Ep 35: "Dead Poets Society Vol1: Gil Scott-Heron"

 In this episode, we discuss the work and life of Gil Scott-Heron aka "The Godfather of Hip Hop". This conversation dives deep into how he became a foundational voice for spoken word, blending jazz, soul, and sharp political insight. The episode breaks down iconic pieces like “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised,” exploring his critiques of media, consumerism, and systemic inequality, while also connecting his message to modern movements and music. Heron's work definitely resonated with Gen X and continues to echo in today’s cultural and social conversations. 

Intro and Outro music by Erin Garris and Khari Garris

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Yo, yo, yo, what it is, what it was, what's it gonna be? Welcome. Welcome to the latest episode of the Gen Expertise Podcast, episode thirty-five, titled Dead Poet Society Volume One. Gil Scott Heron. Welcome, welcome. We are your hosts, Maynon Rance, and the revolution will not be podcasticized.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Now you know that it's not a word.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

My brother, my ace, how you doing, man? I'm good, man. How about yourself? I'm good, man. I'm good. No complaints.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

So this is a first of one of our, another first of one of our long, long what's turning to be a long line of um series.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Dead Poet Society, and we figured we'd use Gil Scott Heron. I was inspired because number one, I was listening to that old Kanye.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Yeah, home, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Like Yeah, that home with common rapping on it. I think is it graduation or late registration? I I can't forget, but I was listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Yeah, I can't I can't remember either which which one.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

I was listening to it and and I was like, yo, Gil Scott Heron, man. A lot of people, he's he's one of those guys, man. Gil is that guy, yo.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Yeah, and on that song, it's funny you mentioned that because I I listened to that um not well, I listened to that not too long ago, but um it's home is where the hatred is with samples. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's a deep one too.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Yeah, that's a real deep one. We're gonna get into that too. Oh, yeah, oh yeah. Um, but but before we start, before we start, this is also a first. Because I know a lot of our listeners, some of them listen with their children. So, advisory, we gotta put the advisory because there will be possible talks about drug usage and paraphernalia in this episode of the Gen Expertise Podcast. Yes, so it's edge maybe it's educational uses only, but there may be some talk about drug use. So there you go. There's your disclaimer.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

And possible use of the N-word, now that I think about it. But just in in reference to um within context of Yeah, with absolutely within context. Like, you know, you know, we try to, like you said, like we try to keep this this podcast kid friendly and and appropriate for all listeners. So just um, yeah, that's a good disclaimer to put out there though that that there's gonna be some language and and um topics discussed here, but it was it's strictly in the context of of the of the topic, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

For educational purposes only.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

And also go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

But go no, go, go, I was gonna say, since we got that out the way, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

But you're gonna start cursing up a storm, right? Like we said, it was for education. Yeah. No, um, so the uh one one thing I wanted to touch on before we get started with the actual topic is um in recent news, and a lot of people are probably already aware of this, but the Artemis II um mission to the moon actually returned on Friday. So I just wanted to give a a shout out to um Victor Glover, who was the the first black man to actually make one of these missions around the moon. Um I didn't know that. So um Victor Glover is also fun fact, a member of Five Beta Sigma Fraternity Incorporated. So shout out to him. Yeah, um I wanted to give a shout-out to him because you know I'm a member of Five Beta Sigma Fraternity Incorporated as well. So shout out to my fried brother Victor Glover um on the Artemis 2 mission. And matter of fact, shout out everybody, a whole crew on that mission. Because I don't think that's been done, if I'm not mistaken, there hasn't been a mission by um, at least by by like a US crew to the moon since like 1972.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Yeah, it's been a minute.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

So so I thought that was um, yeah, it's it's you know, obviously it's it's it's it's incredible. Um and then as as I'm looking at this, right? Like when you see the stories about this online, you see a lot of the conspiracy theories too about whether or not um the US has actually been to the moon, and even if if this particular mission is has been kind of faked, right? And I'm not here to make that argument. I'll let you know that I'm on the side of it's real. Um but and I and I'll leave it at that. But I but I noticed that that I was I was just surprised that that that type of um theory is still being floated even in 2026 for the most recent missions. You still have kind of a segment of the population that doesn't believe that this is possible. But but yeah, shout out to to Victor Glover.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Shout out to Victor Glover. Shout out to everybody that went up and came back safely.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Yeah, absolutely. Shout out to the whole crew, the whole crew.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

The whole crew, man. You know, so I'm not gonna lie, man, I'm always a little traumatized because we're part of those children that watched the um the was it the challenger that went up and didn't make it.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

I know what you're talking. I was in like fifth grade, I think we were in fifth grade when that happened, and they they actually rolled out just one of those moments where they rolled out the TV. Yeah, they rolled out the TV. So Gen Xers understand what that means when the TV rolls out, either either something special is happening or you have a substitute teacher. But in this in this case, it was something really special was was about to happen, or or so so we thought, right? It's still an impactful thing.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Like, but like you said, um Yeah, but on the wrong side, wrong side of it all, man. You know, so every time they say there's a space launch or something, I kind of get a little PTSD about it, man. Like I cross my fingers and I say a little prayer for them, man. Hope they get back and get up and get back safely, man.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Because it's definitely something that you're that that burns on your brain, like especially like at that age, man. Like we were we were so impressionable and so excited about seeing that, and to have a tragedy happen as a result was like, yeah, it was definitely traumatizing and definitely something that kind of burns on your brain, you know. Um, you never forget something like that. And um, but another it the another interesting kind of overlap of this is that you know, we have this mission to to um to the moon. This month is actually Gil Scott Heron's um birthday month. He was actually born on April 1st. He was born on April Fool's Day, April 1st. So his birthday just passed. So 1949. Yeah, so happy belated birthday to Gil Scott Heron posthumously, you know. Um but the reason that there's a uh you know, kind of in my mind, you know, I make these weird connections sometimes, and maybe not so weird, right? But when I make these connections, I think about the a moon, you know, a mission to the moon and Gil Scott Heron's um poem, um, Whitey on the moon, right? And I'm sure we're gonna get into that, but but it just was like, oh wow. So we're doing the we're doing this show. His um his birthday just passed, A Mission to the Moon just just you know, just returned, and one of his most famous poems is um Whitey on the Moon. Um I thought I thought all that overlap was a little bit interesting.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yeah, that's cool. So, as you said, Gil Scott Heron was born April 1st, 1949 in Chicago. So, at the Gen Expertise Show, we're all about giving you knowledge and things that you can listen to us say and then go and look for yourself. So, read about it, watch documentaries. We always give somewhat of a cliff note version of everything because if we were to get super deep into our subject our subjects, it'd be like two, three hours long. So, we're basically gonna give you a rundown of some of our things that we know that we've learned about Gil Scott Heron. Um, talk about some of his music, uh, some of his albums, his songs, what those songs mean to us. But first off, let's just get into a quick, quick, quick, quick bio. Like I said, born April 1st, 1949 in Chicago, to Bobby Scott from Jackson, Tennessee, uh, who was an opera singer. Did you know his mother was an opera singer?

