Gamify Business Tavern Tales Episode 23- Nancy Norbeck- The Muse Whisperer

GB Tavern Tales Episode 23- Nancy Norbeck- The Muse Whisperer and the Performance Parasite

Tonight we have a healer at the Tavern — but not the kind who mends broken bones or restores hit points. This one works with something far more delicate: the creative spark that so many adventurers have lost along the way.

The Performance Parasite.

This creature doesn't attack suddenly. It attaches itself slowly, usually when we're young. It whispers that play is pointless. That curiosity is inefficient. That the only creativity that counts is the kind that produces something, performs for someone, pleases the right people. Over time, the host forgets they ever had a muse at all. They say things like "I'm just not creative" or "I used to make things, but..." They look fine on the outside, but inside? Flattened. Disconnected. Quietly exhausted.

Nancy Norbeck is a Muse Whisperer.

As a creativity coach and "Messy Muse Mentor," Nancy helps burned-out perfectionists and people-pleasers reconnect with their creativity — not to produce more, not to optimize, but to feel more alive and more like themselves. She's also the host of Follow Your Curiosity, a podcast she's been running for over seven years, exploring creativity as a human birthright through deep conversations about play, resistance, and reclaiming inner authority in a world obsessed with productivity.

Her message challenges everything the Performance Parasite taught us: creativity isn't a skill to master. It's a reconnection to something that was never actually lost — just buried under years of performing, pleasing, and being "good."

Tonight, she's here to help us remember what we forgot.

🎲 Business is an adventure. Don't be an NPC.

Connect with Nancy Norbeck: 

🌐 https://fycuriosity.com/ 

💼 https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancynorbeck/ 

📺 https://www.youtube.com/@fycuriosity 

📸 https://www.instagram.com/fycuriosity/ 

🐦 https://www.twitter.com/fycuriositypod 

🎵 https://www.tiktok.com/@fycuriosity 

📝 https://fycuriosity.substack.com/

Connect with Paul Pape: 

🌐 https://gamifybusiness.com 

🔗 https://linkedin.com/in/paulpape

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome, fellow adventurer, to Gamify Business Tavern Tales, a place to discover the roads less traveled on your creative journey. Welcome back to the Tavern, fellow adventurers. I'm Paul Pape, your barkeep and game master. So tonight we have a healer in the tavern, but not the kind who mends broken bones or restores hit points. The one, this one, works with something far more delicate, the creative spark that so many adventurers have lost along the way. So here's the thing about the monster, the performance parasite. It doesn't attack suddenly, it attaches itself slowly, usually when you're young. It whispers that play is pointless, that curiosity is inefficient, that the only creativity that counts is the kind that produces something, performs for someone, pleases the right people. Over time, the host forgets that they ever had a muse at all. They say things like, I'm just not creative, or I used to make things, but they look fine on the outside, but inside, flattened, disconnected, quietly exhausted. Nancy Norbeck is a muse whisperer. As a creativity coach and what she calls a messy muse mentor, Nancy helps burned-out perfectionists and people pleasers reconnect with their creativity. Not to produce more, not to optimize, but to feel more alive and more like themselves. She's also the host of Follow Your Curiosity, a podcast that's been running for over seven years, exploring creativity as a human birthright through deep conversations about play, resistance, and reclaiming inner authority in a world obsessed with productivity. Her message challenges everything the performance parasite taught us. Creativity isn't a skill to master, it's a reconnection to something that was never actually lost, just buried under years of performing, pleasing, and being good. Tonight, she's here to help us remember what we forgot. Nancy, welcome to the tavern. When did you first realize that you were carrying this parasite?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Oh gosh, that's a good question. Because I think, you know, it it your your intro was perfect. It seeps in so subtly. You know, and I I think, oof, I don't know about first, but but one of my clearest memories of being told that what I wanted to do wasn't wasn't quite up to snuff, was when I was applying for colleges and I wanted to put on my application that I wanted to be a writer. And my dad told me that that wasn't okay.

unknown 2:42

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

That I had to, you know, I could put that I wanted to be a lawyer or a journalist or something that used writing, but that writing itself as a career aspiration was not something that I could put on my college application.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Wow. Yeah. Wow. Has had he has he changed his mind?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Well, I mean, we haven't had the specific have you changed your mind conversation. But I will say when I applied for my MFA program and got in and then went to the schools where I was teaching at the time and said, Hi, I would really love for you to pay for this. Here's my proposal. He helped me write it. Excellent. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Excellent. Wonderful. Well, that's good. That's a good outcome in that in that situation. I've had a very similar situation happen to me. It's like, because I mean, obviously I'm a full-time artist and I'm like, I'm gonna go do this. And they're like, what about a real job? What's your backup plan? I love that. What's your backup plan in case art fails? Like, uh, don't have one. Like it's art or nothing.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah, and you know, I I wish I could find a clip of this or a quote, but I know that at some point, like uh 20, 25 years ago, I saw an interview with George Clooney's dad, Nick Clooney. And he talked about having that conversation with George Clooney when he said he wanted to be an actor. He said, You know, what's your fallback plan? And George looked at him and said, Dad, if I have a fallback plan, I'll fall back. And I thought, that is a smart man right there. Smart man.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you work with people who look like they're doing fine on the outside, but feel flattened, disconnected, or quietly exhausted on the inside. When did you first recognize that pattern yourself? And what did the performance parasite feel like before you realized it was there?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

