Episode 18: All About IEPs and 504s in Public Schools

Join The Urban Schoolhouse for this episode that explores the differences and connections between IEPs (Individualized Education Programs) and 504 Plans in Michigan’s public schools. It breaks down who qualifies for each, what services and accommodations they provide, and how families can navigate the special education process. Co-hosts, Chelsea and Ebony Wysinger explain Michigan-specific policies, evaluation procedures, and parents’ rights, offering practical advice for collaborating with school teams. 

Our opinions/views are our own and not representative of our employer. 

FOLLOW US ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Instagram, TikTok and YouTube: @urbanschoolhousepodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hey, welcome to the Urban Schoolhouse Podcast. It's Ebony Weisinger and Chelsea Weisinger. And today we're gonna be talking about special services.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Special services in the school setting. Okay. So that is IEPs and 504s, a section 504.

unknown 0:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

So why is it called a section 504? Because it's a law.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

It is a law. So so are IEPs, honestly. Well, it's it's part of the law.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

It's actually part of all part of idea, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

All part of idea. What's idea?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Idea. Tell us what IEA is.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Idea is individuals with disabilities, Education Act. So it basically states that students, regardless of any type of disability they may have, have the right to a free, appropriate public education. AKA fake. There you go. So and that's yeah, public in a public setting. Um, you might see some charter schools in some private schools, some entities like that, they might have it. Not, but they're not required like public schools, it's required.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

And the reason why is because of federal funds. Um private parochial schools, they're funded by tuition and archdiocese and things of that nature, and they don't receive federal funds for their students or or pupils um during public school accounting. So that's a major difference. Um and they may still be able to implement some accommodations regardless.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yes. Yeah, that's true. Um, and these are services in all aspects. So that also includes things like transportation, um, things like that. Uh access to it also states that students with disabilities have access to everything that general education students have access to. Um, I believe usually with no cost. The families and yep. So there you go. That's idea, and that is fape, and that's all public schools have to abide by that. Um, it's a federal law. So yeah. Um, so starting off with IEP. So an IEP is an individualized education plan. So basically, it is a curriculum modification. That's how I like to remember the difference between an IEP and a 504 is that for an IEP, you are changing the curriculum to fit um that student's need. Um, so uh when it comes to disabilities, um you have an eligibility for an IEP. So you can be diagnosed with something like a medical diagnosis you could have, but a school diagnosis and school el eligibility are different. So you might have an ADHD diagnosis or autism spectrum disorder diagnosis from a doctor, but you might not qualify or be eligible for that in the school setting for IEP. For an IEP, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

And why okay, so can you explain to our listeners why that would be like an example of when that would be the case?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Um, I have a case like that kind of going on right now. Um, you know, I feel like it's more prevalent for students to um obtain outside diagnoses for autism spectrum disorder. Um, but that doesn't always mean because you have this diagnosis, it doesn't mean it's going to impact your education. That's the big thing is that does this diagnosis impact your ability to access and, you know, retain the curriculum that you are receiving? Sometimes it doesn't. Exactly. Sometimes it does. So it it depends. If it's not impacting the child's education, um, and their behaviors aren't severe, where they're distracting their entire class or something like that, then or if it's distract if their behavior distracts their own learning. Their own learning, yep. Um, or if they need like assistance, uh, which para pros, that's a whole other topic, but you know, that that goes into um fape too. So yeah, that's basically is eligibilities. Um, it doesn't have to be a mental diagnosis either. If we're talking about visual impairments, physical diagnosis, um, physical, visual, hearing, um, traumatic brain injuries, um, a lot, not just ADHD autism. It really covers anything.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Any health problems.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Because it can wind up just being OHI.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Oh, hey, which is other health impairments.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Exactly. So if they can't necessarily pinpoint a certification and there's still a need, it would be qu qualify as OHI.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Oh hi. Um, the main eligibilities that I work with are autism spectrum disorder. I have a lot of OHI. Um, I have a lot of CI, which is cognitive impairments. Um, I have SOD, which is specific learning disability, SLI, which is speech language impairments. Um, I do have a TBI brain injury. I do have um hearing. So some kids are hearing A. E. EI. I don't really I don't see a lot of EI because I'm in elementary. Um, but that's emotion that's emotional impairment.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