SPEAKER_03 8:20

No, I had no idea about that. Nope.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah, I found out that his mother was an opera singer, and his father, Gil Heron, from Jamaica, was actually a football player, a soccer player, and he was the first black man to play for the Celtic FC in Glassburg, Glasgow, Scotland. Pardon me. He was known as the Black Arrow.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah. So as a young, as a youngster, his parents, when they split up, he moved down to Jackson, Tennessee. His mother sent him down to Jackson, Tennessee with his grandmother, where he lived from 1950 to 1962. Where also a fact that I found out is that in 1962, along with two others, I think Gyllen Glover and Madeline Walker, they were the first to integrate the school system in Jackson, Tennessee.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Yeah, yeah. I can't even imagine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Whenever I hear a story about somebody integrating a school, it gives me a chill because I think about the age that they were and like kind of where I was at that age and kind of the courage it takes and and the the um just the wherewithal to to to kind of weather that type of storm. I didn't know until we started kind of researching this. Um it it makes it makes his story even deeper, you know, to me.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Because it was starting early with him.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Yeah, from the time he was a child. Yeah, exactly. From the time he was a child, he was in the fight for for civil rights, basically, you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Yeah, yeah. And that's where he found his love of poetry, uh, because his his grandmother would always listen to and read Langston Hughes. She was a big Langson Hughes fan. Uh so that's where he first like really found his love of of poetry. Um his grandmother passed, unfortunately, in 1962, and he was brought to the Bronx. Yeah. Where he attended Clinton, the wet Clinton for a year or two, and then he went to the Fieldstone School, which don't they have like campuses in Manhattan and the Bronx, the Phil Sculpt? Like, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

Like I think it's I think it was in Manhattan, though, because at the time he looked, I I think once he left the Bronx, um, he uh he wound up actually living in Chelsea, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Um in a in a kind of a housing project in the Chelsea area.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Heavily Puerto Rican. He he he was famous for as Puerto Rican and white. Yeah, he was saying it was 85% Puerto Rican, 50% white, and him. So also, when he was applying to Phil Stone, they asked him, How would you feel if you see one of your classmates go by in a limo while walking up the hill from the subway? Because it was an affluent school where where affluent families sent their children, and he said the same as you would feel, because you can't afford a limo scene either.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Right. That's funny. I didn't I didn't hear that story before. Like that's an interesting one, but but it kind of leads me into like what I did learn about him is that he had quite a sense of humor, right, about things. Yeah. Um, and he he managed to turn any situation into into into kind of an introspective and and and um something that's understandable to the masses. So so that that's funny, but I'm not surprised that he would be that witty and that clever and funny about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah, he was known for his comedic stage presence. That's why everyone loved his shows, you know, and he would just stop and make jokes and talk to the crowd in between sets. Um after he went, he finished high school, he went to Lincoln University, and that's where he met his longtime co-writer, Brian Jackson. They met, I think Brian Jackson said that he had uh all these songs that he was trying to work on that he figured it would take him like five years to do. And then he met Gil and Gil asked him, I think he said he asked him two things like, What were you thinking and how were you feeling when you wrote this? And then he just took it from there and just they just became good friends and co-writers uh since then when they met at at Lincoln University. Um so that's where that's what like a quick segue into like his beginnings.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Right, right. And and he and he I I saw I saw an interview with him, right? And he talks about one of the reasons that he went to he wanted to go to Lincoln University is because Langs and Hughes actually went there. So, you know, like you were saying, like his grandmother used to read Lynx and Hughes, and that was a big influence for him. Um Langston Hughes actually attended Lincoln University as well, as well as Thurgood Marshall, um, Kwame and Kruma, um, and Melvin Tolson. So he mentions that in an interview, and that was part of the one of the big reasons why he wanted to go there. Because at the time, Lincoln University seemed to be a place for especially black folks that wanted to to kind of think think about things deeply and get together with like-minded, like-minded individuals. Um, and he was able to do that there.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Mm-hmm. So that's what that's where his story begins. He also called himself the bluesologist. He was that was he always called himself the bluesologist because of his love for blues. Along with Langson Hughes, some of his early influences were BB King, Bobby Blueber, Bobby Blue Band, Bobby Blue Bland.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

Easy for you to say.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

And uh he was also a big Coltrain fan, him and Brian Jackson as well. So a lot of his early spoken word was done along like jazz music.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Right. Yeah, he I think even has a song about like that that talks about that relic Lady Day and Coltrain.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Lady Day and Coltrain, yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

And his first his first um album was 1970, and it was called Small Talk at 125th and Lennox, I believe. I believe that was his first his first album in in 1970. And it was off of his like spoken word. But was that a book too? Was that like did he put that in a book form? That would that I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't see.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

That I'm not sure. I do know it was an album as well. Um it was a spoken word album, and it was actually he was signed to Flying Dutchman Records at the time.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Um, but yeah, I don't I don't know. I didn't I didn't I in my research I didn't see anything that that that showed it as a as a book as well.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Um because the when I when I was researching, he had a couple of novels that he had written. And I was just amazed, man. Basically, like like I you know, I know Gil Scott Heron. I'm familiar with him from the work that that he that I'm familiar with, right? That's the music, the poetry, um, the albums that we've been able to to to um to consume over the years, the sampling that's been done by hip-hop artists, stuff like that, right? But then in doing a little bit of deeper research, like I didn't even know this history of him writing a novel at like 19, 20 years old. Yeah. Um he actually dropped out of Lincoln University freshman year to to just to finish um one of his novels. Right. Um, and then he he w he went on to get his his um get a a master's in, I think, creative writing from Johns Hopkins.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Um so we'll talk about that in a minute too, because because I it it just led me to a couple of callbacks in terms of my memory and of our own conversations where it comes to education and the importance of of education when when we compare it to the trades, right? Um while the trades are important and and everything you know they can lead you to a lucrative career, right? Um reading about Gil Scott Heron and then going and and watching some of his um his interviews, it led me to rethink a couple of things about education as well, right? But we'll we'll get into that in a moment, but but but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Yeah. One of the things that I also I also found interested in that he was the first artist on Arista Records.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

I thought that was interesting too. The first artist on Arista Records.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

The first artist for and that was Clive Davis at the time running running that, right? Mm-hmm. He's the founder of Arista Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

He had out the um the in the bottle song, which which my father was actually let me know how popular that song was, in the bottle. Um, and I heard that they said back then when that song was out, if you if they didn't play it at the club, the DJ was trash. You know what I mean? Everybody was asking for the in the bottle. So when Clive Davis, when when this song came across Clive Davis' desk, I guess he figured he had to sign him. Uh he I think he did nine albums on Arista. He was the very first artist so uh signed, and then after him was Barry Manilo.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Well, that's a stark contrast, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, yeah. So he did nine, I think it's nine. Maybe it's maybe there was a posthumous uh album, but he physically, I believe himself, he recorded nine albums with Arista. Uh Clive Davis mentioned he envisioned him being like this disco pop-ish type musician star. He thought he was gonna keep getting the up tempo in the bottle top music. But Gil Scar Gil Scott had a mind of his own. You know, he knew what he wanted, how he wanted to say his music, how he wanted to get his his music out there. So um, yeah, he was like he he he envisioned him being a totally different artist, but Gil had not would have none of it. Right he was locked in to what he wanted to do, who he wanted to say it to, and what he wanted to be as an artist.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Yeah. That makes sense, because it but it feels like you know, you you hear a hit record as as a you know, as the head of a of a record company, just want to keep turning those out, right? Like you want you want it to be a money machine, but he's trying to get a message across, right? And whether or not it you it's sonically pleasing to you seem to be like secondary or just like a plus.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

