming a leader, but it's part of your obligation, part of your responsibility, part of your commitment as a leader is to recognize the potential in the team that is coming through behind you, and to and to and to lean into those individuals' strengths and qualities, and they don't do that. And I think as a result, you're right about Peter Parker, Spider-Man, he over functions. Good God, the amount that he assumes everything is his responsibility, which is really unhealthy in a leader that the pressure becomes so great that I mean at one point he actually loses his powers. So, I mean, you know, um, you know, burnout isn't a character flaw, it's a systems warning. And actually, you know, again, if you're looking at him, you'd be like, Well, actually, this guy is carrying far, far too much responsibility on his shoulders, and he really cannot, he doesn't know how to delegate. He carries, he works alone in the in his standalone movies early on, he carries those secrets with him. Now, yes, in a superhero context that makes him heroic, in a leadership context, that does not make him effective.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

No, absolutely not. And I mean, you know, even just if you look at, like you say, with his overfunctioning, he goes to school from like what eight till three, and then he spends his evenings into the night fighting crime till midnight. He is exhausted both psychologically and physically.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that is he probably is probably because he's a teenager, he's not quite burned out, but he's not far off it. He's not far off it, actually. And you see it in the in in all the movies. If we just look, if you looked at every single movie, that is the that is the the story arc. Loads of energy, loads of energy, loads of energy, crash, and then bounce back.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

And actually, thinking about it, is he the only Avenger who obviously up until the last film, is he the only one who's kept his identity secret?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Um, I suppose um Hulk uh he he keeps himself he keeps himself a secret, doesn't he? He doesn't um he doesn't really go about shouting about who he is. But I yeah, yeah, although he's probably the anomaly.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Um yeah, but I just think again that would add, I mean, that adds to the burnout and the sort of carrying all the guilt, you know. I think Aunt May and Ned well Ned, oh Ned finds out actually, Ned finds out, doesn't he? He's friends, but everyone else does not, which probably adds to the weight. Whereas, I don't know, perhaps if uh Tony Stark had created a psychologically safe environment for Peter to talk about that sort of thing. So obviously, we famously see Tony Stark say, you know, I am Iron Man, those are some of the things that the Avengers should have been talking about with Peter.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Mm-hmm. And I think as a result, he confuses sacrifice with leadership, he treats his own happiness as expendable, and that is a that is a real danger. That's a real danger of the servant leader model. Um you know, and we've seen this several times in other cutters, we've explored, you know, it becomes martyr. Martyrdom, um, you know, rather than you know, carrying that burden, sacrificing yourself for the sake of your team or for your colleagues or your contemporaries, you know, that that isn't leadership. That is just yeah, I mean, that is well, at worst it's martyrdom. At best, it's a level of sacrifice that nobody should be making. And so he's that's I think where his, and I think, yeah, and of course I've well, we're recording this about uh when's the next one out? Is it 31st of July? I think we're recording this for 16th of June. So I mean it's about six weeks till the new one comes out. I've seen the trailers for it. The lad is burdened to say the least, from what I've seen in the trailers. And you know, and I think that's such a that's a terrible that's a terrible tragedy for him. More than more than his uncle, his uncle Ben dying. Yeah. It's that's that's a catalyst for something. That's a catalyst for him, but I don't think that's the tragedy of um of Spider-Man. I think it's his inability to share his burden and and his inability to determine the difference between sacrifice and leadership. That for me is the real tragedy of of the character.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Yeah, because ultimately he he sort of commits the ultimate sacrifice, doesn't he? So that his friends can live their lives. So that doesn't he say he wishes that no one knew he was Spider-Man in the end, and basically no one no one knows him in the last film. I think that's how that's how he seems to be planning out, yeah, yeah, which is the ultimate sacrifice, um, which presumably won't work out or he'll have to go back and undo just just a guess. Um but again, if he had had some guidance on that, I mean Doctor Strange, for goodness sake, Doctor Strange has got the kind of ultimate potential to give him a bit of advice and mentoring before he goes and splits the timelines and the multiverses, which is how we end up with three Spider Man men in the first place. But no one is concerned with Peter, like you say, it's almost like he's seen as this little annoyance.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah. Yeah. It saddens me, and it saddens me because I see it in the work environment every day. Young people ignored or or uh well at best ignored and often you know dismissed. And that that I think is a terrible, terrible way to to treat any anybody, anybody anyway, but you know, when you we're talking about leadership, and actually, you know, uh an obligation of leadership is to nurture the potential in others, and it it it upsets me when I see the when I see yeah, it does upset me, it annoys me when I see Peter Parker being treated like that in in in and I think it is that they're not able to differentiate between Peter Parker and Spider-Man. Yeah, Peter Parker is an awkward teenage boy. God, it was horrendous being a teenage boy, it was awful. Um but um but he's Spider-Man, and yeah, you know, in the moments of you know, civil war and um, you know, when they're fighting Thanos and everything, you know, in game and everything, it's like actually he's Spider-Man. So treat him like Spider-Man. Don't treat him like the awkward teenager who you're not really trusting. It's yeah, it's it's an interesting, it's an it's a really interesting sort of case study in I think where yeah where where leadership falls down and does an individual disservice.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