I see a lot of EI.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I don't see it. I don't see that in elementary, but yes, EI is also um prevalent too. So how we go about getting these I know how do we how do we start? How does this work? Um, it's a whole process, it's a legal process. Um, and all schools have to look at it. A legal process. It's a legal process because things have to be done a certain amount of time.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

I never looked at it like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

For every step.

unknown 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I don't start telling people that.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

It's a legal process.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Parents need to know that.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

It is like legal, everything has to be done, everything has a deadline. We we're on deadlines, okay? And um, my mom and I were talking about this, I think last week, where if a parent wanted their child to be evaluated for an IEP or to have special services, it used to have to be written. It has to be a note. Now it has they can just be verbal. And then after that, the staff gotta go to work. It's boosting them ground after that. Because I get to it. Because you have 10 days after that to hold the first meeting from 10 uh school or business days. And what's the first meeting called? It's called a read. R-E-E-D. Read. And it stands for review of existing evaluation data. So that is basically the whole team gets together. So it's usually me, the social worker, you've got a psychologist, you got administration, you have the teacher, the parent.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Sometimes a counselor.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Counselor, you have a speech therapist, occupational therapist, maybe a physical therapist if you're looking at that. Um we all come together. I said the parent, yeah. And the student. If they're in high school.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Really? You don't pull students in if they're not high school.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

For elementary, no, but I think high school it's required, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I have had students in my experience.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

In my experience in elementary, a lot of parents don't want their child to even know that they have an IEP, to be honest. Because I've been in meetings where they're like, don't tell my child like they have an IEP. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Interesting. That's interesting, right? Yeah. Yeah. I I I think about I don't know what I would do as a parent, you know, if I had a child with IEP. Like, because also I think that's an opportunity for them to advocate for themselves. So I think it's important when they're older for sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Um I'm for sure thinking that I would have told you if you had an IEP. Because I would have wanted you to know.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Because in case staff want to be funny, because they do try to be funny.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Or in case yeah, like if someone is not giving you your rights. Yeah. I would want to know.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah. Because it's the law, like we said. It is a legal process. Yes. And most parents don't know the law, and therefore they don't empower their kids to know the law.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

So that's why we're here today, ladies and gentlemen. So you guys can understand what the law is. Lightweight, you know, not heavyweight, but enough to go in and get what you need for your kids in the urban school.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Also, I oh, I should have prefaced this and said that these laws I'm talking about is for the state of Michigan. Absolutely. Every state might be a little bit different.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Each state has their own set of laws.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Govern yourself according to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yes, like idea, state, like that. That's a federal law. It's it's yeah, it's a federal law, but each state can be a little bit different. So make sure you check with your state.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Right on.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Yeah. Um yes. Yes. You realize it's a lot of acronyms. It's a lot of acronyms in this situation. A B C, E I, C I, P I, V I, H I, A, S, O, I. It's you're like talking in code. Um, but yeah, so back to a re. So reveal resisting evaluation data. So that's when the whole team gets together, and we basically, well, from my perspective as a social worker, I talk about, I'm talking about their developmental milestones. Um, when were they potty trained? When were they able to walk? Their siblings, what sibling order are they? Are they their only child? Are they the youngest? Are they the middle? Are they the oldest? Whatever, like that, who's in the house, their habits at home, um, their social emotional intelligence at that point. Um, I I scoped that part out. Um, and this is when every sector kind of decides if it's necessary moving forward with testing. Because there's I've been part of reads where after the read, I'm not needed anymore because their issue isn't behavior or emotional. Exactly. So after that, I might say, Yeah, I'm not needed, you know. So the certified. Right. You're kind of seeing, like, are we needed to go further? And um And if not you, then it could be it could be the speech, it could be the psychologist, you know, but maybe I'm not needed anymore. So maybe after the read, I won't appear again, you know. Um I do owe it to the parents that you know we can we can come back to it, nothing's set in stone even after the IEP is done. Um, because then you have IEP amendments where if you need to add or take something away, whatever, then you have an amendment.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Do you write reads?