I think it's more that I realized something was missing than that I realized I was performing. And, you know, writing was a thing that I turned to really, really early. I mean, I wrote my first story when I was in fourth grade. And then I was I was the Doctor Who fan who wasn't allowed to watch Doctor Who because again, you'll notice the theme here. My my father is like the only engineer on the planet who was not a Star Trek fan. My father does not understand science fiction. And so when I wanted to watch this weird show that was held together with bubblegum and duct tape and had aliens made of green bubble wrap, did not compute at all. So I was always hoping that he would have to run an errand at four o'clock on Saturday afternoon so that I could sneak in some hoo time. And my answer to this when it didn't happen was fine, I'm gonna go write my own story. If I can't watch it, I'll create my own. And so writing was an outlet for me for a long time. And then, you know, high school happened and college happened, and it ceased to be a thing for a long time. And it was like 20 years ago when I was teaching, I was like, I really kind of miss that. Haven't done it for a long time, and I'm not really sure where to start to get it back. And it's ironic because I was teaching writing, but of course it was academic writing. Okay, you know. Um, and somebody that I knew online was having a fanfic challenge and was like, here you go, pick your fandom, write a piece of fanfiction for somebody. And so I did. And and that was it was one of those moments I always tell people, like, the trick is not to forget how good it feels, because there's this part of you that knows, right? That always knows, even when you haven't done it for a while, it still knows. And yet it it gets buried under this layer somehow where we forget. But as soon as you start again, it's like when I get in the pool and start to swim laps when I haven't done it for a while. Just that feeling of the water and all of that. It's like, oh, I forgot how good this feels. It's the same thing with that creative thing that you love to do. That you're just like, oh, you know, like the the blood starts flowing a little different way, you know, the the hairs on the back of your arm start to stand up. You're like, oh, I forgot what this feels like. And it feels so good that you can't figure out how that ever happened. And and you're just like, whoa, whoa, wait, now what can I do? Yeah, wait, this thing, I forgot about that thing too. I'm gonna go do that thing next. And and it just snowballs from there. And and that's kind of how it happened for me. And it it was like the faucet came back on. And then the next thing was, hmm, how can I do this with my students? Because if this is good for me, it's gonna be good for them. And and just kind of went from there. And the next thing I knew, I was applying for an MFA. So there you go.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Excellent. Now, do you do you feel like over time when you don't get to like exercise that creativity that you go through a like a withdrawal? Like people who don't get their coffee have that caffeine withdrawal, the the and they they feel disappointed or they feel you know anxiety or whatever. Do you feel that at all when you don't get to be creative? Or have you gotten so to the point where creativity is such an integral part of your life that you don't have those moments anymore?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Well, it's that insidious thing, right? Like when when you're closer to it, it feels more like withdrawal. If you don't do it long enough, though, you get that layer of this is normal, everything's fine. So, you know, it it depends. When life intervenes for too long, you know, even for me, it starts to be, oh yeah, I should do that thing, but I have to unload the dishwasher, you know, and and all of that. So so yeah, you have to, you have to make it intentional. You have to keep up with it. And you have to not beat yourself up about it when you don't.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

That's a good point. It's a good point. So speaking of that, so many people say I'm not creative. Like it's just a fact about themselves, like hair color or height. But you believe that creativity is a human birthright, not a special talent. Where does that lie come from? And how does the parasite plant it so deep that people actually believe it's true?