It it also shows, I mean, a big gap in succession planning. I mean, I say succession planning in the Avengers, but actually that can be translated to the workplace as well. I mean, with Spider-Man, they've got such an opportunity that he comes in when he's 14, you know, and the rest of them by the end of um endgame, you know, most of them have retired or gone off or died. And so the one bit of continuity could be Peter Parker, and that is such an opportunity that they could have helped mould him instead of ultimately dismissing him. And I think we see that in the workplace a lot. It's you know, the oh, we've always done things this way, it's the the reluctance to to listen to the next generation and to actually think about some reverse mentoring. I'm really big on reverse mentoring, like you said, when we've got what five generations in the workplace for the first time ever, we can all learn so much from each other. I mean, mentoring is not just a top-down exercise, or it should not be, in my opinion. You know, Peter Parker is a clever guy. I mean, the Avengers could learn a lot from him, but it is such a missed opportunity, and and we really see that in the workplace now.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Yeah, I agree. I agree, but what's really interesting, however, is that well, I mean, it's all really interesting, that's not intelligent. That's such a fascinating uh trying to bore you. Yeah, that was really that was really quite dull, actually. No, no, no. What is also interesting, what is also interesting, however, within that context, you know, we spent a lot of time how talking about how they've you know the mar you know, the the Avengers have done him a uh a disservice, and the writers of the Avengers are did him a disservice. But what's really interesting is if you then step into the spider-verse and then you look at the relationship between Peter and Miles Morales, well then Peter, you know, is is a you know is working to be a strong mentor to Miles, um, you know, in that universe, which I think is a really you know interest in the different writers have have looked at I don't know, maybe I'm maybe we're being too clever about this, but have the writers looked at it and thought, actually, yeah, I know no such thing. Um have you know, have they looked at it and said, actually, you know, we you know we you know we've not exploited that dynamic enough, you know, that kind of leadership potential potential of Peter Parker. Because actually, what we I think I think Miles Morales is a much stronger emerging leader. I think the way he's written, I think the way he what we see in Miles Morales is a far more authentic leader as a result. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Oh, absolutely. I'm a massive Miles Morales fan, by the way. I only just discovered him sort of six months ago. Um shame. Um, no, but I totally I totally agree. And I think whilst the Peter Parker in that version is somewhat not clumsy, I mean a bit I think he starts off as fairly selfish because he just sort of wants to get back to his universe. But I think he very quickly realizes the potential that Miles has, because the kind of theme from those those films, and I actually think it's said um in you know, you know how Stanley made made cameos in all of the big films, um and he sells Miles a Spider-Man costume and he says anyone can wear the mask, and I think that it's not everyone should be Peter Parker, it's not every Spider-Man should be Peter Parker, it's anyone can wear the mask, and it's about developing that identity. And I think Peter realizes that really quickly when he realizes as well that Miles is not like him. Miles has powers that Peter doesn't, you know, he turns he turns invisible, which I mean, and that in itself, I think again highlights the kind of differences in the appreciation of you know, and we talked about it a bit with with Mando, you know, you don't have to be a mentor, you don't have to, he doesn't have to be force sensitive to be Grogu's mentor, you know, he can mentor him in other ways, and I think it's the same for Peter and Miles.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Oh, I agree. I think symbolically the right does, I think, yeah, use that plus the venom strike. I think they use those.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Oh, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