One of my favorite I've I feel personally his best work, I think, is his second, his second like album is is uh Pieces of a Man.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Pieces of a Man, yeah. I like that one.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah, that's my joint. That's my joint. So something different here that I want to try here on the Gen Expertise Podcast too. Go for it. Is that uh there's three songs that I picked personally off of this album that I like. Three of my favorite album, three of my favorite songs off of this album, and what I want to do is I'm gonna say a verse or two from each of them, and then we can discuss like how we feel about it. Okay, world. Mane didn't even know we were gonna do it. Surprise, surprise. You know, so we'll be dodging and weaving in and out, weaving in and out, but staying.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Are you gonna sing or are you gonna just no a spoken word only and the honor of Gil Scott Heron?

SPEAKER_02 19:39

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 19:40

And so don't get it twisted, but don't yeah, don't get it twisted. Some of the some of the some of his spoken word was was pretty melodic in the bottom.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Spoken word only, son. But he lived the interesting, he lived a very interesting life. Um to say the least, yeah. To say the least, man. I forgot that he did the song Johannesburg. Everybody knows uh the revolution will not be televised. Right. Um, that's probably what he's most famous for. You will not be able to plug in, turn on, or cop out. That's right. The revolution will not be televised. So that's probably what he's best known for. Uh and Johannesburg, I didn't know. That was a popular song, and he always said that he felt like he got on the train late when it came to like talking about the rights and the oppression of South A South Africa.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

Yeah, I saw I s I saw that in one of his interviews where he said that he he was late even learning about the situation and he felt bad about like being so late and and even knowing what was going on over there.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

So he, you know, he lived a life. He lived the life. He passed, I believe, in May of 2011.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

2011, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

2011. And I think Kanye performed at his funeral.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Yeah, I believe Kanye performed at his funeral in 2011. The song that he performed, I'm not sure. I'm not sure, but I'm I'm thinking maybe it was like My Way Home. Maybe it was, yeah, maybe it was my way home. That was a dope song. I must have listened to it like 10 times in a row, and I was, and that's where that's where my inspiration came from. Did he hell? So, the first song that I have, which is Pieces of a Man.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

And and just to be clear, I don't really have any songs that I'm going to perform.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

So I just want to be clear on that. Don't expect Maine to be home is where the hatred is. And it might not be such a bad idea for never now. You know what? Let's let's stop here.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

So, first, so what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna take two verses.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

You can edit that out if you want.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

I'm kinda nah, that's the name.

unknown 21:59

So

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I'm gonna take two verses, and this is from Pieces of a Man, off Pieces of a Man album, 1971. I'm gonna take the second and the fourth verse, and it goes, I saw my daddy greet the mailman, and I heard the mailman say, Now don't you take this letter to heart now, Jimmy, because they've laid off nine others today. But he didn't know what he was saying. He could hardly understand that he was only talking to pieces of a man. Pieces of that letter were tossed about the room, and now I hear the sound of sirens come knifing through the room. But they don't know what they are doing. They could hardly understand that they're only arresting pieces of a man. Um so the good thing about a lot of his songs though, there's not a lot of verses. So there's like, you know, this one has about like four verses, four to five verses. So I took the second and the fourth because this song in particular makes me think of like just uh being a father and knowing what times were like through hearing my parents or my uncles or relatives talk about times in the 60s and the 70s, and imagine um but for first of all, yo, the mailman is nosy as I don't know what the mailman's like, yo, bro, this like the next lever had to deserve that he knows what the button the mailman knows everything, son. But even it starts off with like him in his in his grandmother's house and his father's like tearing up the house. So he gets this back, he gets this notice that you know he's being laid off of work and he's not the only one. This is you know, there's probably more after him as well.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

And so it's just like this decline, this almost like mental and physical decline of a man in front of his child who's watching him go through this, and now it's like, how am I gonna support my family? I'm a man, I need to take care of myself, I need to take care of my family, and to like have a job and to be invested and to work at something and to have it taken away from you, you know, is is like is heartbreaking, man. Like it's it's just I really feel it as a father, because it's our job to provide, to take care of our family, to take care of our of our children, just when to listen to it and then how he's he's upset, he's tearing up the house. And then it's a it's just kind of you see both perspectives. You see his perspective, but you also see the child's perspective is what they're looking at, and they're looking at this their father who they thought was this pillar of a person, uh-huh, who is someone that you look up to, that you depend on, and you just see them in like their weakest state.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

You know, and I I think that just as a father and as a parent all together, just thinking like dogs, what what would you do in that situation where it's like maybe it's hopeless because you know, jobs weren't weren't weren't coming that easy back then.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

You know what I'm saying? Especially as a as a as a black father, black or brown man in America, it wasn't easy to get a job, so when you got something you held on to it like your life depended on it, and usually it did. Sure. You know, so so that that that one really that one really touched me, man. That really touched me.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Right. And absol absolutely. And and I think the the other thing that it that it makes me think of is the fact that it's kind of a plea by the subject of of the the poem, right? Like saying, like, you know, they don't know that they're only he's delivering this letter to pieces of a man, or they don't know that they're arresting pieces of a man. It speaks to kind of the indignities that this person is suffering before this happens, right? It speaks to like a history of this, like a a knowing uh disappointment, a knowing of being kind of degraded and diminished over time, right? So he's saying that they don't know that you know they're dealing with pieces of a man in these situations, but he knows like he feels that's how he feels about himself, even before the letter comes. Yeah, even before the arrest happens. He's talking about the fact that they don't know they're dealing with pieces of a man, but he does. Like he's he's it's introspective in in that way, and that part is chilling, it's scary almost to me to think of to think of that for the same reason you're saying is because as a father now, um knowing that your role, at least a large part of your role, is to is to at least be helping with um with providing for your family. You know, in modern day times, like, you know, there's a there's a shared responsibility, obviously. But like in in, you know, so we're talking about like the 60s, 70s, stuff like that, where um we're at the the civil rights movement. We're talking about the the the the heart of the civil rights move movement. And that that what everything that's happening in that time period would lead a person to to have lived through several indignities, several instances where they've been diminished, where they've been degraded, where they've been humiliated, probably, that would lead them to think of themselves as not a full man, not a full human, but pieces of one. Because so many pieces have been taken away, so much has been damaged and and and scarred and and um destroyed that you are by this point, you're only dealing with pieces of a person anyway. Yeah, right. Um, and I find it like really profound the way Gil Scott Heron is able to um to convey that message. I don't want to call it simple because it's not simple. Simple's not the right word. That's not the word I'm looking for, but it's very uh it's a very direct and straightforward, and at the time, just using the vernacular of the time to to deliver this type of feeling is um it's a it's a skill, right? It's it's a it's a really profound skill.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah. Even the cadence that he uses in it on these like pieces of a man. You know, he said that it's sad. It's almost like it's gut-wrenching. It's like, like you said, you go out into the world, you start off whole, and you go out to the world, and every time you come home, it's just like a chip of this chips. It's like a small hole here, small hole there, small hole here. And and you could only get so much duct tape. You know what I'm saying? Like, until it's until it's what it's till it's finally like like your soul is bearing. You you you know what I mean? Like you can't even hide it from your children, from your wife, from your mother, from your father, from whoever that that you live with. It's just like spilling out. It's a crazy song. The visuals on it, it's crazy, the cadence on it is crazy how how he's just singing it, and he's kind of like breaking down each verse, how he's it's talking with like it's just ill. It's just the genius of Gil Scott Heron, you know. So, what you got for us, brother? What information do you have for us?