SPEAKER_00 10:01

I don't. That's um the psychologist.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Okay, yeah, that's what I thought.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Um, so yeah, so that's that's what I try to figure out. So you have 10 days from when the parent requests an evaluation, or a staff can request for there to be an evaluation, but then the parent can accept or deny that request. Even if the staff wants to, if the parent says no, it doesn't happen. Um, so there's also that too. So if a staff member comes to you and says, Hey, I want your kid evaluated, and for whatever reason you don't, you have the right to say no.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Um, and even if you do have your child evaluated, and after the evaluation, you still say no right at any point.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah, at any point you can say no.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Even after the IEP is implemented, you can still say no, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, so yeah, anytime, anytime you want to, basically. Um so you have 10 days to do the read, cool. And then after the read, you have to meet again. Um, and that is going to be called a MET, which is multidisciplinary evaluation team. So that's everybody who tested, evaluated the student. So I have a couple of evaluation tests that I use. The psych does, the speech therapist does, the occupational therapist does. So we literally test the student on whatever we look, we have their scores. So we all have a report drawn up about the results. Um, so my report usually talks about their absences or their attendance. Um I do what an in-class observation, I'll I'll observe them in class in a structured setting. I'll observe them at like lunch or recess or even in the hallway where it's unstructured to see their behaviors and their social interactions. Right. Um, so I'll observe that. Um sometimes I'll do a teacher kind of interview, I'll do a parent interview, and then I have my um evaluation that I did and the results. Um, so that's what the social work report usually looks like, and then I'll say, you know, because at the read, you have a list of suspected eligibilities. So then at the end of my report, I usually just say, like, oh, you know, I suggest whatever eligibility the whole team, you know, because usually the team kind of meets beforehand and see if we agree on what the eligibility should be. Um, so then you have a MET. So usually the MET and the IEP go together. So based off of our findings. Yes, off the findings. That's when you create the IEP. So in the IEP, you have a plaf, another acronym, which is present level of academic, academic achievement. Okay. Something like that, and functioning performance. I forgot. We got the plaf. So you got baseline data. You got the plaph, which is like the baseline data of the student. Then you go into your goals. So we have annual goals because if you have IEP, you have to go over it every single year, and then every three years the child gets re-evaluated.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Insert unless the parent requests an IEP, which you could do at any time, and yes, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Yes. But if you're just going by standard. Standard. Um, so yeah, I got programs and services. So I'll put so so-and-so will have social work services direct. So that means I'm coming to them directly. I'm pulling them or I'm pushing into their classroom, whatever it may be. So it might be usually I do like 10 or 30 minutes, and then it'll be like two to three times a month. Um as social work. As a social worker, yeah. So that's usually what I do.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Question about what about the other um professionals that might take up um the IEP? If it's not social work, like speech pathologists or whatever, do they follow those same type of of uh or do you not know like how they the services, the service time?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah. It depends by I think how severe the child's needs are.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

So they determine that at the time. I feel like that's what I'm trying to flush out to the parent, is that when they are in these meetings, they have to really advocate for their kids about service time.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

What I like to do, especially with my speech therapist, I work really closely with her. A lot of times we'll pull kids together. If they have speech and social work, we might pull them in a little group of two or three. We can hit them at one time. Um, I have so there's two special ed classrooms um in my building. I have one of them. I have third through fifth grade. So I'll come in and do a whole class lesson and I hit all my kids at once. You know what I mean? Smart. Yeah, so I I come in every Wednesday morning and I hit all of them. I might do a whole group thing, or I might kind of pull them one by one the classroom. But that's the agreement that like us in the teacher.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