I think that I think they use those sort of symbolically to differentiate between the two because you're right. I think Miles only becomes truly effective when he stops trying to be Peter and he becomes what he is, you know. So he's not trying to he's not trying to emulate the guy. He's not trying to say, oh, you know, I'm gonna be the same as you, or I'm gonna be better than you, but I'm gonna be different. And I'm gonna be but I want to be just as effective, I want to be just as impactful. And I think um, and I do think, yeah, going back to this theme about um you know leadership potential, I think it does demonstrate that new leaders, uh, you know, I think we need to be better at recognizing they bring capabilities that the old model doesn't necessarily recognise or value. And actually, you know, in in the Spider-Verse, to a degree, to a degree, Peter Parker represents the old universe, the old way of being Spider-Man, the old superhero ethos. And actually, you know, Miles Morales brings a very, very different um uh perspective. And I, you know, and he refuses. I think you know, he he's really good, perhaps somewhat frustratingly sometimes, depending on where you're at. He's you know, he's really good at challenging those kind of inherited assumptions, you know, challenging the status quo. He doesn't accept the spider society's rigid belief that certain tragic events have to happen. You know, he wants to challenge, he wants to challenge the dominant system, even when the system is full of experienced people. Now, that again is often misinterpreted as, and you've heard it, you've seen it, oh you know, young upstarts, who the hell do you think you are coming in? You're telling me how it's done, etc. etc. Again, you know, how you handle, how you receive feedback from newer members of the team, you know, as you say, in a reverse mentoring context, for example, how you receive that is it demonstrates, I think, the credibility and the quality of your leadership style. If you can't receive it, if you can't listen and hear it, respond to it, use it, then you're not really a very good leader. You're not a leader at all. If you can't accept that new people are coming into your environment, they are challenging, they're doing it for a reason. Um, hopefully that reason is because they want to see things improve. But if you're only ever receiving something as negative criticism, then uh, you know, that that tells me that you're not emotionally open. And actually, one of the things that Miles is again, if you talk about his leadership qualities, he's he's really open emotionally. Yeah, you know, he constantly looks for connection. You know, he's not just about competence, you know, his connection with his relationship with his parents, with Gwen, with you know, Peter Parker. That those relationships are central to his leadership development. And I think you know, that's something that's almost the complete opposite to to uh well, Gwen and Peter and and Miles' parents, they nurture that. Whereas I think in the old you know, the old Spideyverse, that that that need for can human connection isn't nurtured for Peter Parker.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

No, I think I think you're totally spot on, and I think that relates to as well. We talk about these heroes and leaders being products of their time. And when was Spider-Man written? I mean, Spider-Man was big in what the 80s. Um, I don't know if you've written before that.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Well, let me think now. Uh, because I mean, I don't know, it's before that, because I mean, well, I think 1960s, it first came out uh '62, I'm gonna say. Yeah, it is, it's 1962. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah. So and so I was thinking because I think that some of the oldest cartoons were like the early 80s, which is what I was thinking of.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

But you wouldn't you wouldn't remember the 70s TV show Spider-Man, Spider-Man, Spider Man, and it was just some bloke with a camera turned you know 90 degrees, some block putting on the floor.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Throwing out like Halloween cobwebs from his wrists.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Oh my god, it was I loved it. I loved it. I used to oh Saturday afternoons. I used to love it. Go on, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Um that was made me think of the Batman ones as well. But yeah, so I mean that Peter Parker is very much probably a product of 60s, 70s, 80s writing, right? When you're sort of the loaned or the fairly loned superhero saving everyone, whereas Miles was written, I think uh early 2010s, if I'm not mistaken, very much more about inclusivity, diversity, which we see in the into the spider-verse um films. I mean, in the the spider, what is it called? The spider world, you know, there's hundreds of spidey people, there's a spider cat, you know, and that is infinite, like you said. I mean, maybe that's not the perfect setting, and I know that Miles clashes with, I think it's in Miguel, um, I can't remember which Spidey Miguel is. You know, there are clashes, and Miles questions it, but that in itself is such a wildly different place to develop as a superhero as a teenager than Peter Parker, who has had to navigate most of it alone or with people who continually throw his mistakes in his face and attribute it to youth.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