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Oh, I was about to say, like, I I told you that I'm not gonna be out here. Yeah, yeah. So mine is kind of quick on this one, right? Because it because as part of my research, like I was, like I said, I was like looking up interviews by Gil Scott Heron and learning about like kind of what he thought of himself. Because a lot of times we, you know, you and I talk on the podcast about what we think of certain topics, we give our opinion um and how things made us feel and such like that, right? But but I what I was finding is is that I was able to hear about him and his own words, and I thought that was interesting because a lot of times when we look up information, even I'm finding like third parties talking about the subject that we're researching at the time, right? Um and one of the things that that that came to mind was the the um the revolution will not be televised, right? You already said that that's one of his most popular works, and if you don't know about that, um I really highly recommend you look it up. Like me and you know, Rance and I always make recommendations about books, about TV shows, about movies, but Gil Scott Heron's work is is something that I can't recommend enough. Um but especially the revolution will not be televised, and especially for those of us that feel like we're in a situation where we're looking at um a government or like a system that seems kind of um undefeatable or seems to be kind of trampling on on everybody's rights, um, if that's a feeling that you've ever had, even not just now, but like if there's a feeling you ever had of like kind of hopelessness and and um what can I do to to to correct any of this, or or what does my little voice matter? Um something like the revolution will not be televised, kind of it's it's meant to give a message, but it's also kind of hopeful, right? And and I I'll explain in like kind of what I mean about by that, right? Because in in his own words, he's saying that it was parody, right? Um and I found that to be a little surprise. I'm like, wow, this is a deep poem, and it's really about revolution, it's about fighting an oppressive system. And he's saying that it was parody. And and the reason he's saying it's parody is because he had a way of kind of putting humor into a very serious topic, right? Like so something like saying that that the that the revolution would not be televised is really kind of poking fun at those that that would be sitting back and kind of in a couch potato or or armchair quarterback type of way, thinking that that some change is gonna come and they'll be able to see it on television. And the message that he's trying to deliver is that the change that we're seeking is not gonna happen by being passive and and watching on television. Um it's gonna happen first in your mind, right? And I thought that was that was a big kind of um I don't want to say it's a revelation because I I've I I've kind of heard that before, but it was just like something, it was almost a reminder that whatever change you're looking for is not gonna happen as you look at a screen, right? And it was profound because it's like, okay, he's talking about this in it in like 1970 and 1971, right? And now in 2026, there's a different type of call for change, but some of it is happening from a screen. A lot of the protests, a lot of the um, a lot of the the rage that you're seeing is from folks that are kind of look staring at a screen, a much smaller screen nowadays, but I think the message is still the same. Like your Scott Heron is still, he would still tell us, like, hey, it's all well and good to get information from these screens and and and to, you know, he would also warn us that we need to filter out um some of the misinformation. Because even then, even back in 1971, and you know, he was saying that that hey, a lot of the information that we're getting on the television is false, right? It's it's tailored um to give us a certain message, to create a narrative, right? And more so than ever, his words ring true in 2026. It's it's ramped up to the point of being kind of an art form, like it is it's become a science. But now we have we have our phones, we have we still have the TV, we got our computers, we have our tablets to deliver these messages, right? But it's almost like he he kind of he he was saying it in a in a in a way that was like just easy to consume, is what is what I guess the real point I'm trying to make about the parody side of it, and the fact that the message still rings true, even in 2026, and probably more so than ever, given the powerful way that that that message could be conveyed, the powerful way that misinformation could be spread in in the speed of light, literally.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

I think Michael Jackson kind of had the man in the mirror song. You know what I'm saying? It's like it gotta start with you, and it was this was like kind of like the early version. Look, you can't just sit there waiting to watch it, you can't be sit there waiting for somebody else to say it or somebody else to do it. It's not gonna be there for you to watch. So it's it takes a it's at some point you have to get up out your chair, you have to get up out your seat and stand up for what you believe in to stand up for your rights or whatever that they you need to stand up for. And this is 1970 that he said this. Do you know what I mean? So he's he's far ahead of his time in the way, and like you said, now it's ten times worse. Now it's everywhere. Yeah, you know, with the dogs.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Yeah, exactly. Like now, now you're you're pretty much carrying a a propaganda machine around in your pocket.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

And if you're not very, very careful about the information that you're consuming and and being kind of a um kind of a uh a skeptic consumer, right? Um you could be misled pretty easily. Like if if you're not going into it with a certain mindset that that some of this information is is false. And then also having the mindset that everything I'm seeing on either television or online doesn't exactly translate to what is really going on outside, right? Like, so it's very important to kind of examine the world um for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

And he talks about that, right? Like, because even on television, you know, somebody gets shot, you know, once they once the director yelks cut, you know, the person gets right back up and redo the scene, but you can't, you know, he he describes like a a kid shooting someone and saying, Oh, I saw it on television and it looked like nobody got hurt, so I went out and did it, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Saying that you we have to have like a certain amount of space for everyone to learn that things that are happening on the screen are not necessarily um in sync with what's happening in the real world. So I I just thought that was it was just interesting how the message still rings true, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Yeah. Alright, I have my next contribution. Go for it. Is Home Is Where the Hatred Is. Also off the Pieces of a Man album.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

You're gonna sing in this one? No.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

I don't know. I might I might get a little rhythmic.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

What happens? Like, we're not getting paid for this, so if we start singing, will they will they remove this from uh probably not because we're still nobody? We're not important enough for anybody to censor us.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

You know, so I will start off. I left three days ago.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

But no one seems to know I'm gone. Home is where the hatred is. Home is filled with pain, and it might not be such a bad idea if I never went home again. Home again, home again. And then stand as far away from me as you can and ask me why. Hang on to your rosary bees, close your eyes to watch me die. You keep saying, kick it, quit it, kick it, quit it. God, but did you ever try to turn your sick soul inside out so the world, so that the world can watch you die. You know, that is so unfortunately we're children of the 80s and we grew up.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Fortunately or unfortunately, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Unfortunately or unfortunately, either which way, we grew up through the drug era, through the crack, the crack era. We grew up with and you know what? As I as I was um listening to this, the more I listen to it, the more I realize how bad of a problem. Like it transcends all barriers, man. True. You know what I'm saying? Addiction transcends all barriers. And it it can't just it it can be whatever, whatever is your choice, whatever's your demon, whatever consumes you, it it has no barrier, it has no color. It's it's it's probably um the least racist thing. Addiction is probably the least racist thing when you sit in the jar, like it's coming from it for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