SPEAKER_00 9:21

So, first of all, to anybody who is watching, listening, who thinks that they are not creative, my test for whether or not you're creative is really, really simple. Can you fog a mirror? Because if you are can fog a mirror, if you are breathing, then you are creative. Because it is it is in our DNA, and it is in things that we do not recognize because they are not culturally recognized as forms of creativity, right? Every single one of us solves countless problems every day. I'm not even going to try to put a number on it, whether it's the way that you rearranged everything to fit it all in your car, or the filing system that you developed at work, or you know, saving the recipe that you were cooking for dinner because you didn't have the right ingredient and you figured that out halfway through it. Whatever it is, all of that is creative stuff, which is why on my podcast I talk to people like mathematicians and software engineers and accountants, because there's creativity in all of those things. So, you know, every single one of us played as a kid. That part does not go away. It just gets stifled somehow. And and that gets to your question, right? Somebody told you something, or you fell flat on your face. It's it's all the same thing, right? And and it could be somebody overtly coming up and saying, Man, that drawing is terrible. And you thought your drawing was really good, and it just destroyed your whole self-concept. Or it could just be, you know, damning with faint praise from somebody, or it could be that, you know, you drew the thing and you looked at, you know, a painting in a museum, and you thought, this looks like a stick figure and a bad stick figure compared to that. Like we do it to ourselves too, right? It comes from all of these different places because our standards are way up here and everybody starts somewhere. Yeah, right. You know, people will say all the time, you know, oh, you're such a good writer. And I'm like, yeah, and you all talk like I was born knowing how to do this. And I wasn't. You know, when I was teaching writing, you know, that was the thing that I heard. I mean, I heard crazy things like I taught ESL English as a second language. And people would say, Well, you can't do creative writing with English as a second language kids, they can't do creative writing. And I was like, I'm I'm I'm sorry, what did they have to turn in their imagination in order to get the second language? Like, what what are you talking about? Which for me was a oh really? Let me show you how wrong you are a moment. But you know, like things like that they that they they don't make any sense that that we believe that, you know, like this person can't do this kind of thing. I'm I'm a math and science person, therefore I can't do art. You know, like we we have these weird beliefs that don't make any sense. And we assume because other people say them, that they must be true. We assume that because somebody else is more artistic than we are, that we must not be artistic at all, even though our talent could be in a completely different area. And it shapes our perception of ourselves, even though there's probably not any truth to it, because we are all creative somehow. And and so, yeah, it it leaves a lot of people really messed up believing that they do not have a quality that they absolutely were born with. And it, as you can no doubt tell, is a really good way to get me on a tear. It drives me absolutely bonkers when people say that to me.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

I 100% agree. And I I like to say that uh every artist is a creative, but not every creative is an artist.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

And and I think I even said that on your show. And it's it's the truth, though, because I've had those actuaries who've been on here or who I've who have helped coach that are just like, oh, I just do numbers. I'm like, yeah, but you do numbers in a way that nobody else has done before. You've you found a solution. I mean, that is what literally is what differentiates us from the animals, is the ability to use our imagination and creativity. And for people to pull themselves out of that, you're just saying, all I am is an animal going about my daily pre-programmed routine. And it's so false. So incredibly false.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

It's so false. And it's also that exact example is part of why it's like, okay, you have this ability that no other animal has. Yeah. And yet you're telling me that it's just for kids or that we shouldn't use it, or that it's not necessary. Make that make sense.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Right. Right. It's such a it is an exhausting thing to have to fight somebody. I've I've literally I've gotten a screaming match at a trade show once because a guy's like, you can't have fun in business. Business has to be serious. And I'm like, I'm dressed as this, you know, and I'm I'm in a fake tavern in the middle of this trade show. And I'm like, I agree to disagree. Uh I'm like, it's no, I'm and I'm literally, I'm smart, I'm having fun. I'm, you know, I'm making fake tavern mugs and all this stuff because that's just how I want to run my business. Because I I love what I do and I want to take a creative approach. And I find that create because it without creativity, there is no growth. We can't do anything new. We'll not be innovative. And so all these people are like, you've got to do it this way and only this way, would lead to just absolute stagnation. And it's like, that's not what that's not what humans do. Right. Like that's it's our, you know, besides long distance running or like the stamina beyond belief, uh, creativity is the only other thing that we've got going for us that's that's allowed us to become the apex, you know, the top of the food chain or whatever it is that we like to call ourselves. So the the fact that we kill that or try to dismiss it is is bonkers.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Right. And and you actually you you just used another word that also kind of gets me going. It amuses the heck out of me and amuses sometimes as is an understatement. You know, you hear all of these like CEOs and business people and they go on about innovation, innovation, innovation, right? And like innovation is the word that CEOs use because they're afraid to use the word creativity. Right? Because creativity sounds like arts and crafts, right? But what do you think innovation is? You can't have innovation if you don't have creativity first. You can't. It does not work that way. But you all want to pretend that you can. It's like they're they're not exactly the same, but the one comes from the other. And you want to be all serious about it and and fake it, and it's not how it goes.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