I like that because at least the kids they know they look forward to probably seeing you in their class that day.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Well, they're mad. They they miss coming to my office. They're like, Are you gonna give me a I didn't came here so I can't come to you? They're kind of mad that they don't come to my office anymore. Um, because that's what I used to do last year. But yeah, that's basically it. Um, yeah, you have the IEP every year. You got a three-year evening.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

We even a modification of the curriculum. And if you don't know what that means, can you get a little breakdown of a curriculum modification, like example?

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Um, a lot of the examples I see at work are repeat and rephrase, um, audio text, voice text, they might have more time. Um extended time. Like I know for my special ed classroom, they do have to do standardized testing still, but it's different. It's catered to cognitively impaired uh students. So for general education, you might have to write, they might be able to draw, you know, draw a picture for their answer or something like that. Um, yeah, basically stuff like that, more breaks, a lot more visuals, and it just depends on the disability. Yeah, a lot more visuals, um sensory aids, absolutely, pair pros, which a para pro is a whole other stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

So that's like a human being following your child around.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yes. So so in my I have like two or three kiddos that have a one-on-one, so that means that adult is like specifically assigned to that student. And usually behaviors have to be uh moderate to severe for you to be able to get a one-on-one pair pro. Doesn't mean you can't advocate for it, but usually that's you know, that's what one-on-ones are for. Exactly. I'm a special at classrooms, period. There's usually a couple of pair pros that are just like eggs in the classroom for the whole class. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

But let me just say, the kids that have one-on-ones, they seem to be embarrassed by that, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Not at elementary, you know. Well, you had that elementary. Um yeah, middle school, yeah. I can see that.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

I had one student who had a one-on-one in elementary and he was in over, so he used to run away from her too.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Oh. Yeah. I feel like what I also see kind of now is um the the one downside on Paris, I will say it is that some kids kind of uh begin to have learned helplessness because their pairs do everything, and um, it's like the para isn't the accommodation, the para administers the accommodations. You know? So it's like they're not gonna have a pair for every, they gotta learn a little bit of intuition. And the para is supposed to be the accommodation, correct? No, say it again then they're supposed to administer the accommodations.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

So how does a parra administer the com uh the accommodation by watching or by reminding or by giving the accommodation?

SPEAKER_00 17:47

So that might be visuals, that might be I just I think what we're kind of no issue because that's how that's the thing. I feel like more paras should be like trained to deal to deal with behaviors. You don't think so?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

I just don't know. I'm just thinking and I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Like like behaviors, like what do you mean by behaviors though? Eloping, um yeah, just they should be able to know how to deal with that. Eloping.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yeah, and I'm gonna tell you how they deal with it. Okay. On a middle school level, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Oh, eloping is running away, by the way. Right. Which is very common with children with um autism.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

They like to run away. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

They want to be free, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

They do run.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

And a lot of times, in my experience, they'll look at you, wait for you to look back at them.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

And they really do like it.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

And then they'll run away. And you can't chase them because they think it's a game.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

And then they'll hide.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

I I haven't dealt with hiding.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

I have.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

I haven't dealt with hiding.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

So basically, what I observe is the para running around chasing.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

But also safety, because also I have kids that have pika. Um, pica is I learned that's usually prevalent when you have really low iron, and it's when you eat non-edible um items. So I have kids who have severe, you know, needs. Um my experience, it's been a lot of uh sticky things like tape. I have uh I had a kid that um like she anything sticky, like like like a command strip, she'll take out the wall and put it in her mouth.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Um so her para is to make sure she doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Well, she doesn't have a one-on-one. But I'm just saying, but she's in the she's a special like classroom though. Yeah. Um but if she had a para, her para would be Yeah, but like there's the one they're the ones that make sure she doesn't eat the things on the wall. Yeah, like redirecting that behavior to something else. So she could still get that sensory input, but it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