And to hear it does not discriminate, right? Like, it does not discriminate at all. Addiction does not discriminate.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Addiction does not discriminate. And many of us, myself, Maine, and a lot of our listeners, we grew up and we may have friends or family members who were strung out or addicted to drugs or they or alcohol or whatever their vices was. And this is just such a like and and one of the things is you just it's it's almost like to say like I can't go back home, like there's nothing there for me. You know what I mean? Like the pain is so much to bear that he can't go home because no one is gonna understand. And they keep telling him like like it's easy just to kick it, quit it, kick it, quit it. And he's like, Yo, did you ever try? Have you uh do you know how hard it is to get off of this? Um you know, it's just it's just it's just such a sad thing because it it's personal too, because like I said, we all know somebody. And then it's a certain level of understanding when I listen to it, uh, and it's like, yeah, you know, you just you just want them to get off of it, to get to to get the monkey off their back, so to speak, but it's not as easy as you as a person who's not addicted to the substance. It's not it's just not that easy. So the level of compassion isn't always there. And here this person is suffering, and Lord knows they want to, but they can't, but they also can't come back home because they know as soon as they come back home, all you're gonna be telling them is like, yo, get yourself together, you should do this, you should do that. So it's like an endless cycle that shows you like just how bad drugs are in the community, how it's ravaged families and destroyed friendships.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

He's actually quoted as saying, I and I'm I'm gonna paraphrase this, but he says, like, sometimes I beat it and other times it whoops my eye behind.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Yeah. Yeah, he never hit his drug abuse. Yeah, he never he never hit his drug drug abuse.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

He was very open about that. Like he told stories about times where he he went to jail, he got caught with with with drugs on on his person, right? And and he he did some time for that. But um, but yeah, I thought I thought that that resonated, right? When he said sometimes I beat it and other times it whoops my behind, right? Like, and and um because that could be for anything, not not just addiction. I know you know, like we're being specific about the addiction, but it feels like that's kind of a a metaphor, like an analy analogy for for a lot of things in life. Like sometimes you beat it, and then sometimes it whoops you behind. Like it speaks to like a universal truth of like constantly struggling against anything that that that you're having an extremely hard time with. But in this in this case, like you're saying, like we grew up in a time where addiction wasn't it wasn't surprising when you've if you heard folks were addicted to something, right? Because the crash epidemic seemed to be sweeping through the nation at at some point in the 80s, especially, um, where it just wasn't a surprise anymore. Like when you when you started hearing more and more people um were addicted to this, and you started seeing for yourself, even um, and you know, and it became personal if it's like a family member or a friend of yours, somebody that that used to, even like just a neighborhood person who used to see them, and now it's it it's very obvious that they're they're addicted and they're kind of chasing that high at this point, right? Yeah, um, and it definitely devastated the neighborhoods. Um it it it definitely swept through the neighborhood like a like a tsunami, man. Like pretty much touched and and damn near destroyed every everything.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Everything. And then you're talking now you're talking about him making this in 1971, so that's right off the heels of the um heroin heroin pandemic, you know, which just destroyed Harlem. You know what I mean? In in particular. So um it's it's it's it's very it's just like when you listen when you listen to his music, like I I haven't sat down and really listened to his music in a long time. And I was just like just listening to the songs, just listening to the songs, and and you can really feel his music, man. You know what I mean? Like you can really his music was so um present and ahead of its time, all at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

Yeah, and and and to be honest with you, man, like I I I started listening to him uh like more and more, like as I heard like some hip-hop artists kind of sampling pieces of of his songs, right? And I actually stopped listening to it for kind of for this reason. No, I'm just full, you know, full disclosure, some of the music was so dark and so um vivid that it would affect your mood, right? Like, like you know, if you're listening to something that's about some sadness or some tragedy in the you know, like something that's a societal statement, some of that stuff was just almost too much to bear, you know. Like I'm not gonna lie. Um something like home is where the hatred is, like I can only listen to that maybe once, and then I I put it down for for long long periods of time, um, at least not in its entirety. Some of it is pretty melodic, and I can I can listen to the hook or something and just just feel the vibe of it, but I can't listen to that whole song more than like once in a in a long stretch of time, right? Um and again, man, like like it speaks to how easily he was able to convey what's happening in the in in this little kind of microcosm of society um and get you to understand it. It feels like like he would just use the simplest terms, but simple doesn't seem to do it justice. But yeah, it's like just the mo the most direct and straightforward, but yet pretty profound. And and you and you I guess you could almost see like the the Langston Hughes um kind of influence there, because Langston Hughes. He was at a similar style of being able to speak in the vernacular of the time, but still deliver you a message that's profound, right? Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

And he said that's why he he really loved Lynx and Hughes because it would be a guy like just getting kicked around, but then he would kind of come out on top at the end of like of his poems. So that's why he was a fan of Lanks and Hughes. And then he decided, I guess, to go a different approach and he went.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

I mean, it was it was such realism, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah, and and then it's you know, he they both speak to him like kind of the resilience over people, right? Like, you know. Um, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

I always say that the point of communication is to get a point across. You know, and I feel like they're using the vernacular and uh the lingo that he uses, it puts you straight like in a house with your friends, or it puts you at a table with your family, or it puts you in the barbershop, or it puts you on the corner 125th and Lennox, and it puts you where this is how we speak, this is what it is. So it's no deciphering words, it's very direct, it's very to the point. Um, and the way that he sings the songs with um like he really conveys the pain in his voice with not even being like you would no one would call him a great singer. You know what I'm saying? He's just a uh a spoken word guy, a melodic, like spoken word, but the pain in his voice and the anguish, it's almost like you're sitting next to him watching. Right, you know, and that's a gift. Like that's not not too many people can can do that, can let you feel like you've closed your eyes and you're sitting in that room with him. You know what I mean? Or you close your eyes and you're sitting there watching his father find out that he's been laid off. He's good. All right, what you got for us next, homeboy?

SPEAKER_03 46:03

All right, you know what I'm gonna sing now, because I don't have anything. No, I'm I'm kidding. Nah, so so one of the things that people may not know, the mayor may not know, depending on on who you are and how closely you you even followed, but um Gil Scott Heron was also known as the godfather of hip-hop, you know. And that's interesting because of like again, again, like in watching interviews with him, I was able to get his take on things. And it's easy for us to like kind of look at a at somebody in a as a historical figure and start to give our opinions and say, oh, he was the godfather of hip-hop because of the similarities and in styles, right? Like where you have a person taking melody, taking music, and they're basically talking over it. Like that spoken word style over music is kind of the basis of of hip-hop. That's the core of hip-hop, basically. Like where you're taking, you're taking music. Um, in the case of hip-hop artists, you know, it was usually taking samples, um, looping those samples up, and you know, adding whatever flavor to it they wanted, and then basically talking over that and making it kind of match up in a way that that would would be pleasing to the ear, right? But um a couple of things came out of the the interviews that I that I was listening to with Gil Scott Heron. And when he was asked, like how he felt about being being labeled the the godfather of hip hop, it seemed like he had like kind of a mixed feeling about it. Like it seemed like I in in one vein, he felt that it was a good thing that if he was able to contribute in such a way where people got something positive out of it and felt that it was it was something to be kind of um emulated or or something to be carried on, so to speak. And um he felt that if he had contributed something that significant that people felt it was necessary to carry on, um he he was really fine with that and he only thought it was awesome. Like if you want to call him the godfather, he's fine with that.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:58