No, and I I think that people have started to take creative people, like super creative, like people who are successful at it, like you and I are who's successful at being creative, and putting us on this weird pedestal that no one else can achieve that. And so that uh and it becomes like the the weapon or the shield that allows them to be like, oh, I'm paying this guy over here to be creative, and we had to bring in a specialist, and we're gonna pay him X amount. But if everybody was creative, well then what am I wasting my money on? We're like, why did I have to bring this guy in when any of us could have done it? And the reality is this any of you could have done it. Um, it's just that you you place us on this weird pedestal, and it it, but then they're gonna put us on this pedestal, but then not pay us. So that it's that whole starving artist dichotomy that drives me crazy.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Right. And and you know, you're reminding me, I saw a post on Blue Sky a couple weeks ago where somebody was saying, you know, there are very few truly creative people, and then all of these other people who want to be creative get upset about it. And I was like, okay, you are confusing creative with artist, right? There are very few Pablo Picasso's or William Shakespeare's or whatever. Fine. But absolutely everybody is creative, right? And this is what you're not getting, right? There's a difference between, you know, high art and being creative, and and y'all are just mixing up your vocabulary and it's causing so much pain for no good reason. Because I think people really fundamentally on some level do understand that they are creative and that it's been taken away. And those people who say, Oh, well, I'm not creative, underneath are going, but I really want to be. And I remember when I used to be, and I wish I was. And you know, because they are, and somebody took it from them. And so comments like that, I mean, I was really biting my tongue that day. I was like, you do not want to start this fight, you really don't want to start this fight. But you know, I screenshotted it for later use. But it's like, because there's a point to be made here. Like, there is a definitional issue, and so we're telling people that they aren't something that they are, and and it's it's destroying people because we're not letting them be who they really are.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Do you remember during the pandemic adult coloring books just like skyrocketed? Like every adult was like, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna spend hours and hours coloring this. But it was sophisticated coloring, but it's still coloring. And it's like for all of those people who then, when they went back to work, the world got back to normal, wherever that is, and then they put that away, and then they'll go back to saying, Yeah, I'm not really that creative. Yet you just spent like three years being creative in your own right, picking colors. You weren't, it wasn't paint by numbers, it was you deciding what you wanted it to be. That's creativity, that's literally what it is. Yeah. So, and and and it's so weird that we've trained ourselves or we've been conditioned, I guess, by society and by somebody in our lives to recognize that as either a waste of time or something to fill that void, but it's not important. It doesn't lead us anywhere. And unfortunately, it does, and I don't know, I saw more innovation coming out of the people who got stuck at home during the pandemic than we've seen in a long time because they had to start entertaining themselves. They had to they had to do something because they were no longer allowed to just, you know, piss away their time at work or doing other things that weren't that important. They had to they had to do something, and then they started to reconnect with that inner child, especially if you had children, because you're like, now I gotta entertain these things. And it's like, and that's that's what that's what we were doing. We're just like, what new game can we play? What what what new thing can we do? Because I had a kindergartner at the time. And to not be able to leave the house with a kindergartner is is tough. Um, and so and it wasn't just everybody on an iPad all the time. It's like, okay, what games can we hit? How do we keep that entertainment or an education or whatever you want to call it going in those kids to keep them active in it? But then at the same time, I had to be creative to come up with that. And I think so many people did, and they just didn't they just ignore it.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

We had so many amazing things come out of that period. It was phenomenal.

unknown 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

But tell me again how y'all aren't creative. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

That's a great segue to the next question. So your approach reframes creativity as reconnection rather than production. That's a that's radical in a world that measures everything by output. For creative entrepreneurs who've internalized the idea that their creativity only matters if it makes money or gets likes, how do they start separating their creative spark from the demand to perform?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Well, I think the easiest way, and I say easiest.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Easiest on that one?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Easiest is a very loaded word here because it fries people's brains. I think the easiest way to do it is just to decide that you're gonna do something badly. You know, I mean, I I created a course called Make Bad Art for a reason because it frees you from all of that stuff. And you know, it fries people's brains both because they hear me say that and they go, I'm sorry, what? Like, why the heck would I want to do that? Right. But it also fries their brains when they sit down to do it. And I mean, I have done this many times, and it still will fry my own brain because it's so counterintuitive. You just kind of sit there staring at the piece of paper and you go, Wait, how do I do this badly again? Right? Because we're so not programmed to do that. But when you give yourself permission to do something badly, you free everything up because your inner critic is just kind of sitting there going, Yeah, dude, I got nothing. I uh I have nothing to contribute here. I cannot get on you about how this isn't perfect because that's not what you're trying to do. And so all the other parts of your brain are like, Whoo, well, okay, what can I do with this? How can I mess this up? I don't know. Maybe I'll throw, you know, a unicorn horn on top of a piece of carpet. I I don't know. And and you just start to play.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Yeah. I love it. I love, I love playing. It's fundamental for every creative or for every person out there. And I love it. Yeah. And it's one of the first things I do when I walk into any business. I'm like, we're it's it's not a production, it's not a, you know, we're not there to do a task. I'm like, no, we're just gonna play. Like, forget all your pre your predetermined expectations. Like, all of that goes away. We're just going to play. And then by the time we're done with it, then then what our job is, and I'm sure that you do this as well, is like, okay, we spent all this time playing, and nothing meant anything, but all of it ties together, and it all does mean something. And they go, Oh, okay. It's like that that moment happens because they just thought they were just goofing around or whatever term that every adult's ever told me in my life, oh, you just you're just messing around with your life, you're taking not taking anything seriously. And it's like, no, no, no, I'm taking everything seriously. You just have to look at it through a different lens. And I'm pretty sure that's exactly what you do. So you had talked about this a little bit just a second ago. So you call yourself a messy muse mentor, and I love that framing, I really do. What does it mean to embrace the mess? So, for perfectionists and people pleaser who've been taught that everything needs to be polished before it's shared, how do they learn to let that muse be messy?