But I think Peter Parker, Toby Maguire, Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, Spider-Man, they are distinctly Generation X. Miles Morales is distinctly, you know, Gen Z, Generation Z. And and the Tom Holland character, he sits in an awkward space between the two. I think. I mean, I think millennials.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

We're all in that awkward space, wouldn't know. Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Well, I'm I don't know. I'm not a millennial. Are you are you in the I am, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, oh, constantly. It's the only space I'm in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Well, perhaps, perhaps that is a fair. Then, you know, because I think what you're describing is spot on, you know. I think they are. I think you're right. The writers of the writers have in yeah, the 2010s, uh, you know, and latterly in the early 2020s, when they've been writing this character. And I think, yeah, it is a it is a far different, he's he's navigating a far more complex world than Peter Parker is navigating. Definitely back in the day when, you know, he's he's you know, he's you know, back in the well, but yeah, back in the 60s when he's written, but then in the 90s uh and the early noughties when you know the the Toby Maguire and the Andrew Garfield um versions came out. Uh yeah, I think I think it's an interesting sort of representation of how you know an emerging leader is navigating a far more complex dynamic than than than I was when I started, you know, out in in the workplace. It is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Yeah, and I think that nicely comes to as well the influence of Gwen Stacy, Ghost Spidey.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

No, Spider.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Sorry, Spidey, I like I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah, ghost ghost spidey. Yeah, you're not you're not talking to three on the ghost spidey, uh, yeah, ghost spider. Uh no, actually, I I'm gonna argue, yeah. I actually think she is the most highly competent and emotionally complex of in in of all the spideyverse uh Khaled does. I think she I think she's and I think she's and how often do we see this? How often have we explored this dynamic um, you know, uh between you know women in the workplace and men in the workplace, and how women are perceived and men are perceived, and how women demonstrate their leadership and men demonstrate the leadership. And I absolutely think that she has she has a level of emotional depth um that exceeds that of Peter Parker and Miles Morales. I think she's technically, you know, excellent, and I think her independence is is just you know, I think I think you really see her leadership potential explicit, I think, over you know, the other iterations of Peter Parker and Miles Morales. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah, absolutely. I actually liken her to Wonder Woman. Um, I mean, we talked a lot with Wonder Woman about how she can she can relate and speak to every member of the Justice League, whether it's Bruce Wayne being arrogant and throwing money at things, speaking to Superman, to reassuring is it Cyclops?

SPEAKER_01 39:31

I think you said like the human, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yeah, yeah. And really she's almost like a she's in in the Spider-Verse, she's very much like a bridge builder. You know, she's connects with Miles, she really challenges uh what's called Miguel. She can put together a team, she can recruit people, you know, she travels across the various multiverses as well. You know, she doesn't command people, she's just she's a collaborative leader, I suppose. Again, much like Wonder Woman.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yeah, I agree, I agree. I and and it the the the synergy, yeah, right. The synergy between her and wonder, but I also see traits of um Black Widow, um, yeah, you know, um General Leia, you know, or Senator Leia or Princess Leia. Um but you know, uh, yeah, but I do think, and actually, I think both her and Miles, I think, um, well, Miles, I think, really experiences imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Uh oh, absolutely, oh totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

And that is a classic, that is a classic challenge for any leader. I mean, emerging leaders, seasoned, you know, experienced professionals, you know, it's a real challenge. I I don't think that Gwen experiences imposter syndrome, but but I do think her tendency to isolate herself, um, you know, makes her um makes you know and uh makes it difficult to connect with her. I think people who are, you know, what do I mean by that? I do because I don't want to be too damning of her, but because I'm not, but I think she's very guarded, she's very guarded, she wants to protect herself, I understand that, but then she keeps important truths from Miles in particular, you know, and and that can that can damage trust.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