Right. But then there was also another side of it where he was asked um about what he thought of uh of the similarities between what he was doing and hip-hop artists. And I was surprised to hear him say that that that he didn't I was surprised at first, I should say, because when he he explained himself really well, like he had a very, a very good knack, obviously, you know, he had a good way with words, right? So at first I'm thinking to myself, like, wow, he didn't really see himself as similar to hip-hop artists. But when he explained it, it made a lot of sense, right? Because what he was saying, and and especially for the time he's saying this, um, he's saying this like early on, earlier on in like hip-hop's kind of um, you know, like Genesis, and and then when it becomes popular, he's he's saying that there's a difference. And the difference that he describes is that when he was making his his work, if if he made, if he put together the words first, right, he would make music that went along with those words exactly, right? Like he he it was he was creating a whole composition, he's saying, to convey this message. It wasn't he said that the difference was that he wasn't taking like a sample or a piece of of some other music and putting it together and and kind of trying to match it up so it so it matched the words. He was actually creating both so they matched each other, like at the same time. Like he he was developing music, he was composing the music, putting together the arrangement, and making it so it perfectly matched what he was trying to convey with the words, right? Yeah, so it to me it was almost like the same idea as if like we were narrating um uh a movie or a video that we created. Like, so if if you and I create a video together or we create a movie together, and then we narrate that, we're trying to convey this message. Just just it just so happens that we're using these two separate mediums, but we're creating both and putting them together in such a way that it conveys the message in the way that the exact way that we want to, right? And I'm and I'm trying to and I'm trying to be a wordsmith in the way I'm explaining this right now. Yeah, and I'm hoping that it that that it's that it makes sense what I'm saying, but he's saying that that would that would be the difference in in his mind, that that he's creating something that that is one body of work by the time he's done, as opposed to taking from any other body of work and then kind of layering his own his self on top of it. The whole thing is himself because he's composing it, arranging it, and the words are go with it perfectly because that's the way he has it in his mind. And he and he and he doesn't disparage hip-hop in any way, right? Like I want to make that clear that he's not saying that that what hip hop is doing is bad in any way, but he's just saying that there's a there's a difference. He almost seems surprised that that people kind of um kind of didn't get that part, right? They just kind of uh they automatically said that that okay, people are making this jump from okay, Gil Scott Aaron's doing this is the same thing, and now the kids are are are doing it now.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

You know, like they they nobody was able to kind of comparison.

SPEAKER_03 51:10

Exactly, exactly. I guess it was a lazy comparison. It was a lazy comparison. And the other thing that that kind of struck me a little bit is when he was asked um what he thought of gangster rap at the time. And in some some instances, like the media tends to do sometimes, they were like fishing for for like a story. Like they wanted him to say something sensational, right? And and I thought what he said showed like a mastery again of words. Because at first he starts to say like he doesn't think that all these artists are are actually coming from the the places that that they're they're describing. Like they're not coming from the hardship or or the struggle that they're actually describing and and they're and or or especially if they're glorifying it, yeah. He didn't think that they all came from that, right? And he said he said, of course, some of them do, but he just don't believe that all of them do. But but then he says something that I thought was really like, you know, like I said, like it's just a great way of explaining his take on it was that you can't describe all of it in one sentence. And I think what he what he meant was that you know, the interviewer is trying to get him to say something, and it almost sounded like they were fishing for like, you know, like a next one. Early clickbait, yeah. Yeah, early clickbait, like like clickbait before clickbait. And he's saying that, hey, I I can't describe all of this to you in one, or everything I think about this in one sentence, or you know, so he can't just break it down you know so simply as to describe all of hip-hop and all hip-hop artists in in the course of this this short interview, right? Um, and I thought that was a good way to put it because hip-hop has like a lot of different layers. There's gangster rap, there's conscious rap, and it and there's a lot in between, right? There's a there's a lot of like unlabeled um type of styles that it will be hard for me to describe to everyone. And hard, it was definitely hard for me to explain to my father that all of this is not just a bunch of people cursing and and and talking nonsense about a bunch of mamma jahambo as uh main sauce. Yeah, yeah. So exactly. Shout out to main source. I guess what I'm trying to say is like it it made me think back to when I would try to explain to my father, this is not all just gangsters talking about you know nonsense. Like some of this is some there are artists that are talking about real stuff that's happening. There are artists that have a message, and it was kind of hard for me to explain it all in the course of like just one, you know, one debate or one argument where my father saying, oh, this is nonsense, it's all negative, it's all you know, you know, and and when it to hear him as Gil Scott Heron, like kind of a master of words, kind of trying to set this this reporter straight, this journalist straight, was um, it kind of just it kind of just resonated with me. Because there's been times where I've had to have that conversation. I'm sure a lot of us we've had to kind of defend hip-hop sometimes, where people have come directly in a debate, you know, and said, like, hey, you know, what about this? What about the misogyny? What about the the all the drug dealing and violence and the glorification of these activities? And we had to let people know, like, listen, like there's a certain level of um narrative and journalism to that too, like where they're describing things that are happening, but then there's all types of other hip-hop where they're not even talking about that, they're talking about other things. There's a message in it, there's positivity in it, there's beauty in it, there's there's art in it, right? Um, so so yeah, that that was that was that was you know a couple of things that I that I took from from interviews with him. Like just his um, they would try to nudge him in a certain direction in terms of like what they were trying to get him to say.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

Yeah, he always seemed like he was in control of the of the interview.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

He always felt like like it always felt like he got what what they were trying to do. Yeah, and he would always explain to them why what they're trying to do is is not really the point.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

Yeah, because he was very I also saw in one of the docs that I was looking at, he was talking about the difference in what he did, and it it was almost like he was kind of like artists know what I'm talking about. Like you're not a real artist, so you don't you don't understand what I'm trying to convey. He wasn't talking bad or talking down on the genre, he was just talking about just process-wise, like my process of doing it is totally different from what these new these you new young kids are doing. It's a totally different process. The way I I I put everything together is just different. And that doesn't mean it's bad, but it just means that it's different. Like look what what I do and look how he prepares and look how I prepare, and you'll see, you know, to the trained eye, so to speak, you'll notice this is way different. Besides the fact that it's like spoken word uh over music, it's it's no real comparison in his in his eyes, you know. It's like I do what I do and they do what they do. Sure, I might have inspired some of them, so you may hear parts and bits of uh what I do in their music, but it's different. He's not like the last poet. That's right. Right, you know what I mean? Like he's different from the last poets. But if you see, if you listen to it at first, you'd be like, oh, this is just some last poet stuff.