SPEAKER_00 24:25

For a lot of them, it takes a lot of practice because you know, it it is so driven into us. You use the word optimized before, and like, oh my God, we are like told that we have to be optimized to an within an inch of our lives anymore, right? Every single thing, like everything you eat, everything you wear, how you do your hair, every, you know, everything you put on Instagram, which is like a non-stop scrolling judgment machine, every single bit of it has to be perfect. And somebody comes along and says, make a mess. And it's like, you know, to use a dated term for younger generations, like the tilt sign lights up in your brain, right? And you just can't process that. But, you know, that's why it's like, okay, just do one tiny little thing. You know, do one thing that's not perfect, be five percent more imperfect than you were before. And if that is too much, try two percent, try one percent, try half a percent, whatever, whatever little amount you can wrap your head around, start there, start small, start really small until your system gets used to it. You know, it's kind of like titrating new medicine. You know, start with a a bit that you can handle and increase it from there. And once you, you know, really start to metabolize that, then you really start to be able to give yourself permission to get in there and play and make a mess and have fun with it. And so what if you spatter paint all over the place? I mean, you know, as long as you're not at Buckingham Palace or whatever.

unknown 26:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

And and that's when the good stuff happens. I mean, it just is. And that's also when you start to be able to see it. I mean, I I had a friend several years ago who would cook and and bake amazing things, and she was a phenomenal photographer. And she came into the office one day and she had taken this picture where she had like this this quail egg on top of a teaspoon and a China teacup and this, you know, beautiful place setting and all of this. And I looked at it and I was like, my God, this should be on the cover of a cookbook. And her first comment was about how the lighting wasn't right. And I'm like, it is beautiful, it belongs on the cover of a cookbook, and all you can see is this lighting thing that 99% of other people are not gonna see, and you didn't even hear what I just said because you can't see how gorgeous this is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Sometimes you gotta get out of your own way.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Yeah.

unknown 27:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Let the viewing audience tell you how good it is. Quit quit trying to judge yourself.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah, and be okay with enough mess that you can see what's really good about what you've done so that you can give yourself credit for it. We do not give ourselves enough credit for the things we have actually accomplished because we have the Instagram scrolling judgment machine staring at us all day, telling us that we're not good enough. And the only way to counter that is to give ourselves credit for the stuff that we've done that is good.

unknown 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

You know?

SPEAKER_02 28:00

One of the hardest lessons I think I had to learn repeatedly in my earlier career was that I wanted to be taken so seriously that every product photo that I put out there had a beautiful velour background, had the perfect lighting, had all of that. And people would buy those things from me, but they didn't want to pay what I thought it would be worth. And it took another guy from another business to be like, quit photographing things like you're at Sears Photo Shoot, dude. Like, show your desk, show your messy floor, show the process, put the object there because then they know that you actually did it. It's not something from a machine, it didn't come from a factory, it came from your hands. And when that I finally accepted that, and I fought it. I fought it because I thought I knew better. I did not, but when I finally accepted that, my prices went through the roof. And I loved it. And I was like, you guys are actually want me to, you want me to play and you want to you want to buy the mess that that produces the beautiful object at the end. I mean, you talked about you know getting paint on the floor. I have an unfinished basement, like it's concrete, and I paint on it. I don't care. You know, it's like in that's the whole point is like I I don't want to live in a museum. I don't want to live in Buckingham Palace. I want to live in a place where if I do make a mess, um, I'm okay with that. I build every desk that I have because I know if I built it, I can destroy it and I don't feel bad about it. So I'm drilling into my desk and people are like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm just doing the work that I need to do. And they're like, Well, what if you ruin the desk? And I thought, I'll build another one. I don't care. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Right. Right. And you know, by the same token, like I'm I'm coming to you from my closet, right? My podcast studio, very cliche, is my closet in my bedroom. Because when I started my podcast eight years ago, that's what I had. It's still what I have. And if I had waited for a studio, I'd probably still be waiting. And instead, I have, you know, seven and a half years of a podcast recorded, waiting to go out. And, you know, I think we wait for these things to be perfect because we think we have to have the perfect thing, which is very perfectionistic. Notice the word keeps coming up. Um and it stops us from actually doing the stuff that we want to do. It's it's another way that we get in our own way. It's like, look, I don't, I don't care if everybody knows I'm in here with, you know, sweatshirt hanging. I it's what I've got.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

It hasn't stopped me from doing the thing that I wanted to do and getting a message out there and also talking to some pretty phenomenal people. So, you know, what what can you do to get started with what you have, worry about upgrading it later, or don't, because hey, I can't really beat the commute and the rent on this particular studio. And like, like your desk, if you destroy it, who cares? You build another one.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