I guess my issue with that is I have these paras walking around my school who are there for the behavior aspect of the student and they have no idea how to address the behaviors of the student.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Even if it's not pre- I think that's prevalent, though. I think that's prevalent.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

It's like you're here for me because I do not sit still, I do not stop talking, I run around the school and I do all these things, and I need a para. But my paras is just watching me do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah, I I think one thing, I think paras definitely need to be trained, agile. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

So as a parent, advocate that if your child has to have a para or needs a para, then make sure the para is up to par and doing a service to your child, not just watching your child not learn.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

And in my experience, a lot of paras are used in the general education, like all the one-on-ones that I have, is because their child's in is in the the genetic setting.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

So a parapro, I don't know that we said it, but a paraprofessional is the whole name. A paraprofessional is an aide.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Basically.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

That's it. Uh, you know, they used to call them the teacher's aides. Um, but they are usually in classrooms where a lot of eyes are needed. And sometimes a paraprofessional is hired to do a one-on-one if a student needs that much attention.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

If a student needs a because I actually do a lot of work with paras, um, because as part of my job I do BIPs, FBA is in BIPs. An FBA is a functional behavior assessment, a BIP is a behavior intervention plan. Um, so I do those, and that's kind of the start to a student getting um a para because and this is where it's kind of yeah, because it can be a bit scary.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

You probably need a para.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yeah, it's kind of scary because the first part to an FBA, so FBA comes first. The first part is I basically have to go to this teacher who already has a million things to do, and I'm like, hey, you also have to have to take data on this kid.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Taking data is something else.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

That's a whole that's a whole other thing. So basically, by taking data, I like to do ABC data more acronyms. A B C, so that's antecedent, behavior, consequence. So, what's happening before the behavior? What's the actual Behavior, what's happening after? So they have to track that. So after they track that for about four to six weeks, then I create the bit which I'm putting all this data. I like to make pretty little graphs and I put it all in data so I can kind of the goal is to see a pattern of behavior. Um, are there specific triggers that are happening? So I had one kid, his trigger was really high pitch noises. When that happened, oh, it was bad.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

He he would be on 1000.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

So the bit would be planning.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yeah, so now so we had a plan. So when the announcements came along, we had a plan for him, you know, or the fire drill. Fire drill in the hallway. We had a whole plan because we knew that his trigger was loud noises. His sensitivity. His sensitivity, his sensory. It was so much because the kids with autism, their senses are way more heightened than ours. Um, so they're going through a lot, they're like calling out of their skin a lot of the time. Um, so I figure out what's the trigger, what can we do to sue them? If they get escalated, how do you bring them back down? Um, and usually I call the parent and ask um what do they do at home for de-escalation, things like that, so we can do the same things here. What are their motivators? Are they food motivated? Are they, you know, sticker motivated? What are the favorite characters? You know, like what can I do to make things, you know, better for them?

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

So that's what I I do a lot of that. So then I do the FBA, then I do the VIP. Um, I do reports for paras. Like, does this child need somebody in arm's like length of them at all times? Like, is it that deep, or can they be a little far away? Because people usually lopers, they need to be at arm's length.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah, so they won't run away. Alright, so let's do a transition. Yeah. And honestly, I'm glad that's a lot. It is a lot. We didn't even really cover everything. We did cover everything, but I feel like we're covering enough to let people know what to expect from the process. So we're gonna transition into section 504. We mentioned it at the beginning. And I'm glad that you took the majority of the time. Yes, because it's not as an involved process as an IEP. There are some differences. Um, the major difference is, well, one similarity, I'll say this. One similarity is that they are both covered under IDEA.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