And yeah, sorry, go on, go on.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Well, I just no, I was just gonna say it damages trust, and actually, you know, trust is the most fundamental, um most fundamental characteristic of any leadership relationship.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Yeah, no, I would I would agree, yeah, I'd agree, and I I think in a way she is actually a better traditional leadership case study than Peter Parker is. I think if we look at Peter, he's if we're gonna call him a leader, which I th I think we are, possibly, he's not a leader in the traditional sense, whereas she she is. I mean, you know, trusting people, holding things back. I mean, we've talked about that a lot with many of the other leaders that we've we've talked about, and you know, her arc, it's not about being sort of brave or or her identity, you know, she's got those aspects of leadership down, she's good at those. But yeah, it is it is the trust aspect, and and maybe I don't is that because is she more impacted by the deaths in her timeline? Possibly are they more formal? Um, I mean, we talked you said earlier about Uncle Ben's death impacting Peter, but not being the the main driver, is that I mean is that the main thread, the main thread for his character, yeah. Yeah, whereas I think with Gwen, I I think the deaths in her timeline are um which you would relate more to not trusting someone, and I think she sort of even alludes to it a bit when she introduces herself um in the first Spider-Ver film.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Yeah, I mean that's this is it. I mean, you know, talented people who've been hurt, you know, can become self-reliant to the point where you know it it it borders well to the point of loneliness, you know. It um and I and I because I think she has a difficulty, or rather, let me not not difficult. I think she has a hair, I think one of her problems is she delays difficult honesty. She often knows more than she is letting on. Um again, she withholds that information to avoid pain. But I actually think what that you know that does is it, you know, and we see this again, we see this time and time again in the in the multiverse and in real and in real life, you know, that avoidance eventually makes the rupture much worse than it than than it. perhaps would or could or should be. So I do think, yeah, I think I think you're right that I think her leadership style is impacted by her uh her personal backstory. Probably far more it is far more um potent than for her than it is for Peter Parker.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Yeah and she does just thinking back to the the first meeting between her and Miles she is I don't know if cold is too strong a word she is frosty with him um I think Peter warms up to him quite a lot but she does keep people at a distance um until sort of probably until right at the very end when Miles almost you know I would say that Miles is very good at forming relationships with people and I think she to her credit you know I think Miles proves that it's worth having relationships with people.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Yeah yeah because I think she has depth oh totally yeah oh yeah yeah yeah I'm not saying her her frostiness is lack of depth I think it's fear yeah I think so fear of losing people you know yeah um and that's a real challenge we see in leadership teams you know um you know or you know I you know people who are you know worried about losing the high performer in their team well actually you you can worry long and hard about that it's gonna happen when you know it's gonna happen you're gonna lose people and but actually you see it often when people are worrying about that type of thing that they they become prohibitive in their leadership style or you know or or or or fail to or fail to trust and so actually I I yeah I think I think she's very much in that kind of in that vein.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