That's right. I was talking to my wife, my wife wanted to start a new side hustle because she's a costume designer and she wants to talk to people about dressing for major events like TEDx talks and whatever. And we were recording her first video, and she did probably 30, 35 takes. And she's like, it's just not perfect. I'm like, I don't care. Like, like, pick one, they pick one of them. I don't doesn't matter which one, and we'll put it out there. And she's like, Well, what if people don't take me seriously? Like, they will, because it's about the message. It's not about, you know, who cares if you fell over a word or or whatever. Try to get your message out there. And let me tell you, you're only not gonna put just one out there and then hope for the rest, and then that's it for the rest of your life. You're gonna constantly improve and get better at it. And much like my studio photos to messy photos and all that, it just evolves over time and you become more comfortable in that practice. And I think a lot of people get scared off with that, you know, perfection first, and then because once it's perfect, then what where's the growth? There's none left. Right. And so you gotta start, you just start, just go, just take that first step. And they say the first step is the hardest, and it literally is because you're afraid to be judged, you're afraid of um a failing. And I love to say that failure is not a stop, it's a step.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

And that's exactly what we need to keep in mind. So just yeah, just throw it out there and be okay with it. Yeah, totally. Totally. So you talk about play and curiosity as essential, not productivity hacks, but ends in themselves. So for creative entrepreneurs who feel guilty if they're not working on something, I know that one, how do you they give themselves permission to play without it needing to become a product, a post, or a business idea?

SPEAKER_00 32:32

If you're not playing, your ability to generate those ideas is just not going to be as sharp. Even if the play that you are doing is not remotely related. I was just just looking up scientists, Nobel winners, and the connection between like, you know, art and science. Nobel Prize winners are three times more likely to have an artistic hobby than other scientists, and they're 12 times more likely to be writers. Oh you know, I mean, like that that's not a coincidence. When you're engaging both halves of your brain, you're engaging the whole process much more fully, and more can come out of it. So, you know, if you're playing and being curious, like my podcast is called Follow Your Curiosity because your curiosity is gonna take you to all sorts of places you could not have imagined. It could take you to your next business idea, it could take you to someone who's going to give you that next business idea. I mean, you just don't know. Curiosity and creativity are two sides of the same coin. You can't really be creative if you're not gonna be curious about what you're doing. So hone that creative or that curiosity so that it's there and raring to go when you're doing your business. Because that's what's gonna help you find the thing that's missing, the next thing that you want to do. It's it's all it's all part of the same thing. Because we're we're unitary creatures, right? You can't split us up. The metaphor that comes to mind for me is you know, his dark materials, where everybody's demon is outside, that soul is outside your body. And in that first book, they try to slice it away from you. And that's what our culture has done with our creativity. It has tried to take that part and say, Oh, you don't need this. Done. And then in that book, those kids that they do that to wander around like zombies. Look at the people who've been told that they're not creative. They that's how they feel, whether they admit it or not. They're wandering around like zombies, and so are a lot of people, like in most offices, because they're not allowed to do that kind of stuff in their job. They're told they have to just sit there and you know do the left brain stuff all day. They're not allowed to be their whole self. I mean, we we we're whole human beings. And I it blows my mind that our culture has managed to get away with this for so long because it does so much damage on so many levels. So be your whole self.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

I agree 100%. So, do you feel that this little device here with the doom scrolling and all that is the is the supplement to the loss of creativity? Like we doom scroll to watch everyone else be creative because we feel like we can't be that. And so we're going to live vicariously through the glass screen and just watch everyone else do it, or do you feel like it's stripping away? I think like I'm I'm kind of on the fence on on the devices. All of my kids have them, but we don't they don't just zone out to them. I use them for productivity. You know, they I'm like, you're use this as an educational tool. But I I'd be curious to know your take on it. If you think that the technology is their escape to view creativity because they long for it, or do you think that it is actually diminishing creativity in people?