SPEAKER_03 56:19

Like you said, it's a it's a lazy comparison.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Yeah, it's a lazy comparison, but it it is different at the same time. Sure, sure, he was inspired at a certain point by the last poets, you know, but then he took it to where he wanted to take it and he did it and he infused all of this blues and jazz and funk and all types of different background musics and cadences in his spoken word that made him totally different from anything else that was out there. And and if you think about it, what since uh Gil Scott Heron, who's made anything that's really similar to what he's done, even close to what he's done? Maybe they took a piece here and there, but no one has really been able to replicate the genius of of Gil Scott Heron.

SPEAKER_03 57:06

Right. Because you because you're talking about a person that's a musician, a poet, a singer, you know, a writer, obviously. So you're talking about different layers of of um just different layers, right? Yeah. Um so yeah, I I think that's a good way to put it, man. Um that the process is is is way different, too, is is a good way to to to explain that.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

So I have this is my last entry of the album, The Pieces of a Man. And this is my favorite. This is my favorite, favorite. I think I'll call it morning, you know.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

Yes, that's a actually a positive upbeat. Yeah, I mean, upbeat in terms of like the messaging.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

Yeah. Yes, uh. I'm gonna take myself a piece of sunshine and paint it all over my sky. Be no rain. Be no rain. I'm gonna take the song from every bird and make them sing it just for me. Yeah. Birds got something to teach us all about being free. Yeah, be no rain, be no rain. And I think I'll call it morning from now on. Why should I survive on sadness and tell myself I got to be alone? Why should I subscribe to this world's madness knowing that I've got to live on? Knowing that I've got to live on, knowing that I've got to live on. Yeah, I think I'll call it morning from now on. That's my joint. And I I've heard that he said that this is what he liked to play himself every morning when he got up. He would like play this song. This is one of his favorite songs that he's recorded. And it's just like, yo, nothing, I'm not gonna let anything get me down. I'm gonna I'm gonna paint my own picture. I'm not gonna let anybody kind of infiltrate my happiness. Um, even if I have to pull happiness from something else. If something else that I see, I'm going to make my personal ecosystem.

SPEAKER_03 59:08

See what you did there. You know, that's what you call a callback, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Um so that that's my favorite Gil Scott Heron song. That's interesting. That's your favorite. Like, I think that's a good thing. That's my favorite, man.

SPEAKER_03 59:26

To me, to me, I it's a happy song, and and and it's it's it's it's awesome. But it's it's interesting to me, man, because I know I just said like some of some of his some of his music, his work, his poetry, even is hard for me to listen to. Like, it's hard for me to listen to it like kind of back to back or or or or I can't listen to it and then go back to it quickly. Like I have to listen to it and then leave it alone for a while because of the it just gives you like kind of a dark vibe, some some of it, right?

SPEAKER_04 59:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:57

But at the same time, I know it's like it's almost like somebody that loves horror movies or something. I don't know, it's a bad analogy, but yeah, but it's like you know how you like to be scared, or like, but yeah, you like, but you're not gonna watch a scary, that same scary movie back to back. Like, I'm not gonna watch Scream tonight and then watch it again tomorrow, right? Like, I'm not gonna watch like it tonight and then watch it again tomorrow. But that's how I feel about some of some of his work. That that even though it kind of makes me, it gives me that eerie feeling or it gives me that that melancholy and sadness sometimes, I I do want to hear it again. And it and and the my favorites are the ones that are actually the saddest ones, right? Like when I hear me and the devil, that's a it's an eerie, weird feeling, but but but it's something about the messaging and it's something about what he's trying to say there that I feel like it needs to be heard, right? And and and I and the way he's saying it, the way he's conveying it, it is something I that I want to hear again. Like I want to hear from him like this this message, right? When he talks about me and the devil, because I I feel like you know, and maybe this is just my interpretation, but it it feels to me the same as like a um home is where the hatred is, right? Like it seems even like almost you're deeper down that home is where the hatred is, right? Like from home is where the hatred is, where he's questioning whether or not he should even go home because he's deep in this hole. He got the monkey on his back, he's addicted to drugs, and going home only means more conflict and causing pain and and being having pain inflicted on him as well. Now you got me and the devil walking side by side, he says, and it's like you know, to me, you're even deeper down the rabbit hole of drug addiction. You're deeper down the rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

It's like you accepted your fate, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:46

Yeah, like now, yeah, now you've you've you've joined in, like strange bedfellows, as they say. Right. It's it's almost like a if you can't beat them, join them type of song, right? Like where it's like, okay, it's part of my being, it it's it's a it's a partner, it's a you know, it's it's what I wear, um, for better or worse, right? Also, Whitey on the moon, right? But he says it in such like it's so clever, yeah. Uh that it's almost like one of those parodies again, like, you know, he says, like a rat done bit my my my sister Nell with Whitey on the moon. Her face and arms began to swell with Whitey's on the moon. I can't pay no doctor bills, but whitey's on the moon. You know, in 10 years I'll I'll be paying still, but Whitey's on the moon. So that when it that and it's a short poem, right? But it's but it's it's profound to me because it encapsulates everything that's wrong with capitalism, everything that's wrong with society can be encapsulated in this very short poem, Whitey's on the moon. Because it's talking about the you know, you the the use of our funds, the use of our tax money for like big, huge projects that may seem, you know, to some, like, of course, it's incredible. Like, you know, that to be able to put a man on the moon, to be able to, like we talked about the Artemis too, um, to be able to just even circumcircumnavigate the the moon is is is tremendous, right? Of course. But if if the same place that that can do the these tremendous and miraculous feats cannot find its way to help its own people and to feed its own people, then we have like a an obvious imbalance. And if you are aware of this and not speaking on it, then what are you doing? Right, especially as an artist, as a person with a platform, he's saying that if if you're seeing something, it's it's it you have to say something. If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything. And that was his big thing about, you know, he talks about, and I'm quoting here and I'm kind of paraphrasing, but he talks about calling a spade a spade, right? He's saying that that just because he and and this is another quote by him, he said, just because somebody takes you for your money or steals your money, you know, you might get taken, but as a that doesn't mean you gotta be quiet about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:57

And he had like I said, man, simple is not the right word, but but that's the only word I can think of as a non-poet. It's just like he has such a simple way of conveying these these these messages, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:08

Because it sounds like something like your uncle tells you at Thanksgiving. Or you know what I'm saying? When he's outside outside with the paper brow paper bag, and he's getting he's hitting you with knowledge, and he's like, yo, let me tell you something, youngster. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

Yes, exactly. It has that like you know, small talk on 125th in Lennox, or you're up in the Bronx, or you're up at your, you know, you're at your uncle's house, or you're at your parents' house, and your uncle tells you these simple things, yeah, or your father might tell you these simple things, but it's it's not simple, it's profound, it's universal truth. We're seeing these things, we're seeing that we're living in a place that can do these miraculous things, like I said, but can't make its way to to to um to feed its people or or to make sure that they have proper health care, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:53

Where are our priorities?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:54