So ideally, they are both the law. Once a plan is put into place, it must be followed by the school district, by the teachers. Or anyone that comes out of the city. It has to be with fidelity. Fidelity, meaning that you can even prove that you have provided the services. Um, and honestly, as a parent, that's one of the things that you must also um use fidelity in, making sure that those uh accommodations or curriculum accommodations are being made. So basically, it it's the same way to start up a section 504 plan. That's what we call it. You can get a 504 at any grade level, just like you could with uh the IEPs. Oh, side note, sorry. Side note.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

You can get IEP from ages three to 21. That's how long it goes. I'm so glad you said that.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

It's like you just read my mind because I know we had not mentioned that. So you can even keep those plans in place while you're in college. And um so the similarity is the law aspect, the aspect of it's not a choice of the school district, of the staff member, if they don't like it, it's not their choice, it's their obligation. So um the process is a little different because the criteria are a little different. With a 504, you don't have to really prove anything.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, IEP had to prove it.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

You don't really have to prove a lot. And I love that for our students. Yeah, because we can accept more 504s and we can accept them quicker. And therefore, I think that the 504 process for that reason is a little bit easier for parents to go through because it's not as much paperwork, it's not as much time, and it's not as though a student who we suspect has a learning uh impediment of any kind, um, it wouldn't stop them from getting services pretty rapidly.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

So going into differences, it would have to be like um not the curriculum modification, but accommodations. That's the major word for a Section 504 plan. So how you would get the accommodations would be to request it could be verbal or in writing, the same as the IEP. You can tell that to an administrator, a counselor, or a teacher that you would like accommodations. Accommodations for 504s are very similar to those of IEPs, but sometimes it can be accommodations for things that have nothing to do with learning disabilities. And I really believe that that's the major difference. Most of the qualifications or qualifiers that Chelsea mentioned were dealing with uh academic um to restructure the academic process of the to modify. But in this case, it doesn't uh restructure. What it does is it add accommodations. So after you request, we will set up a meeting. Actually, it's usually me, the counselor. Um, if it's not the counselor, it's probably the principal or the assistant principal of the school. And we sit down with, I usually get two teachers. I get a math teacher and an ELA teacher, and I'll sit there with the assistant principal, um, it the dean if we have behavior problems, and also myself, the parent, and the student. The student is always uh a part of a 504 for me. I never leave the student out. Um, I don't interview my students, but I do have a student questionnaire that I send with the student to fill out and a parent questionnaire that I send with the parent to fill out to bring to the meeting, and I also send teacher input form so the teacher can give me indications of what's going on in the classroom. So I know what the grade is when I'm at the meeting, I know what the attendance is, I know what the behavior is, and that's the data that I usually use. Um, if we're dealing with ADHD, which is the majority of my 504s, um, then usually we're doing modific uh accommodations like breaks.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Longer time for tests, maybe extended time for tests, um, but not all the time in the world.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

And I want to put that out there for the parent. You can't have all the time in the world. They get a little bit more time. You get a little bit more time. And if you wasteful, if you're wasteful with the time, I see the teacher scaling back on the time.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah, when I was in school, sometimes you have like a quieter room, like a different room you could take your test in. Like some kids would leave.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

That's called the alternative setting.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

So if you need that, say that. Also, like you said, with testing, and that not just with standardized testing.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