SPEAKER_00 36:31

I think it depends on a lot of things, right? Like there are so many creative things that you can do with it. If you go and and you look at at some of the really, really clever and creative people on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, people are doing phenomenal things. You know, really clever comedy sketches and stuff like that. And in that respect, I think it's a phenomenal tool for that. But at the same time, if all you are doing is consuming other people's creativity and not creating your own, I think that's a problem. One of the first interviews that I did for the podcast, so this is going back to late 2018, I recorded this. It was my first interview with Kelly Flanagan. He said, We have the first generation of kids who are consuming more than they're creating. And that nobody knows what that's going to mean as those kids grow up because they're playing other people's games instead of creating their own. They're watching other people's videos and artwork and you know, instead of creating their own. And, you know, all of that has been an integral part of childhood since forever. And these kids are just staring at it on a screen instead of doing it themselves. That was one of the most terrifying moments in an interview that I've ever done. Because they're all that, you know, nobody knows what that's gonna mean. And so I think if if you have a kid who has an iPad or you know, a phone or whatever, just make sure that you're encouraging them to do lots of their own stuff outside of it. You know, make sure that they're playing, playing board games, making up their own games, playing, you know, I do improv with my nephews when I'm with them because they eat that stuff up, you know, like make up their own your own games with them. Ask them to make up stories with you, you know, get as much stuff in the and it's challenging, right? Because you know, you were talking about it before. If you're stuck with a kindergartner, you gotta keep making stuff up. But as much of that as you can get them to do to counteract the the level of consumption, you know, try to even that balance out will be so much better for them. And you know, the thing is, we can sit there and we can talk about kids all the time, but we're just as bad. We're the ones setting the example. So, you know, it's pretty hypocritical to look at them and say, you're spending too much time on your phone, and they're just looking at you, going, uh-huh. And have you looked at yourself lately? So, so yeah, I mean, it's it's hard. You have to, you know, creativity takes courage and it takes effort and it takes all of these things that staring at a screen doesn't. But the reward is so huge. And that's the thing I think we don't remember because it's so easy. I mean, look, I will freely admit that one of my guilty pleasures is watching people cook on video, right? I know I'm not gonna cook half of these recipes. I don't have the kitchen or the space to do half of it, but I will sit there and watch people and go, damn, that looks good. I won't cook that one day, you know, and it's probably pretty harmless. I try not to spend hours doing it, but I do enjoy it, you know. But then you gotta go and and make space for your own stuff. It makes your life so much better, even if you only manage it for five or ten minutes a day. It just makes such a huge difference. It builds your confidence, it builds your own curiosity and and your intellect and your it's I I could sit here and throw adjectives at you all day, but it it just it does so much good for you.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Now, I do want to say, because you had you said that, you know you spend all this time with your with your nephews and in uh entertaining them. And a lot of parents out there are like, I don't have the time for that, or I don't know what to do, or I'm not the creative person who knows how to do that. The simplest, easiest way to get them off of the device and to entertain them is to read. Read to your kids. Um, they say that most adults, most adults, and this I can't remember the exact percentage, but it was like high 80s, high 90s, do have not read a book for pleasure since high school. Like, I don't know how you like I've read well over 350 books to my children. I read every night. And it's because I I'm like, no, it's time to read. Get off the devices. Here's 45, 30, 30 minutes to 45 minutes every night, where I'm like, we're going to escape to your imagination. And if it falls if you fall asleep in the middle of it, I don't care. You're gonna dream with your imagination. But that's it's it's such a simple thing for me to do, but it makes a huge difference. All of my kids are creative, every single one of them. And it's not because the parents are creative, it's because that we've just allowed them to do the things that they want, but they're also constantly surrounded by this and given the opportunity to, you know, they're on their devices. They're on their devices right now. There's a it's a snow day, so they're like, I'm gonna sit on my device, I'm gonna play video games or whatever. That's cool. But let me tell you, nine o'clock rolls around. My college kid, my high school kid, and my elementary school kid get in their beds and dad reads. And it's just become part of it, it's such a simple thing to do because we all have to go to bed and so spend 20, 30 minutes just reading to them. And the thing is, is what you'll find, because this has happened to my wife, she's like, I can't go to bed unless you've read to me. You know, she likes to listen. She's like, you narrate these books, and you just in and so she's an avid reader, she could read all these books herself, but she's like, I just love because it calms her down, it's a it centers her, but it also it's imagination again. And and I start to have fun with it, I look forward to it, she looks forward to it, the kids look forward to it. And it's so simple, it's just a book. And books go to the library, you know, it's like you don't have to buy a bunch of things, you know. Just do that. And it's it's such an easy way to go into it.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah, no, it's great. And you know, we're all wired for story. Story is one of the most powerful things about human beings.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Literally wrote a book on that.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

It is that important. Um, because we didn't used to sit around a campfire and talk about spreadsheets. We used to talk about, ugh, we ate the wrong mushroom. That's what it was. I mean, we told stories. That was the point, you know? And that's how we learn. That's how we learn. That's how humans learn.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Absolutely. And it's how we can act. And now I'm imagining sitting around talking about stories about spreadsheets.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Be the best caveman skit ever. Ugh, don't. You know, like just be bad.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

A1, B3.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

So you have a beautiful phrase about sending the inner critic off to summer camp. And I love that analogy. It's so great. It's not about killing the critic, but getting it out of the room for a while. So, how do you actually do that? What is the practice for giving the muse space to speak without the critic interrupting?