Right. And even and and and then when you talk about it comes full circle, when you think about like Tupac saying, you know, they got money for war but can't feed the poor. So so when you talk about him as the as the as the the godfather of hip-hop, it to me, it's not just the you know, it's not just about the differences in the process, and and we and I definitely agree with him that there's a diff there is a difference in the process. I agree with you there's a difference in the process. But there is that like obvious parallel of like a message that that is is like simply put, but is conveyed in a genius way, right? Like it's it's it's understandable for everybody, it's palatable, it's it's consumable by by everyone, but it's really direct and straightforward without a lot of fluff, right? Like, and that's what I that's what I get whenever I hear I hear that poem.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:45

So check that out. Oh, you have a book for us too, brother.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:49

Oh, yeah. So so the other thing we talked about this a little earlier, but this is a book, um, this is one of the books that um Gil Scott Heron actually wrote. Um, the name of it is The Vulture. Um It's a murder mystery. I think it's about a drug dealer. Honestly, I'm gonna be honest, full disclosure, I just bought this book.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

Yeah, neither one of us have read this book.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:07

I plan to get into it. Um, this was part of my research. So I I ordered this book for myself, and it just so happened to come in time for to discuss it a little bit um on this episode. But Gil Scott Heron actually had two novels that he wrote. He wrote this particular one. I think he was about 19 years old, and it was published by the time he was 20. Um, and he like I think we said this before, but he actually dropped out of Lincoln University for freshman year um just to finish finish this novel. The other, the you know, the profound thing about that is that just the age that he was when he's writing these things. Like, imagine you write a book and you're getting published and you're writing novels at 20 years old, man. I don't know, man. When I think back to myself at 20, I I wasn't ready to write a novel.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

I sure wasn't.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:53

I'm not ready to write a novel yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

I'm not ready to write a novel now. Although I have plenty of life experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:59

I have written a graphic novel, but that's a that's a that's for a different time.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

But but uh interesting life resume.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:07

Yeah, my life resume is is is is pretty pretty is getting better as as a as as a result of stuff like this. Thanks to you, Rance. Like my life my life resume is getting filled up with um with interesting tidbits. But anyway, so so yeah, there's there's Gil Scott Heron's book. Another thing I want I wanted to just really quickly touch on, man, um is that came up in one of his interviews, right? Like, and again, like this was kind of the the media. Um I don't know if they they were nudging him in a certain direction, but he said something pretty profound about um the idea of the West's influence or impact on the rest of the world. And I'm again I'm paraphrasing, I apologize if if I'm butchering what what he actually said.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

You know, I don't I don't I don't want to say that I'm saying this word for word, but we'll call it we c that's why we call it we call it here the power paraphrase.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:58

The power paraphrase. But the gist of it was that that the expectation in the West has had a had a large impact, obviously, on the rest of the world, right? And so and and and and honestly, like if we're being really honest, some of it has been extreme, extremely negative and deadly at times, right? Like for the for the sake of like pulling resources. Um and what he says is that it's it's it's necessary for the West to kind of um be fair and give respect where it's due. Because we have other other like countries in this world are kind of on the rise, right, in terms of their economic power, their scientific power, their technology, and so on, right? And he's saying this like in the 1970s and 80s, right? You know, this is his thinking. So imagine in 2026 how much truer this is becoming, right? And as he's talking to the interviewer, he says that that that at least in in his his opinion, people are not asking for the West to pay for its crimes in terms of of suffering, right? Like nobody wants to see the West suffer exactly, right? Like, like that's not the point. The point is not like for the sins of the father to be rip to be visited upon the sons or anything like that. He's saying that the more important thing is that that we recognize that there's been a negative impact and to start to show respect to these places that are flourishing and and on the rise, even um, even after those negative effects. And then especially, you know, to pay respect to to folks that are are now building themselves up and having like a technological advantage or educational advantage. He's saying that the idea is to start to have some respect and like kind of shed the arrogance, right, and the entitlement that that is kind of synonymous with with us in the West sometimes. Um so I've I just thought that that his again, man, like I I guess the point is like his mastery of delivering like a balanced and sensible and logical and emotionally intelligent message that is helpful. Because the other thing he said that that people should use the tools that they have available to them when it comes to making change. The idea is not that you you're not gonna be sitting at home or or watching your TV set and and and make any sort of change. And also not everybody needs to be out with a picket sign, right? He's saying that you can you can use the tools that are available to you. Whatever platform you have, whatever talents you have could be used towards towards a change in a positive direction, even if it's just talking to your neighbor, even if it's just kind of delivering that message around you to your own household, because it starts with a change.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

Yeah. For the protest. If you think it every no there's no such thing as a small thing when it comes to exactly like and and he and he even talks about voting, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:51

Because sometimes you you know you get down and you're like, oh, well, voting doesn't matter. What does it matter if we're still gonna wind up in the same? But he's saying you should like he's saying in a struggle for change, his basic message is that you should use every tool available to you. You should use voting, you should use writing. He said that that the thing that he found himself most competent to do is to use his art, right? To to to to deliver messages because the revolution starts in the mind, right? If you can if you can communicate these ideas and these thoughts to folks, then that's what is gonna be the catalyst for change. It could mean your friends are in your neighborhood or or or at your job or something, or like just your your immediate circle might be what you have to change first, no matter how small it is, or something. Yeah, everybody has a talent, everybody has a voice, and if if it's nothing but like just like I said, like having a conversation with the people in your household and and and letting them know that you think there's a different way that things could be is something, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:48

Yeah. So go as we always encourage you two guys to do, read, pick up that book. Um there's like there must be like five, six documentaries on them on YouTube. One of the ones I saw was uh The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. I think it was filmed in 2003. He speaks a lot, and his uh his writing buddy Brian Jackson also speaks a lot in it.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

Um and it has like public enemy. He's inspired everybody from uh Kanye West to Public Enemy, Dead Crane, Steph. Yeah, yeah. So check out, you know, read, look up documentaries. And oh, one more thing that I found out that you know who his nephew is, right? His nephew is none other than Mr. Cheeks from The Lost Boys.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:41

Get out of here. No way. Are you kidding?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:44

Yep, Gil Scott Heron is his uncle, yeah, his father's brother.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:48

Yeah, shout out to Mr. Cheeks.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:49

Mr. Cheeks is uh Gil Scott Heron's nephew. So read the book, look at the docs, and listen to the music, man. That pieces of a man. You gotta listen to that pieces of a man album and the other nine, ten albums that he has that he that he has. Um oh before also before I got some shout outs, son, because we have some new international listeners, apparently.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

So shout out to Singapore, Singapore, wow, Bolivia, Bolivia, shout out to Bolivia, you're listening to us in Bolivia?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:25

Yeah, apparently so. They listen to us in Bolivia, Vietnam. Really? Are you serious? Vietnam, Mexico, and Senegal.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:35

Wow, the Gen and Senegal.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:37

Shout out to Singapore, Bolivia, Vietnam, Mexico, and Senegal listening out for us, wherever you at, wherever you are, the Gen Expertise Podcast. I'm probably gonna have to learn how to say thank you in all of these languages apparently. Because then we got we still got the Finland and the and the Brazil, you know. So shout out to you guys and shout out to everybody local who listen to us and support us. And you know what, man? Since we are prolific, since we are prolific. We will be back save next time. Same chair next place. Power to the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

Power to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:25

All right, Peter Gill Scott Heron.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:27

Peace.