No, any test, any test.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Some kids have any tests or quizzes. Some teachers reduce homework or reduce the amount of work that is, and that's kind of a curriculum modification, but they don't reduce it for the uh point purpose of they break it down into smaller chunks so that it's more digestible to the child. So basically, a 504 is like not changing the curriculum, but kind of giving a child a boost so that they can be at the same level as their counterparts. Like um, I've seen that actual picture out there in the world of a regular student and a like a fence, and they can see over the fence. And the 504 student is given a stool, yeah, and now they can also see over the fence. So it's something like that. Um, they could get tests read aloud, um, and they can also get things repeated, like you said. Um, but we usually, I know I usually deal with about four to five uh accommodations because it's a lot for teachers to keep up with, yeah, along with other things that they need to do in their classroom. So it's not reasonable to give them a lengthy list of accommodations. Oh, the best accommodation to for ADHD is to have a student have like uh preferred seating, preferred seating where they're in front of the teacher and have less distractions behind them. But other things that could qualify your student for a 504 is even if they break a leg. Say, for instance, you break your leg and you're in a cast for six to eight weeks and you can't go up and down the stairs, you can get a 504. Um, and that will give an accommodation like you can um get extra time in the hallway to navigate between your classes, you can um uh leave the classroom early. Um, you won't be have uh to dealing with tardies. You can get a pal to walk with you, carry your books, carry your bag, depending on what's going on with you. It could also be like a uh diabetes. I've had kids with diabetes have 504s where they have to have snacks whenever they need their snacks on hand, and so you have to have a plan for their snack. If the student has a doctor, you want to have all that contained within your 504 and the accommodations to suit this child, like they don't have to ask to use the bathroom, they may simply get up and quietly leave. Um, and then giving them time allotted throughout the day to take a medication if they have to take a medication or check their blood sugar throughout the school day. Um, all those types of accommodations, also with things like asthma. Now, the reason why they qualify is because they impede on the child's learning. If you don't know, that's the key in everything. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

It has to impede.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

It has to impede on their learning. And it has to, in the in terms of 504, it has to be a significant um you know, impediment on your learning. So if you can't walk, obviously for gym, you need accommodations of some sort. If you can't see and you need to sit closer to the board, or you need the materials printed off and handed to you. Because teacher notes can also be provided as an accommodation. So there is a myriad. It's of it's books and books out there about accommodations for 504s and IPs. So many times they're very similar.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

It's all on the internet. If if you're in Michigan, go on mars.gov. So it's M-A-R-S-E.gov.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Will we be able to link that?

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yes, I believe, I believe I already did. But um But yes, maybe so we'll play it back. Every everything is on there. Um, also, I don't know about 504s, but for IEP meeting, each pairing is a copy of procedural safeguards.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Absolutely. Every time.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Every time. You can deny it again. Like once you get it once, usually parents don't want it to be.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

You have to sign for it. You can't really deny it.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Well, well, they can they can. I've seen it, but you just have to say that you're saying you don't want it.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Basically, you're saying you're aware of what's going on and aware of your rights. It's something that you actually need.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Yeah, usually though, because it's a really hefty packet. Usually when parents get it once, they don't want it over and over. Because the but we have to print out every single time and we have to offer it every single time, but usually they only want the heavy hefty packet once.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

I want to say one more thing. I bring in test scores to my meetings as well. I say attendance, behavior, and all those things, but I bring in their um I ready scores, beginning the year, I-Rady scores.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Usually the teacher does that for in mind. Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

I have the teacher bring them and we discuss based off that in the grades. I usually always grant a 504. Only way I won't grant a 504, and the only time I never did, is be if the student I know is able, but doesn't. One time I had to take a 504 away. So that was why there was no work being done. So we did we had to deny the 504. And then you give a copy to all the teachers, and they have to abide by it. And it's a yearly meeting, just like uh IEP. And unless you call for a meeting, and that's pretty much it. You guys can call anytime. Yeah. That is it. Yeah. And then you, you know, your student is able to see above the gate.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

The wonderful world of idea. I love it. Yeah, it's a lot. I remember when I first started my job, I was literally reading Mars word for word because I was just like, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 34:50

It's a lot. And if you have questions, just call the office.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Don't and don't think that people on the street are telling you the thing. Just bring that question in the office.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Please.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Please. Yes. But that is all we have for today. Yes. It's a lot of good information. Very, very fruitful information.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

But it's really, really good.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah. Um, we have social media. Yeah, play it back. Go over and over. We have social media. What's the social media? So Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at the Urban Schoolhouse Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

And share. Should people be sharing?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah. So don't just listen. Share. Share with your friends. Share with your mommy. Share with your daddy.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

All right. We will see you guys next time on the Urban Schoolhouse where school is cool.