SPEAKER_00 43:34

I mean, really, it goes back to that making bad art. And that's that's the easiest way that I know of, is just like, hey, we're gonna we're gonna do some other things for a while now. So you can go play in in traffic or at summer camp. There's a ropes course over there that should keep you occupied for a good long while. Um and and I'm gonna sit here and and write a really bad haiku for the next five minutes. And then you can come back and you can say, Yeah, wow, that's really bad. Well done. Because that's the only thing that you've got to say about this really bad haiku. And the hilarious thing is when you do that, a lot of the time you actually end up writing a good haiku.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Don't tell people that.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Well, and that's the trick, right? When when you set out to make bad art, if you realize, when you realize that good art is gonna sneak out with it because you've allowed for that possibility by sending the inner critic away, once you know that can happen, you can try to game the situation, right? It's like, oh, I'm gonna make bad art now so that the good art will come out. That does not work. You have to genuinely intend to do something badly. Now, I did an experiment on video back in the fall that was 30 bad poems in 30 days. And it was, you know, not something that I hadn't done before, though. I never sat down and did it for a 30-day stretch, but I also never did it on video. So that made it a little bit different because, you know, it's like, this is gonna go out to the world. So it's like, how do how do I get past that part in my head? But I did notice after like around day 15 that I genuinely didn't care whether it was good or bad anymore. It was like, eh, I'm just gonna write a poem now. We're gonna see what comes out. Might be good, might be bad. Only one way to find out. Here we go. And then I would take it and I would make the video and I would, you know, read it and say, so here's what happened when I wrote this, you know. But but at that point in that experiment, I was just like, yeah, whatever. Whatever comes out is what comes out. And that's kind of what happens. The more you play with that, the less you care. So the inner critic is just kind of like, call me when you need me. I'll be over here, you know, knitting a 20-foot Doctor Who scarf and you know, whatever, you don't need me, you're good. And and that's what happens. But if you set out to see to kind of, you know, play that trick on yourself and say, Oh, I'm I'm I'm gonna make some bad art now so that it's actually good, that won't work, and you'll just mess with yourself.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

So I want to know what is Nancy's go-to bad art? Is it the poems writing? Is that usual go-to?

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Because it's easy, right? You don't need anything. You don't need anything but pen and paper, no brushes, no paint, no building blocks, no, no whatever. Pretty much anybody can sit down and write a crappy poem in like three minutes. So it's it's pretty much all purpose accessible to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Excellent. For me, it's crumpling up a piece of paper and seeing what pictures are in there. That's it's the bad artist. It'll never be one, I'll never sell it. It's it's literally trash that I'm trying to draw pictures onto, but I try to see what's the image that's in there and see where it goes. And a lot of times it doesn't make any sense to anybody. It is bad. But occasionally I've gotten some really good character ideas from crumpling up a piece of paper. That's awesome. But um, it's good, it's good interesting to know. So I like that. So if someone wants to reignite that spark of creativity and they want to connect you to the with you, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Well, the uh if they want to see me in action, my YouTube is follow your curiosity. Everything is follow your curiosity, and uh abbreviated everywhere as FY Curiosity. So YouTube, FY Curiosity, Blue Sky, FY Curiosity. Um, the podcast is follow your curiosity pretty much wherever you get podcasts and on YouTube. And my website is fycuriosity.com. So there's a theme. Um and I have the Follow Your Curiosity Creativity Circle, which is a free hour every month that is just come hang out in a safe space away from whatever's happening in the world with other people and do your thing for an hour with no pressure to, you know, you can do it imperfectly. You can, you know, I'll give a prompt. I gave two prompts last time. Use them, don't use them. And and you know, if you don't know what you want to do, you can just come and hang out in the space and daydream and see what happens. If nothing happens, that's okay. This is not school, right? I am not grading you, I am not giving you detention, I am definitely not calling mom and dad. It's it's just easy, imperfect, no pressure. And and you know, we had we had the first one in January, and it was great. So we would love to have you if you want to come and join us. And if there's a particular thing that you're stuck on, you know, if you've got that guitar that's been sitting in the corner for two years because you said you were gonna learn how to play and you still haven't picked it up and you don't know why. I've I've got a one-hour session called One Lock, One Key. You bring me the lock and I'll help you find the key. And that's currently a pilot offer for the first 20 people. There's a reduced rate in exchange for a testimonial and your feedback. And, you know, by the time this goes out, there might still be some slots left at that price. And uh yeah, but but it's it's been pretty successful so far. So, you know, I'd love to help you out with that. And I'm currently re-reimagining Make Bad Art as a membership program instead of a six-week course. So that's not ready to go yet. But soon, I hope.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Excellent. And that, fellow adventurers, is what it sounds like when a muse whisperer pulls up a chair. So I want to thank Nancy for being here tonight and naming something so many of us carry without realizing it. That quiet exhaustion, that feeling of being flattened even when everything feels looks fine. The belief that we're just not creative, when the truth is our creativity was never lost. It was just buried under years of performing, pleasing, and producing on demand. So here's what I want you to take from tonight. Your muse is still in there. It didn't leave. It's just waiting for you to stop demanding that it perform and start letting it play. Creativity isn't something you have to earn back through self-improvement. It's something you reconnect with by remembering who you were before the performance parasite attached itself. Before you learned that play was pointless, before you started believing that the only creativity that counts is the kind that produces something for someone else. If Nancy's message resonated with you, check out her free monthly Follow Your Curiosity Creativity Circle. I'll have that link in the show notes. It's a space where curiosity gets to Mike and the inner critic gets sent off to Saracam. So no pressure, no performance, just play. Until next time, remember business is an adventure. Don't be an NPC. Thanks, Nancy.