It's yeah and then you end up making decisions kind of driven by fear which I don't I don't think we see too much with Gwen I think she's got I think she develops quite a lot of self-awareness quite quickly I'm not saying she she lacks it at all but I think we do see her grow as the films go on.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yeah I agree I agree I agree I think that's true of all of them actually I think that's true of all of them her and Miles in particular I think Peter I still think Peter is burdened with uh Gen X writing I think in a millennial the millennial crises I think he's still burdened by that but but look if we I think this there's there is a version of Spider-Man that we've not that we've not discussed in this because the greatest generation if we're talking about generations the greatest generation Spider-Man Spider-Man noir my god this is this is intense i've i've been watching it in black and white yes i did as well yeah and i i i think that it adds a whole layer of um of uh subtlety to to the story that i think you i i don't think you would get if you were watching it in colour i know you couldn't you know you can watch it in either can't you you can watch it in black and white or colour but actually I think um the fact that the whole character is built around shadow ambiguity you know um atmosphere I think watching it in black and white is the only way to do it you know but yeah I mean yeah I felt like I was watching Casablanca with Spider-Man in that's how I felt but what do we think about what do we think about um well he he is when Peter Parker loses all hope that is in my opinion Spider-Man noir yeah yeah what do you think yeah when he kind of gives into when he gives into his tragedy yeah yeah yes well well again again defined by the tragedy of his is it what uh wife or girlfriend dying mm-hmm mm-hmm yes he's not um he's not a shiny or optimistic version of uh he makes Gwen look like uh like like a like she's smiling all the time yeah yeah yeah I mean he he he definitely um you know he's definitely got grit he's definitely uh you know he's he's certainly focused on um you know he well how's the best way to describe it he probably he is the decisive leader you would want in a crisis um you know he doesn't he doesn't do long workshopping you know about or speeding groups or committee cycles you know um you know he's very much uh you know uh immediate here's here's danger acts that's valuable when speed matters but actually you know uh yeah you know when the building is on fire I totally want him to be leading the team but actually do I want him running the organization once the once the fire is out I don't know I don't know yeah he he's so cynical um I mean talk about experience wearing you down my god I mean I'm not saying our leaders should be sort of you know constantly skipping around but you need to have them more positive than he is um because you know I mean uh give Peter Parker this I'd say he's fairly hopeful I'd say all of the other spider people are hopeful um whereas with with Spider Noir he's just got the hope beaten out of him um he's pretty yeah I mean he's principled he's got conviction I'll give him that um but you know it is I mean no wonder it's black and white he is literally such a a dark character do you like do you like him yes and no yes I like him actually I like the way he's written I like this I purely from an entertainment perspective I like the cynicism um I I think it's a fresh take on it uh I mean he is Spider-Man noir it's supposed to be uh you know he's not just a 1930s Spider-Man he's quite a distinct um iteration of it so I I get that I I I I like that I like that um I like the black and white I think but but but actually and but I do think yeah I think if you're looking at from a leadership perspective uh I think the cynicism is exhausting I think you if you work in a team where you know I I'm not getting fairness to the character he doesn't he doesn't look to be a leader he doesn't want to be a leader um but I think you know but I think you work with somebody who is deeply cynical healthy cynicism okay cool skepticism skepticism is okay is okay but actually you know and a sense of realism is needed in any leadership um space because actually we all know the dangers of the overoptimistic leader um you know uh you know we speak I spent a lot of time with boards talking about the overoptimistic chief executive you know the individual who's not painting over the cracks but painting a picture to either make life easier or to you know not be discovered or or whatever you know but actually you know overoptimism can be as dangerous as deep cynicism but this it cynicism is exhausted and you will quickly wear your you will tie you become tiresome and you will wear out your team and everybody around you and it will infect everybody around you and it's interesting it's gonna kind of come in full circle to that piece about Peter Parker not Tom Holland it's Peter Parker being exposed to the cynicism um of the Avengers I think uh it is a wonder that he doesn't you know become subsumed with it um and I think how you said it is you know he is Spider-Manoir is the version of Peter Parker who is subjected to that subjected to his tragedy subjected to his demons and gives into it and subjected to a culture that sucks him into that and clearly that's who Spider-Manoir is and that's not a good place. I mean if we were just doing an episode of Spider-Man War he would he'd probably be probably I think he'd be the worst yeah yeah no absolutely um yeah and I think he wouldn't I mean I say he'd be a reluctance leader I mean that's probably an understatement I know I mean I know he works with oh what's she called you know the woman he works with and she sort of looks up to him but actually if anything they're sort of almost more equals I mean he needs her just as much as she needs him really what's she called his um she starts off as his secretary but then they put her name on the door as well don't they um but yeah no I mean I wouldn't want to work for him I'm trying to think of all the spiders who who who would you want to work for not spider manoir that's that's a challenge Gwen yeah yeah Gwen I think she's probably of the more of all the iterations we've all of the that we've discussed she's probably if I yeah yeah if we think about the character in situ she's probably the most stable if you were talking about the individual with the most potential then I'd probably say Miles um that's yeah that's yeah I just yeah I find Miles I just find him he brings opt optimism um sensible optimism let's call it that that's what I I get from Miles because I don't think he's unrealistic in his approach you know you were saying that being too hopeful can be obviously that that can be just as bad as being too cynical um but I mean I would happily work for Gwen um even various iterations of Peter you know I don't think I do not think it would be bad to work for Peter at all no I don't think it'd be terrible far from it far from it I often feel like Peter Parker is like some kind of um you know tech spin out startup that's the kind of energy he's got I think my Miles is like that as well Miles is like that as well I guess I guess I guess across the board I guess across the piece what the Spider-Verse sort of demonstrates is you know the metaphor that um you know it rejects the idea of one perfect leadership model there isn't one perfect leadership model um leadership needs to be adaptive responsive reflective of circumstances and actually I think across the piece across the spider verse we see that so yeah that's but where do we rank them oh god um who will be even ranking I don't even know who the I don't know my god um I oh I don't even know we'll need a separate spider ranking table um well I was okay this well we're work through them then work through them Peter Parker oh god which um uh six and a half seven oh wow that's oh god wow well yeah if our scale was emergent leader um or potential leader if our scale was somebody that I was looking at going that person is going to be on the on the superhero fast stream um then I would definitely score him oh I would definitely score him seven maybe even eight oh okay actual reality as in happening right now is in terms of where he's at I probably wouldn't score him more than a four oh okay well okay well you see I was giving Spider-Man noir I was sticking him at like a three I think that's I think that's too too generous to be honest with Spider-Man Noir I wouldn't read I wouldn't rank him at all I wouldn't rank him at all at all I think he's destructive I think his cynicism is so destructive yes his decisiveness is is helpful but his cynicism is so destructive more destructive than his decisiveness is positive and creative so I wouldn't even rank him oh gosh okay well alright let's all right let's do Gwen then Gwen ah six God I'm way off I was gonna give her like an eight and miles go on miles and miles like a seven maybe I'm too optimistic maybe that's my problem maybe I'm just too gen Xynic because I was gonna get I was gonna give Miles a five I was gonna give Miles a five I was gonna say he's a solid he's a solid halfway at the moment um yeah but you know what that's that's okay because different leaderships different leadership styles we respond to we we respond to you know if you and I were seeing leadership it's through the same lens it would be so boring it would be so dull so I'm comfortable with your app as long as you're comfortable with I'm at oh completely that's why I enjoy this that's why I love this podcast does Spider-Man survive in any other universe well I'm discounting the Avengers given the trauma they've caused the poor boy so we know how he does there um Star Wars oh I think he'd be quite good with the rebels I think he'd be quite good I can see him like oh I can see him like you know on the deck of the Death Star spinning a web and stopping those X Wings from being able to fly out into space you know they just they fly and they just hit this spider's web I can see that happening yeah I can see Tom Holland actually the Tom Holland version yeah yeah yeah I could but I think they would all be I think they'd all fit in the the rebels what about in Star Trek no I I don't think so I can't see I think I think because he's such a creative um talent I think he's such an intelligent person uh Peter Parker I'm talking about here particularly I just think I think the I think in a Star Wars world the rebellion would foster and nurture that I think in a Star Trek world the Federation would stifle it see I could see him as being like an engineer on the Enterprise like Scotty because he is so intelligent. I don't know about Miles Miles and Gwen no I think I don't think they would suit but Peter because you've got the science he bit I could see I could see him there I could see him maybe engineering capacity yeah okay I've got okay maybe because I maybe I'm just skewed because Star Trek the most recent Star Trek I've just watched is um oh what's the one with is it no strange new worlds is that um is that that's Pike you mean oh Michael's Discovery Discovery right Discovery that's the one I've watched most recently and it's almost like in every single episode somebody comes up with a good idea and it's met with it's met with cynicism everybody just goes well that's not gonna work I think you'd be I think you'd be crazy to try that that's basically the energy that is getting that is coming through um I can't wait to do because that that that'll be like a Captain America ex um episode that will for me and get exercise that that demon um what about I think he'd be really good uh I think I think spider I think they'd all I think they'd well yeah I think they'd all actually Peter Parker Gwen Miles and Spider Noir I think they'd all be good um in Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Yeah they'd find they'd they'd all find their roles yeah no I would agree I think they wouldn't even have to stay on the wall they could all just go exploring no exactly tying up dragons with their webs and everything I can see that happening and then uh in terms of uh the boys would ooh would they I think I can totally see them with starlight um you know they would I think they'd all be starlighters yeah again yeah again I think that there is enough um different roles and like needs in the boys that they would actually fit even even Spider-Man noir I think would fit there in some sort of negative yeah yeah yeah yeah he's kind of akin to Billy Butcher in that sense yeah yeah sort of yeah a lovable rogue yeah well not sure I'm not sure anybody's described Spider Noir as a lovable rogue but okay there we go there we go that is spider no and next week we are doing the fellowship of the ring oh my god are we yes so prepare yourself oh my god I've been watching the wrong ones I've just been watching the Hobbit trilogy oh well we could do that we could do that right we'll do something something Tolkien esque okay sounds good sounds good excellent because I haven't got time to watch Peter Jackson's director's cut of everything again oh right well I will catch you in the next timeline next week bye